(Almost) vertical thumb cluster?

[jerry_c]

I've been designing in my head a ergonomic gaming keypad. I currently have Razer Nostromo, but it's thumb buttons are in wrong angle for my hand.

I've investigated this thing quite a bit and there seems to be many different versions of the thumb cluster. ErgoDox is completely flat and ErgoGP has lowered it a bit. Then there's angled versions, for example ErgoDox mods like this and completely custom builds like this. But none of these have vertical thumb cluster.

I haven't done any physical tests yet, just flexed my fingers trying to understand where would be the best place for thumb buttons. When I relax my hand, my thumb is almost perpendicular to other fingers. If this is the relaxed position, shouldn't it be the most natural and best place for thumb cluster? Or is there something I haven't figured out?

To add another point to this, in most mice thumb buttons are usually vertical. Heck, Razer Naga has 12 vertical thumb buttons.

Edit: With vertical thumb buttons, the switches for those would locate somewhere below the index finger.

[kurplop]

I've never used a keyboard with vertical thumb switches so my opinions are not  based on empirical findings but I'll put in my two cents.

I think you need to be careful when reinventing the wheel; often times, the established layouts survived for reasons that go beyond familiarity. I think the layouts you sited work because they angled the thumb clusters to the degree they thought best after physically testing the arraignment. Oobly's board is also very small. I wonder if it would be harder to reach the far keys if it were bigger? It seems that the thumb's different striking angle may commit the hand's position to one spot. This could explain why the vertical switches work well on the mouse.

I've moved around the physical layout in some of my builds and I certainly wouldn't discourage it, in fact, I'd like to see what you come up with.

Also, welcome to GH.

 

[jacobolus]

My personal opinion is that vertical thumb keys seem very nice for modifier keys, but perhaps not as effective for keys like spacebar, tab, enter, delete, etc. But YMMV.

[Input Nirvana]

oookkkkaayy...

Not to complicate this BUT....
I understand and agree with your thumb thoughts.

My thoughts have evolved to the idea of a "half glove wire frame" with multiple inputs per finger. An almagram of Datahand, Alphagrip and ergo to the max, no compromise with more current tech.

So expand your thoughts and post stuff to get feedback if you're looking for ideas or support.

[islisis]

my feeling is that you've touched on the largest outstanding issue in ergonomic keyboard design.
oobly's thumb cluster looks great and he has commented how it compares favourably to flat horizontal layouts.

flat layouts have their advantages like convenience when out of the home position, not to mention portability, but the bulk of keyboard usage would benefit from a tented thumb keywell. i do think it will be a far-off day in the future when the market is at liberty to produce a sculpted finger + tented thumb keywell design, but i wish you the best of luck in you experimentation!

[jerry_c]

Alright, I made this quick sketch:

There thumb cluster is perpendicular with main cluster along both axes. After I made it, two things became obvious: 1) When the keypad is properly tented, thumb cluster won't be vertical anymore. 2) Completely perpendicular thumb cluster won't be ergonomic.

I have to buy some switches, keycaps, heavy paper and start prototyping.

[davkol]

I find the kind of motion required to press buttons on Microsoft Trackball Explorer more or less optimal, as opposed to flat designs (ErgoDox, big ambidextrous trackballs, Logitech Marble FX).

[Oobly]

I agree in the principal here. In this pic, you can see that the upper thumb buttons are almost perpendicular to the main plate:



I couldn't angle them more while keeping them in close enough to be really comfortable to use due to the switch bottoms hitting each other. I'm sure with ML switches this could work, but with MX you can't place them close enough. Even the current positions become awkward to use with SA profile caps on. With Cherry profile caps they work nicely, though The pic shows the OEM caps I initially designed it with and they are just acceptable.

The second row of thumb keys is angled primarily to bring the keytops in closer together so the thumb resting position places it on all four keys at the same time and it an easy movement to press any of them. I use space, backspace, Enter, shift, Fn, Tab, Ctrl and Alt on my thumb keys happily and have no issues with either held in keys like Shift and Fn or tapped keys like space and Enter.

Please go ahead and prototype this, I'm very interested in your results.

[jerry_c]

I thought as well that switches will get in each other's way. In fact in the first sketch I had to remove one switch to make it feasible.

I just realised that at least when I play with WASD keys, my left thumb is completely below bottom row, pressing Space and Alt. This thumb position might be different with proper home row style touch typing, but I can't say because my style is all but proper

This idea in mind I made a new sketch:



The red button is W. When the thumb cluster is positioned like this, even this completely perpendicular positioning seems natural. This probably works better with gaming than regular typing, since hand position changes less.

I'll definitely prototype this when I have time and all the parts, probably within next two months.

[PieterGen]

ANd yet.... you know how bass players 'slap'  the bass?


You see how the thumb is roughly in the same plane as the fingers. This way you have:
- a lot of force. Your thumb is straight, you have a 'lever', and you can use the rotation of your underarm, not only of the thumb muscles themselves
- precision. Bass players need precision, you must hit the right string under the right angle at exactly the right time.

So, using thumbs in the same plane as the fingers is very good for HITTING, but not so good for HOLDING.

Now look at gripping.


This is ideal when you want to hold things. Like, maybe, holding a modifier 

So I'd say that perpendicular thumb keys are good for modifiers that need holding, like ctrl, alt, FN, Shift. But not so good for Space, arrows and so on.
   

[jerry_c]

Good information, thanks! I didn't know about slap bass, I had to watch a tutorial video to get the gist of it.

Especially those two grip types, power grip and precision grip, were interesting. After holding some objects and trying different grips, it's clear that power grip lives up to its name.

But I disagree about your idea of using precision grip only for modifiers. As I see it, power grip would be better for modifiers since those have to be pressed for a longer time. And precision grip should have more than enough force to press a keyboard button, since those have actuation force somewhere between 0.5-1 Newtons.

And in gaming situation, if for example jump is assigned to a thumb button, I at least presume that precision grip would be better for repeated and accurately timed jumping (aka bunny hopping).

[Data]

[Oobly]

It doesn't seem to matter much when pressing keyboard switches of 80g or less bottom out force. You don't have to hold the modifiers for very extended periods (about 10 seconds at a time is pretty much the longest) and in my experience both hits and holds are great with the almost vertical keys. My Shift and Fn are on the left upper ones, Space and Enter on the right hand one. If it really mattered I would move the modifiers to the lower rows and have the tab, backspace, space and enter on the upper ones. I may actually try that, perhaps it will reduce the typing effort by some miniscule amount.

[jacobolus]

Grips, per se, aren’t really relevant to keyboard use, but would be relevant for mice, knobs, sliders, throttles, joysticks, pens, and similar devices. The distinction between the “precision” and “power” grips is not the direction of thumb movement. Grips are about opposition. Opposition between thumb and fingertips is a “precision” grip, whereas opposition using the palm is a “power” grip. A precision grip is how you hold chopsticks, a paintbrush, a fencing foil, a chef’s knife, etc., and by combining arm, hand, and finger movements, it’s possible to make very accurate tiny movements. A power grip is how you hold a cleaver, a large hammer, a baseball bat, etc., where you mainly need strength and large arm movements. When you open a stuck glass jar lid, you switch from a power grip to initially unstick the lid, and then finish unscrewing it with a precision grip.

Anyhow, slap bass is a somewhat different kind of motion from pressing a spacebar. Slap bass players keep their thumbs mostly rigid, and rotate their forearm to get the slap. It’s possible to use forearm rotation to press a spacebar but in practice most people type space by abducting (and maybe slightly flexing) their thumbs.