Author Topic: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth  (Read 9132 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline trauring

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 94
    • off on a tangent
New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« on: Sun, 10 May 2015, 01:50:13 »
An interesting new single-board computer that costs $9, called C.H.I.P.:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1598272670/chip-the-worlds-first-9-computer

It has B/G/N WiFi and Bluetooth 4.0, as well as both a USB port and a micro USB port. It has 4GB flash storage, 512MB of RAM and a 1 GHz processor. The board itself connects to composite video using a special cable, but it will have VGA and HDMI shields available later. It has "8 digital GPIOs, one PWM pin, SPI, TWI (I2C), UART, USB, MIPI-CSI, Parallel LCD output, touchpanel input, and a whole bunch of power rails in and out." Runs on 5V power, which can be supplied via a pin or via the micro USB port.

The whole design is open-source. Seems there could be some interesting projects made around it. It says "Realtek 2-in-1 Bluetooth 4.0 + WiFi B/G/N" which I assume is the green sub-board. I wonder if that's something that can be sourced separately and used in a keyboard design.

Offline rowdy

  • HHKB Hapster
  • * Erudite Elder
  • Posts: 21175
  • Location: melbourne.vic.au
  • Missed another sale.
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 10 May 2015, 02:47:27 »
They seem to have reached their goal ... "$473,327 pledged of $50,000 goal" ... er ... somewhat ... :eek:
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

Ị̸͚̯̲́ͤ̃͑̇̑ͯ̊̂͟ͅs̞͚̩͉̝̪̲͗͊ͪ̽̚̚ ̭̦͖͕̑́͌ͬͩ͟t̷̻͔̙̑͟h̹̠̼͋ͤ͋i̤̜̣̦̱̫͈͔̞ͭ͑ͥ̌̔s̬͔͎̍̈ͥͫ̐̾ͣ̔̇͘ͅ ̩̘̼͆̐̕e̞̰͓̲̺̎͐̏ͬ̓̅̾͠͝ͅv̶̰͕̱̞̥̍ͣ̄̕e͕͙͖̬̜͓͎̤̊ͭ͐͝ṇ̰͎̱̤̟̭ͫ͌̌͢͠ͅ ̳̥̦ͮ̐ͤ̎̊ͣ͡͡n̤̜̙̺̪̒͜e̶̻̦̿ͮ̂̀c̝̘̝͖̠̖͐ͨͪ̈̐͌ͩ̀e̷̥͇̋ͦs̢̡̤ͤͤͯ͜s͈̠̉̑͘a̱͕̗͖̳̥̺ͬͦͧ͆̌̑͡r̶̟̖̈͘ỷ̮̦̩͙͔ͫ̾ͬ̔ͬͮ̌?̵̘͇͔͙ͥͪ͞ͅ

Offline njbair

  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 10 May 2015, 10:15:16 »
Only 8 GPIO, not enough for any keyboard larger than 16 keys. Kind of a shame, it would be awesome to build a Linux-powered keyboard. Imagine programming your board by plugging a monitor into it!

I suppose at that clock speed you could probably use shift registers and still achieve a 1KHz polling rate.

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline berserkfan

  • Posts: 2135
  • Location: Not CONUS Not CONUS Not CONUS Not CONUS
  • changing diapers is more fun than model f assembly
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 10 May 2015, 12:52:06 »
I know once again I am exhibiting my ignorance, but this computer has 512Mb RAM but isn't enough for any keyboard larger than 16 keys? I don't understand! It looks 100x as powerful as the teensy, but can't do what the teensy can do?
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline trauring

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 94
    • off on a tangent
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 10 May 2015, 12:57:41 »
It only has 8 digital connections, which means if you hook it up to a traditional keyboard matrix you can only support 16 keys (4 rows x 4 columns). In order to support a full keyboard you'd need to use something like an I/O expander chip which adds connections via I2C (like what is done between the two hands of the ErgoDox), or Shift Registers. The Teensy 2.0, for example, has 25 digital connections, which could support 150 keys (10x15 matrix) without any additional hardware.

Offline trauring

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 94
    • off on a tangent
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 10 May 2015, 13:24:52 »
Sorry, 156 keys with a 12x13 matrix would be the max I think.

Offline GL1TCH3D

  • Posts: 1117
  • Location: Quebec, Canada
  • Audiophile, tea lover and now keyboard hugger!
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 10 May 2015, 14:54:27 »
Sorry, 156 keys with a 12x13 matrix would be the max I think.

Unless you find a way to run a 12.5x12.5 matrix for a 156.25 key total, I would be inclined to say 156 is the max XD

Offline rowdy

  • HHKB Hapster
  • * Erudite Elder
  • Posts: 21175
  • Location: melbourne.vic.au
  • Missed another sale.
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 10 May 2015, 15:11:26 »
That's if you wanted to use it instead of a Teensy, for example.

You can still connect a conventional keyboard via USB though.
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

Ị̸͚̯̲́ͤ̃͑̇̑ͯ̊̂͟ͅs̞͚̩͉̝̪̲͗͊ͪ̽̚̚ ̭̦͖͕̑́͌ͬͩ͟t̷̻͔̙̑͟h̹̠̼͋ͤ͋i̤̜̣̦̱̫͈͔̞ͭ͑ͥ̌̔s̬͔͎̍̈ͥͫ̐̾ͣ̔̇͘ͅ ̩̘̼͆̐̕e̞̰͓̲̺̎͐̏ͬ̓̅̾͠͝ͅv̶̰͕̱̞̥̍ͣ̄̕e͕͙͖̬̜͓͎̤̊ͭ͐͝ṇ̰͎̱̤̟̭ͫ͌̌͢͠ͅ ̳̥̦ͮ̐ͤ̎̊ͣ͡͡n̤̜̙̺̪̒͜e̶̻̦̿ͮ̂̀c̝̘̝͖̠̖͐ͨͪ̈̐͌ͩ̀e̷̥͇̋ͦs̢̡̤ͤͤͯ͜s͈̠̉̑͘a̱͕̗͖̳̥̺ͬͦͧ͆̌̑͡r̶̟̖̈͘ỷ̮̦̩͙͔ͫ̾ͬ̔ͬͮ̌?̵̘͇͔͙ͥͪ͞ͅ

Offline njbair

  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 10 May 2015, 15:34:22 »
I know once again I am exhibiting my ignorance, but this computer has 512Mb RAM but isn't enough for any keyboard larger than 16 keys? I don't understand! It looks 100x as powerful as the teensy, but can't do what the teensy can do?
What everyone else had already said. But, without knowing the specifics of the processor, it probably has capacity for at least 25 GPIO pins but they may have been left off the board for cost/size reasons.

The Raspberry Pi, for example, has 17 GPIO pins. Enough for a 72-key board. But it's too big to fit inside a keyboard case.

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline E TwentyNine

  • Posts: 884
    • Some of My Keyboards
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 10 May 2015, 16:20:57 »
The Raspberry Pi, for example, has 17 GPIO pins. Enough for a 72-key board. But it's too big to fit inside a keyboard case.

Says who?



:)
Daily driver: SSK or Tenkeyless IBM AT
1984 Model M Industrial Prototype ⌨ 1992 Black Oval Industrial SSK ⌨ 1982 5251 Beam Spring ⌨ 89 Key "SSK" ⌨ M13 triplets

Offline njbair

  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 10 May 2015, 16:23:57 »
The Raspberry Pi, for example, has 17 GPIO pins. Enough for a 72-key board. But it's too big to fit inside a keyboard case.

Says who?

Show Image


:)
Doesn't count. Most other keyboards can fit inside that case.

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline Findecanor

  • Posts: 5037
  • Location: Koriko
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 10 May 2015, 17:47:14 »
What everyone else had already said. But, without knowing the specifics of the processor, it probably has capacity for at least 25 GPIO pins but they may have been left off the board for cost/size reasons.
... and because the design isn't finalized. It is not supposed to ship to backers until a year from now.
The pins also include a parallel LCD interface.

Offline Koren

  • Posts: 133
  • Location: France
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 10 May 2015, 18:16:05 »
Only 8 GPIO, not enough for any keyboard larger than 16 keys. Kind of a shame, it would be awesome to build a Linux-powered keyboard. Imagine programming your board by plugging a monitor into it!

I suppose at that clock speed you could probably use shift registers and still achieve a 1KHz polling rate.
That's not a valid argument... Just use a 16-bit shift register (e.g. 74165) and you should easily be able to drive 100+ keys. I fail to see how you can solder one hundred keys and as many diods and consider adding a shift register anything more than a "detail".

Yes, a teensy has enough IOs to directly drive the matrix, but that's just one way to do it, and it's usually not faster than a shift register (the teensy just emulate a shift register)


Not sure a full-fledge linux computer is a better "brain" for a keyboard than a teensy, but there's really no difficulty to built a keyboard virtually as big as you want with 8 GPIO...

Offline berserkfan

  • Posts: 2135
  • Location: Not CONUS Not CONUS Not CONUS Not CONUS
  • changing diapers is more fun than model f assembly
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 10 May 2015, 21:46:32 »
I know once again I am exhibiting my ignorance, but this computer has 512Mb RAM but isn't enough for any keyboard larger than 16 keys? I don't understand! It looks 100x as powerful as the teensy, but can't do what the teensy can do?
What everyone else had already said. But, without knowing the specifics of the processor, it probably has capacity for at least 25 GPIO pins but they may have been left off the board for cost/size reasons.

The Raspberry Pi, for example, has 17 GPIO pins. Enough for a 72-key board. But it's too big to fit inside a keyboard case.

Not satisfied with showing you half my ignorance I will proceed to show you the rest by wondering aloud why we can't use that shift register or whatever other people are talking about, and connect to this little computer. I imagine it is just a tiny board with a chip on it and tons of I/O pads like the teensy, no? Production cost of this thing shouldn't be that great?

Teensy has the big disadvantage of offering insufficient IO if you're doing direct wiring on a fullsize board and LEDs. I imagine if a shift register thing existed, it would resolve the problems normally solved by the teensy++, and still give you tons of other great functions. With 512mb memory I think you can store every keypress you ever made in your life. (That's meaningless to normal people, but we're geeks here, so let's not talk about normal behaviour)  :thumb:
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline njbair

  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 10 May 2015, 22:08:44 »
I know once again I am exhibiting my ignorance, but this computer has 512Mb RAM but isn't enough for any keyboard larger than 16 keys? I don't understand! It looks 100x as powerful as the teensy, but can't do what the teensy can do?
What everyone else had already said. But, without knowing the specifics of the processor, it probably has capacity for at least 25 GPIO pins but they may have been left off the board for cost/size reasons.

The Raspberry Pi, for example, has 17 GPIO pins. Enough for a 72-key board. But it's too big to fit inside a keyboard case.

Not satisfied with showing you half my ignorance I will proceed to show you the rest by wondering aloud why we can't use that shift register or whatever other people are talking about, and connect to this little computer. I imagine it is just a tiny board with a chip on it and tons of I/O pads like the teensy, no? Production cost of this thing shouldn't be that great?

Teensy has the big disadvantage of offering insufficient IO if you're doing direct wiring on a fullsize board and LEDs. I imagine if a shift register thing existed, it would resolve the problems normally solved by the teensy++, and still give you tons of other great functions. With 512mb memory I think you can store every keypress you ever made in your life. (That's meaningless to normal people, but we're geeks here, so let's not talk about normal behaviour)  :thumb:

You absolutely could use a shift register or serial I/O expander. I even mentioned shift registers in my original reply. Either option would cost less than a few dollars. But you're completely starting from scratch, and I personally have no idea how easy it would be to port any of the existing DIY firmwares to Linux.

Regarding 512MB memory, I think you are confusing memory and storage. The CHIP is actually supposed to have 4GB of storage. Some of that would be taken up by the OS (Linux), but the rest could absolutely be used for key logging or whatever else you can dream up.

The real killer feature of this board over existing AVR/ARM firmwares, would be built-in Bluetooth. And it's cheaper than a Teensy.

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline trauring

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 94
    • off on a tangent
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 10 May 2015, 22:58:31 »
My original thought was a Bluetooth keyboard that could have a built in web server that could be accessed via wifi that could allow the keyboard to be configured. And yeah, it's about half the price of a Teensy.

Offline berserkfan

  • Posts: 2135
  • Location: Not CONUS Not CONUS Not CONUS Not CONUS
  • changing diapers is more fun than model f assembly
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 11 May 2015, 00:41:45 »
My original thought was a Bluetooth keyboard that could have a built in web server that could be accessed via wifi that could allow the keyboard to be configured. And yeah, it's about half the price of a Teensy.

I'm just amazed. That's not even Moore's law. It's way above Moore's law!

That said I think the firmware thing is easy to solve (at least for me.) Just be patient, and things will solve themselves. A hardcore geek like Hasu will not be able to restrain himself from creating said firmware just because he wants to remote-control his entire 300 keyboard collection.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline njbair

  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 11 May 2015, 07:25:40 »
Or build a mesh network of RGB-backlit keyboards, arrange them in a matrix, and turn each one into a pixel on a massive keyboard jumbotron.

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline admiralvorian

  • Posts: 324
  • Location: United States
  • DIY
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 11 May 2015, 11:11:32 »
I signed up for a chip pocket. not because i want to hack hardware and do things with gpio, but because it looks cool.
Darude Status:
☐ Not Sandstorm
☑ Sandstorm                                               wts wtt wtb

Offline GL1TCH3D

  • Posts: 1117
  • Location: Quebec, Canada
  • Audiophile, tea lover and now keyboard hugger!
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 11 May 2015, 23:13:13 »
I signed up for a chip pocket. not because i want to hack hardware and do things with gpio, but because it looks cool.

We're going to need a review of the keyboard!

Offline berserkfan

  • Posts: 2135
  • Location: Not CONUS Not CONUS Not CONUS Not CONUS
  • changing diapers is more fun than model f assembly
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 00:39:41 »
Speaking of which, does it mean that this computer might offer a keyboard wifi capabilities if signals were passed through them?
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline njbair

  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 06:32:58 »
Speaking of which, does it mean that this computer might offer a keyboard wifi capabilities if signals were passed through them?
If someone created the firmware to do so, yes, a keyboard with this thing inside would be Wi-Fi capable. That said, your computer would also need some kind of software installed to talk to a Wi-Fi keyboard. But since the chip also has Bluetooth, and since all major computer OSes already know how to talk to a Bluetooth keyboard, I'm not sure what you would gain. Wi-Fi is also more battery-hungry.

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline trauring

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 94
    • off on a tangent
New Samsung ARTIK Arduino-compatible dev boards
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 15:09:00 »
Samsung has announced a new line of dev boards, called ARTIK (http://artik.io). Three boards - ARTIK 1, 5 and 10. The ARTIK 5 is the most interesting to me - similar to the C.H.I.P. it has 4GB storage and 512MB of RAM, as well as 47 GPIO, 4 I2C, 2 UART, 1 SPI and 1 I2S.

Offline njbair

  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: New Samsung ARTIK Arduino-compatible dev boards
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 17:01:00 »
Samsung has announced a new line of dev boards, called ARTIK (http://artik.io). Three boards - ARTIK 1, 5 and 10. The ARTIK 5 is the most interesting to me - similar to the C.H.I.P. it has 4GB storage and 512MB of RAM, as well as 47 GPIO, 4 I2C, 2 UART, 1 SPI and 1 I2S.

Those things are tiny! You could do some amazing stuff with those.

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline rsac

  • Posts: 47
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #24 on: Thu, 14 May 2015, 16:04:35 »
Well, a basic question: can this board emulate a USB keyboard for the computer it is connected into?

As for the lack of GPIO pins, there are many ways to wire up a keyboard matrix: http://www.openmusiclabs.com/learning/digital/input-matrix-scanning/

Only 8 GPIO, not enough for any keyboard larger than 16 keys. Kind of a shame, it would be awesome to build a Linux-powered keyboard. Imagine programming your board by plugging a monitor into it!

I suppose at that clock speed you could probably use shift registers and still achieve a 1KHz polling rate.
Raspberry pi can achieve MHz rate gpio speed: http://codeandlife.com/2012/07/03/benchmarking-raspberry-pi-gpio-speed/
For scanning a keyboard matrix, why would shift registers be too slow?

Of course, unlike a real microcontroller, it runs a non-realtime OS that may steal control from you for many miliseconds if it wants, especially as it is a single core.

Offline njbair

  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #25 on: Thu, 14 May 2015, 17:51:58 »


Well, a basic question: can this board emulate a USB keyboard for the computer it is connected into?

As for the lack of GPIO pins, there are many ways to wire up a keyboard matrix: http://www.openmusiclabs.com/learning/digital/input-matrix-scanning/

Only 8 GPIO, not enough for any keyboard larger than 16 keys. Kind of a shame, it would be awesome to build a Linux-powered keyboard. Imagine programming your board by plugging a monitor into it!

I suppose at that clock speed you could probably use shift registers and still achieve a 1KHz polling rate.
Raspberry pi can achieve MHz rate gpio speed: http://codeandlife.com/2012/07/03/benchmarking-raspberry-pi-gpio-speed/
For scanning a keyboard matrix, why would shift registers be too slow?

Of course, unlike a real microcontroller, it runs a non-realtime OS that may steal control from you for many miliseconds if it wants, especially as it is a single core.

I don't remember saying the Raspberry Pi would be too slow. But why would you use that? It's huge compared to a Teensy and doesn't add anything the Teensy can't do. The CHIP at least has native Bluetooth, which is a big plus. It's also a lot smaller than the Raspberry Pi and cheaper than a Teensy.

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline rsac

  • Posts: 47
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #26 on: Thu, 14 May 2015, 20:57:06 »
I don't remember saying the Raspberry Pi would be too slow. But why would you use that? It's huge compared to a Teensy and doesn't add anything the Teensy can't do. The CHIP at least has native Bluetooth, which is a big plus. It's also a lot smaller than the Raspberry Pi and cheaper than a Teensy.
I linked that Raspberry pi post because it should have a similar GPIO speed to this C.H.I.P. It seems you were wondering what speed it would be for driving shift registers.

Offline njbair

  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #27 on: Thu, 14 May 2015, 21:14:23 »
I don't remember saying the Raspberry Pi would be too slow. But why would you use that? It's huge compared to a Teensy and doesn't add anything the Teensy can't do. The CHIP at least has native Bluetooth, which is a big plus. It's also a lot smaller than the Raspberry Pi and cheaper than a Teensy.
I linked that Raspberry pi post because it should have a similar GPIO speed to this C.H.I.P. It seems you were wondering what speed it would be for driving shift registers.

Oh OK I missed the connection there.

No, I didn't doubt this board could handle a 1KHz polling rate, even with shift registers. But I think an I2C I/O expander chip would be a better way to go for this board, since it's easier to find those with 20+ I/O pins, and I think I2C usually runs at about 100kHz or something, so no speed issues there...

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline rsac

  • Posts: 47
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #28 on: Fri, 15 May 2015, 00:48:15 »
No, I didn't doubt this board could handle a 1KHz polling rate, even with shift registers. But I think an I2C I/O expander chip would be a better way to go for this board, since it's easier to find those with 20+ I/O pins, and I think I2C usually runs at about 100kHz or something, so no speed issues there...
I2C seems to be much slower than shift registers in this case (only 100kHz as you said), and you can chain shift registers infinitely to get more I/O pins with no impact in the speed (correct me if I'm wrong) for this use case. But Ergodox used an I2C for matrix scanning, as it needs only 2 data pins plus 2 for power to communicate between halves, and it seems to work sufficiently well. I just read about this this week, but I suspect shift registers are better and cheaper for this, as you can probably spare 3 data pins.

Offline tufty

  • Posts: 347
  • Location: French Alps
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #29 on: Fri, 15 May 2015, 01:25:34 »
Of course, unlike a real microcontroller, it runs a non-realtime OS that may steal control from you for many miliseconds if it wants, especially as it is a single core.
... and there's the rub.

These aren't microcontrollers, they are fully fledged computers, with all that implies.  The main issue is going to be boot time.  Your (main) computer expects the peripheral you plug in to be up and running, pretty much instantly.  I suspect that most OSs will stop trying to enumerate if a device isn't ready to talk within a certain, fairly short, timescale.  A user isn't going to be happy with a keyboard that needs 30 seconds from plugging in to working, either.

edit

Yep, USB will barf - "A USB compliant Host expects all requests to be processed within a maximum period of 5 seconds."
« Last Edit: Fri, 15 May 2015, 01:28:23 by tufty »

Offline Koren

  • Posts: 133
  • Location: France
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #30 on: Fri, 15 May 2015, 03:25:13 »
No, I didn't doubt this board could handle a 1KHz polling rate, even with shift registers.
Not really "even with"... Teensy emulate a shift register when it's scanning the keys. You won't loose any speed. And it'll be faster (and simpler) than I2/C, although you don't need this speed at all.

Of course, unlike a real microcontroller, it runs a non-realtime OS that may steal control from you for many miliseconds if it wants, especially as it is a single core.
Should you run it in a keyboard, I think you may want to use a RT Linux or RT OS. But keyboard scanning is such a slow process that I don't think that's really needed in practice.

A user isn't going to be happy with a keyboard that needs 30 seconds from plugging in to working, either.
I agree, but shut down all useless services in a keyboard and tweak a little bit the boot and you'll get a 2s, 3s tops cold boot time.

That being said, I'm not sure you want to deal with a computer inside a keyboard. So many things can turn bad (and I don't talk about unauthorized people getting access the keyboard, since they won't expect you to run a computer in the keyboard so they probably won't try ^_^ )

Even for the easier configuration by wireless. Should you want this, there's better solutions... i'd rather run a WiFi-enabled arduino, for example (not the same, I know, and harder to use for debugging than using a root ssh on the keyboard obviously). In fact, the following kickstarter may be a better solution:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/piccolino/piccolino-arduino-compatible-wifi-oled-sram-sd-car

(Small form-factor arduino-compatible 328p microcontroller with WiFi, µSD and a 128x64 oled screen for the price of a teensy, although it's currently sold out... it's open hardware, though)


Besides, we don't know enough about the board to know whether you can turn the USB master connexion into an USB slave one (and change its enumeration to disguise as a keyboard). It may not even be possible to use this as a wired keyboard without additionnal hardware (or software in the host, which is at least as inconvenient) and it will at least require a specific USB cable. Not sure about bluetooth, it could work better.

I2C seems to be much slower than shift registers in this case (only 100kHz as you said), and you can chain shift registers infinitely to get more I/O pins with no impact in the speed (correct me if I'm wrong)
You're perfectly right (although of course the more bits you use on the shift register, the longer the scan, but it's the same for direct teensy, shift registers and I2C solutions)

The Ergodox indeed use I2C because it reduce the number of wires between the two parts (and could connect more than a second part), since it's quite straightforward to achieve a 2-wire communications with this.

Although creating a 2-wire solution with shift-registers isn't a hard task: use a GPIO to drive a 74HC165 (parallel-to-serial 8-bits), connect the serial output of the 74HC165 to a second GPIO, and slave one (or several) 16-bits shift registers to the 74HC165 reset input. Connect the parallel output of your shift registers and the parallel input of your 74HC165 to your keyboard matrix and you'll get a 128 keys solution (for a single shift register) on only two GPIOs with two ICs (maybe three to handle the slaving correctly).

You'll probably want to use a third wire/GPIO for synchronization, though, because it'll make everything easier.

Now, I want to try it just for the fun ^_^
« Last Edit: Fri, 15 May 2015, 03:43:55 by Koren »

Offline MrFex

  • Posts: 112
  • Location: NL
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #31 on: Fri, 15 May 2015, 04:13:36 »
This board looks awesome. I can't want to play with it .. thanks for sharing!

At all the hardware freaks, if you want bluetooth why not combine a ATMega32u4 with a simple bluetooth module? Could be done <10$ all I am saying .. :)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/30ft-Wireless-Bluetooth-RF-Transceiver-Module-serial-RS232-TTL-HC-05-for-arduino-/310540196588?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item484da35aec

Offline trauring

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 94
    • off on a tangent
New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #32 on: Fri, 15 May 2015, 05:59:28 »
Koren, want to post a diagram of all that? I've been planning to experiment with an I/O expander and shift registers for making keyboards, so it would be nice to see.
« Last Edit: Fri, 15 May 2015, 06:04:56 by trauring »

Offline trauring

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 94
    • off on a tangent
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #33 on: Fri, 15 May 2015, 06:09:05 »

At all the hardware freaks, if you want bluetooth why not combine a ATMega32u4 with a simple bluetooth module? Could be done <10$ all I am saying .. :)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/30ft-Wireless-Bluetooth-RF-Transceiver-Module-serial-RS232-TTL-HC-05-for-arduino-/310540196588?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item484da35aec

Does that Bluetooth module support a keyboard Bluetooth profile? I didn't see mention of that in the specs. I'm not an covert on Bluetooth, but I don't think you can use a Bluetooth module to interface as a keyboard without having built-in support for the proper profile.

Offline MrFex

  • Posts: 112
  • Location: NL
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #34 on: Fri, 15 May 2015, 06:16:31 »
Good point. Perhaps it isn't that simple. I did found this however:
https://blog.adafruit.com/2013/09/27/new-product-bluefruit-ez-key-12-input-bluetooth-hid-keyboard-controller/

But that obviously costs more... I'll look into this though, interesting topic.

Offline trauring

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 94
    • off on a tangent
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #35 on: Fri, 15 May 2015, 06:23:48 »
Notice the comment in the adafruit product description about Bluetooth 2.0 and cheap adapters...

Offline njbair

  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #36 on: Fri, 15 May 2015, 20:48:57 »



Now, I want to try it just for the fun ^_^

...and now we're back to GeekHack!

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline rsac

  • Posts: 47
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #37 on: Sat, 16 May 2015, 02:00:42 »
In fact, the following kickstarter may be a better solution:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/piccolino/piccolino-arduino-compatible-wifi-oled-sram-sd-car

(Small form-factor arduino-compatible 328p microcontroller with WiFi, µSD and a 128x64 oled screen for the price of a teensy, although it's currently sold out... it's open hardware, though)
But with this chip it would not work as an USB keyboard, right? Only via wifi with an adapter or driver?

Quote
The Ergodox indeed use I2C because it reduce the number of wires between the two parts (and could connect more than a second part), since it's quite straightforward to achieve a 2-wire communications with this.

Although creating a 2-wire solution with shift-registers isn't a hard task: use a GPIO to drive a 74HC165 (parallel-to-serial 8-bits), connect the serial output of the 74HC165 to a second GPIO, and slave one (or several) 16-bits shift registers to the 74HC165 reset input. Connect the parallel output of your shift registers and the parallel input of your 74HC165 to your keyboard matrix and you'll get a 128 keys solution (for a single shift register) on only two GPIOs with two ICs (maybe three to handle the slaving correctly).

You'll probably want to use a third wire/GPIO for synchronization, though, because it'll make everything easier.

Now, I want to try it just for the fun ^_^
Another possible shift register configuration would be using a 74HC164 driven by two wires to light the columns, and then a single wire as a line in a Nx1 "matrix". You write a single bit on the shift register and then just move it by the matrix via the clocking pin, reading the line for each step. That way you don't need the resistors/diodes for each key that other solutions require, and thus is the one that uses the least components and is the cheapest (of course, the price difference is just a couple of dollars). I'm not sure how more complicated or easier is to wire a shift-register brigade configuration vs a matrix one.

The nice thing about 2 wires for data is that one can connect the two halves using a USB cable, or TRSS cable, etc, that have 4 wires. If it was possible to transform the pin that supplies the first bit into the columns shift register into an input pin for the rest of the scan this could be turned into a 2-wire solution (that would turn in a 3-wires after the first shift register). I don't know if it is safe.

Offline Koren

  • Posts: 133
  • Location: France
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #38 on: Sat, 16 May 2015, 07:03:01 »
Koren, want to post a diagram of all that? I've been planning to experiment with an I/O expander and shift registers for making keyboards, so it would be nice to see.
Will do... I'd rather test the circuitry before posting it, though, because there's sometimes strange timing issues you miss at first. And with shift registers and parallel to serial, it can be a bit tricky if you want to avoid too many wires.

That being said, there's an easier solution using mux/demux and a counter.

Quick'n dirty schematics (should be verified, and I wouldn't swear that those are the correct parts, just to illustrate the idea):


Counter on left, 4-to-16 in the middle, 8-to-1 on right (and an inverter on the upper right). This should drive a 128 keys keyboard (16x8 matrix) with only 2 outputs and 1 input from the microcontroller.

Initial state: 0 on Clock and 1 on Reset

Init: put 0 on Reset, then back 1 -> Data shows the status of the (0,0) key

Advance : put 1 on Clock, then 0 -> The next key state can be read on Data


Thus, you just have to alternate 1 and 0 on the clock line to scan the state of all the 128 keys by reading the data line. When you reach the last key, it go back to the first one. It can be quicker to use the reset/init if you don't use the 16 columns, though.

You could even get rid of the reset line, but you'll probably have to use a trick to know which key you're reading. An easy solution would be shorting the whole 1st column and not connecting the whole 8th line. You loose 23 keys (thus 105 keys keyboard) but the sequence of 8 consecutive high states means you've just scanned the first column, this giving you a reference.

The inverter (74LS04) could probably be avoided too by using a RC cell to delay the low-to-high transition on the CPR input. Values will depend on the IC and on the polling rate, though.

It's dead easy to add a second 74LS151 to get a 16x16 matrix or a second 74LS154 to get a 32x8 matrix, using the Q7 output of the 74LS590 and the "enable" inputs of the mux/demux.




But with this chip it would not work as an USB keyboard, right? Only via wifi with an adapter or driver?
That's a good question. Usually, the 328P in common Arduinos boards can easily act as an USB keyboard brain because they have a 8U2 (or 16U2) on board. The details on Piccolino are a bit scarse, but indeed, the 8U2 is probably missing, so you'd have to include it (assuming that you can connect it to the 328P). I'd say it's probably doable.

Or the alternative is to connect the Piccolino to a standard Arduino via SPI bus. The Piccolino can run the matrix scans, drive the screen, store data and communicate via WiFi while the other one communicate with the PC as a USB device.

There's probably no totally plug'n play solution with this board, but I'd say that the wireless and OLED already being available make up for the additional work to add the USB connection.

Also, keep in mind that we don't know for sure that you can connect the C.H.I.P. as a USB device either... and if you can't, it may be more difficult to add one.

Another possible shift register configuration would be using a 74HC164 driven by two wires to light the columns, and then a single wire as a line in a Nx1 "matrix".
Won't you need a lot of serial registers for a 50+ keys keyboard, though? Or did I understood you incorrectly?

Offline rsac

  • Posts: 47
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #39 on: Sat, 16 May 2015, 09:50:41 »
Another possible shift register configuration would be using a 74HC164 driven by two wires to light the columns, and then a single wire as a line in a Nx1 "matrix".
Won't you need a lot of serial registers for a 50+ keys keyboard, though? Or did I understood you incorrectly?
Yes, for N keys you need N/8 shift registers daisy-chained, each responsible for 8 keys around it. N/8 is still less than N diodes/resistors, and one 74HC164 is cheaper than 8 diodes, so my claims remains. I don't know if using the same wire for data and output is safe though, or if I need some other components to make it safe.

In the link I posted earlier there are also shift register hacks to use only 2 or 1 line to communicate with daisy-chained 74HC165 shift registers: http://www.openmusiclabs.com/learning/digital/input-matrix-scanning/hacks/

Offline Koren

  • Posts: 133
  • Location: France
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #40 on: Sat, 16 May 2015, 11:49:25 »
Yes, for N keys you need N/8 shift registers daisy-chained, each responsible for 8 keys around it. N/8 is still less than N diodes/resistors, and one 74HC164 is cheaper than 8 diodes, so my claims remains.
I wasn't disputing your claim*... It's just that it was a lot of 74x164, so I was wondering if I had understand incorrectly your idea.

(*although I usually pay ~50-60 cents for a 164 and about the same for 12-20 diods, it's a close call for me)

Yes, that's a perfectly doable solution, maybe a bit harder to wire than the usual matrix.

In the link I posted earlier there are also shift register hacks to use only 2 or 1 line to communicate with daisy-chained 74HC165 shift registers: http://www.openmusiclabs.com/learning/digital/input-matrix-scanning/hacks/
The "two line" solution was similar to the one I was toying with yesterday, although I wanted to control both the shift register AND the parralel-to-serial chip, which was making things a bit harder to implement correctly.

I don't know if using the same wire for data and output is safe though, or if I need some other components to make it safe.
If you're thinking about the same kind of idea suggested in your link to use a single GPIO in both directions, it can work (I did something similar once), but I don't think you're in such a need of GPIOs you can't use two (or three) of lines.


You could protect everything with 3-states IC if you really want to use a bidirectionnal line, but that'll make everything more complex for a small gain. Speaking of that, I'm amazed by what a circuit can survive... On my first ISA card (I'm feeling old), I was reading on the data bus of a PC and writing on the address bus, because I was given a mirrored pinout of the ISA bus... Of course, the PC didn't boot, but I was surprised that it was perfectly fine afterwards!


If you want to use less wire that connect the two halves of a keyboard, there's plently of tricks to use the power line as a data line at the same time, too ^_^

Offline rsac

  • Posts: 47
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #41 on: Sat, 16 May 2015, 14:21:26 »
Yes, that's a perfectly doable solution, maybe a bit harder to wire than the usual matrix.
Yeah, the diode/resistor legs are actually handy for hand wiring. My solution might be better for a PCB where wiring complexity isn't that much of a issue, and not having to solder something for each switch is a win, right?

If you're thinking about the same kind of idea suggested in your link to use a single GPIO in both directions, it can work (I did something similar once), but I don't think you're in such a need of GPIOs you can't use two (or three) of lines.

You could protect everything with 3-states IC if you really want to use a bidirectionnal line, but that'll make everything more complex for a small gain. Speaking of that, I'm amazed by what a circuit can survive... On my first ISA card (I'm feeling old), I was reading on the data bus of a PC and writing on the address bus, because I was given a mirrored pinout of the ISA bus... Of course, the PC didn't boot, but I was surprised that it was perfectly fine afterwards!

If you want to use less wire that connect the two halves of a keyboard, there's plently of tricks to use the power line as a data line at the same time, too ^_^
Yeah, this CHIP has 8 GPIOs, and any solution using less than 3 data lines for shift registers drives up the complexity really fast. This indeed only makes sense if the payoff is being able to use a USB cable between two halves of a keyboard, for example, so we are drifting off-topic. Maybe it's better to open another topic, where you can also explain that power line sharing trick?

Offline MrFex

  • Posts: 112
  • Location: NL
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #42 on: Thu, 04 June 2015, 14:01:16 »

At all the hardware freaks, if you want bluetooth why not combine a ATMega32u4 with a simple bluetooth module? Could be done <10$ all I am saying .. :)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/30ft-Wireless-Bluetooth-RF-Transceiver-Module-serial-RS232-TTL-HC-05-for-arduino-/310540196588?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item484da35aec

Does that Bluetooth module support a keyboard Bluetooth profile? I didn't see mention of that in the specs. I'm not an covert on Bluetooth, but I don't think you can use a Bluetooth module to interface as a keyboard without having built-in support for the proper profile.

It does seem that the adafruit module has this functionality, I'm not sure either though, since I don't know much about bluetooth from a technical standpoint.
https://learn.adafruit.com/convert-your-model-m-keyboard-to-bluetooth-with-bluefruit-ez-key-hid/overview

Anyway, I just wanted to post back and share this. Maybe slightly offtopic for this thread, but none the less interesting right? I'll definitely pick this up when I get the chance (22$ is too much, china where are you on this? :))

Offline njbair

  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #43 on: Sat, 06 June 2015, 07:16:33 »
So I came across a blogger who claims that the CHIP is actually not a $9 computer, but the $9 price is a low ball price to get better exposure and thus more capital. He claims to have heard this from the SOC manufacturer.

Not sure if it's true, but interesting read:

https://olimex.wordpress.com/2015/06/05/how-to-get-in-the-news-tell-people-that-you-will-make-and-sell-something-which-cost-you-20-for-9/

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline flabbergast

  • Posts: 234
  • Location: UK
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #44 on: Sat, 06 June 2015, 08:15:00 »
So I came across a blogger who claims that the CHIP is actually not a $9 computer, but the $9 price is a low ball price to get better exposure and thus more capital. He claims to have heard this from the SOC manufacturer.

Not sure if it's true, but interesting read:

https://olimex.wordpress.com/2015/06/05/how-to-get-in-the-news-tell-people-that-you-will-make-and-sell-something-which-cost-you-20-for-9/
That's not just a blogger - Olimex is an established company that designs, makes and sells embedded stuff. They have quite a lot of experience with this.

Offline tufty

  • Posts: 347
  • Location: French Alps
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #45 on: Sat, 06 June 2015, 08:16:37 »
So I came across a blogger who claims that the CHIP is actually not a $9 computer, but the $9 price is a low ball price to get better exposure and thus more capital. He claims to have heard this from the SOC manufacturer.

Not sure if it's true, but interesting read:

https://olimex.wordpress.com/2015/06/05/how-to-get-in-the-news-tell-people-that-you-will-make-and-sell-something-which-cost-you-20-for-9/
Olimex aren't just "some blogger", they are a respected company manufacturing and selling open source boards for all manner of platforms, including Allwinner's chips.  They understand the concepts of BOM price, and they have probably one of the closest western contacts there is with Allwinner.

Meanwhile, a board running Linux is total overkill for a keyboard.  The user experience will be ****.  I can't get my A20 board fully booted in under 3 seconds, and that's running bare metal code, not a full OS.  3 seconds is too much for a keyboard.

Offline trauring

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 94
    • off on a tangent
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #46 on: Sat, 06 June 2015, 17:16:25 »
Olimax is of course a competitor, so I guess you need to take what they say with a grain of salt, but if what they're claiming is true about the costs, then it will be interesting to see what happens with C.H.I.P.

On the other hand, the campaign just ended and they said in an e-mail to backers that the cost will remain $9 when they allow pre-orders after the Kickstarter campaign is fulfilled. The exact text is:

"Also, to clear up a little confusion: when preorders do open up, thanks to your support and encouragement right now, C.H.I.P. will still be $9."

It doesn't say it will remain $9 beyond pre-orders, so it's entirely possible that the price will go up in the future. Another data point - they sold over 50,000 C.H.I.P.s during the campaign, so their pricing would presumably be better than what was quoted to Olimex in that blog post, although they didn't necessarily know that when they started the campaign.

Offline njbair

  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #47 on: Sun, 07 June 2015, 15:54:05 »
I didn't mean anything derisive by the term "blogger," I just saw it was a WordPress.com site.

I suppose it's possible they plan to use the CHIP as a loss leader for the peripherals, and that's the strategy behind the $9 price tag. But it was smart marketing at any rate. Another $20 SOC breakout board would have been white noise and probably not even hit the 5,000 quantity.

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline tufty

  • Posts: 347
  • Location: French Alps
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #48 on: Sun, 07 June 2015, 23:27:47 »
Alternatively, they could have made the effort to make it *interesting* rather than just another "Linux on an SoC with minimal carrier" effort.

Offline njbair

  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: New C.H.I.P. $9 computer with WiFi & Bluetooth
« Reply #49 on: Mon, 08 June 2015, 21:21:03 »
Alternatively, they could have made the effort to make it *interesting* rather than just another "Linux on an SoC with minimal carrier" effort.

Dunno, but $9 is pretty interesting to me.

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps