Infinity keyboard is back on MassDrop

[spiceBar]

Gotta get one!

  https://www.massdrop.com/buy/infinity-keyboard-kit?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Transactional%3A%20Drop%20Request%20Launched&mode=guest_open

[katushkin]

=/ what makes a non-standard bottom row "hacker" anyway?

[thehijjt]

It matches the smaller size of the hhkb alt key. I don't think that is a good enough reason though.

[tp4tissue]

These are compat with costar stabs yea?

[spiceBar]

These are compat with costar stabs yea?

Apparently, yes:
  https://www.massdrop.com/keyboard/infinity/assembly

[ideus]

These are compat with costar stabs yea?

Apparently, yes:
  https://www.massdrop.com/keyboard/infinity/assembly

The stabilizers are costar, with them the stabilized keys feel similar to non stabilized ones, which is much better than the slightly mushed feeling of keys with Cherry type stabilizers.

[spiceBar]

These are compat with costar stabs yea?

Apparently, yes:
  https://www.massdrop.com/keyboard/infinity/assembly

The stabilizers are costar, with them the stabilized keys feel similar to non stabilized ones, which is much better than the slightly mushed feeling of keys with Cherry type stabilizers.

Yes, it's my experience as well. I hate them because they drive me crazy when I need to remove/reinstall the stabilized keys, but they do feel slightly better when you type. I have also found that they are easier to silence, with thick grease.

[ideus]

These are compat with costar stabs yea?

Apparently, yes:
  https://www.massdrop.com/keyboard/infinity/assembly

The stabilizers are costar, with them the stabilized keys feel similar to non stabilized ones, which is much better than the slightly mushed feeling of keys with Cherry type stabilizers.

Yes, it's my experience as well. I hate them because they drive me crazy when I need to remove/reinstall the stabilized keys, but they do feel slightly better when you type. I have also found that they are easier to silence, with thick grease.

Cherry stabilizers are changing-caps friendly, costars are a pain in the ... But the last feel great.

[daerid]

Put mine together about a week ago. The firmware has some issues with waking Macs from sleep (it panics and goes into firmware flashing mode), but otherwise it's been fun.

The KLL (keyboard layout language) takes a while to wrap your head around, but is incredibly powerful once you do.

[nubbinator]

Cherry stabilizers are changing-caps friendly, costars are a pain in the ... But the last feel great.

Costar is easy if you do it right.  Instead of popping the inserts into the caps and trying to fit the wire in, put them on the wire and let them rest in the plate insert.  Pop the cap down on top of that.  99% of the time you won't have any issues putting caps on that way.

It's a trade off between Cherry and Costar.  Cherry is nicer sounding, but they can get mushy feeling and PCB mount ones have a tendency to pop out of the PCB when taking caps off.  Costar impact key feel less and, as such, tend to feel more crisp, but they can be wobbly and tend to rattle.

[GL1TCH3D]

I've always found that costars add some resistance and I hate that so much. Also the whole thing about the key caps.

Personally it's cherry all the way for me

[daerid]

Cherry stabs have always felt wrong to me. To each their own tho, honestly.

Anywho, I just wrote up a guide on setting up a VM for programming the Infinity (since the Configurator on MassDrop is totally borked):

http://rossipedia.com/blog/2015/02/programming-the-infinity-keyboard/

[strict]

I am sorely tempted to pick one of these up purely because of the matias compatibility. I've never used a matias switch and I'm very curious about them.

[ideus]

Cherry stabilizers are changing-caps friendly, costars are a pain in the ... But the last feel great.

Costar is easy if you do it right.  Instead of popping the inserts into the caps and trying to fit the wire in, put them on the wire and let them rest in the plate insert.  Pop the cap down on top of that.  99% of the time you won't have any issues putting caps on that way.

It's a trade off between Cherry and Costar.  Cherry is nicer sounding, but they can get mushy feeling and PCB mount ones have a tendency to pop out of the PCB when taking caps off.  Costar impact key feel less and, as such, tend to feel more crisp, but they can be wobbly and tend to rattle.

Awesome, I will try it your way. Costar feels very nice, thus, the slightly difficult installation is a small cost only.

[Novus]

=/ what makes a non-standard bottom row "hacker" anyway?

It's steve jobs approved.

[ideus]

=/ what makes a non-standard bottom row "hacker" anyway?

It's steve jobs approved.

Poor Steve.

[brimborion]

While I think there is great merit in learning to do things oneself and putting together kits, I am turned off by the fact that if I just bought all these parts and soldered them together I'd end up with a shoddily constructed (because I did it) board that costs nearly $250 with shipping, with the same characteristics as the off-the-shelf boards that I buy and never reprogram or anything (because they are usually fine, or have a dip switch or something that swaps the two keys I care about.)

It's like when I built a Sinclair ZX81 from a kit, but in the end, all I had to show for it was a backache and a ZX81.

I think it's neat that it can mount Matias switches though.

[ideus]

While I think there is great merit in learning to do things oneself and putting together kits, I am turned off by the fact that if I just bought all these parts and soldered them together I'd end up with a shoddily constructed (because I did it) board that costs nearly $250 with shipping, with the same characteristics as the off-the-shelf boards that I buy and never reprogram or anything (because they are usually fine, or have a dip switch or something that swaps the two keys I care about.)

It's like when I built a Sinclair ZX81 from a kit, but in the end, all I had to show for it was a backache and a ZX81.

I think it's neat that it can mount Matias switches though.

NVM

[ideus]

70 joined in less than 24 hours, incredible, now only 12 to reach 100, and $99 usd per kit.


100+ orders after the first day. Now it costs $99, but you could buy the PCB, and the plate only for $69, if you want to source switches somewhere else.

[daerid]

While I think there is great merit in learning to do things oneself and putting together kits, I am turned off by the fact that if I just bought all these parts and soldered them together I'd end up with a shoddily constructed (because I did it) board that costs nearly $250 with shipping, with the same characteristics as the off-the-shelf boards that I buy and never reprogram or anything (because they are usually fine, or have a dip switch or something that swaps the two keys I care about.)

It's like when I built a Sinclair ZX81 from a kit, but in the end, all I had to show for it was a backache and a ZX81.

I think it's neat that it can mount Matias switches though.

Then the Infinity board (indeed DIY boards in general) is not for you

[brimborion]

While I think there is great merit in learning to do things oneself and putting together kits, I am turned off by the fact that if I just bought all these parts and soldered them together I'd end up with a shoddily constructed (because I did it) board that costs nearly $250 with shipping, with the same characteristics as the off-the-shelf boards that I buy and never reprogram or anything (because they are usually fine, or have a dip switch or something that swaps the two keys I care about.)

It's like when I built a Sinclair ZX81 from a kit, but in the end, all I had to show for it was a backache and a ZX81.

I think it's neat that it can mount Matias switches though.

Then the Infinity board (indeed DIY boards in general) is not for you

Not today anyway. Mostly talking myself out of it.

[vindaon]

Yo this drop came pretty much right after I decided to buy some switches and started looking around for a PCB. It's destiny, obviously.

[ishpeck]

The KLL (keyboard layout language) takes a while to wrap your head around, but is incredibly powerful once you do.

I'm a programmer.  I'm not intimidated by learning new programming languages.  Sometimes I make them just for fun. 

I'm not entirely sold on this KLL idea, tho'.  I'm not sure why it is that keyboard layout justifies a whole domain-specific language.  It seems like an unnecessary level of complexity to me.

That being said, KLL is certainly superior to the broken web configurator that they have out there.

I <3 my Infinity.  My only regret is not buying two of them.

[NorrisB]

that thing is hideous

[nubbinator]

that thing is hideous

[daerid]

I'm a programmer.  I'm not intimidated by learning new programming languages.  Sometimes I make them just for fun. 

I'm not entirely sold on this KLL idea, tho'.  I'm not sure why it is that keyboard layout justifies a whole domain-specific language.  It seems like an unnecessary level of complexity to me.

That being said, KLL is certainly superior to the broken web configurator that they have out there.

I <3 my Infinity.  My only regret is not buying two of them.

Been writin code myself for almost 18 years now, and HaaTa (creator of KLL) does some pretty low-level s**t for his day job. I was skeptical at first as well, but after chatting with him about it he has some good reasons for doing it the way he did.

[ideus]

I'm a programmer.  I'm not intimidated by learning new programming languages.  Sometimes I make them just for fun. 

I'm not entirely sold on this KLL idea, tho'.  I'm not sure why it is that keyboard layout justifies a whole domain-specific language.  It seems like an unnecessary level of complexity to me.

That being said, KLL is certainly superior to the broken web configurator that they have out there.

I <3 my Infinity.  My only regret is not buying two of them.

Been writin code myself for almost 18 years now, and HaaTa (creator of KLL) does some pretty low-level s**t for his day job. I was skeptical at first as well, but after chatting with him about it he has some good reasons for doing it the way he did.

Could we know some of those good reasons?

[majache]

Put mine together about a week ago. The firmware has some issues with waking Macs from sleep (it panics and goes into firmware flashing mode), but otherwise it's been fun.

The KLL (keyboard layout language) takes a while to wrap your head around, but is incredibly powerful once you do.

I see you also have the CODE clears, which I was thinking about getting until I saw the infinity on sale from massdrop.  I considered just getting CODE clear AND Infinity but this will be my first mechanical keyboard and I'm not sure what to do. Is there a way to get the infinity board besides massdrop? I'd hate to miss the opportunity to use the configurator and have a kickass board but that being said I'm not sure if i'll enjoy it as much as the standard layout of the CODE. Is there a stand alone configurator app? The one on massdrop doesn't let me put in a funciton key.

[mycroft]

While I think there is great merit in learning to do things oneself and putting together kits, I am turned off by the fact that if I just bought all these parts and soldered them together I'd end up with a shoddily constructed (because I did it) board that costs nearly $250 with shipping, with the same characteristics as the off-the-shelf boards that I buy and never reprogram or anything (because they are usually fine, or have a dip switch or something that swaps the two keys I care about.)

It's like when I built a Sinclair ZX81 from a kit, but in the end, all I had to show for it was a backache and a ZX81.

I think it's neat that it can mount Matias switches though.

Taking the baby steps was very helpful.  Repairing and bolt modding a Model M (badly), cutting and assembling an Atreus burning my fingers, ****ing up a GPIO on the teensy, and shorting half a dozen things the first few times, then building an Atomic, I'm on to a Phantom II.   If I finish that without melting it through I'll be looking forward to building this, though I'm really tempted to *not* use the board and use a wire matrix...  The TMK has a pretty big heritage now, and being able to hit a couple of function macros and use the teensy tools (not crack open a case, and hit a pin to go to DFU mode and use a seperate tool) is awfully tempting.

[spiceBar]

While I think there is great merit in learning to do things oneself and putting together kits, I am turned off by the fact that if I just bought all these parts and soldered them together I'd end up with a shoddily constructed (because I did it) board that costs nearly $250 with shipping, with the same characteristics as the off-the-shelf boards that I buy and never reprogram or anything (because they are usually fine, or have a dip switch or something that swaps the two keys I care about.)

It's like when I built a Sinclair ZX81 from a kit, but in the end, all I had to show for it was a backache and a ZX81.

I think it's neat that it can mount Matias switches though.

Taking the baby steps was very helpful.  Repairing and bolt modding a Model M (badly), cutting and assembling an Atreus burning my fingers, ****ing up a GPIO on the teensy, and shorting half a dozen things the first few times, then building an Atomic, I'm on to a Phantom II.   If I finish that without melting it through I'll be looking forward to building this, though I'm really tempted to *not* use the board and use a wire matrix...  The TMK has a pretty big heritage now, and being able to hit a couple of function macros and use the teensy tools (not crack open a case, and hit a pin to go to DFU mode and use a seperate tool) is awfully tempting.

Not sure if you mean that you have to wire a matrix to use TMK on the Infinity, but I have heard that the TMK firmware should work fine on the Infinity's controller.

I'm not 100% sure about it, and I'm still waiting for someone to report success doing this, because TMK is what I want.

[hasu]

To me the most beautiful point of Infinity is full programmability, due to this I could even flash my own firmware
Neither special tools nor soldering job are needed to load my firmware.

I just built firmware for you, which has normal HHKB layer and SpanceFn layer. I don't think there is risk of my firmware bricking your keyboard. I have a prototype of the keyboard but not production model and they have a bit difference on matrix. My Infinity is disassembled and I *can't* test and debug firmware on it now.

You can load it like this.

Code: [Select]

$ dfu-util -D infinity_spacefn.bin

EDIT: typo can -> can't
EDIT: 2015/03/22 Update attached binary. Fix for 'production' model of Infinity. See https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41989.msg1688544#msg1688544

[spiceBar]

To me the most beautiful point of Infinity is full programmability, due to this I could even flash my own firmware
Neither special tools nor soldering job are needed to load my firmware.

I just built firmware for you, which has normal HHKB layer and SpanceFn layer. I don't think there is risk of my firmware bricking your keyboard. I have a prototype of the keyboard but not production model and they have a bit difference on matrix. My Infinity is disassembled and I can test and debug firmware on it now.

You can load it like this.

Code: [Select]

$ dfu-util -D infinity_spacefn.bin


OK, great. I really hoped someone would have installed TMK on the Infinity and would report about it. You just did. Thanks!

[Willyc277]

I'd really like to pick one of these up, but I'm not sure how hard sourcing keycaps for it! With the standard layout (6.25 spacebar) how hard would it be to fill the bottom row? Could I just buy tsangan kits and be good to go?? Thanks!!

[NorrisB]

This keyboard = Waste of time + waste of money

There are way better boards out there at this price point, it amazes me how many geeks want to spend this price for a do it yourself board that will most likely end f'd up, and even if you get it right that keyboard is not very attractive.

rant ovah

[Willyc277]

^^^ not sure if srs

[jacobolus]

There are way better boards out there at this price point, it amazes me how many geeks want to spend this price for a do it yourself board that will most likely end f'd up, and even if you get it right that keyboard is not very attractive.

How many of those boards have fully programmable firmware? How many of them support Alps switches?

[dante]

Oh snap!    MD just added Matias Linear Alps as an option 

[ideus]

This keyboard = Waste of time + waste of money

There are way better boards out there at this price point, it amazes me how many geeks want to spend this price for a do it yourself board that will most likely end f'd up, and even if you get it right that keyboard is not very attractive.

rant ovah

What boards are you referring to?

[jacobolus]

I really hope that we can MassDrop to run a drop for either some printed Alps-mount keycaps, or at least some DCS blanks, that will work with these. At the moment the only easy option for Alps keycaps is DSA blanks, which is something that works for some people, but isn’t a great option for many others.

I also hope Matias will be ready soon with their stabilizer clips/wires/inserts that are compatible with keycaps designed for either standard Alps or MX stabilizers, and I hope MassDrop can incorporate that into their next run.

[batfink]

For a customizable keyboard that supposedly a collaboration between lots of keyboard enthusiasts, I can't understand how it would end up with two glaring errors:
- lack of option to have a key to the left of Z (ISO-like)
- one giant space bar instead of split into (at least) two keys.
</rant>

[jacobolus]

For a customizable keyboard that supposedly a collaboration between lots of keyboard enthusiasts, I can't understand how it would end up with two glaring errors:

This has been described before numerous times, but to repeat, the whole point of the project is to be able to make any layout with relatively short turn-around time.

The way the first layout to try was decided was via a poll. Someone put a poll up in Massdrop’s poll system: https://www.massdrop.com/vote/60-keyboard-layouts. The made up “HHKB 3” layout won the poll by a wide margin.

If you want a different layout, you should come up with a poll including your layout as an option, and if you can get a couple hundred votes together then MassDrop will try to run a drop for it.

[HalfSharkAlligator]

This keyboard = Waste of time + waste of money

There are way better boards out there at this price point, it amazes me how many geeks want to spend this price for a do it yourself board that will most likely end f'd up, and even if you get it right that keyboard is not very attractive.

rant ovah

What boards are you referring to?

I'm curious too, as I've been agonizing over buying this board (with ALPS) vs an alternative with more standard layout.  What better alternatives at this price point would you recommend?  I already have 2 Leopolds, one is Topre 66% and other is MX Brown 87 key

[ideus]

This keyboard = Waste of time + waste of money

There are way better boards out there at this price point, it amazes me how many geeks want to spend this price for a do it yourself board that will most likely end f'd up, and even if you get it right that keyboard is not very attractive.

rant ovah

What boards are you referring to?

I'm curious too, as I've been agonizing over buying this board (with ALPS) vs an alternative with more standard layout.  What better alternatives at this price point would you recommend?  I already have 2 Leopolds, one is Topre 66% and other is MX Brown 87 key

It seems his comment was more an opinion, than an argument based on facts. GON Nerd 60 is other programmable keyboard, but I think is a little bit more expensive, but that has an actual GUI to program it, plus hardware macross, and a lot of configurable options, I think it does not support ALPS though.


If MD does not fix the configurator soon, I do not see the Infinity becoming the success it might be.

[Sygaldry]

This keyboard = Waste of time + waste of money

There are way better boards out there at this price point, it amazes me how many geeks want to spend this price for a do it yourself board that will most likely end f'd up, and even if you get it right that keyboard is not very attractive.

rant ovah

What boards are you referring to?

I'm curious too, as I've been agonizing over buying this board (with ALPS) vs an alternative with more standard layout.  What better alternatives at this price point would you recommend?  I already have 2 Leopolds, one is Topre 66% and other is MX Brown 87 key

It seems his comment was more an opinion, than an argument based on facts. GON Nerd 60 is other programmable keyboard, but I think is a little bit more expensive, but that has an actual GUI to program it, plus hardware macross, and a lot of configurable options, I think it does not support ALPS though. If MD does not fix the configurator soon, I do not see it becoming the success they think it is.

The Infinity keyboard kind of is already a success... having sold as many as it has...

But yeah... the GON NerD60 with the GON universal 60 plate is about 30 dollars more after shipping. For those who don't really care about Alps compatibility, the NerD60 is certainly the better choice (it supports flashy LED modes and SMD LEDs, as well as coming with a reliable and effective remapping GUI).

[ideus]

This keyboard = Waste of time + waste of money

There are way better boards out there at this price point, it amazes me how many geeks want to spend this price for a do it yourself board that will most likely end f'd up, and even if you get it right that keyboard is not very attractive.

rant ovah

What boards are you referring to?

I'm curious too, as I've been agonizing over buying this board (with ALPS) vs an alternative with more standard layout.  What better alternatives at this price point would you recommend?  I already have 2 Leopolds, one is Topre 66% and other is MX Brown 87 key

It seems his comment was more an opinion, than an argument based on facts. GON Nerd 60 is other programmable keyboard, but I think is a little bit more expensive, but that has an actual GUI to program it, plus hardware macross, and a lot of configurable options, I think it does not support ALPS though. If MD does not fix the configurator soon, I do not see it becoming the success they think it is.

The Infinity keyboard kind of is already a success... having sold as many as it has...

But yeah... the GON NerD60 with the GON universal 60 plate is about 30 dollars more after shipping. For those who don't really care about Alps compatibility, the NerD60 is certainly the better choice (it supports flashy LED modes and SMD LEDs as well).

By success I meant happy customers. Customers are not very happy now: The configurator is not working, so people are stuck with the layout they do not like, or they should go into the trouble of low level programming.

[Sygaldry]

This keyboard = Waste of time + waste of money

There are way better boards out there at this price point, it amazes me how many geeks want to spend this price for a do it yourself board that will most likely end f'd up, and even if you get it right that keyboard is not very attractive.

rant ovah

What boards are you referring to?

I'm curious too, as I've been agonizing over buying this board (with ALPS) vs an alternative with more standard layout.  What better alternatives at this price point would you recommend?  I already have 2 Leopolds, one is Topre 66% and other is MX Brown 87 key

It seems his comment was more an opinion, than an argument based on facts. GON Nerd 60 is other programmable keyboard, but I think is a little bit more expensive, but that has an actual GUI to program it, plus hardware macross, and a lot of configurable options, I think it does not support ALPS though. If MD does not fix the configurator soon, I do not see it becoming the success they think it is.

The Infinity keyboard kind of is already a success... having sold as many as it has...

But yeah... the GON NerD60 with the GON universal 60 plate is about 30 dollars more after shipping. For those who don't really care about Alps compatibility, the NerD60 is certainly the better choice (it supports flashy LED modes and SMD LEDs as well).

By success I meant happy customers. Customers are not very happy now: The configurator is not working, so people are stuck with the layout they do not like, or they should go into the trouble of low level programming.

This assumes Massdrop truly cares about its customers  . There has been a ton of controversy surrounding Massdrop over the past year and it doesn't seem like Massdrop has the manpower (or intention) to address the growing number of unsatisfied customers.

[jacobolus]

By success I meant happy customers. Customers are not very happy now: The configurator is not working, so people are stuck with the layout they do not like, or they should go into the trouble of low level programming.

Note, they’re definitely working on new configuration software. MassDrop (and also HaaTa/Parak/OverKill) have fairly big goals for this project, it’s not like they’re done with this yet.

Where are you seeing these not very happy customers though? I just read through the last 15 pages of discussion at MassDrop’s site and I see a couple people complaining about chattery switches and discussing debounce times / algorithms, one guy complaining about the USB cable having a stupidly big collar, several people complaining about international shipping costs, one guy asking for some assembly help, a couple people asking about pre-assembled keyboards, a bunch of people who seem pretty happy so far, and another bunch who have general questions.

[paicrai]

Personally it's cherry all the way for me

audiophiles confirmed filthy casuals

[jdcarpe]

I'm also pretty certain that Massdrop wants to get the configurator working soon. I believe the 60% Infintiy is only the first of several keyboards they plan on releasing. It would be very short-sighted to release one keyboard and not support it. The same configurator could seemingly scale up or down for different keyboard designs as they are released. The configurator is key to their keyboard platform, not just the first keyboard released under that platform.

Have a little faith, guys. I'm sure they are working hard to get this running smoothly.

[daerid]

This assumes Massdrop truly cares about its customers  . There has been a ton of controversy surrounding Massdrop over the past year and it doesn't seem like Massdrop has the manpower (or intention) to address the growing number of unsatisfied customers.

Those are two separate issues. I've had tons of interaction with them since the first ErgoDox drop and they've been nothing but spectacular. They've gone out of their way to make sure I got taken care of (even so far as to let me keep a couple of items they shipped to me that were incorrect, and shipped me replacements). They've been nothing but professional and courteous every time I've interacted with them.