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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: robertsig on Wed, 05 February 2014, 10:59:01

Title: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: robertsig on Wed, 05 February 2014, 10:59:01
Why are Ergo Clears (other than the name) based upon the Cherry Clear switch?  Since it is more rare, wouldn't it make sense to mod a board based on the ubiquitous Cherry Brown up instead of the Clear down to get the same result?  Or am I missing something?  Is there something else different between the Browns and Clears other than springs?
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Wed, 05 February 2014, 10:59:38
The clear stem is different than the brown stem.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: keymaster on Wed, 05 February 2014, 11:01:38
^ which gives more tactility than the brown switch
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: robertsig on Wed, 05 February 2014, 11:07:33
Ahh, thanks.

Does anyone know where I can pick up Krytox now that the Geekhack store is closed?  I don't need much, right?
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Wed, 05 February 2014, 11:12:34
Have you tried stock clears? It might be worth a shot before you go all in.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: riotonthebay on Wed, 05 February 2014, 11:22:58
There's also an argument to be made that you should use the stock clears for a few months to break them in as well. I'd skipped this step before and regretted it.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 05 February 2014, 11:24:33
There's also an argument to be made that you should use the stock clears for a few months to break them in as well. I'd skipped this step before and regretted it.

?... elaborate on how you skipped using the switch while using the switch?
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: riotonthebay on Wed, 05 February 2014, 11:25:35
There's also an argument to be made that you should use the stock clears for a few months to break them in as well. I'd skipped this step before and regretted it.

?... elaborate on how you skipped using the switch while using the switch?

I modded brand new clears to ergo clears without breaking them in first.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: kod on Wed, 05 February 2014, 11:30:52
What specifically did you end up regretting?  Did you use lube when you did the mod?
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: riotonthebay on Wed, 05 February 2014, 11:34:04
I regretted not giving the switches time to break in without lube before lubing them. The switch will break in and the action will become smoother over time due to friction, but the lube reduces friction therefore taking longer to break in.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: kod on Wed, 05 February 2014, 11:35:14
I guess what I mean is i'd expect break-in to reduce friction, but lube to do the same thing... were they gritty or stuck at a particular point?
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: riotonthebay on Wed, 05 February 2014, 11:36:20
They weren't gritty or horrible – I still thought they were nicer than stock clears, browns, etc – but they never reached their peak potential ;)

One option would be to buy some used clears from an older Cherry board, for instance.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 05 February 2014, 11:58:50
They weren't gritty or horrible – I still thought they were nicer than stock clears, browns, etc – but they never reached their peak potential ;)

One option would be to buy some used clears from an older Cherry board, for instance.

um... the lube would delay the break in process.. but you're "still breaking them in as you use it"...


We should also clarify that Ergo-clear only indicates "Spring mod".. it doesn't indicate lube status..

This is what tripped me up when you said regret.. (http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/5c745924.gif)


Save the regretting for burnt-turkeys and divorce.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: riotonthebay on Wed, 05 February 2014, 11:59:48
Save the regretting for burnt-turkeys and divorce.

Sage words of wisdom ;)
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: hashbaz on Wed, 05 February 2014, 12:06:41
Ahh, thanks.

Does anyone know where I can pick up Krytox now that the Geekhack store is closed?  I don't need much, right?

Try ebay for the Krytox.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: riotonthebay on Wed, 05 February 2014, 12:09:53
Ahh, thanks.

Does anyone know where I can pick up Krytox now that the Geekhack store is closed?  I don't need much, right?

Try ebay for the Krytox.

Yep, this seller has reasonably priced Krytox, including GPL 205 and 103: http://www.ebay.com/usr/pps-auctions1
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: daerid on Wed, 05 February 2014, 13:32:09
Much prefer stock clears to ergo clears
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: Comment on Wed, 05 February 2014, 13:38:43
Much prefer stock clears to ergo clears
Definitely all preference, I'd recommend anyone try the stock clears before the ergos, ya never know what might strike your fancy!
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: tricheboars on Wed, 05 February 2014, 14:06:58
i just bought a lube kit from originitive and it shipped out today. it came with the lube you want. i bought the kit after JD told me lubing switches with Super Lube is a mortal sin.

i didnt know i should break in the clears for a bit before modding them.  i wouldnt mind doing that if it is worth it but i think it would be easier to mod the switches without having the soldered to a plate. but whateves. i want the best keyboard experience. i can wait.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: robertsig on Wed, 05 February 2014, 14:14:39
I bought a Cherry Clear based keyboard, some 65g Korean springs and also just ordered the MechLube 2 from Elite Keyboards.  Hopefully that lube is good enough.  I am looking for something in between Browns and Blacks, perhaps closer to Blues, so I don't have a problem modding a new board.  I love my Topre 45g board and found the Topre 55g just a bit too heavy.  If I could build my own keyboard, it would be Topre 49g.  :cool:  I believe, from what I've read, that the stock Clears are slightly stronger than a Torpre 55g, so I imagine the 65g Koreans will be perfect.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: Photoelectric on Wed, 05 February 2014, 14:17:38
Much prefer stock clears to ergo clears
Definitely all preference, I'd recommend anyone try the stock clears before the ergos, ya never know what might strike your fancy!

Same here.  Big stock Clears fan and also like light switches like Browns, Blues, 55g MX Whites, etc. for reference.  Don't care for ergo-Clears.  Definitely try stock Clears first to get an idea.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Wed, 05 February 2014, 14:18:54
I bought a Cherry Clear based keyboard, some 65g Korean springs and also just ordered the MechLube 2 from Elite Keyboards.  Hopefully that lube is good enough.  I am looking for something in between Browns and Blacks, perhaps closer to Blues, so I don't have a problem modding a new board.  I love my Topre 45g board and found the Topre 55g just a bit too heavy.  If I could build my own keyboard, it would be Topre 49g.  :cool:  I believe, from what I've read, that the stock Clears are slightly stronger than a Torpre 55g, so I imagine the 65g Koreans will be perfect.

Let us know how that mechlube is, I haven't seen it recommended very much for lubing switches.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: Comment on Wed, 05 February 2014, 14:19:38
i just bought a lube kit from originitive and it shipped out today. it came with the lube you want. i bought the kit after JD told me lubing switches with Super Lube is a mortal sin.

i didnt know i should break in the clears for a bit before modding them.  i wouldnt mind doing that if it is worth it but i think it would be easier to mod the switches without having the soldered to a plate. but whateves. i want the best keyboard experience. i can wait.
How did you know that your Orginative stuff shipped? I bought from there about a week ago (springs, stickers, etc) and only got notification for purchasing. No shipping info.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: tricheboars on Wed, 05 February 2014, 14:19:41
Much prefer stock clears to ergo clears
Definitely all preference, I'd recommend anyone try the stock clears before the ergos, ya never know what might strike your fancy!

Same here.  Big stock Clears fan and also like light switches like Browns, Blues, 55g MX Whites, etc. for reference.  Don't care for ergo-Clears.  Definitely try stock Clears first to get an idea.

i was 100% set on making ergo clears with 62g korean springs for my ergodox until i read this thread. what didnt you like about the ergo clears?  were they too light? what didnt you like about them?
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: strict on Wed, 05 February 2014, 14:20:18
I bought a Cherry Clear based keyboard, some 65g Korean springs and also just ordered the MechLube 2 from Elite Keyboards.  Hopefully that lube is good enough.  I am looking for something in between Browns and Blacks, perhaps closer to Blues, so I don't have a problem modding a new board.  I love my Topre 45g board and found the Topre 55g just a bit too heavy.  If I could build my own keyboard, it would be Topre 49g.  :cool:  I believe, from what I've read, that the stock Clears are slightly stronger than a Torpre 55g, so I imagine the 65g Koreans will be perfect.

Im pretty sure I remember reading somewhere the EK lube is only suitable for stabilizers (ie. not inside a switch).
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: tricheboars on Wed, 05 February 2014, 14:20:48
i just bought a lube kit from originitive and it shipped out today. it came with the lube you want. i bought the kit after JD told me lubing switches with Super Lube is a mortal sin.

i didnt know i should break in the clears for a bit before modding them.  i wouldnt mind doing that if it is worth it but i think it would be easier to mod the switches without having them soldered to a plate. but whateves. i want the best keyboard experience. i can wait.
How did you know that your Orginative stuff shipped? I bought from there about a week ago (springs, stickers, etc) and only got notification for purchasing. No shipping info.

i didnt do jack **** except order it and got the shipping notice today. i think i ordered the lube kit and springs on sat or sun.  perhaps sherry just had the things i requested in stock so he could ship right away?
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: Photoelectric on Wed, 05 February 2014, 14:27:56
Much prefer stock clears to ergo clears
Definitely all preference, I'd recommend anyone try the stock clears before the ergos, ya never know what might strike your fancy!

Same here.  Big stock Clears fan and also like light switches like Browns, Blues, 55g MX Whites, etc. for reference.  Don't care for ergo-Clears.  Definitely try stock Clears first to get an idea.

i was 100% set on making ergo clears with 62g korean springs for my ergodox until i read this thread. what didnt you like about the ergo clears?  were they too light? what didnt you like about them?

The stock Clear spring has pretty neat properties, which makes the force profile steeper than other springs:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46449

(http://www.knizefamily.net/images/pool/spring-rate-chart.jpg)

Up to the actuation point, stock Clears are fairly light.  Past the actuation point, it becomes a lot more difficult to depress the switch and bottom out.  The result is that it's easy to float just past the actuation point and move on to the next switch.  I almost never bottom out on stock Clears and can touch-type quickly.  Lubricated stock Clears (with Victorinox oil on springs and some in the central shaft of the Clear stem is inserted and a tiny bit of Krytox mixture for the stems) are my favorite to type on.  The stock spring also helps the switches rebound quickly.

Now with lighter 62g springs, I've experienced a "wobbly" feeling when typing, the rebound was longer and felt a little sluggish, the typing sound was a lot clunkier and louder, and it actually felt like more work for my fingers, because it was difficult not to bottom out when typing quickly at ~90 WPM, for reference.  It's a personal preference, as everyone's fingers/hands/typing methods vary, but ergo-Clears have not impressed me.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: strict on Wed, 05 February 2014, 15:04:00
I bought a Cherry Clear based keyboard, some 65g Korean springs and also just ordered the MechLube 2 from Elite Keyboards.  Hopefully that lube is good enough.  I am looking for something in between Browns and Blacks, perhaps closer to Blues, so I don't have a problem modding a new board.  I love my Topre 45g board and found the Topre 55g just a bit too heavy.  If I could build my own keyboard, it would be Topre 49g.  :cool:  I believe, from what I've read, that the stock Clears are slightly stronger than a Torpre 55g, so I imagine the 65g Koreans will be perfect.

Im pretty sure I remember reading somewhere the EK lube is only suitable for stabilizers (ie. not inside a switch).

I knew I remembered reading that EK lube should not be used inside the switch - Source (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34332.msg674103#msg674103)
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 05 February 2014, 15:08:24
Much prefer stock clears to ergo clears
Definitely all preference, I'd recommend anyone try the stock clears before the ergos, ya never know what might strike your fancy!

Same here.  Big stock Clears fan and also like light switches like Browns, Blues, 55g MX Whites, etc. for reference.  Don't care for ergo-Clears.  Definitely try stock Clears first to get an idea.

i was 100% set on making ergo clears with 62g korean springs for my ergodox until i read this thread. what didnt you like about the ergo clears?  were they too light? what didnt you like about them?

ah... doesn't matter.. if you don't like it.. switch them back.. the springs are $10.. hardly an issue to "find out" if you like stock vs ergo..
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: 1pq on Wed, 05 February 2014, 15:23:58
There's also an argument to be made that you should use the stock clears for a few months to break them in as well. I'd skipped this step before and regretted it.

I'm in that phase currently. I've figured out, though, since I use colemak, that I can switch a certain set of stems to the home row, and then switch them around to an infrequently used part of the board (F keys, for instance, or nav keys--since I'm on a Mac). This way, I can wear down all the stems evenly, and in a much quicker time period. It is kind of a pain swapping out stems though  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: robertsig on Wed, 05 February 2014, 15:49:13
Quote
Im pretty sure I remember reading somewhere the EK lube is only suitable for stabilizers (ie. not inside a switch).
Quote
I knew I remembered reading that EK lube should not be used inside the switch - Source (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34332.msg674103#msg674103)
Well, I bought the MechLube 2.  Is that different than the one not recommended?
http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=access,misc&pid=mechlube_2 (http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=access,misc&pid=mechlube_2)

The chart above is what led me to ordering the Korean 65g springs.  If I wanted something as light as the 62g springs, I might as well just buy stock Browns.  Perhaps I'm missing something (again!), but I see no point of modding Cherry Clears with Originative 62g springs, let alone anything lighter.  And as someone who feels Reds/Browns are too light, this led me to my latest project of trying 65g Originative springs + Cherry Clears.  I ordered this board:
http://www.banggood.com/Keycool-87-White-Mechanical-Gaming-Keyboard-Cherry-MX-Clear-Switch-p-89115.html (http://www.banggood.com/Keycool-87-White-Mechanical-Gaming-Keyboard-Cherry-MX-Clear-Switch-p-89115.html)
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: tricheboars on Wed, 05 February 2014, 16:47:51
well 62g korean springs seem to be a geekhack favorite.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: Comment on Wed, 05 February 2014, 20:06:45
well 62g korean springs seem to be a geekhack favorite.
Also I believe korean springs are measured by the bottom out force though I could be wrong. So the 62g arent as heavy as they sound.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 05 February 2014, 21:14:39
well 62g korean springs seem to be a geekhack favorite.
Also I believe korean springs are measured by the bottom out force though I could be wrong. So the 62g arent as heavy as they sound.

the 62 after-market springs are virtually identical to stock brown/blue springs.

i doubt anyone could "feel" the difference if they were swapped...

Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: Comment on Wed, 05 February 2014, 21:17:49
well 62g korean springs seem to be a geekhack favorite.
Also I believe korean springs are measured by the bottom out force though I could be wrong. So the 62g arent as heavy as they sound.

the 62 after-market springs are virtually identical to stock brown/blue springs.

i doubt anyone could "feel" the difference if they were swapped...
Ill be doing a clear mod and then thinking about going to ergo clear but im not sure how ill feel about how heavy they are since I havent typed on a heavy switch for an extended period of time. Should be interesting.  :D
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: kenmai9 on Wed, 05 February 2014, 21:23:39
Cus they's the best
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: Comment on Wed, 05 February 2014, 21:24:09
Cus they's the best
Dat in depth response :p
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 05 February 2014, 21:27:56
Cus they's the best
Dat in depth response :p

oh wise kenmai,  tell us more.....(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/016.gif)
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: 1pq on Wed, 05 February 2014, 21:39:15
Cus they's the best
Dat in depth response :p

oh wise kenmai,  tell us more.....
Show Image
(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/016.gif)


Yeah you provide us with a lot of great unbiased info as well
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 05 February 2014, 21:40:39
Cus they's the best
Dat in depth response :p

oh wise kenmai,  tell us more.....
Show Image
(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/016.gif)


Yeah you provide us with a lot of great unbiased info as well

Me...?  Why I'd never... Preposterous  (http://www.emotasia.com/wp-content/uploads/totally-naughty-panda-emoticon-2.gif)
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: TheSoulhunter on Wed, 05 February 2014, 22:21:50
67g and 70g FTW!
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: 1pq on Wed, 05 February 2014, 22:34:53
Just for reference--what's the bottom-out force of a stock clear spring? 100g?
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 05 February 2014, 22:47:31
Just for reference--what's the bottom-out force of a stock clear spring? 100g?

there's that graph posted above. ^^^
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: Findecanor on Thu, 06 February 2014, 01:53:51
There's also an argument to be made that you should use the stock clears for a few months to break them in as well. I'd skipped this step before and regretted it.
Also to break yourself in ... or I mean, get used to typing on them.
You don't have to press them as far down as other switches.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: tricheboars on Thu, 06 February 2014, 11:47:27
i am a bottom out guy. this is why i want to do the 62g swap on the stock clear switches. however if i put SA caps on the board i shouldnt bottom out since SA is so loud and incompatible with o-rings.  i have been playing with the idea of putting a dampening foam on the plate so that i can rock SA caps in the office. not sure how i will do this though. perhaps cut up the dampening pads i got from EliteKeyboards and stick them to the plate? not sure...
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 06 February 2014, 11:53:43
I put lubed stock Clears into dustinhxc's Poker X that I sold him (also plate mounted them), and he tells me that he never even uses his Topre board anymore. :D
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 06 February 2014, 11:57:12
I put lubed stock Clears into dustinhxc's Poker X that I sold him (also plate mounted them), and he tells me that he never even uses his Topre board anymore. :D

:eek:

jd what lube do you recommend with stock clears? And you follow the lubing guide?
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 06 February 2014, 12:08:42
I put lubed stock Clears into dustinhxc's Poker X that I sold him (also plate mounted them), and he tells me that he never even uses his Topre board anymore. :D

:eek:

jd what lube do you recommend with stock clears? And you follow the lubing guide?

For lubing switches, ALWAYS, ALWAYS use Krytox. Did I mention Krytox?

I lube the side sliders of the stems which come into contact with the bottom housing with a mixture of 205 grease and 103 oil. Then I put a drop of Victorinox multi-tool oil on the top and bottom of the spring. Stickers are not worth messing with, IMO.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: Photoelectric on Thu, 06 February 2014, 13:29:30
^That's basically what I do too.  Lubricate the spring with Victorinox Multitool Oil (the bottle has a long dropper cone extension, and a spring fits right over it, so it's easy to lubricate springs one by one) and drop a tiny bit of oil into the stem shafts: gets rid of any ping / spring resonance and makes the switches feel more "unified".  Then small amount of Krytox along the sides of the bottom housing where the stem slides, and a tiny bit on the front of the stem.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: dustinhxc on Thu, 06 February 2014, 13:41:27
Never tried different springs but I love my stock clears so much! Best switch ever used.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: riotonthebay on Thu, 06 February 2014, 13:42:36
Never tried different springs but I love my stock clears so much! Best switch ever used.

Compare it to thorpe. Do it now.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 06 February 2014, 15:44:53
Never tried different springs but I love my stock clears so much! Best switch ever used.

Compare it to thorpe. Do it now.

I already told you, he can't, because he doesn't even use Thorpe anymore. :))
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 06 February 2014, 15:49:42
Never tried different springs but I love my stock clears so much! Best switch ever used.

Compare it to thorpe. Do it now.

I already told you, he can't, because he doesn't even use Thorpe anymore. :))

Clearly dustin only has topre boards now to display his novelty caps.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: Glod on Thu, 06 February 2014, 16:00:14
been using 62g ergo clears all week for the first time on an entire keyboard, its a bit heavy for me but im going to stick with it for a few more days.....

i know people aren't always fans of browns, but for those who like light and tactile switches, something similar to 45g topre (similar, not the same!) id highly suggest trying out browns krytox combo lubed (a must with these) with 55g korean springs if people want something lighter than ergo clears but tactile. you can put 55g in clears but even with lube they feel "sticky". you would think the 55g spring would feel the same as the stock brown spring but it does not.

edit with pic
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3667/12314010114_3477d957f3.jpg) (http://flic.kr/p/jL9wcd)

the pinky keys are the browns i speak of and the clears are 62g
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 06 February 2014, 16:06:15
been using 62g ergo clears all week for the first time on an entire keyboard, its a bit heavy for me but im going to stick with it for a few more days.....

i know people aren't always fans of browns, but for those who like light and tactile switches, something similar to 45g topre (similar, not the same!) id highly suggest trying out browns krytox combo lubed (a must with these) with 55g korean springs if people want something lighter than ergo clears but tactile. you can put 55g in clears but even with lube they feel "sticky". you would think the 55g spring would feel the same as the stock brown spring but it does not.

edit with pic
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3667/12314010114_3477d957f3.jpg) (http://flic.kr/p/jL9wcd)

the pinky keys are the browns i speak of and the clears are 62g


browns are barely tactile... with lube.. they're not tactile at all.. just a slight swoop feeling...


same goes for clears.. if you lube the 2x stem legs, it just doesn't feel tactile.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: dustinhxc on Thu, 06 February 2014, 16:10:38
Never tried different springs but I love my stock clears so much! Best switch ever used.

Compare it to thorpe. Do it now.

I already told you, he can't, because he doesn't even use Thorpe anymore. :))


 :rolleyes: What can I say, I love clears.  ^-^
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: Glod on Thu, 06 February 2014, 16:12:54
been using 62g ergo clears all week for the first time on an entire keyboard, its a bit heavy for me but im going to stick with it for a few more days.....

i know people aren't always fans of browns, but for those who like light and tactile switches, something similar to 45g topre (similar, not the same!) id highly suggest trying out browns krytox combo lubed (a must with these) with 55g korean springs if people want something lighter than ergo clears but tactile. you can put 55g in clears but even with lube they feel "sticky". you would think the 55g spring would feel the same as the stock brown spring but it does not.

edit with pic
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3667/12314010114_3477d957f3.jpg) (http://flic.kr/p/jL9wcd)

the pinky keys are the browns i speak of and the clears are 62g


browns are barely tactile... with lube.. they're not tactile at all.. just a slight swoop feeling...


same goes for clears.. if you lube the 2x stem legs, it just doesn't feel tactile.

well dont overdo it on the lube, people do th is i suspect, overlubing works well with reds and blacks but on tactile switches you really want to take it easy, just dab dab done. i know lubing guides basically say lube all the things, and i agree with this for like reds, but on clears and browns i rather just lube the rails and springs and call it done. maybe thats why my 55g clears didnt work out because i didnt want to go crazy on the lube
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: tricheboars on Thu, 06 February 2014, 16:31:32
here i am thinking that 62g korean springs are similar to blues or browns. GLOD is making me second guess myself.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: Photoelectric on Thu, 06 February 2014, 16:34:08
here i am thinking that 62g korean springs are similar to blues or browns. GLOD is making me second guess myself.

They are the most similar  :mad:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54366.msg1217975#msg1217975

(compare light blue with dark blue)
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: Glod on Thu, 06 February 2014, 16:48:06
here i am thinking that 62g korean springs are similar to blues or browns. GLOD is making me second guess myself.

I didn't mean to give that idea!

62g are similar to brown springs, but clears sliders are like super holy-**** tactile, like when i first felt clears i don't know if anyone else was like me but i was surprised on just how tactile they are and i personally think the tactility makes it seem heavier.

But that's just me and my weak fingers. I like super light switches honestly, my favorite switch is actually blue switches with 45g korean springs; every time i type on those i actually start to cry a little because how good they are for me , but my wife complains about the sound they make so i decided to give full on ergo clear a shot and after many hours doing the soldering and lubing i have to say crap i don't know if i can commit to this just because she doesnt like the sound of my favorite switch
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 06 February 2014, 16:49:16
here i am thinking that 62g korean springs are similar to blues or browns. GLOD is making me second guess myself.

They are the most similar  :mad:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54366.msg1217975#msg1217975

(compare light blue with dark blue)

no way you can tell by hand given that graph...

Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 06 February 2014, 16:50:16
here i am thinking that 62g korean springs are similar to blues or browns. GLOD is making me second guess myself.

I didn't mean to give that idea!

62g are similar to brown springs, but clears sliders are like super holy-**** tactile, like when i first felt clears i don't know if anyone else was like me but i was surprised on just how tactile they are and i personally think the tactility makes it seem heavier.

But that's just me and my weak fingers. I like super light switches honestly, my favorite switch is actually blue switches with 45g korean springs; every time i type on those i actually start to cry a little because how good they are for me , but my wife complains about the sound they make so i decided to give full on ergo clear a shot and after many hours doing the soldering and lubing i have to say crap i don't know if i can commit to this just because she doesnt like the sound of my favorite switch

I totally agree super light blue is the ideal light-switch..
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: daerid on Thu, 06 February 2014, 16:57:10
I don't even know why I'm getting blues on my latest ErgoDox, clears are "clearly" the best.

*ducks*
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: riotonthebay on Thu, 06 February 2014, 17:00:09
I'm putting jailhouse blues in my JD40 :thumb:
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 06 February 2014, 17:05:46
I don't even know why I'm getting blues on my latest ErgoDox, clears are "clearly" the best.

*ducks*

No..........?

Blue is most technologically-advanced switch... an engineering masterpiece.

-reduced friction points

-audible click to enhance tactile response
----  this feature is impressive because it increases the perceived tactility of the switch WITHOUT increasing the actual perceived FRICTION...


MX Blue is Genius....
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: daerid on Thu, 06 February 2014, 17:10:32
I don't even know why I'm getting blues on my latest ErgoDox, clears are "clearly" the best.

*ducks*

No..........?

Blue is most technologically-advanced switch... an engineering masterpiece.

-reduced friction points

-audible click to enhance tactile response
----  this feature is impressive because it increases the perceived tactility of the switch WITHOUT increasing the actual perceived FRICTION...


MX Blue is Genius....

Idunno, I just like the feel of Clears better.. although... I might try swapping the springs in the blues/clears... almost a Green, but with the force curve of the stock Clear switch.... hmmmmmm
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: tbc on Thu, 06 February 2014, 17:58:57
i made a single blue with clear spring.

i almost passed out from joy.

Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: HPE1000 on Thu, 06 February 2014, 18:16:07
Well I lubed and spring swapped brand new clears without trying stock clears or letting them break in. I did everything wrong apparently.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: kenmai9 on Thu, 06 February 2014, 20:53:36
Well I lubed and spring swapped brand new clears without trying stock clears or letting them break in. I did everything wrong apparently.

Who cares bro  my first touch with clears was 62g ergo clears. I upgraded some of the springs to 65g/67g in the middle of the board. feels good man. i think 65g is my favorite out of the three. but 62g is pretty awesome too.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 06 February 2014, 21:05:41
Well I lubed and spring swapped brand new clears without trying stock clears or letting them break in. I did everything wrong apparently.

Who cares bro  my first touch with clears was 62g ergo clears. I upgraded some of the springs to 65g/67g in the middle of the board. feels good man. i think 65g is my favorite out of the three. but 62g is pretty awesome too.

for whatever reason the 65 felt -significantly heavier than the 62..
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: robertsig on Thu, 06 February 2014, 22:06:50
I can't imagine 65g's feel heavy, not compared to stock Clears.  I'll mod my board with 65's once I get them.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: Photoelectric on Thu, 06 February 2014, 22:20:10
No I can agree with that observation.  I've tried 65g Clears and they did feel significantly springier / tougher than 62g.  Again, stock Clears are not that heavy to actuation.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: n0rvig on Fri, 07 February 2014, 00:13:10
I'm loving this discussion. I'm going to be assembling my first batch of Ergo-clears this weekend. So I'm excited to hear about all the options and preferences. I naively thought I was going to pop in some 55g springs and live happily ever after. My new plan is to start with stock, and then start lubing & swapping springs until I end up in cherry paradise.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: daetsid on Fri, 07 February 2014, 09:28:04
I am a big fan of stock clears. I will lub them and have lubbed stock clears.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: Lastpilot on Fri, 07 February 2014, 09:32:15
:] Added to switch review directory!
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: tricheboars on Fri, 07 February 2014, 10:19:47
what are the strength of the stock clears springs? 65g?  70g?

i am now thinking i may try the stock clears i ordered for a month or two before attempting to lube them unless my fingers get real tired real quick.  i am a blues man myself who disliked browns.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: daetsid on Fri, 07 February 2014, 10:29:10
what are the strength of the stock clears springs? 65g?  70g?

i am now thinking i may try the stock clears i ordered for a month or two before attempting to lube them unless my fingers get real tired real quick.  i am a blues man myself who disliked browns.

Stock clears are pretty stiff. I have blues, blacks and clears and the stiffest, by far, is the clear.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: TheSoulhunter on Fri, 07 February 2014, 11:04:41
what are the strength of the stock clears springs? 65g?  70g?

i am now thinking i may try the stock clears i ordered for a month or two before attempting to lube them unless my fingers get real tired real quick.  i am a blues man myself who disliked browns.

Around 95g afaik...
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: mkawa on Fri, 07 February 2014, 11:07:58
Ahh, thanks.

Does anyone know where I can pick up Krytox now that the Geekhack store is closed?  I don't need much, right?

Try ebay for the Krytox.

actually please don't buy krytox on ebay. for the prices i'm seeing, it's most likely cut with another substance. i can sell krytox directly, and i'll make an announcement shortly on who will be selling geekhackers krytox kits

Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Fri, 07 February 2014, 11:23:32
Ahh, thanks.

Does anyone know where I can pick up Krytox now that the Geekhack store is closed?  I don't need much, right?

Try ebay for the Krytox.

actually please don't buy krytox on ebay. for the prices i'm seeing, it's most likely cut with another substance. i can sell krytox directly, and i'll make an announcement shortly on who will be selling geekhackers krytox kits



i know mechanicalkeyboards.com was asking about getting into lube the other day maybe they could sell it to, might reach a wider audience.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 07 February 2014, 11:33:10
Ahh, thanks.

Does anyone know where I can pick up Krytox now that the Geekhack store is closed?  I don't need much, right?

Try ebay for the Krytox.

actually please don't buy krytox on ebay. for the prices i'm seeing, it's most likely cut with another substance. i can sell krytox directly, and i'll make an announcement shortly on who will be selling geekhackers krytox kits



i know mechanicalkeyboards.com was asking about getting into lube the other day maybe they could sell it to, might reach a wider audience.

No... mkawa will buy all of the production and become the next lube-kingpin and corner the market.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: Glod on Fri, 07 February 2014, 20:11:34
this thread shows modifying cherry switches is awesome. Now if I could just get my wife to think of this as a legit hobby........
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: tbc on Sat, 08 February 2014, 00:41:52
what are the strength of the stock clears springs? 65g?  70g?

i am now thinking i may try the stock clears i ordered for a month or two before attempting to lube them unless my fingers get real tired real quick.  i am a blues man myself who disliked browns.

Around 95g afaik...

that's pretty close.   they're as heavy as hell.

but you're a silly duck if you intentionally bottom out on clears.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: dustinhxc on Sat, 08 February 2014, 00:43:29
Ahh, thanks.

Does anyone know where I can pick up Krytox now that the Geekhack store is closed?  I don't need much, right?

Try ebay for the Krytox.

actually please don't buy krytox on ebay. for the prices i'm seeing, it's most likely cut with another substance. i can sell krytox directly, and i'll make an announcement shortly on who will be selling geekhackers krytox kits

Thank god! I've been waiting for months. :)
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: gameaholic on Sat, 08 February 2014, 10:33:13
Crap.  This thread just increased the number of spring/switch combinations I have to try.  Next up on my list are 55g whites, then 55g lubed vintage blacks, lubed vintage blacks with clear springs, greens stems with clear springs, and stock clears. 

Out of all the mx switches I have tried so far I love my unlubbed ergo clears (red springs) I have been using for a year or so.  They do seem to have broken in quite nicely.  A close second are reds.  I'm trying to find my favorite tactile combo (so far unlubbed ergo clears), linear (so far stock reds), and clicky (I have tried blues, jailhouse blues, and greens but didn't like any of them).  I do seem to prefer light switches but now that I know that clear springs are pretty light up to the actuation point I may have to give them a try. 

Is there a place to buy clear springs?
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: 1pq on Sat, 08 February 2014, 15:02:14
You don't have to like clicky! Personally, I'm not a fan of blues or BS. Tactile and linear all the way!
I don't think there's a way to buy clear springs on their own. After I do the ergo clear mod on my filco, though, I might not need mine, in which case I'd happily send them to you.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: daerid on Sat, 08 February 2014, 15:21:09
what are the strength of the stock clears springs? 65g?  70g?

i am now thinking i may try the stock clears i ordered for a month or two before attempting to lube them unless my fingers get real tired real quick.  i am a blues man myself who disliked browns.

The thing about stock clears is that they have a significantly different force curve than most other Cherry springs. The "ramp" of stiffness is much stiffer. At the top of the stroke they're quite soft, but rapidly increase in stiffness as you depress the switch. IMO this gives them a much softer feel than the other Cherry switches.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: 1pq on Sat, 08 February 2014, 15:38:58
Other heavy switches, you mean, right? Because even before actuation they're much heavier than "MX light" switches (blues, browns, reds).
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 08 February 2014, 15:53:06
what are the strength of the stock clears springs? 65g?  70g?

i am now thinking i may try the stock clears i ordered for a month or two before attempting to lube them unless my fingers get real tired real quick.  i am a blues man myself who disliked browns.

The thing about stock clears is that they have a significantly different force curve than most other Cherry springs. The "ramp" of stiffness is much stiffer. At the top of the stroke they're quite soft, but rapidly increase in stiffness as you depress the switch. IMO this gives them a much softer feel than the other Cherry switches.

i wouldn't call that "significantly" different..
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: daerid on Sat, 08 February 2014, 17:19:22
i wouldn't call that "significantly" different..

Tomato, Tomahto.

Other heavy switches, you mean, right? Because even before actuation they're much heavier than "MX light" switches (blues, browns, reds).

I would attribute that more to the increased tactility of the stem rather than the spring.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: tricheboars on Sat, 08 February 2014, 17:25:47
i am a bottom out guy so i am going to get tired on cherry stock springs i think. hell my fingers get tired when i type on BS so i think clears are going to do the same to me. i dont know i will have to test but i think i might save myself sometime and finger pain by just modding the switches as soon as i get them. i already got a lube kit from originitive with krytox, 62g springs, tools needed for the mod, and stickers.  the only thing i lack is a switch tool which i hope to get with the titanium switch tool group buy (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54168.0 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54168.0)).
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: gameaholic on Sat, 08 February 2014, 19:00:07
You don't have to like clicky! Personally, I'm not a fan of blues or BS. Tactile and linear all the way!
I don't think there's a way to buy clear springs on their own. After I do the ergo clear mod on my filco, though, I might not need mine, in which case I'd happily send them to you.

Sweet!  pm sent with shipping address. 
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: Comment on Sat, 08 February 2014, 19:52:30
You don't have to like clicky! Personally, I'm not a fan of blues or BS. Tactile and linear all the way!
I don't think there's a way to buy clear springs on their own. After I do the ergo clear mod on my filco, though, I might not need mine, in which case I'd happily send them to you.

Sweet!  pm sent with shipping address.
Jumped on that opportunity!
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: gameaholic on Sun, 09 February 2014, 19:31:51
Yeah until this thread I didn't know about the force curve of clear springs.  I like both blacks for their fast reset and reds for their lightness so clear springs sound perfect for a linear switch.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: ideus on Sun, 09 February 2014, 20:03:04
what are the strength of the stock clears springs? 65g?  70g?

i am now thinking i may try the stock clears i ordered for a month or two before attempting to lube them unless my fingers get real tired real quick.  i am a blues man myself who disliked browns.

Stock clears are pretty stiff. I have blues, blacks and clears and the stiffest, by far, is the clear.


And which one do you prefer the most?


I have reds and browns and thinking to try a board with either blues or clears.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: robertsig on Mon, 10 February 2014, 21:03:07
What's the best way to remove/change the springs from a keyboard with the proper switches that you want to keep already in place?  I have a MX Clear based board already and don't want to mess with more than necessary.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: 1pq on Mon, 10 February 2014, 21:06:41
The springs lie inside the switches. If you have a pcb-mounted board or a plate that allows customization, you can lift off the top of the switch with a variety of tools (like binder clips or tweezers; check youtube for some vids on how to do this). If you have a normal plate-mounted board that doesn't allow for customization, you'll have to desolder everything in order to remove the switches and open them up.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: robertsig on Mon, 10 February 2014, 21:25:04
I have a Keycool board.  How can I tell?
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: ideus on Mon, 10 February 2014, 21:28:56
What part of the switch should be above the plate to tell if it is moodable with no desoldering?
Title: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: riotonthebay on Mon, 10 February 2014, 21:34:07
What part of the switch should be above the plate to tell if it is moodable with no desoldering?

It's not a matter of how much of the switch is above the plate - they all sit at the same level. There would be cutouts in the plate on the sides of each switch that would allow the small clasps on the switch top to lift to the side and up.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: 1pq on Mon, 10 February 2014, 21:38:02
This is true, but I just want point out that my custom aluminum plate seems to sit a decent amount lower than the stock filco one. Perhaps I'm just imagining things, though.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: robertsig on Mon, 10 February 2014, 21:43:31
Here it is.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 10 February 2014, 21:49:20
With a Keycool you will have to desolder each switch in order to open it.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: Pacifist on Mon, 10 February 2014, 21:53:55
Pretty much every non community made board requires desoldering to remove switches
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: 1pq on Mon, 10 February 2014, 21:55:19
That isn't made by cherry, or isn't a Poker, or an ergodox. So, not really :p
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: robertsig on Mon, 10 February 2014, 21:58:42
Oh that sucks.  I don't think I'm willing to go through that surgery.

Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: 1pq on Mon, 10 February 2014, 22:05:06
If you don't want to mess around, you should buy a G80-3000 for cheap and muck around. You won't have to get your hands dirty with soldering, and you can play around with springs and lube and such.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: ideus on Mon, 10 February 2014, 22:11:09
OK so my Poker X pcb mounted switches are good candidates for moding...hehe.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: robertsig on Tue, 11 February 2014, 05:28:43
What is a good TKL board to buy where it is easy to change all the switches to clears?  I bought a board with Clears built-in, not knowing it would be difficult to open the switches up.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: 1pq on Tue, 11 February 2014, 08:15:13
I don't know of any PCB mounted TKLs, but you might be able to pick up a custom TKL with a plate that allows for customization in the classifieds. You could also pick up a G80-1800, which is closer to a TK layout.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Tue, 11 February 2014, 08:20:27
What is a good TKL board to buy where it is easy to change all the switches to clears?  I bought a board with Clears built-in, not knowing it would be difficult to open the switches up.


You could buy the phantom listed here http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54030.0
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: 1pq on Tue, 11 February 2014, 08:23:33
I think the point was so he didn't have to solder, though.

Oh that sucks.  I don't think I'm willing to go through that surgery.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Tue, 11 February 2014, 08:27:20
I think the point was so he didn't have to solder, though.

Oh that sucks.  I don't think I'm willing to go through that surgery.

The phantom allows for switch top removal.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: 1pq on Tue, 11 February 2014, 08:28:58
Oops, I didn't click on the link and thought you were liking him to a PCB, not an assembled board with a phantom. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: robertsig on Tue, 11 February 2014, 09:14:00
Well, I already bought the keyboard.  It would probably come out to the same price if I just found someone here was was more handy with a soldering iron than me, and pay him.  :)
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: 1pq on Wed, 19 February 2014, 10:36:51
I just swapped some of the stock clears on my custom filco with 62g korean springs, and I have to say...this is the most excited I've been about a keyboard since I tried topre. Know that I'm a little biased, since I usually prefer lighter keyswitches, but I much prefer 62g springs to the stock clear ones. They make the switch feel much more tactile.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: robertsig on Wed, 19 February 2014, 11:27:41
Know that I'm a little biased, since I usually prefer lighter keyswitches, but I much prefer 62g springs to the stock clear ones. They make the switch feel much more tactile.
The 62g Korean springs ARE lighter than the stock clear ones.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 19 February 2014, 11:29:00
Know that I'm a little biased, since I usually prefer lighter keyswitches, but I much prefer 62g springs to the stock clear ones. They make the switch feel much more tactile.
The 62g Korean springs ARE lighter than the stock clear ones.

Very much so. 62g Korean springs are almost equivalent to stock blue/red/brown springs.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: riotonthebay on Wed, 19 February 2014, 11:31:05
... He realizes that. That's why he's saying that he's biased :).
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: 1pq on Wed, 19 February 2014, 11:31:11
Know that I'm a little biased, since I usually prefer lighter keyswitches, but I much prefer 62g springs to the stock clear ones. They make the switch feel much more tactile.
The 62g Korean springs ARE lighter than the stock clear ones.

Exactly. That's why I'm saying I might be slightly biased in preferring them, because I generally enjoy lighter switches more.
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: robertsig on Thu, 06 March 2014, 19:10:44
I had a user on GH unsolder the switches for me on my new Keycool Cherry MX Clear based board and put on 65g Korean springs.  Wow...this is easily the best Cherry based keyboard I've used.  67g might be slightly better, but this is fine.  I still prefer Topre, but I now finally have a Cherry board that is sufficient to use as a backup.

Very nice feeling for those who want a bump before it breaks (a la Topre, a la buckling spring).  Although compared to Topre, it still feels somewhat cheap, but not as much as Reds/Browns (which feel like a Playskool toy)
Title: Re: Why Ergo Clears?
Post by: xuanwumen on Fri, 07 March 2014, 05:26:15
I had a user on GH unsolder the switches for me on my new Keycool Cherry MX Clear based board and put on 65g Korean springs.  Wow...this is easily the best Cherry based keyboard I've used.  67g might be slightly better, but this is fine.  I still prefer Topre, but I now finally have a Cherry board that is sufficient to use as a backup.

Very nice feeling for those who want a bump before it breaks (a la Topre, a la buckling spring).  Although compared to Topre, it still feels somewhat cheap, but not as much as Reds/Browns (which feel like a Playskool toy)


Feel happy to see the keycool mx clear board can be useful to you.