Keyset | Payment Status | Product Status |
GMK Art | Paid | In Production Queue |
GMK Terror Below | Paid | Delivered to Mechs & Co |
GMK Truffelschwein | Paid | In production queue |
GMK Tako | Paid | Shipping to vendors |
GMK Terror | Unpaid | - |
GMK Tiramisu | Unpaid | - |
GMK NTD | Partially Paid | - |
GMK Arctic | Unpaid | - |
GMK Mercury | Unpaid | - |
GMK Gladiator | Unpaid | - |
GMK Cream Matcha | Unpaid | - |
GMK Cinder | Unpaid | - |
GMK Bordeaux | Unpaid | - |
GMK Regal | Unpaid | - |
GMK Beige Addon | Unpaid | - |
GMK WoB Essentials | Unpaid | - |
MW Heresey | Paid | A-Stock in Transit |
MW Pluto | Unpaid | - |
MW Stone Age | Unpaid | - |
MW Cultured | Unpaid | - |
MW Barista | Unpaid | - |
MW Fuyu | Paid | Shipped to M&C |
MW Pavilion | Unpaid | - |
MW Commute | Unpaid | - |
MW Hayastan | Unpaid | - |
DMK Rubber | Paid | In transit |
Keyboard | Payment Status |
Jex 3CV2 | Paid |
Bulwark | Unpaid |
Hubble65 | Partially Paid - Final Invoice still owed |
XOX70 | Paid |
Saevus Cor | Unpaid/Cancelled |
Loki65 | Unpaid/Cancelled |
Norvus60 | Paid - Status Unknown (Supposedly in M&C Warehouse) |
I intend to get an update in person.
I intend to get an update in person.
let us know how that goes! lmao ;D
There's no reason all of the risk is on the customer.But we're not customers. We're a group of people who essentially created their own Kickstarter-ecosystem without diversification to help keep connection hubs (between manu-enduser) afloat.
these companiesIs there any reason to believe that "these companies" are anything else than small endeavours started by enthusiasts like yourself? You might have the best intentions, but (1) you could be just bad at running a company like this and not know it (ever heard of Dunning-Kruger?), or (2) you could be overwhelmed and stressed out from all the work, i.e. unable to handle the workload and unable to pay enough to hire someone to help you, or (3) perhaps one or more close family relatives die so you stop caring, or (4) perhaps you chop your leg off with a chainsaw (literally happened to a friend of mine 2 months ago) and so your priorities change and you neglect the company - perhaps you hire someone to run it, who doesn't care about the hobby, who ****s up big time, or, or, or.
But we're not customers. We're a group of people who essentially created their own Kickstarter-ecosystem without diversification to help keep connection hubs (between manu-enduser) afloat.
Is there any reason to believe that "these companies" are anything else than small endeavours started by enthusiasts like yourself?
They're not faceless corporations, they're people like me.If you were to go on r/mechmarket and pay a "person like you" some amount of money for keycaps and never receive them, are you going to let it go because they're just a person, or are you going to attempt to get your money back just like you would with any other faceless corporation? We can't keep treating these businesses like chums who bear no obligations to the people from whom they have taken money.
(1) you could be just bad at running a company like this and not know it (ever heard of Dunning-Kruger?), or (2) you could be overwhelmed and stressed out from all the work, i.e. unable to handle the workload and unable to pay enough to hire someone to help you, or (3) perhaps one or more close family relatives die so you stop caring, or (4) perhaps you chop your leg off with a chainsaw
I'd be really curious to know more about what happened here
I was not able to dispute the ones for GMK tiramisu, heresy, and GMK Bordeaux but they said that they will take a note and consider it in their investigation. actually there is a good chance that amex will come through for those too. this is very unfortunate because it is going to really make starting another business or even getting a credit card difficult for them. they really should have worked with geekhack, mechmarket and us. I have quite a few different credit cards but thankfully for all transactions with them I had used amex which really takes care of me or at least has so far. so i already got reimbursed for dmk rubber and MW barista and I might even get back my money for heresy, and tiramisu and Boudreaux.Hope you eventually get you money back there. I think that even if they worked with geekhack etc and did everything they could by the end of it some people still wouldn't have gotten back their money or the things they ordered but the lack of communication as described is truly shocking. It's like they have completely given up on trying to help people, it seems they have done nothing to try and save the situation here (as said stuff like discounting stuff in stock and then using that money to refund people or fulfill orders) which is selfish and horrible to the people that bought from them.
The announcement of their discord that they just put up is hilarious. It doesn't answer any questions or give any info, it just asked us all to sit back and take it as it has been uncomfortable for them.
another one bites the dust. im lucky i got out unscathed since monochrome was my last GB i did with them. i feel bad for anyone else still caught in the rubble
Vala's ponzi scheme will probably collapse soon after this one
Vala has been giving refund per request fr any GB for any reason so they are on my cool side and i have gmk electric with them which i am really looking forward to as it is, to me, one of the most exciting GMK designs.
Could it be an idea to require GB runners to post the number of extras that each vendor has ordered?
It would still require us to be vigilant, but then at least we could have some comparative reference using community google sheets or whatever.
An LLC or even bankruptcy does not mean that you can take money from consumers and go about your merry life.add me on discord daadaa, I have been trying to get an attorney. discord is just streamline
1 - any money taken from buyers promising a service or product is not shielded by any LLC or bankruptcy, any business that has taken money and has not provided the product and service is required to give the money back. this is why other retailers like vala supply and novelkeys started issuing refund per consumer request last year. report the money that you have paid to FTC now: https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/#/
2 - I an not even sure that these people actually register an LLC. i think the whole thing might be a fraud. in either case we can come together and take them to court. since we all have proof of the orders and payments we can easily get a judge to put a lien on REAL ESTATE or cars they might have. . even the ones in foreign countries can participate and will be covered. I already consulted a lawyer that has done two previous jobs for me here in Pennsylvania.
3 - save the records of your orders and screenshots of their website before they purge it.
4 -there is at least one other person that I know of that has initiated or started some kind of legal action, we need to coordinate. please contact me. via pm and ill give you my phone number. I'm willing to initiate the legal action and pay some fees up to $2000 just to get these bastards but I would like to be joined by everyone who has lost money.
5- the address that they have provided as their business also seems to be not valid. 55 Maple Ave 10921. this doesn't mean that they are sleek. this is proof of their misconduct according to the lawyer i consulted. a business address is required by law to be correct and valid even if its the owners personal residence and it is a rental, it still needs to be the actual place that the business is conducted from and they would be in trouble with IRS if its not.
mechs and co expanded too big too fast
it's no secret at this point that most GBs are making the bulk of their money on extras (or at least were during normal times), where the product can be sold at much higher margin
to predict what sets become hype and what sets don't is impossible, and generally a losing battle -- therein lies the problem
thus the hobby moves on
will we learn this time? no
mechs and co expanded too big too fast
it's no secret at this point that most GBs are making the bulk of their money on extras (or at least were during normal times), where the product can be sold at much higher margin
to predict what sets become hype and what sets don't is impossible, and generally a losing battle -- therein lies the problem
thus the hobby moves on
will we learn this time? no
The problem is not about predicting which set will be hype or not, the problem is some vendors exploiting the GB model an interest free capital that they then squander when sets don’t even hit moq. The GB model should be used by individuals only, not large vendors running multiple simultaneous multi million dollar buys. When you hold no risk, you lose respect for other peoples money, resulting in situations like this.
I'm not sure the GB model is appropriate for individuals either: running a group buy as an individual invites personal liability for the organizer rather than liability for the business. I do think it's wise for group buy runners to protect themselves with a legally registered business.
As for the customer, at least when a group buy is run through a US-based company, there's a paper-trail: the state keeps a record of the business registration, if taxes have been paid, the physical office location (or at least the registered agent), the names of the company officers, etc.
When an individual does a group buy, there's nothing to go off of except who they say they are and their 'status' within the community: I couldn't tell you the first names, let alone the surnames, of the designers whose boards I've purchased. If a private individual's group buy goes sideways, how do you track down the right person to sue, or at least send a complaint to? Joining a group buy through someone whose only identity in the community is DaP00nSl4yer69#4200 on Discord is not any better than going through FooBar Company, LLC.
And maybe (definitely) I'm cynical: I know this community runs on trust, trust that has been taken advantage of. Again. And I know there are people who would entrust esteemed, aged members of the community with their life savings (or at least their rent money) for a year or two. But that doesn't mean we should.
Group buys are almost mandatory for individuals due to the lack of funds required to do an in stock run. It is already an investment to do a GB that isn't a trash project, with prototyping and logistics in terms of sending units to reviewers/content creators (this is optional but really helps selling the 50 or so units that an individual may run) and if something goes wrong that's even more money that's spent, often leading to a runners losing money on projects. It's just too much to ask a person to pay upfront.
QuoteGroup buys are almost mandatory for individuals due to the lack of funds required to do an in stock run. It is already an investment to do a GB that isn't a trash project, with prototyping and logistics in terms of sending units to reviewers/content creators (this is optional but really helps selling the 50 or so units that an individual may run) and if something goes wrong that's even more money that's spent, often leading to a runners losing money on projects. It's just too much to ask a person to pay upfront.
How is it too much to ask that someone wanting to undertake a business venture involving thousands of dollars not create a registered business and take out a business loan to acquire capital? That expectation exists in every other industry. If an enthusiast doesn't have the initial capital to make their design a reality, they shouldn't come crawling to the community for funds; they should go to a bank.
You don't just see group buys/crowdfunding in our keyboard hobby, however. Kickstarter, Indiegogo, and other similar sites have items or goods funded by crowdfunding for other hobbies and industries(video games, clothing, movies, you name it).
We've seen success stories from crowdfunding, we've seen disasters, and everything in between.
I love in-stock products, but just taking out a business loan end ending up with too many in-stock products versus running a GB can also be a problem and cause even the best vendors or businesses to go under, even if a business does their research and gauges interest the best they can.
Say an IC is run for a keyboard, and 500 people state that they would absolutely buy the keyboard. Instead of running a GB, the vendor takes out a business loan to buy 300-500 keyboards, hoping that the interest was genuine and based on whatever market research and projections they did. That vendor only sells 100 keyboards out of the 300-500 they decided to buy because of the IC. They expected to sell more, and now they're left with in-stock products that they have to sell at cost, or more likely, at a loss. Now they're essentially screwed and have to find ways to get the rest of the money to pay that business loan back.
I understand why GBs happen. Runners want to know the exact number (or as close as possible) of individuals that will buy that item, or specifically, put money down for that item. Yes, there can be cancellations, but GBs can give you somewhat realistic expectations of what you're selling in terms of how many you'll sell. If 300 people buy into the GB, you have an actual number (as close as possible) of units to buy. This isn't assuming the costs it takes to prototype, design, and so on.
Also, there are the passion projects like what was said before. There are some GB runners that simply want to create a product and do not care about making money off of it and very likely will be losing money. For those GB runners, a business loan may not be feasible (and also, business loans may be different in other countries. It may be difficult/impossible for someone to obtain a business loan in a country outside of the US versus someone living in the US).
What you said about "letting random individuals that have little experience" run GBs is absolutely true. We all know that the chance of some delay or unforeseen circumstance happening during a GB is basically guaranteed, even if it's a small delay (or a worldwide pandemic), and if someone inexperienced runs into those issues, it could be a disaster. Of course, experienced GB runners can also experience disasters as well, but it obviously makes sense to believe that an experienced GB runner will know what to do more than an inexperienced runner.
I believe it also comes down to the consumer. Understanding what GB/project seems risky, what red flags to look for, and researching before you buy is really important. Does this mean that you can eliminate ALL risks? Absolutely not. Even if all signs point to a successful and well-ran GB, that doesn't mean that no issues will arise.
I don't know if anyone saw the red flags regarding Mechs & Co., because judging by different subreddits, geekhack posts, and various discord discussions and responses, a lot of people didn't see this coming, with some not being able to issue chargebacks or obtain refunds.
I think instead of focusing on GBs being a problem, we should make sure to stress being smart as a consumer, educate on what may be red flags, and MOST importantly of all, strive to improve communication from vendors/GB runners. Making a mistake or having delays, but communicating when those issues happen can go a long way. Yes, there are some things that have to be kept behind the scenes, but perhaps we would be in a different situation if we had better communication from Mechs & Co.
I'm not hating or being critical of your thoughts, CodeCoffee, I just wanted to put my thoughts of the GB model into words.
You don't just see group buys/crowdfunding in our keyboard hobby, however. Kickstarter, Indiegogo, and other similar sites have items or goods funded by crowdfunding for other hobbies and industries(video games, clothing, movies, you name it).
Say an IC is run for a keyboard, and 500 people state that they would absolutely buy the keyboard. Instead of running a GB, the vendor takes out a business loan to buy 300-500 keyboards, hoping that the interest was genuine and based on whatever market research and projections they did. That vendor only sells 100 keyboards out of the 300-500 they decided to buy because of the IC. They expected to sell more, and now they're left with in-stock products that they have to sell at cost, or more likely, at a loss. Now they're essentially screwed and have to find ways to get the rest of the money to pay that business loan back.
I believe it also comes down to the consumer. Understanding what GB/project seems risky, what red flags to look for, and researching before you buy is really important. Does this mean that you can eliminate ALL risks? Absolutely not. Even if all signs point to a successful and well-ran GB, that doesn't mean that no issues will arise.
Another thing to mention is that a lot of the people designing and running gbs have jobs outside of the hobby, Geon is a perfect example of this, the keyboarding part of his Machining business is a side thing, because he was a hobbyist. And he even puts risk when running gbs, take the original F2-84 where he lost $110000 (or at least had to pay that amount) replacing the production errors, let alone the risk he has when selling the instock frog tkl. And he can afford to pay those mistakes off, so Imagine a person who works a 9-5 job, who has to put so much risk, having debt that they can't pay which could ruin them financially, on top of the amount of issues that could go wrong.
That's the thing: every group buy and project is a huge risk for customers. I don't think it's valid to write this situation off as customers not seeing red flags or not doing enough research: as I said in a previous post, if I join a group buy that doesn't look like it's going to reach MOQ, and the vendor then buys out the rest of MOQ and then some, what can I as a customer do about that? Perhaps we just need to stop the practice of providing interest free loans to randos on the internet.
It's good that Geon could afford to take that risk and lose that money. That's the standard we need to hold all group buy organizers to: if they don't have the capital to lose, they shouldn't do a group buy.
...and now https://www.mechsandco.com has gone private. Perfect.
Really hope these a holes face legal ramifications.
While I still think that GBs are the only way for some individuals to do runs
damn hear me out tho. what if a company or even a seller did an interest check, gauged how popular it may be, take a risk and MAYBE get too many and sell the extras anyway, all the while protecting the customer and not asking for money up front. it might even create this concept called ethical business practices. crazy. could you imagine? but yeah, group buys, only way to do business.
Just received this email this morning.... I'm willing to pay cannon keys shipping, but I'm not giving M&C one more dime.
(Attachment Link)
Just received this email this morning.... I'm willing to pay cannon keys shipping, but I'm not giving M&C one more dime.
(Attachment Link)
Can you actually open that form? It doesn't seem to be working for me
Just received this email this morning.... I'm willing to pay cannon keys shipping, but I'm not giving M&C one more dime.
(Attachment Link)
Can you actually open that form? It doesn't seem to be working for me
Just received this email this morning.... I'm willing to pay cannon keys shipping, but I'm not giving M&C one more dime.
(Attachment Link)
Can you actually open that form? It doesn't seem to be working for me
Here you go: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSe39q8DAEQYp6DwSx-W78cT-X2tW7jtdiwGcgwjcVkyKghsJA/viewform?pli=1
Thankfully, I seem to be a "lucky" one, as I only have one $200 set on the hook with M&Co. For me, that money was spent a long time ago, and isn't something I desperately need at the moment; that may not be the case for others. And yet, $200 is not an insignificant amount of money.
Shame on M&Co. for their sh*tty business practices and outright theft. If the set ever does arrive, that will be enough.
Whatever the state of the hobby was before this row, these bad actors have helped degrade it by either over-extending themselves, or practicing outright fraud.
A while back they cancelled 2 of my orders, but today I got email from PayPal that they didn't complete the refund process.
A while back they cancelled 2 of my orders, but today I got email from PayPal that they didn't complete the refund process.
It's been a week since one of my orders was cancelled, and no refund has hit on my end either. I'm assuming they probably have no intention of actually refunding anybody, unless more time needs to be given for processing.
So, did they have the sets made and just not pay? Or did the $ from Hayastan get redirected to other buys and if you went through them instead of one of the other vendors, is it good luck on the used market?
so what is the point of GB again? Why do we take the risk without any reward?
the whole point of GB is to try reach high MOQ and thus decrease the cost for the consumer, we now know from Nord, a 2000+ MOQ GMK cost only $67 for a base set, however vendors still charge $120+ for even high MOQ sets, so what is the point of GB again? Why do we take the risk without any reward?
because poggers consume relentlessly and with maximum effort. stop participating and it goes away, then vendors will have to be like every single other shop on the planet and not pass the risk and failures on the customer. have you seen the reddit AIDS about this whole thing? they literally can't help themselves and will shill out another 300 bux if mechs and co asks them to. it is pathetic.
the whole point of GB is to try reach high MOQ and thus decrease the cost for the consumer, we now know from Nord, a 2000+ MOQ GMK cost only $67 for a base set, however vendors still charge $120+ for even high MOQ sets, so what is the point of GB again? Why do we take the risk without any reward?
where did you get this number from, not saying you're wrong but even with high moqs prices shouldn't be that low, it still costs something to manufacture and injection moulding is a costly process with a lot of waste (That doesn't excuse gmk pricing for the record, base kits are alright at higher moq but child kits are so overpriced, especially for the quality control which has dipped). I know more about keyboard pricing, and when looking at that even with a several thousand moq that's met the machining still costs a certian amount to machine due to factors like complexity and just simply the cost of raw materials, like the vega was unlimited and still costed around 300 for a reason.
Because group buys aren't going anywhere anytime soon, it's important to figure out how we can hold vendors to higher standards when they do run GBs. And I think designers and prospective customers can help to kickstart this process by making it a point to only work with vendors that are willing to commit to certain standards, including transparency around escrow (if any) for the funds collected, when payment is made to manufacturers, etc.
mkultra sold their sets for "factory price" when they went under, at $67
which as the keyset designers among us are aware, is well below GMK wholesale price
the whole point of GB is to try reach high MOQ and thus decrease the cost for the consumer, we now know from Nord, a 2000+ MOQ GMK cost only $67 for a base set, however vendors still charge $120+ for even high MOQ sets, so what is the point of GB again? Why do we take the risk without any reward?
where did you get this number from, not saying you're wrong but even with high moqs prices shouldn't be that low, it still costs something to manufacture and injection moulding is a costly process with a lot of waste (That doesn't excuse gmk pricing for the record, base kits are alright at higher moq but child kits are so overpriced, especially for the quality control which has dipped). I know more about keyboard pricing, and when looking at that even with a several thousand moq that's met the machining still costs a certian amount to machine due to factors like complexity and just simply the cost of raw materials, like the vega was unlimited and still costed around 300 for a reason.
mkultra sold their sets for "factory price" when they went under, at $67
which as the keyset designers among us are aware, is well below GMK wholesale price
mkultra sold their sets for "factory price" when they went under, at $67
which as the keyset designers among us are aware, is well below GMK wholesale price
the whole point of GB is to try reach high MOQ and thus decrease the cost for the consumer, we now know from Nord, a 2000+ MOQ GMK cost only $67 for a base set, however vendors still charge $120+ for even high MOQ sets, so what is the point of GB again? Why do we take the risk without any reward?
where did you get this number from, not saying you're wrong but even with high moqs prices shouldn't be that low, it still costs something to manufacture and injection moulding is a costly process with a lot of waste (That doesn't excuse gmk pricing for the record, base kits are alright at higher moq but child kits are so overpriced, especially for the quality control which has dipped). I know more about keyboard pricing, and when looking at that even with a several thousand moq that's met the machining still costs a certian amount to machine due to factors like complexity and just simply the cost of raw materials, like the vega was unlimited and still costed around 300 for a reason.
mkultra sold their sets for "factory price" when they went under, at $67
which as the keyset designers among us are aware, is well below GMK wholesale price
I disagree with the word "well" here, at least for a set selling 2000+ units in 2021.
Another thing is that both the designer and the vendors mark up the price, assuming that both designer and vendor take a 50% markup (which is the average for a business) It's around 130, which is around what nord was being sold for. It's most likely lower for both (especially a designer's markup probably isn't 50%) and it's on a case by case basis (some designers have ran sets with no profit involved to get prices down) but I hope this clarifies a bit onto why keycap prices are a lot (if I'm wrong correct me, I have never ran a set so take this with a big grain of salt)
the whole point of GB is to try reach high MOQ and thus decrease the cost for the consumer, we now know from Nord, a 2000+ MOQ GMK cost only $67 for a base set, however vendors still charge $120+ for even high MOQ sets, so what is the point of GB again? Why do we take the risk without any reward?
margins on keysets are rarely 50% but they have increased in recent years for sure. and many designers do not get anywhere close to 50 percent. depends on a lot of things, some could be getting that much.
but you're in the ballpark
There's a lot of costs that are not covered in that $67. You have to pay for the freight shipping of the kits (This got VERY expensive during COVID - I'm sure you saw all the news about ocean shipping being absurd, containers being hard to get space on, etc.), you have to pay for a place to hold the kits, you have to pay for someone to pick and pack orders, you have to pay someone to manage all of the inventory and the shipping status, etc. etc. etc. You have to pay for all of the not-set-specific business overhead, marketing, and all of that as well.
And then you still have to make enough money for it to be worth the time for the vendors and designers to actually put forth the effort. Even if you want to make an argument that design should be exclusively a passion project and designers shouldn't be making money (which I disagree with) it is not feasible for designers to handle self-fulfillment at the scale this hobby has grown to, and vendors are first and foremost businesses.
I think the community also needs help contacting another US vendor: Project Keyboard. There is no response from their support and all of their recent GMK GBs seem to be in limbo...
QuoteI think the community also needs help contacting another US vendor: Project Keyboard. There is no response from their support and all of their recent GMK GBs seem to be in limbo...
Yeah, now that Quakemz is no longer affiliated with them, it seems there's no one left in the Discord that communicates on behalf of Project Keyboard.
I actually started avoiding PK as a vendor after watching the GMK Modern Ink GB thread: they displayed behavior that Hali brought up early in this thread:
At week three of the group buy, their base kit numbers were only about 1/5 of the MOQ:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=114591.msg3087051#msg3087051
But then during the last week of the group buy, PK (or other vendors) appeared to have bought out the remaining 80%:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=114591.msg3090493#msg3090493
Once I realized that they bought out the MOQ, I opted not to join the GB. After all, there should be plenty of extras, right?
Right?
But then during the last week of the group buy, PK (or other vendors) appeared to have bought out the remaining 80%:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=114591.msg3090493#msg3090493
Once I realized that they bought out the MOQ, I opted not to join the GB. After all, there should be plenty of extras, right?
Right?
big assumption that they actually paid the invoice, in reality all they did was to keep the 100ish poor soul's GB payment for themselves
big assumption that [Project Keyboard] actually paid the invoice [for GMK Modern Ink]
discord comms [for Project Keyboard] are gone at this point
I'm not a regular in that Discord, but I pop in every few months for updates. The PK Discord isn't locked or anything like that, but it just doesn't seem to have any official representative of PK to provide updates. I don't have any orders with them so I have not submitted any support tickets through their website.
Modern Ink is done and will ship out in November. I can't speak for PK unfortunately.
Modern Ink is done and will ship out in November. I can't speak for PK unfortunately.
Thanks for saying that. The set was probably already paid for and I know there is a document that shows the current gmk queue, so you could probably check that for updates (I'll link it when I can). I sent that email just to see if they would respond specifically. But it's cool that at least modern ink is at least paid for.
That document isn't circulated by GMK iirc, so it would include sets that are "in the queue" but not paid for. Unless GMK has started circulating their queue, which would be a big change.
also why call (reddit) aids? idk that's really weird to me
...
suggesting the retail model, that has literally worked for other vendors, isn't productive and realistic at all.
also why call (reddit) aids? idk that's really weird to me
...
suggesting the retail model, that has literally worked for other vendors, isn't productive and realistic at all.
lmao
Was already posted in the gmk nord thread but thought would post the reddit thread here.
Reddit thread saying that MK Ultra has shut down (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/17m0vl4/psa_mkultra_has_shut_down/)
pretty self explanatory, just want to add that apparently he had no money to refund people, so chargeback immediately as you likely won't be getting the items you ordered or your money back from him directly.