Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)

[hazeluff]

Alternate? There would have to be A LOT of extra diodes to allow that...

Nope it doesn't. Someone posted it on a Phantom/Dox discussion and I think the image might of got lost during the rollback. It involves bringing in some BJT/FETs to control. I'll go see if I can find it.

[alaricljs]

If I recall correctly it was a 3 wire design, common 'ground' between the switch and LED and then separate lines for the switch signal and LED signal.

[The_Ed]

DAMNED HACKER! FLIFLA MUST DIE! I don't know anything about BJT/FETs so you can do that. So... were you still going to implement your rotary encoders your way, or my way? Just curious since it would be interesting to see if both ways work, even if you do decide to come over to the diode way...

[bpiphany]

(= Calm down boys (and girls, what do I know..) Looking for this? I can't swear it'll work out exactly like that, but I have a feeling it should be doable.

[hazeluff]

DAMNED HACKER! FLIFLA MUST DIE! I don't know anything about BJT/FETs so you can do that. So... were you still going to implement your rotary encoders your way, or my way? Just curious since it would be interesting to see if both ways work, even if you do decide to come over to the diode way...

It doesn't matter. You can do it whatever way you want. They are up to the user to implement into the switches.

[hazeluff]

(= Calm down boys (and girls, what do I know..) Looking for this? I can't swear it'll work out exactly like that, but I have a feeling it should be doable.

Thank you kinda sir.

This is exactly what I was looking for.

I don't even think there will be a problem with too much current going into the row pin.

Still need to test the whole thing tho and select the right FET/BJT (FET imo, just to remove the dependancy on base current).

I'll print it out 2morrow and ask around the guys at Uni (its great doing a degree in electronics).

[bpiphany]

Yeah, I'm not too familiar with transistors and stuff but my understanding is; BJT - current controlled current source, FET - voltage controlled current source.

We would of course just be interested in saturating them in any case, controlling the current by other means. I think the Teensy and all(?) microcontrollers are FET based anyhow.

[7bit]

If we do, it won't fit most cases. = /

Plate mounting imo is the way to go, specially with the lovely side holes on the phantom ones <3.

Ok, maybe I will set up some layout on my own. For the big keyboard I already have the Tipros which come wuite close to what I would like to have.

Okay! new list for 104+:

104
+ 5 above arrows
+ 4 above numpad
+ Esc through Pause/Break in double positions - in "regular" and cherry G80/G81 -3000 positions

Individually controlled LEDs - fit through holes in mx switches and solder to traces on the PCB
Fits into "regular" and cherry G80/G81 -3000 cases
n-key rollover - diodes next to the switches - possibly SMD and possibly already preinstalled
PCB switch mount holes - for if no plate is wanted
Cherry G99 stabilizer PCB mount holes - for if no plate is used and cherry stabilizers are wanted

7bit - Do you have a pile G81-3000 cases for those who want a cheap case here? I'll probably just buy a cheap G80-3000 for myself to get the case, PCB mount G99 stabilizers, and PCB mount switch bottoms.

You had forgotten the function row in 7BIT layout style (ie no gaps between the function keys).
But honestly, I'm not so much interested in this. It is easier and cheaper to mod the Tipro.

Ascaii might have a lot of these cases (if he didn't throw them away).

[Ascaii]

I should have a bunch of cases available. Anything from g80-1k, g80-3k, to Desko cases in 3k layout. Ill tally what I have. Would definitely want a pcb

[hazeluff]

How much output voltage are on those column pins. I'ma go debug and see if at least the LED component of integrated design above works.

[hazeluff]

Yeah, I'm not too familiar with transistors and stuff but my understanding is; BJT - current controlled current source, FET - voltage controlled current source.

We would of course just be interested in saturating them in any case, controlling the current by other means. I think the Teensy and all(?) microcontrollers are FET based anyhow.

IC like to use FET. Less current going around. As well as much easier to predict behavior and bias and such. Tradeoff is the "intrinsic gain". But that's analogue circuits.

[bpiphany]

I've been doing some work on this "universal" Filco replacement board. My idea is that it should be possible to fit it into both a Filco Tenkeyless case as well as the full size case. Perhaps adding tiny holes as drill guides for the different PCB mount stabilizer options. In my world fitting into a Filco case is still the best idea =) The Teensy++ would be used for a full size and a Teensy for a Tenkeyless. All different switch locations supported of course (no full 7bit yet though...)

[bpiphany]

How much output voltage are on those column pins. I'ma go debug and see if at least the LED component of integrated design above works.

5V I suppose, don't forget current limiting on the LEDs. I didn't include it in that diagram.

[hazeluff]

I've been doing some work on this "universal" Filco replacement board. My idea is that it should be possible to fit it into both a Filco Tenkeyless case as well as the full size case. Perhaps adding tiny holes as drill guides for the different PCB mount stabilizer options. In my world fitting into a Filco case is still the best idea =) The Teensy++ would be used for a full size and a Teensy for a Tenkeyless. All different switch locations supported of course (no full 7bit yet though...)

I don't know about this. = / It is a really cool idea tho. So when its TKL, we saw off the right side? It feels like such a waste if that is the case.

[alaricljs]

Given a sufficient run size (>25 boards) the price differential between doing 2 different PCB designs approaches pennies very quickly.

[hazeluff]

Given a sufficient run size (>25 boards) the price differential between doing 2 different PCB designs approaches pennies very quickly.

Lets go with one first ; p

Take things one step at a time ye?

[hazeluff]

5V I suppose, don't forget current limiting on the LEDs. I didn't include it in that diagram.

Yeah I'll work that out. I don't think it'll hit 5V because almost nothing hits the rails.

[The_Ed]

I got lost with that wiring diagram... But as long as the new 104+ requirements are met I'm fine. I really hope that the G99 holes make it in so I don't have to drill them as PrinsValium suggested.

[TheProfosist]

i mwould like to have the option for the 2 F rows to be side by side and allow for 2 extra keys each like the 7bit it was implemented on the phantom to do that and standard should be able to be done on this right?

[hazeluff]

i mwould like to have the option for the 2 F rows to be side by side and allow for 2 extra keys each like the 7bit it was implemented on the phantom to do that and standard should be able to be done on this right?

What are these 2 extra keys? You mean like compressing all the Function keys horizontally?

And by the 2 F rows you mean like 2 stacked on top of each other vertically?

[TheProfosist]

What are these 2 extra keys? You mean like compressing all the Function keys horizontally?

And by the 2 F rows you mean like 2 stacked on top of each other vertically?

yes compressed horizontally there would be the ability to have 2 more keys that I could put to use but like the phantom would still support the normal spacing as well.

Yes 2 function rows stacked vertically there was talk of that when using the cherry case so if their easy enough to mod into the case im in.

[hazeluff]

yes compressed horizontally there would be the ability to have 2 more keys that I could put to use but like the phantom would still support the normal spacing as well.

Yes 2 function rows stacked vertically there was talk of that when using the cherry case so if their easy enough to mod into the case im in.

Yeah, I guess it could work.

I'd like to get some software to make the traces, can someone let me know what they're using?

[alaricljs]

KiCAD is what Prins and myself have been using.

[hazeluff]

KiCAD is what Prins and myself have been using.

Gonna play around with that ^_^.

Would EAGLE be good to use? I have that in Uni. And I think i can get myself an install for myself.

[alaricljs]

Biggest reason I use Ki is because Prins made footprints for all the cherry parts available in one of his wiki's and instructions on how to use it.  Eagle would obviously do the job, just need to get footprints done.

[hazeluff]

Biggest reason I use Ki is because Prins made footprints for all the cherry parts available in one of his wiki's and instructions on how to use it.  Eagle would obviously do the job, just need to get footprints done.

Well I'd use KiCAD, since you guys are using it. And the cherry parts already done means I dont have to look aroudn for it ^_^.

[TheProfosist]

looks like we could even fit 3 more keys below PrtSc/NumLk/Pause http://tinyurl.com/6f7lowl so we could get 133 max then

[hazeluff]

looks like we could even fit 3 more keys below PrtSc/NumLk/Pause http://tinyurl.com/6f7lowl so we could get 133 max then

Dude, you Arn't ambitous enough we put 8 ontop of numpad!

KiCAD question:
Just curious how The extra switch positions are done on the Phantom. Is an extra component made and then the components made to overlap on the trace?

[TheProfosist]

Dude, you Arn't ambitous enough we put 8 ontop of numpad!

would love to do that but I think it would run into the LEDs...

[hazeluff]

would love to do that but I think it would run into the LEDs...

Im thinking of not putting switches there at all. Do we really need them when you could get +12 function keys. That space also happens to be a great place to put the teensy/other mod things like the volumn nob and yeah the lock status LEDs are there too.

[Parak]

I'm also willing to do the traces, provided a half decent sch/net/brd, ideally

However, I'd obviously prefer to do an SMD controller design with LED control, as that makes things a lot easier. I definitely don't have enough EE experience at this point to do one from scratch, so I'm really hoping that we'll have something from siberx.

[TheProfosist]

O just though of something there will be more keys depending if we make it optional to have the numpad to have 1x keys I would want all 1x keys except for possibly enter. The other pace there will be more keys if if you just expand the Phantom like we originally had planned you could have up to 143 keys. Now thats a keyboard !!!

[bpiphany]

KiCAD question:
Just curious how The extra switch positions are done on the Phantom. Is an extra component made and then the components made to overlap on the trace?

Yeah, I just put the same footprints on top of each other. I think that is the easier way to do it. otherwise special footprints need to be created for all overlapping clusters. Individual pads can be removed by hand where needed to. I added all the slot holes required for overlapping holes to a special "footprint" containing them all.

I use KiCAD since it is free, and powerful enough to produce good quality gerber files. There is a free version of Eagle as well, but that only supports really tiny boards. But Eagle is supposedly more powerful than KiCAD if you want to pay up =) I think it was a bit fiddlier as well when I tries it out...

[The_Ed]

I have said before that I support the 129 key layout. It looks like we now have supporters for 2 different 104+ layouts:

104
+ 5 above arrows
+ 4 above numpad


+ Esc through Pause/Break in double positions - in "regular" and cherry G80/G81 -3000 positions - 113 keys total - my second compromise choice
OR
+ 16 in an extra row underneath Esc through Pause/Break that are in cherry G80/G81 -3000 positions - 129 keys total - my first choice


Individually controlled LEDs - fit through holes in mx switches and solder to traces on the PCB
Fits into "regular" and cherry G80/G81 -3000 cases
n-key rollover - diodes next to the switches - possibly SMD and possibly already preinstalled
PCB switch mount holes - for if no plate is wanted
Cherry G99 stabilizer PCB mount holes - for if no plate is used and cherry stabilizers are wanted

Single person suggestions:
alaricljs - 87 key version
alaricljs - the ever-requested trackpoint
TheProfosist - wants long numpad keys split into 2 keys - No support for this yet as regular 2x keys would no longer be able to be used.

I would like to be able to still use the 3 "lock" LED windows, so there won't be 4 more keys there.

[alaricljs]

The trackpoint was asked for by someone else, I just cataloged it in the first post... I think it was TheProfosist.   Not that a TP wouldn't be pretty awesome, I just don't know if the complexity issues can be readily solved.

[7bit]

looks like we could even fit 3 more keys below PrtSc/NumLk/Pause http://tinyurl.com/6f7lowl so we could get 133 max then

Will it really be possible to have mount-positions in 1/2 units steps in both direction (horizontal and vertical)?

Is the distance of main-, cursor- and number-field the same for Filco and Cherry? For Cherry it is 1/2 unit.

If every possible space is filled up and the bottom row is designed like the Phantom, we'd have:
3*23+3*22+19 == 154 switches.

Im thinking of not putting switches there at all. Do we really need them when you could get +12 function keys. That space also happens to be a great place to put the teensy/other mod things like the volumn nob and yeah the lock status LEDs are there too.

LED or switch, whatever is prefered.

For Cherry cases there should be no problem with the controller, but Filcos have no room. That is a problem.

[hazeluff]

Will it really be possible to have mount-positions in 1/2 units steps in both direction (horizontal and vertical)?

I think it can. doing the kicad files now...so many switches to put in XD

LED or switch, whatever is prefered.

I think it may work, but if all the switches need LED, i don't think we can have all the traces done cos of the number of LED + Switches. I'll try tho.

For Cherry cases there should be no problem with the controller, but Filcos have no room. That is a problem.

Indeed, And I want to be able to fit it in the smaller filco board...and even with the two rows of Function keys, it wouldn't fit in a filco anymore...maybe we need to give up the filco case idea?

[7bit]

I think it can. doing the kicad files now...so many switches to put in XD



I think it may work, but if all the switches need LED, i don't think we can have all the traces done cos of the number of LED + Switches. I'll try tho.



Indeed, And I want to be able to fit it in the smaller filco board...and even with the two rows of Function keys, it wouldn't fit in a filco anymore...maybe we need to give up the filco case idea?

It is only a bit more than 1/2 a unit. Is the case for the Filco so tight?

BTW: I don't need LEDs in every switch. Just thought it might be useful for some.

[hazeluff]

It is only a bit more than 1/2 a unit. Is the case for the Filco so tight?

BTW: I don't need LEDs in every switch. Just thought it might be useful for some.

Its really thin round the edges. so it wont fit 2 rows of function (or a function row that has a 1 unit gap from number row; same thing).

[hazeluff]

I've started doing the schematic for the board.

By doing it 7 rows by 23 columns there are 8 pins left for LED controls. Assuming we do the alternate between polling and LED lighting, we cannot get LED indicators for numlock/Capslock/scrollock. The options are to remove the 8/4 keys above the numpad. Or we have extra multiplexors to control the LEDs. Any input guys.

Also, Prins would you like to supply schematics from the Phantom that supports the 1.5 and 1.25 Width mods. Or can I implement that myself without making a new component?

[bpiphany]

A normal keyboard is quite possible to do with 21 columns. 14 for the alpha numeric, 3 for the nav cluster, 4 for the numpad. Only problem is that the number row fits 15 keys. This is easily solvable if no other rows are crammed with a lot of extra keys... The Teensy++ has 46 IO-pins, so using that chip would give more than enough pins to  play with.

I do not use any special components for the overlapping switch locations. Simply put several footprints on top of each other. Remove holes that overlap and replace them with slots instead.

[hazeluff]

A normal keyboard is quite possible to do with 21 columns. 14 for the alpha numeric, 3 for the nav cluster, 4 for the numpad. Only problem is that the number row fits 15 keys. This is easily solvable if no other rows are crammed with a lot of extra keys... The Teensy++ has 46 IO-pins, so using that chip would give more than enough pins to  play with.

I do not use any special components for the overlapping switch locations. Simply put several footprints on top of each other. Remove holes that overlap and replace them with slots instead.

Right right. Well the teensy site says only 38 are IO...But there are 46 pins...So the 8 unaccounted ones are interior pins. Are those usable?

Edit: It says 46 IO pins, just 8 are analogue. ^_^

[The_Ed]

Will the alternation between polling and lighting the LEDs make them flicker? Like with an old CRT that has it's refresh rate too low?

[hazeluff]

Will the alternation between polling and lighting the LEDs make them flicker? Like with an old CRT that has it's refresh rate too low?

The polling happen really fast. And once every millisecond(?, im unsure, but 1khz polling is about right). Then it won't flicker much. It'll spend a (/few) ms of the time off because It polled.

CRT refresh is in the hz range and this polling is in the milli range, it won't be noticable. But anyway we have enough pins.

[The_Ed]

If I'm following this right you'd need 21(columns) + 7(switch rows) + 7(LED rows) = 35 pins. And the 3 "lock" LEDs would be put into the top row on the "Num Lock", "/", and "*" columns right? Or am I way off? I'm an IT guy so I'm not an "expert" in circuits.

[TheProfosist]

Someone should come up with some basic layouts like with the Phantom it might help to have a visual aid when designing the PCB.

[hazeluff]

If I'm following this right you'd need 21(columns) + 7(switch rows) + 7(LED rows) = 35 pins. And the 3 "lock" LEDs would be put into the top row on the "Num Lock", "/", and "*" columns right? Or am I way off? I'm an IT guy so I'm not an "expert" in circuits.

If those keys are didividually lit, the lock keys have to be separate. Also i need to collect my thoughts on whether or not to use tge alternation between LED and polling or to do it separate. And just to check uf i have enough pins. But outlook is good.

[The_Ed]

You could always use 2 teensys and connect them to an internal USB hub right? That would all fit with room to spare in a 129 key G80-3000.

The polling teensy and LED teensy would have a pin connection between them to signal each other to start when they're done.

[Internetlad]

First discussion point: I can't find an antonym for Phantom, so I was looking at synonyms for light. I couldn't even name my own children if not for my wife, so I'll leave the discussion to you, the interested.

RE: Names.

Light: Synonyms: ablaze, aglow, bright, brilliant, burnished, clear, cloudless, flashing, fluorescent, glossy, glowing, lambent, lucent, luminous, lustrous, phosphorescent, polished, radiant, refulgent, resplendent, rich, scintillant, shining, shiny, sunny, unclouded, unobscured, vivid, well-lighted, well-lit

Phantom: Antonyms: reality

http://www.thesaurus.com

Are we even trying here?

[The_Ed]

I hope someone does expand to a full 104. I reserve the name "Lux Aeterna" for a full 104 version. The 87 could be "Lux Mortalis".

Looks like this post has come back from the abyss! How can we not be trying? Everyday posts were randomly disappearing... Hopefully that's fixed now, as I can see more and more of my posts reappearing.

Holy crap! Are 1 in 4 posts here really mine? Guess I talk too much...