How much do non-switch components affect auditory and tactile aspects?

[IceCandle]

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[IronCheeks]

I literally just responded to your "New Members" post, but I guess I'll put my two cents in.

Let's talk about this idea of "endgame." It's all relative to your budget. With $250, you can get away with a lot of things and find great joy in what you get. Now, with aesthetics - including sound and feel, depends on quite a few factors.

Aluminum can make sound appear more bright and pingy as it is a steel, and certain cases can reverberate the sound (i.e. aluminum cases that have more hollow space when completely assembled). Acrylic and poly-carbonate cases tend to have a more rounded, "thockier" sound and are less likely to reverberate as they absorb more of the impact when typing. The plate can also attribute to the sound, but you will most likely come across brass or aluminum at this price point. You could even put shelf liner into your keyboard if you have enough space in the case to help deaden some unwanted sound. Sites like KBDFans, KRepublic, and Aliexpress all have tons of keyboard options with both materials I discussed.

Keycaps, too, can sound different on the same switch due to material. Rubbert, PBT, ABS, POM are all very different types of plastic. You can find sound comparisons between these different keycap materials all over YouTube, as hearing/seeing is believing. All feel very different and even come in different profiles to fit your typing needs. GMK will eat a hole through your budget and you can wait a long time for some kits to be delivered, so I would say look into NKPC, enjoyPBT, or even some great Tai-Hao kits.

I would say go with what you can afford and what you are comfortable with.

[jamster]

Hi IceCandle and welcome to the forums.

I'm not quite sure what you're asking- you're going to DIY or order a custom board for $250? What are aspects are you actually looking for?

I think that the idea of 'endgame' is not a helpful one, and whether the idea exists at all is more in the mind of the user. My three main boards were all just over $200 when factoring in switch replacements, or new keycap sets, and I've been happy with them for 5+ years. At the same time, I've also retired various boards because of age/failure, or different living circumstances.

The quality of keycaps, materials, all this stuff is 100% personal preference and you're going to have to figure out what's important to you and. Personally, I have caps that range from a $20 Tai Hao set which I find perfectly serviceable, to a $120 GMK set which is noticeably nicer, I can and have been living with both extremes. Same with cases, some people will absolutely need a milled block of aluminium, and some are fine with whatever the default is- I'm fine as long as it's not a flexy POS.

If it's all about the effect of parts on sound, I think it's fairly slight. The switch mechanism and whether you're using o-rings will be the main determinant of noise. Having tried stock thin ABS and thick ABS/PBT, I noticed a tiny audible difference, but this was vastly overwhelmed by the improved visual aesthetics. If you're going bottom of the barrel case and caps*, then I think there are going to be much more noticeable trade-offs in areas other than sound!

* But hey, even $20 or so gets you some nice caps.

[Leslieann]

I'm planning a custom keyboard for $250. As it's impossible to get an endgame with this budget, I decided to think of aesthetics as a bonus. As you all know, the sound and feeling of the keyboard mostly depends on the switch type. So I thought, 'If I just consider the feeling, wouldn't it be okay to buy the switch that I like the most with dirt cheap keycaps and case?' To what extent should I give importance to the quality of keycap, the material of the keyboard, etc?

There is no endgame, this is a journey, not a destination, as soon as you think you found the end there will be a new path waiting to explore.

Just because something has less impact doesn't mean it's less important.

Here's a couple tricks.
Bad stabs will ruin an otherwise perfect keyboard, unfortunately they can be tough to reach, getting either a kit or a keyboard with plate mount helps. If you can get some Zeal, Durock, ZugGear or Everglide (the latter are the same) do so and lube them. Look up Taeha Types on youtube and watch how he does it, his older stuff shows cheaper lubes than he uses today with similar results. Plate mount tends to be less than ideal but is fixable for the most part. Cherry/GMK is hit (older) or miss (newer) but the style is good, Costar style is meh, hard to stop the rattle and a bit of a hassle to assemble.

The case itself isn't really a big deal despite being one of the more costly parts, with some effort almost anything can type and sound good provided it has decent switches and stabs. Whatever you get, shove as many layers of foam shelf liner in the bottom of the case as will fit, it provides noise and vibration dampening for cheap. Some feel it does little, others a lot, in my experience it can't just lay there, it needs to put some pressure against the pcb and case (only a little). Regardless of the result it's worth trying as it's only a couple bucks.

You don't need to spend much on caps but stay away from thin cheap stuff. Krepublic, YMDK and NKPC (some of these are on Amazon) have some 1.4mm (or thicker) PBT caps that are really cheap, they will feel great, sound great and last forever.

[IceCandle]

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[Leslieann]

Has the quality of cherry and GMK stabilizers gone lower to the point where high-end ones are worth the price?

Thank you all for your answers! I've heard a lot about Holy Pandas and Zealios, but since it's $1 per switch, I have to give up a lot of other things. On the other hand, cheaper switches like halo clears and outemu ice purples give me more flexibility. In the end it all depends on personal taste, but the switch tester is pretty expensive, and I can't experience all the different keycaps.
For your information, I'm interested in Tofu 60%/HHKB (when the stock comes in) and Blank Blue ePBT keycaps.

You're welcome.
I'm not an expert on stabs, someone else would need to chime in on that.

You don't need to try every switch, you just need to narrow it down. Don't try expensive switches unless you're ready to consider actually buying them. As for the tester, got access to a 3d printer, laser cutter, woodshop or any sort of fabrication tools? There's lots of ways to make one. Even an old keyboard you can tear apart and use the case and plate with no pcb.

You can get a soldering iron at dollar stores that will get the job done, you don't need a $100 Hakko, they're nice, but not necessary.

Otherwise sounds like you have a decent plan and I think you'll be happy with it.
Why not send a message to KBDfans and see if they have a time frame for stock, if it;s a ways off maybe you can look into nicer switches or something.

[IronCheeks]

Has the quality of cherry and GMK stabilizers gone lower to the point where high-end ones are worth the price?

Thank you all for your answers! I've heard a lot about Holy Pandas and Zealios, but since it's $1 per switch, I have to give up a lot of other things. On the other hand, cheaper switches like halo clears and outemu ice purples give me more flexibility. In the end it all depends on personal taste, but the switch tester is pretty expensive, and I can't experience all the different keycaps.
For your information, I'm interested in Tofu 60%/HHKB (when the stock comes in) and Blank Blue ePBT keycaps.

Looking at a lot of the stabilizer reviews and information out there and what's known, there are quite a few differences. GMK/Cherry are one and the same since GMK is owned by Cherry. So GMK/Cherry stabilizers are OEM and have the legs that need to be clipped off. Also, the point where the wire inserts into the stem has a lot more play compared to "after-market" options seen in Durock, ZealPC, and Everglide. You can get away with GMK/Cherry stabs - just make sure you lube and clip them. However, if you want a more robust and less rattle-y sound, you may want to look at options from Everglide, Durock, and ZealPC (respectively of increasing cost) and lube them and you'll have a nice sounding set of keys.

There are a plethora of tactile switches that are out there and it all comes down to preference. Many people here would recommend BOX Jades for a first tactile switch for their price and moderate tactility with a solid click. If you check out on Drop, you can get Holy Pandas for 0.70 cents a switch, albeit at a long wait time for delivery. If you're willing to go r/mechmarket, you can get some Zealios for a good price, stock or pre-lubed. There's even a switch tester specific for Gateron on Drop that you may benefit off of to get an idea of a few things available out there.

ePBT keycaps are great, last a long time, and fit with any keyboard.

HINT: KBDFans does sell switches by bags of 90 at a discount. You should see it listed as "Switches 90."

[Leslieann]

HINT: KBDFans does sell switches by bags of 90 at a discount. You should see it listed as "Switches 90."

Krepublic also has switches in bulk, just beware everyone's ship times, especially Chinese ship are HORRIBLE right now.

Little to nothing is going by air so it's all slow boat and it's all backed up, it can be 2 weeks before it even gets on the slow boat so expect up to 2 months, possibly more for anything you order.

[Maledicted]

Many people here would recommend BOX Jades for a first tactile switch for their price and moderate tactility with a solid click.

You've said a lot of really helpful things in this thread, and others, but I just needed to correct this tiny detail. Kailh's box jades are clickies, not tactiles. They're pretty stiff in the tactility department as well, and loud. Definitely a fantastic switch for those who like clickies of all kinds, maybe not so much for people who prefer tactiles and/or keeping sound at the minimum. I don't think you'll ever get a feel quite as crisp and nice out of tactiles as you will from clickies, but that's personal opinion, and I certainly haven't tried any of the boutique tactiles, unless Everglides count.

With that out of the way, I'll extricate myself from this thread as, being a clicky guy, I don't ordinarily care about any of this dampening stuff and know far too little about it thus far.

But first ...

There is no endgame, this is a journey, not a destination, as soon as you think you found the end there will be a new path waiting to explore.

Heresy. We all know an IBM Model F 4704, or beam spring, are all anybody needs for the rest of their lives (and afterlives), and the lives of the next 5+ generations of their descendants.

Joking (mostly).

[Leslieann]

Heresy. We all know an IBM Model F 4704, or beam spring, are all anybody needs for the rest of their lives (and afterlives), and the lives of the next 5+ generations of their descendants.

Fs and Ms will outlive us all.
If only I could hear myself think while typing on them.

[Findecanor]

Many people here would recommend BOX Jades for a first tactile switch for their price and moderate tactility with a solid click.

I don't like the clicky BOX switches, because they click both on the downstroke and the upstroke and the downstroke-click does not correspond too well with actuation.

ePBT keycaps are great, last a long time, and fit with any keyboard.

Not any keyboard. EnjoyPBT keycaps are not recommended on keyboards with switches mounted with the LED window facing up.
The scooped F and J keycaps could hit the switch's housing before bottoming out the key.

They are also not recommended with QMX clips for the same reason. (Although those have gone out of style now when more "silent" switches are available. Silent switches are more effective at silencing than QMX clips can ever be)

[IronCheeks]

Not any keyboard. EnjoyPBT keycaps are not recommended on keyboards with switches mounted with the LED window facing up.
The scooped F and J keycaps could hit the switch's housing before bottoming out the key.

They are also not recommended with QMX clips for the same reason. (Although those have gone out of style now when more "silent" switches are available. Silent switches are more effective at silencing than QMX clips can ever be)

I am learning something new everyday with these responses and I love it .

[IceCandle]

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[IronCheeks]

I'm willing to wait for some months unless the delivery is due next year. I'd buy them right away if Holy Pandas were that cheap compared to secondhand price(sadly $70 for 70 switches). Also searched r/mm and it looks like people there are waiting for hours for someone to sell what they want.

Yeah, the aftermarket is weird. Drop is good, but the wait periods for some items are definitely hella long. r/mm is a hit or miss. Some people have exactly what you want when you ask, but some can wait up to a few days for a response. Then there are just some obscene asking prices here and there. But that's the nature of this market - scarcity and demand in a niche hobby are a few of the driving factors for increased cost to enter into the better quality options that are offered.

[Leslieann]

You mean I have to experience them first before getting 'ready'?

No, what happens if you try them and find you really like them? Will you be content with something else or will you buy something else, regret it and then have to spend even more money to finally get the switch you really wanted.

[Maledicted]

You mean I have to experience them first before getting 'ready'?

No, what happens if you try them and find you really like them? Will you be content with something else or will you buy something else, regret it and then have to spend even more money to finally get the switch you really wanted.

^ This cannot be overstated.

[IronCheeks]

You mean I have to experience them first before getting 'ready'?

No, what happens if you try them and find you really like them? Will you be content with something else or will you buy something else, regret it and then have to spend even more money to finally get the switch you really wanted.

^ This cannot be overstated.

Ditto. I spent a bit too much money on a few sets of switches I didn't like and came out short of money that could be spent on switches that I would much prefer. Like, TTC Browns. I could have saved money for something more tactile and a bit heavier for my taste.

[Maledicted]

You mean I have to experience them first before getting 'ready'?

No, what happens if you try them and find you really like them? Will you be content with something else or will you buy something else, regret it and then have to spend even more money to finally get the switch you really wanted.

^ This cannot be overstated.

Ditto. I spent a bit too much money on a few sets of switches I didn't like and came out short of money that could be spent on switches that I would much prefer. Like, TTC Browns. I could have saved money for something more tactile and a bit heavier for my taste.

Slight sidetrack: Why in the world are TTC orange switches so expensive? I figured they were generic when I first felt them on my tester, but they're normally like $3-4? The blue equivalent literally feels like it is broken on my tester. the tactility is literally just the MX rattle and nothing else. The brown equivalents feel slightly worse than even cheap Outemus, only slightly better than MX. Is there anything different about TTC orange from regular TTC switches?

[IronCheeks]

Slight sidetrack: Why in the world are TTC orange switches so expensive? I figured they were generic when I first felt them on my tester, but they're normally like $3-4? The blue equivalent literally feels like it is broken on my tester. the tactility is literally just the MX rattle and nothing else. The brown equivalents feel slightly worse than even cheap Outemus, only slightly better than MX. Is there anything different about TTC orange from regular TTC switches?

Mehkee has them for $3.50 per 10. I think the original appeal comes mostly out of color. When they were last on Drop, everyone complained about how scratchy and iffy the springs were. I'm not speaking from experience, but if I had a theme going and I really wanted to have orange switches, maybe I would pay a bit more for the looks.

[Maledicted]

Slight sidetrack: Why in the world are TTC orange switches so expensive? I figured they were generic when I first felt them on my tester, but they're normally like $3-4? The blue equivalent literally feels like it is broken on my tester. the tactility is literally just the MX rattle and nothing else. The brown equivalents feel slightly worse than even cheap Outemus, only slightly better than MX. Is there anything different about TTC orange from regular TTC switches?

Mehkee has them for $3.50 per 10. I think the original appeal comes mostly out of color. When they were last on Drop, everyone complained about how scratchy and iffy the springs were. I'm not speaking from experience, but if I had a theme going and I really wanted to have orange switches, maybe I would pay a bit more for the looks.

Right, per 10. My mistake. I don't understand that whole theme thing either. Unless your caps are transparent, you're never going to see them anyway. lol

[IronCheeks]

Slight sidetrack: Why in the world are TTC orange switches so expensive? I figured they were generic when I first felt them on my tester, but they're normally like $3-4? The blue equivalent literally feels like it is broken on my tester. the tactility is literally just the MX rattle and nothing else. The brown equivalents feel slightly worse than even cheap Outemus, only slightly better than MX. Is there anything different about TTC orange from regular TTC switches?

Mehkee has them for $3.50 per 10. I think the original appeal comes mostly out of color. When they were last on Drop, everyone complained about how scratchy and iffy the springs were. I'm not speaking from experience, but if I had a theme going and I really wanted to have orange switches, maybe I would pay a bit more for the looks.

Or if you have highprofile case


Right, per 10. My mistake. I don't understand that whole theme thing either. Unless your caps are transparent, you're never going to see them anyway. lol

[IceCandle]

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[Leslieann]

Will you be content with something else or will you buy something else, regret it and then have to spend even more money to finally get the switch you really wanted.

I'm concerned about that, too. Searched and found Holy Pandas' cheap alternatives are T1 and Outemu skies, but I heard T1 has the worst contact noise and sky has a lot of stem wobble. After all, they would feel different and there's still a market for holy pandas. But considering the price of other parts, it might be overkill for me because I'll go over the budget (Tofu HHKB = $160 + Holy Panda x 70 = $70 + ePBT Blank Blues = $40 + shipping costs and accessories like lube = $300+)

Does stem wobble bother you while typing or is it a vanity thing? I get it sort of implies a lack of quality, but that doesn't make it a bad experience.

The costs add up fast, throw in expensive switches and things get out of control fast.

[Maledicted]

Will you be content with something else or will you buy something else, regret it and then have to spend even more money to finally get the switch you really wanted.

I'm concerned about that, too. Searched and found Holy Pandas' cheap alternatives are T1 and Outemu skies, but I heard T1 has the worst contact noise and sky has a lot of stem wobble. After all, they would feel different and there's still a market for holy pandas. But considering the price of other parts, it might be overkill for me because I'll go over the budget (Tofu HHKB = $160 + Holy Panda x 70 = $70 + ePBT Blank Blues = $40 + shipping costs and accessories like lube = $300+)

Does stem wobble bother you while typing or is it a vanity thing? I get it sort of implies a lack of quality, but that doesn't make it a bad experience.

The costs add up fast, throw in expensive switches and things get out of control fast.

I never understood the concern for wobble. It seems to me to have literally nothing to do with the typing experience, unless it may cause binding/friction at weird angles.

[IronCheeks]

Will you be content with something else or will you buy something else, regret it and then have to spend even more money to finally get the switch you really wanted.

I'm concerned about that, too. Searched and found Holy Pandas' cheap alternatives are T1 and Outemu skies, but I heard T1 has the worst contact noise and sky has a lot of stem wobble. After all, they would feel different and there's still a market for holy pandas. But considering the price of other parts, it might be overkill for me because I'll go over the budget (Tofu HHKB = $160 + Holy Panda x 70 = $70 + ePBT Blank Blues = $40 + shipping costs and accessories like lube = $300+)

Does stem wobble bother you while typing or is it a vanity thing? I get it sort of implies a lack of quality, but that doesn't make it a bad experience.

The costs add up fast, throw in expensive switches and things get out of control fast.

I never understood the concern for wobble. It seems to me to have literally nothing to do with the typing experience, unless it may cause binding/friction at weird angles.

Maybe wobbling is conducive of feel and sound. I would imagine too much wobble would make it so that the keys sound rattly upon a upstroke/downstroke. Too little wobble and you have all that friction could attribute to scratchiness. But then again that's also materials used to attribute for friction coefficients and compatability... Now that you mention it, why do we worry about wobbling?

[Maledicted]

Will you be content with something else or will you buy something else, regret it and then have to spend even more money to finally get the switch you really wanted.

I'm concerned about that, too. Searched and found Holy Pandas' cheap alternatives are T1 and Outemu skies, but I heard T1 has the worst contact noise and sky has a lot of stem wobble. After all, they would feel different and there's still a market for holy pandas. But considering the price of other parts, it might be overkill for me because I'll go over the budget (Tofu HHKB = $160 + Holy Panda x 70 = $70 + ePBT Blank Blues = $40 + shipping costs and accessories like lube = $300+)

Does stem wobble bother you while typing or is it a vanity thing? I get it sort of implies a lack of quality, but that doesn't make it a bad experience.

The costs add up fast, throw in expensive switches and things get out of control fast.

I never understood the concern for wobble. It seems to me to have literally nothing to do with the typing experience, unless it may cause binding/friction at weird angles.

Maybe wobbling is conducive of feel and sound. I would imagine too much wobble would make it so that the keys sound rattly upon a upstroke/downstroke. Too little wobble and you have all that friction could attribute to scratchiness. But then again that's also materials used to attribute for friction coefficients and compatability... Now that you mention it, why do we worry about wobbling?

My Matias and Alps boards seem to wobble about as much as Cherry MX blues. My capacitive buckling spring switches wobble very little. I believe Kailh box switches have a relatively low amount of it as well. I love all but the Cherries, which I no longer like very much at all, about equally as much. Thus, I do not worry about it, and never have. It has been all but irrelevant in my use cases.

I consider it akin to people staring at the legends of their caps under a magnifying glass, with bright light, just to spot visible imperfections. I don't need any legends at all. I have 0 practical reason to care about what they look like, much less how perfect they happen to be. I think that mostly comes down to vanity and/or perfectionism.

[jamster]

I worry about wobbling because when my fingers rest on the home row, I can feel varying degrees of wobble.

Too much wobble, and it's simply (very slightly, but nonetheless) subliminally annoying. My Northgate had a bit of wobble, my Ergo Clear board has quite a bit of wobble (but I can still live with it).

It's the same with tools, or sports equipment, or in fact any machinery- when I renovated my apartment, I went to a fair bit of trouble to find door handles with the least about of free play in the movement. It's nice if your equipment is machined precisely and doesn't have loose play in the parts. Sometimes it's more than just 'nice', it's a reflection on the health of the gear or the philosophy of the designers. Okay, I admit this last point is a bit of a stretch, but it does reinforce my general bias against Cherry MX- rattling switches and their willingness to make crappy rough sliders that need to be lubricated(!) in order to feel smooth because they didn't bother updating their production equipment for decades.

[IceCandle]

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[jamster]

I'd call my lubed ergo clears fairly wobbly. I hadn't noticed them to be any less wobbly than other MX switches. Haven't noticed them pinging though.