Author Topic: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB  (Read 206150 times)

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Offline Tiramisuu

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #200 on: Sun, 14 September 2014, 00:49:10 »
Just staring at the layout.   At the end of the day I'm pretty sure I can get used to just about anything but the lack of symmetry in order to get all the features on the board feels a little awkward.   There is a lot of religion on the forum and I'm not sure it really matters as people can type 100 wpm on just about any layout that they know and are efficient with.   But symmetry is prettier to me in a small keyboard and you can't have a full tkl in one layer in a 60 key space and be symmetrical.    A fn key on both sides of the space bar similar ctl/alt to allow easy fn access and the ability to program my own layout seem like fairly high priority requirements in a reduced key layout for just about any use case.     That said none of the current set of keyboards have this feature set so I'm probably entirely wrong.

Keyboard error F1 to continue.

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Offline Matt3o

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #201 on: Sun, 14 September 2014, 01:11:18 »
Worse than the poker?

have a look at home/end/pgup/pgdown. They are simply unreachable. It's nice you can put the FN key basically anywhere, but the fn layer is designed by a drunken octopus.

PS: sorry for the digression, back in topic

Offline Canut

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #202 on: Tue, 16 September 2014, 06:04:44 »
Registering interest:

Keycaps:
Mac
 
Layout:
ANSI

Nav Cluster:
Option C: Arrow Cluster WITHOUT Delete next to Shift key
* Can we have [Modifier+Backspace] as forward delete?

Switches:
QUIET!!
(Clicky switches rattle and resonate freakishly loud in my Tactile Mini, and the clicky switches are painfully heavy on my fingers after my very long work days)

Pre-Assembled
(Oh, to have the free time to build custom keyboard projects...  :D)

Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #203 on: Tue, 16 September 2014, 23:15:41 »

Nav Cluster:
Option C: Arrow Cluster WITHOUT Delete next to Shift key
* Can we have [Modifier+Backspace] as forward delete?



Yes, that's already in the spec.


Offline djpyle

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #204 on: Thu, 18 September 2014, 00:50:21 »
Looks like I stumbled on this just in time!

I'd love one of these.

Mac
ANSI
Layout C
Clicky keys
Fully assembled

Can't wait to see how these turn out.

Offline prox

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #205 on: Thu, 18 September 2014, 01:05:18 »
Interested :)

PC
ANSI
Layout C
Quiet Alps
Assembled
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Offline djpyle

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #206 on: Thu, 18 September 2014, 21:47:25 »
Also, will separate keysets be available? I would love to have a mini-groupbuy of white PBT caps and have them dye-subbed with italic Apple legends
Show Image


Oh, man. That would be great!

Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #207 on: Thu, 18 September 2014, 22:47:51 »

Also, will separate keysets be available? I would love to have a mini-groupbuy of white PBT caps and have them dye-subbed with italic Apple legends
Show Image


Oh, man. That would be great!



FYI, old school Apple keyboards are easy to find on eBay and they have PBT caps, which will fit this new keyboard.


Offline Hak Foo

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #208 on: Thu, 18 September 2014, 23:35:40 »
The problem is that they're sort of a pain to scavenge a comprehensive set from.

None, to my knowledge have a 2x numpad +, or a full suite of 1.25x modifiers.  And, of course, nobody but you are doing .75x height keys.  It's okay if you're doing a 40% like the photo, but trying to cover a anything more elaborate, whether your 60%, or a conventional 101 or 104, is a problem.
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #209 on: Fri, 19 September 2014, 00:28:37 »
None, to my knowledge have a 2x numpad +, or a full suite of 1.25x modifiers.  And, of course, nobody but you are doing .75x height keys.  It's okay if you're doing a 40% like the photo, but trying to cover a anything more elaborate, whether your 60%, or a conventional 101 or 104, is a problem.
What 101 or 104 key keyboard are you trying to cover? Why not just use the AEK or AEK II directly (possibly with swapped-out switches, possibly with a Teensy protocol converter inside) if you want a “conventional” layout? The keycaps won’t have windows logos on them, but they should work just fine.

The Apple numpad layout is IMO better than the IBM PS/2 numpad layout, with an easier to reach minus and an equals sign.

As for the 60% board, the bottom row keycaps on the new Matias board are going to all be PBT anyway, so if the goal is just to have full PBT coverage, then the top 4 rows is all you need anyway. Just pick option C with the 2.75x1 right shift.
« Last Edit: Fri, 19 September 2014, 00:32:04 by jacobolus »

Offline Hak Foo

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #210 on: Fri, 19 September 2014, 01:03:24 »
Well, in my case, the target is an AT101W that I've already had a switch-swap done on.  Starting all over with a Apple board would be a substantial cost in labour, even assuming I desolder and reuse switches.
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Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #211 on: Fri, 19 September 2014, 01:19:10 »
Thanks for all the feedback.  I'll be preparing the GB post soon.

I'm considering adding one more option...  Backlighting.  What does everyone think?  Good?  Bad?  Don't bother?


Offline jacobolus

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #212 on: Fri, 19 September 2014, 01:35:03 »
Well, in my case, the target is an AT101W that I've already had a switch-swap done on.  Starting all over with a Apple board would be a substantial cost in labour, even assuming I desolder and reuse switches.
An AT101W is a tough one, since all the nice PBT keycaps Alps made were done before the advent of windows keys. You can get pretty close with an SGI Granite or other similar keyboard, but the bottom row isn’t going to match.

I guess you can wait for Matias to have a full set of PBT keycaps to buy. I think he was estimating the end of the year or something for that.

Offline Heliosphere

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #213 on: Fri, 19 September 2014, 01:35:54 »
Thanks for all the feedback.  I'll be preparing the GB post soon.

I'm considering adding one more option...  Backlighting.  What does everyone think?  Good?  Bad?  Don't bother?



If it can be done effectively and without too much extra cost, I'm sure it will be very popular. Backlit Matias keyboards aren't exactly common. :)

Offline jacobolus

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #214 on: Fri, 19 September 2014, 01:39:44 »
I'm considering adding one more option...  Backlighting.  What does everyone think?  Good?  Bad?  Don't bother?
It’s a great gimmick that will sell keyboards to certain crowds (mainly teenagers); most people around here don’t care for it, but some like it.

Offline Norwegian

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #215 on: Fri, 19 September 2014, 04:59:26 »
Thanks for all the feedback.  I'll be preparing the GB post soon.

I'm considering adding one more option...  Backlighting.  What does everyone think?  Good?  Bad?  Don't bother?

I guess some people are into that, but personally I've found that I've never really used the backlighting I have on my Ducky keyboard.
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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #216 on: Fri, 19 September 2014, 05:55:08 »
Id be into backlighting.

Offline geniekid

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #217 on: Fri, 19 September 2014, 08:23:49 »
I personally dislike backlighting, but assuming it doesn't add much to the overall cost I think it would generate more interest.  If you do this, consider offering key caps with translucent legends so the backlighting has a functional purpose instead of being purely aesthetic.

Offline dante

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #218 on: Fri, 19 September 2014, 08:39:07 »
Thanks for all the feedback.  I'll be preparing the GB post soon.

I'm considering adding one more option...  Backlighting.  What does everyone think?  Good?  Bad?  Don't bother?

Don't bother.

I would pay extra if there was an option for blank or side-print keycaps.

Offline Hypersphere

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #219 on: Fri, 19 September 2014, 08:58:43 »
I don't like backlighting. Could this be an option rather than being obligatory?

Offline divito

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #220 on: Fri, 19 September 2014, 10:06:27 »
If it doesn't significantly complicate things or costs, having that option would definitely be a nice bonus for those inclined.
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Offline hjkl_over_wasd

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #221 on: Fri, 19 September 2014, 10:35:58 »
Personally, I'd like backlights to be completely avoided. Even making it optional adds complexity and cost to the whole project. This means Matias and others involved in the production will have more details to worry about, which will slow the entire project down and only add to the cost.

Please focus all the attention to the relevant details.

Offline BearManJim

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #222 on: Fri, 19 September 2014, 14:25:45 »
I'm considering adding one more option...  Backlighting.  What does everyone think?  Good?  Bad?  Don't bother?

Yes please!!! Blue LEDs would go nicely on a white board with PBT keycaps  :p

Like on Hyde's Poker II;

« Last Edit: Fri, 19 September 2014, 14:28:33 by BearManJim »
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Offline Luminair

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #223 on: Sat, 20 September 2014, 02:54:22 »

Here's some input from an interested non-user of 60% keyboards. My first impressions:

1) The navigation cluster = superb
2) PBT by default = superb
3) Matte case instead of glossy = superb
4) Big, luscious space bar = superb

This is my favorite [theoretical] tiny keyboard yet.

Criticisms:

1) I think muscle memory is critical for use of the F-keys. Strike 1 against all tiny keyboards like this. If there is no space between the banks of 4, the user is forced to look, not feel. I can't say if there is a fix or not. Maybe I don't mind messing up the number row a bit by adding some spaces between them. (They might even be improved that way.) Or maybe different textures on the alternating banks. Color is not enough, but maybe rough vs smooth is the secret solution.

2) I think it is possible that Delete would be best placed somewhere above the enter key, because that is the level of a Delete key on a standard keyboard. Placing it by shift IS a good idea for the touch typist's pinky. But I am very curious to know the result of user tests with Delete in this position, compared to at the right of a smaller "\", compared to at the right of a smaller Backspace. To the right of the backspace might confuse the muscle memory, and I see that fitting it right of "\" is a problem to solve.

3) Any value the Windows key has on a keyboard like this is going to be less than the Fn key, right? Wouldn't it make sense then to fit a second Fn key on the right-hand side of the keyboard, even at the expense of further hurting (or annihilating) the remaining Windows key? I wouldn't miss the Windows key even if it just meant getting a bigger Ctrl key in its place.

Food for thought: Matias' 60% keyboard layout, but with a second Fn replacing the Delete key.  Do you feast?  If so, then where to put the delete function would be an open question.

My final first impressions for the record:
1) PrtScn, ScrLk, and Pause might be justified sitting on the lower arrow keys by their buddies PgUp PgDn.
2) Keys with 3 functions look like a mess to me, and I honestly start to wonder how to activate which function. Having no multi-color legends like on a laptop makes it worse. And having 4+ characters makes it even worse still. ") F10 0" is bad enough, but "{ print screen ]"? I almost wonder if the best solution here is taking advantage of the smaller Matias ALPS switches/caps and putting another function bar on top. 60% purists would protest, but they've also never had the chance to take advantage of compact Matias ALPS... until now. I'm not biased for any team, I just know that keyboards aren't done evolving yet.  There might be a better way than HHKB.
« Last Edit: Sat, 20 September 2014, 02:56:00 by Luminair »

Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #224 on: Sun, 21 September 2014, 18:11:34 »

Thanks for the additional feedback...

The consensus seems to be pretty clearly against backlighting, so we'll leave it off.  Quite frankly, we're already doing a lot with the dual-mount support and unique layout.




2) I think it is possible that Delete would be best placed somewhere above the enter key, because that is the level of a Delete key on a standard keyboard. Placing it by shift IS a good idea for the touch typist's pinky. But I am very curious to know the result of user tests with Delete in this position, compared to at the right of a smaller "\", compared to at the right of a smaller Backspace. To the right of the backspace might confuse the muscle memory, and I see that fitting it right of "\" is a problem to solve.


We haven't user tested the Delete key position (at least not in this context).  However, replacing "\" loses you that key, and really messes with ISO layouts.  For 60% layouts, intuitive options for delete key positions are limited.





3) Any value the Windows key has on a keyboard like this is going to be less than the Fn key, right? Wouldn't it make sense then to fit a second Fn key on the right-hand side of the keyboard, even at the expense of further hurting (or annihilating) the remaining Windows key? I wouldn't miss the Windows key even if it just meant getting a bigger Ctrl key in its place.


Nav cluster options B and C already have a 2nd Fn key on the right.



Okay, I think we've beaten this dead horse enough.  Will get the GB up soon.  Thanks again to everyone who fedback...




Offline Norwegian

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #225 on: Sun, 21 September 2014, 19:26:54 »
Very much looking forward to this!
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Offline dante

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #226 on: Tue, 23 September 2014, 12:39:52 »
Will get the GB up soon.

How soon until you list the GB?  If you can give a guess-timate that would be appreciated.

Just asking because KBP V60MTS is inbound and I want to make sure I can get everyone paid.

Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #227 on: Tue, 23 September 2014, 18:09:53 »
Will get the GB up soon.

How soon until you list the GB?  If you can give a guess-timate that would be appreciated.

Just asking because KBP V60MTS is inbound and I want to make sure I can get everyone paid.


Should be up in 2 weeks.

I have to get quotes for everything and then put up the order pages.  The GB will probably be open for a month.


Offline SacKRoll

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #228 on: Thu, 25 September 2014, 15:50:42 »
Keycaps:

PC
ANSI
PBT

Nav Cluster:

Full Nav Cluster (option A)
   
Switches:

Quiet ALPS


Pre-Assembled or Kit:

Fully Assembled Keyboard
 

Hi, Edgar Matias.
Will that 60% keyboard be included on the regular Matias line-up products, like the Quiet Pro?
Cheers. 

Offline trizkut

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #229 on: Thu, 25 September 2014, 16:14:19 »
Hi, Edgar Matias.
Will that 60% keyboard be included on the regular Matias line-up products, like the Quiet Pro?
Cheers. 



Once the GB is done, we won't offer these options again -- though we will offer keycaps, and we may do an aluminum case GB in the future -- but for PCBs, plates, stock cases, the GB will be your only chance to buy them.  As I said, it's a unique opportunity.


Offline SacKRoll

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #230 on: Thu, 25 September 2014, 16:27:52 »
Thank you, trizkut. I haven't seen that post... sorry, guys!

Offline trizkut

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #231 on: Thu, 25 September 2014, 16:36:55 »
Thank you, trizkut. I haven't seen that post... sorry, guys!

It's all good.  Matias has a bunch of replies in this thread so the information is a little scattered  :D


Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #232 on: Thu, 25 September 2014, 19:49:43 »

Hi, Edgar Matias.
Will that 60% keyboard be included on the regular Matias line-up products, like the Quiet Pro?
Cheers. 



Once the GB is done, we won't offer these options again -- though we will offer keycaps, and we may do an aluminum case GB in the future -- but for PCBs, plates, stock cases, the GB will be your only chance to buy them.  As I said, it's a unique opportunity.



Thanks for jumping in.  Yes, the info is all over the place in this thread.  I will tie it all together clearly when the GB is posted.

Just to clarify further...  I don't know if it will continue as an ongoing product in the lineup.  I hope it does, but it all depends on how popular the GB is.

In either case, the GB will be the only opportunity to buy the component parts listed, and the only guaranteed way to get the keyboard.  It may never be produced again after this GB.

 

Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #233 on: Tue, 30 September 2014, 14:42:47 »


Okay, I now have ALPS and Cherry stabiilizers working on the same mounting plate.  See attached photos.

We're in the home stretch...



78480-0



78482-1



78484-2



78486-3



78488-4



78490-5



78492-6



78494-7



78496-8



Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #234 on: Tue, 30 September 2014, 14:45:07 »
^^ Is it just me or can the cherry switches be opened with the way this plate is cut out?? :eek:

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #235 on: Tue, 30 September 2014, 14:45:16 »
I have one excitement. Someone please post the appropriate meme which conveys said excitement.

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #236 on: Tue, 30 September 2014, 14:46:02 »

Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #237 on: Tue, 30 September 2014, 14:48:23 »

^^ Is it just me or can the cherry switches be opened with the way this plate is cut out?? :eek:



Yes, I think so, though I didn't try.


Offline jacobolus

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #238 on: Tue, 30 September 2014, 18:01:56 »
Okay, I now have ALPS and Cherry stabiilizers working on the same mounting plate.  See attached photos.
Wow, that’s awesome! We really need to get all the hobbyist board designs using these stabilizers, assuming they work just as well as the standard ones.

Offline hjkl_over_wasd

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #239 on: Tue, 30 September 2014, 21:40:12 »
Are those the PBT caps that will be used?

Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #240 on: Tue, 30 September 2014, 22:07:57 »

Are those the PBT caps that will be used?



The keycaps shown in the photo are all ABS caps.

The Cherry keycaps are from a Das Keyboard made by Costar in Taiwan, and a Tesoro made by Ione in China.



Offline Synjin

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #241 on: Tue, 30 September 2014, 22:11:47 »
When will the GB officially start and how long will it run?

Offline belac

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #242 on: Tue, 30 September 2014, 22:22:43 »
When will the GB officially start and how long will it run?


Should be up in 2 weeks.

I have to get quotes for everything and then put up the order pages.  The GB will probably be open for a month.

Offline SacKRoll

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #243 on: Mon, 06 October 2014, 21:42:59 »
I think we'll have good news at this week...

Offline Nick91

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #244 on: Mon, 13 October 2014, 16:23:52 »
Mac
 
ISO (Nordic?  :))

Full Nav Cluster (option A)

Quiet ALPS

Fully Assembled Keyboard

Offline dante

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #245 on: Mon, 13 October 2014, 18:22:57 »
Matias, I noticed in the Wraith Interest Check that Linear Alps are an option.  Are these going to be available on the 60% as well? Can you talk about them - for instance, will they be dampened linears (is that even an option, possibly creating two linear switch options?)

If linear switches won't be ready in time would it be possible to add an option to buy a single production linear switch just to try out?

Offline SacKRoll

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #246 on: Tue, 14 October 2014, 17:18:47 »
I think we'll have good news at this week...

...I think I was wrong.  :'(

Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #247 on: Tue, 14 October 2014, 17:49:07 »
Matias, I noticed in the Wraith Interest Check that Linear Alps are an option.  Are these going to be available on the 60% as well? Can you talk about them - for instance, will they be dampened linears (is that even an option, possibly creating two linear switch options?)

If linear switches won't be ready in time would it be possible to add an option to buy a single production linear switch just to try out?


Yes, I can add it -- in fact, already have.  I don't know if we'll get enough people to do an assembled version, but the solder-your-own option is always there, or I can hook you up with someone who can assemble a custom one for a fee.

We expect to have the linear switches shipping by around December/January.  They are dampened, with the click leaf flattened to eliminate the tactile bump.  We did 5 different designs, four of which were spring-only and the fifth had the leaf.  The fifth one was judged as being the best.

« Last Edit: Tue, 14 October 2014, 18:04:27 by Matias »

Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #248 on: Tue, 14 October 2014, 17:55:54 »
I think we'll have good news at this week...

...I think I was wrong.  :'(


Sorry for the delay.   I've got all the pricing together, but still need to revise the write-up and setup the order pages.

Will get it up ASAP...




Offline blackbox

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Re: [IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB
« Reply #249 on: Tue, 14 October 2014, 18:11:33 »
I think we'll have good news at this week...

...I think I was wrong.  :'(


Sorry for the delay.   I've got all the pricing together, but still need to revise the write-up and setup the order pages.

Will get it up ASAP...

Awesome!
Keyboards: Dell AT102W (matias standard clicky), Maltron two-hand 3D fully ergonomic keyboard (Vintage MX Black). CM QF XT (MX Grey) IBM model M

The LAN table!
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62536.0