CVT Avant keyboards

[ocdonkb]

Anyone know the story of this company? I don't hear about it being talked about here often.

https://www.cvtinc.com/products/keyboards/menu.htm

Here they are doing a interview, talking about their Northgate-derivative boards.

http://www.lets-talk-computers.com/guests/creative_vision/keyboard/

Their order page seem very outdated, and only have PS/2 versions. Which makes me wonder if the company is on its last legs, selling what's left in the warehouse

[ch_123]

You think that site is bad, check out Unicomps...

Some people around here have them. Not sure how good they are.

[quadibloc]

My guess is that the company is thriving, but the keyboards are too expensive for people here to be interested in for what they offer - and are instead being sold to specialized markets.

[itlnstln]

I don't think anyone here has a CVT.  They are great keyboards since they are exactly like the original Northgates.  The problem is, you can get an original Northgate (even NIB) for less (yet, another bad keyboard site).

[itlnstln]

Damn, for some reason, I thought the prices were on the site. Now that I think about it, I sent him an e-mail for pricing when I was in the market for the Evolution. The Evolution was $85 used and $125 new, IIRC.

[ch_123]

Do these use complicated Alps or what?

[itlnstln]

Not sure.  No one has a CVT to check out.  One more plus for buying a Northgate instead.

[ocdonkb]

I don't think anyone here has a CVT.  They are great keyboards since they are exactly like the original Northgates.  The problem is, you can get an original Northgate (even NIB) for less (yet, another bad keyboard site).

yeah, saw that site before. It's a chuckle, like the keyboards, it's stuck in the 1990's

[maxlugar]

I don't think anyone here has a CVT.  They are great keyboards since they are exactly like the original Northgates.  The problem is, you can get an original Northgate (even NIB) for less (yet, another bad keyboard site).

I bought and returned a CVT Avant Stellar several months ago.

Great customer service with a 30-day money back guarantee, thank god.

Even though the CVT Avant Stellar has plate mounted key switches and a metal back, to me, it feels nothing like the Northgate Omnikey.

The key switches feel very much like the Fukkas in the Filco Zero or the simplifed ALPS in the DSI ASK 6600U - hollow and unsubstantial.  Key caps are labeled with decals.

I personally could not justify spending $200 for a new Avant Stellar.  I returned it and got a used Northgate Omnikey 102 from Bob Tibbetts at Northgate-Keyboard-Repair.com for $125.  It looks and feels practially new, and the build quality is outstanding.  Double shot keys, metal case, etc.  (Yes, it has DIP switches to change key layout from QWERTY).

Aesthetics have never been very important to me, but I have to say, that the Omnikey is one ugly keyboard.  Everything about the Northgates scream retro.  My 25 year old 84-key IBM PC AT keyboards are downright sexy next to the Northgates!

Please note CVT is a great company that provides excellent cutomer service and product support.  My overall experience with CVT was very positive.  Many people obviously like the CVT Avant Prime and Avant Stellar keyboards.  My personal opinion is that they do not measure up to the original Northgates.  Wellington, wherever he is, would probably like them because of his love for Fukka key switches  

[itlnstln]

The key switches feel very much like the Fukkas in the Filco Zero or the simplifed ALPS in the DSI ASK 6600U - hollow and unsubstantial.

I pretty much thought this was the case since they wouldn't (shouldn't) be able to get complicated ALPS that Northgates have.  Disappointing, but not suprising.  At least they are a good company.  I am suprised, though, that they didn't continue to use double-shot keys; especially for $200.

[microsoft windows]

They are just trying to make more of a profit. You know it costs much less than $200 to make them.

[maxlugar]

They are just trying to make more of a profit. You know it costs much less than $200 to make them.

Wow, really?  Maybe you could help us understand how that profit thing works.

[msiegel]

Wow, really?  Maybe you could help us understand how that profit thing works.

:lol: hey! you have him at a disadvantage

[paranonia]

One of my favorite bsd hacker once talked about this 20-year Northgate omnikey/plus compared to Avant Stellar.

http://www.lemis.com/grog/diary-jul2009.php
check 17 July and 18 July.

and remap keybinds on Avant Stellar
http://www.lemis.com/grog/HOWTO/Avant-Stellar.php

[quadibloc]

I am suprised, though, that they didn't continue to use double-shot keys; especially for $200.

I suspect that very few of their customers would care or notice, so it's a reasonable place to save money. Normally, the only time you see double-shot keys is when one company is making a lot of keyboards, so it can afford the large tooling costs - once those one-time costs are paid, double-shot keys are not more expensive than many of the other kinds of keycap.

If they had used double-shot keys before, and didn't continue, it's probably because they lost their former supplier.

[keyjay]

I spent lots of time researching about two years ago, and bought a CVT Avant Stellar and a Unicomp to try out. (I've never tried any of the other Alps types mentioned in this thread.) I'm a touch-typist and businessperson who needs my stuff to work and work right. I'd read that far less mistakes happen, and less fatigue, so I tried both.

The Unicomp was a joke. Total crap. Very cheaply made. Felt and sounded like cheap plastic out of a box of cereal. Keys had little "tails" where the injection molding was not done cleanly. And as to performance, it was actually "work" to use it -- there was far too much resistance to the keys (and I'm a male who toys with martial arts for years).

The CVT Avant Stellar was loud and had a metallic echo on the desk, so I stuck some new kitchen sponges under it and that dramatically dampened the noise. Yes, there are decals for the key labels but they're done extremely professionally, and now that it's been about two years I can say they've maintain their brand-new look all this time (fawr better than most "printed" keys whose letters tend to rub off over time). Can't "feel" the decals at all; it's like they're not there. None has ever shown the slightest sign of wear. Until this thread mentioned it, I never even though about them being decals.

As to performance, in no time flat I fell in love with the CVT Avant Stellar. I type many times more reliably with it than with any "normal" (membrane) type of keyboard, even a Keytronic can't begin to compare. I just love it. It's a tool that does the job as well as anything I could have ever hoped for. I'm so happy with it that the reason I found this forum thread is that the past week or two CVT's website shows them out of stock and I was worried I couldn't find more when I need them (and right now I want to get one for a consultant of mine for his new office, as a gift).

I can't compare to other Alps keyboards since I've never used one, but I'm personally someone who cares at least a little how my equipment looks -- professional and businesslike is what I like. I greatly prefer the black over one of the antiquated cream colored ones. The Siig I'm seeing online (never heard of it until seeing it in this thread) seems like it can't possibly be a fraction of the quality of the Stellar, just based on price.

I use the extra row of programmable keys on the left side constantly, even if only for the ability to do copy and paste with one-button ease using my left hand (right is on the mouse). It makes me a lot more productive when I need to be doing a lot of copy-paste.

The keyboard overall makes me a lot more productive than any I've used before.

If something else has as good or better of a tactile response and solid feel, I'd love to know what to focus on getting. The quality of the CVT has me pretty spoiled, though. I'm guessing the only other way to get this kind of solid feel and response is a refurbed Northgate (uh, that's if somebody could paint it black for me). A number of brand names are mentioned in this thread. Does any really have this solid of a feel to it?

I would love to know.

Yet, if I never found a better keyboard than the CVT, I’d be very happy. I feel it’s as good as I could want.

I'm just wondering what to do if they stop shipping.

[keyb_gr]

The Unicomp was a joke. Total crap. Very cheaply made. Felt and sounded like cheap plastic out of a box of cereal. Keys had little "tails" where the injection molding was not done cleanly. And as to performance, it was actually "work" to use it -- there was far too much resistance to the keys (and I'm a male who toys with martial arts for years).

Those molding artifacts (ripster calls 'em "Uni-Crud") are well-known around here. Seems like buckling spring boards are not your cup of tea... they are a little on the higher-force side of things but if you are a bit of a heavy hitter to begin with (possibly with only so-so motorical control), they are hard to beat. (Yours truly does not like black Alps in return - feels like banging on the metal plate all the time, ouch.)

Yes, there are decals for the key labels but they're done extremely professionally, and now that it's been about two years I can say they've maintain their brand-new look all this time (fawr better than most "printed" keys whose letters tend to rub off over time).

I think these are not real decals (we only like to call them that) but rather silk-screened lettering covered with some transparent plastic that will not wear off easily, like what you find on inexpensive Logitech 'boards (you can find macro shots of those round here).

I can't compare to other Alps keyboards since I've never used one, but I'm personally someone who cares at least a little how my equipment looks -- professional and businesslike is what I like. I greatly prefer the black over one of the antiquated cream colored ones.

Beige ones sure are a lot easier on the wallet though (since black ones have to be bought new in most cases), and shiny keys are a whole lot less obvious. They tend to be very easy on the eyes, too, and with two-shot or dye sublimated lettering are hard to beat in terms of readability. In terms of looks, well, you get used to it. It doesn't always need to be as industrial as a Model M, I find that a Cherry G80-1000 is one of the nicer-looking vintage beige boards for example.

(That from a frugal collector with a bunch of beige and some light grey, but zero black boards. I wouldn't mind one of these black ESCOM boards apparently OEM'd by Fujitsu as far as looks go, but sadly one would have to mod some decent innards into these first as they are a cheap rubber dome board. Incidentally, they are some of the few black vintage boards to be found over here. Cherry boards only came in beige until 2002, interestingly with dark grey / black models being sold in the US years before.)

If something else has as good or better of a tactile response and solid feel, I'd love to know what to focus on getting. The quality of the CVT has me pretty spoiled, though. I'm guessing the only other way to get this kind of solid feel and response is a refurbed Northgate (uh, that's if somebody could paint it black for me). A number of brand names are mentioned in this thread. Does any really have this solid of a feel to it?

You haven't tried anything with Cherry blues or browns in it, or a Topre for that matter, all of which tend to be well-liked medium to low force options. Maybe a Filco modded with keycaps from a Cherry G81-xxxxHyU POS board, as some have round here? (Most people seem to classify the Filcos as being very solidly built, only the keycaps, while OK by themselves, can't hold a candle to the thicker and heavier vintage Cherry ones with two-shot labeling.)

[itlnstln]

Yeah, yeah - the Vintage guys will descend on me telling me how much better they were "in the day".

Well the "molding crud" on the F is actually sculptured art.  See, in the pic you posted, IBM carved a torch with a flame into the back of the keycap as symbolism of the Model F lighting the way for other IBM keyboards to come.
 
 
 
 
...Or it's just molding crud from manufacturing.

[itlnstln]

A 20-something-year-old hair, to be exact.  It came from the factory like that.

[ch_123]

Yeah, yeah - the Vintage guys will descend on me telling me how much better they were "in the day".

That's nowhere near as bad as some of the Unicomp or later Lexmark/Maxiswitch keys I've seen.

[itlnstln]

That's nowhere near as bad as some of the Unicomp or later Lexmark/Maxiswitch keys I've seen.

Right on time...

[Buckling_Summer]

Well the "molding crud" on the F is actually sculptured art.  See, in the pic you posted, IBM carved a torch with a flame into the back of the keycap as symbolism of the Model F lighting the way for other IBM keyboards to come.
 
 
 
 
...Or it's just molding crud from manufacturing.

Yeah baby! I share your point of view. :love:
Ripster, this is just another sexy artifact imho.
This is called "perfection through intended imperfection".

The above maxim cannot be applied in some cases.
For example, ripster cannot provide us with some molding artifacts related to the legendary LEGO(tm) plastic.  :laugh:

[itlnstln]

Wow.  The decal work on the key legends is teh suck.  It looks like someone just slapped poorly-cut Scotch tape on the legends.  Unacceptable for a nearly-$200 keyboard.

[itlnstln]

I mean, I don't go all crazy about key legends, but for $200, they should at least step their game up from pad-printing-and-decals. At least Costar figures out how to do a better form of pad printing for a cheaper keyboard. CVT should have at least used lasered caps, or something. Maybe it's just the black version. I wonder if the beige version uses laser-etching (or something else).

[itlnstln]

We would probably save about $.50 per 'board if they just got rid the coating.  One of the only reasons I bought another one is that I have a lot of faith in being able to get a KBC keycap set (or some other, better keycap set) at some point in the future.  It might be wishful thinking, but if not, at least it's a pretty good keyboard.

[fastbuck]

I have both - the original Northgate Omnikey, and beige CVT Avant Prime and Avant Stellar keyboards. As far as I can tell, Northgate and Avant feel the same, but there are few things that make Avant a much, much better keyboard that really stands out from the rest.



I took all boards apart, side by side, and if there is any cost cutting in CVT boards, I just don't see it. If anything, Avant is superior in that CVT added stabilizing feet at the top of the PCB - 2 on the Stellar, and 3 on the Prime to better support key mounting plates. So on pics bellow you can see white stabilizing legs at the top of Avant boards, where as Northgate does not have them.




I guess, one thing CVT did screw up was the cord, that is not removable on the Avants. It was detachable on the Northgate, which I though was a nice touch and made the board easier to store. Except for the stabilizing feet, the cord and the controller, the keyboards are pretty much identical.




Here are some pics of keys from the Northgate next to Avant keys. The 6 keys with the Window key are from Avant Stellar, the other set of keys are from the Northgate. Notice that all keys are double-shot, except for the Windows key on the Avant.




Another interesting thing I noticed, even though CVT completely redesigned the board, it still says Northgate, as you can see in the lower left corner on the pic bellow.



Switches in Avant and Northgate boards are all simplified white clicky Alps. They are all interchangeable and I can't tell the difference between them. They do wear out after a while and become less "clicky" - have not figured out how to restore them yet, so in the mean time I've been using keys from the Northgate to keep the Avant going.

CVT and Northgate keyboards are all N-key rollover, although only Northgate board says it right on the PCB - check the upper left corner on the pic bellow:


Here are some back-plate ID label shots. Note that FCC-IDs are pretty much the same:





All in all, I like Avants much better then the Northgate - they did away with DIP switches, made all keys fully programmable, added extra function keys, macros and alternative mappings. With Northgate DIP switches, only a few key could be changed. For Avant Prime - I reprogrammed the extra set of function keys on the left to pg up/dwn, arrow up/down, left/right, home/end, space/enter. With this mapping I use can use my left hand for browsing and reading documents - give my right hand a break. I have RSI, and that helps out a lot!  And for Avant Stellar - I completely reprogrammed the layout from QWERTY to Colemak (a modern Dworak alternative, that keeps most QWERTY shortcut keys).

Best thing about programming this boards is that it can be done from the keyboard without using any software. CVT has software to do the same thing, but I never tried it, as it was so easy to do it strait from the keyboard. This settings are stored in flash memory on the keyboard, so you can unplug it and take to any other computer and it will still retain it's settings. The LED in the UP ARROW key on the Avant keyboard lights up when the MACRO mode is turned on.



For macro mode - you can assign a key sequence to any key, but not a combo (like Alt-F4, Win-L, etc), so may be software will allow me to do that - I haven't had the time to check it out - if it does, let me know, as I'd like to do that!

[fastbuck]

Hmm... the ALPS wiki is silent on what kind of switch is in the 104 keyboard models but they could be Complicateds OR Fukkas (Type 1 Simplified) like in the Filco Zero.

Interesting that they get less clicky over time.  You might be able to bend the click leaf out as a fix but what a pain.

I looked at the wiki and had switches from all of this boards apart - as far as I can tell, they are all Type 1 simplified. I don't have any idea why they stop clicking, but I suspect previous owner and the condition that the boards were in (filthy) had something to do with that. So I don't think it's as much a problem with the metal leaf deteriorating, as it is with sticky mess inside some of this switches - they are not sealed and spilled liquid could find it's way inside the switches. I took one of the switches apart and cleaned it and now it's clicky again - I like clicky!

Anybody have an idea on how to clean them? I don't want to use water, as it will no doubt get trapped inside the switches and promote rust.

- One idea I have is to put it in to my parts washer, it's using kersosin, and should not cause rust, though the board would smell for a while.

- Another idea is to unsolder the switches and run them in ultrasonic cleaner in a beaker filled with isopropyl alcohol.

- Yet another idea is to take switches apart and clean the top of the housing in ultrasonic cleaner with isopropil alcohol, and the bottom with mineral spirits.

The former two options look to be very labor intensive, so I'm contemplating runnig this thing through kerosin parts washer, smell notwithstanding

[fastbuck]

Nice boards, both of them. But three words: Huge Enter Key.

Yes, it's just like Model F/AT. I'm using Model M at the moment, and missing the Big Enter.

[ricercar]

Nice hardware. You get extra credit for the clean images. No such thing as too much photography.

[TexasFlood]

I recently rescued some keyboards from my basement which had been banished while cleaning up & making room for visiting relatives.  One of these, the northgate onmnikey ultra is now back on my desk, picture of it attached below.

I did some googling after the rescue, to catch up a bit on keyboards.  Saw a thread at tech report forums that sounded very much like keyjay so likely the same person - started off looking for a keyboard, tried a unicomp, disliked it vehemently, ended up as I recall with a black avant stellar.  I like my original northgate.  The black color might be cool as well as the improved programming features.  But I'm too cheap to buy one, at least as long as my northgate holds up.  I've never taken mine apart so the pictures were quite interesting, thanks for posting those.

[didjamatic]

Is there an undisputed "best" northgate?  I've read so many different things on them and adding in the many ALPS variations, I'm not sure which to look for.  I'd like to add 1 or 2 extremely clean models to my collection but not sure which to go with.  

It's very interesting to hear about the Avant.  I had written them off after reading a negative review of one on here somewhere but the poster above seems to prefer it.  And since I use win keys heavily, maybe that's what I should be looking at.

[Specter_57]

..
Found photos of an Avant Stellar over at ArsTechnica.










The microcontroller for this board is an Atmel AT89c52.  Interesting

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Spec_57


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