Filco Blue or Brown?

[Brodie337]

OK, so after getting a new job, I have decided to reward myself by blowing my paycheck on a shiny (or matte) new keyboard.

My current board is a Chicony KB-5181, with what I think are Monterey SMK switches, but I'm looking to replace it with a Filco "Otaku" Tenkeyless with either Blue or Brown switches.

My question is which switches should I go for?

I'd rather not have the noise of the blues, but I'm worried the browns will be too light after the switches that I currently use, and that the tactile bump ill be too soft.

I don't mind spending more, as long as I know that this keyboard will be properly suited to me.

The keyboard, must, however, be a compact 'board, ideally a standard(ish) layout (I don't mind a large enter key), but hopefully a normal board, just tenkeyless. A sharper tactile bump would be nice, but not essential, as long as its noticeable. Also, if possible, the option of blank keys would be nice.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks,
Brodie.

[didjamatic]

The Monterey SMK's are closer to Cherry Blues than Browns because they're tactile and clicky.  The Cherry Browns are only tactile which it sounds like what you want.  Since you already have a clicky board and want something quieter, the Browns seem like a better choice.

This Cherry Brown Compaq is a solid board and much cheaper, so you could pick it up and give it a try.  I have one of them and a Filco and honestly can't tell you that I really prefer the Filco over the Compaq other than the keys on the far right take some getting used to.  The Compaq is very well built and some argue has better switches than the Filcos.

[patrickgeekhack]

If you want a noticeable tactile bump, then blue Cherries will be better than brown Cherries. The tactile bump is there in the brown Cherries but some people don't notice it. If you have been using heavier switches it will take you some time (different for each person) to start noticing it. Of course, the click in the blue Cherries also helps.

[patrickgeekhack]

The Monterey SMK's are closer to Cherry Blues than Browns because they're tactile and clicky.  The Cherry Browns are only tactile which it sounds like what you want.  Since you already have a clicky board and want something quieter, the Browns seem like a better choice.

This Cherry Brown Compaq is a solid board and much cheaper, so you could pick it up and give it a try.  I have one of them and a Filco and honestly can't tell you that I really prefer the Filco over the Compaq other than the keys on the far right take some getting used to.  The Compaq is very well built and some argue has better switches than the Filcos.

I don't know about the Compaq. Personally (other's opinion may differ), if I had bought a Compaq MX11800 to try the brown Cherries before buying my Filco, I would not have bought the Filco. I'm glad I did not go this route. To me, although both keyboards use the same switch, the feel is quite different from one to the other. Again, this is just my opinion.

[Brodie337]

If you want a noticeable tactile bump, then blue Cherries will be better than brown Cherries. The tactile bump is there in the brown Cherries but some people don't notice it.

That pretty much makes my choice for me, but just to make sure...

Does anyone have some idea of how loud the Blues are? (I understand that this will be hard to do, given how subjective this is.) I don't mind a bit of noise, but quiet would be nice.

[patrickgeekhack]

That pretty much makes my choice for me, but just to make sure...

Does anyone have some idea of how loud the Blues are? (I understand that this will be hard to do, given how subjective this is.) I don't mind a bit of noise, but quiet would be nice.

Tough question to answer. It all depends on the desk, the background noise and how hard you press on the keys. It also depends on whether the keys are plate or PCB-mounted. Where are you going to use it? At home or at work?

[Brodie337]

This will be mainly at home, and I'll probably move the Chicony to work (I work in retail, no cubicles here!) to show them the light that is a mechanical keyboard.

I do keep a spare rubber dome board on hand though, for when there are others sleeping.

Just a thought, does anyone other than Deck to a cherry clear 'board?

[didjamatic]

Does anyone have some idea of how loud the Blues are?

Take a handful of change, throw it on a cookie sheet, put your SMK keyboard on it, connect a microphone to a Marshall stack and turn to eleven.  Proceed typing.

[patrickgeekhack]

Take a handful of change, throw it on a cookie sheet, put your SMK keyboard on it, connect a microphone to a Marshall stack and turn to eleven.  Proceed typing.

Show Image

It's not that loud, is it? I guess everyone perceives the same sensory information differently.

[patrickgeekhack]

This will be mainly at home, and I'll probably move the Chicony to work (I work in retail, no cubicles here!) to show them the light that is a mechanical keyboard.

I do keep a spare rubber dome board on hand though, for when there are others sleeping.

Just a thought, does anyone other than Deck to a cherry clear 'board?

A good option would be to have a rubber dome wireless keyboard for the time when everyone is sleeping at night. You may find that the noise may not bother some as you would think. My wife and my daughter don't seem to be bothered, it's me how once I found how quiet the Topre is compared to the blue Cherries who do not want to type on the blue Cherries at night. My wife said that she would only notice the sound if she paid attention to it. She also took notice of the noise level difference after I had the Topre. Before the Topre she did not have anything else to compare the noise level too. I went from buckling spring to ALPS and to Blue Cherries. As you can see, the blue Cherries were quieter than the other two.

[cheater1034]

The tactile bump on the browns is very noticeable, especially if you're coming from cherry blues (it's very similar, but smoother).

The browns are barely lighter than the blues - but it's noticeable when comparing side by side.

The browns tactility is great, they are extremely quiet once you learn how to type on them (Coming from typing on cherry blues properly doesn't take much adjusting) - and are a lot less annoying (due to the noise and smoothness) - it still has a very satisfying sound coming from a rubber dome.

It's extremely inaccurate to say that the tactile bump on a brown cherry filco isn't noticeable to some people. Here's what I say about it: The tactile bump is about identical to the blue cherries (5g less force to get there, but side-by-side when the switch activates on either one, you don't want to keep going) -- there's actually times where I did a single key press trying to hit the activation point on the browns and thought I was bottomed out, but I wasn't I had no problem finding the activation point - same as on cherry blues.

Here's what else I have to say: Most people who say they don't notice the bump on the cherry browns probably didn't notice it on the cherry blues either, they probably noticed the click and associated it with "tactile bump" - I prefer typing to be done by the fingers instead of the ears anyway - maybe that's why I love the browns so much (again, I was perfect at touch typing with the blues - within one day of using browns I had no problems either - they are very similar)

Another observation, although this could be totally inaccurate (although it seem true to me after several teststoconfirmthistheorying):
1. It seems like it takes more force to get to the activation on the blues - but after you get past the bump there is no more resistance til bottoming out - which makes it really unpleasurable to bottom out at all, even stricter touch typing
2. It seems like it takes less force to get to the activation on the browns - but after you get past the bump there is still resistance that increases til bottoming out - which I LOVE compared to the blues - it makes it extremely easy to touch type AND a lot more enjoyable if you do bottom out.

I've also read that the pcb-mounted cherry browns are more tactile - I don't think that is true, the sound is most likely different, but not the feel of the actual switch.

Come on people , don't make this man buy a keyboard based on false pretenses, the tactile bump is easily noticed (if you can't notice it on the browns, you won't notice it on the blues either)

This is like people complaining about extremely bright keyboard LEDs, first of all they shouldnt be on (numlock is understandable, otherwise come on), and second of all - why are you looking straight down at the keyboard LEDs. This is like saying - "the sun is too bright! Because when I look right in to it I burn my eyes out). You wouldnt go and hold a flash light right at your eyes either - come on

[Brodie337]

My bass amp goes up to 20, will that do?

On a more serious note, does anyone else do a board with Cherry clears?

EDIT: Gah, Just when I thought I had made a decision! ^^^

Either way, the more input the better

[patrickgeekhack]

On a more serious note,, does anyone else do a board with Cherry clears?

Unfortunately, I cannot help you here.

[Brodie337]

Unfortunately, I cannot help you here.

Thanks anyway. I love the Deck Legend, but the backlighting and sheer size of it turn me off. I like to have my keyboard centered to the monitor, but hate having to have my mouse WAY off to the right, hence the need for a compact keyboard.

[patrickgeekhack]

The tactile bump on the browns is very noticeable, especially if you're coming from cherry blues (it's very similar, but smoother).

The browns are barely lighter than the blues - but it's noticeable when comparing side by side.

I don't argue that the brown Cherries are nice to type on. They are. Once one is used to light switches, then one will notice the bump. But some people mentioned that they failed to notice it. One either loves the click in the blue Cherries or hate it. There's not in between.

[patrickgeekhack]

Thanks anyway. I love the Deck Legend, but the backlighting and sheer size of it turn me off. I like to have my keyboard centered to the monitor, but hate having to have my mouse WAY off to the right, hence the need for a compact keyboard.

You're welcome. Take your time to think about it and go with what your heart truly desires. If you don't, you'll always wonder what the other would have been like. Of course, sometimes this does not work and you end up buying both. I have 6 different switches, but two blue Cherries. Did I tell you how much I like the blue Cherries? :-)

[Brodie337]

Lol, yeah.

Money, in this case, isn't an issue (You heard me right! Go nuts!), but I can't seem to find anyone who will do the board I want, unless there isn't much difference between the feel of the blues and browns. In that case I'm decided.

[cheater1034]

I don't argue that the brown Cherries are nice to type on. They are. Once one is used to light switches, then one will notice the bump. But some people mentioned that they failed to notice it. One either loves the click in the blue Cherries or hate it. There's not in between.

But what i'm saying is that I came from months of typing on blue cherries, and immediately noticed the bump on the browns - it's practically identical except for the 5g difference in force (which isn't enough of a difference to not notice the bump - even if you're typing on it as if it were a blue cherry). I think the ones that didn't notice the bump on the browns are coming from years on a 70g force board or something like that, they certainly can't be coming off of a blue cherry. (meaining, if that 70g force person got a blue cherry they probably wouldnt notice the bump either, just the click) - If someone can feel the bump on a blue they will most definitely feel it on a brown :\ (feel, not hear) - I can slam the keys down on both switches and can't feel the bump - but I can hear the click on the blue (which gives the illusion of feeling activation i guess?)

If you're typing on browns or blues as if they were a model m then you are doing it wrong - lets just put it that way - Several people associate tactility with click - the two are totally unrelated.

The decision of the poster should simply depend on if he wants click or not - It's fairly easy to adjust when it comes to +/- 5g force - I suspect if you had drawn force curves they would look awfully similar too. (the blues with + a little force before the bump, and faster drop off after)

[Brodie337]

Thanks alot for that reply, it's a big help.

I would like to buy an non clicky board, but the weighting and tactility of the browns had me worried.

To any Chicony KB-5181 users out ther, how would you compare the overall weight of the Browns to the 5181?

[Brodie337]

Unfortunately, our non-mechanical minded friends and family don't agree, hence my desire for a quieter board.

Thanks alot though, that would be really helpful.

[Brodie337]

I find the Chicony just fine. My girlfriend on the other hand...

As for the cherry, while it has the right switches, its too big. I'm after a tenkeyless board. I don't think the browns would be too light, given that the review of the Chicony on here (Can't remember whose) found the switches to be lighter than a blue.

By the way, "Here" is Australia, for those who are interested.

[Brodie337]

I'll see if I can dig up a chart showing weights of aussie coins and see if I can get a weight of the switches. My board is 20 years old, or near enough, so I don't expect much consistency

[maxlugar]

Unfortunately, our non-mechanical minded friends and family don't agree, hence my desire for a quieter board.

Thanks alot though, that would be really helpful.

The Filco with Blue Cherries is louder than the Chicony KB-5181.

Blue Cherry switches have a distinct high pitch click vs. the SMK Monterey switches which have more of a muted click.

Overall, I personally prefer Blues over Browns, but if you are looking primarily for a quiter keyboard than the Chicony KB-5181 and considering a Blue Cherry keyboard, you are moving in the wrong direction.

[Brodie337]

The Chicony keys seem to let go about 65 grams, but that's at the point of the tactile break. to get there, you only need about 40 grams to get there. Mind you, this was an incredibly crude approach.

EDIT: Quiet, while nice, is a non issue if the 'board doesn't feel right.

[trievalot]

Hey, another Aussie.....where are you in oz?
Im Adelaide......

[maxlugar]

The Chicony keys seem to let go about 65 grams, but that's at the point of the tactile break. to get there, you only need about 40 grams to get there. Mind you, this was an incredibly crude approach.

EDIT: Quiet, while nice, is a non issue if the 'board doesn't feel right.

The SMK Montereys are lighter than buckling springs or complicated white ALPS key switches, but not as light Cherry MX Blue or Brown key switches.

[maxlugar]

EDIT: Quiet, while nice, is a non issue if the 'board doesn't feel right.

On second thought, bag both the Blue and Brown Cherries and get yourself a Topre Realforce 87U or HHKB Pro 2.  The Topre key switches are quiet and tactile.  There are none better.

[Brodie337]

trievalot, I'm in Northern NSW.

Whats the weight in grams of the brown switches? I have a hard time not bottoming out on the SMKs, though I'm not sure if thats because of the light weight, or fact that theres a sharp tactile bump, and the weight drops off so suddenly after it. Am I right in saying that the Brown Cherries pick up in weight towards the bottom of their stroke? If so, how much?

EDIT: The Realforce tenkeyless is starting to look more attractive, but does the weight pick up at the bottom of the stroke?

[ocdonkb]

At the risk of this turning into another Topre thread, I'll just say that if you want a non-clicky keyboard, and the cost is no problem, the Topre is the best choice. It isn't completely quiet, its sound can be best described as... unique and addictive.

Once I've used my 87U for at least a month, I'll post a review. For now, that's all I'll say.

[maxlugar]

trievalot, I'm in Northern NSW.

Whats the weight in grams of the brown switches? I have a hard time not bottoming out on the SMKs, though I'm not sure if thats because of the light weight, or fact that theres a sharp tactile bump, and the weight drops off so suddenly after it. Am I right in saying that the Brown Cherries pick up in weight towards the bottom of their stroke? If so, how much?

EDIT: The Realforce tenkeyless is starting to look more attractive, but does the weight pick up at the bottom of the stroke?

The actuation force for both the Brown and Blue Cherry MX key switches is 2.1 oz., whatever than converts to in grams.  I assure you that both require less force than the SMK Montereys used in the Chicony KB-5181.

With the Topre key switches, you will experience "snap with cup rubber" so you can become one wth "cup rubber" which translated, means no, Topre key presses do not get heavier at the bottom of the stroke.

Besides, if you are looking for an Otaku keyboard, the Realforce 87U with black dye sublimated key labels on black keys is practically Otaku anyway.

[Brodie337]

2.1oz is about 60 grams, not much lighter than what I've got. I think I'm going to go for the Browns, Because I think I can get used to the lighter weight, and everyone around me is happy. Win - Win.

By the way, Otaku is neither here nor there, if you don't look, it doesn't matter. It'd be nice, but not overly important.

[Brodie337]

I've reached the conclusion that I'll build myself a bigger keyboard tray, and put up with a bigger keyboard, and not settle for second best switch wise.

I've emailed Deck about the cost of shipping a "Legend" 105 key board here. The backlighting is more for the girlfriend, who likes the idea of a backlit board, so I'm willing to fork out the extra.

[trievalot]

the legend 105 looks cool, but the LEDs cheapen the whole expereince. Kinda like fluffy dice in a bentley.

(Just my opinion by the way!)

[Brodie337]

Yeah, I know... I'm thinking of getting a set of blank keycaps as well, so I have the option of LEDs, or just leaving them off.

[trievalot]

can you leave the LEDs on with blank caps on? that would be a cool effect.....more like undercar neons on the bentley.......

[Brodie337]

You can see some light leakage around the sides of the keys, so I imagine you could.

[ch_123]

The clear switches in the Deck aren't meant to be that great.... I'd go Topre. Light, quiet, and they bottom out really nicely.

As for the bigger keytray, if you move the keyboard over to the left to compensate for the mouse being too far over to the right, it just makes the keyboard uncomfortable to type on.

[Brodie337]

Gah! Just when I thought I had it sorted!

Is there anyone on this forum that owns a cherry clear 'board that I could talk to?

[ch_123]

Ripster is the person to ask. He says they're like Black Alps, which is really not a good thing. Meltie got a clear Deck and said that it was mediocre.

[Brodie337]

OK.... The search continues... The main thing that I'm concerned with is the lightish weight of the Topres and Browns, and the click of the blues. Has anyone used an Siig Minitouch? Does it come in black?

EDIT: Nevermind, they're clicky... How loud are they?

[ch_123]

The Topres aren't too light. I usually use Buckling Springs (60g+) and I had no problems with adjusting too them. The pressure is concentrated near the top of the switch and the tactile feedback is sufficiently well pronounced.

[Brodie337]

OK. What is geekhack's suggestion? The all 55 gram board or the ergonomically weighted board?

[ch_123]

If you look around, you'll see that a good few of the people who got 55g boards didn't like them. The lighter weight supposedly suits the Topres beter.

[Brodie337]

OK. With that in mind, the Brown Cherries arent much lighter. Why choose Topres over them? What does the extra $100 buy you?

Just asking is all...

[ch_123]

I haven't used the Browns myself, but from what I've seen around here, most who have tried both prefer the Topres. Usual reasons include more quiet operation and very smooth action.

The price of Topres are pretty controversial. Even the most ardent fans will tell you that they're not necessarily twice as better as the browns despite being nearly twice the price. You do get a very good keyboard.

[Brodie337]

While money isn't an object, value for money is. I think I'll go a brown Filco... I think.

[microsoft windows]

I'm sorry if I rain on your parade, but Brown Cherry keyboards really aren't too tactile. They really don't feel much different than a mushy dome keyboard. It's hard to avoid bottoming out on them and when you do, it can make a clacking noise, depending on the key cap structure. If you're looking for light feel and a Topre is too expensive, then you'd be best off with one of these. They're old and ugly, but have some of the best rubber dome switches out there. They'll never wear out and can work just like new for over 15 years of hard use.

[ch_123]

[Brodie337]

We seem to have gone off on something of a tangent. What I'm after is a fairly heavy(ish) board, with a tactile feel, and quiet would be nice. Also, a compact size would be nice.

Thanks though folks, for all the suggestions. I'm also considering an SIIG MiniTouch

EDIT: ^^^ I don't mind, I'm taking any suggestions I can get at the moment, and he has a good point about the browns...

[ch_123]

Mhmm... Buckling Springs with grease could be an option. Very difficult to get it right though.