Filco Blue or Brown?

[Brodie337]

I think I'll just force people to put up with the clicks. The Cherry Clears seem like the closest thing to what I want on paper. White ALPS or Cherry Blues seem like the last remaining options.

[ak_nala]

I have Cherry Clears and Browns on the exact same model of Board.

Browns are gentler (and really not that hard to not bottom out), but have very little tactile feel. It's there, in that they don't really feel like linear boards (or rubber domes either), but it's a subtle thing you don't really notice that much when typing at speed. Nonetheless, I think your fingers and brain sense it regardless (even at speed) and it helps them subliminally feel the actuation point.

Clears have a stronger tactile feel, but not as much as Alps Blacks (which themselves are actually pretty subtle). They are noticeably stiffer than Browns (55 g vs. 45 g), but not as bad (or with the same force curve) as Alps Blacks (60-65 g). They are definitely more work than the Browns, but also easier to get the knack of not bottoming out. If anything, subjectively, they remind me more of Alps Cream switches as used in Alps Glidepoint and Apple AEK II boards.

White Alps definitely have more tactile feel than any of the above, but they can create quite a racket as well, plus that pesky top-loaded force curve.

[cheater1034]

I'm sorry if I rain on your parade, but Brown Cherry keyboards really aren't too tactile. They really don't feel much different than a mushy dome keyboard. It's hard to avoid bottoming out on them and when you do, it can make a clacking noise, depending on the key cap structure.

Are you serious? come on :\ The browns (on the filco atleast, maybe you had some other pcb mount or sth/nth) are tactile. I have a blue cherry scorpius right here that is also plate mounted - and the only thing that is different about the key press besides a minimal force difference before the bump is the sound of bottoming out/clacking due to the materials made.

Clacking depends on the key cap, the filco doesn't "clack" and has a very nice bottoming out sound. It's just as easy, or easier, to avoid bottoming out on them as the blue - because they offer equal or more resistance aftering activating (feels like more to me), unless some people are audible typers.

I think plenty of people prefer non-clicky keyboards (I didn't think i'd like non-clicky but the feel of the browns surprised me - I get annoyed when typing on the scorpius now ) - Saying non-tactile is very inaccurate - bump is just about as pronounced as the blues. I find it extremely hard to bottom out when typing - I usually can't even tell if I bottomed out (normally I don't) - because of the force after activation. It's hard to bottom out when typing normally - the keys just have more resistance after they fall from the bump and it's enough to make you not push further (you don't increase force after you activate)

Maybe there's a difference between some of the cheaper brown cherry boards versus the filco that makes people feel this way :\ - or everyone extremely prefers clicky keyboards - Someone needs to get some force curves drawn for brown/blue to see how they look, 45g vs 50g doesn't say much anyway because they have diff. forces throughout (I still suspect the browns have more resistance than the blues after the click)

[Brodie337]

Oh dear... did I start something?

Now I'm thinking Browns might be for me again, and Clears wouldn't be that bad...

[ak_nala]

BTW - both my Cherry boards are PCB mounted, so can't say what the plate mounted Cherry switches are like.

Also, the problem with Alps is that after the Tactile or Click point it's a bit like a rug is pulled out from under. It IS possible to not bottom out with them, but they certainly don't make it easy.

Cherry switches, on the other hand, have a pretty consistent force increase right through the Tactile or Click point. This means they are more subtle than Alps, but it also makes it easier to not bottom out. They tend to be smoother than all but clean well-worn Alps as well.

[ch_123]

With the Blue Alps, because the initial resistance is quite low, you get a very buckling spring like effect from typing on them. Shame they're so hard to find.

[Mental Hobbit]

I have a new Filco with browns, a 20 years old G80 in new condition with blues, and a very well worn 5182 (ISO Version of the 5181) with Montereys side by side here, so I'm qualified to participate in this brawl.

The G80 is a little louder than the Chicony. The click is a bit sharper, the keys are a bit lighter. Overall  Cherry blues and Montereys sound and feel quite similar though. Both give totally unmistakable tactile feedback.

Compared to the G80, the Filco with browns has about 5% of the tactile feedback. It's strong enough to clearly feel it when slowly pressing a key. It's too weak to provide any guidance when touch typing though. The Filco is completely silent unless I bottom out. The browns feel good and precise, not mushy at all. They have nothing in common with blues or Montereys though.

[Brodie337]

Thanks alot for that... Food for thought.

[didjamatic]

If we remove all forum members opinions and look at the facts:
1 - You own a tactile, clicky board with medium switch noise
2 - Your S.O. doesn't appreciate you medium noise keyboard
3 - Money is not really that much of a concern

Now for some Opinion based on those facts.  You have 3 great choices (not in order).
1 - Topre
2 - Cherry Brown
3 - Tactile non-clicky ALPS

Choosing Cherry Blues in your situation would be the equivalent of putting out a fire with gasoline and could result in a war between your S.O. and mechanical keyboards and no one wants that.

[ch_123]

I wouldnt call tactile Alps quiet... Nor are they very pleasant to type on.

[Brodie337]

If we remove all forum members opinions and look at the facts:
1 - You own a tactile, clicky board with medium switch noise
2 - You're S.O. doesn't appreciate you medium noise keyboard
3 - Money is not really that much of a concern

Now for some Opinion based on those facts.  You have 3 great choices (not in order).
1 - Topre
2 - Cherry Brown
3 - Tactile non-clicky ALPS

Choosing Cherry Blues in your situation would be the equivalent of putting out a fire with gasoline and could result in a war between your S.O. and mechanical keyboards and no one wants that.

That post made my day. It looks like Topres, probably a RealForce 89U. I don't think the browns will be Tactile enough to be satisfying enough to type on.

As for the noise, I'll be moving the board into a study, so it's a case of her not being a fan, not so much an issue as a mild annoyance.

[didjamatic]

Not quiet, but neither are Cherry Browns depending on how they are used.  The Apple Extended M0115 that I have hear with Orange undampened ALPS is much quieter than any of my SMK switch keyboards.  Also a Dell AT101W with Black ALPS is quieter than the SMK, but not by much.  Again, depending on how you type on it.

[patrickgeekhack]

Compared to the G80, the Filco with browns has about 5% of the tactile feedback. It's strong enough to clearly feel it when slowly pressing a key. It's too weak to provide any guidance when touch typing though. The Filco is completely silent unless I bottom out. The browns feel good and precise, not mushy at all. They have nothing in common with blues or Montereys though.

This is what I'm been trying to say but could not find the right words. The blue Cherries and completely different from the brown Cherries. They are not like brown Cherries =  blue Cherries - click. Even if there is 5g difference in actuation force, it's still a difference. Two keyboards with the same switch but from different manufacturers don't feel the same. A Ferrari and another car with a Ferrari engine are two completely different cars. Perception is affected by a lot of things. The sound can affect how we perceive the tactile bump. The best way for the OP to find out would be to buy both the blue and the brown Cherries keyboard. Why? How keyboard X feels to me does not necessarily equate to how it will feel to someone else. I happen to like the blue Cherries better, and happen to also notice a big difference between the blue Cherries and the brown Cherries. But that's just me.

[patrickgeekhack]

Come on people , don't make this man buy a keyboard based on false pretenses, the tactile bump is easily noticed (if you can't notice it on the browns, you won't notice it on the blues either)

We are not making the OP buy a keyboard based on false pretenses. We are just giving opinions. This is all we can do here, unfortunately. All we can do is show the door. Ultimately, the OP will have to walk through the door himself.

You may notice the tactile bump easily. I do too. But, this is not a rule for everyone. Some peole just don't notice the difference between a Topre and a rubber dome. That does not mean they are insensitive, but just that we perceive things differently.

[Brodie337]

Again, thanks. It's been a pretty illuminating discussion.

Based on what I'm reading, I've narrowed it down to Blues or Topres. it comes down to whether its worth the extra $100 for the feel of the Topres...

EDIT: If the tactile bump of a brown may or may not be noticeable, I don't want to run the risk of having a very expensive board I don't enjoy typing on.

[ch_123]

This is very much one of those YMMV things. Some will tell you that the Topres aren't tactile enough. Some will tell you that the Cherry Blues are plasticky and frictiony. It should be noted that most of the former end up becoming very fond of the Topres after a few days of use.

[bigpook]

I would take the topre over the cherry blue. Its quiet, incredibly smooth, and the keyboard (HHKB or Realforce) has great build quality.
disclaimer: I don't have a Realforce, but from what I read they are excellent. My HHKB is pretty awesome though.

[Brodie337]

As I said earlier, Money isn't an issue, but value is.

The Happy Hacking and RealForce boards are twice the price of the Filco. I'm wondering if they can be twice the keyboard.

[ch_123]

As I said earlier, Money isn't an issue, but value is.

The Happy Hacking and RealForce boards are twice the price of the Filco. I'm wondering if they can be twice the keyboard.

Is a Filco 10x the keyboard that a regular rubber dome keyboard is?

Discuss.

[patrickgeekhack]

Again, thanks. It's been a pretty illuminating discussion.

Based on what I'm reading, I've narrowed it down to Blues or Topres. it comes down to whether its worth the extra $100 for the feel of the Topres...

EDIT: If the tactile bump of a brown may or may not be noticeable, I don't want to run the risk of having a very expensive board I don't enjoy typing on.

The Topre is a unique breed. Some people have been disappointed completely. Some have been disappointed at first, then love it after some time. Unfortunately, once again, you need to try it to know.

Changing Topic, when I went back home to visit my relatives I asked my brother if he wanted a keyboard and he said no. Now he is in Melbourne and bought a cheap rubber dome. I need to do some research to see where he can get a good Cherry keyboard before he flies back home on Feb. 23rd.

[Brodie337]

Yeah... Thinking of an SIIG MiniTouch or the like. I don't sleep either, insomnia sucks.... it's 3am and I don't feel tired.

EDIT: In response to Ripster

EDIT II: Of course a Filco is 10x the board!

[ch_123]

If a Filco is 10x the keyboard a rubber dome keyboard is, then there's a case to be made for the Topre being 2x the keyboard a Filco is.

Ah, new members. Always thinking that there's a linear correlation between price and quality.

[Brodie337]

I've grown up on a mix of both, although our "Enter" keys are small usually, but it's a non issue for me.

EDIT: I see your point, but a realforce is a $360AU gamble.

I'm more confident that I'll like the sharper feel of ALPS or blues.

[elbowglue]

Whatsup brodie,
So, I have the KB 5181, Filco Blue Cherry, Filco brown cherry, Compaq Mx 11800, G86 SPOS board, Compaq MX 8100, Dell 101ATW.  I these keyboards particularly in a work environment so I need them to be less loud.  My fav board is the MX 11800 (see my post in the reviews section) however if I were in a closed office with no concern about sound, I would say it is a close case between the Filco blue cherry and Chicony 5181.

The brown cherries are not *that* tactile, and I bottom out all the time with them.  With this in mind if you go with brown cherries, consider seriously getting a PCB mounted board with brown cherries, as bottoming out is great fun on these (much less so with the filco brown cherry board).  Even though the cherry browns are not that tactile, they are still the bomb.

I have not experienced topres, and expect they would be nice.  You gotta decide on what volume you can tolerate, and if you are looking for a quieter board you will probably want to go Topres or Brown cherries.  If you don't care about nose and enjoy the crisp snap of the KB 5181, you should be heading in the buckling springs direction or blue cherries.  But arguably the KB 5181 switch is better than either.  I don't know, if I had a KB 5181 with straight enter key and large backspace I would consider it the best board ever (if sound is no object)

[ch_123]

Which of the seemingly infinite amount of SMK switches does your Chicony use?

[elbowglue]

Which of the seemingly infinite amount of SMK switches does your Chicony use?

Appears to be SMK blue switches.

[ch_123]

I wonder how these Blue SMKs stack up against the Blue Alps... Is there anyone who has used both?

[maxlugar]

But arguably the KB 5181 switch is better than either.  I don't know, if I had a KB 5181 with straight enter key and large backspace I would consider it the best board ever (if sound is no object)

Call me crazy, but I like those blue SMK Monterey key switches so much, I have a dozen NIB KB-5181s stacked up in the closet.  Yes, excess, bloody, excess.

I find the large enter key and small backspace key comfortingly familiar     (see my sig).   THe 5181 would be perfect if the Control and Caps Lock keys were also in their proper locations.  

[microsoft windows]

I don't really like those small Back Scace keys, but the large Enter keys I'm fine with.

[maxlugar]

I wonder how these Blue SMKs stack up against the Blue Alps... Is there anyone who has used both?

I've never used a keyboard with genuine blue ALPS key switches.  It would be reasonable to assume that the SMK Monterey switches were an attempt to copy blue ALPS.  They feel very different from complicated white ALPS switches.

I'll have to check Sandy's site to see what keyboards used genuine blue ALPS.

[ch_123]

Call me crazy, but I like those blue SMK Monterey key switches so much, I have a dozen NIB KB-5181s stacked up in the closet.  Yes, excess, bloody, excess.

I find the large enter key and small backspace key comfortingly familiar     (see my sig).   THe 5181 would be perfect if the Control and Caps Lock keys were also in their proper locations.  

You should give a Blue Alps a shot. I was expecting them and the Whites to be the same. However, Ripster and I switch swapped, and the Whites are quite different... and nowhere near as nice.

[Brodie337]

I tend to find Backspace by tapping the very top right of my keyboard, so even if I have a large one I only use the extreme right edge of it anyway. More annoying is the displaced "\" key, but it doesn't take too long to get used to that.

EDIT: Every time I make a post, there's two or three who have posted before me by the time I'm finished!

[ch_123]

Yeah, that's how I do it too. My Model F never gives me trouble. Although sometimes I used to reach over too far and hit it's Esc key instead, which would cause some apps I run to exit...

[ak_nala]

I wouldnt call tactile Alps quiet... Nor are they very pleasant to type on.

Actually, I find AEK II style Cream Alps (dampened tactile) are both quiet and rather pleasant to type one. Blacks are a whole other story. YMMV, of course.

[itlnstln]

Ask a hundred GeekHackers and you get a hundred different suggestions.  That said, Cherry browns all the way.

[patrickgeekhack]

Ask a hundred GeekHackers and you get a hundred different suggestions.

True. Like MsKeyboard once said in another thread, it's personal opinion.

[imsto]

If I should get a kbd for the new job, I'd try cherry blue.
I do not like the feeling of typing on Topres or HHKB, just like "been disappointed completely" that's seems the same as those rubber dome(in fact it is realy rubber dome).

[imsto]

Ask a hundred GeekHackers and you get a hundred different suggestions.

this is the right answer...

most geekhackers like the kbd with normal layout.

[ch_123]

If I should get a kbd for the new job, I'd try cherry blue.
I do not like the feeling of typing on Topres or HHKB, just like "been disappointed completely" that's seems the same as those rubber dome(in fact it is realy rubber dome).

How long have you had it?

[imsto]

How long have you had it?

 

first time ,I used it for half an hour, gave up.
second, one hour gave up.
third, one hour, gave up.
then gave up forever...

[Mental Hobbit]

Heretic! ;P

[imsto]

I do more like Model M, but it's too noisy.

[mp29k]

Well, I have a blue Filco, and I have tried to like it for about a week.  I really like the Dell SK-8125, it is a stiff rubber dome, and it has a really good tactile feel.  I guess I expected to like the blue Filco infinitely better than this, but that has not been the case so far.  The Blue is loud, plasticky sounding, and I seem to make lots of mistakes on it unless I really press hard on the keys (bottom them out).  The bottom out on the Filco is harsh feeling, and on the rubber dome I am used to the bottom out is soft, and pleasant.

I know this means I would probably love the topre the best, and I will probably end up buying one soon enough, but I still want to try more cherry switches.

I would consider trading a practically new blue cherry Filco (I would say it has less than 2 hours of typing on it), for a similar condition Filco with browns if anyone is interested.  (The one I have is the non NKRO)

I also want to try a buckling spring, but I am afraid it will be too loud, and maybe a Keytronic (I know, rubber dome, but supposedly one of the better ones you can get).

Let me know if anyone is interested.  

Things I would trade for:
Great condition Industrial Model M with new feeling switches and a cable
Filco or Cherry (full size US Layout) with cherry browns.

[mp29k]

You'd have better luck posting in the classifieds section of the forum.

Thanks, and I am aware of the classifies section, I just don't know how serious I am about it yet.  Kind of shocked I paid this much for a board everyone seems to like, and I don't really like it so far... thinking maybe I just haven't had enough time on it yet.

[Brodie337]

After sitting and thinking long and hard, I think I'll go the brown.

The numpad on my Chicony has VERY worn switches, and the bump is ALOT softer than the main QWERTY section. I typed for a bit, thinking about the switches, and really nitpicking, and I'm beginning a softer switch might be the go. I can get used to a lighter or heavier switch, as long as the feel is right.

Any more thoughts would be appreciated.

P.S I get paid today (I think), so I'll probably order tomorrow night.

[elbowglue]

I'm posting my cherry brown 104 key filco for sale tonight in the classified, don't order it till ya see my post.. working overnight tonight.

[Brodie337]

Where are you located, mate?

I'm in Aus, which may or may not work out cheaper in terms of postage.

EDIT: I'm after a Tenkeyless board, if possible. Sorry about that.

[elbowglue]

Oops - I'm in US - sold it already to friend sorry:(

[jaybee]

After sitting and thinking long and hard, I think I'll go the brown.

Any more thoughts would be appreciated.

I just went through the same process in selecting a new board without the benefit of trying them (see this thread if interested) and settled on the Cherry browns.

You can see my mini-review near the end of the thread. As far as the switches and key touch are concerned, my first impression was that the tactile feedback was so subtle as to be useless. When I first took it out of the box, it didn't feel as if it had any feedback at all, and I really didn't care for it.

Two weeks later, I'm adjusting and like the keyboard more. There is a bump (not really a click) in the keystrokes, and once you start typing more lightly you get used to where it is and start feeling it. But especially (like me) if you haven't been using a mechanical board lately, the brown switches are going to feel very, very subtle.

[itlnstln]

The jump from almost anything to Cherry browns is pretty drastic, so you probably aren't going to get the full experience.  I went from ALPS to Cherry browns and I shared the same opinion at first about them being too light and practically linear.  I stuck with an MX 11800 for a couple of weeks, and I really came to enjoy the switches the more I got to use them.  For about a year now, I have been on some sort of Cherry brown-based keyboard.