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Author Topic: Cheapest way to get Topre / HHKB in Europe?  (Read 12296 times)

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Offline tealeg

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Cheapest way to get Topre / HHKB in Europe?
« on: Tue, 09 February 2010, 16:19:26 »
Hi,

I have been searching for a new keyboard for work.   As I work in an open plan I need something quiet.   Initially I thought that Cherry MX black might be an answer but everything I read suggests they feel like typing on a pool of wet cement sitting in a latex hammock.   After hours of reading these excellent forums I am reasonably convinced the Topre switches are what I want (though I am willing to be convinced on Cherry MX Brown).

I am in Germany, but of UK origin so much happier in general with either a UK or US layout than a German one - particularly as the German layout sucks for programming.   I have a HHKB Lite and Unicomp customiser with the Linux layout (Ctrl key where caps lock would "normally" be) and I'd love that layout so the HHKB Pro 2 seems like the obvious choice with perhaps a Topre 87U as a second choice and either a Filco or Cherry board with MX browns coming in somewhere behind.

The big problem for me now is the cost involved - getting a HHKB or Topre shipped from either Japan or the US to here carries a hefty price tag and customs duties to boot.   Is anyone aware of any shop in the EU where these are available?
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Offline itlnstln

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Cheapest way to get Topre / HHKB in Europe?
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 09 February 2010, 16:25:58 »
Just for a point of reference, if you buy a keyboard from the US, expect shipping charges between $30 and $40 USD (I have sent several 'boards to the UK and Germany).  I'll be a broker for you if you want to go that route.  I'll even do some quick testing before I ship it out to you to avoid any extra shipping costs.  Otherwise, you may want to check with Bruce from the Keyboard Company (see the Vendor forum).  He is located in the UK and might be able to help.
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Offline ch_123

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Cheapest way to get Topre / HHKB in Europe?
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 09 February 2010, 16:29:09 »
I should point out that the Realforce 87U lets you swap Ctrl and Caps Lock on the hardware level.

I think Geekstuff4u declares your stuff as a gift, and has low-ish shipping prices, but the price for their keyboards is a good deal more expensive, which may mitigate the advantages.
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Offline tealeg

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Cheapest way to get Topre / HHKB in Europe?
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 09 February 2010, 16:32:58 »
Hey thanks itlnstln, that's a nice offer.  Interesting info on the shipping charges too.  

What really bugs me is I nearly bought a HHKB Pro II back when you could get them in the UK, but I opted to get the Unicomp shipped in from the USA.   The unicomp is PS/2 which means it only works with an adapter and it's too noisy to use when anyone else is around.

I guess the secondary question is the one that is always getting asked around here - is the Topre switch really worth all this extra effort and cost or should I just suck it up an buy a Filco with MX Browns from the KeyboardCo?  If the Cherry G80-3000 was available in a UK layout with Browns I'd probably just take the plunge as it's a lot cheaper (and supposedly very quiet).
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Offline tealeg

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Cheapest way to get Topre / HHKB in Europe?
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 09 February 2010, 16:35:02 »
Quote from: ch_123;157394
I should point out that the Realforce 87U lets you swap Ctrl and Caps Lock on the hardware level.

I think Geekstuff4u declares your stuff as a gift, and has low-ish shipping prices, but the price for their keyboards is a good deal more expensive, which may mitigate the advantages.
Thanks ch_123.   GeekStuff4u is a shop I've been considering.  

I just can't quite believe that the HHKB Pro isn't available anywhere in the EU anymore - used to be relatively easy to get them IIRC.
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Offline itlnstln

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Cheapest way to get Topre / HHKB in Europe?
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 09 February 2010, 16:35:57 »
There's some Swedish (IIRC) store that carries them, too, but I don't remember what layout they carry.
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Offline ch_123

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Cheapest way to get Topre / HHKB in Europe?
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 09 February 2010, 16:40:13 »
Quote from: tealeg;157397
I guess the secondary question is the one that is always getting asked around here - is the Topre switch really worth all this extra effort and cost or should I just suck it up an buy a Filco with MX Browns from the KeyboardCo?  If the Cherry G80-3000 was available in a UK layout with Browns I'd probably just take the plunge as it's a lot cheaper (and supposedly very quiet).


There's no straight answer to this one.

It seems that most people rate them higher than the Brown Cherry. I haven't used a Brown Cherry, but the Topre is definitely one of the most pleasant to type on switches going, and probably the best quiet switch there is. General consensus is that it's not necessarily twice as good as the Cherry Brown, but hey, people buy €1,000 Intel 'extreme edition' chips that are only about 20% faster than something that costs a quarter of the price... At least keyboards don't go out of date.

Quote
There's some Swedish (IIRC) store that carries them, too, but I don't remember what layout they carry.

It's a Finnish store that stocks Finnish-layout Realforce 105s. At €190, not much cheaper than ordering one from the US. Don't you just love the EU?
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Offline tealeg

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Cheapest way to get Topre / HHKB in Europe?
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 09 February 2010, 16:42:38 »
Quote from: itlnstln;157402
There's some Swedish (IIRC) store that carries them, too, but I don't remember what layout they carry.
Now that would be a strong contender.  Correct me if I am wrong, but HHKB only come in Blank, US or Japanese layouts?  

If anyone has the URL for such a shop I would be a happy man.
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Offline tealeg

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Cheapest way to get Topre / HHKB in Europe?
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 09 February 2010, 16:45:21 »
Quote from: ch_123;157404
There's no straight answer to this one.

It seems that most people rate them higher than the Brown Cherry. I haven't used a Brown Cherry, but the Topre is definitely one of the most pleasant to type on switches going, and probably the best quiet switch there is. General consensus is that it's not necessarily twice as good as the Cherry Brown, but hey, people buy €1,000 Intel 'extreme edition' chips that are only about 20% faster than something that costs a quarter of the price... At least keyboards don't go out of date.



It's a Finnish store that stocks Finnish-layout Realforce 105s. At €190, not much cheaper than ordering one from the US. Don't you just love the EU?
Well, that is as I feared - no really obvious answer.  I don't feel I *need* a click as such, just something smooth, solid(ish) and with more feedback than a cheap old membrane job.
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Offline itlnstln

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Cheapest way to get Topre / HHKB in Europe?
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 09 February 2010, 16:46:37 »
I don't know about layouts, but you can get them lettered.  Check it: white and black.
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Offline ch_123

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Cheapest way to get Topre / HHKB in Europe?
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 09 February 2010, 16:46:37 »
Topre will do you well then.
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Offline elbowglue

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Cheapest way to get Topre / HHKB in Europe?
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 09 February 2010, 17:00:30 »
Itlnstln is wanting to try out the board for himself to see if he wants to buy a topre :)  If you are in california SF Bay area at some point, let me know you can swing buy and try mine.
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My keyboards: Filco Cherry Blue Tenkeyless(daily home), Compaq MX11800 (modded to blacks), Compaq "MX 84u",  Wellington\'s Dampened Endurapro, Pinkalicious Filco Blue Cherry, Chicony KB-5191, Chicony KB-5181, Desko MOS 5023 UP "elbowglue" spos (modded to blues), Siig Minitouch (monterey blue), SMK-88 (blue cherries), Ricercar SPOS
Smallest to biggest keyboards in inches (Length X Height) - Length is most important for a midline mouse position
KBC Poker: 11.6 x 3.9 - HHKB: 11.6 x 4.3 - Siig Minitouch (Geekhack Space Saver): 11.6 x 6 - Deck/Tg3 82: 12 x 6 - Noppoo Choc Mini 12.4 x 5.3 - Compaq "MX 84u": 13.1 x 7.5 - Filco Tenkeyless: 14 x 5.3 - Cherry "ricercar spos" G86-62410EUAGSA: 14 x 7.75 - Topre Realforce 86u: 14.4 x 6.65 - Desko "elbowglue spos" MOS 5023 UP: 14.5 x 8.4 - IBM Model M Spacesaver: 15.3 x 7 - G80-1800: 15.9 x 7.1 - Adesso MKB-125B: 16 x 7.3 - Compaq Mx11800, Cherry G80-11900: 16.25 x 7.5 - Filco Standard: 17.3 x 5.4 - Unicomp Endurapro: 17.9 x 7.1 - Adesso MKB-135B: 18.3 x 6.0 - Cherry G80-3000: 18.5 x 7.6 - IBM Model M, Unicomp Customizer: 19.3 x 8.27

Offline meltie

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Cheapest way to get Topre / HHKB in Europe?
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 09 February 2010, 17:03:54 »
I'm from Germany, too, and I just imported a HHKB Pro 2 and a Topre Realforce 87U (and some Filco boards) from Elitekeyboards. Considering the lack of any warranty, shipping and VAT, this is an expensive thing to do, but I don't regret it. Elitekeyboards is very professional and I highly recommend this store.

I think the Topre switches will suit you very well. Cherry browns are great, too, but to me the Topre sounds quieter and feels lighter. Very nice board to type on for hours (I do programming, too, and writing long texts all day).

A while ago, getdigital.de sold the HHKB Pro 2, but now the only have the Das Keyboard. If there was any shop in Europe with fair prices, I'd buy another Topre.
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Offline lal

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Cheapest way to get Topre / HHKB in Europe?
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 09 February 2010, 18:01:09 »
Quote from: tealeg;157409
Well, that is as I feared - no really obvious answer.  I don't feel I *need* a click as such, just something smooth, solid(ish) and with more feedback than a cheap old membrane job.


Keep in mind though that Topre may be the smoothest switch on earth but it has basically the tactile feedback of any other rubber dome, i.e. there is no sudden drop in resistance as with mechanical switches like blue MX, Alps or BS.
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BS: Customizer, Model Ms; Alps: CSK-2101, FK-2002, AT-101 (SGI & Dell), MCK-860, FKBN87Z/EB; Cherry: Poker X, FKBN87MC/EB, WY60, G80-3000, G84-4100, TDV 5010

Offline ch_123

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Cheapest way to get Topre / HHKB in Europe?
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 09 February 2010, 18:07:19 »
If you ever typed on one, you'd know that the pressure builds up at the top and then gives way suddenly after that. In a sense, it has the opposite force-displacement graph to a regular rubber dome.
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Offline itlnstln

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Cheapest way to get Topre / HHKB in Europe?
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 09 February 2010, 19:43:11 »
Quote from: elbowglue;157414
Itlnstln is wanting to try out the board for himself to see if he wants to buy a topre :) If you are in california SF Bay area at some point, let me know you can swing buy and try mine.

Shhh!
 
Seriously, though, I have sent stuff over to a few members here to make sure items are... uhh... correctly assessed for VAT. If I send an item from a store, I test it first, so the shipping stays local if there's a problem, then send the item. The Topre thing would just be bonus for me. I appreciate the trial offer, though. Will do if I am ever in the area. I might also drop in unannounced at ripster's, too, at about 3 a.m. Don't worry, I'll bring beer.
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Offline tealeg

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That Finnish shop
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 10 February 2010, 02:08:51 »
In case anyone is interested I located the Finnish shop that was mentioned earlier in this thread:

http://www.verkkokauppa.com

Apparently they are Finnland's number 2 electrical store.   Exactly as indicated, they sell the Realforce 105 UFB with a Finnish layout for €189 including VAT.   As it's a 105 you could probably use it for most European layouts if you ignore (or replace) the keycaps.    Only trouble now is that they don't seem set up for shipping outside Finnland.   I will e-mail in a bit and see what they say.
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Offline test157

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Cheapest way to get Topre / HHKB in Europe?
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 10 February 2010, 02:41:10 »
verkkokauppa.com

Ships outside with no problem,  you have just to contact them, so they could calculate total invoice for you, with shipping included.

it's the model they have


and the same in white:


They also have additional color keysets:
W, A, S, D x1 in BLUE - 4.90EUR

or
    * W, A, S, D x1
    * Esc x1
    * Enter x1
    * Shift x2
    * Ctrl x2
    * Alt x2

in YELLOW, GREEN or RED for 29.90EUR per set.
« Last Edit: Wed, 10 February 2010, 02:43:13 by test157 »
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Offline tealeg

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Cheapest way to get Topre / HHKB in Europe?
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 10 February 2010, 02:44:30 »
So have the answer from the Finnish shop, yes they will ship and it won't be more than €25.   That makes this the cheapest route by €21.

As I estimate it (someone please correct me if I am wrong) the final price (as of today) of the various options,at my door in Munich is:

HHKB Pro II
========
EliteKeyboards - €250.91
GeekStuff4U - €246.52

Topre 103
========
EliteKeyboards - €235.04
GeekStuff4U - €276.49

Topre 105
========
VerkkoKauppa - €214.00

This is assuming GeekStuff4u is immune from unforeseen handling charges (using their own estimation tool), but that 19% VAT will be added onto the EliteKeyboards prices when they hit Germany.   Verkko Kauppa are in the EU so should also be immune from extra charges.
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Offline test157

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Cheapest way to get Topre / HHKB in Europe?
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 10 February 2010, 03:16:29 »
VAT is not the only tax, your country also must have import TAX, it's depends on the KIND of the goods you are importing, for you I think it will mean about additional 2-5% to the prices above. of course, with verkokauppa you don't have to pay any taxes, and if you'll order for your company with active VAT number, then you don't have to pay Finnish VAT as well, in this way you'll get this keyboard from verkkokauppa about 20% less price, or what is current Finnish VAT.
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Offline Mental Hobbit

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Cheapest way to get Topre / HHKB in Europe?
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 10 February 2010, 03:51:11 »
Quote from: tealeg;157502
This is assuming GeekStuff4u is immune from unforeseen handling charges


I wouldn't count on that. German customs officers may not be the brightest bunch, but they certainly have heard of that gift trick. Most likely the packet will be seized and you'll have to pick it up in person at the customs office - after paying VAT and fees of course. The Munich customs office is located in some godforsaken industrial area in Garching btw.
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Typing on blues.

Offline tealeg

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Decisions
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 10 February 2010, 11:00:03 »
Quote from: webwit;157516
I wouldn't try it on a package from a shop with a new product in it. And I payed taxes on my HHKB from geekstuff4u. But a very expensive Industrial Mini I got recently was declared as gift and came through untouched. Also I got a second, used DataHand as a backup which I declared as having a value of $20, and it also came without import costs.


I am relitively happy typing on a 105 keyboard so I suspect I will go with the heklful Finnish folk.  Might be mildly entertaining to have Finnish keycaps as well :cheer2:

I'm not comfortable with tax evasion in prinicple, but I see no need to pay fess when I can get this in the EU.
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Offline Superfluous Parentheses

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Cheapest way to get Topre / HHKB in Europe?
« Reply #22 on: Wed, 10 February 2010, 20:03:58 »
Quote from: tealeg;157502
So have the answer from the Finnish shop, yes they will ship and it won't be more than €25.   That makes this the cheapest route by €21.

As I estimate it (someone please correct me if I am wrong) the final price (as of today) of the various options,at my door in Munich is:

HHKB Pro II
========
EliteKeyboards - €250.91
GeekStuff4U - €246.52
I noticed the other day that the japanese version of the HHKBpro 2 is 20 euros cheaper @GeekStuff4U for some reason than the simpler "US" layout.

It may or may not be worth it for the extra keys, depending on how many modifier keys  you like.
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Current collection: HHKB Pro 2 black on black, HHKB Pro 2 white/grey blank, [strike]Dell AT101W[/strike] (sold to SirClickAlot), 1992 Model M, Key Tronic Ergoforce KT 2001, BTC 5100 C. Dead boards: MS Natural Elite, MS Natural 4000.

Offline tealeg

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Cheapest way to get Topre / HHKB in Europe?
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 11 February 2010, 00:51:04 »
Quote from: ripster;157692
I'd make a decision soon.  The PIGS (Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain) would rather go on a strike than a diet.

Show Image


PIGS? LMAO never heard that one before.  Generally in England we tend to think that it's the French that are always on strike.

I suspect the Euro to Yenn exchange rate is the most important, but anyhow I think I have decided not to ship in from outside the EU.  That leaves me with the choice of getting the Topre from Finland or getting something with Cherry browns.   Like many others I am finding hard to part with more than €200 for rubber domes when I can get a g80-3000 for €60 :/
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