What are they trying to say about us?

[MsKeyboard]

"Though die-hard typists will expound endlessly on the subject of whether this keyboard is better than that keyboard"

Seems we are getting more attention than we realize, way to go.  Next they'll start stealing Ripster's lego dioramas.

[itlnstln]

Oh, they may need to send an occasional e-mail or IM, but it's how the keys operate under fire, and what other sorts of features it has for keeping them out of harm's way in the first place, that really matters most.

Oh, so a rubber dome keyboard fits the bill?
 
Funny, we get gamers, pros at that, wanting recommendations on keyboards all the time.  The crazy thing is, they actually type stuff.

[elbowglue]

Posted by Douchney Mcdouchbag lol.  Funny ****.  Legions of games would rather blindly throw their money at micro$oft after being told they will be elitez by buying their rubber dome ****.

[elbowglue]

Posted by Douchney Mcdouchbag lol.  Funny ****.  Legions of games would rather blindly throw their money at micro$oft after being told they will be elitez by buying their rubber dome ****.

How do keyboards hold up under fire?  Well we expound about that too.
From "Destroying a Boscom for Science"
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6671&do=comments&page=3


thanks ripster.

[quadibloc]

Next they'll start stealing Ripster's lego dioramas.

I don't know about ExtremeTech, but The Register has been having fun with Lego for quite some time now. Or possibly Playmobil.

Ah, yes, it was Playmobil, at least in this example:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05/02/battle_of_lesbos/

[Phaedrus2129]

I wonder how much money MS has sunk into researching getting around the ghosting problems that prevent membrane boards from having NKRO...

Compared to how much money they would have cost/made if they'd just gone with old school rubber domes or mechanical switches and touted the benefits of those.

[Rajagra]

Well, technically it looks like they solved the BLOCKING (key is blocked from appearing) problem only to  induce GHOSTING (mysterious keys that appear out of nowhere).

Well, who'd have thought so?
Oh... I did.
I dread to think how (un)reliable they are after some heavy use when they go out of calibration and the resistance of each key varies with wear.

At least they do seem to have done something interesting with the USB driver to allow more than 6 keys, let's hope that sets a trend.

[Phaedrus2129]

But they can't go back to PS/2 because PS/2 is ooooooolllddddd and people don't want old stuff waaaaaah.

Air is old.

[itlnstln]

The trend has already been set. Every time Metadot, Razer, or Microsoft R&D tries to go over the 6-key limit they F*** it UP!

Win.

[itlnstln]

Old, yes; obsolete, no. It still frees up a USB port. It still has more capability than USB with the current HID drivers (if you have six fingers). If the drivers ever get fixed, then PS2 is pretty much obsolete (it still frees up a USB port, though.)

[itlnstln]

You buy modern desktops with boat-loads of USB ports, but some of us use laptops that don't (while mine has a PS2 port, many do not, however).
 

Best part - no more Parallel port to USB adapter crap.

You didn't have the network card (JetDirect, IIRC) for your LaserJet4L?  For shame.  Mine (just a 4, no "L") is hooked up straight to the router.

[Nonmouse]

I have roughly a butt-tonne (slightly more than a butt-ton) of USB ports on my "desktop" (tower, ecktually), but I still prefer PS/2, for a few different reasons.  

NKRO is one, of course.  The fact that my rock-solid Cherry MX-8100 and Alps keyboards are PS/2 is another.  (Because I take prednisone, I occasionally lose my temper and pound on my MX-8100 as hard as I can- the keys fly off, but when I pop them back on, it still works just fine.  Try that with a M$ keyboard.)

The main reason I like the PS/2, though is that I've never had a port conflict or had the computer just decide to "lose" the keyboard, whereas I've had that happen fairly frequently with USB keyboards (and other devices).

Seriously- what are the advantages of a USB keyboard over a PS/2?  (Assuming you have a PS/s port, of course...)

[itlnstln]

The only advantage I can think of is that it's easier to swap out keyboards using USB.  You don't have to reach around the back of the PC if you have a hub, and you can hotplug with USB where you can't with PS/2.  I don't swap out my keyboards often, so it's not much of an advantage for me.

[Mental Hobbit]

The primary advantage is you don't look like an old fart.

You need a fancy keyboard. Maybe a SideWinder X4. Or an old, trusty Logitech G19.

[itlnstln]

I think NEC was ahead of it's time with that one.

[kishy]

Internet Explorer!

Porn sites of questionable security in IE?

[ricercar]

That's a keeper! Happy friday to you too!

[quadibloc]

But they can't go back to PS/2 because PS/2 is ooooooolllddddd and people don't want old stuff waaaaaah.

Air is old.

The trouble is, though, that some companies are building "legacy-free" computers that don't have PS/2 ports. And the USB standard works on newer Macintosh and Sun computers, whereas their former ports were not PS/2 compatible.

And on top of that, the PS/2 port just provides enough power to run a keyboard. So you can't have backlit keys!

So I don't think the trend to USB keyboards can be stopped. It would be nice if someone came up with a keyboard that not only switched into an NKRO mode requiring a custom driver, but also had Windows, Linux, SPARC Solaris, and Macintosh OS X drivers for it, but that's dreaming in Technicolor. (Although, it is true that you can get an HHKB that connects to a SPARCstation, so maybe this isn't totally impossible...)

[Nonmouse]

The primary advantage is you don't look like an old fart.

But...  I am an old fart.

Oh- that's another advantage of my trusty MX-8100- you can beat whippersnappers soundly about the head and shoulders with it and it'll still work.  Plus it's got some mass behind it, for critical hits.  (Not as much as a Model M, of course.)

[Nonmouse]

Come to think of it maybe I only need 2-key rollover.

Show Image

What sliders does that have in it?

[Phaedrus2129]

The trouble is, though, that some companies are building "legacy-free" computers that don't have PS/2 ports. And the USB standard works on newer Macintosh and Sun computers, whereas their former ports were not PS/2 compatible.

And on top of that, the PS/2 port just provides enough power to run a keyboard. So you can't have backlit keys!

So I don't think the trend to USB keyboards can be stopped. It would be nice if someone came up with a keyboard that not only switched into an NKRO mode requiring a custom driver, but also had Windows, Linux, SPARC Solaris, and Macintosh OS X drivers for it, but that's dreaming in Technicolor. (Although, it is true that you can get an HHKB that connects to a SPARCstation, so maybe this isn't totally impossible...)

Last time I checked Asus was the only company taking PS/2 off its motherboards; and even then they're just merging the green and purple PS/2 ports into one, and then only on their top-end LGA1366 boards.

[kishy]

Last time I checked Asus was the only company taking PS/2 off its motherboards; and even then they're just merging the green and purple PS/2 ports into one, and then only on their top-end LGA1366 boards.

Intel does too.

The solder pads are there, but the ports aren't. Makes me wonder if perhaps the chipset still offers the ports...

Windows won't see the port as existing if no device is connected during boot, so there's no way to be completely sure without hooking something up to see (and presumably the other missing components along those traces).

[Manyak]

Last time I checked Asus was the only company taking PS/2 off its motherboards; and even then they're just merging the green and purple PS/2 ports into one, and then only on their top-end LGA1366 boards.

The general trend these days is that the low end boards still have the classic I/O panel (2x PS/2, 1x VGA, 1x Serial, 1x Parallel, and so on), while almost everything else has just 1 PS/2 port and whatever else the manufacturer feels like it.

And actually, Intel is the only one I've seen so far to completely remove the PS/2 port. Once I actually bought one of their boards without it, and - here's the funny part - once you installed the chipset drivers it disabled the USB ports completely. And when I called them up, they told me I had to go to the device manager to re-enable them! :rant:

Intel does too.

The solder pads are there, but the ports aren't. Makes me wonder if perhaps the chipset still offers the ports...

Windows won't see the port as existing if no device is connected during boot, so there's no way to be completely sure without hooking something up to see (and presumably the other missing components along those traces).

None of today's chipsets support PS/2. It's done through the LPC bus & controller. It's connected to the southbridge through a PCI bridge, and is basically a modified ISA bus (and even appears to the system as ISA). All the legacy ports are connected to it - PS/2, serial, parallel, floppy, and - believe it or not - the BIOS.

[ricercar]

Lubricated.   Non-clicky but tactile.

Dont you mean "Non-sticky, but erectile"?

on top of that, the PS/2 port just provides enough power to run a keyboard. So you can't have backlit keys!

This turns out not to be the case. I have a TG3 BLT backlit keyboard with PS/2. IIRC the PS/2 keyboard spec provides more current than one USB port.

[Manyak]

They really need to stop it with the cheap sound and network cards. Even ipods have better sound quality than onboard Realtek crap. And I've yet to see an onboard NIC on a desktop board get over 65MB/s (good dedicated ones get over 100MB/s, and offload all the processing so the CPU doesn't have to do any work).

That should free up the back panel a bit

This turns out not to be the case. I have a TG3 BLT backlit keyboard with PS/2. IIRC the PS/2 keyboard spec provides more current than one USB port.

USB=500mA @ 5V
PS/2=275mA @ 5V

But you can always get more by connecting the +5V and Gnd pins directly to your PSU, or by connecting them to more than one port.

[ricercar]

USB=500mA @ 5V
PS/2=275mA @ 5V

I have my fork and napkin, if you want to feed me more crow.

[quadibloc]

I have my fork and napkin, if you want to feed me more crow.

Anybody can make a mistake, and if there are backlit PS/2 keyboards, I was wrong too.

However, I also remember that some old IBM keyboards didn't work on some new computers, because they weren't even providing all the power that the PS/2 spec called for!

[microsoft windows]

I know the color coding of old Logitech, Gateway, and Compaq keyboard plugs from the mid to late 1990's.

[ch_123]

Well, I know what interface iMav (the developer of this wonderful community) likes better from his question to register at Geekhack.org.

 

HINT:  It's not Purple or Green

Frankly, I think that question is a high barrier for 99% of the lurkers at Geekhack.  My wife couldn't answer that one.

I don't remember having to answer any such questions when I joined. Then again, back then the forum was running on different software.

Nekochan, the SGI collectors forum, has quite specific questions that assume the person joining has familiarity with just about every machine that SGI made... I failed registration the first time over some relatively obscure older machine that I hadn't heard of.

Quite frankly, that is the way to do it.

[Manyak]

Master to Slave?  What kind of store WAS this?

.............

[ricercar]

some old IBM keyboards didn't work on some new computers, because they weren't even providing all the power that the PS/2 spec called for!

Ironically, ThinkPad and Lenovo laptops are in this category. For about three years ThinkPad/Lenovos no longer power a model M or Kinesis Contour (PS/2) unless I use the Blue Cube on USB. With Lenovos becoming more prevalent than Lattitudes in the valley, Before I came to Geekhack, it was frustrating to start a consultant gig, take ribbing for bringing my own keyboard the first day, only to have it not be usable by the docked Lenovo rig. Blue Cubes are mana.

Master to Slave?

I remember that. An arcane setting for the BDSM specification.

met my girl in a computer store.

Dungeons and Dragons game at university. She dated only GMs. I was the best she ever had.

[ricercar]

Master to Slave?

I remember that. An arcane setting for the BDSM specification.

[ch_123]

Intel does too.

The solder pads are there, but the ports aren't. Makes me wonder if perhaps the chipset still offers the ports...

Windows won't see the port as existing if no device is connected during boot, so there's no way to be completely sure without hooking something up to see (and presumably the other missing components along those traces).

If memory serves me correct, PS/2 is one of things served by the 'Super IO' - the chip that implements legacy connectivity such as serial and parallel. I wonder why someone hasn't put it on a PCI card already.... or is it PCI-E that all the cool kids use nowadays?

[sethstorm]

Ironically, ThinkPad and Lenovo laptops are in this category. For about three years ThinkPad/Lenovos no longer power a model M or Kinesis Contour (PS/2) unless I use the Blue Cube on USB. With Lenovos becoming more prevalent than Lattitudes in the valley, Before I came to Geekhack, it was frustrating to start a consultant gig, take ribbing for bringing my own keyboard the first day, only to have it not be usable by the docked Lenovo rig. Blue Cubes are mana.
.

Problem is that Blue Cubes (allegedly) strip out extra keys (for us Aircraft & Super Carrier owners, that is a problem).

At least the USB controller that's out there will remedy that.

If memory serves me correct, PS/2 is one of things served by the 'Super IO' - the chip that implements legacy connectivity such as serial and parallel. I wonder why someone hasn't put it on a PCI card already.... or is it PCI-E that all the cool kids use nowadays?

That's been tried already on PCI, but there's the trouble of it not being initialized as a keyboard controller on boot-up.

[ricercar]

Show Image

I'd pay money for that. Time to resurrect my Panther XL USB mod. It has a translucent red trackball that's illuminated under legacy game port.

[JBert]

Well, who'd have thought so?
Oh... I did.
I dread to think how (un)reliable they are after some heavy use when they go out of calibration and the resistance of each key varies with wear.

At least they do seem to have done something interesting with the USB driver to allow more than 6 keys, let's hope that sets a trend.

In defense of this technology, they still delivered a keyboard which may be able to manage 10 KRO (a guess from the article) and the author didn't specify when exactly it'd fail or how often.

While a final product shouldn't have had this problem if it were properly tested, it would seem to me that this issue can still be resolved - probably the ADC wasn't properly calibrated, wasn't picked with the right tolerances or the entire circuit was operating out of acceptable limits. They just didn't remove this flaw.

In the end, you can blaim MS for putting out a faulty product, this can still be a viable technology to get a 10KRO model M. If they just used some more engineering like IBM used to do, they could have gotten it right. After all, the model F also needs calibrating as the pads might get contaminated after prolonged use, yet it still keeps working (holds wood).

[sethstorm]

The Blue Cube doesn't appear to recognize more keys than your standard 104/105-key keyboard.  Probably none of the dongles do.

But there are USB solution there that aren't the size of aircraft carriers.

My "daily driver" is a Model F Super Carrier.  Next to that, is a model M Super Carrier (which could have the USB controller mod).

Now if they decided to remedy it, it'd make it a bit easier to buy Blue Cubes.

[kishy]

My "daily driver" is a Model F Aircraft Carrier.  Next to that, is a model M Aircraft Carrier (which could have the USB controller mod).

Now if they decided to remedy it, it'd make it a bit easier to buy Blue Cubes.

'Aircraft carrier' is the later, smaller style 122-key.

The earlier ones like you and I have are, according to another member, 'Super carriers', which would seem to be aircraft carriers on steroids.

[kishy]

My SPOS cruiser can sink your rusty aircraft carrier.

Show Image

Perhaps fittingly, there is some rust in both of mine I think...

[Xuan]

Random Question
Name the three letter acronym of a common computer interface used for peripherals such as keyboards and mice.

I know the answer! It's ADB...

[ch_123]

Truly well played.

[sethstorm]

'Aircraft carrier' is the later, smaller style 122-key.

The earlier ones like you and I have are, according to another member, 'Super carriers', which would seem to be aircraft carriers on steroids.

Edited replies to reflect that.  Just a bit leery of modifying my M, given the lack of a proper strain relief (unless you count cleverly placed zipties).

[sethstorm]

My SPOS cruiser can sink your rusty aircraft carrier.

Show Image

That's what happens when they scuttle it.

Our equivalent is what happens to keyboards when the recycler gets them.

[Nonmouse]

That's why iMav added it. Enough is enough, he thought, we need some kind of barrier

Whew! Thank god I joined waybackago...

[ak_nala]

The Model F 122-key would be a Nimitz-class supercarrier. They just don't get any bigger.

Also means that with some cheesy laser effects it can time travel

[kishy]

The Model F 122-key would be a Nimitz-class supercarrier. They just don't get any bigger.

Also means that with some cheesy laser effects it can time travel

Well, there are Ms in the same case (which is what I've got) except bottom panel design, just lower weight.

[sethstorm]

Common?

The iBong

Talk about letting out the magic smoke.

[sethstorm]

Well, there are Ms in the same case (which is what I've got) except bottom panel design, just lower weight.

Indeed.  That metal backing on the F does make quite the difference.

[ak_nala]

Well, there are Ms in the same case (which is what I've got) except bottom panel design, just lower weight.

Enterprise-class - about the same size as Nimitz (actually a tad longer), but a little lighter. Chronology's reversed, but no simile is perfect.

[spolia optima]

I like this thread, it has everything:

fire
legos
paedophilia
microsoft windows
some light bondage
balls
drug paraphernalia
and military history

ah, geekhack.