Author Topic: Steps to adapting a more ergonomic typing style? (Read 4718 times)

ChThoniC · « **on:** Thu, 29 August 2013, 14:42:46 »

Since starting to get RSI symptoms from typing and mousing on a mac wireless keyboard and magic mouse about a year ago, I've started to adapt my typing style to be more ergonomic and less stressful on my wrists. I got a proper mouse, and exclusively use TKL brown-switch boards, and I fixed my posture and desk height.

I recently started looking into alternative keyboard layouts, and it made me re-evaluate my typing style again and spend time thinking about how I type. I think that most ergonomics fall into three categories, and I'd like to hear some opinions from gh-ers on the ergonomics of typing.

The first thing is posture. I keep my arm at about a 90 degree angle with my body, and hover my fingers over the keyboard. There are lots of guides around the internet for good keyboarding posture, so I won't go any more into my own thoughts here, but I'd be happy to hear others experiences.

The second thing is typing style. What I mean by this, is how you use your hand to type. As I was exploring alternate keyboard layouts, I noticed that I rarely use my pinky for any typing; just a and shift on my left hand, and just semi-colon, quotes, shift, and / on my right hand. My hand travels a lot when I type, since i use my ring finger for hitting a lot of different keys (tab, backspace, p, [, etc). When I read about keyboard layouts and finger travel, it's a little bit odd to me. My fingers actually don't travel a lot, but rather my entire arm moves to put my hand in a better place to strike keys with my fingers. Does anyone else type like this? Do you think it's more or less ergonomic to type with a lot of arm movement rather than stretching with the pinky?

The last thing is keyboard layouts themselves. I haven't yet tried an alternate layout, but I'd like to hear the experience you've had with both speed and ergonomics (ie: RSI symptoms) with switching. I currently type 95-100 wpm with QWERTY, and would be happy to switch to something else if I could eventually get back to the same typing speed while reducing stress on my arm.

Would love to hear your thoughts on any of this. Thanks!

hoggy · « **Reply #1 on:** Thu, 29 August 2013, 15:50:20 »

Changing to dvorak or colmak will help you get rid of bad typing habits.

Very few ergonomic 'guides' will include 'change'. You can swap keyboards and use the mouse with alternative hands...

Do you have a kinesis advantage?

Architect · « **Reply #2 on:** Fri, 30 August 2013, 05:41:08 »

Warning - controversial statement.

I don't believe that Dvorak or Colmak will improve ergonomics. The idea behind those is that the issue is too much finger movement is causing RSI. My theory is that not enough finger movement causes RSI, i.e. too much repetition. Consider piano players, they (me too as I am one) do all sorts of crazy stunts with our hands, all the time, but it's always changing too so incidence of RSI is lower than for computer users. We can develop RSI too, but that's simple over use from continuous playing. The other problem with alternate layouts is they are difficult to learn and will be difficult to maintain as you have to inevitably use regular keyboards too (such as a laptop keyboard).

I think the most important thing is getting a good setup where the hands aren't in unnatural positions. The IBM-PC layout is horrible in this respect. I can't believe so many people here are into buying these keyboards and then just swapping out the keycaps. Those keyboards will give you RSI for sure because of the cramped and unnatural layout. Instead get any of the popular ergo keyboards, I recommend either a Kinesis Advantage, a Truly Ergonomic, a Dvorak or a Ergo Dox (if you want to DIY). My favorite is the Truly Ergonomic after having used a Kinesis for years. The important points are having some kind of angled, split or separated design (they all do this), put important keys off your pinkies and onto your thumbs (they all do this too), and consider the type of typing you do too. I program software and the TE is a great programming keyboard, if you did pure word processing maybe the Kinesis would be marginally better due to the separated design.

Then just make sure you take lots of micro breaks, and vary how you sit, and also get up and move around a fair bit too. Our bodies like variation.

Proword · « **Reply #3 on:** Fri, 30 August 2013, 07:06:01 »

The OP hasn't described what sort of keying is involved, whether plain text or programming. I've been doing court reporting since 1990, which involves keying audio at the speed of normal speech (150-180 wpm) for hours on end, with only short breaks to start a new job. In 1986, I swapped to a Maltron keyboard using the Malt layout, having been using a QWERTY keyboard since 1967.

This 1994 paper
http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/academic-papers/233-computer-related-upper-limb-disorder
by Stephen Hobday, one of the people who developed the Maltron keyboard back in the late 1970s, shows the fall in myoelectric activity needed to sustain the operating position, resulting from the reduction in the pronation and abduction operating angles. The problem seems to stem from the necessity to keep the hand "hovering" (with the QWERTY layout) in order to achieve high speed keying, which results in unnecessary use of large muscles in the arms and shoulders, and the possible onset of the computer related upper limb disorder.

These two videos show two operators using two nearly identical Maltron keyboards, one with the Malt layout, and the other with the QWERTY. It is quite obvious that the lady using the QWERTY keyboard is moving her hands far more than the operator using the Malt layout. His hands rest almost full time on the built-in palm rests.

Joe

Larken · « **Reply #4 on:** Fri, 30 August 2013, 07:58:49 »

@OP

I type exactly the same you do in terms of finger movement, specifically on the part about not using the pinky for alot of keys. I move my arm to press the backspace with my ring finger. I've had the same RSI issues as you do. You mentioned stress on your wrists - do you have any other issues besides that?

If the problems are mainly on the wrists - I'll have to agree with Architect that changing to Dvorak or Colemak probably wouldn't help. Wrist issues commonly stem from unnatural position of the wrists while typing on a standard board, and a layout change wouldn't do much to change that. Don't quote me on this, but I believe that would be more beneficial should you be suffering from other RSI issues, such as the colloquial emacs pinky, or have a problem stretching for keys.

Slightly lengthy story incoming -

I've been using mechanical keyboards for about three years now - a filco brown was my first board, and as you can see from my signature, I've tried more than a few boards since then. I got several mice in succession. It didn't help much. At one point, I had to take a break from work to let myself rest for about two weeks, during with I tried out voice dictation programs. The one thing that did help however, was getting a split layout board that allowed me to keep my wrist straight - the ergodox. I believe the advantage or several other options mentioned would have a similar effect.

Personally, that change alone, allowed me to keep working for long hours at the keyboard, for more than eight hours a day. I do qwerty on the ergodox - and probably average about 85 wpm at my peak, which was about the same speed as I did on a traditional board. Haven't had any problems with discomfort, and see no point in learning a new layout, though in theory, the finger movement is more efficient. But I could live with typing at sub 100wpm as I spend more time thinking what to type, before I actually hit the keys.

Story ain't over though. The wrist pains resurfaced on occasion - on one hand. Specifically, the mousing hand. I'll be honest - I have bad mousing habits. But part of the problem was from the rotation angle of the wrist while I used the mouse - which was why I tried out several device. A trackpad was too slow to work with, and not precise enough for my liking. I tried a vertical mouse from wow joypen - helped a little, but the feel of the microswitches and the change in orientation didn't feel right. Then I finally settled on a trackball - a kensington expertmouse. Not as precise as a traditional mouse, a little slower to work with, but it was much less stressful to use for longer sessions. I still use a logitech g5/ g9x for gaming and photo-editing on occasion just because it's faster.

Hope my personal experience is of help.

ChThoniC · « **Reply #5 on:** Fri, 30 August 2013, 14:14:31 »

Quote from: hoggy on Thu, 29 August 2013, 15:50:20

Changing to dvorak or colmak will help you get rid of bad typing habits.

Very few ergonomic 'guides' will include 'change'. You can swap keyboards and use the mouse with alternative hands...

Do you have a kinesis advantage?

I don't have a kinesis advantage. I never thought of my typing habits as bad because I don't have any trouble typing accurately at 100WPM, but if it's the source of my RSI-like symptoms, maybe it's worth a change, or re-learning QWERTY and emphasizing my pinky more.

Quote from: Proword on Fri, 30 August 2013, 07:06:01

The OP hasn't described what sort of keying is involved, whether plain text or programming. I've been doing court reporting since 1990, which involves keying audio at the speed of normal speech (150-180 wpm) for hours on end, with only short breaks to start a new job. In 1986, I swapped to a Maltron keyboard using the Malt layout, having been using a QWERTY keyboard since 1967.

This 1994 paper
http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/academic-papers/233-computer-related-upper-limb-disorder
by Stephen Hobday, one of the people who developed the Maltron keyboard back in the late 1970s, shows the fall in myoelectric activity needed to sustain the operating position, resulting from the reduction in the pronation and abduction operating angles. The problem seems to stem from the necessity to keep the hand "hovering" (with the QWERTY layout) in order to achieve high speed keying, which results in unnecessary use of large muscles in the arms and shoulders, and the possible onset of the computer related upper limb disorder.

These two videos show two operators using two nearly identical Maltron keyboards, one with the Malt layout, and the other with the QWERTY. It is quite obvious that the lady using the QWERTY keyboard is moving her hands far more than the operator using the Malt layout. His hands rest almost full time on the built-in palm rests.

Wow, thanks for the videos. Very informative, and I'll take a further look at the Maltron.

I do programming at work, but a fair amount of text typing as well. It feels like I'm typing well when my hands are flying across the keyboard, but I now am starting to realize that it may be part of the problem.

Quote from: Larken on Fri, 30 August 2013, 07:58:49

@OP

I type exactly the same you do in terms of finger movement, specifically on the part about not using the pinky for alot of keys. I move my arm to press the backspace with my ring finger. I've had the same RSI issues as you do. You mentioned stress on your wrists - do you have any other issues besides that?

If the problems are mainly on the wrists - I'll have to agree with Architect that changing to Dvorak or Colemak probably wouldn't help. Wrist issues commonly stem from unnatural position of the wrists while typing on a standard board, and a layout change wouldn't do much to change that. Don't quote me on this, but I believe that would be more beneficial should you be suffering from other RSI issues, such as the colloquial emacs pinky, or have a problem stretching for keys.

Slightly lengthy story incoming -

I've been using mechanical keyboards for about three years now - a filco brown was my first board, and as you can see from my signature, I've tried more than a few boards since then. I got several mice in succession. It didn't help much. At one point, I had to take a break from work to let myself rest for about two weeks, during with I tried out voice dictation programs. The one thing that did help however, was getting a split layout board that allowed me to keep my wrist straight - the ergodox. I believe the advantage or several other options mentioned would have a similar effect.

Personally, that change alone, allowed me to keep working for long hours at the keyboard, for more than eight hours a day. I do qwerty on the ergodox - and probably average about 85 wpm at my peak, which was about the same speed as I did on a traditional board. Haven't had any problems with discomfort, and see no point in learning a new layout, though in theory, the finger movement is more efficient. But I could live with typing at sub 100wpm as I spend more time thinking what to type, before I actually hit the keys.

Story ain't over though. The wrist pains resurfaced on occasion - on one hand. Specifically, the mousing hand. I'll be honest - I have bad mousing habits. But part of the problem was from the rotation angle of the wrist while I used the mouse - which was why I tried out several device. A trackpad was too slow to work with, and not precise enough for my liking. I tried a vertical mouse from wow joypen - helped a little, but the feel of the microswitches and the change in orientation didn't feel right. Then I finally settled on a trackball - a kensington expertmouse. Not as precise as a traditional mouse, a little slower to work with, but it was much less stressful to use for longer sessions. I still use a logitech g5/ g9x for gaming and photo-editing on occasion just because it's faster.

Hope my personal experience is of help.

Yeah it's great reading about your experience! Actually, it's maybe a little bit of stress on the wrist, and mostly in the forearm; I described my symptoms poorly before. I use a Logitech G5 at home, and a Razer Deathadder at work. They're both large and seem to work well for me, but clicking is an obvious stress (although not nearly as bad as that Apple Magic Mouse... I literally shudder when I think about the movement to do the "scroll down" motion.

Thanks

Quote from: Architect on Fri, 30 August 2013, 05:41:08

Warning - controversial statement.

I don't believe that Dvorak or Colmak will improve ergonomics. The idea behind those is that the issue is too much finger movement is causing RSI. My theory is that not enough finger movement causes RSI, i.e. too much repetition. Consider piano players, they (me too as I am one) do all sorts of crazy stunts with our hands, all the time, but it's always changing too so incidence of RSI is lower than for computer users. We can develop RSI too, but that's simple over use from continuous playing. The other problem with alternate layouts is they are difficult to learn and will be difficult to maintain as you have to inevitably use regular keyboards too (such as a laptop keyboard).

I think the most important thing is getting a good setup where the hands aren't in unnatural positions. The IBM-PC layout is horrible in this respect. I can't believe so many people here are into buying these keyboards and then just swapping out the keycaps. Those keyboards will give you RSI for sure because of the cramped and unnatural layout. Instead get any of the popular ergo keyboards, I recommend either a Kinesis Advantage, a Truly Ergonomic, a Dvorak or a Ergo Dox (if you want to DIY). My favorite is the Truly Ergonomic after having used a Kinesis for years. The important points are having some kind of angled, split or separated design (they all do this), put important keys off your pinkies and onto your thumbs (they all do this too), and consider the type of typing you do too. I program software and the TE is a great programming keyboard, if you did pure word processing maybe the Kinesis would be marginally better due to the separated design.

Then just make sure you take lots of micro breaks, and vary how you sit, and also get up and move around a fair bit too. Our bodies like variation.

What do you like about the TE for programming? I'm a programmer but also do a fair amount of typing, so I'd like something that's a hybrid. A couple of my programming co-workers just picked up the Kinesis boards. One switched to it full-time after about a day of switching back-and-forth and really likes it, the other has yet to take the time to learn it.

For programming, did you do any key-switching or have alternate layouts for your TE, or do you find that the layout as-is is enough of an improvement?

Architect · « **Reply #6 on:** Fri, 30 August 2013, 17:41:25 »

Quote from: ChThoniC on Fri, 30 August 2013, 14:14:31

What do you like about the TE for programming? I'm a programmer but also do a fair amount of typing, so I'd like something that's a hybrid. A couple of my programming co-workers just picked up the Kinesis boards. One switched to it full-time after about a day of switching back-and-forth and really likes it, the other has yet to take the time to learn it.

I've had ergonomic issues from the days of using DEC computers back in grad school. At one point back then I couldn't feel my arms, so I've been working on this for a long time. I used the Kinesis for 15 years and loved it. At the time it was the only real ergo keyboard without paying the outrageous cost of the Maltron (which wasn't really available in the States anyhow AFAIK). Anyhow I dropped the Kinesis when the TE came along. I was one of the early backers and stuck with it, now all my computers are outfitted with one.

I think it's the ultimate keyboard for any use, at least it's my ultimate. The main features

Dedicated arrow and page navigation keys, one per hand and so close to the keyboard you can use your thumbs to navigate which I frequently do
Dual symmetric full modifier keys, Command/Meta/Ctrl for Mac (yes!!) and the full complement of Windows keys too
Center key row for important keys used by your thumb or pointer strong fingers
A really small keyboard that is ergonomic. The Kinesis is too large, it takes up most of my usable space and moves my mouse too far out. The angled design of the TE is perfect for comfort.
Reprogrammable, and supports six layers, including one stick (num) and one transitory (Fn)
Real function keys (the Kinesis has funky eraser function keys)
Keys galore, everything dedicated to it's own key and I still have two left over as extra credit
Cover and palm rest which you can both use or not (the keyboard is tiny without the palm rest)
Super sturdy, it's build on a metal backplane
Cherry keys
Multiple options (they used to have more, I snagged one of the one and only run of Cherry Blues)
Split and reprogrammable space bar

Obviously I love it and won't use anything else now.

Quote

For programming, did you do any key-switching or have alternate layouts for your TE, or do you find that the layout as-is is enough of an improvement?

The layout is brilliant as it is, however now that we have reprogramming software I've been working on that. I posted about this on the board earlier, but have modified my ideas since then. The main thing is I put either command or control (OS X or Win) on the left spacebar. I removed the embedded number pad as I prefer a separated one anyhow (though I rarely use it preferring instead the keyboard numbers).

Anyhow once TE and/or Yuri can expand the programming functionality, with a Macro or multi key editor I'll modify it more extensively for programming.

Nimo · « **Reply #7 on:** Sun, 15 September 2013, 08:58:30 »

I've suffered from RSI for about 5 years, which manifests as an aching in my right wrist and both pinkies. I'm a programmer by day and use a lot of keyboard shortcuts that involve holding down combinations of keys with modifiers.

The best solution I've found so far is to use key remapping software to allow the use of space as a modifier for commonly used shortcuts. Tapping space will send a space to the current application. Holding down space effectively gives the keyboard and extra layer and key combinations can be mapped to this layer. This means that I'm holding down the modifier with my thumb and not my weaker pinky fingers.

To achieve this I use AutoHotKey on the PC and KeyRemap4MacBook on the Mac (example scripts attached if you want to give it a try). To reduce pinky use I map:
   - return to space+f
   - backspace to space+d
   - delete to space+g
For convenience I also have arrow keys mapped to the home row VI style when holding down space.

This in combination with a keyboard with a light key actuation weight and a vertical mouse or trackball seems to do the trick for me.

AutoHotkey.ahk (2.4 kB - downloaded 132 times.)

private.xml (4.57 kB - downloaded 148 times.)

pyro · « **Reply #8 on:** Mon, 16 September 2013, 16:34:19 »

Interesting. I tried space as a modifier for a mirrored left-hand layout, but found it hard to press space on its own to produce a space when typing text. Did you get used to that? How long did it take and how fast can you type like this?

Nimo · « **Reply #9 on:** Mon, 16 September 2013, 17:13:25 »

Didn't take long to get used to at all, and I'm yet to have a problem typing a space. Having said that I'm not a particularly fast typist - 50 wpm tops.

uzoc · « **Reply #10 on:** Mon, 16 September 2013, 17:31:04 »

I don't think you can do better than a Kinesis Advantage (see some YouTube videos).
For the rest of us (with no RSI & NOT typing all day) there is no big advantage.
And we may actually see it as a disadvantage because of the learning curve.
I have a Kinesis Advantage at home right now and again for the short time that I have it I don't see and advantage (because I don't type much and no RSI).
By the way Fentek has a special of free shipping, 60 day return policy, with no restocking fee for this model and a limited time (so take advantage of it).
Other misconceptions include that the monitor should be at eye level, when the monitor should be lower than eye level.
I started having problems when following these RSI recommendations!
Final conclusions for me:
Make sure you have the right seat height, too low will feel very comfortable but over times your back will hurt.
Monitor height should be LOWER than your eyesight, not 90 degree but something like 70 degrres.
Hope this helps.

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Author Topic: Steps to adapting a more ergonomic typing style? (Read 4718 times)

ChThoniC

Steps to adapting a more ergonomic typing style?

hoggy

Re: Steps to adapting a more ergonomic typing style?

Architect

Re: Steps to adapting a more ergonomic typing style?

Proword

Re: Steps to adapting a more ergonomic typing style?

Larken

Re: Steps to adapting a more ergonomic typing style?

ChThoniC

Re: Steps to adapting a more ergonomic typing style?

Architect

Re: Steps to adapting a more ergonomic typing style?

Nimo

Re: Steps to adapting a more ergonomic typing style?

pyro

Re: Steps to adapting a more ergonomic typing style?

Nimo

Re: Steps to adapting a more ergonomic typing style?

uzoc

Re: Steps to adapting a more ergonomic typing style?