Author Topic: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron,workman.etc  (Read 28133 times)

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Offline yasuo

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Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron,workman.etc
« on: Sun, 08 September 2013, 17:06:02 »
Hello all
i ask here
now i use DV IMO they too much used right hand
though sometimes  still qwerty
now i want try switch layout again but colemak/maltron or others?

which more both hand and maybe better?
« Last Edit: Sat, 28 December 2013, 02:22:35 by yasuo »
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Offline Tony

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 08 September 2013, 23:06:39 »
Colemak is more balanced than Dvorak, only 6% leaning to the right hand.

Maltron requires specific keyboard, not universal.

If you still use Qwerty, Colemak would be best, since they have 10 keys in common.
« Last Edit: Sun, 08 September 2013, 23:12:08 by Tony »
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Offline TimIsABat

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 08 September 2013, 23:08:07 »
I've tried dvorak for about a week before deciding to go to Colemak. Easy to learn and honestly feels so much better because the distribution of work on the fingers is even. I have been typing on Colemak for a few months. Made the transition to mechanical keyboards easier.
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Offline davkol

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 09 September 2013, 07:48:35 »
It really depends what you type (programming, texts in English or some other language etc.). For example, Colemak is great for typing in English, okay in case of German, but borderline horrible if you need to type in French or Japanese IMHO.

Offline Proword

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 09 September 2013, 21:02:50 »
One of the advantages of using the Maltron is because of its unique shape, it is extremely easy to learn a new keyboard layout without having to "unlearn" any previous layout.  Even wearing a blindfold it is very easy to know straight away which layout you will be using simply because of the feel. 

The Malt layout is designed with English primarily in mind, but given that early this year the Maltron company received an order for 75 keyboards in Turkish, there's always the possibility (which Maltron says on their website) of having your own "bespoke" layout.  Obviously this will bump the cost up quite a bit, but I don't think there are too many makers of keyboards who will (or even can) do that.

http://www.maltron.com/component/content/article/214-keyboard-information/465-bespoke-projects


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Offline yasuo

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 09 September 2013, 23:09:21 »
It really depends what you type (programming, texts in English or some other language etc.). For example, Colemak is great for typing in English, okay in case of German, but borderline horrible if you need to type in French or Japanese IMHO.
i type other languange(bahasa) and english

One of the advantages of using the Maltron is because of its unique shape, it is extremely easy to learn a new keyboard layout without having to "unlearn" any previous layout.  Even wearing a blindfold it is very easy to know straight away which layout you will be using simply because of the feel. 

The Malt layout is designed with English primarily in mind, but given that early this year the Maltron company received an order for 75 keyboards in Turkish, there's always the possibility (which Maltron says on their website) of having your own "bespoke" layout.  Obviously this will bump the cost up quite a bit, but I don't think there are too many makers of keyboards who will (or even can) do that.

http://www.maltron.com/component/content/article/214-keyboard-information/465-bespoke-projects


Joe
thanks for info :thumb:
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Offline xmagusx

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 10 September 2013, 15:13:09 »
The Malt(ron) layout can also be used with any other keyboard which features thumb clusters, such as the Kinesis and ErgoDox.

Another interesting factoid about the Malt layout is how much less your fingers have to move from the home row as compared to Qwerty (and Dvorak/Colemak to a less extent). Malt allows for the typing of 7,641 words without moving your fingers from home row, compared to just 195 for Qwerty. Moreover, there are just 133 words for Malt where you will have to move your fingers from home row for every letter as opposed to 4560 for Qwerty.

Keys UsedNumber of Words (Malt)Number of Words (QWERTY)Longest Word (Malt)Longest Word (QWERTY)
Home Row7641195199
Home Row plus One3984218732010
Home Row plus Two9007287682111
Home Row plus Top Row109639304182519
All Except Home Row1334560817

Reference:
http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/the-maltron-letter-layout-advantage
« Last Edit: Tue, 10 September 2013, 16:47:59 by xmagusx »

Offline thebeargentile

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 10 September 2013, 15:24:53 »
I've not used Maltron, but I tried Dvorak, and am switching to Colemak at the moment... for me, it's huge that the ZXCVB keys stay the same, since I use them all the time in shortcuts. 

Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 10 September 2013, 17:07:47 »
I use the Maltron layout on conventional keyboards but it requires some remapping software or a keyboard with programmable firmware.  I remap a bottom row modifier key, such as left command on Mac OS or left Alt on Windows.  That way, it's not too different from using it on a fancy keyboard.
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Offline Proword

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 10 September 2013, 21:06:22 »
These two videos demonstrate how much difference there is between using the Malt layout and the QWERTY layout of the Maltron keyboard, in terms of hand movements using the upper arm.  The QWERTY operator is hovering her hands nearly 100% of the time, whereas the Malt operator's hands are resting on the built in palm rests for almost the same  percentage of time.



I did my own version of comparing the number of words which can be typed without moving the hands from the home key rows, but including QWERTY, Dvorak, Colemak and Maltron.

http://proword-keyboardlayoutefficiency.blogspot.com.au/ 


Based upon an international Scrabble word list of 172,807 words, the following figures were derived. (The actual word lists are shown in the blog.)

QWERTY - 198 words can be typed without taking the fingers from the home keys.

DVORAK - 3126 words can be typed without taking the fingers from the home keys.

COLEMAK - 5963 words can be typed without taking the fingers from the home keys.

MALTRON - 7639 words can be typed without taking the fingers from the home keys.


Joe
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Offline oneproduct

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 10 September 2013, 21:45:54 »
I would say that that's a poor way of comparing the layouts. You're allowing Maltron to have one more homerow key than either Colemak or Dvorak which is the only reason why it appears to be "better" according to your metrics. This is problematic for two reasons:

1. It introduces a hardware dependency for the Maltron layout.
2. It does not consider what the Colemak or Dvorak layout could gain using the same hardware.

For example, if the Colemak layout were used on a Maltron keyboard and Colemak's F key placed where Maltron's E key is, then they'd both have identical homerow keys and thus an identical number of words that can be typed from the homerow.

Furthermore, for Kinesis Advantage users, which have hardware similar to a Maltron keyboard, the left thumb will traditionally be used for backspace. The letter F (the least frequent of keys appearing on Maltron's homerow) only has a 2.228% frequency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_frequency). For people with typing accuracies less than 97.772% that would mean that the backspace is more frequent than the F key.
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Offline TimIsABat

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 10 September 2013, 22:12:18 »
Honestly, just find try it out for a couple of months for each if you are that curious. I tried dvorak and didn't like it too much, and fell in love with Colemak because it evened out the work on each finger and I hardly moved my fingers away from the home keys. Also a plus with learning a new layout is that when you do learn a new layout you end up using all ten fingers correctly. When I used QWERTY, I only used my index, middle, and ring fingers. I never used my pinky. Now I type with correct usage of my pinky. Plus, when you get good at it, you will look boss in front of your friends when you are typing essays and ish.
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Offline yasuo

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 10 September 2013, 23:21:58 »
thank all i've try colemak not easy from dvorak to colemak :confused:
but quite fun :p
i want try maltron too :D

i think how if maltron on datahand will very very home row :))
« Last Edit: Tue, 10 September 2013, 23:37:44 by yasuo »
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Offline Proword

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 10 September 2013, 23:22:25 »
"I would say that that's a poor way of comparing the layouts. You're allowing Maltron to have one more homerow key than either Colemak or Dvorak which is the only reason why it appears to be "better" according to your metrics. This is problematic for two reasons:

1. It introduces a hardware dependency for the Maltron layout.
2. It does not consider what the Colemak or Dvorak layout could gain using the same hardware."

I'm not "allowing" anything.  It's just better design.  It's like complaining that a single speed bicycle doesn't perform as well as a 27 speed bicycle because it has extra gears.  That's the intention.  The "extra" home key (E) is there simply because unlike QWERTY, where the hands are constantly moving away from the home rows, Malt does not need to have each thumb striking the space bar.   With Malt, the hands very seldom move far or frequently enough to warrant this feature, so one of the thumbs would be left with nothing to do.  Although I don't use either Dvorak or Colemak, if the thumbs were being under-worked because of the "efficiency" of each layout, then that would seem to be an opportunity missed to improve them.  It would seem a simple enough test, just try to use only one thumb for the space bar.   If your typing speed does not change, then you have an "extra" home key waiting to be employed. 

The "hardware dependency"  is immaterial since the Maltron shell design is quite a separate function from the Malt key distribution.  The two videos show that the Malt layout is the ONLY variable involved, as the same physical keyboard shape is used in both videos.

It's of no importance what Colemak or Dvorak MIGHT gain.  Dvorak and Colemak are what they are, and that's what I measured.  I took them as I found them.  If you want to change them, then they cease to be Dvorak or Colemak.   However, if you feel that this is important, then you should approach Maltron because they offer Dvorak as an alternative key distribution, and I'm sure they could supply your  Colemak request adequately.  (You would need to buy four keyboards, QWERTY, Dvorak, Colemak and Malt to have a truly unbiased test - or at least two, because they are switchable between different distributions, with the key caps dual engraved.)

Because my method of measurement of the key distribution is completely independent of human factors (eg comfort, strength/length of individual fingers, distance hands have to move over the keyboard, typing speed, pressure to operate keys) it's unbiased and can be applied to any theoretical key distribution straight away, without the necessity of an operator having to familiarise him or herself with the distribution - ie there is no practice effect.  The only variable in my method is the initial list of words used.  But as long as the same list of words is used for each distribution pattern analysis then it ceases to be a variable and becomes a constant across all distributions tested. 

To see how simple and accurate this test is it's not even necessary to have a physical keyboard.  Create the word list you wish to use.  Just draw on a piece of paper a proposed key distribution.  Make a list showing all the keys that are NOT on the home rows.     I use the basic word processing function to  find and replace each of these letters with a marker of some sort (I use #), then I use a short macro to go through the list and find any word which contains this marker and delete the word.  What I am left with is a list of words which contain ONLY letters which are typed without moving the hands from the home rows.  Since even a single marker in a word will result in that word being deleted, there will simply be a "go/no-go" test to pass.   This could be automated to an even greater degree by combining both steps into the one via a recurring macro, when one could enter all the letters not on home rows and in a single instance, determine the score.  Whilst I don't perform this often enough to warrant creating such a macro, I would suggest that it would not be a difficult task to analyse a couple of dozen different theoretical layouts in a day, assuming they were already created ahead of time.

This to me is far simpler, cheaper and quicker than building (or modifying) a keyboard, then practising with it until a pre-determined level of proficiency is reached (say a random wpm speed) which could take weeks and only applies to that one operator.   


Joe
« Last Edit: Tue, 10 September 2013, 23:29:01 by Proword »
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Offline yasuo

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 11 September 2013, 00:04:14 »
Thanks much
actually i interested maltron layout but nothing software for it.so i try colemak
May i wii tryl make w/ AHK
i  interested also maltron keyboard if quite cheap ;)
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Offline yasuo

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 11 September 2013, 02:21:41 »
I just realized, maltron without letter E :eek:
E on maltron IS Rerurn/Enter  :rolleyes:
so where E letter? :)
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Offline Oobly

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 11 September 2013, 03:47:50 »
I just realized, maltron without letter E :eek:
E on maltron IS Rerurn/Enter  :rolleyes:
so where E letter? :)

It's on a thumb button. The layout has eight thumb buttons for each hand, depending on the version.

Personally I think suka's modified version of AdNW is very nice. Most programs or methods for analyzing keyboards don't take typing rhythm into account. AdNW layout apparently has very nice rhythm and good finger and hand balance. It also has good home row key usage and minimal movement, especially when used on a keyboard with layers and thumb keys :)
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Offline Proword

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 11 September 2013, 04:01:19 »
I just realized, maltron without letter E :eek:
E on maltron IS Rerurn/Enter  :rolleyes:
so where E letter? :)

Maltron keyboard is usually standard with two different layouts.  Unless you specify otherwise, the second option is QWERTY.  The left thumb key is the return/enter if you select the QWERTY option.  Otherwise it is the letter E.

Joe
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Offline yasuo

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 11 September 2013, 06:07:24 »
It's on a thumb button. The layout has eight thumb buttons for each hand, depending on the version.

Personally I think suka's modified version of AdNW is very nice. Most programs or methods for analyzing keyboards don't take typing rhythm into account. AdNW layout apparently has very nice rhythm and good finger and hand balance. It also has good home row key usage and minimal movement, especially when used on a keyboard with layers and thumb keys :)
interested SUKA layout
any picture more details layout
Maltron keyboard is usually standard with two different layouts.  Unless you specify otherwise, the second option is QWERTY.  The left thumb key is the return/enter if you select the QWERTY option.  Otherwise it is the letter E.

Joe
oh thanks now i've know :)
why E on thumb?
« Last Edit: Wed, 11 September 2013, 06:18:32 by yasuo »
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Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 11 September 2013, 06:26:38 »
I just realized, maltron without letter E :eek:
E on maltron IS Rerurn/Enter  :rolleyes:
so where E letter? :)

You have to get a Maltron keyboard that has the layout programmed into the keyboard.   I am mostly sure that every Maltron board comes with at least two layouts programmed into it, even if the keys are not dual-legend.  They have QWERTY and Maltron or Dvorak.
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Offline xmagusx

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 11 September 2013, 08:32:26 »
I would say that that's a poor way of comparing the layouts. You're allowing Maltron to have one more homerow key than either Colemak or Dvorak which is the only reason why it appears to be "better" according to your metrics. This is problematic for two reasons:

1. It introduces a hardware dependency for the Maltron layout.
2. It does not consider what the Colemak or Dvorak layout could gain using the same hardware.

For example, if the Colemak layout were used on a Maltron keyboard and Colemak's F key placed where Maltron's E key is, then they'd both have identical homerow keys and thus an identical number of words that can be typed from the homerow.

Furthermore, for Kinesis Advantage users, which have hardware similar to a Maltron keyboard, the left thumb will traditionally be used for backspace. The letter F (the least frequent of keys appearing on Maltron's homerow) only has a 2.228% frequency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_frequency). For people with typing accuracies less than 97.772% that would mean that the backspace is more frequent than the F key.

1. True, there is a hardware dependency for Maltron, but it isn't anything proprietary or even closed source, it just requires any design with the audacity to acknowledge that ten digits should rest on ten different keys. Qwerty, Dvorak, and Colemak are all designed for keyboards that do not, and as such, are limited.

2. Qwerty, Dvorak, Colemak, and any other 9-finger-home layout can easily be put on 10-key-home hardware, they just don't get the full benefit of the superior hardware because unless you modify them, they still only type nine characters using the home row.

3. If you modify the layouts, yes, you can come up with comparable metrics to any other layout, but then you're no longer comparing layouts. After all, if you rearrange the Qwerty keys to match Maltron's, you get a "modified Qwerty" layout which performs just as well as Maltron -- because then it is.

4. Agreed, backspace is always a difficult needle to thread, since it is entirely dependent upon the individual user. I personally wouldn't want it on homerow simply because I frequently need to move around in my text to get to the place where I made the mistake, as I tend to notice them a fair bit after I've typed them, so even if I technically needed to use the backspace more frequently than I needed to use my "F" key, my use of the backspace usually takes the form of a break in the flow of my typing anyway. As I said though, others might benefit from having backspace on homerow rather than "F" (or even "E", honestly, based on some of the typing I've seen over the years :P ), since it is so personal.

I just realized, maltron without letter E :eek:
E on maltron IS Rerurn/Enter  :rolleyes:
so where E letter? :)

You can take a look at the full Maltron layout here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KB_Maltron_3D_US.svg

oh thanks now i've know :)
why E on thumb?
To allow the most frequently used character to be typed by the strongest digit without moving it from the home row (home row extended by one by the thumb cluster design, anyway).
« Last Edit: Wed, 11 September 2013, 13:28:57 by xmagusx »

Offline oneproduct

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 11 September 2013, 11:42:33 »
@Proword
You seemed to have missed my point when I refer to a hardware dependency. Yes, the Maltron's two thumb keys are a better design, but what I am saying is that if we are simply comparing layouts, and not hardware, then Malt does not have 10 homerow keys. By this I mean if I place you in front of a traditional keyboard, you can use the Colemak layout on it because it has no hardware dependencies whereas you couldn't use Malt because you don't have a second thumb key in a comfortable position.

I would also argue that your unbiased method of simply using the number of words available using only the homerow keys is a poor representation of the layout's overall usefulness. Although human factors are indeed quite subjective, they heavily influence how worthwhile a layout is. This of course makes it hard to measure accurately though, so I understand why you've chosen to do what you've done, however I would argue that your results do not signify that Malt is better than either than Dvorak or Colemak (though it might be).

The sole reason why Malt has more words than Colemak is that 10th key, as the other 9 keys have the same letters between the two layouts. However, without changing the Colemak layout, if you simply gave Colemak access to the same hardware, it could use the second thumb key as backspace like I suggested (and which is the default on Kinesis) and likely have higher gains than having the "F" key that it is missing in comparison (fewer words still, but higher usefulness).

In any case, I find that doing any sort of analysis that ignores human factors, subjective as they might be, is pointless. Humans are inevitably using the keyboards. If 99% of people found that using two thumbs was extremely difficult and painful, you could still say that it is subjective and thus choose not to consider it while giving Malt a second thumb key and claiming it was better. The human factors are what distinguish the layouts: Dvorak favors hand alternation, Colemak favors rolling motions, Workman favors decreased lateral motion, et cetera. Carpalx (search for it on google) does more extensive studies that involve human factors, you should take a look.

None of this is to say that the Malt layout is bad, but rather that I don't find your metrics at all useful because they allow for a hardware advantage compared to other layouts and they don't consider human factors which should be a primary concern of keyboard layouts.
« Last Edit: Wed, 11 September 2013, 11:46:04 by oneproduct »
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Offline Proword

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #22 on: Wed, 11 September 2013, 19:59:20 »
@oneproduct

As I didn't initially see any point in repeating myself, I simply linked to my blog on the topic. 

http://proword-keyboardlayoutefficiency.blogspot.com.au/

 In it I say:

"I don't for one moment hold that this is the only desideratum for assessing if a key distribution is ergonomic or not, but in my view it's certainly a very good starting point. If a researcher is working on two different key distributions and one has 200 words which can be typed without moving the hands from the home row, and another has 8000, then it would seem to be pretty foolish to consider further developing the keyboard with only 200 words at the expense of the other. However, if both key distributions have the same number of words (ie the same letters on the home rows, but distributed differently within that row) then other factors would take precedence."



You say "then Malt does not have 10 homerow keys."  This is in a sense true, because there are 10 home row keys plus 2 thumbs, and for ALL keyboard layouts I analysed, I included both keys for each index finger, since they can be accessed without lifting the hands off the palm rests.  However, if I take the physical SHAPE of the Maltron keyboard into account, then I can access these further keys without moving my hands.  P, Y, C, B, G, V, M, U, Z, W.   On a "flat" keyboard it is not easy to achieve this.  But I do not include these keys in my analyses simply because I am looking solely at the distribution of the keys.  (On edit:  Perhaps we are using different definitions and causing confusion - I've always understood that a "home key" is a key where a digit returns to rest when it is not being used.  Thus on all keyboards the space bar is a home key for the thumb(s), but on Maltron E is a home key for one thumb and space bar the home key for the other.  The home row is the row of keys where the fingers rest, and would exclude the thumbs.)

Again to quote myself from my blog:

http://mostergonomickeyboard.blogspot.com.au/

"Firstly, for me there are two areas which need to be addressed. One is the "form" or shape of the keyboard, and the other is the layout, or distribution of the keys within that form.

I'll tackle the distribution question, as in some respects it is easier to arrive at a simple answer. For any viable method of assessing the ergonomic value of a layout the following should be viewed as essential criteria:

Objective: It should exclude "personal" factors. Comfort of use, typing speed (which is really a function of expertise and practice, thus a result rather than a cause of ergonomics), strength/ dexterity of fingers (which will vary from person to person), distance fingers travel (a function of the size of the keyboard; using QWERTY on a laptop keyboard will give a different result to using a full sized "ergonomic" keyboard).

Definitive. There should be no ambivalence or looseness in expression to mislead the user. A single word or number is ideal.

Universal: It should be applicable to any keyboard (layout) which can be used for "touch typing". (This will ignore touch screens, stylus operated systems, smart phones, iPads, PDA's etc.)

Accessible: It should be practicable by a moderately skilled user. There should be no necessity to write complicated software, rewire a keyboard, swap key caps. Probably nothing needed more than a basic word processing package

Reproducible: Like any scientific test, it should be capable of being repeated any number of times, with consistent results every time.

Inexpensive: Ideally, it should cost nothing."


So I suppose my next question must be does anybody disagree with these criteria, and if so then what criteria (as opposed to method of testing) should we be aiming at achieving? 

I dismiss personal factors simply because that can lead to a situation where I could say I think Maltron is far superior because  in my work (as a court reporter) I'm required to transcribe at the speed of speech (150-180 wpm) for 6 or 7 hours a day non-stop, and I could not achieve that using a flat QWERTY keyboard.  This is personal to me and should not be used to guide other people.  There are several variables:  The type of work I'm doing, the amount of practice I've had to achieve that speed (it took me a decade or so to get there) and so forth. 

On the suggestion for Carpalx I've not been able to find any primary independently refereed papers on the net.    However, on the Maltron website

http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/academic-papers

there is a series of papers, going back to 1977, by both Lilian Malt and Stephen Hobday on the testing and development of the Maltron keyboard.  (It should be borne in mind that the Maltron is primarily designed to reduce strain and prevent or even cure RSI by applying ergonomic principles.  It just happens that this leads to much better performance in keyboarding - in my view at least.)



In your post you say  "it could use the second thumb key as backspace".  Do you mean space rather than back space (ie deleting the previous character)?  In my own experience I very seldom use the backspace key, whereas the space is probably the most common character in typing as every word contains one, and would be an instant qualifier as a primary position character on ANY key distribution.

Joe
« Last Edit: Wed, 11 September 2013, 22:07:05 by Proword »
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Offline davkol

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 12 September 2013, 04:13:49 »
Your stats work only for English. OP has stated he needs to type in Bahasa (not sure which one though).

Offline Architect

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #24 on: Thu, 12 September 2013, 08:39:46 »
I don't think alternative layouts like Dvorak or Colemak are worth doing. One is the ergonomic benefits are questionable. The ergonomic issue with computer keyboards I believe is that the hands don't move enough, not that they move too much. Consider pianists who use their hands much more than keyboardists, they can take a lot more abuse. This is because there is a greater range of movement. It's like exercise, you don't want to do too much, but there is as much danger in doing too little.

There are exceptions, such as relying on the pinkies too much (emacs pinkies). Those fingers are fundamentally weak, this is why I do support moving frequently used modifier keys to the thumb or pointer.
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Offline Oobly

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 13 September 2013, 05:11:59 »
If you are learning a new physical layout, why not also learn a better character layout? I don't see any real downside besides the time invested in learning it and there are very real benefits. Better rhythm, better speed, less "twisting" movements, less repetetive pressing with same finger, more fluidity, etc.. Even Sholes himself proposed a better layout than QWERTY when his mechanism no longer required it.

I agree that the physical layout is a more important thing to fix, though, and very few designs are really good. Maltron and Kinesis are good, they address hand separation, pronation to some degree and correct finger movement and have thumb clusters. Ergodox allows you to also set your own separation, tenting (pronation), and inward angle due to being a split design. ErgoGP improves this slightly by allowing the thumb to drop more. TECK has some good points and some bad. It allows the fingers to move better by having vertical rows with stagger, it has thumb buttons (though not enough IMHO) and it has some inward angle. It is still very flat, though, and has limited programmability.

Piano keys need a lot more force to move than keyboard keys and a lot less speed. Using the whole hand and arm is normal in that situation, but with a well designed keyboard you don't need to move your hands at all. I still recommend changing positions a few times during a long session, but I don't think the hands need to move more. Not so easy if you want to hit the same keys consistently.

The layouts discussed here are optimised for English (and some for German). Other languages will of course have different letter frequency, different bigraphs and trigraphs and different word frequency. They will need a new analysis to determine layout. Some languages may even have already well thought out layouts and so won't benefit as much from a change as others. QWERTY is just plain bad for English typing, though, especially on a standard layout board. No denying that.
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Offline yasuo

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 20 September 2013, 03:07:57 »
How concept to make layout ? :)
I want make layout for my languange
this :)
http://www.sttmedia.com/characterfrequency-indonesian :)
http://freddy.sutanto.info/perspective/2-relative-frequency-in-bahasa-indonesia :)
For top row,home row,bottom row :)
so can balance 2hand :)
 
or any english layout most approach my languange :)
« Last Edit: Fri, 20 September 2013, 05:04:05 by yasuo »
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Offline Linkbane

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #27 on: Fri, 20 September 2013, 23:56:03 »
Personal post which is probably going to get lost in the sea of all this text wall.
On almost any board, because Colemak is the more modern layout and has widely established userbase and because it was invented in the internet era, it will have a larger support base.

Given that I type Dvorak and would personally rather have more people using this layout, given that it isn't a compromise from Qwerty. It took me about a month or so with frequent practice to switch over, but I personally feel that the hand alternation is comfortable and very relaxing. However, based on tastes, there are reasons to have one over the other. As you may know, Dvorak emphasizes alternation, which results in greater accuracy and speed than Colemak, because of it's 'rolling' nature; I cannot find any exceptionally fast Colemak typists, and high 150's in a 30-second sprint is the highest that I can find on search.
Dvorak is not a compromise, and that can be good or bad. If you like the shortcuts and don't want to spend a while relearning habits, go Colemak. If you want greater typing speed, Dvorak is probably a better bet. I personally think that it doesn't make too much sense if you 'optimize' a layout while trying to make it similar to a flawed layout; it's half-optimization at best. I will not speculate much; I believe that Dr. Dvorak took in other considerations when creating his keyboard, and that is why there are faster typists using his format. And Barbara Blackburn.

Either way, I'm needing to sleep for a tournament, so best of luck in finding a suitable format.
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Offline Input Nirvana

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #28 on: Thu, 21 November 2013, 23:20:36 »
One of my long term goals was to reprogram one of my Kinesis boards to copy a Maltron layout. I use Colemak currently. I recognize the vast gain in "home row" typing if you are to place the E in a thumb cluster. I'm curious to try the Malt layout on a Kinesis…but there are some issues due to the different number of keys each keyboard has.

I've been meaning to get a Matron for some time now so I can do some of my own comparisons…maybe next year.

I have several evolving Kinesis projects (splitting into 2 halves, mounting on chair arms, replacing rubber F-keys with mechanical switches, add keys to the matrix, integrating a pointing stick, etc.) Not much else to do other than trying the Malt layout :)
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Offline yasuo

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #29 on: Sat, 28 December 2013, 02:27:03 »
Personal post which is probably going to get lost in the sea of all this text wall.
On almost any board, because Colemak is the more modern layout and has widely established userbase and because it was invented in the internet era, it will have a larger support base.

Given that I type Dvorak and would personally rather have more people using this layout, given that it isn't a compromise from Qwerty. It took me about a month or so with frequent practice to switch over, but I personally feel that the hand alternation is comfortable and very relaxing. However, based on tastes, there are reasons to have one over the other. As you may know, Dvorak emphasizes alternation, which results in greater accuracy and speed than Colemak, because of it's 'rolling' nature; I cannot find any exceptionally fast Colemak typists, and high 150's in a 30-second sprint is the highest that I can find on search.
Dvorak is not a compromise, and that can be good or bad. If you like the shortcuts and don't want to spend a while relearning habits, go Colemak. If you want greater typing speed, Dvorak is probably a better bet. I personally think that it doesn't make too much sense if you 'optimize' a layout while trying to make it similar to a flawed layout; it's half-optimization at best. I will not speculate much; I believe that Dr. Dvorak took in other considerations when creating his keyboard, and that is why there are faster typists using his format. And Barbara Blackburn.

Either way, I'm needing to sleep for a tournament, so best of luck in finding a suitable format.
Actually what means hand alternation? just dvorak have that? :)
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Offline Proword

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron,workman.etc
« Reply #30 on: Sat, 28 December 2013, 18:18:57 »
Hand alteration means using one hand then the other without having the same hand for two sequential keystrokes.  eg on Maltron the common suffix "ation" is typed "a" (L pinky) "t" (R index) "i" (L Middle) "o" (R ring) "n" (L ring) (all on the "home row") or "ment" is "m" (R index Upper row) "e" (L thumb) "n" (L ring home row) "t" (R index home row).

Joe
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Offline Linkbane

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron or others
« Reply #31 on: Sat, 28 December 2013, 19:09:11 »
Actually what means hand alternation? just dvorak have that? :)

Seeing that Proword didn't fully answer your question, Dvorak is based around it. It alternates much more than any other layout, which makes it fast and accurate. Colemak instead attempts to have as short of a travel as possible (rolling) which are more comfortable, but considered to not be particularly conducive to speed.
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Offline Proword

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron,workman.etc
« Reply #32 on: Sat, 28 December 2013, 20:06:30 »
Dvorak ...alternates much more than any other layout, which makes it fast and accurate. Colemak instead attempts to have as short of a travel as possible (rolling) which are more comfortable, but considered to not be particularly conducive to speed.

Your evidence for this please?



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Offline Linkbane

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron,workman.etc
« Reply #33 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 17:01:03 »
Dvorak ...alternates much more than any other layout, which makes it fast and accurate. Colemak instead attempts to have as short of a travel as possible (rolling) which are more comfortable, but considered to not be particularly conducive to speed.

Your evidence for this please?

Please, if you doubt this, I seriously doubt your ability to have a conversation with anyone without making them cite what time it is during the day. It's common knowledge.
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Offline Proword

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron,workman.etc
« Reply #34 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 17:59:17 »
"The assertion that something is "common knowledge" is sometimes associated with the fallacy argumentum ad populum (Latin: "appeal to the people"). The fallacy essentially warns against assuming that just because everyone believes something is true, it is."

(I won't bother giving a citation for this - it's common knowledge - but it's on the internet so it MUST be true)
« Last Edit: Mon, 30 December 2013, 18:24:17 by Proword »
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Offline Input Nirvana

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron,workman.etc
« Reply #35 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 23:44:08 »
...Dvorak is based around it. It alternates much more than any other layout, which makes it fast and accurate….


I believe Proword is looking for a citation that corroborates Dvorak alternates hands MORE than ANY OTHER layout. Mostly because that's a way too generic statement to just stand on its own. And whether it's true or not, it's not common knowledge, not around here at least, and there are a lot of layout geeks on this forum, myself included. Some of us know quite a bit, and some of us know jack ****…that's why it's important to sift through information that is posted so as to not give noobs wrong info. They could spin out of control, they're just noobs!


Before this turns into a bunch of *******s taking swings at each other, let me just toss out that if you participate and make statements be prepared to fully participate and  provide further information like citations, sources, experience, observations, opinions, the family cat, etc. Biased or not, most people here believe information is power and are happy to discuss, argue, debate, make assertions, blah blah blah.


We fight about keyboards, layouts, keycaps, and other stupid ****, but it pays to be somewhat courteous/respectful.
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Offline Proword

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron,workman.etc
« Reply #36 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 23:49:49 »

I believe Proword is looking for a citation that corroborates Dvorak alternates hands MORE than ANY OTHER layout.

Your belief is entirely correct.  Thank you.

Joe

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Offline Oobly

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron,workman.etc
« Reply #37 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 00:57:58 »

I believe Proword is looking for a citation that corroborates Dvorak alternates hands MORE than ANY OTHER layout.

Your belief is entirely correct.  Thank you.

Joe

How many would you like to compare it to before accepting it as a generalisation? (look at the first 2 columns of row rh, the 3rd row)

http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?keyboard_layouts

Or are you simply being pedantic about semantics?  ;) They don't have AdNW on the list, though. I'd be interested in how it compares since it was also designed for hand alternation.
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Offline Proword

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron,workman.etc
« Reply #38 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 01:10:01 »
I was simply asking for a reference to the claim made about Dvorak.  However, since you have brought other layouts into the picture, I see no mention there of Malt's layout.   It seems to me that this "research" is deficient in this respect.  Malt has been around since 1977.  Longer than most other layouts.
« Last Edit: Tue, 31 December 2013, 01:14:28 by Proword »
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Offline Proword

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron,workman.etc
« Reply #39 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 02:11:36 »

I believe Proword is looking for a citation that corroborates Dvorak alternates hands MORE than ANY OTHER layout.

Your belief is entirely correct.  Thank you.

Joe

How many would you like to compare it to before accepting it as a generalisation?



Perhaps I'm being pedantic,  ;) but it seems to me that you are attributing the "generalisation" remark to myself.  I never mentioned anything about generalisation.  That was a remark made by another poster, which I did not comment upon.  If you are not making such a misattribution, then I withdraw my comment.

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Offline Linkbane

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron,workman.etc
« Reply #40 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 02:23:01 »

I believe Proword is looking for a citation that corroborates Dvorak alternates hands MORE than ANY OTHER layout.

Your belief is entirely correct.  Thank you.

Joe

How many would you like to compare it to before accepting it as a generalisation?



Perhaps I'm being pedantic,  ;) but it seems to me that you are attributing the "generalisation" remark to myself.  I never mentioned anything about generalisation.  That was a remark made by another poster, which I did not comment upon.  If you are not making such a misattribution, then I withdraw my comment.

Joe

I looked at the carpalx, and it doesn't appear at glance to have alternation as a factor. However, simply by trying out different words on it, one will find quite easily that it has much more alternation than QWERTY and Colemak. Not experienced with other layouts, so I can only say as far as these two.
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Offline 1pq

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron,workman.etc
« Reply #41 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 02:42:46 »
Why is alternation faster and more accurate than rolling? Also why would rolling be more comfortable than alternation?
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Offline Oobly

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron,workman.etc
« Reply #42 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 03:03:33 »
Yes, I'd like to see comparative statistics for Malt layout, too. It's a well thought out and properly "designed" layout. I wasn't referring to a previous post with my "generalisations" comment. Simply that as a generalisation, Dvorak does have stronger hand alternation than the "common" alternative layouts, particularly those designed for standard horizontally staggered physical layouts (QWERTY, Colemak, Workman, etc.)

Neo, AdNW and Malt are often overlooked.

The first column of the third row of the comparison chart shows hand alternation as a percentage (62% for Dvorak).

I have personal reasons for prefering Dvorak over Colemak, but in fact use a modified AdNW layout in practice (actually a modified form of the BU-Teck variant for English). Each layout has their strengths and weaknesses and it's definitely a personal choice as to which factors matter more to you.

Rolling vs alternation is one of those personal things. For me, alternation is faster and feels better. One reason is my fingers roll "outward" more naturally than inward.
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Offline yasuo

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron,workman.etc
« Reply #43 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 03:07:35 »
Yes, I'd like to see comparative statistics for Malt layout, too. It's a well thought out and properly "designed" layout. I wasn't referring to a previous post with my "generalisations" comment. Simply that as a generalisation, Dvorak does have stronger hand alternation than the "common" alternative layouts, particularly those designed for standard horizontally staggered physical layouts (QWERTY, Colemak, Workman, etc.)

Neo, AdNW and Malt are often overlooked.

The first column of the third row of the comparison chart shows hand alternation as a percentage (62% for Dvorak).

I have personal reasons for prefering Dvorak over Colemak, but in fact use a modified AdNW layout in practice (actually a modified form of the BU-Teck variant for English). Each layout has their strengths and weaknesses and it's definitely a personal choice as to which factors matter more to you.

Rolling vs alternation is one of those personal things. For me, alternation is faster and feels better. One reason is my fingers roll "outward" more naturally than inward.
Neo, AdNW not english how to can compare? CMIIW :D
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Offline Linkbane

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron,workman.etc
« Reply #44 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 03:25:20 »
Why is alternation faster and more accurate than rolling? Also why would rolling be more comfortable than alternation?

It's just hand usage. 'Comfortable' is usually seen as less effort required for an action, which is rolling. Rolling is very easy on the hand, but at speed it's slower than alternation. The less consecutive hand use, the more accurate, because overuse of a hand creates fatigue and difficulty to be accurate.
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Offline yasuo

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron,workman.etc
« Reply #45 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 03:42:36 »
Why is alternation faster and more accurate than rolling? Also why would rolling be more comfortable than alternation?

It's just hand usage. 'Comfortable' is usually seen as less effort required for an action, which is rolling. Rolling is very easy on the hand, but at speed it's slower than alternation. The less consecutive hand use, the more accurate, because overuse of a hand creates fatigue and difficulty to be accurate.
i disappointed with dvorak just because not balanced both hand more to right hand# sorry weak reasons :)) :))
Any DVORAK modified? more balanced both hand,interested ;D
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Offline Linkbane

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron,workman.etc
« Reply #46 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 10:23:40 »
Why is alternation faster and more accurate than rolling? Also why would rolling be more comfortable than alternation?

It's just hand usage. 'Comfortable' is usually seen as less effort required for an action, which is rolling. Rolling is very easy on the hand, but at speed it's slower than alternation. The less consecutive hand use, the more accurate, because overuse of a hand creates fatigue and difficulty to be accurate.
i disappointed with dvorak just because not balanced both hand more to right hand# sorry weak reasons :)) :))
Any DVORAK modified? more balanced both hand,interested ;D

That's Colemak.  :))
Dvorak is better for right-handed people because it has a preference.
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Offline yasuo

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron,workman.etc
« Reply #47 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 11:38:44 »
Why is alternation faster and more accurate than rolling? Also why would rolling be more comfortable than alternation?

It's just hand usage. 'Comfortable' is usually seen as less effort required for an action, which is rolling. Rolling is very easy on the hand, but at speed it's slower than alternation. The less consecutive hand use, the more accurate, because overuse of a hand creates fatigue and difficulty to be accurate.
i disappointed with dvorak just because not balanced both hand more to right hand# sorry weak reasons :)) :))
Any DVORAK modified? more balanced both hand,interested ;D

That's Colemak.  :))
Dvorak is better for right-handed people because it has a preference.
Workman i read more balanced bot hand than colemak :)
yeah,because most people is right hand :))
but i still used dvorak, :))quite lazy for learn layout again :rolleyes:
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Offline Linkbane

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron,workman.etc
« Reply #48 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 15:08:12 »
Any DVORAK modified? more balanced both hand,interested ;D

That's Colemak.  :))
Dvorak is better for right-handed people because it has a preference.
Workman i read more balanced bot hand than colemak :)
yeah,because most people is right hand :))
but i still used dvorak, :))quite lazy for learn layout again :rolleyes:

Hah, learning how to Dvorak is already hard enough, I don't see any gains significant enough to merit a change at this point.
If I learned another layout ever it would probably be Colemak or QGMLWY.
Quickfire TK MX Blue Corsair K60 MX Red Ducky Shine 3 Yellow TKL MX Blue Leopold FC660C
Current best: 162 wpm.

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Re: Dvorak,Colemak or Maltron,workman.etc
« Reply #49 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 18:12:24 »
By most accounts, once you have made a change from qwerty (in English) to virtually any other layout, you've achieved the most single substantial "improvement" possible. Any other change is very, very minor relative to this one change. Of course it would be nice to move to the best possible layout, but there are so many ways of interpreting what is best, or what is best for you. Rolling, alternation, comfort, actual distance moved, maximize stronger fingers/minimize weaker fingers blah blah blah. Not to mention the relative ease with which more new reasonable layouts can be "discovered". At some point (we're probably already there) additional layouts are basically fruitless it would seem. It's too bad it's such a chore to try/investigate new layouts for the minimal change in results. It seems to me most people that the trouble is worth the result suffer from RSI or major comfort issues.

I could never make qwerty work for me….OR 99% of the worlds flat keyboards….very unnatural/uncomfortable. So now Kinesis Advantage and Colemak. I may choose to QGMLWY or other optimized CarpalX layouts…but that will probably be it. The quest for improved keyboards will always continue, not that Kinesis Advantage/Maltrons once split in half aren't pretty damn good!
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
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