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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Fragil1ty on Sun, 23 February 2014, 02:28:56
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This has been plaguing me for quite some time now, I've been a heavy user of Reds for the past 2 years now almost and I've got a Brown board but every time I try and use it, no matter what, I will always find myself going back to the Red board within a few hours.
So are there any users out there that have made the switch from Red to Brown and if so, what made you switch and what made you stay at that switch?
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I don't like that Reds are so linear. I press the key and it just slides down and if I bottom out it just goes *thunk*. Browns are just tactile enough that I feel like I'm getting more feedback, but I know some people think they just feel like dirty Reds. Honestly, to each their own, it's like asking someone why they like salty foods over sweet foods, you're going to get a mixed response.
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browns suck
reds are even worse
bs and blues ftw
*puts on flame retardant suit*
in before topre
but really, personal preference really can't be explained. anyone claiming to know is a dirty liar.
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I make less mistakes with Browns. The small amount of tactility makes a big difference to me.
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browns suck
reds are even worse
bs and blues ftw
*puts on flame retardant suit*
in before topre
but really, personal preference really can't be explained. anyone claiming to know is a dirty liar.
I want to like Blues so much but I grew to hate the click, I feel like a disgrace.
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personal stance: the reds are a LACK of something. i pay money, i want to feel something.
but blues aren't the best; BS are. it's just that the BS cases and caps themselves really suck in terms of customization.
the browns are absolutely inferior to topre by a significant amount in every measure of the switch except cost. browns are the pffice worker switch; topre is the office worker switch that doesn't suck.
once again, all IMO. my money, my preferences.
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MX Red = Godswitch, that's why you keep going back to it.
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As a brown user, reds feel way to bland and boring. The lack of tactile feedback on reds just makes them feel as if something is missing, browns are just perfect :D
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I liked Browns til I started using Topre. I'm a fan of a smooth switch with a satisfying bottoming out now. 55g stickered PCB mounted reds/blacks all the way!
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It seems to me that browns, clears and blues are the only MXes where you can feel the press before bottoming out. But blues seem to be the worst compromise in profile to me: there's hardly any force left in the spring to prevent bottoming out after the actuation point, and on return the switches stop below the actuation point until nearly all force is removed (I've had quite a few repeated characters due to "forgetting" to remove my finger from a key).
Reds vs browns: I've not tried typing on either, but can I ask: can you actually type accurately without bottoming out?
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It seems to me that browns, clears and blues are the only MXes where you can feel the press before bottoming out. But blues seem to be the worst compromise in profile to me: there's hardly any force left in the spring to prevent bottoming out after the actuation point, and on return the switches stop below the actuation point until nearly all force is removed (I've had quite a few repeated characters due to "forgetting" to remove my finger from a key).
Reds vs browns: I've not tried typing on either, but can I ask: can you actually type accurately without bottoming out?
You're forgetting tactile grey, whites and greens. :) Yes, you can type accurately without bottoming out on reds. (I just did.) I seldom type on reds without bottoming out though, I like the sound it makes and I type a lot faster that way. 122 wpm max on typeracer while bottoming out on reds, around 60-70 when I never bottom out. I'm sure there are some extremely light typists which can get high wpm without bottoming out with reds. ^^
In my opinion and experience the force left in the mx blue switch after the click is heavy enough to keep me from bottoming out If I really didn't want to, but I bottom out by will regardless.
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You're forgetting tactile grey, whites and greens. :) Yes, you can type accurately without bottoming out on reds. (I just did.) I seldom type on reds without bottoming out though, I like the sound it makes and I type a lot faster that way. 122 wpm max on typeracer while bottoming out on reds, around 60-70 when I never bottom out. I'm sure there are some extremely light typists which can get high wpm without bottoming out with reds. ^^
Interesting, shows my inexperience (the only mechanical keys I've actually typed on are blues). Do you prefer reds or browns? The browns feel more scratchy, but if I press the two switches fast I don't feel so much difference.
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I prefer reds over browns. Reds are my go-to linear switches and blues are my go-to tactile switches. :)
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I don't think browns are more popular. Is there some kind of poll with a lot of votes to have a rough idea, somewhere ?
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I don't think browns are more popular. Is there some kind of poll with a lot of votes to have a rough idea, somewhere ?
Here's one from 2 months ago on /r/mechanicalkeyboards, feel free to take the results as you will.
http://imgur.com/a/dFiBW
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I don't know but on /r/mechanicalkeyboards I mostly see browns floating around. Seems like it's a popular switch for people getting their first mechanical keyboard at least. Probably because browns gets called the 'middleground' between blue and red a lot.
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I don't know but on /r/mechanicalkeyboards I mostly see browns floating around. Seems like it's a popular switch for people getting their first mechanical keyboard at least. Probably because browns gets called the 'middleground' between blue and red a lot.
Yeah, I posted their survey but it might be slightly skewed, because what you see on there a lot is "I only have 1 board so my favorite is whatever switch is on that board". I know I thought Blues were the **** until I tried other switches.
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Yeah, I ordered an ErgoDox in a hurry before the GB ended, and only got blues because browns weren't an option. Not a fan of blues now, but never mind. Just ordered TECK with reds, so lets see :D
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I don't think browns are more popular. Is there some kind of poll with a lot of votes to have a rough idea, somewhere ?
Here's one from 2 months ago on /r/mechanicalkeyboards, feel free to take the results as you will.
http://imgur.com/a/dFiBW
Interesting.
Didn't know blues were so popular
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http://imgur.com/a/dFiBW
(It’s an internet poll, so utterly unreliable, but..) 50% of the poll respondents there claim to be under 20 years old. Explains a lot.
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http://imgur.com/a/dFiBW
(It’s an internet poll, so utterly unreliable, but..) 50% of the poll respondents there claim to be under 20 years old. Explains a lot.
And the fact - like mentioned above - that most users didn't get to use different switches yet. And since brown is what you get by default on most "cheap" keyboards...
Well, over here anyway.
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http://imgur.com/a/dFiBW
(It’s an internet poll, so utterly unreliable, but..) 50% of the poll respondents there claim to be under 20 years old. Explains a lot.
And the fact - like mentioned above - that most users didn't get to use different switches yet. And since brown is what you get by default on most "cheap" keyboards...
Well, over here anyway.
Is it really? I always felt like I saw cheap Blues way more often then other switches. Where are you located?
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http://imgur.com/a/dFiBW
(It’s an internet poll, so utterly unreliable, but..) 50% of the poll respondents there claim to be under 20 years old. Explains a lot.
And the fact - like mentioned above - that most users didn't get to use different switches yet. And since brown is what you get by default on most "cheap" keyboards...
Well, over here anyway.
Is it really? I always felt like I saw cheap Blues way more often then other switches. Where are you located?
I reckon it's less about the location, and more about the timing. Red, brown, black and blue have all had their time on the throne of the most popular/common switch.
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http://imgur.com/a/dFiBW
(It’s an internet poll, so utterly unreliable, but..) 50% of the poll respondents there claim to be under 20 years old. Explains a lot.
And the fact - like mentioned above - that most users didn't get to use different switches yet. And since brown is what you get by default on most "cheap" keyboards...
Well, over here anyway.
Is it really? I always felt like I saw cheap Blues way more often then other switches. Where are you located?
Switzerland
CMStorm brown is the "go to" mechanical keyboard in not-too-specialized shops here
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I prefer Reds over Browns.
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I very recently bought a Poker II with Reds. I wanted Browns but read so many people saying Browns were simply "dirty reds" that it convinced me to go Reds.
The Poker II needed to depress the Fn key to access the other layer, I figured I should go for the less fatiguing switch because I would have to depress that key often.
I regret going for the Reds. The lack of tactility is really boring. To me, I have more fun typing on Browns than on Reds. Hell, I had way more fun typing on Greens, but they make too much noise!!
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It's kind of simple. People are used to some kind of tactile feel when switching over from membrane/scissor switch keyboards. MX Brown has that familiarity of tactile feel, while MX Red does not.
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A lot of interesting points in all fairness, I mean I type at about 115wpm at max and what not and I love the feel of reds but recently I've noticed that I'nm making a lot more mistakes than I previously used too and I'm not entirely sure why that is.
I was tempted to actually use my Keycool with the browns over the reds (noppoo choc mini) and just switch over all of the keycaps that I'll be able too and try and stick with browns for a week, see how it goes and see how it fairs compares to reds, I mean I guess a week long trial may prove exactly what I need.
I just need to give browns a chance perhaps.
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Everybody is different. Reds are my least favorite. Too light, no feedback, bottom out with a crunch every time. Because of their lightness, they feel cheap to me. I know they aren't any 'cheaper' than any other Cherry switch, but it feels like that.
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The problem with browns is that plate-mounted, unlubed new switches feel very brown, **** that is. No cloud of boobs... and who doesn't like boobs?
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It seems to me that browns, clears and blues are the only MXes where you can feel the press before bottoming out. But blues seem to be the worst compromise in profile to me: there's hardly any force left in the spring to prevent bottoming out after the actuation point, and on return the switches stop below the actuation point until nearly all force is removed (I've had quite a few repeated characters due to "forgetting" to remove my finger from a key).
Reds vs browns: I've not tried typing on either, but can I ask: can you actually type accurately without bottoming out?
What you're talking about is exactly why I hate blues and love greens
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Personal preference plays a huge part.
If you like linear switches then you go red and black.
If you like tactile switches then blue, brown, green etc is for you.
People who prefer browns over reds probably enjoy that tactile feel over the linear feel.
I think that it takes more than a few hours to acclimate into another switch, sometimes.
The best way to do it is to switch keyboards after a day or two when you haven't been near the computer (right after you travel for example). Especially for typing, because of muscle memory.
From a baseline perspective, I would also say that you generally should only take into account the preferences of people who have an WPM around what you have (you said 115)
It doesn't really help if somebody who isn't in or near your WPM tells you what they prefer because your baseline of comparison isn't the same.
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I think that it takes more than a few hours to acclimate into another switch, sometimes.
More like a few days imo..
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I make less mistakes with Browns. The small amount of tactility makes a big difference to me.
Basically this, though I do like both Brown and Red. I feel like I prefer Red a bit better for gaming and Brown a bit better for typing.
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Tactile bump makes touch typing very easy and accurate. With red (no bump) I touch-type a bit faster, but make more errors, so the overall speed with red is slower than with brown.
If you hunt and peck, go with red since you will bottom out anyway. You will get the booby typing feel that reds are so famous for.
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It's funny how preferences form. Initially, my favorite switches were Browns because I liked the tactility, the fact it was quieter than a blue switch, and that the actuation and release points were the same so I could float the key.
After typing on Topre for a while, my tastes have changed! My favorite switch is now Topre, followed by Reds and Greens. Most would consider them to have nothing in common with one another, haha. Topre is my go to switch for a daily driver. Lubed/stickered/PCB-mounted Reds feel AMAZING and are my favorite MX switch now - After typing on Topre I've really come to love a smooth keypress and a satisfying, soft bottoming out. Finally, I like plate-mounted Greens when I want that typewritery, crunchy, satisfying typing experience. I don't care much for blues - the click feels cheap to me, and I didn't like the difference between the actuation and release points. The Greens solved those problems for me, and the extra weight brings even most satisfaction to each key press.
Anyway, to each their own!
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Playing games, I enjoy reds the most. Typing up papers, I enjoy feedback from bs, brown, blue, and esp topre.
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My mx red feels scratchy, which is a bit disapointing. I feel like topres would be like mx reds but 2x better.
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My mx red feels scratchy, which is a bit disapointing. I feel like topres would be like mx reds but 2x better.
More like 3x!
HAHA!
*dramatic pause*
No but seriously, if you think MX red feels scratchy then you'll definitely love Topre!
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My mx red feels scratchy, which is a bit disapointing. I feel like topres would be like mx reds but 2x better.
More like 3x!
HAHA!
*dramatic pause*
No but seriously, if you think MX red feels scratchy then you'll definitely love Topre!
My Browns didn't feel scratchy until after I got Topre :P
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Another Brown lover here.
I can't type on Reds because I'm not as accurate with them, thus making me inhibited.
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My mx red feels scratchy, which is a bit disapointing. I feel like topres would be like mx reds but 2x better.
Your sig scares me.
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Topre gave me finger pain, heck even browns gave me finger pain. Reds reduced my accuracy due to lack of tactility, but were easier on my fingers.
Properly lubed browns with the lightest springs I could find are what I finally fell in love with. I type at 80-100wpm depending on how much caffeine is in me.
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I prefer browns over reds because of bump. Didn't like reds are so soft. It's too easy to misspell.
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i personally dislike Browns
Reds are my go to MX switch
i prefer them to others mainly because how easy it is to depress.
i'm starting to get symptoms of carpal tunnel so anything that's hard to actuate starts to hurt my wrists and hands lol.
I just never liked browns, if I want tactile switch i'd just use Blues.
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A lot of people seem to not like browns at all and even the reds are more popular, but personally I prefer browns to red. I just can't stand having no bump to indicate actuation and while the bump in a brown switch is very minimal in comparison to something like clears it's still enough to identify while touch typing.
Furthermore, browns to me are the most comfortable tactile cherry MX switch to bottom out on. It's almost impossible to bottom out with clears when typing at a normal speed.
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Browns and Reds suck.
Blues, Clears, and BS is where it's at...
HOWEVER... given the choice between Browns and Reds, I'd choose Browns. They're the lesser of the two evils...
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Browns and Reds suck.
Blues, Clears, and BS is where it's at...
HOWEVER... given the choice between Browns and Reds, I'd choose Browns. They're the lesser of the two evils...
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/27/je9y6y2y.jpg)
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because people are dumb.
who picks crap over poop?
buy topre, be happy.
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buy topre, be happy.
Can Topre switches be purchased individually? I certainly haven't found a source in my own searching. That's enough reason to make them unavailable to people like me who have sworn off flat straight keyboards for regular use to protect our health. Stupid has nothing to do with it. Not being made of money plays a role too.
BTW, I'm also describe the browns as "dirty reds". My primary use for a keyboard is typing. That means tactile response is critical. But to me, the brown's tactile bump isn't obvious enough to actually identify it while typing. So IMHO, "dirty red" isn't praise for reds but condemnation for browns. YMMV
I'm now typing on blues, and when AcidFire's beautiful design becomes available, I'll be using ergo-clears. (And Topre's aren't even an option for the reason already stated.)
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Well, demik seems to be a clear Topre fanboy, however the question is about two MX switches. Aren't topre comments out of topic here?
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I prefer browns over reds, because they are infinitely better
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QuadGMoto, have you tried tactile/clicky Alps switches, NMB space-invaders, SMK inverse cross/MX/alps mount, Futaba clicky, orange/cyan Omrons, etc.? You might well prefer them to MX blue/MX “ergo” clear. In particular, Alps switches and keycaps are pretty easy to find, and noticeably more tactile than Cherry MX switches, since Cherry MX is basically a linear switch with an added plastic-on-plastic bump.
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My favorite keyboard of all time (though my brand new TECK has a shot at the title among keyboards I've used) was the Saratoga, the original Apple Extended Keyboard. It's key weight was perfect and it did seem to have a bit of snap. (I still have it, so I can do comparisons with it.) My understanding is that its beautiful feel is due to its use of Alps switches. The switches were about as light as the original IBM XT and AT keyboards (yes, I've been in computers that long) but a lot quieter, and IMHO, less sloppy. The original PS/2 keyboards where much better than the original IBM PC keyboards in a lot of ways, especially layout, but they were far too heavy for my taste, even then.
When I did a comparison of the Cherry switches to those Alps the browns were the closest in feel. Besides feeling a wave of nostalgia, I realized that when I typed on that keyboard, I bottomed out regularly. That's apparently a very bad thing ergonomically. That's why I settled on the blues when ordering the TECK. So far, I think that was the right decision.
Part of the limitations I'm operating under is time, so I needed to focus on switches that are readily available and easy to learn about. I found information and samples of the Cherry switches far more easily than any of the others. Plus, when it comes to ergonomically designed keyboards, the Cherry switches are just about all that most manufacturers use.
It's quite possible that there are better switches, I just don't have the time to dig and experiment too deeply. (Too much other stuff going on in my life that's even more important.) Given all of the above, even if the Cherrys aren't "the very best", they are still very, very good. IMHO, they're currently the best balance between quality, availability, and support of the various switches.
Maybe at some point down the road I'll get to go hands on for some of those other switches and I'll be able to say that they're better switches. For now, I can only say "best of what I've surveyed."
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I have a poker x with reds and a leo 66 with browns. I prefer the leo, but I should say it is not the switches but also the construction of the last, that is more solid with a plate. A friend has a Saratoga in his attic and I tested it once, I can confirm Quad's comment that the Leo feels pretty close to it. It is a very nice feeling.
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My favorite keyboard of all time (though my brand new TECK has a shot at the title among keyboards I've used) was the Saratoga, the original Apple Extended Keyboard. It's key weight was perfect and it did seem to have a bit of snap. (I still have it, so I can do comparisons with it.) My understanding is that its beautiful feel is due to its use of Alps switches. [...] Besides feeling a wave of nostalgia, I realized that when I typed on that keyboard, I bottomed out regularly. That's apparently a very bad thing ergonomically.
Yeah, the AEK I used tactile Alps switches w/ orange colored sliders. I like those a lot. It also had solid construction and dye-subbed PBT keycaps.
The AEK II used dampened Alps switches w/ ivory/cream colored sliders, which have a similar feel but which are much quieter (and I don’t like quite as much), but it had nicer (thicker) keycaps.
I like both of those, and also clicky Alps white/blue, better than any Cherry MX switches.
As for bottoming out on those, I personally find that it’s fairly easy to not bottom out too hard on most tactile/clicky Alps switches (except brown Alps), if you pay attention to it. But also, because there’s such a big force drop after the tactile/actuation point, I find that bottoming out is typically not as bad on Alps switches because I end up not putting much force into my fingers after the tactile point, so even if the switch bottoms out, it’s doing so very lightly: Not at all like the kind of bottoming out required on a rubber dome. Also, the tactile point is pretty high up, giving you a lot of post-actuation travel distance to stop pressing.
I want to experiment with adding some Sorbothane landing pads on them, to see what effect that has on the end of key travel.
The best switches I’ve used to avoid bottoming out are Model F. Nothing else really comes close, but blue/white Alps and blue/white SMK alps mount (“monterey”) are pretty good.
Matias is coming out with an split ergonomic keyboard using somewhat similar switches to the AEK II’s (also damped, similar weight or maybe very slightly heavier, slightly snappier feel, slightly wobblier), the “Matias quiet” switches, which I personally like a bit better than the switches in the AEK II. It should be shipping in about 6 months, and can be pre-ordered now for free shipping. http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/
But I hear you about Cherry MX being more widely available, w/ more keyboards, keycap sets, etc. available. (It’s too bad, because I’m not a big fan of any Cherry MX switches.)
How do you like the TECK?
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Matias is coming out with an split ergonomic keyboard using somewhat similar switches to the AEK II’s (also damped, similar weight or maybe very slightly heavier, slightly snappier feel, slightly wobblier), the “Matias quiet” switches, which I personally like a bit better than the switches in the AEK II. It should be shipping in about 6 months, and can be pre-ordered now for free shipping. http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/
I'm aware of it. It does sound like their key switches will be very nice. However, that board also maintains some design that I'm already moving past, such as its staggered layout, as opposed to a columnar layout. It looks to be a good board for someone who is using a traditional keyboard to start moving to a more ergonomic setup. But I'm personally looking towards a more aggressively ergonomic setup. That's why I'm so excited about AcidFire's project: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.0 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.0)
How do you like the TECK?
Yesterday was only my first full day with it. There is a definite learning curve to adjust to the new layout. For example, the control key is where the shift key is on a normal keyboard. Since I'm on a Mac, that's used as the Command key. So if I'm typing in a web browser and I type a capital 'W' and fall into my old habit… (Command-W is the shortcut for close window, and browsers don't usually confirm a close.)
I can say that the switches feel very good, much better than the MS Natural 4000 it replaced. Though the old keyboard was well broken in, which makes the rubber domes almost 'nice', these switches already vastly outstrip the old keyboard. The structure of this thing feels very solid, and after adding 0.2 mm rubber rings (from WASD Keyboards) to the keys, the noise level and feel are just great, far superior to the Gen 1 Matias Pro I had tried several years ago. I fully expect to be a better and faster typist on this thing once I get used to it.
As for their tech support… Wait, they have tech support?
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For me, I just like MX Browns better just out of preference. They just feel better compared to Reds.
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Game primarily? Choose reds
Don't game? Choose browns
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That's just an urban legend.