Author Topic: Should Obamacare be repealed?  (Read 36953 times)

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Offline microsoft windows

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« on: Tue, 17 August 2010, 16:02:13 »

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Offline hyperlinked

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 17 August 2010, 16:08:13 »
-1000

Yawn. How many times do we have to do this.
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Offline maclover

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« Reply #2 on: Tue, 17 August 2010, 18:47:48 »
Just add a public option.

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 17 August 2010, 18:53:41 »
And who's gonna pay for it?
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Offline maclover

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« Reply #4 on: Tue, 17 August 2010, 19:13:14 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;213739
And who's gonna pay for it?

The same people who pay for health care right now except it will be cheaper. Better health care for less money. The public option is really a no brainer.

Offline ThirdLap

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 17 August 2010, 20:16:08 »
Absolutely not.  The (admittedly flawed) bill fixes some issues that need to be changed NOW, not in ten years.

Besides, the basic tenets of the bill are already almost identical to the ones the Republicans proposed under Bill Clinton. The Republicans were already vilifying the current bill even when it was just a basic proposal that was essentially a carbon copy of their demands from sixteen years earlier.  The issue here is not so much the content of the bill as it is the fact that it has been implemented by a non-Republican President/Congress.

Regarding where the money would come from for a public option: As Maclover mentioned, America is already getting ripped off.  Most countries in Europe pay FAR less per capita for health care yet produce embarrassingly better outcomes using the standard metrics (life expectancy, infant mortality, access to care, etc).

The World Health Organization rates the US's health care system in 37th place, among a number of second and third-world countries.  We fall just below Costa Rica, and just above Slovenia.  These are not numbers pulled out of a hat, but a rating based on verifiable statistics.  

And somehow, despite our atrocious system, Americans pay more than double than the country with the best health care in the world.  

The money is there, it's just going to the wrong places.

Offline Input Nirvana

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 17 August 2010, 20:49:02 »
Quote from: ThirdLap;213769
Absolutely not.  The (admittedly flawed) bill fixes some issues that need to be changed NOW, not in ten years.

Besides, the basic tenets of the bill are already almost identical to the ones the Republicans proposed under Bill Clinton. The Republicans were already vilifying the current bill even when it was just a basic proposal that was essentially a carbon copy of their demands from sixteen years earlier.  The issue here is not so much the content of the bill as it is the fact that it has been implemented by a non-Republican President/Congress.

Regarding where the money would come from for a public option: As Maclover mentioned, America is already getting ripped off.  Most countries in Europe pay FAR less per capita for health care yet produce embarrassingly better outcomes using the standard metrics (life expectancy, infant mortality, access to care, etc).

The World Health Organization rates the US's health care system in 37th place, among a number of second and third-world countries.  We fall just below Costa Rica, and just above Slovenia.  These are not numbers pulled out of a hat, but a rating based on verifiable statistics.  

And somehow, despite our atrocious system, Americans pay more than double than the country with the best health care in the world.  

The money is there, it's just going to the wrong places.

Exactly. This info is readily available. I'm amazed at what I hear "on the street" that is contrary about this. Are so many people that embarrassingly stupid, or just incredibly and embarrassingly ill-informed?
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Offline Oqsy

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 17 August 2010, 22:20:22 »
Oh my god why does this thread exist?
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Offline Input Nirvana

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 17 August 2010, 22:35:07 »
Quote from: Oqsy;213782
Oh my god why does this thread exist?


This is an off topic section that has nothing to do with keyboards that allows people to blow off steam so they are less likely to infect the "real forum" and it's nobel purpose. Let's face it, lots of people have stupid thoughts, ideas, and crap. After all, if someone doesn't agree with you then their opinion is obviously worthless, right?

The really great thing is that this thread is also completely voluntary. :)
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Offline Oqsy

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 17 August 2010, 22:46:23 »
"Nobel" was a man.

I love that trolling a troll thread is now met with smart-assery.
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Offline hyperlinked

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 17 August 2010, 22:48:33 »
Quote from: input nirvana;213785
After all, if someone doesn't agree with you then their opinion is obviously worthless, right?

I think he might be referring to this topic as a zombie that keeps coming back to life and MW is a repeat offender. The first few times there was some intelligent discussion. Each time it comes up, the discussion gets more cartoonish.

Also the guy who wants the debate  isn't old enough to buy his own health insurance and has a rap sheet for trolling.

Where did the rest of those 30 days go?
« Last Edit: Tue, 17 August 2010, 22:50:37 by hyperlinked »
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Offline Input Nirvana

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 17 August 2010, 23:02:44 »
Quote from: Oqsy;213789
"Nobel" was a man.

I love that trolling a troll thread is now met with smart-assery.


Yea, "Nobel" was a man. I was so excited to write something snarky that I lost myself.

And, let me just add, that I don't really understand people writing smack on a forum. I'm trying it on for size, and it pretty much does nothing for me. I am ready to go back to being my normal, "noble" and wonderful self. :)
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Offline Oqsy

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 17 August 2010, 23:44:58 »
input: it suits you well ;)

hyperlinked nailed it...  

I think everyone should start PM'ing their responses to these "controversial" topics that MSW posts.  

I mean honestly, it doesn't matter to me one way or another if he makes these posts, but his intentions are clearly not what he claims.  I've defended him in multiple situations, private and public, but this is getting pathetic and is only an attempt to incite more complaints and arguments based not on content, but on some personal vendetta(s).    

A 30 day ban shortened to 2 or 3 days with posts the entire time under an alias, and obviously it has only reinvigorated him...
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Offline ThirdLap

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 00:34:39 »
Quote from: input nirvana;213776
Are so many people that embarrassingly stupid, or just incredibly and embarrassingly ill-informed?

Yes.

Offline Input Nirvana

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 01:00:31 »
Quote from: ThirdLap;213812
Yes.


That makes me even sadder :(
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Offline Input Nirvana

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 01:03:06 »
Quote from: hyperlinked;213790
I think he might be referring to this topic as a zombie that keeps coming back to life and MW is a repeat offender. The first few times there was some intelligent discussion. Each time it comes up, the discussion gets more cartoonish.

Where did the rest of those 30 days go?


Yes and where?
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Offline ThirdLap

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« Reply #16 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 01:22:54 »
Didn't know of MW's reputation.  Was hoping for intelligent, well-informed debate.  Oh well.

Offline hyperlinked

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 01:23:42 »
Quote from: input nirvana;213818
Yes and where?

Here:
Healthcare (Welly Started it)

I made a long ass reply that took a lot of time to write carefully so I'm not too keen on repeating the feat. My perspective on healthcare is on page 4. People on both sides of the "Best Healthcare in the World" divide might find it interesting. We do and we don't at the same time.
Page 4 - Healthcare
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Offline ThirdLap

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« Reply #18 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 01:32:19 »
Quote from: hyperlinked;213825
I made a long ass reply that took a lot of time to write carefully so I'm not too keen on repeating the feat. My perspective on healthcare is on page 4. People on both sides of the "Best Healthcare in the World" divide might find it interesting. We do and we don't at the same time.
Page 4 - Healthcare

Great post. Hits the nail on the head with regard to the difficulties that come with reform.

Offline Findecanor

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 04:58:43 »
I live in European country where the cost of healthcare is mostly embedded in taxes. The price of a doctor's appointment costs always less than $100, for minor ailments it is often around $30. The price of hospital care is a bit higher, of course. Institutions are run both by local governments and by private companies, all of them part of the same systems, and the prices are comparable. I have always assumed that I can get any healthcare I need, even in times that I have been a full-time student or unemployed and not had that much money to spend.

I am a frequent user on several forums where most people are US:ians, and every now and then people complain about the cost of healthcare in the US. Spending five figures for a night's stay in hospital that wasn't needed. People who can't get the help they need because they don't have health insurance. Drives to collect money for medical care for someone's daughter, without which the daughter would die (but did anyway).
To me, all of that is only surrealistic. It does not feel real.

From the little I have heard, a healthcare reform is sorely needed in the US, and while "Obamacare" might not be perfect, I can not see why it would not be at least a step in the right general direction.
« Last Edit: Wed, 18 August 2010, 05:09:51 by Findecanor »

Offline microsoft windows

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 06:27:00 »
Quote from: maclover;213746
The same people who pay for health care right now except it will be cheaper. Better health care for less money. The public option is really a no brainer.


I think you're the no-brainer here. How does better health care service get cheaper? Especially when the US Government handles it? Do we just not pay the doctors? Or does some wizard just go in and wave his wand around and healthcare magically becomes cheaper?
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Offline quadibloc

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 06:45:26 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;213854
How does better health care service get cheaper? Especially when the US Government handles it? Do we just not pay the doctors? Or does some wizard just go in and wave his wand around and healthcare magically becomes cheaper?
Well, you're cutting out the middleman who has to charge extra to cushion his risks, and return money to investors. That's how. With a public option, we're only paying the doctors (and the nurses and the hospitals and so on).

Of course, there will still be record-keeping requirements, even in a public system, so not all overhead will be eliminated.

Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #22 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 06:53:57 »
So you're not paying the beurocracy hired to regulate the health care system? And, since they're government employees under Obama, who's gonna pay their union organizers?
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Offline iMav

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #23 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 07:01:21 »
As far as I'm concerned, the federal government should be as small and unobtrusive as possible.  Stick to national defense and interstate commerce regulation.  Fund yourself through tariffs. Stay away from my paycheck and leave everything else to the states and individuals.  

Repeal the 17th ammendment so that senators actually represent the state governments again (which is their role).  Make Congress (again) part time and implement term limits.  Construct dorms in the capital and mandate that senators and congressmen stay there during their sessions (THAT will encourage them to not put down roots in DC).

The federal government was never intended to be our babysitters, retirement fund, and safety net.  Those things should be handled locally.  Both the republicans and democrats are worthless AFAIC.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #24 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 08:03:25 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;213860
So you're not paying the beurocracy hired to regulate the health care system? And, since they're government employees under Obama, who's gonna pay their union organizers?


Large companies have superfluous bureaucracy too, and all sorts of overheads that just aren't applicable to governments, and then you have the profit issue which makes up a significant percentage of the cost. So in terms of a simple equation, you have -

Government: Bureaucracy, some overheads, actual cost of healtchare
Companies: Bureaucracy, more overheads, need for profit, actual cost of healthcare.

Furthermore, when you are with healthcare company X, their costs are subdivided amongst their subscribers. In a public healthcare system, costs are subdivided amongst everyone else in the country. Obviously the costs are going to go up because you are covering everyone as opposed to just a few people, but you have to consider that the costs of insuring people don't necessarily scale linearly to how many people you are insuring, so it's cheaper for one entity to insure a larger number of people than it is for a large number of entities to insure a small number of people each.

I don't necessarily think that public healthcare is "better" than private healthcare. Over here, we have public healthcare, but lots of people (including my family) have private health insurance. This is because with private healthcare there is shorter waiting lists and a better selection of treatments. But the issue is A) the expensive nature of US healthcare that necessitates health insurance to get healthcare and B) the huge percentage of the American population that cannot afford health insurance and therefore cannot affort healthcare. For them, any sort of healthcare system is better than none.

In fact, in some ways it's good that people who can afford private healthcare will probably go for the private healthcare, because it means that the public healthcare's resources are dedicated to the people who really need it the most. Because the private companies now have to compete with free insurance, they will have to offer a more competitive service, and thus you can argue that those who pay for private healthcare will end up saving money and getting better service, even if they have to effectively pay the medical bills of the guy who sweeps the streets or works on a building site or whatever.

I don't know about you, but I think healthcare, education and security are the bare minimum of what a government should provide to its people.

Quote
As far as I'm concerned, the federal government should be as small and unobtrusive as possible. Stick to national defense and interstate commerce regulation. Fund yourself through tariffs. Stay away from my paycheck and leave everything else to the states and individuals.


Last I checked, more Americans are dying from health problems than national defense issues.

Again, when done at a national as opposed to state level, you cut down costs by having more people chip in. If we assume that that some sort of socialized healthcare is a good idea, then having a common system for all states cuts down on superfluous duplication of functionality which only serves to waste money on each state's red tape. It makes an awful lot of sense in terms of saving money and increasing efficiency.

I guess what I'm saying is that the debate is whether or not social healthcare is a good idea, not whether "big government" should be getting involved, because whether or not big government should get involved depends entirely on whether it's a good idea or not.
« Last Edit: Wed, 18 August 2010, 08:48:07 by ch_123 »

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #25 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 08:17:40 »
Well said, ch_123, I couldn't have said it better myself.


Offline patrickgeekhack

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« Reply #26 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 09:30:35 »
Quote from: ch_123;213872
...I don't necessarily think that public healthcare is "better" than private healthcare. Over here, we have public healthcare, but lots of people (including my family) have private health insurance. This is because with private healthcare there is shorter waiting lists and a better selection of treatments. But the issue is A) the expensive nature of US healthcare that necessitates health insurance to get healthcare and B) the huge percentage of the American population that cannot afford health insurance and therefore cannot affort healthcare. For them, any sort of healthcare system is better than none...


I have always been for a mixture for both public and private healthcare like was the case in my native country. In Ontario, it's public healthcare only. Of course, it has some downsides like waiting lists, but on the good side, the cost to each person (taxes) is much lower than it would have been if I were to need to have an MRI for example.

I have read quite a bit on the attitude of Americans towards public healthcare in my various Sociology, Psychology and Social-Psychology class. The general trend is that most Americans feel they are in a better situation with private healthcare even if some Americans don't have access to healthcare at all. I don't judge their way of thinking for culture plays a big part in it. I respect every culture and I don't think I have the right to judge a culture.

However, what I have observed is that most of the time those who are for private healthcare are the ones who can afford private healthcare. Like you said, for those who cannot afford any kind of healthcare, any healthcare is better than no healthcare at all.

Healthcare is not the greatest in Ontario. You can spend a whole day at the emergency at the hospital. But, what I do like is that I don't have to worry about this side of things even if I lose my job tomorrow. This is very important to me for I have a wife and a daughter to care for.

Offline instantkamera

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« Reply #27 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 09:39:38 »
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;213887

Healthcare is not the greatest in Ontario. You can spend a whole day at the emergency at the hospital. But, what I do like is that I don't have to worry about this side of things even if I lose my job tomorrow. This is very important to me for I have a wife and a daughter to care for.


You nailed it. The Canadian healthcare system isn't perfect, but it's shortcomings aren't known to a lot of Canadians as they don't even have to think about the system for the most part. To me that is the sign of a DECENT (but not perfect) healthcare system.
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Offline Konrad

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« Reply #28 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 10:10:29 »
As a demi-canadian (native of British Columbia and California), I found that healthcare is easily accessible in the states - if you have cash  -while that's not always the case with Canadian medicare.  Medicare's a good thing, but I know many people who've had "problems" getting the treatments they desire, sort of the same problems Americans complain about with HMOs.  Many Canadians opt to travel to the US for medical procedures, many even choose Europe's or India's medicine instead.

Offline instantkamera

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« Reply #29 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 10:18:01 »
Your right about that. You don't get to be greedy, you have to wait like everybody else, generally, no matter how much you make.

That's why Danny Williams went to the states for heart surgery, he has the money and doesn't have to bump himself up in line (and push anyone down, a bad political move if ever there was one) to see someone in Canada.
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Offline patrickgeekhack

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« Reply #30 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 10:27:02 »
Quote from: instantkamera;213888
You nailed it. The Canadian healthcare system isn't perfect, but it's shortcomings aren't known to a lot of Canadians as they don't even have to think about the system for the most part. To me that is the sign of a DECENT (but not perfect) healthcare system.

Yes. I used to complain that we need to improve drastically until my wife got pregnant. Once she was 20 weeks pregnant, we did not have to go through emergency. We would go a different section where service was fast, very fast.

Moreover, when the pregnancy was having some complication, she needed to see her OB-GYN more often and have tests done more often. And when things got really delicate, she spent time a couple of weeks in the hospital. All these were of not charge to us.

Quote from: instantkamera;213905
Your right about that. You don't get to be greedy, you have to wait like everybody else, generally, no matter how much you make.

That's why Danny Williams went to the states for heart surgery, he has the money and doesn't have to bump himself up in line (and push anyone down, a bad political move if ever there was one) to see someone in Canada.


It's true that because of public healthcare, we need to wait sometimes. If I'm not mistaken, if the wait period is too long, I could go to Buffalo and have the test done and OHIP (Ontario Healthcare Insurance Plan) will still pay for it.

Offline patrickgeekhack

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« Reply #31 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 10:35:14 »
Quote from: ripster;213906
Must not tell Canadian jokes, dis iz seriaz thread....
Must not tell Canadian jokes, dis iz seriaz thread...
Must not tell.....


You can tell Canadian jokes. We don't own this site and you are fee to say what you want to say. Whether what you said complies to the rules of the forum is a different thing :-)

Canada and USA are close to each other, yet the two countries are quite different from each other.

Offline Input Nirvana

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #32 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 10:40:03 »
Quote from: Oqsy;213806
input: it suits you well ;)



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Offline Input Nirvana

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #33 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 10:42:30 »
Quote from: hyperlinked;213825
Here:
Healthcare (Welly Started it)

I made a long ass reply that took a lot of time to write carefully so I'm not too keen on repeating the feat. My perspective on healthcare is on page 4. People on both sides of the "Best Healthcare in the World" divide might find it interesting. We do and we don't at the same time.
Page 4 - Healthcare

Uber-cool, thank you. Links are appreciated.
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Offline Konrad

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #34 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 10:44:46 »
Other considerations aside, Canadian medicare has long been criticized as an unsustainable long-term solution.  Biggest single contributor to the Canadian national deficit, costs increase annually at an exponential rate that even our growing tax burden can't support.  I don't know how politicians and accountants justify this sort of ****, but it's obvious to anyone with a brain that the existing system is going to collapse one way or another.  Most Canadians (that I know) are proactive about their own medical and retirement savings because they have a real lack of faith in our government still being able to provide these services when they're really needed, both presently and in the not-so-distant future.
 
This is just another nail in the coffin when you look at the other pitfalls in our system.  Canada isn't the first nation facing this problem - the UK has been notorious in this regard (at least as far as dentistry is concerned) for decades.  Again, citizens who want (and can afford) medical treatments "skip the line" by paying out of pocket in the USA.
 
So, given these examples, how the **** can any USA politico claim it's a good thing to remodel their existing medical infrastructure in a way that other nations have already demonstrated is inferior and untenable?

Offline ch_123

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #35 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 10:49:42 »
But here you make the assumption that the concept is inherently unreliable within of itself based on the fact that it hasn't worked in some other countries. Can you say for certain that the systems in these countries could never be fixed?

Offline itlnstln

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #36 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 10:52:47 »
Quote from: ripster;213910
Itln, I reported your post for violating Forum Guidelines BTW.


I appreciate your efforts as an upstanding member of this community.  Your hard work will not be rewarded.


Offline patrickgeekhack

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #37 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 11:03:24 »
Quote from: Konrad;213928
Other considerations aside, Canadian medicare has long been criticized as an unsustainable long-term solution.  Biggest single contributor to the Canadian national deficit, costs increase annually at an exponential rate that even our growing tax burden can't support.  I don't know how politicians and accountants justify this sort of ****, but it's obvious to anyone with a brain that the existing system is going to collapse one way or another.  


Question: How long has this system existed in Canada?  This kind of system exist in France also. Sure there will be deficit, but deficit is not debt. They are two different things. Growing tax is the other side of the coin if you want to have public healthcare and snow removal, and salt spreading in winter. The money has to come from somewhere. We cannot expect to have our cake and eat it too. It may  have been criticized as unsustainable but it is still going on. Canada does not have many examples of “unsustanaible” disasters as the US does. Dot com bursts did not affect Canada as much as it affected US nor was the housing disaster. If anything, I see the housing market still going strong in Canada. My townhouse price appreciated by about $25 K in 2.5 years.

Offline Konrad

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #38 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 11:17:04 »
Can I say for certain?  Of course not.
 
Canadian medical universities command high prestige, recognized (within certain specialties) as the foremost in the world.  Census Canada statistics report that 19 out of every 20 doctors we train move to the USA, with 1-2 subsequently returning to Canada.  Obviously most (85-95%) of these new doctors want to practice in the USA because they're attracted to better facilities, working conditions, and payments.
 
Canadian waiting lists for organ transplants are much longer than their US counterparts.
Canadians have a hell of a time getting a second (or third) opinion, since their doctor is often the only "official" channel into medical advice and diagnosis.
Canadians can't request things like MRI scans or whatever (justified or on a whim) because their assigned physician makes the ultimate decision on the matter.
Really, Canadians only have advantages in those rare instances where local universities happen to be world leaders (example, UBC is the world leader in some areas of oncology, geriatrics, and burn trauma), otherwise it's up to the doctors to decide whether or not your particular medical treatment is "justified" on a financial return basis (which option minimizes long-term dollar expenditures, based on statistical chance of recovery instead of factors like quality of life, etc).
Conspiracy theorists assert that Canadian doctors are more "corrupt" when considering the (alleged) kickbacks they get for pushing new pharmaceuticals, or when considering their own career advancement (budget) over their patient's health.  A "treatment" which requires regularly popping a magic pill to control the symptoms of your sickness is far more profitable than a "cure" which can only generate revenue once.
 
No doubt these things do exist, though whether they are exaggerated or covered-up I cannot say.  No doubt these sorts of problems exist in the US as well.
 
Can these sorts of problems be fixed?
In the USA - maybe.  There would probably be teething pains, but it might work.  In the short term it would cost a lot of money without providing gains.  The elite within the US will continue to buy the best medicine they can afford, regardless of public services - which I think would degrade the overall medical service for everyone else (the best doctors and facilities would operate indepently, they don't want government paycheques when they can get Tom Cruise instead).
 
In Canada - nope.  Our government policy isn't run by the politicians and leaders who figurehead policies.  It's run by bureaucrats.  Red tape and forms and checkboxes for every bloody thing, even to just request more copies of the forms themselves when they start running low.  Bureaucrats as people aren't bad.  Bureaucrats as a power group are terrible - so focussed on procedural regularization and documentation that it takes two of them to make a single halfwit.  Medicare in Canada is an "institution"; a monolithic glacial massive thing with sluggish momentum that leaves lots of debris in it's path.  In the US, government "institutions" seem to be more modular, "structures" would be a better word to describe how they can merge together or be broken apart into other governmental components.
 
Just my thoughts.

Offline ch_123

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #39 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 11:27:02 »
Again, the problem is here is Canadian politicians, and not socialized healthcare as a concept...

Offline Konrad

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #40 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 11:32:20 »
"deficit" is a lot of things; every time somebody buys a bond the deficit grows.  Canada has a generally healthy economy.  By "unsustainable" I mean that the medical component of Canada's budget becomes more and more costly - at an astonishing rate in recent years - while accessibility and quality of medicine generally decline.  A large part of that is said to be our aging population, a greater proportion of elderly people who generally require more involved and expensive medical care.
 
Sure housing markets in the cities are strong.  Largely that's due to huge immigration from India and Asia.  More importantly, it has nothing to do with the deficit since the government is not in the habit of profiting from private real estate.
 
Census Canada reports (including budget and accounting statements) clearly show that the costs of the medicine are increasing at a far greater rate than those of any other sector.  Recent administrations have offset this particular problem by raising taxes (especially in high technology business), "opening" natural resources (attracting more mining/minerals corporatations), and selling "surplus" energy (which really means, letting the hydro companies sell the energy, then pass the inflated cost of "buying it back" to the end-user).  I'm seriously surprised they don't sell our water yet (still freely delivered to California, Colorado and places beyond).
 
A big part of the rising costs is the necessity of increasing salaries for physicians and nurses to reach parity with those offered within the US.  A harder thing to do when you've only got 10% as much population to pay for the same high-end hospital equipment.  Apparently there's a Canada-wide dire shortage of nurses; we need 2,000 more today and an estimated 50,000 more by 2020, nurses we don't have.  Critics claim they're predicting similar shortages of doctors.

Offline Konrad

  • Posts: 348
Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #41 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 11:49:19 »
As an aside, there are countries where socialized medicine is implemented in a manner that's considered affordable, accessible, and effective. Although democratic, they tend to have a more "socialist" flavour than America would probably be comfortable accepting; the government is the only authority when controlling such things as utilities, power, transport, communications, medicine, education, etc. These functions all fall under the jurisdiction of any competent government, but the heavy-handed authoritarian way they're handled (in places like Denmark, Germany, or Russia, for example) would require a lot of restructuring to be implemented in America (or even Canada), restructuring of corporations and industry (and all their related laws and bills and so forth) ... the final result to emulate one of these "successful" models would involve a lot more than just reshaping the medical budget.
« Last Edit: Wed, 18 August 2010, 11:52:26 by Konrad »

Offline patrickgeekhack

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #42 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 12:03:35 »
Quote from: Konrad;213942
Can I say for certain?  Of course not.
 
Canadian waiting lists for organ transplants are much longer than their US counterparts.
Canadians have a hell of a time getting a second (or third) opinion, since their doctor is often the only "official" channel into medical advice and diagnosis.
Canadians can't request things like MRI scans or whatever (justified or on a whim) because their assigned physician makes the ultimate decision on the matter.
 
Just my thoughts.


While I don't agree with everything you said, I do agree with this. It's indeed nearly impossible to get a second opinion. A second opinion is nice, considering doctors are human beings who can make mistakes just like any other human being.

Offline maclover

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #43 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 12:05:35 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;213854
I think you're the no-brainer here. How does better health care service get cheaper? Especially when the US Government handles it? Do we just not pay the doctors? Or does some wizard just go in and wave his wand around and healthcare magically becomes cheaper?

Looking at other nations where they have a public option where they get more for less and saying that's not for us seems incredibly stupid.

Offline microsoft windows

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #44 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 16:38:36 »
You can't get more for less without someone else subsidizing it (Which means only a certain portion of the population gets the discount while the other portion pays for it). And chances are the funding for those socialistic health care systems is coming from nowhere (It's getting borrowed from places like China). The only way health care gets cheaper and retains its quality is if it's streamlined and made more efficient (Which competition amongst private institutions leads to). Goverment control over it actually leads to stifling of innovation within the industry.

And, looking at it from a more common sense view: If the U. S. government can't subsidize digital TV converters for less than 10% of the population without the program going broke, then how will they do subsidizing 1/6 of the U. S. economy?
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Offline itlnstln

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #45 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 16:54:30 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;214078
The only way health care gets cheaper and retains its quality is if it's streamlined and made more efficient (Which competition amongst private institutions leads to).

Ask Californians how all that worked out for electricity.  One of the main reasons healthcare is cheaper overseas is that other countries regulate how much doctors and, more so, pharmaceutical companies can charge.  Since there is no regulation like that in the US, doctors and, more so, pharmaceutical companies rape the **** out of us.  There is a common misconception that free markets make everything work out for the consumer.  This wasn't the case for energy in CA, it wasn't the case for the financial market, and it is not the case for healthcare.  When an industry, as a whole, can rape consumers, they will even if there is competition amongst the players in the industry.


Offline Konrad

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #46 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 17:00:59 »
Quote from: microsoft windows
... If the U. S. government can't subsidize digital TV converters for less than 10% of the population without the program going broke, then how will they do subsidizing 1/6 of the U. S. economy?
I don't know if that's true (it could be).  But it does beg the (hypothetical?) question: when sacrifices need to be made, will the people (or the government) ultimately choose television or medicine?

Offline Ekaros

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #47 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 17:04:34 »
Quote from: itlnstln;214087
Ask Californians how all that worked out for electricity.  One of the main reasons healthcare is cheaper overseas is that other countries regulate how much doctors and, more so, pharmaceutical companies can charge.  Since there is no regulation like that in the US, doctors and, more so, pharmaceutical companies rape the **** out of us.  There is a common misconception that free markets make everything work out for the consumer.  This wasn't the case for energy in CA, it wasn't the case for the financial market, and it is not the case for healthcare.  When an industry, as a whole, can rape consumers, they will even if there is competition amongst the players in the industry.


Goverment regulation is only thing that works for capitalism in some cases like electricity and water as no one else is either going to dig their own pipes or electric lines. Here pretty much the cost of moving electricity is regulated and has to be paid to owner of lines, but you can buy the electricity from anyone who sells it to you and this can affect prices.

I don't say that public health care works well, but alteast most people don't die because they can't pay for it, richer people tend to use private firms, but often get part of cost from state...
So I should add something useless here yes? Ok, ok...
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Offline ch_123

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #48 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 17:07:05 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;214078
You can't get more for less without someone else subsidizing it (Which means only a certain portion of the population gets the discount while the other portion pays for it). And chances are the funding for those socialistic health care systems is coming from nowhere (It's getting borrowed from places like China).


Well, if it's done wrong, yes. But you can apply worst-case scenarios to anything. A large part of current debt in the US, UK and other countries comes from the wars in the Middle East. Should the nation's army be abolished for being unsustainable financially?

Quote
The only way health care gets cheaper and retains its quality is if it's streamlined and made more efficient (Which competition amongst private institutions leads to). Goverment control over it actually leads to stifling of innovation within the industry.


Well, given that private healthcare in the US in unaffordable to huge swathes of the population, I don't really see how the government can make it any worse than it already is...

And yes, the government can streamline its healthcare system too. I don't see how these things are mutually exclusive.

Offline microsoft windows

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Should Obamacare be repealed?
« Reply #49 on: Wed, 18 August 2010, 19:14:53 »
Quote from: itlnstln;214087
Ask Californians how all that worked out for electricity.  One of the main reasons healthcare is cheaper overseas is that other countries regulate how much doctors and, more so, pharmaceutical companies can charge.  Since there is no regulation like that in the US, doctors and, more so, pharmaceutical companies rape the **** out of us.  There is a common misconception that free markets make everything work out for the consumer.  This wasn't the case for energy in CA, it wasn't the case for the financial market, and it is not the case for healthcare.  When an industry, as a whole, can rape consumers, they will even if there is competition amongst the players in the industry.


Capitalism, in the long run, is by far the best economic system. However, its major downside is the fact that there are ups and downs. And the downs can be steep and extremely painful (I know very much about them as many of my relatives grew up on the low end during the Depression).

Probably one of the best examples of capitalism gone mad is colleges at least here in the US. They're one of the biggest scams in the country. What many universities do is "double-staff": having lavishly-paid professors, but teaching assistants who do much of the work. Even with government support (A violation of capitalist theory), college tuition has more than doubled in the last generation. And the education people are getting out of that hasn't changed too much in that generation either (It did however change very much in the generation before, and even more so in the one before that. A relative of mine went to U-Conn in the 1920's.). Today, professors are getting raises and bonuses while many others in true private companies and small businesses are stuggling just to make it). At U-Conn, they got a basketball coach paid $2 million a year. And their professors got 5% "Cost of living" raises even though the cost of living has decreased.

Many people these days are indirectly forced into going to college and often end up with over $30,000 in debt since more and more jobs are recommending degrees and folks in schools these days have the "You have to go to college" attitude even though 30% of Americans have degrees.

Now, if true capitalism were practiced, the law of supply and demand would eventually cripple the colleges and they would either collapse or make cost cuts. The problem is though, it might take 150 years. Or 50.

And many of you guys haven't heard of it. Why? Because many of these higher-level folks at the colleges lobbied for Democrats. And Obama's a loyal Democrat. Kind of like oil companies and Republicans. Obama's all talking about fixing up (But really hurting) the health care system, but he has hardly said a word about this crisis, which is far more severe than the made-up health care "crisis". Our system is not perfect, but it is by far not a "crisis".

To sum it up: Politics is a dirty world.
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