Help, Das or XArmor, or what to choose?

[hcry4]

I wanted to get some feedback on the build quality of the das, I personally like it, and so does the Filco, but I wanted to know if the Das glossy cover its easy or not to scratch, I know it can get dirty easily, but if you are able to clean it and get it 100% back to new, then its no problem, as for the Filco, I think its good also, but the keycaps get shinny fast I heard, in the end, all keycaps get shinny with time, I doubt theres someone around that uses gloves to get on their computer, or such, and with use is normal.

 
Minor scratches/scuffs are more visible on the Das. Go for a Filco unless you really need the USB hub. You should probably just get replacement keys or get in on some of the group buys here to remedy the shiny keys.

[brkim1324]

What I'm after, is a 105 layout, not the 104, but is really hard and overpriced to get a 105 layout... I wonder if it's really worth it to pay 50$ to get the correct layout, or test and try out and option to remap a couple of keys and time to get used to a mod 104 layout to work as my 105...

The Das is great keyboard. But it's just the textures... I didn't throw or drop my keyboard, and kept constantly keep cleaning my keyboard. You really need to use your glass cleaner (the one comes with) for cleaning. I used paper towel with little water on it, and it gets minor scratches all over. Truthfully, it's not very visible in dim light. It is visible when you are in bright room, but what I'm saying is if it's a over $100 keyboard, it shouldn't have any of these problems. So it becomes irritating and annoying when you see those cosmetic damages. Other people have said this and I couldn't agree more. They should really fix those glossy textures. Looking cool just doesn't make it a great mechanical keyboard. It should have great build quality. I mean everything should be great you know..
I got my Filco tenkeyless like new used for $120, and I have to say.. it is just better. There's a reason why people keep insisting Filco over other brands such as Das or Leopolds. Filco is just little bit better in every way (in my opinion), and that's what makes the brand, Filco.
It would be best to try it out, but yes, it is quite expensive. I had the same concern before purchasing Das. What I did was, there's a full refund within 30 days after purchasing Das (from the official site). I tried it out first, and I was satisfied at the moment, but after 3 weeks, I decided to change it to Filco due to the annoying cosmetic concerns. So I'd recommend for go for Das, then if you don't like it you can just return it.
Hope this helps!

[Zet]

The Das is great keyboard. But it's just the textures... I didn't throw or drop my keyboard, and kept constantly keep cleaning my keyboard. You really need to use your glass cleaner (the one comes with) for cleaning. I used paper towel with little water on it, and it gets minor scratches all over. Truthfully, it's not very visible in dim light. It is visible when you are in bright room, but what I'm saying is if it's a over $100 keyboard, it shouldn't have any of these problems. So it becomes irritating and annoying when you see those cosmetic damages. Other people have said this and I couldn't agree more. They should really fix those glossy textures. Looking cool just doesn't make it a great mechanical keyboard. It should have great build quality. I mean everything should be great you know..
I got my Filco tenkeyless like new used for $120, and I have to say.. it is just better. There's a reason why people keep insisting Filco over other brands such as Das or Leopolds. Filco is just little bit better in every way (in my opinion), and that's what makes the brand, Filco.
It would be best to try it out, but yes, it is quite expensive. I had the same concern before purchasing Das. What I did was, there's a full refund within 30 days after purchasing Das (from the official site). I tried it out first, and I was satisfied at the moment, but after 3 weeks, I decided to change it to Filco due to the annoying cosmetic concerns. So I'd recommend for go for Das, then if you don't like it you can just return it.
Hope this helps!

Hi again brkim, you are totally right and it seems like the thing to do, that time would give me a good idea also if I'm gonig to be able to get used to the 104 layout, but the problem is, my cousin is the one traveling for a week to USA, get me the keyboard and return to South America, I doubt theres a 'free' way to return the keyboard if I don't like it from South America, paying the shipment and time it will take to get back to Das hands... no... I think it's too risky.
Still, that information you gave me about the scratches due papel towel give me a good idea of how the glossy plastic is, so it kinda turns me down on it. I could remember to use only the one that it comes with, but if just wet paper towel does that, it means it's really scratchy for my personal taste... I don't want a "tank" like SteelSeries mention about the 7G, but I want something solid, and Filco seems like the way to go right? by the way, the Filco brand is japanese? stuff made in japan is so much better than anywhere in the world, I really trust on the quality of japanese made electronics/cars specially.

[brkim1324]

but I want something solid, and Filco seems like the way to go right? by the way, the Filco brand is japanese? stuff made in japan is so much better than anywhere in the world, I really trust on the quality of japanese made electronics/cars specially.

Yes, Filco is made from Japan. Leopolds make great keyboards too, almost same as Filco, and some say it's better. Leopolds is from Korea. All the Asia products are always great (except.. yea... China.. sadly..) The boards are actually manufactured from Taiwan too. When you type Das on it, it really does feel great. The tactile feedback is great. Personally I like the feedback from Das more than Filco, it just makes my hand type more without getting fast fatigue. But it's just the build quality of the board!! So I had to return it.. If Filco seems too expensive, you can look for leopolds too. But I believe Leopolds 104 is kinda hard to get in US... only tekneyless in blue and brown.
In the look wise, Das looks cooler cause of the glossy and bigger board. But the white filming was also on the side of my keys too, which would require you to get a qtip to clean it... I don't know why, but it seems that specific material is like that in certain atmosphere conditions, where my room is like. My filco doesn't do that, but my other membrane Qsenn keyboard did that too, so it just the material that it goes crazy.
And yea, the fragileness of the keyboard really turned me down too, but I loved the keyboard so it really hesitated me when I returned the keyboard (I still have the pictures though lol). If you are looking for something solid, feels firm, Filco does better job than Das. Doesn't mean Das doesn't feel firm, but I compared  when I held the Das and Filco, looked in the sides, and Filco just feel firmer. Hope you are satisfied when you get your mechanical keyboard! (cause I know how that feels!)

[Zet]

brkim,
The filco will be then, I really appreciate your input on this. I'll post pictures of it when it arrives, I still have to wait for my job payment on 15th may, and then a week for it to arrive so... I'll have to be patient.

Thanks for everyones' help!

[brkim1324]

The filco will be then, I really appreciate your input on this. I'll post pictures of it when it arrives, I still have to wait for my job payment on 15th may, and then a week for it to arrive so... I'll have to be patient.

You're welcome I will see you on GH!

[ekw808]

wow this sums up how i feel about Xarmor........i want a backlit mechanical keyboard and am still in the decision, I really wanted a Xarmor 9L-S but ive read many mixed reviews about the product, and its various alias's, and on top the website looks like a highschool project. Appearances are everything, and although Xarmor's keyboards are appealing, everything else about Xarmor screams get a deck legend or wait for mionix.

Bad customer service is the one thing people dont want to deal with when paying a premium for their product.
Money is good to make life easier, which is why more money is paid for the keyboard but it is kind of sad because Dell prolly has better customer service for a $30 dollar product then Xarmor would for a $4,000 product. Im sure Xarmor deals with a ton of BS from customers expecting this obligation from them, but dont make it public....ever and keep your composure.

[The Solutor]

Bad customer service is the one thing people dont want to deal with when paying a premium for their product.

That's the point, you can consider xarmor one of the cheapest mechanical keyboard, it is costly if compared with rubber domes, but is still the cheapest keyboard of its category.

If you are looking for a premium price you have to look filco, leopold, das and so on...

[ekw808]

aside from deck 2nd most expensive backlit mech keyboard....

[foliolio]

Isn't BW Ultimate more expensive

[BucklingSpring]

Isn't BW Ultimate more expensive

I'd buy a used Deck over a new BWU or XArmor.

So far the only two real complaints I have against the XArmor are
-Keycaps made of cheap/weak plastic (known to break easily if removed)
-Poor stabilizers of the large keys (Actuation feels significantly different when pressing them off center)

[The Solutor]

-Keycaps made of cheap/weak plastic (known to break easily if removed)

 
This is absolutely not true.

Is not spreading urban legends that a new potential user can helped.

-Poor stabilizers of the large keys (Actuation feels significantly different when pressing them off center)

Stabilizers are exactly the same as most of the costar style stabilizers, and this is one of the points where the U9BL wins hands down over black widow.

Then if one have no idea about how a large key should be removed will likely break it, as in any other kb costar style stabilizer.

The only weak point of the u9BL is the not retained backlit level.

[BucklingSpring]

This is absolutely not true.

Stabilizers are exactly the same as most of the costar style stabilizers, and this is one of the points where the U9BL wins hands down over black widow.

 
LoL I think you are taking me for an idiot.

Few people have reported breaking XArmor keycaps while removing them. I didn't break any but I noticed increased wobbleling since I got the keyboard. Which lead me to think that the plastic is too soft.

I already stated that the 2011 U9BL-S was superior to the BWU.

Pictures worth 1000 of words. Here's a Deck VS XArmor shift key photo shoot.

This is what I call XArmor weak stabilizer crap:

Have you seen the gauge of the metal bar on this thing? It's so small I would not use them as paper clips. Then what the f is this tiny little piece of sh!t insert to hold the stabilizer?

You think you can look me in the face and tell me this is not cheap plastic without laughing?

Deck vs XArmor keycaps... Plastic quality difference is obvious (Deck on top, XArmor under)


Now just compare the bases. Again Deck on top and more cheap thin XArmor plastic under.



Hugh... Close ups are gross. Sorry for the hairy shots...

I hope I will be able to put this ridicule insert back in place without breaking anything.

To the OP - Go for a DAS... The more I look at my XArmor, the more I think it sucks. I will copy this post in Ripster's Another One Bites the Dust thread.

[BucklingSpring]

Maybe I'm wrong here, but other than the keycap itself, that looks exactly the same as my Filco, and the Cherry parts I salvaged off of my POS board.  I think the stabilizer and clip are Cherry parts.

Interesting… You are probing me to do the same on my Filco and see how it compares.
The biggest problem on the XArmor is how loose the stabilizer bar is when attached to the base. The bar moves in the clips and the clips are also moving on the board.

Be right back. :-)

EDIT: Confirmed BUT…

On the Filco, the clips holding the stabilizer to the board are firmly attached and the stabilizer bar doesn’t move in all directions like on the XArmor.

On the Filco, the little inserts seam of better quality (a bit thicker)

[The Solutor]

LoL I think you are taking me for an idiot.

I'm not used to judge the people from a key sabilizer.


But tath said the Xarmor stabilizer are exactly the same as any costar style keyboard, period (second time I write it)
 


You can break an Xarmor stabilizer EXACTLY as you can break a Filco stabilizer, they aren't perfect, as are not perfect the cherry style ones.

But saying that Xarmor sucks because the stabilizers is MISINFORMATION, period.

Xarmor keys are built well, I have to say BETTER, than the ones of most cherry boards, they are built with a different kind of plastic for a reason, they need to be transparent, they need to be painted, they need to be coated.

Filco produce keyboards since the time when the polar bears were used to swim on the Mediterranean sea, and have still to learn how to build a decent legend, and no one criticize it.

Xarmor still have to sell its 400th backlit keyboards and everyone complaints, just because complaining abut xarmor is considered cool in a forum of "geeks".

That's the truth.

[BucklingSpring]

But saying that Xarmor sucks because the stabilizers is MISINFORMATION, period.

LoL - Cloning the design doesn't make it equal in quality.

I just pulled out the shift key from my Filco and the Stabilizer was "Stable". The inserts in the keycap (to hold the bar) were also bigger than the XArmor.

Jeez are you on XArmor payroll?

I have absolutely no reason to bash or promote the XArmor. I simply pulled the key and compared.
XArmor large keys stabilizer are a mere imitation of what is used by Filco. I'll be nice enough not to call it a caricature.
I don't think XArmor are built with the same tolerance as Filcos. That's maybe why XArmor parts are so loose.

It's a free world, you can say anything you want about the XArmor.
I took mine apart and objectively compared it to a Deck and a Filco.
The conclusion was a bit disappointing.

[The Solutor]

       LoL - Cloning the design doesn't make it equal in quality.

Cloning what ?

Is not rocket science, nor classified miltary secret, they are just keyboards

My TI99 in 1982 had the same stabilizers. so who cloned what ?

Jeez are you on XArmor payroll?

If all the makers of thing I publicity appreciate were send me a dollar, I was in the firsts positions of fortune 500.

I just dont like the biased positions, and it's evident that here there's an huge bias against Xarmor, and I'm not speaking specifically about your opinion.

It's something like the europeans that consider a thing for pussies the automatic gears.

I consider it just handy, exactly as I consider handy the backlight on  keyboards

[BucklingSpring]

I just dont like the biased positions

Look for yourself Thomas (Photoshopped version of one of Ripster's Picture)



1- The loop is thicker than the XArmor's
2- The insert is much longer than the XArmor's
3- The clips are properly secured/attached to the board (as opposed to loose in all directions on the XArmor)

This is no biased position... It's all based on facts. cheap, cheap, cheap, 3 times in a row.

How do you support your statements?

EDIT: There might also be a #4 with the bar itself. The one on Ripster's picture seams bigger than the one from my XArmor.

[BucklingSpring]

I just dont like the biased positions

Look for yourself Thomas (Photoshoped version of one of Ripster Picture)



1- The loop is thicker than the XArmor's
2- The insert is much longer than the XArmor's
3- The clips are properly attached with the board (as opposed to loose in all directions on the XArmor)

It's no biased positions.

[The Solutor]

Look for yourself Thomas (Photoshopped version of one of Ripster's Picture)

Show Image

1- The loop is thicker than the XArmor's
2- The insert is much longer than the XArmor's
3- The clips are properly secured/attached to the board (as opposed to loose in all directions on the XArmor)
.

 

So they aren't "cloned" after all.

Obviously they aren't they are the same pieces but they aren't cloned.

They works, they works well, and this is enough.

cheap, cheap, cheap, 3 times in a row

Is a problem for you if a fully featured keyboard cost less than a basic one ?

For me it's an advantage, i bought the u9 because it's a good backlit keyboard, not to be subscribed in some exclusive club, and yuse it just to type not to play baseball with it, but as you said we are in a free world...

[BucklingSpring]

So they aren't "cloned" after all.

They works, they works well, and this is enough.

Is a problem for you if a fully featured keyboard cost less than a basic one ?.

Sorry I said cloned, maybe mimicking was a more appropriate term.

The stabilizers work well brand new, but for how long? I predict not for long since they are already showing signs of fatigue after two months.

As for the price, these are no 60$ keyboards. The Deck Legend only costs 34$ more.

Assuming everything else keeps working. The stabilizers are the weakest link of the XArmor and that's where it's going to fail first. Much sooner than what the MX switches are capable of.

Anyway, mark my words and lets talk in couple of years or as soon as your XArmor fail, whatever comes first.

[The Solutor]

Luckily the mech keyboards have this great advantage above the rubberdomes: no is not durability (which is debatable at least for alps and cherry boards) the advantage is that they can be easily fixed, and the spare parts are widely standardized.

The day a stabilizer will fail on my xarmor, I will simply fix it, maybe spending one or two euro.

That said, as I already wrote, is likely that in the next two years, the backlit mech keyboars will become more mainstream, and is likely that Deck or not, Xarmor or not, we will buy a better keyboard, no matter if the older one is working or not.

So I think that spending  50$ more today, to get a worst keyboard just because is supposedly more durable, is simply a stupid move, just a personal opinion.

[BucklingSpring]

Luckily the mech keyboards have this great advantage above the rubberdomes ... the advantage is that they can be easily fixed, and the spare parts are widely standardized.

The day a stabilizer will fail on my xarmor, I will simply fix it, maybe spending one or two euro.

That said, as I already wrote, is likely that in the next two years, the backlit mech keyboars will become more mainstream, and is likely that Deck or not, Xarmor or not, we will buy a better keyboard, no matter if the older one is working or not.

So I think that spending  50$ more today, to get a worst keyboard just because is supposedly more durable, is simply a stupid move, just a personal opinion.

 
Ok I agree with pretty much all the above except for the spending more for worst. The Deck doesn't look as good and it got a bigger footprint  other than that, it's better in all fronts. I'm one of these GHers who spends way too much money on keyboards and I already own more than what I can wear. But I'm sure there are guys and galls out there who would enjoy buying a single keyboard that is going to last until computers no longer accept the connection, even with an adaptor.

I actually like the idea of replacing parts. With better inserts, clips and stabilizer bars, the XArmor would probably be another animal.

I never removed what I call the stabilizer clip from the board (#3 on the picture). Is it easy to do?


Finally where do you get good repalcement parts for inserts, stabilizer bar and clips?

[The Solutor]

Ok I agree with pretty much all the above except for the spending more for worst. The Deck doesn't look as good and it got a bigger footprint other than that, it's better in all fronts.

All fronts ?

Its ugly, it's large like a model M from 1985, it has those Prince of Persia like fonts, it lacks the HUB, it lacks a decent wrist rest, you need a solder to switch from USB to PS/2 and (afaik) it comes with no accessories. Couple of LEDs are also connected in series and this will made complicate the led modding, specially when one wants to use different colors for different keys, the flat style arrangement of its keys is also less confortable.

And likely I forgot something.

There isn't any backlit keyboard that can considered perfect nowadays. And surely Deck isn't closer to perfection than Xarmor.

But I'm sure there are guys and galls out there who would enjoy buying a single keyboard that is going to last until computers no longer accept the connection, even with an adaptor.

A cherry board is not a keyboard for life, specially if tactile, specially if baclit.

Switches will become uneven, and some will fail, LEDs also, no matter what QC did, its just statistics, when you have 109 LEDs, 106 switches (which in turn are made by a number of pieces) the chances to have a failed piece (or a piece that will fail well before the others) are way higher than other type of boards.

The number of strokes that a single switch can accomplish is just misleading, so if you want a keyboard you don't mind to fix or replace you should look to a model M, a topre or even to any other good rubber dome keyboard.

[BucklingSpring]

All fronts ?

Its ugly, it's large like a model M from 1985, it has those Prince of Persia like fonts, it lacks the HUB, it lacks a decent wrist rest, you need a solder to switch from USB to PS/2 and (afaik) it comes with no accessories. Couple of LEDs are also connected in series and this will made complicate the led modding, specially when one wants to use different colors for different keys, the flat style arrangement of its keys is also less confortable.

And likely I forgot something.

There isn't any backlit keyboard that can considered perfect nowadays. And surely Deck isn't closer to perfection than Xarmor.



A cherry board is not a keyboard for life, specially if tactile, specially if baclit.

Switches will become uneven, and some will fail, LEDs also, no matter what QC did, its just statistics, when you have 109 LEDs, 106 switches (which in turn are made by a number of pieces) the chances to have a failed piece (or a piece that will fail well before the others) are way higher than other type of boards.

The number of strokes that a single switch can accomplish is just misleading, so if you want a keyboard you don't mind to fix or replace you should look to a model M, a topre or even to any other good rubber dome keyboard.

 
Thank God the XArmor doesn't have a built-in ashtray and Hide-A-Bed, because that would be a really unfair competition.

I already said the Deck is ugly and bulky. For the rest, I'm not looking for a car dash or a Christmas tree. It's just a keyboard.

You seam to prefer multi functions Swiss army knives over specilized tools. Whatever turns you on man. That's fine.
I'm more of a specialized tool guy. I prefer better quality on the primary function over bells, whistles and other nice to have features.

But that's just me.

[The Solutor]

I bought Xarmor because I need what it offer.

If you don't need the retroillumination why you bought it, why you are debating about deck or xarmor ?

It's something like a vegan that argue if beefsteaks are better than hamburgers, or I miss something ?

[BucklingSpring]

It's something like a vegan that argue if beefsteaks are better than hamburgers, or I miss something ?

Uh... Are we talking U9BL here?

[Zet]

Hi guys, I hate to interrupt your war right now but, where can I find instructions, or can any of you provide on how to correctly remove the bigger keycaps (space, enter, shift, etc)? I'll be getting the keyboard soon and I don't want to mess with the stabilizers or anything. Also, if I remove all the other keys but this, I should be still able to clean the keyboard and access that areas without removing the bigger keys right?

Thanks!
Zet

[BucklingSpring]

I found a way to get a Filco with 105 key layout,

 

brkim,
The filco will be then, I really appreciate your input on this. I'll post pictures of it when it arrives, I still have to wait for my job payment on 15th may, and then a week for it to arrive so... I'll have to be patient.

Thanks for everyones' help!

Specialized quality tool...Good Call! The way to go :-)

Unless you want to make your keyboard CSI Clean, you don't need to remove the keycaps.


Vacuum cleaner/dust busters or compressed gas duster can do a good job.
Taking off the whole keyboard cover will also provide a better access to the surface.

Then if you have no other choice... Search the forum, I'm sure someone posted the procedure with pics. Ripster with his photograpic memory can probably show you the link.

[Zet]

Thanks for your advice BulckingSpring then if there's no need to get it I'll not worry. Still, I'll have to get, separately the keycap puller, is the one at sale on amazon good enouth?

[BucklingSpring]

Thanks for your advice BulckingSpring then if there's no need to get it I'll not worry. Still, I'll have to get, separately the keycap puller, is the one at sale on amazon good enouth?

What are you looking at?
The two main types are

And


Never used the two loops type. I'm happy with the small plastic finger ring above.