Author Topic: Fun with AEKII -mix 'n match fest  (Read 26789 times)

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Offline wellington1869

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Fun with AEKII -mix 'n match fest
« on: Wed, 24 December 2008, 18:22:19 »
Got my Apple Extended Keyboard II today, to be used as a donor board for its sliders (which have rubber dampers on them, reducing bottoming and topping "clack"). My plan was to use these sliders on one of my other alps boards in order to create a quieter alps board.

First the pics, then results of slider-swapping experiments.

The board arrived with a key missing and a crack in the case, but what did I expect for $13 shipped? There was another surprise: I was expecting clicky white alps. The alps were white -- but not clicky! They felt exactly like black alps (and are nearly 100% compatible with black alps in all components). I cant help but wonder if someone had harvested the click leaf out of these already (I mean, who ever heard of clickless white alps?). [update: our wiki says aekII is supposed to have cream/orange/yellow alps, not white; and the former are supposed to be "light clicky, light tactile". But these are not clicky at all as far as I can see, so I'm still a bit confused about that, but no matter.]



Label on the back



The sliders though still did have their rubber dampers installed, which is what I was mainly interested in.



Another view.



Compare sliders: Mk96 "white alps" slider is on left, AEKII rubber damper slider is on right.



Click leaf (actually tactile-leaf) from the AEKII. Is nearly identical to the leaf from black alps (dell at101w). The only difference I can see is the small hole.



Compare springs. From left to right: black alps (dell at101w)/ white "alps" (mk96)/ "white" alps (AEKII)/ Gray strongman (smk85). Note that each is slightly different.



The top part of the housing on the AEKii switches was nearly identical to the black alps top part from the dell at101w. Both of them have "alps" stamped into them.

Interchangeability notes: Can you put the dampers into any other alps board? Short answer: only into some!

-The mk96 and the smk85 both have the "double slot" switch (and a double slot upper casing). The at101w and the aekii both have the single slot switch (and the single slot casing). Basically: it appears you cannot switch anything between single and double slot switches. Not even these sliders! The upper housing refuses to fit if you try to cram it in.

-This meant that the mk96 and the smk85 were immediately out of the experiment. There was no way the AEKii sliders (or the click leafs) were going to go into them.

-This left the dell at101w.  I was able to transfer the AEKii slider to it (into its upper housing part). (Was not able to transfer click leaf! Even though they look identical. There must be some minute difference, probably on the braces on the click leaf). This also means the upper housings were slightly different.

Results: What did the dell at101w with aekii dampers sound like?

Well, hear for yourself :)  The recording is three slow regular black alps presses, followed by three with the aekii dampers installed, followed by a few faster keystrokes regular, then faster keystrokes dampened. The difference may be more noticeable in person but you can get a sense of the difference.

Also, with the damper-sliders installed, the black alps were noticeably smoother when compared to the regular black sliders. The result was a fairly quiet black alps switch, with the bottoming and topping clacks reduced by more than 50%. (I wanted to transfer over the springs too, cuz the aek springs have higher resistance that I like, but the springs make strange "scrunchy" noises when installed, so I put the dell's original black alps springs back in).

Conclusion: I like it. I'm going to keep this new "quieter, smoother" Dell version as my (relatively) 'quiet' board. And its definitely smoother and definitely quieter than regular black alps.
« Last Edit: Sat, 29 August 2009, 22:18:10 by wellington1869 »

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Offline bhtooefr

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« Reply #1 on: Wed, 24 December 2008, 20:43:32 »
The reason they're not click leafs is because they aren't Alps whites, they're Alps creams.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #2 on: Wed, 24 December 2008, 22:49:18 »
Quote from: bhtooefr;16090
The reason they're not click leafs is because they aren't Alps whites, they're Alps creams.


Is that what it is? lol! Do any AEKII's come with white alps?

Our wiki says that cream/orange alps in AEKII should be "light clicky, light tactile", but these are definitely not clicky at all (and they really look white to me as opposed to cream, but maybe thats because I've never seen a white one!)

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #3 on: Wed, 24 December 2008, 23:03:00 »
Update on the modded dell-with-dampers:  I really like it. Its definitely an improved black alps board. Its not only quieter, its also smoother.

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Offline sandy55

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« Reply #4 on: Wed, 24 December 2008, 23:11:50 »
If I remember correct, Apple Extended Keyboard II is available in 3 flavors, white with dumper, cream with dumper
and Pink(rare). All non-click tactile feel.

Good source for real click leaves are, for example, Focus FK-2001 and Silitec SK-00A2 ( usually have a logo
"WIN" at the upper right  ( Magitronic brand is available too ).
These K/B are floating around on eBay relatively cheap. Windows-key is a bad sign so
do not go for them.

FYI, Apple Extended is available in Orange and Pink, both tactile. GOOD source for
ALPS tactile switches.  
Of course you can use it "as it is" if you want.

sandy

Offline Chloe

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« Reply #5 on: Wed, 24 December 2008, 23:26:38 »
I've seen the Apple Extended Keyboard II described as clicky on this forum and elsewhere. If they don't have a bump on the leaf I wouldn't describe them as clicky.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #6 on: Wed, 24 December 2008, 23:43:32 »
Quote from: Chloe;16096
I've seen the Apple Extended Keyboard II described as clicky on this forum and elsewhere. If they don't have a bump on the leaf I wouldn't describe them as clicky.


exactly, me too. Thats why I was expecting a click, I guess.  These had a tactile bump but no click (exactly like the black alps in the dell).

Quote

Good source for real click leaves are, for example, Focus FK-2001 and Silitec SK-00A2 ( usually have a logo
"WIN" at the upper right ( Magitronic brand is available too ).


I'd be interested in the click leaf in those (and in whether they could be crammed into the dell at101w black alps housing).  But it looks like I'm going to get a TP2 soon anyway (clicky strongmans, which I like a lot) so I'll have my clicky board either way. (of course I'd like to put damper-sliders into the TP2 too! :) )

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Offline bhtooefr

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« Reply #7 on: Wed, 24 December 2008, 23:48:53 »
I think a lot of it may be people being confused as to what clicky really is. The tactile sensation is definitely there, and is definitely more pronounced than a rubber dome board. And, with bottoming and topping clack, the keyboards do make a fair bit of noise.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #8 on: Wed, 24 December 2008, 23:59:40 »
Quote from: bhtooefr;16100
I think a lot of it may be people being confused as to what clicky really is. The tactile sensation is definitely there, and is definitely more pronounced than a rubber dome board. And, with bottoming and topping clack, the keyboards do make a fair bit of noise.



ya I think a lot of people refer to the "clack" as the click...
so  maybe AEKII never had a click...

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Offline Chloe

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« Reply #9 on: Thu, 25 December 2008, 00:26:35 »
It could be. Maybe the wiki should be updated. The ALPS section is a bit of a mess and would really benefit from the Drupal wiki.

Offline sandy55

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« Reply #10 on: Thu, 25 December 2008, 01:49:00 »
totally agree with bhtooehfr.

It's very difficult to read lowendmac.com article because of advertising pop-up, but
thru what I read, most possibly he might mixe up click and bottoming/topping.

But at the same time I have to admit that a few of tactile switch gives very (really very )
small clicky tone occasionally.  
Some may say the tone depends on bending degrees of side wings of a tactile leaf and
the other may say it depends on shape of the two-fork edge of a leaf.
I don't know the truce.
If I can get clicky tone modifying a leaf spring, it's impossible to modify whole leaves
in same condition.  It's better to keep away from this issue to keep boards safe.

BTW, forgot to mention about an another version of EX-II. Mistumi white tactile sw  is
also available..

Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #11 on: Thu, 25 December 2008, 03:47:31 »
Sandy, good to see you here, welcome.

Quote from: wellington
I mean, who ever heard of clickless white alps?

My Toshiba T5200 keyboard has linear (non-tactile, non-clicky) white Alps. They're white, not cream.

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Offline alpslover

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« Reply #12 on: Thu, 25 December 2008, 07:21:17 »
Quote from: wellington1869;16098
exactly, me too. Thats why I was expecting a click, I guess.  These had a tactile bump but no click (exactly like the black alps in the dell).


'clickiness' is relative.  to someone who has only ever used rubber dome keyboards, a dell at101 would probably be classified as 'clicky'.  and they would probably not distinguish between the 'click' (sound of the switch) and the 'clack' (sound of the keys bottoming/topping).

Offline sandy55

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« Reply #13 on: Thu, 25 December 2008, 09:56:53 »
Quote from: lowpoly;16122
Sandy, good to see you here, welcome.

My Toshiba T5200 keyboard has linear (non-tactile, non-clicky) white Alps. They're white, not cream.


Hi lowpoly,
Your modification is really exciting. I'm almost blind at programing or electronics so your reports about mod are really exciting to read.

Actually your T-5200 has ALPS linear switch. and it is a rare sample as an AT compatible keyboard which has ALPS made white/linear sw.  
We can see many ALPS made switches  here including another type of white/linear.
But I think most of people in this forum call this kind of switch as "ALPS switch" in narrow term.
And among such narrow termed "ALPS switches", white/linear is not available.
Narrow termed ALPS switch in linear flavor can be tasted on Zenith ZKB-2.

sandy

Offline iMav

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Fun with AEKII -mix 'n match fest
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 25 December 2008, 11:23:03 »
The majority of the wiki info has been supplied by members.  If something is wrong, definitely correct it!!

Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #15 on: Thu, 25 December 2008, 11:26:40 »
Quote from: sandy55
Hi lowpoly,
Your modification is really exciting. I'm almost blind at programing or electronics so your reports about mod are really exciting to read.

Actually your T-5200 has ALPS linear switch. and it is a rare sample as an AT compatible keyboard which has ALPS made white/linear sw.
We can see many ALPS made switches here including another type of white/linear.
But I think most of people in this forum call this kind of switch as "ALPS switch" in narrow term.
And among such narrow termed "ALPS switches", white/linear is not available.
Narrow termed ALPS switch in linear flavor can be tasted on Zenith ZKB-2.

sandy
Thanks for the clarification and links.

Two more differences beside switch leaf construction (that might have been mentioned in the text):

The linear white Alps switch has a wire bridge. I think that's not common on later switches?

It also has a considerably lighter touch than the green Alps in the Zenith 'board.

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Offline andb

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« Reply #16 on: Thu, 25 December 2008, 13:26:26 »
Quote from: sandy55;16128
Narrow termed ALPS switch in linear flavor can be tasted on Zenith ZKB-2.
The ZKB-2 definitely is a linear switch. I just finished restoring one and have to say the ALPS yellows in it feel great, the keyboard is like a single solid piece of metal. There are greens only on the keys with lights - CAPS, NUM and SCROLL locks. Space is an ALPS grey. Since the switches are on a metal base, its doesn't flex at all. It may replace my Model M on the desk for a longer period of time.

I swapped in some white clicky alps from an old Nan Tan onto another ZKB-2 to see if I like the switch enough to buy a filco with them. I'm not so excited by the Alps whites but I'll try it a bit longer and see what its like over time.

But back to the AEK-IIs, are the switches mounted directly to the circuitboard only or to a metal plate first? If its a metal plate and they are firm, Im thinking these could be great keyboards to buy yellowed and RIT dye black. Ok, the adapter adds a bit to the price, but these could be a real sleeper hit.

About the wiki, I think the "ALPS style" keys are a good place to try to make some progress. I'm still puzzled about the Strongman and Zero (or whatever is in the Filco) variants (I feel like I'm in some X-files show with these names flying around). Chloe, would you help me a bit getting some ALPS stuff on the Drupal wiki? I can write a lot of it up, it would help if you can check and supplement. Getting the information together is the most important step, even if the wiki is done later in some other software we can always migrate the pages easily.  

Just above Ive read about different plunger types, didnt know about that either...

Offline Chloe

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« Reply #17 on: Thu, 25 December 2008, 13:28:10 »
Quote from: andb;16134
I'm still puzzled about the Strongman and Zero (or whatever is in the Filco) variants (I feel like I'm in some X-files show with these names flying around).


Strong Man and XM are both simplified/fake ALPS.

Offline sandy55

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« Reply #18 on: Thu, 25 December 2008, 18:55:22 »
AEK-II has metal plate.  ALPS switch ( in narrow termed ) is designed to be used on a metal plate.
white/linear on T5200 and other predecessors are mounted on PCB directly.
ALPS Leaf sw is available in both way ( mainly on metal plate).

to  lowpoly
jumper hole is ready in Cherry MX.  ALPS leaf has jumper too.
ALPS leaf switches were available only in k/b by IBM JP.   IBM PS/2 P70 & P75 ( model No. 8577 )
are exceptional case, but anyway these were actually made by IBM japan.
I may introduce ALPS leaf sw if time allows.

to andb
ZKB-2 is the first k/B I loved aside from IBM BS 'board.   If I had not touched the 'board, I might stay
with 5576-A01 and M.... and might not be here.

sandy

Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #19 on: Sat, 27 December 2008, 08:25:15 »
Quote from: sandy55;16169
IBM PS/2 P70 & P75 ( model No. 8577 )
are exceptional case, but anyway these were actually made by IBM japan.
I may introduce ALPS leaf sw if time allows.

I'd appreciate that and I'm sure I'm not the only one. :)

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #20 on: Sat, 27 December 2008, 23:27:32 »
update 2: I took the black alps leafs out of the dell at101w (ie, in addition to installing the aekii sliders-dampers). I like it a lot. Its basically now what the black cherry smk should have been - both are linear, quiet, soft, very smooth -- but unlike the black cherries, the right amount of spring resistance :) Its defniitely my 'quiet board' now.
Having a hell of a time removing the spacebar on the dell at101w though. Any tips? Do I have to make my own key remover with wire? Sticking two screwdrivers under it almost dented the plastic frame around the keys.

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Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #21 on: Sun, 28 December 2008, 08:57:02 »
Quote from: wellington1869;16253
Having a hell of a time removing the spacebar on the dell at101w though. Any tips? Do I have to make my own key remover with wire? Sticking two screwdrivers under it almost dented the plastic frame around the keys.
If the case is removed you should be able to pull the space bar with your hands. I use a keycap puller for Alps boards though. Some keys need considerable force. If there's a level wire make sure all plastic connectors are firmly seated. Esp. those in the keycap if those go into the dishwasher.

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #22 on: Sun, 28 December 2008, 14:36:25 »
Quote from: lowpoly;16267
If the case is removed you should be able to pull the space bar with your hands. I use a keycap puller for Alps boards though. Some keys need considerable force. If there's a level wire make sure all plastic connectors are firmly seated. Esp. those in the keycap if those go into the dishwasher.


Thanks lowP. Maybe I'll take the frame off. Tried a keycap puller but the spacebar is way too wide. Dont want to damage it after all this work, lol.

[update: took the frame off on the dell at101w (6 screws, four tabs to press, thats it. very obvious and no mysteries). The spacebar came off easily after that. Silenced it too with dampers and some silicon grease where the stability bar was rattling, and now the whole board is silky smooth and whisper quiet, like black cherries (without the overly stiff spring). Its pretty great.]

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Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #23 on: Tue, 30 December 2008, 15:05:38 »
My AEKII came in today... FAIL.  It had these wannabe Alps switches that had both a white casing and white slider.  You can't take off the top of the case without prying the entire switch off the PCB to get ot the underside.  Once in the switch, it was remotely Alps-like, but since the slider did not have any dampers, they would be useless for my mod.  I'm buying a Logitech Wave.  I tried one at the store the other day, and it has a nice layout and some nice domes.  I'm not buying yet another 'board for this mod.  >(


Offline Chloe

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« Reply #24 on: Tue, 30 December 2008, 15:09:12 »
I think they are Mitsumi switches. Some Apple Extended II M3501 came with these instead of ALPS:
http://www7.ocn.ne.jp/~hisao/image/ext2m.htm

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #25 on: Tue, 30 December 2008, 15:34:15 »
Those are the ones.  I can't seem to win on this thing.  I am probably going to sell the Evolution, and maybe buy something with Cherry browns.  It's a shame, because I really want a 'board with a split layout.


Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #26 on: Tue, 30 December 2008, 15:44:04 »
How do the Mitsumis feel?

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Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #27 on: Tue, 30 December 2008, 15:55:40 »
They're OK at best.  They sort of feel like cheap Alps.  When I took one of the switches off (destroying the 'board in the process :) ), everything from the plastic of the casing to the spring to the slider and leaf were all less well made than the Alps.  They sort of felt fragile.


Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #28 on: Tue, 30 December 2008, 17:55:26 »
Quote from: itlnstln;16684
They're OK at best.  They sort of feel like cheap Alps.  When I took one of the switches off (destroying the 'board in the process :) ), everything from the plastic of the casing to the spring to the slider and leaf were all less well made than the Alps.  They sort of felt fragile.


so no dampers on them at all? how bizarre.

hows the logitech wave?

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Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #29 on: Wed, 31 December 2008, 11:34:49 »
I haven't bought one yet, but the one I tried at the store felt kinda like Alps blacks.  They were quite light to the touch, and they had a tactile bump right about ni the same place as the black Alps.  I might make that my temporary ergo 'board for awhile until I figure out what my next real move is going to be.  I am thinking hard about a Filco (Cherry browns), but I don't want to buy one and not like it because of RSI.  I might get a Compaq MX11800 when I find one cheap on ebay and give that a whirl to see if I might like the Filco.


Offline Chloe

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« Reply #30 on: Wed, 31 December 2008, 16:36:41 »
I tried this with clicky ALPS using stems from an Apple M3501 to see if it would improve the clack. It did remove it, but it seemed to take all of the fun out of the switch. The click was still there but it seemed softened, perhaps because I was only hearing the leaf click. I think I prefer white ALPS as they are.

Wellington, do you find the black ALPS are lighter than the cream ALPS?

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #31 on: Wed, 31 December 2008, 17:25:14 »
Quote from: Chloe;16827
I tried this with clicky ALPS using stems from an Apple M3501 to see if it would improve the clack. It did remove it, but it seemed to take all of the fun out of the switch. The click was still there but it seemed softened, perhaps because I was only hearing the leaf click. I think I prefer white ALPS as they are.


hey chloe, this is an experiment I'd like to try myself too. Thanks for uploading the audio file.  Without having it in front of me I think I would probably like it softened like that since I'm always pursuing a 'medium' volume, lol.


Quote

Wellington, do you find the black ALPS are lighter than the cream ALPS?


The black alps are lighter by just a little bit, but this is so more because the black alps use a lighter spring. (they use an almost identical click leaf, but the spring is different). The black alps spring is lighter than the cream alps spring (at least on my aekII vs my dell at101w, it was so).

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #32 on: Thu, 15 January 2009, 06:12:06 »
How to turn your dell black alps into white alps: see attached pics. It sounds pretty good actually! And works well as a quick mod if you want to bring an audible click to your dell at101w black alps board.

Basically with a needlenose pliers, bend two tabs on the click leaf - and presto - the leaf now clicks.

The click is not as loud as say mk96 'white alps', but its there and it sounds like a slightly lighter version of white alps.  On my board I now have these along with the aekii dampers, so I now have the click but no topping/bottoming clacks.  Its great.  

I'll attach a sound clip here when I get a chance.

------------------------------------





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Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #33 on: Thu, 15 January 2009, 06:35:34 »
Quote
On my board I now have these along with the aekii dampers, so I now have the click but no topping/bottoming clacks.

:cool:

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Offline lal

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« Reply #34 on: Thu, 15 January 2009, 07:39:17 »
Quote from: wellington1869;18264
How to turn your dell black alps into white alps: see attached pics.


Wow, that is simple.  I might try that when I get the Dell I recently bought.
BS: Customizer, Model Ms; Alps: CSK-2101, FK-2002, AT-101 (SGI & Dell), MCK-860, FKBN87Z/EB; Cherry: Poker X, FKBN87MC/EB, WY60, G80-3000, G84-4100, TDV 5010

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #35 on: Thu, 15 January 2009, 08:41:13 »
This is the major idfferenece between the clicky leaves used in the whites and the non-clicky ones used in the blacks:

http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_alps_bigfoot3.htm


Offline Chloe

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« Reply #36 on: Thu, 15 January 2009, 08:55:35 »
Quote from: wellington1869;18264
How to turn your dell black alps into white alps: see attached pics. It sounds pretty good actually! And works well as a quick mod if you want to bring an audible click to your dell at101w black alps board.

Nice mod. It also works on cream ALPS in an Apple Extended II. I just pressed the tabs with my fingernail. Removing these tabs has the same effect.

I find the click is quieter and higher pitched than clicky ALPS but it is definitely an improvement. I'm going to do this to my Apple Extended II.

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #37 on: Thu, 15 January 2009, 09:52:52 »
Quote
I find the click is quieter and higher pitched than clicky ALPS but it is definitely an improvement. I'm going to do this to my Apple Extended II.


I would imagine this is due the black leaf not having the bump on the back that is supposed to create the click on the white leaf.


Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #38 on: Thu, 15 January 2009, 09:56:46 »
Quote from: Chloe;18276
Nice mod. It also works on cream ALPS in an Apple Extended II. I just pressed the tabs with my fingernail.


ya, I was surprised at how easily the tabs bend. I could probably have just used my thumb :)

Quote

I find the click is quieter and higher pitched than clicky ALPS but it is definitely an improvement.


Yup, thats exactly how i'd describe it. Slightly quieter, slightly higher pitched - and definitely an improvement :D

I actually feel like the sound is pretty close to the white strongmans on the TP2 (which I've always described as a lighter white alps). So this is an easy way to get something pretty close to that if you have the 10 buck dell board :)

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #39 on: Thu, 15 January 2009, 09:57:46 »
Quote from: itlnstln;18287
I would imagine this is due the black leaf not having the bump on the back that is supposed to create the click on the white leaf.


I think thats exactly right.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline Chloe

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« Reply #40 on: Thu, 15 January 2009, 10:14:21 »
I think these tabs stop the leaf from bending. By removing them at the top the leaf bends a little when the stem is pressed. The click might be the sound of this leaf hitting the casing.

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #41 on: Thu, 15 January 2009, 10:20:35 »
According to Qwerters clinic, this is the case, Chloe.


Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #42 on: Thu, 15 January 2009, 10:28:24 »
this is something that makes alps switches fun to play around with. they're so accessible, easy to open up, and have lots of interchangeable (and easily moddable) parts inside. Cut the springs, bend the leafs, dampen the sliders, swap parts - all on your bed while watching tv. :) Fine tune it just the way you like it.

Much more accessible than cherries, and more tweakable than buckling springs. Fun.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline Chloe

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« Reply #43 on: Thu, 15 January 2009, 10:28:27 »
I've done about twenty switches now and have noticed some switches have a quieter click. I thought this might be related to the spring surgery but there is no correlation between the volume of click and spring length.

Offline Chloe

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« Reply #44 on: Thu, 15 January 2009, 11:59:50 »
Now that I've done the whole keyboard I don't think this variation is an issue when typing normally. The delicate click really suits the light feeling of the switches after spring surgery. It really is an improvement. I uploaded a sound clip here:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=1347

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #45 on: Fri, 16 January 2009, 02:03:53 »
Quote from: Chloe;18295
Now that I've done the whole keyboard I don't think this variation is an issue when typing normally. The delicate click really suits the light feeling of the switches after spring surgery. It really is an improvement. I uploaded a sound clip here:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=1347


thanks for the sound clip! I just finished the rest of my dell board. I'm not seeing too much click volume difference, I suppose here and there a tiny bit.  I like the delicate click too, it suits the dell board as well.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline chimera15

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« Reply #46 on: Thu, 28 May 2009, 04:20:34 »
Cool old thread.  This is the same as the 3501 I had.  Although my switches appeared to be much more true white.  It really confused me.  They're white, but not clicky. I stole all the switches from it and replaced them in a siig minitouch.  It has a awesome fast feel on it now.  There's definitely a bump,  but no click.  At high speed, it's not felt much, and when the key is pressed and bottoms out the rubber really gives an interesting softer sensation, vrs a harder stiff bottoming out on a fake or real white alps.  It's like someone took a white slider board and put a soft filter on it or something.  The keys also don't seem to travel as far, probably due to the bumper hitting the little projection in the bottom of the plastic.  I'd say overall it has a much more rubber dome feel to it, but the keys feel very solid and responsive unlike a rubber dome. The key is also much easily pressed down (maybe as much as 2x easier) to fakes certainly and probably about 3/4 of a real complicated white alps switch.
« Last Edit: Thu, 28 May 2009, 04:27:07 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #47 on: Thu, 28 May 2009, 13:22:43 »
ya i'm a big fan of the rubber dampers on alps boards. Nice thing is those 3501's sliders can fit nearly any alps board, so its a nice mod.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline chimera15

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« Reply #48 on: Thu, 28 May 2009, 16:12:59 »
Quote from: wellington1869;93148
ya i'm a big fan of the rubber dampers on alps boards. Nice thing is those 3501's sliders can fit nearly any alps board, so its a nice mod.

Funnily enough I tried a version of that, putting normal white alps switches in the dampered cases, and it didn't work so well, the travel seemed really messed up, and the key wouldn't fully depress cause the case for the cream/white seems to allow for the extra bit of rubber.    I was trying to turn the switches into true whites and it didn't work, but using the dampered slider and a clicky leaf spring does work, although the travel still isn't the same as white.     I don't think I've tried the opposite of it. My mod is a complete refit, I desoldered all the switches from both boards, and replaced them directly, I didn't take the top of the switches off and just use the components.  The siig uses fake simplifieds, so it's a signifigant upgrade.
« Last Edit: Thu, 28 May 2009, 16:25:52 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #49 on: Thu, 28 May 2009, 16:21:08 »
sounds complicated!  I tried soldering/desoldering alps switches once, and a great disaster was the result (I'm holding three carcass boards now in storage, lol). basically my switches refused to work once i had them soldered into the new board. No idea what went wrong, but they were definitely fried, lol.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline chimera15

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« Reply #50 on: Thu, 28 May 2009, 16:33:45 »
Quote from: wellington1869;93176
sounds complicated!  I tried soldering/desoldering alps switches once, and a great disaster was the result (I'm holding three carcass boards now in storage, lol). basically my switches refused to work once i had them soldered into the new board. No idea what went wrong, but they were definitely fried, lol.

Oh that's a shame.  I had nightmares about this upgrade that that would happen, but I had some success before when I replaced a fake simplified spacebar key that was acting intermitantly on my other kb1903, so I was pretty confident I could do it.  A good desoldering tool is a must, and you have to be careful you don't force any solder points.  I came close to damaging the printed circuit in a couple narrow parts, but overall the siig minitouch has extremely robust printing, so was fairly easy.  The big problem came in the few keys that had bent over pins, they can be a real ***** to desolder.
 
  Also it's a lot harder to get the simplified keys loose because their pins are so flexible compared to the stiff real alps keys, but overall, if you just have a good set of tools you can usually pry the key out.

 Also you have to have some minimal precautions against static shock anytime you're working on electronics like that.  Try not to touch the board or any metal parts directly.
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #51 on: Thu, 28 May 2009, 16:46:48 »
ya thats why I saved the carcasses -- i'm going to attempt it again once I have better tools and a nicer workspace (I'm in a cramped apt right now). So I'll definitely attempt it again at some point.  I really want to put the matias TP2's 'real simplifieds' into my at101w.  I"m willing to hold on to these carcass boards for years until I'm ready to try again, lol.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline daerid

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« Reply #52 on: Sun, 24 April 2011, 20:41:10 »
Just finished the click mod to my at101w with black alps. Sounds much better now!