topre slider / silencing research

[crtexcnndrm99]

So, (after reading the detailed description of the 1st post) - I don't see anywhere the *other* solution left (apart from shortening the slider legs, which is the other half of the mod - keeping the travel distance): would it be possible to make the dome-touching base of each slider 1mm thinner? I.e. dig into it with some large shallow bit, or polish it, or even file it? Or with some heat-based method? The slider would then touch the dome from a higher position - like the type-s does, even with the ring on, so that the tactility would be preserved.

you can do like i did and separate the pcb from the plate by adding a bunch of these mobo washers on each screw hole:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/519M-GFa9UL._SX342_.jpg

oh i like that - nice thinking

[Laser]

So, (after reading the detailed description of the 1st post) - I don't see anywhere the *other* solution left (apart from shortening the slider legs, which is the other half of the mod - keeping the travel distance): would it be possible to make the dome-touching base of each slider 1mm thinner? I.e. dig into it with some large shallow bit, or polish it, or even file it? Or with some heat-based method? The slider would then touch the dome from a higher position - like the type-s does, even with the ring on, so that the tactility would be preserved.

you can do like i did and separate the pcb from the plate by adding a bunch of these mobo washers on each screw hole:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/519M-GFa9UL._SX342_.jpg

Thanks, this seems like a good idea - although by reading about it in kmba's posts above, this solution seems to has its drawbacks too. Also with that spacing applied only on the screws, doesn't this allow the domes to move on the PCB, since the housings edges doesn't touch them? (assuming a non-contiguous dome sheet)

[the_marsbar]

Nice information in this thread - thanks.

Any way to know which slider version I have in my Type-S? Is it only possible to know by removing one of the sliders and measuring?

[MajorKoos]

Nice information in this thread - thanks.

Any way to know which slider version I have in my Type-S? Is it only possible to know by removing one of the sliders and measuring?

The Type-S slider has already been modified to accommodate the width of the silencing ring.
In theory the best option if you don't need MX compatibility.

[the_marsbar]

The Type-S slider has already been modified to accommodate the width of the silencing ring.
In theory the best option if you don't need MX compatibility.

Sorry, I can see how my point didn't come through in my previous comment.

I'll try to clarify - I hope it will make more sense. PFUs web site states different key travels for the HHKB Pro 2 (4 mm) and Type-S (3.8 mm). However, it was also mentioned in this thread that newer(?) Type-S keyboards have sliders similar to the silent Realforce keyboards, which compensates for the silencing material. So key the key travel of those Type-S keyboards should be 4 mm I suppose? If that's correct, they my questions is; how do I know if my HHKB Type-S has "regular" Type-S sliders (3.8 mm travel), or Realforce sliders (4 mm travel)?

[sth]

The Type-S slider has already been modified to accommodate the width of the silencing ring.
In theory the best option if you don't need MX compatibility.

Sorry, I can see how my point didn't come through in my previous comment.

I'll try to clarify - I hope it will make more sense. PFUs web site states different key travels for the HHKB Pro 2 (4 mm) and Type-S (3.8 mm). However, it was also mentioned in this thread that newer(?) Type-S keyboards have sliders similar to the silent Realforce keyboards, which compensates for the silencing material. So key the key travel of those Type-S keyboards should be 4 mm I suppose? If that's correct, they my questions is; how do I know if my HHKB Type-S has "regular" Type-S sliders (3.8 mm travel), or Realforce sliders (4 mm travel)?

you would probably have to use a micrometer to be sure.
i would be surprised if they changed the sliders on the type-S - they are probably still 3.8mm total travel. .2mm is an extremely small difference.
the other thing is that RF silent sliders are purple, and type-S silent sliders are black so there is some visual indication of which one you have.

[the_marsbar]

I believe they more recent models of the Type-S have the dimensions as silenced RFs. They are just not purple.

That seems to be the general consensus that I've seen too.

I would like to try an RF slider next to a Type-S slider in an HHKB, just to check for any perceivable difference in smoothness.

If there's nothing in it then the only selling point for RF is to have purple sliders..

According to the comments above, it sounds to me like there would be multiple versions of the Type-S slider...

[the_marsbar]

I ordered a set of fiber washers, but after reading abou the paper spacer trick here, I decided to try that.

What I did was use layered stickies (the part with glue), drilled holes, and cut small pieces. It looked like this:


When installed, it looked like this:


Initial thoughts: the dampening effect has definately lessened. However, I also feel that the tactility is restored. I think I'll give it a few days, and then I might try removing it all, including the dampening rings. Maybe the undampened HHKB is not as bad as I remember...

Anyway, I'd also be interested in looking for a Realforce with silent sliders. Could someone mention the various models where silent versions were available, and which of those are easiest to find second hand? 87U, 104U, any other?

EDIT: I like the restored tactility, but I'm not a fan of the reduced dampening effect, and I also don't like the added height of the keys. It's not a lot, but I think it's noticeable.

[sth]

I ordered a set of fiber washers, but after reading abou the paper spacer trick here, I decided to try that.

What I did was use layered stickies (the part with glue), drilled holes, and cut small pieces. It looked like this:

Show Image

When installed, it looked like this:

Show Image

Initial thoughts: the dampening effect has definately lessened. However, I also feel that the tactility is restored. I think I'll give it a few days, and then I might try removing it all, including the dampening rings. Maybe the undampened HHKB is not as bad as I remember...

Anyway, I'd also be interested in looking for a Realforce with silent sliders. Could someone mention the various models where silent versions were available, and which of those are easiest to find second hand? 87U, 104U, any other?

EDIT: I like the restored tactility, but I'm not a fan of the reduced dampening effect, and I also don't like the added height of the keys. It's not a lot, but I think it's noticeable.

i'd like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that a light coat of thick lube on your sliders does nearly as much to silence a hhkb as using silencing rings or special sliders maybe not quite as quiet, but it works for me and it's a lot cheaper!

[the_marsbar]

Yes, but we’re also talkie about tactility, right?

That won’t be improved using lube.

[SmilingPolitely]

Just throwing my experiences out there.

Installed the KBDFans silencing rings on my RF87u. Also applied some rubber-safe synthetic lube. One of the rings (and only one!) disintegrated into a sticky mess on the stem. It’s been a few months now and I’ve not had any of the other rings go bad. Strange, eh?

Should also note that it did appear that my RF87u came with a very light coat of lube from the factory. Who knows... maybe it was their lube that reacted to the KBDFans rings.

[the_marsbar]

That doesn't sound very nice. I guess it could be the chemicals in the lube reacting with the KBDfans rings.

A small update on my attempt with the paper spacing: I removed some of the straight pieces of paper, and the sound is better now (I think some keys were hitting the top plate when fully pressed. I'm happy enough now to wait for a while until I get hold of some purple sliders.

[SmilingPolitely]

That doesn't sound very nice. I guess it could be the chemicals in the lube reacting with the KBDfans rings.

That's what I'm guessing too. I ended up cleaning off the factory lube before applying the stuff I bought: https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.4-oz-bottle-oil-with-syncolon-ptfe-lubricant.1000735863.html

The data sheets I found stated that it should be plastic and rubber safe, which has been my experience thus far. I noticed some older posts stating that RF boards didn't come lubed from the factory, but that clearly isn't the case.

[romevi]

This is really good research. Keep it up! 

[sth]

Yes, but we’re also talkie about tactility, right?

That won’t be improved using lube.

if you don't use silencing rings to begin with, you don't lose tactility

[rxc92]

Anyway, I'd also be interested in looking for a Realforce with silent sliders. Could someone mention the various models where silent versions were available, and which of those are easiest to find second hand? 87U, 104U, any other?

 
 
You can currently buy new silenced ANSI-layout silenced Realforce boards, best from a Japanese proxy. On amazon.co.jp there's the 87 in white and the 104 in both colors, but the black is quite a bit more expensive. Here's the 104 and here's the TKL. 
 
Note that they come directly from the manufacturer; these are directly from Topre Corp. (東プレ = Topre) They also have sites on tenso and others, but I figured amazon would be the easiest. Lots of proxies you can use!

[the_marsbar]

Thanks, rxc92. I had seen those, but I somehow hoped there would be more models to choose from. I also saw the 108, but I wouldn't be able to use that layout. I'm mostly after the sliders, but if I only have to sacrifice a few extra sliders for a layout that I can use (the 104), then it's fine.

sth, did I step on your toes somehow? If I did, I'm sorry, but I thought this thread was about Topre sliders and silencing. Maybe it's just me, but I thought it would be nice to know if it's possible to use one of the aftermarket silencing solutions and retain the tactility of the switches.

[rxc92]

Thanks, rxc92. I had seen those, but I somehow hoped there would be more models to choose from. I also saw the 108, but I wouldn't be able to use that layout. I'm mostly after the sliders, but if I only have to sacrifice a few extra sliders for a layout that I can use (the 104), then it's fine.

sth, did I step on your toes somehow? If I did, I'm sorry, but I thought this thread was about Topre sliders and silencing. Maybe it's just me, but I thought it would be nice to know if it's possible to use one of the aftermarket silencing solutions and retain the tactility of the switches.

My bad, I should've read through more carefully. Best of luck in getting the sliders!
And no fighting on the forums guys.

[kmba]

Yea k really can't recommend the tactility restoration mod. It makes the board noisier, keycaps will likely bottom out and require spacers, the case is tight to fit together and adds gaps between the two pieces, and probably some more downsides I don't remember.

[the_marsbar]

Yesterday I took apart my HHKB Pro (silenced using Hypersphere's silencing rings) and my HHKB Type-S. I took out a slider from each keyboard, took a few photos and took some measurements with a digital vernier caliper (brand unknown, probably not the most accurate). I also took some measurements with a regular (analog) vernier caliper. I took photos of the readings on both of them. A couple of photos (notice that the Type-S slider has more "rounded" edges when seen from above:



Here are the measurements of the sliders:
- Pro 2 slider dimensions: 11.40 mm (total height), 8.90 mm (height of the cylindrical part)
- Type-S slider dimensions: 11.59 mm (total height), 9.20 mm (height of the cylindrical part), 0.32 mm (depth of the notch under the slider)

I also measured the thickness of the silencing rings, but those numbers should naturally be taken with a grain of salt (I tried not to compress the rings when measuring their thickness):
- Hypersphere silencing ring height: 0.40 mm
- Type-S silencing ring height: 0.41 mm

Conclusions: The slider from my Type-S keyboard is ~0.2 mm longer than the one from my Pro 2. The difference in the height of the cylindrical parts of the sliders is ~0.3 mm, which is also the depth of the notch under the cylinder of the Type-S slider. My guess is that this is needed to avoid the keycaps hitting the slider housing when fully pressed. Another thing I noticed; the silencing rings have similar thickness, however, the rings installed in the Type-S are much softer, and I guess that's what causes the sound to be more thocky on the Type-S (I did not apply lube in any of the keyboards).
I'm still not sure whether I have sliders with 4 or 3.8 mm travel in my Type-S (which measurement determines the travel?). It would be really cool if other people with newer and/or older Type-S keyboards could do the same measurements. 

If I at some point manage to get hold of a Realforce with purple sliders, I will also make sure to take out one of the sliders and do the same measurements.

Since the difference in height between the sliders is ~0.2 mm, I am guessing that the silencing rings in the Type-S are around 0.2 mm thick when compressed. I can only guess wrt. the same measurement for Hypersphere's silencing rings, but it didn't feel at all as soft as the ring from the Type-S, so I'm guess it will be a bit more. The issue with using the paper spacers is that if you add too many, the keys will hit the slider housing. The slider has to be longer to compensate for the silencing ring to avoid this. I ended up leaving two layers of paper, and I'm happy with that so far.

[SmilingPolitely]

Someone requested I record a clip of my RF87u w/ KBDFans silencing rings installed. I believe there are better videos already on Youtube, but here's a 1 minute clip of some varied typing on mine:

[sth]

Yesterday I took apart my HHKB Pro (silenced using Hypersphere's silencing rings) and my HHKB Type-S. I took out a slider from each keyboard, took a few photos and took some measurements with a digital vernier caliper (brand unknown, probably not the most accurate). I also took some measurements with a regular (analog) vernier caliper. I took photos of the readings on both of them. A couple of photos (notice that the Type-S slider has more "rounded" edges when seen from above:

Show Image

Show Image

Here are the measurements of the sliders:
- Pro 2 slider dimensions: 11.40 mm (total height), 8.90 mm (height of the cylindrical part)
- Type-S slider dimensions: 11.59 mm (total height), 9.20 mm (height of the cylindrical part), 0.32 mm (depth of the notch under the slider)

I also measured the thickness of the silencing rings, but those numbers should naturally be taken with a grain of salt (I tried not to compress the rings when measuring their thickness):
- Hypersphere silencing ring height: 0.40 mm
- Type-S silencing ring height: 0.41 mm

Conclusions: The slider from my Type-S keyboard is ~0.2 mm longer than the one from my Pro 2. The difference in the height of the cylindrical parts of the sliders is ~0.3 mm, which is also the depth of the notch under the cylinder of the Type-S slider. My guess is that this is needed to avoid the keycaps hitting the slider housing when fully pressed. Another thing I noticed; the silencing rings have similar thickness, however, the rings installed in the Type-S are much softer, and I guess that's what causes the sound to be more thocky on the Type-S (I did not apply lube in any of the keyboards).
I'm still not sure whether I have sliders with 4 or 3.8 mm travel in my Type-S (which measurement determines the travel?). It would be really cool if other people with newer and/or older Type-S keyboards could do the same measurements. 

If I at some point manage to get hold of a Realforce with purple sliders, I will also make sure to take out one of the sliders and do the same measurements.

Since the difference in height between the sliders is ~0.2 mm, I am guessing that the silencing rings in the Type-S are around 0.2 mm thick when compressed. I can only guess wrt. the same measurement for Hypersphere's silencing rings, but it didn't feel at all as soft as the ring from the Type-S, so I'm guess it will be a bit more. The issue with using the paper spacers is that if you add too many, the keys will hit the slider housing. The slider has to be longer to compensate for the silencing ring to avoid this. I ended up leaving two layers of paper, and I'm happy with that so far.

awesome research! thanks for the measurements. I'll try to include them in the OP if that's cool with you. and yes you're right - the difference in thickness is made up by the silencing ring to ensure the keycaps sit at the same level and don't lose tactility.

sth, did I step on your toes somehow? If I did, I'm sorry, but I thought this thread was about Topre sliders and silencing. Maybe it's just me, but I thought it would be nice to know if it's possible to use one of the aftermarket silencing solutions and retain the tactility of the switches.

take a breath, hot dog.
the gist of it is, if you're looking for silencing, a little lube is gonna be the best bang for your buck. it makes the sliders feel better, does an OK job of quieting things down, and does not affect tactility. the other  options are putting silencing rings on non-silenced sliders, which other than kbdfans rings, usually affect tactility to a negative degree, buying a Type-S -- OR, buying a perfectly good realforce and gutting it for sliders, and destroying its resale value in the process.

[MajorKoos]

FWIW I've had pretty decent results with the V1 Keyclack silencing pads after applying lube to the sliders to help hold them in place.
I made sure to not to use any duds and that they're properly aligned on the slider.
The lube made more of a change to tactility than the silencing pads IMO.

[Rob27shred]

FWIW I've had pretty decent results with the V1 Keyclack silencing pads after applying lube to the sliders to help hold them in place.
I made sure to not to use any duds and that they're properly aligned on the slider.
The lube made more of a change to tactility than the silencing pads IMO.

Same thing I did when I dome swapped, lubed, & silenced my 660C. That was around 6 months ago & I haven't had any issues with the rings riding up the stem or affecting the actuation of any of the keys. In fact now that Jchan has decided to move away from the V1 design I'm kinda mad I didn't order more just to have. I really like them compared to KBDfan's or Hypershere's rings. They have just enough to them to slightly silence the upstrokes, yet not interfere with the tactility or keyfeel at all.

[the_marsbar]

awesome research! thanks for the measurements. I'll try to include them in the OP if that's cool with you. and yes you're right - the difference in thickness is made up by the silencing ring to ensure the keycaps sit at the same level and don't lose tactility.

Sure, go ahead and include it.

take a breath, hot dog.
the gist of it is, if you're looking for silencing, a little lube is gonna be the best bang for your buck. it makes the sliders feel better, does an OK job of quieting things down, and does not affect tactility. the other  options are putting silencing rings on non-silenced sliders, which other than kbdfans rings, usually affect tactility to a negative degree, buying a Type-S -- OR, buying a perfectly good realforce and gutting it for sliders, and destroying its resale value in the process.

I didn't mean to offend you with my comment. My point was that using lube does not change the tactility in terms of the small bump in the actuation force curve right at the beginning of the keypress. Applying a lubricant where the slider is in contact with the slider housing is surely a good idea in terms of silencing.

I'd still like to have a Realforce with purple sliders, because I'm interested in comparing the sliders. I'm also interested in trying the other silencing rings, to see how they affect the feel of the keyboard.

I think it's a really good idea to keep a record of the various factors which influence the amount of silencing and the related change in tactility (possibly resulting in an optimal combination of modifications, of course what is optimal in this sense can be discussed). After removing some of the paper spacers I had in my keyboard (I left two layers), my Hypersphere silencing HHKB Pro 2 is now much better (i.e., closer to the feel of my Type-S) than before.