Author Topic: Most responsive (fastest) keyboard for gaming  (Read 50088 times)

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Offline Bysheon

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Most responsive (fastest) keyboard for gaming
« on: Sat, 30 May 2009, 21:58:29 »
Hi guys. Just found this forum and you guys seem to know what you're talking about. I've browsed the forum but haven't found much on this particular topic. One guy asked for advice on a gaming keyboard, but he didn't seem to prioritize key "responsiveness" (speed) as much as me.

So yeah, that's what I'm looking for - a responsive keyboard for gaming. I don't know anything about keyboards, but unless there's something I'm overlooking I guess a scissor-switch keyboard would be as fast since the key travel is 2mm, which as far as I understand it is the same travel distance as when a mechanical-switch keyboard generally register a key press. Tbh, I don't really care much if the keys are low or high, click or doesn't click. Not sure about tactile though, haven't tried that. I want whatever is the fastest, meaning what register my key press with the least amount of delay. I don't need N-key rollover or macro features.

Absolute must: USB and common layout. 1000 hz default is nice. Internal polling rate must be at least 500 hz. I'd prefer a solid, durable keyboard, but as much as it would hurt to have to choose, not at the expence of responsiveness (speed).  

Looks and price matter much less to me, but as a reference I have a SS 7G. Apart from it not being USB I like it.

Any suggestions much appreciated.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: Sat, 30 May 2009, 22:42:12 by Bysheon »

Offline IBI

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Most responsive (fastest) keyboard for gaming
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 31 May 2009, 08:51:43 »
You're probably better off asking the professional gamers. While somebody here can probably explain how the controllers work with regard to delays, things like which type of switch are fastest are more about biology than mechanics - does hitting a wall rather than getting a click/notch speed you up or slow you down? Will a click allow you to move to the next key sooner or will your reflexes get in the way? Does an unpleasent sounding keyboard heighten your awareness?
Owned: Raptor-Gaming K1 (linear MX)(Broken), IBM Model M UK, Dell AT102W, Left-handed keyboard with Type 1 Simplified Alps.

Offline mmgoose

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Most responsive (fastest) keyboard for gaming
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 31 May 2009, 08:56:58 »
it really doesn't matter, go with the one which you're most comfortable.  top tier fps professional gamers don't even use mechanical keyboards or "gaming" keyboards unless they're being sponsored say for instance by steelseries or razer.

i'm assuming you'll be using it for rts games which to some extent requires some amount of bashing and speed but even the best use simple 10$ rubber dome boards and 10$ optical mice.

so you're not missing out on performance regardless of what gaming peripheral manufacturers say about how their boards and mice are so much better/faster than everyone else's.  even durability is a non issue with 10$ boards.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #3 on: Sun, 31 May 2009, 09:01:14 »
Quote from: Bysheon;93476
Looks and price matter much less to me, but as a reference I have a SS 7G. Apart from it not being USB I like it.
Thanks.


You could always get a Filco with black cherries. Same type of key action, but with USB. It doesn't have a numpad, so that may be a plus or a minus depending on your need for a numpad.

Offline IBI

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Most responsive (fastest) keyboard for gaming
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 31 May 2009, 09:26:44 »
Out of interest, what sort of response times are you getting from your current keyboard?
Owned: Raptor-Gaming K1 (linear MX)(Broken), IBM Model M UK, Dell AT102W, Left-handed keyboard with Type 1 Simplified Alps.

Offline huha

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« Reply #5 on: Sun, 31 May 2009, 09:32:48 »
I'm sorry to say this, but your expectations are totally unrealistic. Internal polling rate doesn't mean anything as it's just a technical detail; the most important thing is switch bounce; the debouncer, a software component of the keyboard controller, needs to be adjusted to the bounce time in order to allow for debouncing the keys correctly.
Cherry's MX switches, according to their datasheet, feature bounce times of less than 5 ms. Of course, the keyboard controller is polling somewhat faster than that in order to accumulate enough states (I haven't measured it, but if I were to design a controller, I'd probably choose an internal matrix polling rate in the low kHz range; no keystrokes will be missed, it's both electronically and computationally inexpensive and no fancy high-frequency stuff is involved (traces on mainboards do look so strange for a reason!)), but the speed at which it does this is totally irrelevant for just about anyone; it will get a number of states to decide whether the key was pressed or released.
I suspect rubber-dome boards feature longer bounce times, but let's just use the 5 ms figure Cherry give in their datasheets: The controller can scan the matrix at about any rate it wants to, but you won't get more than 200 Hz "polling rate" from it; the physical characteristics of the switch don't allow a decision whether a key was pressed in under 5 milliseconds due to key bounce. This is a physical limitation and can not be remedied by any easy means.
There are technologies for practically removing key bounce, such as mercury-coated reed switches, but this would require a controller specifically programmed to not do debouncing at all plus you'd have to build a keyboard using these switches (with mercury being phased out, finding mercury-coated reed switches should be somewhat of a problem; maybe other metals will also do; gallium has quite a low melting point, so with a little bit of heating, this could do; I don't know anything about its surface tension, though), which would become insanely expensive.

Enough said, so I'll come straight to the point: I consider many requirements of gamers to stem from misinformation or no information at all. Polling rate is one such thing; polling a keyboard faster than it can register keypresses just puts unneccesary load on the US bus and the keyboard controller; you'll get 200 Hz at best, and that's not regarding anything else the keyboard controller has to do. In reality, I don't think many keyboards can profit from polling rates faster than 50-100 Hz.
So here's my pro tip: Think about your requirements and question them. Find out why you have them in order to really ask yourself if they are really neccesary or you've just been taken in by hype and marketing. Then come back and find a nice keyboard. ;)

-huha
Unicomp Endurapro 105 (blank keycaps, BS) // Cherry G80-3000LSCDE-2 (blues, modded to green MX) // Cherry G80-3000LAMDE-0 (blacks, 2x) // Cherry G80-11900LTMDE-0 (blacks, 2x) // Compaq G80-11801 (browns) // Epson Q203A (Fujitsu Peerless) // IBM Model M2 (BS) // Boscom AS400 Terminal Emulator (OEM\'d Unicomp, BS, 2x) // Dell AT102DW (black Alps) // Mechanical Touch (chinese BS) Acer 6312-KW (Acer mechanics on membrane) // Cherry G84-4100 (ML) // Cherry G80-1000HAD (NKRO, blacks)

Offline Mr.6502

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Most responsive (fastest) keyboard for gaming
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 31 May 2009, 10:37:25 »
If you're on Windows there'll be a USB polling rate of 125Hz on the keyboard.  Even if the keyboard has firmware requesting a faster polling rate, the keyboard state will update every 8ms.  There are hacks out there to change usbport.sys to 500Hz or 1000Hz.  I don't know how effective they are.

My experience with gaming on keyboards is with fighting games.  They are fast, twitchy, and often depend on frame specific actions.  I've used a Razer Tarantula which claims 1000Hz and I prefer my old IBM PS/2 keyboard any day.
"Engineers are really good at labeling and branding things ...  If we had named Kentucky Fried Chicken, it would have been Hot Dead Birds."

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Offline Bysheon

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Most responsive (fastest) keyboard for gaming
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 31 May 2009, 11:50:18 »
Thanks for all the answers.

Quote from: ripster;93481
Welcome to Geekhack!

There's a bit of a discussion here.

I believe the Kensington might meet your needs.  The guy in the review churned his up in a year but they're not expensive (compared to some of the other boards here).  Layout is ALMOST normal.

The Enermax Aurora Premium looks interesting but look at this member's comments.  He had the 7G as well as a host of pretty high end boards.  In other words, there's more going on than key travel to make a keyboard feel responsive.  I'd hate the flat keys too.

I like the Filco Brown Cherry board because it's a good all-around board.

It would also help if you specify what types of games you play.  If you're not concerned about N-Key that opens up a lot of possibilities.

Can't  answer the polling question.  It sounds like more marketing hype than reality to me though.  I'd worry more about the mouse polling rate and even that gets way overemphasized IMHO.


Thanks!
Yes, I saw that discussion. :)

Trying to get at impression of the Kensington. Aurora Premium sounds very interesting indeed. Can get one here too (Sweden). Filco also looks very interesting.

I play Guild Wars. Yes, n-key doesn't matter to me. Actually, when the default cable is a ps/2 cable I don't want that function.When it's USB (2.0) with an adapter it doesn't matter.

Well, the polling thing is a discussion of its own. I just mentioned it in case anyone is a gamer, or just generally aware of/interested in that aspect of keyboards as input devices (and the whole chain of delay/latency in a system). Mouse speed doesn't matter much for me in that game, but I run my mouse @1000hz.

Offline Bysheon

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Most responsive (fastest) keyboard for gaming
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 31 May 2009, 12:28:45 »
Quote from: IBI;93498
You're probably better off asking the professional gamers. While somebody here can probably explain how the controllers work with regard to delays, things like which type of switch are fastest are more about biology than mechanics - does hitting a wall rather than getting a click/notch speed you up or slow you down? Will a click allow you to move to the next key sooner or will your reflexes get in the way? Does an unpleasent sounding keyboard heighten your awareness?



Sure, professional gamers has experience and knowledge about reaction time and that sort of things, as do mental chronometry scientists etc.  What I'm asking here is about keyboard technology and advice on keyboards from that perspective. :)
« Last Edit: Sun, 31 May 2009, 13:15:40 by Bysheon »

Offline Bysheon

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Most responsive (fastest) keyboard for gaming
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 31 May 2009, 12:34:06 »
Quote from: ripster;93530
Show Image


Well, this is a wild suggestion and I don't play Guild Wars but the  Ergodex allows custom configurations to a particular game. Linky.  None of the members here has one though.


Oh, this is an active forum! Thanks.
Yes, I've seen that one and I'm very interested. Apparently it has "short throw" keys.

Offline Bysheon

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Most responsive (fastest) keyboard for gaming
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 31 May 2009, 12:35:54 »
Quote from: ch_123;93500
You could always get a Filco with black cherries. Same type of key action, but with USB. It doesn't have a numpad, so that may be a plus or a minus depending on your need for a numpad.


Hi, thanks. Yes, ripster alos recommend Filco. Looking into it. Don't need numpad.

Offline Bysheon

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Most responsive (fastest) keyboard for gaming
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 31 May 2009, 12:45:27 »
Quote from: IBI;93506
Out of interest, what sort of response times are you getting from your current keyboard?


I don't know how to measure it. I've set the polling rate to 250hz, which afaik should mean 5ms delay (ps/2).

Offline IBI

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Most responsive (fastest) keyboard for gaming
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 31 May 2009, 13:19:05 »
Quote from: Bysheon;93536
Sure, professional gamers has experience and knowledge about reaction time and that sort of things, as do mental chronometry cientists etc.  What I'm asking here is about keyboard technology and advice on keyboards from that perspective. :)


I was just trying to emphasize that while somebody here may know mechanically which switch is fastest that isn't necessarily going to translate into the fastest switch when you're button mashing.

Quote from: Bysheon;93543
I don't know how to measure it. I've set the polling rate to 250hz, which afaik should mean 5ms delay (ps/2).


250Hz means a maximum of 5ms delay with an average of 2.5ms.

What's the most important reaction time element for you? Is it the time between seeing something on screen and getting the keypress registered? Or the time in between two presses of a key, or lifting off one key and hitting another?

Quote from: Bysheon;93528
I play Guild Wars. Yes, n-key doesn't matter to me. Actually, when the default cable is a ps/2 cable I don't want that function.When it's USB (2.0) with an adapter it doesn't matter.


That's an odd statement, what would be the issue with n-key rollover?
Owned: Raptor-Gaming K1 (linear MX)(Broken), IBM Model M UK, Dell AT102W, Left-handed keyboard with Type 1 Simplified Alps.

Offline IBI

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Most responsive (fastest) keyboard for gaming
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 31 May 2009, 14:11:01 »
I've attached a quick and dirty java app that times how long it takes between releasing one key and pressing another (or the same one). No guarantees that it's accurate, but the numbers seem to be about what I'd expect.

Sorry about the zip file, the forum won't let me attach executables directly. You'll also need java to run the program if you don't already have it.
Owned: Raptor-Gaming K1 (linear MX)(Broken), IBM Model M UK, Dell AT102W, Left-handed keyboard with Type 1 Simplified Alps.

Offline Bysheon

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Most responsive (fastest) keyboard for gaming
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 31 May 2009, 16:46:51 »
Quote from: huha;93509
I'm sorry to say this, but your expectations are totally unrealistic. Internal polling rate doesn't mean anything as it's just a technical detail; the most important thing is switch bounce; the debouncer, a software component of the keyboard controller, needs to be adjusted to the bounce time in order to allow for debouncing the keys correctly.
Cherry's MX switches, according to their datasheet, feature bounce times of less than 5 ms. Of course, the keyboard controller is polling somewhat faster than that in order to accumulate enough states (I haven't measured it, but if I were to design a controller, I'd probably choose an internal matrix polling rate in the low kHz range; no keystrokes will be missed, it's both electronically and computationally inexpensive and no fancy high-frequency stuff is involved (traces on mainboards do look so strange for a reason!)), but the speed at which it does this is totally irrelevant for just about anyone; it will get a number of states to decide whether the key was pressed or released.
I suspect rubber-dome boards feature longer bounce times, but let's just use the 5 ms figure Cherry give in their datasheets: The controller can scan the matrix at about any rate it wants to, but you won't get more than 200 Hz "polling rate" from it; the physical characteristics of the switch don't allow a decision whether a key was pressed in under 5 milliseconds due to key bounce. This is a physical limitation and can not be remedied by any easy means.
There are technologies for practically removing key bounce, such as mercury-coated reed switches, but this would require a controller specifically programmed to not do debouncing at all plus you'd have to build a keyboard using these switches (with mercury being phased out, finding mercury-coated reed switches should be somewhat of a problem; maybe other metals will also do; gallium has quite a low melting point, so with a little bit of heating, this could do; I don't know anything about its surface tension, though), which would become insanely expensive.

Enough said, so I'll come straight to the point: I consider many requirements of gamers to stem from misinformation or no information at all. Polling rate is one such thing; polling a keyboard faster than it can register keypresses just puts unneccesary load on the US bus and the keyboard controller; you'll get 200 Hz at best, and that's not regarding anything else the keyboard controller has to do. In reality, I don't think many keyboards can profit from polling rates faster than 50-100 Hz.
So here's my pro tip: Think about your requirements and question them. Find out why you have them in order to really ask yourself if they are really neccesary or you've just been taken in by hype and marketing. Then come back and find a nice keyboard. ;)

-huha


I don't really get your conclusion that polling rate matter less or even doesn't mean anything because the bouncing time due to physical limitations is capped (at best) at 200hz/5ms and therefore the "total delay" can never be lower than 5 ms. Aren't these delays additive?

I'll see if I can get info on the bouncing times for scissor switches.

Internal polling rate for specific keyboards might be a bit harder to find any info on, probably something many manufacturers would put at the very end of a rigourus documentation, if even there..

Offline Bysheon

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Most responsive (fastest) keyboard for gaming
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 31 May 2009, 16:53:10 »
Quote from: Mr.6502;93516
If you're on Windows there'll be a USB polling rate of 125Hz on the keyboard.  Even if the keyboard has firmware requesting a faster polling rate, the keyboard state will update every 8ms.  There are hacks out there to change usbport.sys to 500Hz or 1000Hz.  I don't know how effective they are.

My experience with gaming on keyboards is with fighting games.  They are fast, twitchy, and often depend on frame specific actions.  I've used a Razer Tarantula which claims 1000Hz and I prefer my old IBM PS/2 keyboard any day.


Ah. I'm considering the Arctosa.

That usbport tweak works fine. But, hm. So you mean that with the Arctosa for example (1000Hz default) you still would have to apply the usbport tweak? Why, I mean isn't the firmware doing that? :O

Offline Bysheon

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Most responsive (fastest) keyboard for gaming
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 31 May 2009, 17:07:01 »
Quote from: IBI;93553
I was just trying to emphasize that while somebody here may know mechanically which switch is fastest that isn't necessarily going to translate into the fastest switch when you're button mashing.

Not necessarily. True.

Quote from: IBI;93553
250Hz means a maximum of 5ms delay with an average of 2.5ms.

Yup. That's what I meant, the maximum (capped at 200hz/5ms since it's a ps/2).

Quote from: IBI;93553
What's the most important reaction time element for you? Is it the time between seeing something on screen and getting the keypress registered? Or the time in between two presses of a key, or lifting off one key and hitting another?

The first and the last example, with strong emphasis on the first.

Quote from: IBI;93553
That's an odd statement, what would be the issue with n-key rollover?

Oh, sorry. I worded it wierdly. Nothing really. I just don't want a ps/2 cable (which is needed for that feature).
« Last Edit: Sun, 31 May 2009, 17:41:42 by Bysheon »

Offline Bysheon

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« Reply #17 on: Sun, 31 May 2009, 17:17:05 »
Quote from: IBI;93567
I've attached a quick and dirty java app that times how long it takes between releasing one key and pressing another (or the same one). No guarantees that it's accurate, but the numbers seem to be about what I'd expect.

Sorry about the zip file, the forum won't let me attach executables directly. You'll also need java to run the program if you don't already have it.

Amazing!! Thanks! On my crappy keyboard the best times I can get seems to be 15ms between two presses on the same key. Btw, I thought I had reason to believe that the space key was more responsive/faster (OS dependant) than the other keys, but it doesn't seem to be the case. Or if it is, it's less than 1ms. I'll test this on my gaming comp too. :)

Edit: My gaming comp, with SS 7G, shows the same numbers. And when I press different keys the lowest number I can get is still 15 ms. When I press faster than that it doesn't seem to register. Hm.
« Last Edit: Sun, 31 May 2009, 20:33:15 by Bysheon »

Offline huha

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Most responsive (fastest) keyboard for gaming
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 31 May 2009, 17:54:02 »
Quote from: Bysheon;93578
I don't really get your conclusion that polling rate matter less or even doesn't mean anything because the bouncing time due to physical limitations is capped (at best) at 200hz/5ms and therefore the "total delay" can never be lower than 5 ms. Aren't these delays additive?

You might have misunderstood me there: Internal polling rate doesn't matter as long as it's fast enough, which it needs to be anyway. I'd prefer not calling it polling rate though, as this is technically incorrect; tha matrix is not polled, as there's nothing to respond to being polled; it's merely scanned, so the best expression would be sampling rate, which I'll use from now on.

There are several methods for getting keypresses; the first one is using a somewhat high sampling rate and "noticing" key bounce, needing software to decide whether the key has stopped bouncing; the second is using a low sampling rate; so low, in fact, that it's slower than the maximum bounce time of a switch; either way, it will take time for the switch to activate or deactivate. This is totally decoupled from the rate at which the keyboard controller is polled by the USB host. PS/2 isn't polled at all, but rather sends out keycodes as soon as it's ready to. I've calculated this at some point and with 10 kHz PS/2 frequency, transmitting a pair of bog-standard make and break codes (33 bits) takes 3.45 ms, which is faster than the bounce time of said switch. Hypothetically assuming a switch with no bounce at all, this could amount to 290 Hz "polling rate" (PS/2 isn't polled, so this is somewhat non-sensical, but let's just call it that for the sake of comparison)--that's about the fastest PS/2 can get. Just contrast this to a sampling rate of 1 kHz or so and notice it really doesn't matter as it's just an internal technical measurement absolutely unimportant for anything.

Quote
I'll see if I can get info on the bouncing times for scissor switches.

Key bounce for rubber domes should be even worse than for MX switches. Someone with an oscilloscope (preferably with memory) could check; it's a real pity this didn't come up a week earlier, I probably could have done this.

Quote
Internal polling rate for specific keyboards might be a bit harder to find any info on, probably something many manufacturers would put at the very end of a rigourus documentation, if even there..

Internal sampling rate is quite unimportant unless you're writing software for the keyboard controller. The more important thing is the time it takes the computer to register a keypress from the time the key was actually pressed. Matrix scanning speed is just absolutely irrelevant as long as it's fast enough (which I'll just assume it is). You could probably scan it with a few MHz, but then, switch capacitance and conductor lengths would start kicking in and overcomplicate just about everything.

As I said before, gamers are somewhat easy prey to marketing departments. You probably could set up a keyboard controller to use USB's isochronous transfer mode and reserve a fixed amount of bandwidth with guaranteed latency on the bus, a transfer mode, I might add, which is otherwise used for such mundane things as time-critical realtime audio or video and I do bet gamers would be all the rage about it. The only sensible reason noone is doing this already is cost associated therewith, for no standard controller can be used (fun fact: USB keyboards use the interrupt transfer mode, which will basically be the very first thing to suffer if the US bus fills up. Polling rate can range from 1 to 255 milliseconds if I recall correctly and I think it's set by the endpoint descriptor, although I'm not quite sure. I'll investigate this in the next few days.), rendering the whole operation prohibitively expensive.

You can't sensibly run any CRT above 160 Hz refresh rate; graphics cards can deliver 160 frames per second if you're willing to sacrifice a lot, but let's assume for a moment you actually are. 160 Hz amounts to another frame every 6.25 milliseconds, which is basically the fastest speed you'll see things to react to (your personal reaction time, on the other hand, should be anywhere from about 50 milliseconds upward). This is lightly longer than it takes the keyboard controller to actually register a keypress and much, much longer than internal sampling rates.
But seeing you play Guildwars takes the fun out of carefully constructed arguments and makes the whole thing extremely boring anyway, as Guildwars is an MMORPG and thus mostly dependent on something nobody cares about: RTT or round-trip-time (also known as "ping"). Light travels at 300'000 km/s, so it will traverse a puny amount of 300 kilometers per millisecond. This is the fastest[1] speed information can travel, so unless the Guildwars server you're playing on is located in the next town, transmission delay alone will be several milliseconds without factoring in switching, routing, packet retransmission and program logic. From my experience, we're talking about a RTT of several tens of milliseconds here, which means game updates will be sent out and come in in speeds of about 50 times per second at best. Discussing about internal sampling rates several magnitudes higher than this is a complete waste of time in this context, as the game will never ever profit even from absolutely delayless communication of switch states. Sorry to spoil your fun, but the speed your keyboard can send out keypresses is unimportant. It's not extremely imporant even for fast-paced games, but for games relying on packet-routed networks with neither guaranteed bandwidth nor latency, these kinds of discussions are insanely stupid.

So ... as I said before, get to know your requirements. Selling expensive stuff to gamers is nice and fine as long as they're willing to spend the money on things which are either useless or unimporant, but I for one wouldn't base my buying decisions on things that don't matter and will never matter because physics are limiting the effective polling rate to about a magnitude below the switch sampling rate and physics as well as telecommunication channels are limiting the usable rate at which keypresses matter to one or several magnitudes below that.

-huha
[1] No quantum physics today, please.
« Last Edit: Sun, 31 May 2009, 18:07:35 by huha »
Unicomp Endurapro 105 (blank keycaps, BS) // Cherry G80-3000LSCDE-2 (blues, modded to green MX) // Cherry G80-3000LAMDE-0 (blacks, 2x) // Cherry G80-11900LTMDE-0 (blacks, 2x) // Compaq G80-11801 (browns) // Epson Q203A (Fujitsu Peerless) // IBM Model M2 (BS) // Boscom AS400 Terminal Emulator (OEM\'d Unicomp, BS, 2x) // Dell AT102DW (black Alps) // Mechanical Touch (chinese BS) Acer 6312-KW (Acer mechanics on membrane) // Cherry G84-4100 (ML) // Cherry G80-1000HAD (NKRO, blacks)

Offline majestouch

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« Reply #19 on: Sun, 31 May 2009, 18:34:30 »
Good writeup huha, you're kind to spend the time explaining your detailed analysis. Reminds me of a "gaming" keyboard spec I've seen to the tune of  "Gold plated USB connector = reduced latency"

Offline IBI

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« Reply #20 on: Sun, 31 May 2009, 18:54:01 »
Quote from: huha;93591
we're talking about a RTT of several tens of milliseconds here, which means game updates will be sent out and come in in speeds of about 50 times per second at best.


The ping is transit time, not processing time though. What causes the limitation in this case? Is it just a practical decision?
Owned: Raptor-Gaming K1 (linear MX)(Broken), IBM Model M UK, Dell AT102W, Left-handed keyboard with Type 1 Simplified Alps.

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #21 on: Sun, 31 May 2009, 19:45:10 »
Quote from: huha;93591
for games relying on packet-routed networks with neither guaranteed bandwidth nor latency, these kinds of discussions are insanely stupid.


MMORPGs do carry out some client-side checking, you know. (Much to players' anger sometimes.)

Re the debounce, that is (or at least should be) totally irrelevant for detecting the first keypress. Once you detect electrical noise coming through the switch, you know the button is being pressed. That's it. No need to wait for that noise to settle down before making the decision.

Debouncing is only needed to tell when the key is released, and then whether it has been re-pressed.

Offline Mr.6502

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« Reply #22 on: Sun, 31 May 2009, 19:47:59 »
Quote from: Bysheon;93581
Ah. I'm considering the Arctosa.

That usbport tweak works fine. But, hm. So you mean that with the Arctosa for example (1000Hz default) you still would have to apply the usbport tweak? Why, I mean isn't the firmware doing that? :O


The firmware may ask for a faster refresh rate, but if the device is showing up as a standard keyboard, its probably still using the HID system and its part of the "system" keyboard.

If the game gives you the option of accessing multiple keyboards individually I guess there's a chance the firmware is enough.  As long as the game is accessing the keyboard at a low enough level.  If its accessing it through a higher level system like using DirectInput's System Keyboard then everything gets lumped together.  1000Hz USB, 125Hz USB, PS/2, all the keyboards will likely end up being represented by a keyboard object thats pollable and that updates itself at a rate of 125Hz.  

I have been building a game and have tried to tweak the source of a few emulators because my friends and I are primarily keyboard fighting game players.  My limited knowledge of keyboards and gaming comes from trying to program ways to allow multiple keyboards to play the same game without adding noticeable delay.  The main thing I've found is that Windows doesn't really discriminate between keyboards too much.  

Honestly, if you find a keyboard that is really comfortable to you, the refresh rate isn't going to matter.  I have keyboards I love and keyboards I hate and they could all be at different refresh rates for all I know.  The ones that work best are the ones I am most comfortable playing on.  Thats how I've ended up with rather crappy keyboards that I love to use to play fighting games and make combo videos for them.  

I use an IBM KB-8923 and a $5 Logitech USB keyboard for Playstation 2.  Both are very basic, very unimpressive.  But they fit my tastes perfectly for games that require very very fast input from 4 directions and 6 attack buttons.  I still keep the Razer Tarantula around as well, but only because I sometimes need 10 key input since the two I listed above can't do that, and I already have it (cheap-o from a closing CompUSA).
"Engineers are really good at labeling and branding things ...  If we had named Kentucky Fried Chicken, it would have been Hot Dead Birds."

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Offline molto

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« Reply #23 on: Mon, 01 June 2009, 06:31:53 »
Quote from: Bysheon;93585
Amazing!! Thanks! On my crappy keyboard the best times I can get seems to be 15ms between two presses on the same key. Btw, I thought I had reason to believe that the space key was more responsive/faster (OS dependant) than the other keys, but it doesn't seem to be the case. Or if it is, it's less than 1ms. I'll test this on my gaming comp too. :)

Edit: My gaming comp, with SS 7G, shows the same numbers. And when I press different keys the lowest number I can get is still 15 ms. When I press faster than that it doesn't seem to register. Hm.
Try playing a movie or song in the background and do the test again.
By default, Windows NT's system clock interrupts every ~ 10 ms or ~ 15 ms (depending on machine) - I guess you're just hitting that ceiling.
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Offline mmgoose

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« Reply #24 on: Mon, 01 June 2009, 08:41:21 »
2001 rubber logitech ps2 on w2000pro at best: 10ms
« Last Edit: Mon, 01 June 2009, 09:04:59 by mmgoose »
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Offline Bysheon

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« Reply #25 on: Tue, 02 June 2009, 18:44:14 »
Quote from: molto;93676
Try playing a movie or song in the background and do the test again.
By default, Windows NT's system clock interrupts every ~ 10 ms or ~ 15 ms (depending on machine) - I guess you're just hitting that ceiling.

System clock doesn't seem to affect it. I've tried with both 15 ms and 1 ms. I've tried to get my head around the factors involved in key press delay when a single key is being press, but I find it very difficult to theory craft about this because I don't have any relevant knowledge to begin with and there isn't much reasonably accessible info on these things, at least not that I can make much sense of.

As far as I understand, the process very, very simplified could be described something like this:

Fingertip on the key -> key being depressed -> key press registers -> OS retrieving and handling that key press.

Key being depressed is basically travel distance to "point of fire" (which is usually 2mm for mechanical switches, or 4mm) from the key in default position, and speed. A key press being registered involves keyboard internal scanning (code and rate/frequency, keyboard controller software), bouncing time (term for just mechanical switches?) and in the case of USB also polling rate.

As far as I understand every keyboard has an internal scanning rate/frequency but, like huha said, PS/2 keyboards aren't polled, they just send an interrupt signal, which means it's pretty instant. USB keyboards on the other hand are, in addition to the internal scanning, also being polled at the rate of 1-8 ms (1000hz-125hz). Keyboard internal scanning rate and the polling for USB keyboards is afaik simply put in theory additive if the scanning rate is slower than the key bouncing time, which means that USB keyboards in general potentially could be up to >1-8 ms slower than PS/2. I didn’t know this before, hence why I didn’t want a PS/2 keyboard. Anyway, when the internal scanning rate is faster than the key bouncing time it's irrelevant because it just has to scan once during that time, wich it will do. And should do, and probably always does, unless there's some buffering from the bounce. Table 2 in this document http://brm.psychonomic-journals.org/content/34/2/250.full.pdf show some strange numbers that I interpret indicate that USB polling rate is additive to the internal scanning rate when the scanning rate is slower than the key bouncing time (if that's the case), but that seems weird. The key press must be buffered then. Hm. I think. This is probably very basic and obvious things not needed to even be commented on for some people, but all this is new to me, even if the logic might seem pretty straight forward for anyone who knows this.

Anyway, regardless of all the factors involved in the whole process (and I'm sure I misunderstand some of it), even if I think some of it is interesting, I have a pragmatic view on this. The total delay (speed) is what interest me the most. In a keyboard ofc I care about comfort, build quality, size, aesthetics etc too but that’s not very relevant here.

I've found a little program that, even if it has limits and certainly doesn't show anything else than the sum of the factors involved, and I don't know how accurate it is, is very interesting and seems like a good indicator on key press times among other things and could be a pretty good instrument for real comparison between keyboards (and the other factors involved). Maybe even more interesting for testing keyboards for typing than for gaming.

A trial version of the program is available here.

I think depress time shows the time from a key press being registered to the key release being registered. This is ofc complicated, but I think.. maybe the number displayed could just plain be cut in half to indicate the "action time", meaning the time it takes for a key press to be registered. I could imagine system clock time being a factor here, but it doesn’t seem to be.  At least changing the system clock frequency doesn’t affect the numbers I get. I've read someone claiming this program showing a 7 ms key depress time for his Tarantula keyboard (mechanical switches, 1000 hz polling rate, and I think it has 500 hz internal scanning rate) but even if it in theory could be true as far as I know,  I take that with a grain of salt. Not that I have any reason to doubt him, I just want some more testimonies before I put much value in anecdotal evidence.

My two keyboards shows (on different computers) lowest key Depress time, regardless of polling rate, in ms
USB Logitech Media Keyboard Elite: 39/40
Steelseries 7G: 29/30

I would be very interested to see some numbers on other keyboards, if anyone has done this test or are willing to do it. I would be particularly interested in

Cherry G84-4100
Filco Majestouch
Realforce 87U
HHKB2
Razer Tarantula/Arctosa
Ergodex DX1

And ofc it would be interesting to see if someone else has tested the 7G.



Update: I guy have tested his Cherry G84-4100 and the lowest Depress time he could get was 26 ms.



Btw, surprisingly, my two mice shows 39/42 (Logitech MX518) and 23 (Razer DA) respectively, regardless of polling rate. I don’t know what’s up with that. Thought it should be much faster? Maybe the scanning and debouncing works differently on a mouse and this might not say much about the delay/speed of a single mouse key press, but still. I was under the impression that a mouse generally is much faster than a keyboard.  In game my mouse click is faster than a key press on my keyboard, I’m sure of that.* But it could be game related somehow, idk.

*Sure, ping varies. I’ve monitored my ping quite thoroughly and although it fluctuates incredibly much and average around 175 (even higher on American servers) occasionally my ping is very low and it’s only at those “low ping spikes” I can interrupt certain skills that has 0.75 s activation time, and I can visually easily tell the difference from when I’m doing it with my mouse and when I’m doing it with my keyboard by looking at the skill activation bar. It almost always looks something like this, where 1 is keyboard and 2 is mouse:

1: |----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|-|
2: |--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|---|

The first vertical line is when the skill I try to interrupt starts, the second vertical line is when the interrupt occurs (at least according to the UI, however accurate that is..) and the third vertical line is when the skill would have been completed if I didn’t interrupt it. This is very consistent and it’s the same pattern with other skills (with different activation times) -regardless of ping, the mouse is faster. Could be wrong ofc.
« Last Edit: Wed, 03 June 2009, 10:18:32 by Bysheon »

Offline skriefal

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Most responsive (fastest) keyboard for gaming
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 02 June 2009, 19:34:28 »
Quote from: IBI;93567
I've attached a quick and dirty java app that times how long it takes between releasing one key and pressing another (or the same one). No guarantees that it's accurate, but the numbers seem to be about what I'd expect.

Sorry about the zip file, the forum won't let me attach executables directly. You'll also need java to run the program if you don't already have it.


What are you using to measure the elapsed time?  System.currentTimeMillis()? If so then the resolution on most Windows-based systems will be only 10 milliseconds or so, and that will greatly limit the accuracy of your results.

Offline IBI

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« Reply #27 on: Tue, 02 June 2009, 20:53:07 »
Quote from: skriefal;94002
What are you using to measure the elapsed time?  System.currentTimeMillis()? If so then the resolution on most Windows-based systems will be only 10 milliseconds or so, and that will greatly limit the accuracy of your results.


Yeah, I'm just grabbing that on the key break and key make events for the JFrame and then subtracting the two.
Owned: Raptor-Gaming K1 (linear MX)(Broken), IBM Model M UK, Dell AT102W, Left-handed keyboard with Type 1 Simplified Alps.

Offline Mr.6502

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« Reply #28 on: Tue, 02 June 2009, 23:02:23 »
I don't know Java at all.  Is there any way to use a multimedia timer instead of the system timer?  MM Timers have 1ms precision instead of the 10ms of the system timer.

EDIT:  Actually, just ignore ^that^.  My thinking is too platform specific.  Java probably implements its time at least somewhat based on the host OS so the same code could probably get 1ms timing on OS X or Linux even if it gets 10-15ms on Windows.
« Last Edit: Wed, 03 June 2009, 00:12:06 by Mr.6502 »
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Offline skriefal

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« Reply #29 on: Tue, 02 June 2009, 23:35:31 »
I've done very little with Java since moving to C#/.Net in 2004, but for 8 years prior to that I was primarily a Java developer (server side only, so I can't help with UI stuff).  A quick Google search suggests that there is now a System.nanoTime() function that can be used to get timer resolution in the nanosecond range.  Presumably the resolution would be in the order of tens or hundreds of nanoseconds, but that's still between several thousand times and a million times more accurate at measuring short intervals than System.currentTimeMillis().
« Last Edit: Tue, 02 June 2009, 23:38:56 by skriefal »

Offline IBI

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« Reply #30 on: Wed, 03 June 2009, 11:02:52 »
I'm still getting the same 7-8ms resolution using nanoTime, but I've attached it in case anyone else has better luck.
Owned: Raptor-Gaming K1 (linear MX)(Broken), IBM Model M UK, Dell AT102W, Left-handed keyboard with Type 1 Simplified Alps.

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #31 on: Wed, 03 June 2009, 17:38:26 »
Quote from: IBI;94064
I'm still getting the same 7-8ms resolution using nanoTime, but I've attached it in case anyone else has better luck.


I'm getting times of 0.12 - 0.14 ms.

DAS III connected through a Belkin USB 1 switcher!

EDIT> same for Cherry 4100. Dinovo slower at 0.8ms

============================

EDIT> PassMark KeyboardTest gives:
Depress time: low as 37ms
Lag time: low as 9ms.
Similar figures from DAS III via USB 1 switch / Cherry G84-4100 via Dell screen USB hub / Logitech DiNovo via Bluetooth dongle.
« Last Edit: Thu, 04 June 2009, 17:47:41 by Rajagra »

Offline skriefal

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« Reply #32 on: Wed, 03 June 2009, 20:30:32 »
And I'm seeing 70000000ns or greater (70+ milliseconds)!  That's on a HHKB Pro 2 connected via USB to a Thinkpad W500 laptop.  Odd.

Offline skriefal

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« Reply #33 on: Wed, 03 June 2009, 22:48:52 »
Yeah -- I doubt that the 0.12 millisecond or 70 millisecond times are accurate.  There's probably something about Java's System.nanoTime() function that requires that it be used in a certain way to obtain accurate results.  And it's probably not being used in that way here.  Too bad my Java knowledge is 5 years out-of-date, otherwise I'd be of more assistance.

Edit:  Hmm.  I thought that perhaps this might be due to the Windows scheduler moving the thread between CPUs or CPU cores.  After a quick Google search I now believe that my guess was correct.  See here and here for discussions of this topic.  If this is indeed correct then the issue could be worked around by manually setting the CPU affinity of the JVM/JRE (usually javaw.exe) such that it is allowed to run on only a single core.  That can be done via the Windows Task Manager.
« Last Edit: Wed, 03 June 2009, 22:59:24 by skriefal »

Offline skriefal

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« Reply #34 on: Wed, 03 June 2009, 23:01:30 »
Nope... that didn't work either.  I guess System.nanoTime() simply isn't reliable on multi-core or multi-CPU machines.

Offline mmgoose

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« Reply #35 on: Thu, 04 June 2009, 03:51:13 »
logitech 2001

i have freakishly fast fingers
« Last Edit: Thu, 04 June 2009, 04:06:05 by mmgoose »
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Offline Bysheon

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« Reply #36 on: Thu, 04 June 2009, 13:12:50 »
Since more than me seems interested in testing key press times, from my last post:
Quote from: Bysheon;93988

I've found a little program that, even if it has limits and certainly doesn't show anything else than the sum of the factors involved, and I don't know how accurate it is, is very interesting and seems like a good indicator on key press times among other things and could be a pretty good instrument for real comparison between keyboards (and the other factors involved). Maybe even more interesting for testing keyboards for typing than for gaming.

A trial version of the program is available here.

I think depress time shows the time from a key press being registered to the key release being registered. This is ofc complicated, but I think.. maybe the number displayed could just plain be cut in half to indicate the "action time", meaning the time it takes for a key press to be registered. I could imagine system clock time being a factor here, but it doesn’t seem to be.  At least changing the system clock frequency doesn’t affect the numbers I get. I've read someone claiming this program showing a 7 ms key depress time for his Tarantula keyboard (mechanical switches, 1000 hz polling rate, and I think it has 500 hz internal scanning rate) but even if it in theory could be true as far as I know,  I take that with a grain of salt. Not that I have any reason to doubt him, I just want some more testimonies before I put much value in anecdotal evidence.

My two keyboards shows (on different computers) lowest key Depress time, regardless of polling rate, in ms
USB Logitech Media Keyboard Elite: 39/40
Steelseries 7G: 29/30

I would be very interested to see some numbers on other keyboards, if anyone has done this test or are willing to do it. I would be particularly interested in

Cherry G84-4100
Filco Majestouch
Realforce 87U
HHKB2
Razer Tarantula/Arctosa
Ergodex DX1

And ofc it would be interesting to see if someone else has tested the 7G.



Update: I guy have tested his Cherry G84-4100 and the lowest Depress time he could get was 26 ms.

That program seems pretty good. Good for testing key rollover too btw.  I had my 7G in a USB port, changed it to the PS/2 port, tested again and I got 2 ms faster lowest Depress time. USB polling rate didn't seem to matter at all when testing with this program when I hade the keyboard in the USB port. Maybe because the lowest time I got was when the polling was fortunate. When I have the keyboard in the PS/2 port, the lowest time I get is a little lower though, so idk..maybe I just didn't release the key fast enough before. More likely it's just because statistically, the probability for having so fortunate polling is so low I'd have to do this for very long time, and eventually I would end up with the same result with the keyboard in the USB port. But then the polling rate should matter when I have the keyboard in the USB port. In any case, it's just 2 ms difference but I'll include both result.

So, results so far, lowest Depress time, in ms:

Logitech Media Keyboard Elite, USB port: 39
Steelseries 7G, USB port (with adapter): 29
Steelseries 7G, PS/2 port: 27
Cherry G84-4100, USB port: 26 ms


This is on different computers, apart from the two 7G results. How much that might affect the results idk. Several results on the same keyboard would be good to get a better picture.

Pressing one key twice in a row (and look at the lag time) isn't possible to do fast and/or consistent enough to get any valuable info. Better to just try to get lowest possible Depress time.


Btw, I asked Passmark if system clock frequency might affect these results and got this answer : "It will have zero impact on keyboard test as we use high resolution counters, and not the clock." On the other hand, the guy also wrote:" You can't actually change the resolution of the global clock from an application, and even if you could, why would Windows Media player change it? I believe it can be changed from a device driver, but only for very short period." Not true, afaik. Anyway, is he right - system clock frequency doesn't matter here?
« Last Edit: Thu, 04 June 2009, 14:52:29 by Bysheon »

Offline Bysheon

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« Reply #37 on: Thu, 04 June 2009, 13:49:23 »
Quote from: ripster;94199
Spreads from .12 to 10's of ms tells me something ain't right here.

Cracks me up the Das has the fastest time.  One Das user complained he typed so fast he could WATCH the buffer delay.

I'm no engineer but this could turn into the mega N-Key Rollover post.  Nobody agreed  on how to test or definitions in THAT one.

Yes, seems so. Hence.  :) If it seems like a good tool for comparison, I could compile the results in the first post.
« Last Edit: Thu, 04 June 2009, 13:52:07 by Bysheon »

Offline Mr.6502

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« Reply #38 on: Thu, 04 June 2009, 15:02:06 »
I tried that program out.  

Razer Tarantula: 27ms (turbo and legacy mode)
Logitech PlayStation 2 USB: 35ms
IBM KB-8923 (PS/2): 57ms

For the sake of comparison I wrote a simple C# app that registers KeyDowns and KeyUps and tells the difference.  

Razer Tarantula: 7ms
Logitech PlayStation 2 USB: 15ms
IBM KB-8923 (PS/2): 37ms

Exactly 20ms difference in all of them.  

I wonder if PassMark KeyboardTest uses Windows Forms events to capture the KeyDowns and KeyUps then assumes the timer could be up to 10ms off on each event because thats how often its updated in Windows and automatically adds 20ms as a result?

EDIT: Obviously not if there are < 20ms responses happening (just noticed the .12 result).

This is kind of interesting.  I think I will start a 1ms MM Timer and watch a specific key's status directly to see if there is a difference.

EDIT AGAIN:

I used a high res systems diagnostic timer to double check the numbers and they confirmed the second set of numbers above being the time in MS between when the program detected the KeyDown and when it detected the KeyUp.  The timer is accurate to approx 69 nanoseconds on my computer (it varies with the hardware).
« Last Edit: Thu, 04 June 2009, 15:24:14 by Mr.6502 »
"Engineers are really good at labeling and branding things ...  If we had named Kentucky Fried Chicken, it would have been Hot Dead Birds."

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Offline Bysheon

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« Reply #39 on: Thu, 04 June 2009, 16:20:33 »
Quote from: Mr.6502;94208
I tried that program out.  

Razer Tarantula: 27ms (turbo and legacy mode)
Logitech PlayStation 2 USB: 35ms
IBM KB-8923 (PS/2): 57ms

For the sake of comparison I wrote a simple C# app that registers KeyDowns and KeyUps and tells the difference.  

Razer Tarantula: 7ms
Logitech PlayStation 2 USB: 15ms
IBM KB-8923 (PS/2): 37ms

Exactly 20ms difference in all of them.  

I wonder if PassMark KeyboardTest uses Windows Forms events to capture the KeyDowns and KeyUps then assumes the timer could be up to 10ms off on each event because thats how often its updated in Windows and automatically adds 20ms as a result?

EDIT: Obviously not if there are < 20ms responses happening (just noticed the .12 result).

This is kind of interesting.  I think I will start a 1ms MM Timer and watch a specific key's status directly to see if there is a difference.

EDIT AGAIN:

I used a high res systems diagnostic timer to double check the numbers and they confirmed the second set of numbers above being the time in MS between when the program detected the KeyDown and when it detected the KeyUp.  The timer is accurate to approx 69 nanoseconds on my computer (it varies with the hardware).

I think 0.12 was from the java app.

Oh, this is really interesting. Ok so, subtract 20 ms from those Keypress time numbers in KeyboardTest (if that's the case). I'm starting to think keyboards with capacitive switches is the only ones (reasonably accesible that I know of) that can go under 6-7 ms (26-27 in KeyboardTest). Would be interesting to see numbers from HHKB2 and Realforce 87U.
« Last Edit: Thu, 04 June 2009, 16:29:01 by Bysheon »

Offline Mr.6502

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« Reply #40 on: Thu, 04 June 2009, 17:03:16 »
Quote from: Bysheon;94217
I think 0.12 was from the java app.

Oh, this is really interesting. Ok so, subtract 20 ms from those Keypress time numbers in KeyboardTest (if that's the case). I'm starting to think keyboards with capacitive switches is the only ones (reasonably accesible that I know of) that can go under 6-7 ms (26-27 in KeyboardTest). Would be interesting to see numbers from HHKB2 and Realforce 87U.


I can try packaging my little program and uploading it so others can try that.  But because of the nature of the timer it uses, it may not be compatible with all computers.  The hardware has to support the timer .NET framework is using for the test.

I just tried it on a second computer and got the same results.  That computer, though much slower, still managed accuracy to within ~280ns according to the timer.  So far the fastest keypress it detected was on my Dell Inspiron 4000's built in keyboard.  4ms.
"Engineers are really good at labeling and branding things ...  If we had named Kentucky Fried Chicken, it would have been Hot Dead Birds."

-Vint Cerf

Offline Bysheon

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« Reply #41 on: Tue, 09 June 2009, 01:23:49 »
Quote from: Mr.6502;94224
I can try packaging my little program and uploading it so others can try that.  But because of the nature of the timer it uses, it may not be compatible with all computers.  The hardware has to support the timer .NET framework is using for the test.

I just tried it on a second computer and got the same results.  That computer, though much slower, still managed accuracy to within ~280ns according to the timer.  So far the fastest keypress it detected was on my Dell Inspiron 4000's built in keyboard.  4ms.


I've been extremely busy the last few days. Had several asignments to hand in.. Done now, finally. Puh.

Interesting. Dell Inspiron 4000 hehe.. Yes, that would be awsome if you did that! Hopefully, depending on the timer compability, it would be possible to have a great tool for comparison.

Offline Manyak

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« Reply #42 on: Tue, 09 June 2009, 02:19:39 »
Enough with these programs, someone go get an oscilloscope out of their garage or something. I know one of you guys have gotta have one lying around :)
Currently Owned:
Filco FKBN104MC/EB - Model M 1390131 \'86 - Model M 1391401 NIB - Unicomp Endurapro NIB - iRocks KR-6230 - Compaq MX-11800 - Cherry G80-8113HRBUS-2 - Cherry ML-4100 - Cherry MY-8000-something - Dell AT101W (Black) - ABS M1 - Siig Minitouch - Chicony KB-5181 w/ SMK Montereys - Chicony KB-5181 w/ SMK Montereys NIB - Cherry G80-3494LYCUS-2 - Deck Legend

Offline abio

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« Reply #43 on: Mon, 15 February 2010, 08:25:09 »
Quote from: Manyak;94888
Enough with these programs, someone go get an oscilloscope out of their garage or something. I know one of you guys have gotta have one lying around :)
But I don't wanna damage my Filco :(

Offline Sig

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« Reply #44 on: Mon, 15 February 2010, 09:31:58 »
keyboards don't make much of a difference for professional gaming
just choose what your comfortable with
i can recommend the old belkin n52

btw usb polling rate makes a huge difference (for the mouse at least)

Offline elbowglue

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« Reply #45 on: Tue, 16 February 2010, 10:59:31 »
Quote from: Bysheon;94885
I've been extremely busy the last few days. Had several asignments to hand in.. Done now, finally. Puh.

Interesting. Dell Inspiron 4000 hehe.. Yes, that would be awsome if you did that! Hopefully, depending on the timer compability, it would be possible to have a great tool for comparison.

Using passmark Keyboardtest 3.0 trial version on my netbook (lenovo s10), the minimum time between keypressess is 12ms for the built in keyboard. (if I hit 2 buttons simultaneously it will register 12ms between them)  I'll test the topre and some other kb's later.

EDIT- WTF, I just changed my processor speed to performance mode (full 1.6mhz at all times) and the minimum time between keypressess is now 6ms.  Inital testing was in energy saver mode.

EDIT 2 OMFG my netbook keyboard has transposition errors.

qew
qew
qew
qew
qew

This is me rolling Q-W-E.  Always comes out as QEW.  ****KKKK.

I think my keyboard is buffering the keys since they are simultaneously pressed, outputting them with 12ms spacing but in incorrect order. ARGHH

Edit 3 - when testing keypress W-E I get accurate results at times, resulting in keypress of 34 ms between pressess.  However, when the computer thinks i did it simultaneously (not neccessarily so) it says I did 6ms between keypresses.  When the keyboard polls me as hitting WE at the same time, it outputs "EW" with 12ms between keystrokes.  When it polls me as hitting W-E (separatley) the fastest I can get is 34ms, resulting in W-E outputted correctly.  Son of a *****.
« Last Edit: Tue, 16 February 2010, 14:58:07 by elbowglue »
My keyboards: Filco Cherry Blue Tenkeyless(daily home), Compaq MX11800 (modded to blacks), Compaq "MX 84u",  Wellington\'s Dampened Endurapro, Pinkalicious Filco Blue Cherry, Chicony KB-5191, Chicony KB-5181, Desko MOS 5023 UP "elbowglue" spos (modded to blues), Siig Minitouch (monterey blue), SMK-88 (blue cherries), Ricercar SPOS
Smallest to biggest keyboards in inches (Length X Height) - Length is most important for a midline mouse position

KBC Poker: 11.6 x 3.9 - HHKB: 11.6 x 4.3 - Siig Minitouch (Geekhack Space Saver): 11.6 x 6 - Deck/Tg3 82: 12 x 6 - Noppoo Choc Mini 12.4 x 5.3 - Compaq "MX 84u": 13.1 x 7.5 - Filco Tenkeyless: 14 x 5.3 - Cherry "ricercar spos" G86-62410EUAGSA: 14 x 7.75 - Topre Realforce 86u: 14.4 x 6.65 - Desko "elbowglue spos" MOS 5023 UP: 14.5 x 8.4 - IBM Model M Spacesaver: 15.3 x 7 - G80-1800: 15.9 x 7.1 - Adesso MKB-125B: 16 x 7.3 - Compaq Mx11800, Cherry G80-11900: 16.25 x 7.5 - Filco Standard: 17.3 x 5.4 - Unicomp Endurapro: 17.9 x 7.1 - Adesso MKB-135B: 18.3 x 6.0 - Cherry G80-3000: 18.5 x 7.6 - IBM Model M, Unicomp Customizer: 19.3 x 8.27

Offline alpslover

  • Posts: 321
Most responsive (fastest) keyboard for gaming
« Reply #46 on: Tue, 16 February 2010, 14:37:43 »
Quote from: elbowglue;158607

EDIT 2 OMFG my netbook keyboard has transposition errors.


this isn't surprising, i've seen quite a number of normal uncastrated laptops with low key scan rates as well.

if you're typing fast enough to see consistent transposition errors, you're using the netbook in a manner for which it is not designed.

Offline kishy

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Most responsive (fastest) keyboard for gaming
« Reply #47 on: Tue, 16 February 2010, 14:42:10 »
Quote from: alpslover;158673
this isn't surprising, i've seen quite a number of normal uncastrated laptops with low key scan rates as well.

if you're typing fast enough to see consistent transposition errors, you're using the netbook in a manner for which it is not designed.


I brought that up with my Dell Inspiron 630m maybe 2 months ago. Dedicated thread but it died quickly.
Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
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Offline elbowglue

  • Posts: 583
Most responsive (fastest) keyboard for gaming
« Reply #48 on: Tue, 16 February 2010, 14:44:07 »
More test results - Passmark Keyboardtest 3.0 - Using Q9550 PC at 4.0ghz running windows XP


MX11800 Via PS2 - No transpositions, simlutaneous press = 2ms, Shortest press = 14ms

Microsoft comfort curve 2000 (rubber dome) via USB - No transpositions, simultaneous = 7ms, Shortest press = 15ms

Topre 86uk via USB - No transpositions, simultaneous press =2ms or 7ms depending on which key combination, shortest press = 7ms

Ricecar SPOS G86 via usb - No transpositions, simultaneous press=2ms, shortest press = 14ms

MX11800 via USB adapter - No transpositions, simultaneous press=2ms, shortest press =  15ms

Filco Pink (non NKRO) Blue cherry vis usb - No transpositions, simultaneous press=2ms, shortest press = 7ms

Lenovo S10 Laptop KB on Intel Atom 1.6ghz running at "max processor speed" - TRANSPOSITION ERRORS - simultaneous press=6ms, shortest press = 36ms

Method - Test for transpositions using credit card rolls using multiple combinations (from left to right, from right to left, up to down, down to up).  Then hit 2 buttons simultaneously for "simultaneous press speed".  Then hit two buttons in very close succession for "shortest press" speed.  The "shortest press" speed must be reversible (thus if you do W-E with 7ms, you must do E-W with 7ms.  If you can't do in the reverse, you're doing it simultaneously).

And yes, my lenovo S10 laptop keyboard still transposes when I use a credit card too.  Good thing is it's laptop KB is so hard to type on it already.  I havent noticed transposition errors in real world typing on my S10, but I haven't been paying attention to it either.  It's like now I know there is something wrong so I'm gonna pick at it until I find it :(
« Last Edit: Tue, 16 February 2010, 14:57:23 by elbowglue »
My keyboards: Filco Cherry Blue Tenkeyless(daily home), Compaq MX11800 (modded to blacks), Compaq "MX 84u",  Wellington\'s Dampened Endurapro, Pinkalicious Filco Blue Cherry, Chicony KB-5191, Chicony KB-5181, Desko MOS 5023 UP "elbowglue" spos (modded to blues), Siig Minitouch (monterey blue), SMK-88 (blue cherries), Ricercar SPOS
Smallest to biggest keyboards in inches (Length X Height) - Length is most important for a midline mouse position

KBC Poker: 11.6 x 3.9 - HHKB: 11.6 x 4.3 - Siig Minitouch (Geekhack Space Saver): 11.6 x 6 - Deck/Tg3 82: 12 x 6 - Noppoo Choc Mini 12.4 x 5.3 - Compaq "MX 84u": 13.1 x 7.5 - Filco Tenkeyless: 14 x 5.3 - Cherry "ricercar spos" G86-62410EUAGSA: 14 x 7.75 - Topre Realforce 86u: 14.4 x 6.65 - Desko "elbowglue spos" MOS 5023 UP: 14.5 x 8.4 - IBM Model M Spacesaver: 15.3 x 7 - G80-1800: 15.9 x 7.1 - Adesso MKB-125B: 16 x 7.3 - Compaq Mx11800, Cherry G80-11900: 16.25 x 7.5 - Filco Standard: 17.3 x 5.4 - Unicomp Endurapro: 17.9 x 7.1 - Adesso MKB-135B: 18.3 x 6.0 - Cherry G80-3000: 18.5 x 7.6 - IBM Model M, Unicomp Customizer: 19.3 x 8.27

Offline alpslover

  • Posts: 321
Most responsive (fastest) keyboard for gaming
« Reply #49 on: Tue, 16 February 2010, 14:44:58 »
Quote from: kishy;158676
I brought that up with my Dell Inspiron 630m maybe 2 months ago. Dedicated thread but it died quickly.


an external keyboard should work fine, as long as it scans its keys quickly enough.  but then that might somewhat defeat the purpose of using a small, portable laptop...