quality of new vs old Model M's?

[davo]

I was thinking about buying a Model M IBM keyboard for my Mac, and I noticed that http://www.clickykeyboard.com still has some that are new old stock.  It's tempting.  I'd have to buy a PS->USB converter, though.  I think the ones I saw for sale were from the mid-90's, and made by Lexmark.  $80 for the ones I saw.

Then there are the Unicomp versions, like the Customizer, which I could get with USB output -- no converter needed.  This also is attractive, but I've heard a couple people say the key molding has a lot of flash, and the picture of one of the keyboards online also seemed to show less-than-clean edges on the keys.  Then again, it wasn't a very good picture.

So I'm hoping you good folks can tell me what you've experienced regarding quality of the new vs. the old.  If the new is up to the level of the Lexmark Model M's, maybe I should wait and see if a new Mighty Mouse is in my future.  :-)

Thanks,

David

[iMav]

personally, I really like the new unicomp boards.  I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the spacesaver and the endurapro (the two currently available models that i have had my hands on).

If anything, they are tighter than the old models.  The single piece keycap are a little lower in quality...but not so much that it has bothered me at all.

I think that a lot of people are waiting on the new mighty mouse.  It is going to generate a lot of conversation here once it is released (good or bad).  

[bhtooefr]

Finish on the Unicomp boards is absolutely lousy.

But how the thing LOOKS isn't nearly as important as how durable it is, and how it types.

Although my Unicomp board is in for service (the right mouse button was acting up,) the buckling spring keyswitches should be extremely durable. And, it types great - in some ways, better than my best 1391401 (which I'm typing this post on.)

Oh, and might I mention... finish isn't so hot on this 1391401 (more misaligned keys than on my EnduraPro,) and my (Lexmark-built) Model M13 is literally the worst quality keyboard I've laid hands on. Sure, it TYPES better than a $2 rubber dome disposable keyboard, but the keys stick, and some of them were even malformed - I actually had to use my 1391401's spacebar on it, because the spacebar that came with it was badly warped. Oh, and the TrackPoint buttons are wired backwards, and the right one doesn't even work, now.

[bigpook]

Finish on the Unicomp boards is absolutely lousy.

But how the thing LOOKS isn't nearly as important as how durable it is, and how it types.

Although my Unicomp board is in for service (the right mouse button was acting up,) the buckling spring keyswitches should be extremely durable. And, it types great - in some ways, better than my best 1391401 (which I'm typing this post on.)

Oh, and might I mention... finish isn't so hot on this 1391401 (more misaligned keys than on my EnduraPro,) and my (Lexmark-built) Model M13 is literally the worst quality keyboard I've laid hands on. Sure, it TYPES better than a $2 rubber dome disposable keyboard, but the keys stick, and some of them were even malformed - I actually had to use my 1391401's spacebar on it, because the spacebar that came with it was badly warped. Oh, and the TrackPoint buttons are wired backwards, and the right one doesn't even work, now.

Dude, that is harsh. I wouldn't say the finish is absolutley lousy. I have 2 unicomp keyboards. One is  the full size, can't remember the part #, but I got it with gray keys, and the windows key. This board has the the key stem with the caps. I love that board. I think it has better action than any of my IBM keyboards I own. Blasphemy, I know.

My most recent unicomp keyboard is a spacesaver, with all black keys. These keys don't come with key caps. I would have preferred the key caps as I think they add to the feel. But I could be imagining that. But the action IS different compared to the one with the keycaps. But I like them both, if I had to pick one, damn, that would be hard.

I took apart the unicomp keyboard to take a look at it, as some people seem to think that the quality is inferior when compared to the IBM keyboards. The unicomp has a single metal plate on the bottom which is not as thick/heavy as the IBM. Is this a bad thing? Only if you want it to be.  It is still a buckling spring keyboard. Yeah, I wish the unicomps had a  keyboard cable that disconnected, but what are you going to do. They don't make them that way. Everything else seemed well thought out and well made.

There are some artifacts on the back of the keys that are visible from the manufacturing process. I have taken pictures of this but the pictures really exaggerate it. Besides, the artifacts are on the back of the keys. You simply cannot see them when you are using the keyboard.

Sometimes you need to take the negativity with a grain of salt.
The people that write/post about their keyboards are a different breed. I know, I am one of them. Most people could care less about keycaps, springs, switches and so on. The point is that sometimes we tend to look a little bit to close at these things.

The question at the end of it all is if you enjoy typing on your keyboard of choice. That is the end game, at least for me.

Typing this at work on my HHKB lite, time to program another phone switch, later.

[bhtooefr]

Let me put it this way...

I've seen better injection molding on $1 toys at the dollar store.

So, the finish IS lousy on the Unicomp boards.

But, like you said...

The question at the end of it all is if you enjoy typing on your keyboard of choice. That is the end game, at least for me.

And that is why I paid $99 for my EnduraPro, and why I'd do it again.

[ashort]

Typing this at work on my HHKB lite, time to program another phone switch, later.

(Thread hijack warning)

Hey Bigpook, what kind of phone switch?

[bigpook]

(Thread hijack warning)

Hey Bigpook, what kind of phone switch?

NEC, I do 2000 IPS and IPK II.

[bigpook]

Let me put it this way...

I've seen better injection molding on $1 toys at the dollar store.

So, the finish IS lousy on the Unicomp boards.

But, like you said...



And that is why I paid $99 for my EnduraPro, and why I'd do it again.

I guess so, you seem to have a pretty strong opinion when it comes to injection molding. So I won't argue. I read your review on the wiki, your endura pro looks worse when compared to my spacesaver, I would have called Jim Owens at Unicomp and asked for a new board, or at least a new top and bottom.
They keys look about the same. Did yours come with key caps?

[davo]

Let me put it this way...
[...]

And that is why I paid $99 for my EnduraPro, and why I'd do it again.

Cool.  But you wouldn't pay $80 for a new-in-box Lexmark Model M from clickykeyboard?  I'm just wondering about the old-vs-new comparison.  By the way, it's great getting the straight dope from you all.

David

[bhtooefr]

For a new-in-box Lexmark Model M? No. I prefer typing on an IBM or Unicomp, and I can get a Unicomp Customizer 101 for $59.

I will note that my EnduraPro is currently being repaired, due to mouse button issues, so maybe they'll replace the case while they're at it. It's all cosmetic, though - the surface looks horribly uneven, but it isn't.

Interestingly, a few of the keys on mine ARE two-piece - IIRC, Ctrl, Alt, and the Windows keys. Most are one-piece, though.

[bigpook]

Cool.  But you wouldn't pay $80 for a new-in-box Lexmark Model M from clickykeyboard?  I'm just wondering about the old-vs-new comparison.  By the way, it's great getting the straight dope from you all.

David

I don't think I ever said that. I have Model M's of questionable origin and I like them. But they are not NEW, some of them , a Model M spacesave in particular that I got off of ebay seems to have had a lot of use. The action is quick and loose, not in a bad way. Just different. The unicomp keyboards are NEW with no mileage on them. They just feel tighter to me, which I like.
YMMV.
A NIB Lexmark from clickykeyboard would be interesting to try out. So to answer your question, yes, I would pay $80 for a new-in-box Lexmark Model M keyboard. But I really like buckling spring keyboards, others here may totally disagree with me on the above mentioned.

[bigpook]

My unicomp customer keyboard with the gray keys do have keycaps. I bought it about a year ago. My unicomp spacesave with black keys do not have key caps.

[iMav]

My most recent unicomp keyboard is a spacesaver, with all black keys. These keys don't come with key caps. I would have preferred the key caps as I think they add to the feel. But I could be imagining that. But the action IS different compared to the one with the keycaps. But I like them both, if I had to pick one, damn, that would be hard.

I've done some swapping around between old and new Model M's...Those keys (with or without separate keycaps) are interchangeable.  (with the one exception being the Endurapro...specifically the keys right next to the trackpoint)

So, if you feel that you like the keys with the separate keycaps better (or if others simply feel that the quality of the old keycaps is better), buy a used Model M for it's keys and swap them.

[bhtooefr]

However, if it's a SpaceSaver, you have to run the spacebar and Windows keys that come on it. (Then again, the spacebar is always capless, anyway, and it's not like the Windows keys are used THAT heavily.)

Of course, it's got all-black keys... so he'd have to borrow keys from a black Model M13, and IIRC, those are one-piece, too.

[bigpook]

I've done some swapping around between old and new Model M's...Those keys (with or without separate keycaps) are interchangeable.  (with the one exception being the Endurapro...specifically the keys right next to the trackpoint)

So, if you feel that you like the keys with the separate keycaps better (or if others simply feel that the quality of the old keycaps is better), buy a used Model M for it's keys and swap them.

I read my previous post and probably need to clarify. I have a unicomp board with the key stem and cap and it has  a certain action to it. My newer unicomp board has just the key stem, it has a different feel to it. Is it the key cap? I don't know.
 I have some Model M's here with the key caps. I should swap them out and try it.
What would be cool, is some kind of blind test to see if I could really tell the difference. Or is it all in my mind.

Anyone else out there that think there is a difference with having key caps versus not having them?

[iMav]

Of course, it's got all-black keys... so he'd have to borrow keys from a black Model M13, and IIRC, those are one-piece, too.

Assuming he cares about how it looks.  

I've got two 84-key spacesavers with the one-piece keys and one with the separate key caps.  I can not tell the difference between the two.  I have to pull a key to tell which is which.


BTW, who has spoken with Jim over at Unicomp most-recently?  Any update on the Mighty Mouse replacement??  

[zerogravitas]

I have a USB Unicomp Spacesaver myself.  I would concur that injection molding is perhaps not as good as the original IBMs.  The key action does feel different as well.  Not in a bad way necessarily, but it is different (I like it in fact).

Despite this issue, I would still use Unicomps over 99% of the other keyboards out there.

[iMav]

Anyone else out there that think there is a difference with having key caps versus not having them?

The old one piece and the old two piece keys feel the same to me.  Similarly, the new one piece and new two piece keys from Unicomp feel the same.  The old and new feel different...but I think that is strictly due to the texture difference of the keys.

[bigpook]

k, I pulled the gray keys off of my other unicomp board, the one with the key caps. Man, it makes a difference. I can feel it straight away. I am typing on it now and the difference is noticeable too me. cool!

I can't believe you don't feel the difference iMav.   I need to type some more.

I replaced all of the keys with the exception of the windows keys, they look better in black.  Its making a difference to me. I am a happy camper : )

[bigpook]

Ok, I will wrap this up. This is all my opinion but here is what I am finding.

All buckling spring keyboards are not the same.

Age and use make a difference.

Key caps versus no Key caps makes a difference.

Granted the differences are subtle and may make NO difference to most people. But I am not most people. Each of my Model M's have their own personality. Which puts me in the position of favoring one over the other.

My favorite keyboard is either the Unicomp Customer or Spacesaver, as long as the keys have the caps on them. If anyone has black keys with key caps that they are looking to sell, let me know.
Right behind that would be my IBM Model M spacesaver, which has key caps. Its a Lexmark keyboard made in 1994.

I have another Model M spacesaver that does not have key caps  and this is my least favorite keyboard. I will probably end up putting it up on ebay.

Sorry for flogging a dead horse on this, But I wanted to share my experiences.

On a side note, I have an email over to Jim asking on the status of the Mighty Mouse. I will let you know when he responds.

[xsphat]

Each of my Model M's have their own personality.

That, my friend, is what got me here in the first place. I wrote a story not too long ago on my Model M (which I got for FREE from a local computer store) and it has a different feel and mood than anything else I've written. I can say that about all my favorite keyboards.

[xyzzy]

My favorite keyboard is either the Unicomp Customer or Spacesaver, as long as the keys have the caps on them. If anyone has black keys with key caps that they are looking to sell, let me know.

There's a weird UNICOMP/SMARTREX (mostly) black keyboard on eBay now, it's new and pretty cheap.

I'm not sure if it's usable on a desktop PC (looks like it has a PS/2 style + another RJ45 connector) or if it has one or two pieces keys, but may be interesting to someone.

On a side note, there are a few Unicomp Mighty Mouse (the current model) NIB for sale starting at $0.99. Rubber dome but still an interesting keyboard. Just enter "Unicomp" in the ebay.com search field and they'll show up

[Waves77]

Each of my Model M's feels *slightly* different to me (I could probably tell them apart blind folded) - yet they all most definitely have that Model M feel to them that no other keyboard has.

Funny thing is that my favorite is still the very first one I got (a '91 1391401 with a grey logo)

[bigpook]

Each of my Model M's feels *slightly* different to me (I could probably tell them apart blind folded) - yet they all most definitely have that Model M feel to them that no other keyboard has.

Funny thing is that my favorite is still the very first one I got (a '91 1391401 with a grey logo)

I agree about the Model M feel. We could argue what is meant by *slightly* I suppose. For me the difference's in feel and action, let alone sound are obvious.
The funny thing is that I don't have bat like hearing, and that I work with my hands. Its not like I am a concert pianist, with the most delicate fingers. You would think they would lack the ability to discern any difference  between keyboards. But it is what it is and I can tell the difference.
Typing this on a Lexmark Model M spacesaver made in 1994.

[bhtooefr]

There's a weird UNICOMP/SMARTREX (mostly) black keyboard on eBay now, it's new and pretty cheap.

I'm not sure if it's usable on a desktop PC (looks like it has a PS/2 style + another RJ45 connector) or if it has one or two pieces keys, but may be interesting to someone.

Take a look at this (my emphasis:)

This is a heavy duty keyboard and I have been told by my computer repair person that this is not a "clicky keyboard".

Most likely, single-piece keys, might even be non-removable.