Am I left alone ?

[Fabien]

Hello everyone,

Fabien here, new Geekhack member. Before going on with my thread, I should introduce myself. I'm a 28 years old computer enthousiast, and I'm French (but don't hold that against me).

I've been using computers since age 7, and never stopped since. Of course, I've typed milions of keys since that age, but for some reason, I never looked into typing comfort until now. Maybe I'm getting old ? Who knows. Anyways, I'm currently typing this on a Logitech X-Slim keyboard, which I found to be the best keyboard ever made, until I realized earlier this month that I fooled myself all these years.

I thought the laptop feeling was the best, so much that I bought two of these toys in case something went wrong with mine. Then we switched to Dell keyboards at work (not mechanical, but with thicker keys), and my girlfriend lost her job. Those two facts are not connected of course, but it made me realize something :

- I type waaaay faster on the Dell keyboards we have at work compared to my Logitech one
- My current keyboard feels like it's goint to break any minute since my gf started using it profusely searching for a new job.

I should point out the fact that I work in a computer shop, and I code PHP as a hobby. So I've got my hands on keyboards ALL. THE. TIME.

Anyways, I've been looking more and more at mechanical keyboards, and after reading many articles and posts, I've been interested in these four models :

- Cherry G80-3000
- Topre Realforce 87u
- Happy Hacking
- Scorpius M10

The HH will probably jump out the list soon as I'm pretty sure the compact layout won't fill my needs.

Anyways, back to the topic, and here is the real question.

Appart from the Cherry, which I could get from a local vendor for around 80 EUR, Is there any way at all to get the Topre or the Scorpius in AZERTY layout ?

I'm considering taking appart the whole thing, remount it and configure the layout the way I want. But I've read that AZERTY keyboards have more keys than the QWERTY ones, the " " key, which is crucial to me. So there is my dilema.

I hope you guys will be able to help me. And thanks for all the precious infos there already is in the forum !!

[quadibloc]

Appart from the Cherry, which I could get from a local vendor for around 80 EUR, Is there any way at all to get the Topre or the Scorpius in AZERTY layout ?

I'm considering taking appart the whole thing, remount it and configure the layout the way I want. But I've read that AZERTY keyboards have more keys than the QWERTY ones, the "< >" key, which is crucial to me. So there is my dilema.

I have to admit I'm not sure I understand your question.

If what you want is a keyboard with the ISO layout, that is, one with the extra key between Z and the left-hand shift, my understanding is that all the major Japanese keyboard vendors who sell keyboards for export, and thus who don't only make keyboards with the Japanese layout, make European versions of their keyboards in addition to U. S. ones.

To change a U. K. keyboard with QWERTY to a German keyboard with QWERTZ or a French keyboard with AZERTY, you need to do exactly nothing to the keyboard: the assignment of scan codes to characters is done within the computer. Of course, it would be nice to change the keycaps around too; there, you do have a problem, since on virtually all keyboards these days, the keys in different rows have a different slope, because the keyboard is sculptured.

But you should be able to order an ISO keyboard with a French layout from any of the suppliers of fancy keyboards - including the U.S. firm Unicomp, which makes a current version of the IBM Model M buckling spring keyboard; that's definitely one of their standard products.

[chimera15]

Yeah, just get a scorpius m10, and change the layout with the keyboard driver.  That's your cheapest and best way out.

[Fabien]

Awesome. Not being able to physically change the layout of the keys is a valuable info. Thanks for the help guys.

My best choice is to get the Cherry, as it's already in AZERTY layout. Problem is I don't know if it's the blue or brown keyswitch model I'll be getting as there are no more information on my vendor's site.

[Fabien]

If what you want is a keyboard with the ISO layout, that is, one with the extra key between Z and the left-hand shift, my understanding is that all the major Japanese keyboard vendors who sell keyboards for export, and thus who don't only make keyboards with the Japanese layout, make European versions of their keyboards in addition to U. S. ones.

Got a good addy to recommend ?

To change a U. K. keyboard with QWERTY to a German keyboard with QWERTZ or a French keyboard with AZERTY, you need to do exactly nothing to the keyboard: the assignment of scan codes to characters is done within the computer. Of course, it would be nice to change the keycaps around too; there, you do have a problem, since on virtually all keyboards these days, the keys in different rows have a different slope, because the keyboard is sculptured.

Maybe I should try and sand the keys off ?

[lowpoly]

Welcome to Geekhack. I wonder why there are not more members from France.

You usually can't exchange keycaps between different rows because of the different keycap slope.

Awesome. Not being able to physically change the layout of the keys is a valuable info. Thanks for the help guys.

My best choice is to get the Cherry, as it's already in AZERTY layout. Problem is I don't know if it's the blue or brown keyswitch model I'll be getting as there are no more information on my vendor's site.

Get the Cherry model number from the vendor. It should be something like G80-3000LPCFR. The P means linear (black) switches. LQCFR would be tactile/clear stems. LSCFR would be clicky/blue. Browns are rare.

As Cherry 'boards do not use plate mounting for the switches you can mod them to other variants without soldering.

[keyb_gr]

Same reason why Americans don't post on French bulletin boards.

Spot on. It's a plain ol' language problem.

French layout G80s are only made with black (linear) switches BTW.

[Fabien]

Aww that sucks. I wish I could get my hands on a brown or blue switches keyboard.

So I'm stuck

[keyb_gr]

Browns are pretty hard to get over here, they are mainly used on some specialty boards. They have never been a standard option for the G80-3000, just blues and clears there.

What you could try is obtain both a French layout G80 with blacks and a German or UK layout one with blues, and then do a keycap swap. Not the cheapest option but probably still less costly than obtaining a bunch of blue switches separately.

[chimera15]

Aww that sucks. I wish I could get my hands on a brown or blue switches keyboard.

So I'm stuck

Scorpius m10's are blues, and usually very cheap...just get an m10.

[ch_123]

Another vote for the Unicomp Customizer, which can be ordered with an AZERTY layout for no extra cost.. Shipping will be high enough, but even taking that into account, they're still one of the cheaper mechanical keyboards, and arguably one of the best. Alternatively you could try finding some French IBM Model Ms on ebay (p/n 1391402)

That, or learn the US International layout like a lot of European members around here have ended up doing in the end.

I'm considering taking appart the whole thing, remount it and configure the layout the way I want. But I've read that AZERTY keyboards have more keys than the QWERTY ones, the "< >" key, which is crucial to me. So there is my dilema.

Quadibloc touched on this, but allow me to elaborate further. There are two international standards for the physical placement of buttons on a keyboard - ISO and ANSI. These are seperate from the standards which dictate what these buttons actually do. So a British QWERTY, French AZERTY and German QWERTZ have different key function layouts, but use the same ISO standard location  of keys.





You can see that whilst the buttons are mapped to different things, they all the same amount of keys and they are placed in the same place.

This is an ANSI keyboard -




You can see that it's missing the key between left shift and Z, and the button that would be beside Enter on an ISO keyboard is now above it. If you plug such a keyboard into a computer with a French layout, it would act like any other French keyboard despite what the keys might say, but you would lose your >< button because there is no such button on the keyboard.

You'd either have to -

1) Map >< to other key(s)
2) Switch to a keymap layout suitable for an ISO keyboard, such as US International. US Internation has all the appropriate symbols and accents that you'd find on your French keyboard, but you'd have to memorize where they are, and they require modifiers such as Alt Gr to access.

[Fabien]

humm... thanks again for the input.

So.. Let's say I get my hands (somehow) on a blank ISO keyboard. That could solve my problem right ?

[keyb_gr]

So.. Let's say I get my hands (somehow) on a blank ISO keyboard. That could solve my problem right ?

That would be one way to do it, yes. Just not looking at the labels would be another (sometimes one does need them, like for the numbers row). In either case the board won't care about its labels, it generates its scancodes for each key position and the system interprets them according to the language settings.

[sixty]

By the way, I'm not sure if these guys ship within Europe (it should be the same price) but there has been a Belgian-French G80 on eBay Germany for months now, they have over 10 in stock at 40 Euros:

http://cgi.ebay.de/NEU-CHERRY-Tastatur-G80-3000-MX-USB-Belgien_W0QQitemZ350290643477QQcmdZViewItemQQptZM%C3%A4use_Tastaturen?hash=item518ef30a15

Maybe you can contact them to see if they are willing to ship it to France too.

[Fabien]

Wow that's pretty impressive ripster. I don't know yet if I'd do such a mod. I'd rather find an old Model M here. That being said, I don't even know if I'd like using such a loud keyboard. That's what I liked about the HH or even the MX blue/brown, it's clicky but not THAT clicky

[Fabien]

Thanks for the tip Sixty, I've sent the seller a message.

[ch_123]

In case it hasn't been mentioned, Keyboard Co in England is going to be selling blank, ISO layout Cherry G80s in January. Bare in mind that their click action (blue Cherry) boards are loud, but not nearly as loud as a Model M.

[Fabien]

In case it hasn't been mentioned, Keyboard Co in England is going to be selling blank, ISO layout Cherry G80s in January. Bare in mind that their click action (blue Cherry) boards are loud, but not nearly as loud as a Model M.

Yay ! You've just made my day !!

[patrickgeekhack]

Yay ! You've just made my day !!

Congratulations! I like France a lot, and will be perfectly happy living there. But, I will never get used to the AZERTY layout.

[itlnstln]

I wish someone would carry blank Cherry 'boards here in the US. *cough* elitekeyboards *cough*

[ricercar]

the board won't care about its labels, it generates its scancodes for each key position and the system interprets them according to the language settings.

Can someone recommend a good scan code reference?

Nevermind. I started one. Linky.

[nicolaq]

Hi, another French guy (working in Belgium) here !
While also in search of a good keyboard, I don't have the layout
problem since I use Dvorak.

But it is still dreadfully hard to find mechanical keyboards around
here. We do have some sources for Cherry & Filco, like keyboardco,
and getDigital.de for the Das, plus the finnish vekkaukauppa for Topre
if you're hardcore. But I am yet to find a way to get the "low-cost"
versions like ABS, I-Rocks, Ione and such that seem confined to
the US.
If anyone knows of some stores or vendors that have these and
are located or ship to Europe, you'd do us all Europeans a huge
favour.

[InSanCen]

I am fairly sure that Bruce at keyboardco.com takes European orders. Not sure if he has anything you want other than Filco and Cherry though.

[idlecoder]

Hi all ! Another one from France (so, excuse my English ;-))
Fabien : you are NOT alone... since many guys around here are, like you, looking for good keyboards...
But, to be honest, I am looking for a long time now to find the keyboard which will fit all my needs... To be direct, I found only two keyboards in French AZERTY for sell : Unicomp and Cherry G80-3000.
The problem is (for me) that Unicomp uses buckling-spring and so makes too much noise for my working environment... The Cherry G80 sold in France (try to look at materiel.net) uses black Cherry switches : linear touch.
As far as I know, there is no Cherry G80-3000 in French AZERTY with another kind of switches (I need brown or blue)...
So, if you do not need to look at your keyboard while typing on  (ie : you remap your UK or DE keyboard in French inside your operating system), you can try the following :
1/ Filco majestouch UK (http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_details.asp?PRODUCT=646)
2/ Cherry LSCDE / LSCUK / LQCDE / LQCUK...
3/ Keytronic KT2001 UK (which is NOT mechanical but I just love this keyboard)
4/ DAS model S, ultimate EU (blank caps)
5/ Steelseries 7G

The DAS has a problem for me : the function key that replaces the left windows key... I use too many shortcuts on my Linux box with the left windows key to loose it. The 7G uses also black MX switches and is not a true ISO layout (little backspace key)...
You can easily find the Cherry DE on amazon.de, cheaper than the FR in France (around 70€ with transport) and all other on keyboardco... But just keep an eye on the transport price...

Honestly, I thought I could use an US ANSI keyboard with international software layout... But half part of my job is to write french reports... I tried to remap my french keyboard for 1 week and stopped : impossible to write a report quickly with this mapping, I need a French layout... :-(

Sorry for this long post, but as I'm here... I'll ask a question too ;-) I am currently looking for a new keyboard. I have a keytronic KT2001 and an old mechanical Dell, but both are too big for my desk. The perfect keyboard should be a Filco tenkeyless but in 88 keys... ie : an ISO layout (UK, FR, DE...) but without the keypad. I found many keyboards but no one is mechanical (I am looking for brown or blue MX)... If anyone knows about such a keyboard... I take it !

edit : I've omitted DAS and 7G

[ch_123]

There is talk of Keyboard Co stock 88-key Filcos, but they have said that this is not likely to happen for another few months.

I don't think there are any mechanical, tenkeyless keyboards with Windows keys available in the French layout, or indeed in any ANSI layout.

An option - there's a retailer in Finland who sells 105-key Topre Realforces. They are in Finnish layout, but this has the same ANSI layout as the French one, so if you are a touch typist, this probably won't be an issue.

I think they ship outside of Finland, but the main issue is that Topres are very expensive - €190.

[Mental Hobbit]

Here's a lot of new French G81s with doubleshots for sale btw, in case somebody would like to mod G80s to French layout.

[idlecoder]

I have seen a retailer's website with topre realforce 105 keys... However, I can definitively not pay a keyboard more than 200€ (including transport and taxes...).
I think I will try a filco brown-MX in UK layout which is 140€ already... and wait for an hypothetical 88keys (yes, I need 2 kb...)
Modding a G80 could be a solution... but I need black keyboards if possible... (who said geek's wife needs ?)

[idlecoder]

Ok, I spent more time on this board and saw a reply from Bruce (keyboardco) who said UK tenkeyless layout was planned... but not before Christmas... I think I will have to wait and buy it for home ;-)
I've seen that UK Filco with brown switches was no longer available at this time... *arg* ! I was supposed to command it this week for work !
I have seen several times users saying that this shop was great, so I hope they will have stock soon...
For the moment, I will try to repair my spacebar on my old Dell black ALPS...

[EverythingIBM]

Actually, I think baking a croissant is easier than "cutting" apart a keyboard.