IBM Model M Space Saver Pricing

[skcheng]

I hope this is the correct to place to ask about pricing??

What the going prices for used and new Model M space savers?   I see that the last few new ones on Ebay have sold for over $200.   And I see that they're sold out on the keyboard sites.

Thx,

skc

[itlnstln]

I think they have cooled off a bit, but still expect to pay in the $125 to $150 range for one, though.

[skcheng]

I think they have cooled off a bit, but still expect to pay in the $125 to $150 range for one, though.

Is that for a new board?   Or is that a general range for the Model M space saver in general?  

thx

[kriminal]

just saw one going for 130usd on ebay...

[itlnstln]

Is that for a new board?   Or is that a general range for the Model M space saver in general?  

thx

I think it's just in the general range for any Space Saver that comes up.  Definitely expect to pay more for something NIB, though.

[Shadin]

Yeah, $100-$150 is the price I've been seeing.  I really, really want one of them, but unfortunately that's out of my price range at the moment for unnecessary items.

[microsoft windows]

I'd rather just have one with the number pad. It's paying less for an extra feature. Sounds logical to me.

Kind of funny how my Model M is much rarer than any space saver and I got it for free.

[didjamatic]

I recently sold 2 used space savers at .01 and No Reserve.  One went for $76 and one for $94.  The cheaper one was missing a height adjuster and both were uncleaned but in good used condition.

[skcheng]

I recently sold 2 used space savers at .01 and No Reserve.  One went for $76 and one for $94.  The cheaper one was missing a height adjuster and both were uncleaned but in good used condition.

You don't have any more for sale do you Didj???

[skcheng]

I'd rather just have one with the number pad. It's paying less for an extra feature. Sounds logical to me.

Kind of funny how my Model M is much rarer than any space saver and I got it for free.

I like the size of the space saver and the cool way to activate the number pad towards the right side of the keyboard.   I don't need one, but it would nice to add one to the collection.

[skcheng]

just saw one going for 130usd on ebay...

That's the one I'm looking at and considering  ;-)))

[didjamatic]

Nope, those were the only 2 space savers I had.

[kishy]

I'd rather just have one with the number pad. It's paying less for an extra feature. Sounds logical to me.

Kind of funny how my Model M is much rarer than any space saver and I got it for free.

While I generally agree with this (because I use the numpad, be it as a numpad or not), I'll play "devil's advocate" here.

To the type of person who would buy a 'tenkeyless' keyboard, the lack of a number pad is itself an additional feature. They want their mouse closer to their keyboard, or their keyboard tray is very small, or something like this. Perhaps they prefer scissor-switch separate numpads instead, or just want to have a separate numpad to move around as needed. Or they could be minimalists (aka "crazies") who just want everything to be the minimal amount of what it could be (iPad et al).

[bigpook]

I think they just look cool without the numpad.

[itlnstln]

I think they just look cool without the numpad.

Conformist.  Numpad-hater.

[skcheng]

Conformist.  Numpad-hater.

Wouldn't a full keyboard lover be more of a conformist??   Seems like the price and rarity of the space saver (compared to the ubiquitous nature of the standard Model M)  screams individuality and progressive thinking   :tongue:

[Phaedrus2129]

I prefer the original Model M. The greater length adds that extra weight and leverage needed to really crack someone's skull, you know what I mean?

[kriminal]

I prefer the original Model M. The greater length adds that extra weight and leverage needed to really crack someone's skull, you know what I mean?

sounds like an ms windows quote there, me i prefer kb's with out numpads..

[skcheng]

SK, don't listen to these dweebs.

The IBM Space Saving Keyboard is the KING OF KEYBOARDS!

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T-shirt not included.

Very cool!!   Especially the grey one.   Which one is your favorite?   Are they all basically the same??   Does the add-on number pad work with these keyboards?

thx,

skc

[maxlugar]

SK, don't listen to these dweebs.

The IBM Space Saving Keyboard is the KING OF KEYBOARDS!

SK, don't listen to this dweeb either, the IBM PC AT 84-key Model F is, and always will be the King of Keyboards



Nothing else compares to buckling springs over capacitive contact key switches.  Bag the Model M without the number pad and try the King of Keyboards.

Or, if you're hell bent on getting a keyboard with a small footprint, get yourself a Happy Hacking Professional 2 keyboard.  The Topre capacitive key switches don't click, but the typing experience is excellent.

Disclaimer:  My collection includes a wide variety of Model Ms but I have not acquired nor typed on a Model M Space Saver.  The smaller footprint may provide some advantages related to mousing, etc, but the Model M's buckling springs over membrane key switches feel flat and dull in comparison to the Model F.

PS:  Model F keyboards were not assembled using plastic rivets and will never require a "nuts and bolts" mod.

PPS:  ripster owns a pristine NIB IBM PC AT 84-key Model F and I bet he would make you a smokin' deal  

[EverythingIBM]

The one I modded with nuts/bolts feels the best.  It also has the weird hieroglyphic APL keys for my anti-Otaku moods.

I think you may be thinking of the M4 optional numpad - entirely different beast.

Hieroglyphics? Some of the symbols actually look cyrillic to me (especially the г). Although, the resolution is too low, so, I can't fully tell.

[HaaTa]

Unless he's talking about the Mikmaq or Chinese languages he's just being an illiterate/lazy american. Cause last time I checked Cleopatra didn't use a keyboard to chat with Mark Antony.

[maxlugar]

My Model F reminds me of my departed Father In Law's Cadillac DeVille.  Nice ride but antiquated.

Very funny, and your analogy is spot on ...  if you are referring to the 83-key PC/XT Model F.

Far from antiquated, the 84-key seamlessly integrates with any modern PC.  I'm typing on one now connected to an HP Compaq 8510W laptop without a "blue cube" ps2 to USB converter.  (the docking station has a ps/2 keyboard port).

Yeah, the layout is antiquated, but it's a small trade off for a superior typing experience.

[ch_123]

But it doesn't have an integrated trackball!

[Runs for Cover]

[HaaTa]

Why would I need that?

[ch_123]

Because I found one in a bin, and therefore every other keyboard sucks. Oh, and I like dead rabbits.

And yes, what the hell is the deal with Arch Hurd anyway? Why couldn't they make something useful like Arch Solaris or Arch FreeBSD?

[HaaTa]

Lol

[Rajagra]

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It was just a matter of time before the keyboard pyramid schemes started here...

[ch_123]

I hear if you keep your Model M in a pyramid, the springs never wear out.

[itlnstln]

It was just a matter of time before the keyboard pyramid schemes started here...

Hmm... the Church of Keyboardtology.  I'm your host, L. Don Cupboard.

[spremino]

The IBM Space Saving Keyboard is the KING OF KEYBOARDS!

Indeed it is since - unlike recent wannabes, if I'm not mistaken - it does not lack its numpad. It just places it somewhere else.

I agree about the Model F maybe feeling nicer, but outdated by now.

Why? Why? Why isn't Unicomp able to promote its great keyboards as deserved? :-(

[itlnstln]

Indeed it is since - unlike recent wannabes, if I'm not mistaken - it does not lack its numpad. It just places it somewhere else.

This.  The IBM Space Saving and the Topre Realforce do this right.  I wish Filco would follow suit.

[didjamatic]

I thought this was the King of Keyboards... the IBM Displaywriter Beam Spring.

[spremino]

I thought this was the King of Keyboards... the IBM Displaywriter Beam Spring.

You've made your point. Maybe the BS enthusiasts should say the Space Saver is the king (or queen) of tenkeyless keyboards ;-)

[sethstorm]

The only Space Saver I'd go for.

[kishy]

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The only Space Saver I'd go for.

Aha, but AFAIK the majority of those are a type of rubber dome.

[skcheng]

The one I modded with nuts/bolts feels the best.  It also has the weird hieroglyphic APL keys for my anti-Otaku moods.

I think you may be thinking of the M4 optional numpad - entirely different beast.

I see.   You're right, the keypad is for the M4.   Did IBM make a separate number pad for the space saver?    Not that I would need one.   Just curious.    At work, we enter a LOT of numbers and the number pad comes in handy.    Otherwise, I just don't need it.

[skcheng]

SK, don't listen to this dweeb either, the IBM PC AT 84-key Model F is, and always will be the King of Keyboards



Nothing else compares to buckling springs over capacitive contact key switches.  Bag the Model M without the number pad and try the King of Keyboards.

Or, if you're hell bent on getting a keyboard with a small footprint, get yourself a Happy Hacking Professional 2 keyboard.  The Topre capacitive key switches don't click, but the typing experience is excellent.

Disclaimer:  My collection includes a wide variety of Model Ms but I have not acquired nor typed on a Model M Space Saver.  The smaller footprint may provide some advantages related to mousing, etc, but the Model M's buckling springs over membrane key switches feel flat and dull in comparison to the Model F.

PS:  Model F keyboards were not assembled using plastic rivets and will never require a "nuts and bolts" mod.

PPS:  ripster owns a pristine NIB IBM PC AT 84-key Model F and I bet he would make you a smokin' deal  

Interesting looking keyboard.   Layout is sorta odd with the tiny backspace and Fn keys on the left of the board.    So does this keyboard feel more like a Reaflforce/HHKB2 or an IBM BS keyboard?  

What do these sell for?   A quick search on ebay only turned up the 83 key model?

[skcheng]

I thought this was the King of Keyboards... the IBM Displaywriter Beam Spring.

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Is this thing as enormous as it looks?   Like a big pillow??   Hey, does that speaker work??   I like keyboards with integrated sound.    This Displaywriter could house a nice subwoofer.

[didjamatic]

My Space Saver has 87 keys and goes Thock Thock Thock.

[sethstorm]

Aha, but AFAIK the majority of those are a type of rubber dome.

Extra keys and the arrow layout are what make it worth it.

3 questions:
* How bad of a rubber dome?
* Are they key-interchangeable w/ other rubber dome Model M's (e.g. Unicomp's SmartTrex)?
* How easy is it to tell between the rubber dome ones and buckling spring ones?

At the very least, that space saver makes up for the missing keys.  If you really wanted to be a masochist, you could put the numpad up there.

[itlnstln]

* How easy is it to tell between the rubber dome ones and buckling spring ones?

Other than knowing/researching the model numbers, just by looking, it would be pretty hard to tell, IMO.  IIRC, IBM (et. al.) used basically the same overall design for the keycaps as the buckling spring models but modified them to press the dome (there's a pic somewhere around here).

[didjamatic]

Is this thing as enormous as it looks?   Like a big pillow??   Hey, does that speaker work??   I like keyboards with integrated sound.    This Displaywriter could house a nice subwoofer.

Yes, it's pretty big. A few people on here have them, but no protocol translator has been made for it to be usable on a modern system.  But kbdbabel wants to make a translator for it.  Mine is going on the wall until someone makes a translator, then it will replace my Topre as my daily driver.  The beam spring mechanism is a dream to type on.

[sethstorm]

Other than knowing/researching the model numbers, just by looking, it would be pretty hard to tell, IMO.  IIRC, IBM (et. al.) used basically the same overall design for the keycaps as the buckling spring models but modified them to press the dome (there's a pic somewhere around here).

If it's like the Smart-Trex ones, I'm fine w/ that.

[skcheng]

Back to IBM Model M Space Saver, which model year would be most/least desirable?   Do these fall in line with the Standard model M during the years of production?    Pretty much the same thing?    

I think I might be picking up two of these today?    I don't mind paying top dollar for things that I enjoy, but I hate paying "over" top dollar if ya know what I mean.   I totally understand that items like the Space Saver are priced by the market.  

Thx

[itlnstln]

Check out the "Did Quality Decline?" thread in the Keyboard Mods forum.  I think you'll find that it really doesn't matter what year or manufacturer your Model M is from.  They're all about the same, especially mechanically.

[sethstorm]

And the 122 Key?   Even on my monster keyboard tray it barely leaves room for a trackball.

The Model F AT is a perfect example that obsessing over switches doesn't make for the best keyboard.

The Terminal Model F's make up for the layout-related shortcomings.

Of course, they aren't for everyone, but they do make certain combinations(Model F in a sturdy case) usable.

[itlnstln]

The Model F AT is a perfect example that obsessing over switches doesn't make for the best keyboard.

Agreed.  I don't think throwing more keys at the problem is a suitable solution.  Even if someone could get a beam spring keyboard to work on a modern computer, what the hell would you do with it?  It certainly isn't usable.

[sethstorm]

?

Another keyboard that looks more impressive in the pictures than in actual use.

Especially that Nav cluster.

Mostly fixed in terms of appearance/usability.  Yes, I'm going to call Unicomp for some blanks - but the ISO-sized Enter/Shift are the stubborn ones in that regard.

It took a bit of getting used to, I'd admit.  But it is usable as a daily driver.  

Again, I reiterate that it is not for everybody.

[maxlugar]

I hear if you keep your Model M in a pyramid, the springs never wear out.

True.  But the springs on the 84-key Model Fs don't require a pyramid to last forever.

[skcheng]

I would just bite the bullet and get a NIB one instead of two used ones.  In general it would be rare to find one with worn springs but the NIB ones means you don't have to worry about broken rivets, epoxy fixes, biohazard materials, and dogs having pissed on your keyboard.

I agree and if I end up liking the board, I'll definitely look for a NIB one.  But I'm kinda having fun cleaning/fixing up boards.   Just something to do as a distraction from my stressful day job.  

Supposedly the keyboards came from a smoke and animal free home  LOL.

[maxlugar]

Hmm... the Church of Keyboardtology.  I'm your host, L. Don Cupboard.

Now, now, let's be respectful of a "religion" that is embraced by so many celebs.   After all, we wouldn't want to offend John T. Tom C. (and his lovely wife) or Kirstie A.   It's too bad about that last one - even her religion wasn't able to prevent her from balooning into an elephant.  

[ch_123]

As much as I love the Model F, my favorite all-rounder has to be the Model M13. Sure it's not as tactile, but it makes up for it by having a mouse that doesn't require you to move your hands off the home row.

[maxlugar]

I thought this was the King of Keyboards... the IBM Displaywriter Beam Spring.

It may very well be.  However, to the best of my knowledge, it has never been interfaced with a modern PC.

I'm going to drive up to Recyled Goods in Ventura sometime next week so I can type on a 3278 beam-spring.  I may even buy it if I can get a reasonable price.  I'll let y'all know if it's as awesome as webwit makes it out to be.

[ch_123]

Well, the Trackpoint II works great on my 1600x1200 screen. Having a Thinkpad dramatically cuts down on the learning curve though, so YMMV.

Definitely not good for games.

[maxlugar]

You've made your point. Maybe the BS enthusiasts should say the Space Saver is the king (or queen) of tenkeyless keyboards ;-)

OK, I cave.  the Space Saver Model M (with buckling springs over membrane key switches...yawn) is the Drag Queen of Keyboards.

Now is everyone happy?

[maxlugar]

Check out the "Did Quality Decline?" thread in the Keyboard Mods forum.  I think you'll find that it really doesn't matter what year or manufacturer your Model M is from.  They're all about the same, especially mechanically.

As much as I hate to call Sly a liar, that's not exactly true.

However, if this will be your first Model M, it probably won't matter.

[maxlugar]

As much as I love the Model F, my favorite all-rounder has to be the Model M13. Sure it's not as tactile, but it makes up for it by having a mouse that doesn't require you to move your hands off the home row.

Why Ch_123, I'm very disappointed, to say the least  

[itlnstln]

You need to see the bigger picture.  A keyboard is not the switches; it's the layout, functionality, etc. as well that makes the whole.  The Model F has one or two of those things, but I don't think it makes a "complete keyboard" for most people, though.

[maxlugar]

Interesting looking keyboard.   Layout is sorta odd with the tiny backspace and Fn keys on the left of the board.    So does this keyboard feel more like a Reaflforce/HHKB2 or an IBM BS keyboard?  

What do these sell for?   A quick search on ebay only turned up the 83 key model?

SK, the 84-key Model F is in a class of its own.  It does not feel anything like a Topre keyboard and is also quite different than the Model M's buckling springs over membrane keyswitches.

The key presses on a well kept (or NIB) 84-key Model F are crisp and precise with the best on-center feel of any keyboard.  They also require less force than the Model Ms.

I can routinely type close to 100 wpm on my 84-keys.  They are a joy to type on.

I'm also a big fan of the Topre keyboards, but for different reasons.

You can pick up a used 84-key Model F on e-bay or even occasionally on the geekhack Classifieds for $100 or less.  The more pristine 84-keys are in the $200 range and the extremely rare NIB is $450 to $600.

Go get a Space Saver Model M.  But if you ever have the chance to get your hands on an 84-key Model F, check it out.  Don't waste your money on the 83-key PC/XT Model F.  It's incompatbile with modern PCs (without a converter) and also has a useless layout for US touch typists.

[skcheng]

Maybe the M13 with the original IBM Trackpoint instead of this POS Unicomp one would be usable on a modern computer but I kinda doubt I'd like it for everyday use.  Just too much work to get that thing around a modern screen resolution - fine for my 1024 x 600 tablet.

Plus going numpadless increases your frontal lobe size and results in better sex.

Ask my wife or ItlnStln's GF.  Or ask my wife after she meets ItlnStln.  Whaaa?

Are there any women on this site??   Moderator censorship???   Ya know....I was starting to think my penis has been growing in the past week since I went tenkeyless.

[skcheng]

SK, the 84-key Model F is in a class of its own.  It does not feel anything like a Topre keyboard and is also quite different than the Model M's buckling springs over membrane keyswitches.

The key presses on a well kept (or NIB) 84-key Model F are crisp and precise with the best on-center feel of any keyboard.  They also require less force than the Model Ms.

I can routinely type close to 100 wpm on my 84-keys.  They are a joy to type on.

I'm also a big fan of the Topre keyboards, but for different reasons.

You can pick up a used 84-key Model F on e-bay or even occasionally on the geekhack Classifieds for $100 or less.  The more pristine 84-keys are in the $200 range and the extremely rare NIB is $450 to $600.

Go get a Space Saver Model M.  But if you ever have the chance to get your hands on an 84-key Model F, check it out.  Don't waste your money on the 83-key PC/XT Model F.  It's incompatbile with modern PCs (without a converter) and also has a useless layout for US touch typists.

Thanks for the insight.   I will look for the Model F 84 key version.   Just let me know to back off if you're bidding on one on ebay that you have to have....

[skcheng]

Hahaha!

As long as it's Dame Edna on Broadway I'm happy.

>

[itlnstln]

It depends.  If keypress force were no object - IBM Space Saving.  The Realforce is much lighter (the regular model, not the 55g. version).  My thing is, if you are going to spend all that money on the Realforce, I would take a hard look at the HHKB.  The layout is pretty awesome, and I really dig mine.  I am not sure if the Topre switches are really worth the money themselves.


Now... if Unicomp would just start making the Space Saving Keyboard again.  Where's Welly when you need him?

[bigpook]

The Topres are nice switches, but I agree that its the layout of the HHKB that makes it.
I miss my model m mini, but it just doesn't play well with my KVM switch.

And I have been using the HHKB now for two months without swapping out....I do like the sound the keys make when I type.

[didjamatic]

For me the Space Saver, Realforce 87u or 103u layout is the cat's pajamas, HHKB doesn't work for me but it depends on what you're doing with it.

Consider noise.  Buckling Springs are too loud for some people, or people near some people.  I work in an office like Neo on the Matrix does, it's quiet enough to hear the squeegie of the window cleaner hanging off the building, so a click-kapow-ping BS board isn't an option.

Collectibility... I'd say the IBM Space Saver if it's in great condition.  They aren't making them anymore and even if they start again, there are people like me who will always prefer the original USA made by IBM versions of Model M's.

[skcheng]

It depends.  If keypress force were no object - IBM Space Saving.  The Realforce is much lighter (the regular model, not the 55g. version).  My thing is, if you are going to spend all that money on the Realforce, I would take a hard look at the HHKB.  The layout is pretty awesome, and I really dig mine.  I am not sure if the Topre switches are really worth the money themselves.


Now... if Unicomp would just start making the Space Saving Keyboard again.  Where's Welly when you need him?

I was told by someone here on GH that 25% of the HHKB2 users cannot get accustomed to the layout.   And that I should purchase the 55G Realforce which is a safer bet.    And for that reason, I passed on picking up an HHKB2.  So you feel that the layout is "awesome" and took no adjusting to?  

I personally prefer the layout on the Model M Space Saving.    So I figure I'd be better off with Realforce?  No??  

I'm not sure which switch/feel I prefer?   I like the BS on my M13.   And I also like the cherry blue and cherry brown switches.   They all seem to work just fine for me.    So far.......

skc

[skcheng]

The Topres are nice switches, but I agree that its the layout of the HHKB that makes it.
I miss my model m mini, but it just doesn't play well with my KVM switch.

And I have been using the HHKB now for two months without swapping out....I do like the sound the keys make when I type.

Score another vote for the HHKB2.   Did you compare it to the Realforce?  And how long did it take for you to adjust to the layout.  It's the right side of the HHKB2 that I don't know if I could get used to??

[skcheng]

For me the Space Saver, Realforce 87u or 103u layout is the cat's pajamas, HHKB doesn't work for me but it depends on what you're doing with it.

Consider noise.  Buckling Springs are too loud for some people, or people near some people.  I work in an office like Neo on the Matrix does, it's quiet enough to hear the squeegie of the window cleaner hanging off the building, so a click-kapow-ping BS board isn't an option.

Collectibility... I'd say the IBM Space Saver if it's in great condition.  They aren't making them anymore and even if they start again, there are people like me who will always prefer the original USA made by IBM versions of Model M's.

I'm more of a buyer than a seller.   At least lately.  

I'm purchasing a bunch of keyboards lately.   I have 6 computers at work and 4 at home.   And I'm tired of crappy broken keyboards, sticky keys, and lack of feel..  

Noise doesn't bother me.   I'm already used to the click/clack of Filco blue switches.  

I passed on the HHKB2 afer you and a few others mentioned that the Realforce is way to go with Topre switches.

[ch_123]

Depends. The layout and small size of the HHKB is great for those who do things suited to the layout (command line users)

Really it boils down to the following - do you think a switch lighter than the Blue Cherry would be something you'd like?

I am a buckling spring fan, but the Topre is definitely second on my list after that.

[skcheng]

Hmm.....well I'd just use your Blue Cherry as a starting point.  IF you want something stiffer but like the clicks and stronger tactile point go for the IBM Mini (Space Saver vs. Space Saving is no biggie).

IF you were raised on rubber domes and want something lighter I'd go with a Topre.

Like I've posted before the Buckling Springs and Topre's are polar opposites.

IBM Mini - sharp tactile point and clicky

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Topre - soft domey feel.  I find the feedback, uh, "vague" but comfortable.

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P.S.  And you COULD argue the DIP switched Topres will be collectible someday.  I mean SOMEDAY they'll get rid of those.  Geekhack year 3000 will have people arguing whether the goldplated DIP switches are really better.

I see that you listed the Model M Mini in order of preference before the Realforce 87U.   I will most likely end up with both.   But I also want a Guru-board and I need to eventually replace the crappy aluminum keyboards on my IMacs at the office.    So right now I'm just experimenting.  

I'll probably pick up the Mini today and if I love it, I'll look for a NIB one.  There's another one on ebay right now.....

skc

[itlnstln]

I was told by someone here on GH that 25% of the HHKB2 users cannot get accustomed to the layout.   And that I should purchase the 55G Realforce which is a safer bet.    And for that reason, I passed on picking up an HHKB2.  So you feel that the layout is "awesome" and took no adjusting to?

I'm not sure where that number came from, but that certainly doesn't jive with what I have seen on GeekHack, but I'm known for not really paying attention, anyway.  It took me all of about 2-3 days to get adjusted to the layout and about 2 weeks to really solidify the muscle memory.  Now, all other keyboards are ruined for me.  On paper, the layout looks sort of awkward, but when you start to use it, you begin to realize how much more efficient it is, and you adjust to it fairly quickly (much faster than I expected, personally).  Like all things keyboard-related, though, YMMV.  I also like it, too, because I can take it with me.  It's also a "mini" keyboard that's full-featured and doesn't make many sacrifices (the only one I can think of is the numpad).

[skcheng]

Depends. The layout and small size of the HHKB is great for those who do things suited to the layout (command line users)

Really it boils down to the following - do you think a switch lighter than the Blue Cherry would be something you'd like?

I am a buckling spring fan, but the Topre is definitely second on my list after that.

Sure.....why not?  If I liked "only" one switch/board type, I wouldn't bother picking up other boards.    So far, I think I prefer the cherry blue over the BS on my M13.    But I could live with either.  

I'll eventually try everything I can get my hands on.  

So I'm getting that you personally don't like the cherry switches?

[itlnstln]

They have drugs for that now.  :biggrin1:

I think that was the problem in the first place.

[didjamatic]

Sharp tactile point and clicky.


Soft domey feel.  Feedback comfortable.


Sorry Ripster, I couldn't resist.  

[skcheng]

Can't we have it all?   Sharp/pointy/clicky and soft domey/comfortable??  Like this:

[didjamatic]

For me Topres have it all, do it all and leave nothing on the table.  If I want sharper, snappier I use an all-55g, if I want smooth and slightly lighter I use a variable force model.  It's true they are different than other boards which I rotate in, but I always come back to Topres.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

Soft domey feel.  Feedback comfortable.

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Sorry Ripster, I couldn't resist.  :)

That's nice...

[Shadin]

SK, don't listen to this dweeb either, the IBM PC AT 84-key Model F is, and always will be the King of Keyboards

That's my dream keyboard, just can never seem to find one in decent condition.  The F-key placement and big Enter key is pure sex.

I really want a Model M Space Saver as well, but my priority is the F before that.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

I would also love a Model F, but I just don't have the budget for such a nice keyboard as that.

[skcheng]

Okay, so I picked up the board.   Seller actually brought it by my office for me to test.   Very COOL kb.   All of the keys worked fine with no sticking and other than some surface dirt, the kb actually looked really nice.  The seller described the cosmetic condition of the kb at about a 7 out of 10.  A quick wipe down and I find it to be about an 8 out of 10.   Keep in mind that I rate Megan Fox at about an 8.4 and Kate Beckinsale an 8.5 - 8.6 depending on whether black leather is in the picture.   So I think I have a really nice board with my idea of a nice layout.  

Unfortunately, the cord is just nasty.  Black grime deluxe.  I'll put on the industrial rubber gloves and scrub the thing down.......but I really would like to find a nicer cord.   Does anyone sell these in new or like new condition.  It's a detachable PS-2 cord with an odd phone type input  (RJ 45??).  

Also, can anyone tell me what size socket wrench I need to purchase in order to disassemble the case?   Otherwise, I'll need to lug the case into the hardware store to figure it out.  

I'm not sure why, but typing on the Model M Space Saving kb seems nicer than on my black M13  (my only comparison point)  A more crisp, tactile feel.   And a little more solid feeling.  

skc

[sethstorm]

Okay, so I picked up the board.   Seller actually brought it by my office for me to test.   Very COOL kb.   All of the keys worked fine with no sticking and other than some surface dirt, the kb actually looked really nice.  The seller described the cosmetic condition of the kb at about a 7 out of 10.  A quick wipe down and I find it to be about an 8 out of 10.   Keep in mind that I rate Megan Fox at about an 8.4 and Kate Beckinsale an 8.5 - 8.6 depending on whether black leather is in the picture.   So I think I have a really nice board with my idea of a nice layout.  

Unfortunately, the cord is just nasty.  Black grime deluxe.  I'll put on the industrial rubber gloves and scrub the thing down.......but I really would like to find a nicer cord.   Does anyone sell these in new or like new condition.  It's a detachable PS-2 cord with an odd phone type input  (RJ 45??).  

Also, can anyone tell me what size socket wrench I need to purchase in order to disassemble the case?   Otherwise, I'll need to lug the case into the hardware store to figure it out.  

I'm not sure why, but typing on the Model M Space Saving kb seems nicer than on my black M13  (my only comparison point)  A more crisp, tactile feel.   And a little more solid feeling.  

skc

To answer what cable that is, it's an SDL connector cable.  Looks like RJ-45 but isn't.  Not sure where to get the cables, but they aren't as rare.

A 7/32 hex nutdriver should work for disassembling it.

Having both Lexmark and Maxi-switch versions of the M13, a Terminal F, Terminal M, and Model M as data points, I'd say that that's about right.  I've got no spacesavers, but if they're anything like the M - it should be close.

[maxlugar]

That's my dream keyboard, just can never seem to find one in decent condition.  The F-key placement and big Enter key is pure sex.

I really want a Model M Space Saver as well, but my priority is the F before that.

Finally someone who's got their priorities in the right order!

A geekhacker had an 84-key listed in the Classified section not too long ago for around $75.  ebay seller "NC Bound" ocassionally lists 84-key Model Fs for $125 to $175.

I'm sure I'll pickup a Space Saving Model M one of these days, but it's not a priority.  After all, it's still just a Model M of which I already have too many.

[sethstorm]

If you're pressed to get a Model F type board(and can't find an AT F suitably priced), get the Terminal F and mod it according to Kishy's instructions.  While it isn't an AT F, it is a less expensive option.

[salcan]

Okay, so I picked up the board.   Seller actually brought it by my office for me to test.   Very COOL kb.   All of the keys worked fine with no sticking and other than some surface dirt, the kb actually looked really nice.  The seller described the cosmetic condition of the kb at about a 7 out of 10.  A quick wipe down and I find it to be about an 8 out of 10.   Keep in mind that I rate Megan Fox at about an 8.4 and Kate Beckinsale an 8.5 - 8.6 depending on whether black leather is in the picture.   So I think I have a really nice board with my idea of a nice layout.  

...  

I'm not sure why, but typing on the Model M Space Saving kb seems nicer than on my black M13  (my only comparison point)  A more crisp, tactile feel.   And a little more solid feeling.  

skc

So, what did you end up paying? Not to ask a rude question, but wasn't that the point of the thread

As for the M13, I feel the same way about mine. I like it, but I have questions about the build quality relative to my other Ms. (It's a Lexmark, not a Maxi-Switch).

[skcheng]

To answer what cable that is, it's an SDL connector cable.  Looks like RJ-45 but isn't.  Not sure where to get the cables, but they aren't as rare.

A 7/32 hex nutdriver should work for disassembling it.

Having both Lexmark and Maxi-switch versions of the M13, a Terminal F, Terminal M, and Model M as data points, I'd say that that's about right.  I've got no spacesavers, but if they're anything like the M - it should be close.

Thanks for the info.   I'll order a new cable.    Odd that the case and keys look almost new and the cord is so grimy??  

I'll pick up that driver tomorrow.    Gotta see if there are any broken rivets whatever that means  LOL.  

skc

[skcheng]

So, what did you end up paying? Not to ask a rude question, but wasn't that the point of the thread

As for the M13, I feel the same way about mine. I like it, but I have questions about the build quality relative to my other Ms. (It's a Lexmark, not a Maxi-Switch).

I offered $100 and the seller accepted.   I think that's ball park considering what recent Space Saving/Savers have sold for.    I didn't think I was nuts......even Rip calls them Space Savers on his current kb list.  

The keyboard is awesome.   I really like it.  

skc

[skcheng]

Skcheng, congrats on getting the Mini!

SHF-ScrollLock turns on/off the embedded numpad.  No DIP switches involved unlike less advanced keyboards.

Show Image

Forgive the other guys droning on.  There is a reason the waiter in good restaurants takes the menu away after ordering.

That's cool!!  Where can I get those cool blank keys??   Are there any "black" labeled keys that fit the mini?

 I love how the numpad is turned on/off.   The seller showed me how to do it.  

The only thing I miss on the mini are the Caps Lock and Scroll Lock LEDS.   No big deal, but it's the first thing I look at when I plug in a board.  

I usually ask to keep the menu after ordering in case I'm still hungry  :)

[maxlugar]

I offered $100 and the seller accepted.   I think that's ball park considering what recent Space Saving/Savers have sold for.    I didn't think I was nuts......even Rip calls them Space Savers on his current kb list.  

The keyboard is awesome.   I really like it.  

skc

Congrats on your new keyboarch purchase SK.  I'm glad you're enjoying it.  Standard Model Ms can be had for a lot less than $100, but the Space Saving Model Ms command a premium for some reason - I guess 'cause fewer were manufactured.

If you ever run across a used 84-key PC AT Model F in decent shape, it would make a nice addition to your keyboard collection.  Although both use buckling springs, the typing feel of the Model F is very different than the Model M...in a good way.

Same is true for a Topre switch keyboard, especially the Happy Hacking Professional 2. You probably won't find any bargains, but ther're worth every dime.  The HHKB is my travel board.  I never go on the road without it.

I'm not sure that what ripster calls his Space Saving Model M (or anything else) is relevant.  Last time I checked, nobody died and made him Brigham Young.  Riipster has made many contributions to geekhack and takes many newbies "under his wing."  In reality, rip's opinion is no more relevant than anyone else's - not even our favourite son, webwit  

Don't be swayed by seemingly dominant posters who are eager to provide new members with guidance and direction.  I continually pound my 84-key PC AT Model F drum whenever I have the opportunity, but I have grown to appreciate a wide variety of key switches and input devices.   Behind the scenes, I have donated many keyboards that I've bought, tried out, and didn't care for, to other geekhackers.

Give us a detailed review after you've had the chance to type on your new Space Saving Model M for a while.

[itlnstln]

Skcheng, you can get those blank, black keys directly from Unicomp.  I think they are about $20.

[itlnstln]

I'm not sure that what ripster calls his Space Saving Model M (or anything else) is relevant.  Last time I checked, nobody died and made him Brigham Young.  Riipster has made many contributions to geekhack and takes many newbies "under his wing."  In reality, rip's opinion is no more relevant than anyone else's - not even our favourite son, webwit  

I ripster calls his Space Saving keyboard "Dirty ****."  

That said, my opinion is everything.  Listen to me.

[bigpook]

No, No, No. Ripster and Itlstln are imposters, it is my opinion that is correct and above all others.

I call my model m mini 'Betty'.

[skcheng]

Skcheng, you can get those blank, black keys directly from Unicomp.  I think they are about $20.

Cool!!  Ordering some today.   I guess I need to check, but I wonder if the keys off of my Black M13 will fit on the mini??   I'm still not completely familiar with the world of Model M kbs.  

Thx.

[itlnstln]

I wonder if the keys off of my Black M13 will fit on the mini??

Yes.  The caps are interchangeable between models (as long as they are all buckling spring caps).

[skcheng]

Congrats on your new keyboarch purchase SK.  I'm glad you're enjoying it.  Standard Model Ms can be had for a lot less than $100, but the Space Saving Model Ms command a premium for some reason - I guess 'cause fewer were manufactured.

If you ever run across a used 84-key PC AT Model F in decent shape, it would make a nice addition to your keyboard collection.  Although both use buckling springs, the typing feel of the Model F is very different than the Model M...in a good way.

Same is true for a Topre switch keyboard, especially the Happy Hacking Professional 2. You probably won't find any bargains, but ther're worth every dime.  The HHKB is my travel board.  I never go on the road without it.

I'm not sure that what ripster calls his Space Saving Model M (or anything else) is relevant.  Last time I checked, nobody died and made him Brigham Young.  Riipster has made many contributions to geekhack and takes many newbies "under his wing."  In reality, rip's opinion is no more relevant than anyone else's - not even our favourite son, webwit  

Don't be swayed by seemingly dominant posters who are eager to provide new members with guidance and direction.  I continually pound my 84-key PC AT Model F drum whenever I have the opportunity, but I have grown to appreciate a wide variety of key switches and input devices.   Behind the scenes, I have donated many keyboards that I've bought, tried out, and didn't care for, to other geekhackers.

Give us a detailed review after you've had the chance to type on your new Space Saving Model M for a while.

Do you have one for sale???    I'm in "buy" mode these days.    10 computers and 12 keyboards in the last 2 months  LOL.  

I will look for a nice 84 key Model F.   Right now I couldn't tell you which I prefer?   Blue Cherry, Brown Cherry or BS??    I like them all.  

If all of us agreed on what the perfect keyboard is, there would be no need for a forum like Geekhack.   It's the opinions that keep it all interesting.  

Thx.

skc

[skcheng]

Yes.  The caps are interchangeable between models (as long as they are all buckling spring caps).

Great!!   Ebony and Ivory.....live together in perfect harmony......

[skcheng]

No, No, No. Ripster and Itlstln are imposters, it is my opinion that is correct and above all others.

I call my model m mini 'Betty'.

Why "Betty"??   As in Betty Page??  :-))

And what the heck is a "bigpook"

[sethstorm]

That's cool!!  Where can I get those cool blank keys??   Are there any "black" labeled keys that fit the mini?

 I love how the numpad is turned on/off.   The seller showed me how to do it.  

The only thing I miss on the mini are the Caps Lock and Scroll Lock LEDS.   No big deal, but it's the first thing I look at when I plug in a board.  

I usually ask to keep the menu after ordering in case I'm still hungry  

M13 Black keys are one of the rarest things in the keyboard universe(aside from doubleshot black Cherry keys).  You will have to retain G/H on the M13, get blanks to fill them, or dremel out the necessary grooves(if you want to do a complete swap).

If you don't care for having the labels on them, call up Unicomp if you're in the US for some blanks.

The keys closeup:



What your M13 might look like afterwards:

[bigpook]

Why "Betty"??   As in Betty Page??  :-))

And what the heck is a "bigpook"

I think Betty Page is the ultimate ref but I was thinking of the ship in one of the Alien movies. ( I think 'the betty' is more correct though, I need to watch the movie again. )

bigpook is a ref to coffee creamer, hazelnut to be precise.

Outside of my own reality the above has no value to anyone else at all. It is purely for my own amusement.

[itlnstln]

bigpook is a ref to coffee creamer, hazelnut to be precise.

Outside of my own reality the above has no value to anyone else at all. It is purely for my own amusement.

I thought it was your rapper name.  Maybe it's your drug dealer name, and you cut your coke with powdered hazelnut coffee creamer.


I'm a boxer.

[pfink]

I guess I need to check, but I wonder if the keys off of my Black M13 will fit on the mini??

Most definitely.

[kishy]

Most definitely.

Show Image

Show Image

Now all it needs is a Trackpoint, and it can be called the Model M6.5.

[sethstorm]

Now all it needs is a Trackpoint, and it can be called the Model M6.5.

More like M8.25 (or whatever fits the golden ratio).

...and for those who want one, I am selling one.

[maxlugar]

I ripster calls his Space Saving keyboard "Dirty ****."  

That said, my opinion is everything.  Listen to me.

That's correct SK.  I mean to say everyone's opinion on geekhack is irrelevant except for Sly (and bigpook).  You can take their advice to the bank.  OK, OK, occasionally you can even count on ripster and the rest of us for "reliable" advice (in our own respective and never humble opinions).

I also use the term "Dirty Little ****"...but not in reference to a keyboard  

[maxlugar]

Do you have one for sale???    I'm in "buy" mode these days.    10 computers and 12 keyboards in the last 2 months  LOL.  

I will look for a nice 84 key Model F.   Right now I couldn't tell you which I prefer?   Blue Cherry, Brown Cherry or BS??    I like them all.  

If all of us agreed on what the perfect keyboard is, there would be no need for a forum like Geekhack.   It's the opinions that keep it all interesting.  

Thx.

skc

My 84-key collection is up to 8.  PM me and we'll work something out.

[bigpook]

I thought it was your rapper name.  Maybe it's your drug dealer name, and you cut your coke with powdered hazelnut coffee creamer.


I'm a boxer.

no, wrong, and no coke for me.

I should be working today, but my vehicle is at the shop.

[itlnstln]

I should be working today, but my vehicle is at the shop.

Yeah, right.  You used that one last week.  At least say you're sick or something.

[ch_123]

If you want a Model F AT  just to try a infinitesimally superior switch I wouldn't pay about $30 for one on Ebay.

Sounds like MW hacked ripster's account....

[itlnstln]

The Model F AT is a nice "Vintage" item for collectors and people who can live without a Navigation cluster and don't mind large keyboards.   The Model M Mini is the keyboard for people who use it every day instead of storing them in a box.

This.

Sounds like MW hacked ripster's account....

Nah, Geekgirl's on the rag.  He'll be back to normal in about a week.

[itlnstln]

Maaaamorieeeees...  err...  Meeemorieees.

[ch_123]

The Model F AT is a nice "Vintage" item for collectors and people who can live without a Navigation cluster and don't mind large keyboards.

Show Image

No navigation cluster... odd... what's that thing with arrows on the right hand side?

[ch_123]

That depends on the state of your numlock.

Don't you have to have the numlock off when using the Space Saver, lest it do the weird laptop-numpad shuffle?

[kriminal]

More like M8.25 (or whatever fits the golden ratio).

...and for those who want one, I am selling one.

selling what exactly?

[itlnstln]

While you two sort things out, I'll be over here typing numbers and moving around the page all at the same time.

[itlnstln]

I did, I gain an extra Fn key on the left; Delete also became Backspace.  My numpad exploded, though.  I wish I could have read the manual.

[itlnstln]

I tried the ones on the numpad, and they didn't do anything as far as I can tell.

[itlnstln]

I think it has something to do with how the NumLock interacts with a companion keyboard, but since my 'board doesn't have a NumLock, I can't test for it.  I leave all the DIPs off on the numpad as it works the way I want it to out of the box.

Me, personally, I would rather work in the box.  Or just work the box itself.

[skcheng]

Most definitely.

Show Image

Show Image

Interesting.   Did you paint the case on a Mini?  Or is that a case from some other keyboard.    Do you still use the scroll lock numpad with that setup?

skc

[skcheng]

My 84-key collection is up to 8.  PM me and we'll work something out.

PM Sent

[itlnstln]

So when I use my Kinesis keypad the Numlock light on the Realforce blinks, indicating that the keypad is sending "NumLock Make, Number, NumLock Break".

Does the Topre do that?

Tried it with a laptop yet to see if Numlock has to be on?

I need to try it with my laptop; I haven't done it yet.

[skcheng]

The Model F AT is a nice "Vintage" item for collectors and people who can live without a Navigation cluster and don't mind large keyboards.   The Model M Mini is the keyboard for people who use it every day instead of storing them in a box.

Show Image

So back to the original topic SKcheng got a great deal buying a $100 IBM Mini because he got to see it first and didn't pay shipping.  If you want a Model F AT  just to try a slightly superior (and LOUD) switch I wouldn't pay more than about $30 for a used one on Ebay.  If you're patient they come up every so often mis-listed as "Model F" without the "AT" being in the search.

Max, you should try a Mini!  It would make your comments more valuable in this post.

That grey Mini is gorgeous.  Just one sexy looking kb!!  If you don't mind me asking, what did that one cost ya??    And I like how the red escape contrasts with the other colors.  

I'm pretty happy about spending $100 on my Mini.   It's a nice board despite the grimy SDL cable which actually is cleaning up nicely.  

I didn't even notice that the AT doesn't have the navigation cluster.   So you agree that the switch on the AT is superior.....albeit slightly??

You da' MAN!!   Your word is gospel  :-))

[maxlugar]

The Model F AT is a nice "Vintage" item for collectors and people who can live without a Navigation cluster and don't mind large keyboards.   The Model M Mini is the keyboard for people who use it every day instead of storing them in a box.
`

So back to the original topic SKcheng got a great deal buying a $100 IBM Mini because he got to see it first and didn't pay shipping.  If you want a Model F AT  just to try a infinitesimally superior switch I wouldn't pay about $30 for one on Ebay.  If you're patient they come up every so often mis-listed as "Model F" without the "AT" being in the search.

Max, you should try a Mini!  It would make your comments more valuable in this post.

Yes, perhaps I will try a Model M Space Saving "Mini" keyboard.  Why not, I've burned money on just about everything else possible.

Your 84-key PC AT is vintage because you decided to keep it in the box.


What do you think most people would consider any Model M keyboard (including the Unicomps)  Umm....Vintage, retro, clunky, out of vogue comes to mind.

The unpopular layout of the 84-key Model F aside, you cannot possibly make a comment like "infinitesimally superior switch" with a straight face.  Whether you love or hate the Model F key switches, the difference when compared with Model M key switches is anything but "infinitesimal".  Dramatically different would be more accurate.

I will continue to pound away on my "vintage" daily driver 84-key PC AT keyboards in ignorant bliss while you pound away on your Model M Mini.  

SK, after you get an IBM PC AT 84-key Model F keyboard in good condition, you let us know if the buckling springs over capacitive contacts typing experience is infinitesimally different than your Model M Mini...with a straight face.

EDit:  BTW, your messiah, the rip meister, held out for a sealed NIB 84-key Model F and shelled out about $500 in coin.  Now his advice to you is "Son, don't follow in my fooliish ways and waste your hard earned money on a "vintage" keyboard.  You should spend no more than $30."   In the meantime, he stashed his 84-key away in the closet (taking extra care to keep the box in pristine condition) with the fiendish plan to sell it to a Japanese or Korean collector for thousands of dollars in about 20 years.  Pure evil.

[maxlugar]

You da' MAN!!   Your word is gospel  :-))

God help you.  As nasty as he is, I think my views, in general, are more aligned with webwit.

[maxlugar]

I need to try it with my laptop; I haven't done it yet.

Yes, both the Topre Realforce 23U and Filco brown Cherry key pads activate the Num Lock LED when the number keys are pressed.

[pfink]

Interesting.   Did you paint the case on a Mini?  Or is that a case from some other keyboard.    Do you still use the scroll lock numpad with that setup?

I painted the case on one of my minis using Dupli-Color Vinyl & Fabric spray paint/dye. Details here:

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6759


I never use the scroll lock numpad so it's not a big deal to me that the black keys don't have the numpad legends.

[skcheng]

I painted the case on one of my minis using Dupli-Color Vinyl & Fabric spray paint/dye. Details here:

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6759


I never use the scroll lock numpad so it's not a big deal to me that the black keys don't have the numpad legends.

I think the numpad is my favorite part of the Mini.   I'm already using it.  Nice that I don't have to move my hand way over to the right when I'm entering a bunch of numbers.

[skcheng]

God help you.  As nasty as he is, I think my views, in general, are more aligned with webwit.

I don't know webwit yet.    He bashed on me a little when I inquired about how to clean keys though.....

[kriminal]

skull esc keys are anti-webwit,  get em... time to pm max lugar

[kishy]

This actually really suits how you present yourself around here.

Calm, formal (dressed in black), but keeping a close eye on us and ready to attack with deadly force at any moment.

[EverythingIBM]

This actually really suits how you present yourself around here.

Calm, formal (dressed in black), but keeping a close eye on us and ready to attack with deadly force at any moment.

I thought webwit was more like this:

[bigpook]

oh man, I had to laugh at big bird.  that made my day.

[kriminal]

cant blame a guy for wanting to impart his keyboard e-panis on us

[skcheng]

Are Model M keys REALLY durable, or did I just acquire a board that saw minimal use??   These keys really look barely touched by human fingers:

[skcheng]

cant blame a guy for wanting to impart his keyboard e-panis on us

Kriminal. how do you like your deck???   I'm an illuminated keyboard fanboy.   Don't need them to type on, but I loves me a bright lit up keyboard.

[kriminal]

Kriminal. how do you like your deck???   I'm an illuminated keyboard fanboy.   Don't need them to type on, but I loves me a bright lit up keyboard.

its actually quite good! use it for gaming mainly only really as imho seems more fitting than using the browns, quite small also.

i have 2 decks, gave one to the gf.

[EverythingIBM]

The dye was a good technique "in the day", but they do wear off and get shiny. Probably more-so if you're a greasy-fingered-pizza-cheezie-eating trekkie. If you have "food fingers" all the time, it will really affect your labels.

If you want to preserve the labels, plaster them with masking tape.

[skcheng]

The dye was a good technique "in the day", but they do wear off and get shiny. Probably more-so if you're a greasy-fingered-pizza-cheezie-eating trekkie. If you have "food fingers" all the time, it will really affect your labels.

If you want to preserve the labels, plaster them with masking tape.

Masking tape to preserve the labels huh??   I'm anal, but not that anal  :laugh:

[EverythingIBM]

Dye won't wear off.  It goes down into the key a few microns.  I think you are thinking of your rubber dome IBM/Chicony.

No actually, I think the chicony IBM labels are the best; not one is worn off.

My friend's "industrial" model M actually has all the labels worn off. He said the spring tension is fine though.

[sethstorm]

No actually, I think the chicony IBM labels are the best; not one is worn off.

My friend's "industrial" model M actually has all the labels worn off. He said the spring tension is fine though.

Are those the SK-? models?  Mine aren't worn off, but the WASD cluster is a bit darker than the rest.  

On the upside, your friend has instant blanks.

[sethstorm]

Show Image

Explain?  Unless the filename says it all, that's a bit more than a few microns.

[ch_123]

My friend's "industrial" model M actually has all the labels worn off. He said the spring tension is fine though.

I know a guy who knows a guy on the internet who met a guy in a bar who thought he heard a guy say...

[kishy]

I know a guy who knows a guy on the internet who met a guy in a bar who thought he heard a guy say...

...that he enjoyed cranberry juice.

[skcheng]

More updates on my adventures in "Mini" land.  

I finally get a chance to visit my local True Value and I pick up a 5.5mm socket driver and the case is finally apart.  

I knew something was rattling around in the case.   I was hoping it was some toast or a cracker or something.   Nope......it's a broken support:



No problem here.  I'll just glue and clamp and it should hold up.  

Now this is more troubling:


By my count, that's 13 broken rivets.  Is that what they're called??  Odd since this keyboard does not look abused.   Do these simply snap with time?  With simple typing??   Maybe this keyboard was used as a baseball bat???  

Still......very clean inside.  Almost nothing in there:



And the adventure continues.   Time for the ol' nuts/bolts/washers mod.  

skc

[skcheng]

The one I modded with nuts/bolts feels the best.  It also has the weird hieroglyphic APL keys for my anti-Otaku moods.

I think you may be thinking of the M4 optional numpad - entirely different beast.

Ugggghhhh!!   Trips to 2 hardware stores and I come up empty.   I guess they don't stock small parts in Northern Jersey.   I really wanted to bolt my Mini together.   A quick call to McMaster-Carr and I should have the parts by Tues.  

I went ahead and ordered the stainless screws.  $3.37/100 vs $3.32/100 for the zinc plated.  

Maybe my blank keys will be here by then too.  

Rip......any other tips on this mod beyond what you've described in your tutorial?  

Thx

skc

[skcheng]

Although I just fixed a Industrial M13 with a snapped post it's pretty unusual.   Unfortunately that many rivets missing isn't all that unusual.


Post in the Nuts/Bolt mod thread if you have questions as you go along.

Okay.  Will do.  I reassembled my Mini and I'm typing on it right now.   It's loud LOL.   But it sure is fun to type on.   Maybe I'll throw in a bid on the NIB one.  I don't know??    I'd probably rather have "used" ones to mod/tinker with.

[skcheng]

The NIB IBM Mini sold last night for $208.50.  The one before that from the same seller for $202.50.  A used (and dirty Blue Label) is currently listed for $120.

The seller relists these like clockwork every 2 weeks.  I bought one from him last year.  Must be sitting on quite a stack.

Show Image

Where do you see the used and dirty one listed??   I searched IBM Model M and IBM Space Saver/Saving and came up blank.

[ch_123]

Maybe it's Unicomp, making them in secret and doctoring the labels and packaging.

[skcheng]

$130 here.  Haven't bought from Vintagecomputermuseum but their prices seem high for what you get.

And linking in an Ebay listing to another seller (clickykeyboards) is very tacky.   Even I wouldn't do that.

Thanks for the link.   I'll pass on that one.   I guess the price doesn't seem too unreasonable .....

Ebay is fine, but I'm having more fun buying from Geekhack members.   And the items I've purchased here have been much better represented.

[skcheng]

$130 here.  Haven't bought from Vintagecomputermuseum but their prices seem high for what you get.

And linking in an Ebay listing to another seller (clickykeyboards) is very tacky.   Even I wouldn't do that.

I just checked out the other listings and the $130 Model M Mini is the best deal he has going??   Some of those prices are simply outrageous.  At least compared to other Ebay sellers.

[skcheng]

My adventure with my 1st Space Saving IBM Model M 84 Key Mini ended last night.   I completed the Ripster nuts/bolts mod  (with many mistakes), and I'm thrilled with the end result.   Thanks for friendly Geekhackers, I've also picked up several more of these keyboards of various vintages and various pricepoints.   This is a GREAT keyboard imho.    More on the mods on Ripster's mod thread, but here are some pics of my finished keyboard.   Blank keys courtesy of Chuck over at Unicomp who is simply GREAT to deal with.   For those who are interested, Unicomp is capable of printing the 84 Space Saving numpad keys.  

On to the pics:








Any my final Mini porn shot.  Love THOSE Space Saving numpad keys:

[skcheng]

Looks great!  I gotta give Chuck a call and order some of those blank whites.

If you have any advice to add to the Nuts/bolts mod please post them in the mod thread.  It'll help anyone else attempting it.

I have a list of what "not to do" to add to your thread.   That's fer sur....

Are you a flashlight guy Rip??  Can you guess the light??   I was going to add Legos but I didn't want to steal your thunder.   I just finished building the DeathStar.  What a PITA!!!!!

[Half-Saint]

skcheng, it would be nice if you avoided full-res photos, eh? Ya know, not wanting to waste bandwidth when a 1200x800 pic can do the same job just as well.

As for broken rivets.. recently got an IBM Model M Ambra with 12 broken rivets.. works fine except for one squiggly key but luckily it's the '-' on the numpad.

SainT

[skcheng]

skcheng, it would be nice if you avoided full-res photos, eh? Ya know, not wanting to waste bandwidth when a 1200x800 pic can do the same job just as well.

As for broken rivets.. recently got an IBM Model M Ambra with 12 broken rivets.. works fine except for one squiggly key but luckily it's the '-' on the numpad.

SainT

I've started loading smaller size pics.   Noobster here.   My first photos were so small that people asked for "larger" files.   I use Fototime and they only offer a standard or a full size option.   But you're right.....no sense in wasting bandwidth.  I just figured a high tech keyboard site would automtically resize photos  :-))

Have you ever done a bolts/nuts mod??   It's welll worth the effort.   Much more solid and responsive.   Also increased horsepower and stabilized the handlling.....oops, wrong forum.  

skc

[bigpook]

I have a unicomp spacesaver that I will be doing a nut/bolt mod on. The board is fine, mostly, but I did something to the 'i' key and now it repeats like mad.

I am waiting for the hardware to arrive but am thinking of popping the rivits and drilling this weekend.

[skcheng]

I have a unicomp spacesaver that I will be doing a nut/bolt mod on. The board is fine, mostly, but I did something to the 'i' key and now it repeats like mad.

I am waiting for the hardware to arrive but am thinking of popping the rivits and drilling this weekend.

It's a fun mod.....at least it was for me.   But I used a high speed electric handpiece and I drilled all of the holes in about 15 minutes.   I tried drilling one hole with the drill bit and a dremel and I got to hand it to Ripster.   He must have the patience of a Saint.  

I REALLY love my modified Mini.  It's awesome!!   It clunks now instead of clicking.   I may just need to do the same to my NEW Space Saving Mini   :-)))

[maxlugar]

I have a unicomp spacesaver that I will be doing a nut/bolt mod on. The board is fine, mostly, but I did something to the 'i' key and now it repeats like mad.

I am waiting for the hardware to arrive but am thinking of popping the rivits and drilling this weekend.

When someone pulls off a nut and bolt job on an 84-key Model F, I will really be impressed    

[ch_123]

Especially given that they have none.

[maxlugar]

Especially given that they have none.

Plastic rivets, that is.  

[bigpook]

I took it apart. I was too lazy to move the truck in the garage to get to my tool box to get the chisel that I may or may not have so I use a Gerber multi-tool as a hammer and used a pci blank slot as the chisel.
Yeah, I know, real cave man like. But it worked pretty good.

Dropped the springs and hammers into an old coffee can for safe keeping and used a small pair of diagonal flush cutters to nibble down the plastic.

I don't have a dremel though, but have a 12 volt Ryobi with clutch. I think I have a 1/16 bit somewhere.... otherwise its down to Ace Hardware.

be back soon.

[skcheng]

I took it apart. I was too lazy to move the truck in the garage to get to my tool box to get the chisel that I may or may not have so I use a Gerber multi-tool as a hammer and used a pci blank slot as the chisel.
Yeah, I know, real cave man like. But it worked pretty good.

Dropped the springs and hammers into an old coffee can for safe keeping and used a small pair of diagonal flush cutters to nibble down the plastic.

I don't have a dremel though, but have a 12 volt Ryobi with clutch. I think I have a 1/16 bit somewhere.... otherwise its down to Ace Hardware.

be back soon.

NOOOOO!!!   One of my rookie errors was NOT laying out the springs and hammers separately.   Carefully shake those things free from each other because if they entwine, you'll have a **** fit.   I did......

skc

[kishy]

Springs and hammers become entwined?

I'm about 300% sure this doesn't happen, since I've got a jar of them and I actually tried to get it to happen to see if that storage method would be a problem. I couldn't force them to, so I'm positive they can't do it on their own.

[skcheng]

Springs and hammers become entwined?

I'm about 300% sure this doesn't happen, since I've got a jar of them and I actually tried to get it to happen to see if that storage method would be a problem. I couldn't force them to, so I'm positive they can't do it on their own.

I must be "special" then.   :-)))    It's just easy to keep them separate.   Unless you think I'm making it up that I locked a few together??

[kishy]

I must be "special" then.   :-)))    It's just easy to keep them separate.   Unless you think I'm making it up that I locked a few together??

Well, easier, sure lol...but not for long term storage.

I don't think you made it up...I just think you had bad luck lol.

[bigpook]

the springs and hammers are in a coffee can..: ) hopefully, they will not get entwined...

The drilling is the hardest part. I don't have a dremel but even if I did, I think I would still have an issue getting the drill bit to center.
My solution was to use a mini-awl. It has a sharp tip on it which is ideal, but the plastic needs to be mostly flat in order to do it right.
I used the rasp on the gerber  to knock it down a bit, than used the awl to set the point.

drill, drill, drill. Not so bad... I am waiting on the hardware to come in the mail.Maybe next week.

[skcheng]

Would be better to post tips in the mod post.

Anything posted here will disappear in a few months.

I have no problems with a Dremel and a decent quality drillbit.  5 minutes.  I coulda been a dentist.

Hey Rip,

Guess what I do for a living??  :-))

And 5 minutes??   I call BS!!!   I want to time your slowpunk toosh and we'll place wagers.   I would love to see you drill 50+ holes in about 6 secs each!!!

skc

[bigpook]

That chisel looks like it would do a nice job...buy hey, a little sand paper and its all good. I just wish I had the hardware to finish.

[skcheng]

I posted on the MOD section.   I now have 6 of these keyboards LOL.   I went back and forth today btwn my modified Mini and my double shot Filco.    I honestly don't know which one I prefer more?   It's a toss up.    I sure loves me my Mini.

[bigpook]

My Ace hardware store had the M2 nuts/bolts in 100 paks for like $13 total but it's a BIG Ace hardware.

Be patient and, uh, sort keys into little piles or something.

I have an Ace Hardware nearby, but they only had ten pieces. I am guessing it is not a popular size.
I ordered the hardware on-line from the link you had in the wiki.

Its all good though, I should have it in a week or so.

[bigpook]

lol, dude. I was just drilling some holes in a piece of plastic. : )

"He always smells like a fresh cut piece of wood"

Yeah man, thats me.

[skcheng]

I just checked out the other listings and the $130 Model M Mini is the best deal he has going??   Some of those prices are simply outrageous.  At least compared to other Ebay sellers.

Someone bought it!!!   A Blue label "dirty" Space Saving Mini sold at the Buy it Now.   Wow!

Mini Link