Trying to find the right keyboard

[Shintsu]

Hello, I registered here to ask about finding a good keyboard. I would ask on forums I'm already registered on but I feel most people would have no sense of appreciation for what I'm talking about and simply recommend me cheapo keyboards. Thusly please bear with my long winded post.

So for the longest time I have used membrane keyboards. I know people say they're mushy and yucky and etc, but they never seemed so bad to me (and yes I am a touch typist). I never made mistakes on the old membrane keyboards due to their design or anything. My first specialty keyboard purchase where I looked it up and bought it was a Saitek Eclipse - the original one that included the gaming pad and all that jazz. It was a great keyboard to me, I never used that silly macro pad though and realized all I need out of a keyboard is the basic functions.

Sadly it wore out (To be fair, from me erm...dropping it with added force one time...). It still worked but the enter key had to be reglued and yeah that was kinda a problem for me. Anyway, I bought a newer version of the same thing without the keypad and have been using it for a long time much to my own satisfaction.

Well I had recently discovered all about mechanical keyboards and recalled those old IBM's from my early school days. I always did like them to show off how fast I could type. So we actually had one of these in our basement being unused. I dusted it off and hooked it up, surprisingly the springs weren't as obnoxious as I thought but they are quite noticable when typing super fast. I do not like the tall keys on the IBM - they require too much force to depress and feel tiring to type on.

Now I'm a gamer, so that's the main use of my keyboards but I obviously type lots on them too - papers and long posts like this one. So for kicks I started looking around. I originally was thinking about a Das Keyboard - but the price made sure that didn't happen yet. I stumbled across a review of the ABS M1 keyboard saying it was pretty nice without being super noisy. At $70 I wasn't looking to run out and buy it but I looked and saw it on sale for $30 at Newegg, then I found a promo code making it $20 with free shipping. So I splurged and bought it on a whim. I liked the looks and the layout was one I thought I liked.

Anyway I'm using it right now - gotta say I find it strange. It feels cramped IMO - here's what my Saitek was like (I originally paid $30 for this - mine is red backlight but same exact layout):


Please note the spacing between the arrow keys and the numpad and main keys. Now here is the ABS M1 (photo borrowed from another member here):


That same area is super tiny on this one and it feels cramped to my fingers. Another thing that quirks me to no end and keeps screwing me up - please note the dip on the caps lock key between the A key - the ABS does not have this and it bugs me to NO END. The Ctrl keys are also noticably smaller and uncomfortable to me compared to my old Saitek. The Saitek layout (Enter key, large backspace, caps lock with dip) is the kind I like which is actually the same as the IBM Model M but I dislike the Model M's tall keys and feel - it takes too much to push the keys. I like the ABS keys feel but they again are feeling a bit too stiff for my taste (Not as bad as the IBM). I'm kinda gonna see if it's just a matter of being new to me or if I really don't like the ABS feel, but I notice many times when I push a key they need more force and sometimes they don't click but still activate. My Saitek was not a mushy feeling keyboard to me and was rather noisy despite being membrane - it made lots of racket if I typed fast on it.

So I'm a bit befuddled now - I'm a gamer and that's what I use my keyboard for when not typing long forum posts. The Das Keyboard is out now as I see it uses that same style Caps Lock and I will not pay that much for a layout that doesn't suit me. Another note about this ABS - the spacebar developed a squeak when I pushed it that was driving me nuts. I tried to take it off...tried...membrane keys are so easy to pop off but this thing was NOT coming off and I even undid that metal bar. Now I have scratches on my new keyboard but the squeak went away...still steamed about that and I was very careful - they're not in a noticable place but still...

So umm...can anyone help me out with a keyboard recommendation here? I used to think I wanted one of those Logitech G15's but I've never been big on Logitech (Mice yes, Speakers yes - keyboards no). I need a full sized keyboard - I saw the HHKB and to be blunt I don't see why people spend so much money on a super miniature keyboard unless it's the only size that works for them. The lack of function keys would NOT work for me gaming wise. I hate Apple but I'm almost curious what their keyboard feels like (I've only used one for a short while at my university), but cosmetic wise I find it unappealing since the metal and white finish don't match by black Samsung 244T or my Logitech G500 mouse or mousepad. I hate mushy laptop keyboards - the Saitek actually seemed to have the right level of force required...I just hate to think that I can't find a mechanical keyboard I like more and that a cheap membrane keyboard is more pleasing to me than better built keyboards (Not to say I think the Saitek is badly built, but mechanical keyboards are quite durable and I know this). I guess a membrane-like feedback level from a mechanical keyboard would be what I want.

I know some people need like some kind of annoying audible feedback when typing but I don't really so silent keys I like. Again I don't know how much of this ABS I'm just not used to and will grow used to or that I will never get used to. This whole time I'm fighting myself not to put my Saitek back and use it. I never find membrane keys tiring to type on but I can tell the mechanical keys on this keyboard are better built. I am occasionally having problems with striking stretch keys, the T key for example I keep having to re-hit for some reason. Do any of you have a keyboard you think would be suitable for me or am I really just one of those people who can use membrane keyboards without a problem? To be fair I hate those cheap $20 ones and the Saitek one I swear I think used to be $50-60 and was well right at that price.

[elbowglue]

A few comments:  You have noted the space around the ABS M1 arrow keys is smaller than on your saitek.  A lot of us here like smaller keyboards so we can have the mouse more midline.  Some of the smallest full sized keyboards (such as the filco) have a small space around the arrow cluster, because having a big space around the arrow cluster just wastes space imho.  It feels different, but once you get used to it you'll like it a lot in my opinion.

Here is a keyboard I highly recommend:

http://www.geminicomputersinc.com/g80-3000lscrc-2.html

It is a full sized keyboard with cherry MX blue switches, has your "dipped" capslock key.  It won't be the best for gaming as it uses cherry blue switches, but it is a joy to type on.  If I were to get a "first mechanical board" this is what I would recommend.

If you want a non clicky low force mechanical switch keyboard, consider a keyboard with cherry brown switches (MX11800, MX8100, Ricercar SPOS, Filco tactile touch).  I would get a cheap one such as a MX11800 or MX8100 before getting an expensive one since some people don't like MX brown's so much.

Oh btw - to fix the squeeky space bar, you need to lubricate where the spacebar stabilizer meets the base of the keyboard.  The squeek comes from the metal of the stabilizer rotating on the plate of the keyboard.

[Shintsu]

A few comments:  You have noted the space around the ABS M1 arrow keys is smaller than on your saitek.  A lot of us here like smaller keyboards so we can have the mouse more midline.  Some of the smallest full sized keyboards (such as the filco) have a small space around the arrow cluster, because having a big space around the arrow cluster just wastes space imho.  It feels different, but once you get used to it you'll like it a lot in my opinion.

Hmm, well I'm not sure if this matters but I have a tray under my desk for the keyboard and that's all that goes here. My mouse is on the upper portion of my desk so I could use a huge honkin' keyboard and it wouldn't matter to me. But I don't know if you mean this matters on a level of typing familiarity/comfort or just convenience of footprint on the desk being small. To be honest I dunno how people use their mouse next to the keyboard on this kind of desk setup - but my mousepad is a Ratpadz XT and it's huge - it'd never fit next to the keyboard in this tray.

I wish there was a place to sample keyboards in person...all that crap at Best Buy is membrane based so that wouldn't even be any good.

[hyperlinked]

If you're having problems because there's not enough space between the arrow key set and the keypad on one side and the regular keyboard on the other side, I'd give yourself more time to adjust to that. It simply sounds like a matter of being very used to one style of keyboard. I've made myself very at home with numerous kinds of keyboards, including Apple keyboards. I've found that every switch pisses me off at first, but if I simply give it a chance, minor issues like the spacing between the arrow set and the rest of the board is not a lasting issue.

The style of caps lock key is another story though. My guess is that you need that tactile ridge to give you an idea where your fingers are on the keyboard. There's probably a replacement caps lock key out there for you, but I have no idea where.

If you're having problems feeling your way around with the ABS M1, I don't think switching to an Apple keyboard is going to be the answer and I'm not talking about the looks clashing with  your monitor. They're not bad keyboards, but I can't imagine them being good for gaming.

[NOMiS]

Hehe that's my picture.

If you don't like the stiff feeling M1 keys like me, you might like browns a lot. The switches feel a lot better and might solve your T key problem(if you're tapping it lightly).

I agree with everyone else though, you need more time to adjust.

[Shintsu]

Hehe that's my picture.

If you don't like the stiff feeling M1 keys like me, you might like browns a lot. The switches feel a lot better and might solve your T key problem(if you're tapping it lightly).

I agree with everyone else though, you need more time to adjust.

Well noted, I'll give this keyboard longer but I know if I loved it I'd already be super comfortable using it. The Caps Lock key is proving to be a much larger issue than I ever realized it would be - I apparently rest my ring finger there when not typing and use it as a guide for finding the keys and without it take a bit longer to find the keys on the keyboard. In this regard I actually prefer the IBM Model M - other than it's keys requiring all that force to depress.

Are there any keyboards with Cherry Browns that aren't weird looking keyboards like POS keyboards or ones with a mouse thing on them? I just want a basic keyboard, and in this case a particularly cheap one since I'm not sure I'll like it.

[elbowglue]

A regular shaped cherry brown keyboard will cost you a pretty penny.

http://www.datacal.com/p-1254-cherry-g80-3000-keyboard-with-brown-switches.aspx
Regular format PCB mounted cherry brown - $97

http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_104key&pid=fkb104meb
Regular format Plate mounted cherry brown - $109

http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_87key&pid=fkbn87meb
Tenkeyless 87 key plate mounted cherry brown with NKRO - $121

http://store.daskeyboard.net/prmossiwi2wi.html
Das Model S plate mounted cherry browns with 2 windows keys and letters on the keys - $135

It's a lot cheaper to get a used keyboard with funny layout to decide if you like the switch.  Note the three bottom keyboards do not have a dual-level caps lock.  That only exists on the first keyboard I mentioned.

I found it easier to take a compaq MX11800 and chop the end off of it.

[Rajagra]

I have one of the Saiteks you have pictured. The layout is remarkably sensible for a gaming board. Or any board for that matter. The key feel is ... rather dead. You could be charitable and call it damped, but you can't escape the fact that it is quite bland. After the initial collapse of the dome at the top of travel it seems to move 2mm in a linear way, then there is another 1mm of squishyness at the bottom. I don't have it plugged in, and can't remember if you have to push through that final 1mm to get the keys to register. You may not think of that as mushy, but it is definitely there and gives the keys their soft landing and relative quietness. And yes, it is quiet compared to most mechanicals.

I was going to suggest a Dell AT101W as an alternative, but that uses Alps switches, as does the ABS M1, so they may be similar in feel (does anyone have both and can comment?) The AT101W layout would be closer to what you are used to though.

I don't think there are any mechanical keys that feel exactly like the Saitek, but the closest would be Cherry black switches. Maybe a Cherry G80-3000 with black switches would suit you. They are heavier than other Cherry switches, but I think the actual force is close to what the Saitek needs.

Most mechanical switches will have more travel than the Saitek. But they activate higher up, so in reality you only have to move them the same amount. Takes getting used to, learning that you don't have to hammer the keys all the way down to get them to work.

When you say the Model M's keys are too high, I think you are referring to the curvature of the rows of keys. The Saitek has all the rows in a straight plane. The Model M is probably one of the most "sculpted" out there, so that is a big difference.

You would love Topre switches, but the price is more than you want to pay.

Because the Saitek is so 'damped' I'm reminded of the Apple Enhanced Keyboard with dampened Alps sliders. I don't have one, so can't compare. But if you see someone here selling an Alps board where they've installed the AEK's dampened sliders you should try it out.

[ch_123]

The AEKII doesn't have the ridge on the Caps Lock though.

I'm convinced that the ridge in the Caps Lock was made by IBM because -

A) It kept the Caps Lock key sufficiently narrow as to avoid using a stabilizer bar.
B) The I think there was some hackery involved to keep keys the same size to cut down on manufacturing complications. The caps lock minus the ridge is the same size as a Ctrl, Alt, Tab and |\ on a US Model M, seem to be more that just a coincidence to me.

Therefore, any time I see a weirdly sized caps lock key, or one that uses a stabilizer bar, I always feel that whoever designed the Model M would have the last laugh if they knew what other companies were doing.

[ch_123]

So, why did the Selectric have that sort of arrangement then?

[ch_123]

I'd make some remark about pronounce ridges... but it's too late in the night...

[Shintsu]

So what do Cherry Blacks feel like compared to this ABS M1? Require more force to push down or less or same? Also, do you all think Cherry Reds would possibly work for me?

Again I've typed on Saitek keyboards for probably the past 5+ years and the old one still worked fine and did not to me feel like it required any extra force to push the keys from the very first day I bought it. I dunno as far as getting used to this not pushing the keys all the way down, if I try and lightly push the keys I find many times I don't push it far enough for it to activate. I get used to the noise they make as I type and sometimes when I stretch for the T key it doesn't make a sound at all so I keep either double pressing it or dropping T's out of things I'm typing.

I know people speak about the Cherry Blacks though for preventing accidental depressing, I never did it on the Saitek so I dunno if I really need that much accidental depression prevention. Comparative to this ABS M1 what is the IBM Model M actually rated at for activation force? I've been too busy to game with this keyboard to feel what it's like, but for typing I gotta say I keep dropping letters out of words on accident, typing in the incorrect order for some letter combos and occasionally adding an extra letter at the end of words I'm typing. I'm going on what I've been used to, and I never did any of this on my Saitek. But I feel that there must be a mechanical board out there for me, I just gotta find it. I feel like I'm making myself type much harder on this keyboard than I ever had to with the Saitek, but I suppose that is supposed to be true of membrane keyboards vs mechanical.

[Arc'xer]

Cherry mx Black: Linear 40-60-80 in grams(or centi-newton), starts off at 40g - actuate 60g - Bottom out 80g. The ABS M1 uses Alps switches. It's different system compared to the MX, both mechanical but different modes of operations

For me cherry mx blacks don't feel stiff per se. More of a denser feeling, rather than heavy as normally said.

I'd say stiffness is incorrect more like resistive. Stiff was this Microsoft internet pro I used which was worn out and dirty as hell. Smooth and stupidly sensitive. I wouldn't say you can't tell when they actuate it's certainly harder but their actuation point is very misleading compared to the blues. The blues have quite a bit of travel at least in feeling to actuate but the blacks are linear with no increase in resistance as great as the tactile bump area of the blues, it does increase just subtly and linearly.

Their spring is strange as well they feel like they rebound quickly almost pushing your fingers. But sometimes it feels like they don't come up fast enough.

Of course you'll be bottoming out all the time on it. If you type more softly you can actuate it near the half-way mark. Noise wise when typing softly it's very quiet, but when bottoming out and rebounding it makes a very thocky noise due to the noise of the body and the desk I'm using, sounds similar to a Topre in some of the sound clips I heard.

I never used the ABS M1 nor did I buy one but it's considered a non-clicky, tactile switch. Meaning it has a tactile bump that can be felt. Although it's non-clicky people say it's loud because A) They bottom them out and B) the desk material reverberations.

Though I wouldn't be surprised if people would consider them similar feeling. Due to alps having slightly heavier springs. Again I've yet to use an alps switch so this is just going by research I've done.

[Otterclock]

Sorry if you said already and I overlooked it, but are you left handed and use the arrows for movement? You mentioned that area feeling cramped, and I don't really even know anyone use uses those keys on a regular basis for anything game-wise.

[Shintsu]

Sorry if you said already and I overlooked it, but are you left handed and use the arrows for movement? You mentioned that area feeling cramped, and I don't really even know anyone use uses those keys on a regular basis for anything game-wise.

I didn't say - I'm right handed though. I play RTS games sometimes and have to use the cursor keys for navigating the screen around - just feels unusual coming from the Saitek with the large gaps. For some reason the whole keyboard in general feels somewhat cramped to me, the Caps Lock key lacking the familiar dip is probably what's causing this feeling more than anything though I suppose. The Saitek also had an oversized spacebar and larger Ctrl and Alt buttons - on this ABS M1 the Ctrl and Alt keys are the same size as the Windows key lending the likelyhood I might accidentally bump it instead of the intended keys.

EDIT: Honestly, why does this keyboard not register the T key so much? It's getting on my nerves, I keep having to go back and hit it again because it doesn't activate when I hit it. Is this something I'm doing wrong or is it the keyboard? I'm hitting it just as fully as the other keys so I don't get it. It's not lending this keyboard well on itself...I will continue to force myself to use this keyboard for at least a week or two before I put the Saitek back.