Realforce 87U??? I don't get it???

[skcheng]

Please don't read this if you are easily offended.   This is a keyboard and all views are my own.   Please do not contact your attorney or suffer any emotional distress over the following opinions.  

Thanks to a Cooler than Cool Geekhacker, I purchased the black on black Realforce 87U at a great price.   Well, I just don't get it??   I prefer my Logitech G15??  

Maybe I just don't know what I'm doing or maybe this keyboard is an acquired taste, but right now.....after I type this, I'm sticking this keyboard back in it's box and it's going on the shelf.  

Complaints:

1.  Without my infra-red goggles, I cannot read the print.  Yes, I can touch type, but when I look down, I prefer to see some lettering.  Especially if that was the original intent.  

2.  Sound.  There really isn't any.  Sounds like a rubber dome or my linear switch keyboards.   I'm sure that's a preference thing.   And yes I know that some people prefer quiet, but it's not exactly quiet when you're bottoming out with every keystroke.......more on that later.  

3.  Sharp keys.  Does anyone else think that the edges of the Realforce keycaps are too tactile??  I don't always type in the exact center of the key and I just find it uncomfortable when you hit the edges of the space bar and some of the other keys.   I notice a indent on my left pinky and my right thumb from trying to type on this thing.   OUCH!!  

4.  It's tiring trying to type on this keyboard.   The actuation point on the keys isn't really high.   It's about 1/2 way down to bottoming out.   I need to concentrate hard on typing much lighter and it's really f@#$$ing with me.   I know others have had sex with the Topre, but for me it's more like mental masturbation.   I actually want to punch someone right now.    How Max Lugar likes this keyboard along with the Model AT F is beyond me???   As I grow more and more fond of the AT F......the more I type on the Realforce, the less I like it.  

5.  I hate the RE^LFORCE label.   Who thought that  an inverted V would look good in red on a silver and gold label on a black keyboard???   Not as ugly as the Unicomp LED strip, but close.   Maybe some cool blue LED thing to justify the huge price tag???  Or how about black on black LOL??  

6.  The cost.  This thing is expensive.  But I guess that's part of the appeal??  We like expensive things and we'll often justify the cost.  Right now I can't recommend that someone new to mechanical keyboards spring the $200+ for this board.  

So in closure, I'd love to hear if any other Ghackers feel the same way that I do??  Or am I just nuts??   Do I need to give it 6 mos in order to understand "Good feeling of oneness with cup rubber"

Sex with the Topre???   I don't think so??   I'm kicking her and her board chow OUT!!  

skc

[ch_123]

I didn't go through this phase of this experience. Maybe it was because I got my HHKB for €100 inc shipping?

[Mental Hobbit]

Have you tried having sex with it? Maybe that's it's true purpose. Or at least a necessary initiation.



(No, I don't own a Topre and most likely never will.)

[JBert]

Disclaimer: I don't own a Topre so I can't say more than what is said below. Just rehashing some thoughts.

1. Aesthetics. Can't discuss on that one, you like it or you don't.

2. It is a rubber dome, although a fancy one. You only have the sound of the air under the dome being squeezed through the special holes in the rubber sheet.

3. Some people actually pulled off the space bar and reversed it. So yes, it can be an issue depending on how you hold your thumb on the spacebar.

4. What is the key weight on the model you have? 45g, 55g or mixed weights?
I could understand you'd bottom out if you are used to a model F with approximately 60g keys. It takes time to learn to not bottom out on a lighter keyboard, even itlnstln has trouble going from brown Cherries to a HHKB.

5. Aesthetics again. At least someone at Realforce thought it'd be good enough. :-)

6. This thing has a ridiculous price tag, and yet, nobody else is doing anything similar to get the price down. We'll have to wait untill the patents expire before cheaper clones can emerge.

[skcheng]

It happens with Topres.   The initial reaction is often "meh".  Karlito had the same reaction.

I wouldn't sell it quite yet.  After a long day on a Model M you might find the Topre quite relaxing.

Was this the All 55g or the Weighted (normal) model?

It's the weighted version.   I'm now back to typing on my nuts/bolts modified Space Saving Mini.  All I can say is "aaaahhhhh".    I'm back home now after a scary vacation  

Something tells me that I would prefer the 55g weighted version.   Then again, maybe not??  

Is the HHKB2 a different beast?

I just went through part of the Karlito thread.   I didn't actuate the "a" or the ";" keys accidentally, but those switches feel broken to me.  As if they need to be replaced or something??   I forgot to mention that the variable weighting just feels weird to me.   Light, med, or heavy for me......not a combo of the both.

BTW, who was Laptop Girl???  

skc

[ch_123]

We'll have to wait untill the patents expire before cheaper clones can emerge.

I somehow doubt that there are going to be clones of the mechanism - it is rather complicated relative to how good it is in terms of reliability and feel.

[skcheng]

I didn't go through this phase of this experience. Maybe it was because I got my HHKB for €100 inc shipping?

Cost isn't a factor for me.   If this board was 2x as much money, I still couldn't convince myself to like it at this point.   Ditto if it was 1/2 as much.

[skcheng]

Have you tried having sex with it? Maybe that's it's true purpose. Or at least a necessary initiation.



(No, I don't own a Topre and most likely never will.)

I couldn't get past 1st base.  Just didn't have the stomach for it.  Maybe after a little too much single malt whiskey.  Got some GREAT ones in to taste.   Longmorn 16yr, Ardbeg Rollercoaster, Glenmorangie Signet, Lagavulin 16.  Yummy!!

[skcheng]

Disclaimer: I don't own a Topre so I can't say more than what is said below. Just rehashing some thoughts.

1. Aesthetics. Can't discuss on that one, you like it or you don't.

I'm just joking sort of.  The rest of board other than the label looks fairly normal.  And the blue lit up Caps Lock and Numlock keys are actually quite nice.   So.....it's not an ugly board.  It's a fairly attractive board with a butt ugly label stuck on the upper left.  I would take a black sharpie to it if it wasn't so blasphemous  

2. It is a rubber dome, although a fancy one. You only have the sound of the air under the dome being squeezed through the special holes in the rubber sheet.

I'm sure many would disagree and contend that the almighty capacitive switch is the bees kness in the mechanical keyboard world.

3. Some people actually pulled off the space bar and reversed it. So yes, it can be an issue depending on how you hold your thumb on the spacebar.

4. What is the key weight on the model you have? 45g, 55g or mixed weights?
I could understand you'd bottom out if you are used to a model F with approximately 60g keys. It takes time to learn to not bottom out on a lighter keyboard, even itlnstln has trouble going from brown Cherries to a HHKB.

I have the mixed weight version.  And yes, I did acknowledge that I probably hit the keys harder.  But dust particles can actuate that "A" key.   itlnstln is selling his HHKB btw.  

5. Aesthetics again. At least someone at Realforce thought it'd be good enough. :-)

6. This thing has a ridiculous price tag, and yet, nobody else is doing anything similar to get the price down. We'll have to wait untill the patents expire before cheaper clones can emerge.

Boutique products tend to have boutique price tags.  I'm sure the Realforce and the HHKB have their loyal following.   Dcozart who sold me my very first mechanical keyboard (Filco Cherry Blue) mentioned to me that his entire group uses the Realforce.....mainly the 55g version.   As long as Topre corporation can profit from selling these boards, they will continue to exist.  I doubt the price will drop anytime soon.  I shudder to think what a "new" IBM Model AT F with it's full metal construction and buckling spring over capacitive membrane switches would cost in today's dollars.  Or yen or Euro??
 
Thx for the feedback!!  Now I need to get busy modifying the space bar on my AT F.  

skc

[Mental Hobbit]

I'm sure many would disagree and contend that the almighty capacitive switch is the bees kness in the mechanical keyboard world.  

I've always wondered what capacitive feels like. :madgrin:

[ch_123]

I wonder what a membrane switch feels like!

[LordGurciullo]

Hey dude. I'm really sorry you feel that way. I got my Realforce (the japanese one with different weighted keys) and think it is the best keyboard I've ever touched. Coming from a model m... you may have been expecting something different. I think the one word that covers topre boards is Elegance. I guess it is all preference. Ripster often says people say "meh".... which I guess means "what is all the fuss about" when people first touch it. I didn't feel that way at all. I immediately felt extremely amazed and LOVED it right away. and then in a few weeks it became even more apparent that it was truly a masterpiece of creation. What I really want now is an all 55g topre.... a japanese happy hacking and a 30 g topre. Unfortunately I have not even enough money to eat.... so gonna have to wait.

In any event I'm very sorry you didn't like it. I'm sure someone will buy it from you if you want to sell. HELL, If I had some money I'd try to buy it from you if you were selling. Anyways - try it for a few more weeks. If it still does NOTHING for you... then I guess its just not your thing. *curious* - how fast do you type.... I think topres really come out as the star player when you are typing over 110 WPM.

[skcheng]

Hey dude. I'm really sorry you feel that way. I got my Realforce (the japanese one with different weighted keys) and think it is the best keyboard I've ever touched. Coming from a model m... you may have been expecting something different. I think the one word that covers topre boards is Elegance. I guess it is all preference. Ripster often says people say "meh".... which I guess means "what is all the fuss about" when people first touch it. I didn't feel that way at all. I immediately felt extremely amazed and LOVED it right away. and then in a few weeks it became even more apparent that it was truly a masterpiece of creation. What I really want now is an all 55g topre.... a japanese happy hacking and a 30 g topre. Unfortunately I have not even enough money to eat.... so gonna have to wait.

In any event I'm very sorry you didn't like it. I'm sure someone will buy it from you if you want to sell. HELL, If I had some money I'd try to buy it from you if you were selling. Anyways - try it for a few more weeks. If it still does NOTHING for you... then I guess its just not your thing. *curious* - how fast do you type.... I think topres really come out as the star player when you are typing over 110 WPM.

Yup, I just HAD to have a Realforce based on the raves here on Geekhack.  It was the next logical step for me after numerous cherry mx boards and various IBM B/S models.  

I don't type fast (70-80 wpm) and I don't type all day either.   Right now I type much faster on either my Filco Blue or Space Saving Mini.  Both just feel "right" to me.   No sharp edges digging into my fingers and no annoying "slam" when bottoming out.  

At some point I'll revisit the board, but right now I'm just plain happy that it's back in its box.  

And no big......I'm very happy that I purchased the board.  Hopefully this purchase alone will strip me of my "junior member" status  

[Rajagra]

I think the real problem is you rest your wrist on the desk as you type. Amirite?

If so, use a good wrist rest or get in habit of making your hands hover. Or if you think it isn't worth the effort, go back to the joys of the G15. Each to his own.

[skcheng]

I wonder what a membrane switch feels like!

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That Apple chiclet board is what finally drove me over here to Geekhack.  Sorry Imav?   It's like typing on granite.   I was hoping to replace those boards at my front desk  (I'm not up there much) with HHKB2s or something similar.   But now I may just wait to pick up a pair of Guru-boards.

[skcheng]

I think the real problem is you rest your wrist on the desk as you type. Amirite?

If so, use a good wrist rest or get in habit of making your hands hover. Or if you think it isn't worth the effort, go back to the joys of the G15. Each to his own.

Hey Raj,

I actually type with the Humanscale gel wrist rest.  Elbows supported by my Humanscale Freedom chair.   But yes, I don't hover.  I don't know anyone who does??   Does anyone have a picture of proper hover type technique.  

I don't know if I'd call the G15 a joy, but imho the Realforce keys feel more like the ones on my G15 or my MY Cherry boards than either a Cherry MX or a B/S.   YMMV ....

skc

[ch_123]

I find those aluminium boards alright... They're better than some crapped out rubber dome keyboard.

[Rajagra]

Does anyone have a picture of proper hover type technique.

Back straight, head upright, elbows around 90°, wrists straight, and most importantly ... SMILE! A positive attitude can make the difference! :smile:



I bought my 87U with a leather on wood rest that is slightly higher than the front of the keyboard, and that works perfectly. I imagine gel is more comfortable, but may not encourage good habits / keep your hands high enough.

[Nonmouse]

Another example of hover...

[bigpook]

I don't think I would do the 'hover' thing. Seems like a lot of work to keep the hands suspended over the keyboard.

I use a wrist rest as I type and my elbows are not resting on anything.

[Nonmouse]

I don't think I would do the 'hover' thing. Seems like a lot of work to keep the hands suspended over the keyboard.

I use a wrist rest as I type and my elbows are not resting on anything.

Yeah, but look at the forearms on that girl!  That's some definition!

[bigpook]

: ) On second look, yeah,  she looks a bit pumped up. But still...

Ideally, the monitor would be higher too. Maybe its the angle of the picture but it looks like she is looking down at it. That would get old.

[didjamatic]

If you're used to pounding on any of the heavier mechanicals, then moving to a Topre is a bit like working on a jackhammer all day and then going on a date.  You've got to relax and stop handling your date like it's heavy machinery.  

Basically, it takes time to learn type without pounding or forcefully bottoming out, learning to use capacitive switches to their potential.  When I first got a Topre board, i went back and forth loving it, hating it, not being sure.  But once I learned to relax and enjoy typing on it and stopped bottoming out hard, it became my daily driver at work and home.

[skcheng]

If you're used to pounding on any of the heavier mechanicals, then moving to a Topre is a bit like working on a jackhammer all day and then going on a date.  You've got to relax and stop handling your date like it's heavy machinery.  

Basically, it takes time to learn type without pounding or forcefully bottoming out, learning to use capacitive switches to their potential.  When I first got a Topre board, i went back and forth loving it, hating it, not being sure.  But once I learned to relax and enjoy typing on it and stopped bottoming out hard, it became my daily driver at work and home.

LOL Didj.   So is this about right??

Real mechanical keyboard:




Realforce Keyboard:

[skcheng]

Back straight, head upright, elbows around 90°, wrists straight, and most importantly ... SMILE! A positive attitude can make the difference! :smile:

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I bought my 87U with a leather on wood rest that is slightly higher than the front of the keyboard, and that works perfectly. I imagine gel is more comfortable, but may not encourage good habits / keep your hands high enough.

Okay, I just tried typing like that with limp wrists and a big smile on my face and all I can say is "fuggit dat".  

Another dislike of mine in one word.......dipswitch.   Or is that two words???

[skcheng]

Yeah, but look at the forearms on that girl!  That's some definition!

Hey, was it pc back then to call a member of the female persuasion "girl"

[Nonmouse]

Hey, was it pc back then to call a member of the female persuasion "girl"

Absolutely!  

[Superfluous Parentheses]

Hey, was it pc back then to call a member of the female persuasion "girl"

Would you prefer "little lady"?

[kishy]

DIP switch, in fact. For switches in a Dual In-line Package.

[skcheng]

Would you prefer "little lady"?

Absolutely.  Or Ms. with the diesel forearms  :-))

[skcheng]

DIP switch, in fact. For switches in a Dual In-line Package.

Thanks Kishy.  Dip switch for Dip sticks.  

[keyb_gr]

Sharp edges on a Topre?!
The only board which ever bugged me in that regard was the Chicony KB-5182, known to be a little on the cheap side. Swapping most of the alphanumeric keys with those from a Cherry key set largely fixed that.

Anyway, if the Topres seem too light and not loud enough, I'd recommend sticking to Ms, Fs and Cherry blues.

[Xede]

1. If you need to see letters to type then you can't touch type.

2. I like the thock sound but the cherry mx and BS are fine too.

3. Doesn't bother me, not much different from filco's spacebar.

6. Yeah it's expensive; cheap when compared to audiophile items though.

The difference between going from rubber dome to cherry is much more noticeable then rubber dome to capacitive at first.

[skcheng]

1. If you need to see letters to type then you can't touch type.

2. I like the thock sound but the cherry mx and BS are fine too.

3. Doesn't bother me, not much different from filco's spacebar.

6. Yeah it's expensive; cheap when compared to audiophile items though.

The difference between going from rubber dome to cherry is much more noticeable then rubber dome to capacitive at first.

Did you immediately know where the hidden numpad numbers were??   And how do you define audiophile, since I'm an audiophile.   Are we comparing cheap speakers to esoteric sky's the limit stuff??    I'm comparing keyboards to keyboards??   No sense in comparing keyboard pricing to, say, my love for fancy mechanical watches, is there??

skc

[Xede]

Of course I could see where the numpad was it still has writing on the keys but just not as easy to read as white, I personally don't use the numpad because the upper numbers are easier for me. I compare the two prices because even though Realforces are expensive they could be on par with audiophile and it would still be worth the buy.

[didjamatic]

The india ink on Realforce boards is incredible, I love it as it's not easy to see so it motivates you to touch type, but if you need to see something, the option is still there.

"With the blast shield down I can't even see, how am I supposed to fight?" - Luke Skywalker
"Chill out, just imagine you're using a Realforce 87u and kick ass semi-otaku style" - Obi Wan

[duhokay]

I agree, it's better than having to flip your board over. I find that when I get on a keyboard with visible keys now I tend to look more.

[bionicroach]

I recently purchased an 87u as well, and I've gotta admit I'm having a bit of a "meh" reaction myself.

After typing on Blue Cherries every day for the past couple of years, I'm having a very hard time adjusting to the much subtler tactile feedback of the Topre switches.  This seems to be causing two main side-effects:

My fingers are actually getting MORE fatigued from using the 87u because I tend to bottom out pretty much constantly, so even though the switches require less force, overall I feel like I'm doing more work.



• My typing accuracy overall seems lower, I assume because I'm second-guessing myself more since I'm so used to subconsciously counting those Cherry clicks to match the letters of each word.  I never realized how much my brain apparently relies on this when typing in masked password fields, etc.

I will say, though, that there is definitely nothing "meh" about the fit and finish of the board.  It is truly a rarity these days to come across a product that looks and feels as if the person who made it actually put some love and care into the process.  With as many hours of our lives as we geeks spend interacting with our gadgets, it's a shame that most gear is made just well enough to hopefully outlast the warranty period and/or planned obsolescence projection, whichever comes first.  It just doesn't seem like anyone's making the "vintage computers of tomorrow" today.  I firmly believe that over time, all the pleasant little details (or even just absence of annoyances) found in high-quality, well-designed objects add up to a fairly significant net gain in overall day-to-day contentedness.  I get the impression that the folks at Topre understand this, and I applaud them for it.  

So, like skcheng, I will probably be holding on to my 87u for the time being to see if my preferences change.  However, it seems like what I really want is a Cherry board with Topre build quality...sigh.

[skcheng]

I recently purchased an 87u as well, and I've gotta admit I'm having a bit of a "meh" reaction myself.

After typing on Blue Cherries every day for the past couple of years, I'm having a very hard time adjusting to the much subtler tactile feedback of the Topre switches.  This seems to be causing two main side-effects:

My fingers are actually getting MORE fatigued from using the 87u because I tend to bottom out pretty much constantly, so even though the switches require less force, overall I feel like I'm doing more work.



• My typing accuracy overall seems lower, I assume because I'm second-guessing myself more since I'm so used to subconsciously counting those Cherry clicks to match the letters of each word.  I never realized how much my brain apparently relies on this when typing in masked password fields, etc.

I will say, though, that there is definitely nothing "meh" about the fit and finish of the board.  It is truly a rarity these days to come across a product that looks and feels as if the person who made it actually put some love and care into the process.  With as many hours of our lives as we geeks spend interacting with our gadgets, it's a shame that most gear is made just well enough to hopefully outlast the warranty period and/or planned obsolescence projection, whichever comes first.  It just doesn't seem like anyone's making the "vintage computers of tomorrow" today.  I firmly believe that over time, all the pleasant little details (or even just absence of annoyances) found in high-quality, well-designed objects add up to a fairly significant net gain in overall day-to-day contentedness.  I get the impression that the folks at Topre understand this, and I applaud them for it.  

So, like skcheng, I will probably be holding on to my 87u for the time being to see if my preferences change.  However, it seems like what I really want is a Cherry board with Topre build quality...sigh.

I think you phrased my viewpoints better than I did??  

So.....what do you think of the logo??  Like it??  Hate it??

Thanks for the comments.  I appreciate it.

skc

[elbowglue]

I have tried the topre 86uk, also topre 101 - one caveat is that these were both used boards but in very good condition.

I liked them at first, however coming from using cherry browns and cherry blues extensively, I found the topres to have less rebound force, that is, it did not push my fingers back as much deep into the switch.  The 45 gram switches seem to have a nice snap to them midway down in the switch, but when you are deep into the switch, a cherry blue or brown will push back on your finger, allowing you to rebound and move to the next press quickly.  For these reasons I found topres to be much more fatiguing to type on with my fingers compared with cherry blues or cherry browns.

I gave it a really good try however I never got hooked, thus I sold my topres.

Also, I didn't like the black on black much, I found it somewhat frustrating as I could not read the keycaps easily unless I looked really really close.  I'm 34 years old and I don't think my eyes are getting old yet, so I expect others on this forum might have the same experience.  The black on black keys were cool looking, but if I wanted an "elite" looking keyboard I would probably want to go with all black or all white.  (I'm just being sarcastic here, I don't think blank keyboards are that K00Lzz anyhow)

Part of one's dilemma is that you get an MX11800 with cherry browns, or ricercar SPOS with cherry browns for like $30-$50 and you think, "this feels pretty nice... I wonder how a topre would feel if they are $250!".. Then you get one and it's tough to be totally objective given the premium price point.

Anyhow for what it's worth, I am a big blue and brown cherry fan.  I've tried topres, I'm not going back.  Others may appreciate them more than I, but I've made my decision.

Oh yeah, and the low force keys (30grams and 35grams) don't snap as much, they feel a little weak in my opinion.

[skcheng]

The india ink on Realforce boards is incredible, I love it as it's not easy to see so it motivates you to touch type, but if you need to see something, the option is still there.

"With the blast shield down I can't even see, how am I supposed to fight?" - Luke Skywalker
"Chill out, just imagine you're using a Realforce 87u and kick ass semi-otaku style" - Obi Wan

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Yeah,  I guess the option is there if I want to shine a bright flashlight on the board while I'm typing  :-)

[itlnstln]

I liked them at first, however coming from using cherry browns and  cherry blues extensively, I found the topres to have less rebound force,  that is, it did not push my fingers back as much deep into the switch.   The 45 gram switches seem to have a nice snap to them midway down in  the switch, but when you are deep into the switch, a cherry blue or  brown will push back on your finger, allowing you to rebound and move to  the next press quickly.  For these reasons I found topres to be much  more fatiguing to type on with my fingers compared with cherry blues or  cherry browns.

I gave it a really good try however I never got hooked, thus I sold my  topres.

I'll second this.  The 45g. switches on the Realforce numpad are great, the switches on the HHKB suck.  The only difference that I know about is that one is mounted on a metal plate (Realforce) and the other on a plastic plate (HHKB).  The Realforce feels like is has the same resistance as Cherry browns, but the HHKB feels about 10-15g. heavier with a harder tactile bump.  The HHKB is very fatiguing to me and doesn't really feel all that special.  More than anything, though, I miss the springiness of the Cherry switches.  If the HHKB felt more like the RF numberpad, I wouldn't have as much issue with it, but all-in-all, I'm not all that impressed.

[didjamatic]

I like the Realforce logo, it's small and simple.  If you don't like it, there is an easy fix for it.  



Skcheng, It's a bummer you didn't like them more.  I thought for sure you'd be a fan.  I miss the good feeling of oneness with cup rubber.  

[itlnstln]

If there were an all-45g version of the Realforce available in the US, I would be somewhat receptive to giving them another shot, but I was pretty disappointed in the HHKB implementation.  It's unfortunate, too, because the layout is tits.

[skcheng]

I like the Realforce logo, it's small and simple.  If you don't like it, there is an easy fix for it.  

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Skcheng, It's a bummer you didn't like them more.  I thought for sure you'd be a fan.  I miss the good feeling of oneness with cup rubber.   :(

The logo isn't that bad :-))

I still might be a fan.   I'll give it another shot one day.   But maybe everyone is right.   I'm so happy with the IBM B/S and the AT-F buckling-capacitive switch and Cherry Browns and Blues, that it could be possible that the difference in feel/actuation are what's throwing me off.  And no.....I'm not going to start hovering when I type LOL.

Thanks for the electrical tape tip.    Now that deserves a spot in the modification forum!!  :laugh:

[bionicroach]

So.....what do you think of the logo??  Like it??  Hate it??

I don't mind the Realforce logo, though I think it would complement the stealth, semi-otaku look of the rest of the board better if they'd just left it off.  If there has to be a logo for branding purposes, I actually prefer the font of the Topre Corporation logo on the package to the Realforce logo on the product.  A metallic, inlaid, dark-gunmetal colored Topre logo to match the dark grey shade of the key legends would look really sharp, IMHO.

[bionicroach]

This comic is modeled after my wife and I discussing my Realforce purchase:

http://basicinstructions.net/basic-instructions/2010/4/18/how-to-justify-investing-in-quality-merchandise.html

[kriminal]

sigh now i really want to try a topre kb... love the black on charcoal grey of the RF keys.
however im looking and acquiring the white HHKB first. some time in the future...

[bionicroach]

Another part of my do-I-keep-it-or-not conundrum I forgot to mention is that I actually do prefer the Topre switches over Cherries for what I would call "editing" tasks.

When compared to Cherries or BS, arrowing around documents, holding down SHIFT or CTRL while selecting text, repeatedly pressing function keys to step through a debugger, etc, are all *much* more pleasant on the Topre switches.  In these use cases, I find that clicky switches can become annoying and fatiguing pretty quickly and also seem less precise.  I imagine this is one of the main reasons why a lot of programmers on GH seem to be big Topre fans.

Unfortunately, since my employer bought a huge enterprise software package and is paying an army of consultants to implement it, I'm not doing much programming these days.  For firing off tons of emails, writing documentation, and other general office tasks, I feel like I can get a better typing rhythm going with Cherry switches.

[itlnstln]

I thought the programmers liked the HHKB for the layout, but I could be wrong.

[skcheng]

This comic is modeled after my wife and I discussing my Realforce purchase:

http://basicinstructions.net/basic-instructions/2010/4/18/how-to-justify-investing-in-quality-merchandise.html

LOL.  I think my wife is getting tired of seeing keyboards all around the house/office.   But I just had to try the Re^lforce.  I think she's probably relieved that I don't love it death and want to purchase 4 more??

skc

[itlnstln]

Yeah, I keep my love of keyboards away from my personal life.  Most people just don't understand it; therefore, I don't try to explain it, nor do I try to convert people.  If they are curious and ask, I'll tell them about it, but I don't go out of my way for it.

[bionicroach]

Yeah, I keep my love of keyboards away from my personal life.  Most people just don't understand it

Agreed -- keeping keyboard pr0n to yourself is definitely the wisest choice as most "normal" folks will just think you're nuts and want to argue or criticize.  However, I'm equally confused by the number of computer professionals who don't seem to care about the quality of the equipment they interact with all day, every day.  Part of it is surely the fact that most employers aren't willing to buy anything that's not on the weekly specials flyer from Staples, and a lot of people probably feel awkward about bringing in their own gear from home (which is what I do).  I don't really see it as any different than bringing in other personal items such as desk tchotchkes, family photos, or posters / artwork for the walls.  If you spend a huge chunk of your life stuck at the office, you might as well be comfortable while you're there.

[skcheng]

Agreed -- keeping keyboard pr0n to yourself is definitely the wisest choice as most "normal" folks will just think you're nuts and want to argue or criticize.  However, I'm equally confused by the number of computer professionals who don't seem to care about the quality of the equipment they interact with all day, every day.  Part of it is surely the fact that most employers aren't willing to buy anything that's not on the weekly specials flyer from Staples, and a lot of people probably feel awkward about bringing in their own gear from home (which is what I do).  I don't really see it as any different than bringing in other personal items such as desk tchotchkes, family photos, or posters / artwork for the walls.  If you spend a huge chunk of your life stuck at the office, you might as well be comfortable while you're there.

[/COLOR][/I]

Yes.....totally agree.   That's why I have wall to wall HDTVs in my office.  And up front, I have a VPI TNT with an EAR tube phono preamp.   Ceiling speakers unfortunately, but I didn't have room for a pair of Martin Logan CLS's  LOL.  

And life is totally too short to pound away on mediocre input devices  

[itlnstln]

I will say this, though.  Of all the modern keyboards available on the market (Filco, Das, Cherry, etc.).  The Realforce and HHKB have the best build quality on the market.  Other than the switches, I have been thoroughly impressed by the quality of the HHKB.

[itlnstln]

Well done.

The HHKB logo looks better on the 'board itself, but it's still a little weird-looking.  About the logo I particularly like on a keyboard is the Filco one.  Cherry's looks outdated, Unicomp is horrendous and Realforce is OK.  IBM is epic, though.

[test157]

black on black HHKB logo looks very cool, it almost invisible.

[itlnstln]

black on black HHKB logo looks very cool, it almost invisible.

I have one for sale in the classifieds.  It comes with a carrying case.

[itlnstln]

I was going to post that it was too expensive in that thread but you might get mad and unfriend me.

You should be in sales.  Persistent.

Ur a dik.

As always, it's negotiable.  Xs' sale kinda jacked it up for me.

[itlnstln]

Report button?  Is there a moderator on this site?

[ch_123]

How long till this guy figures that he really loves Topres.

Come on, it's inevitable...

[itlnstln]

When his wife yells at him saying that his Model Ms are too loud.

[Rajagra]

Here is how to do a logo:



It's simple. Direct. To the point. With a hint of stylishness.

In short: It's manly.

We need more manly logos. Especially on manly buckling spring keyboards.

[ch_123]

Manly logo on a buckling spring keyboard?



Doesn't get manlier than Wang!

[itlnstln]

I love that, Ch.

The logo, that is, not wang.

[skcheng]

A contrasting opinion on the Re^lforce 87U here:

Topre Realforce 87U Keyboard

[itlnstln]

The writer, is a member here (salcan).  Good write up.

[wellington1869]

Sex with the Topre???   I don't think so??   I'm kicking her and her board chow OUT!!  

skc

lol! just saw this review. no worries, i went back to my model M within 2 weeks, too

[itlnstln]

I'm still banging away at mine.  I can't get over the layout.

[skcheng]

The writer, is a member here (salcan).  Good write up.

Yup.  REALLY nice guy!!  Doesn't want to self promote in anyway, so I figured I'd do it for him.

[skcheng]

I don't exactly believe in the whole "hard to justify price" thing.

I treat keyboards like monitors.  I know I'll have them for several PC generations so I want a good one. Unlike video cards which are obsolete in one year.

Plus the reviewer LIKED the DIP switches.  What a Geek!

Show Image

Hello.....it is GEEK.COM!!

[iMav]

Personally, I've never understood the appeal of the Realforce 'boards.  To me, the best available keyboard is the HHKB Pro 2.  This is, primarily, due to the layout.  The key feel is nice, but it doesn't compare, IMHO, to either the blue or brown Cherry keyswitches.  (in HHKB Pro's case, the key feel is "good enough" and the layout is perfect...which is why this keyboard wins top spot with me)

If I want to type on a "standard" US layout keyboard, I'll take a Filco with Cherrys any day (or a buckling spring 'board).

[itlnstln]

Personally, I've never understood the appeal of the Realforce 'boards.  To me, the best available keyboard is the HHKB Pro 2.  This is, primarily, due to the layout.  The key feel is nice, but it doesn't compare, IMHO, to either the blue or brown Cherry keyswitches.  (in HHKB Pro's case, the key feel is "good enough" and the layout is perfect...which is why this keyboard wins top spot with me)

If I want to type on a "standard" US layout keyboard, I'll take a Filco with Cherrys any day (or a buckling spring 'board).

I love you, iMav.*  This is exactly how I feel about the Realforce.



*In a manly way, of course.

[didjamatic]

I don't want to adjust to a different layout that will mess with me whenever I go to a standard keyboard.  That's also why I stay with straight boards rather than split/ergonomic models.

With what I do for a living, the HHKB layout doesn't offer me any advantages.  I use the delete key and dedicated arrow keys constantly.  Having to add a modifier into the mix every time I use those functions would be frustrating and impede my skills.

[didjamatic]

You know what would be cool for a next gen realforce is to have some toggle buttons with LED's rather than dip switches.  That way you could enable and disable settings on the fly with a modifier + an F key or something that would then have an LED lit if it is enabled.  You'd want it to save the config to flash.  Also currently changing the Dip switches requires unplugging and replugging USB currently, they should change that.

[itlnstln]

If you had an HHKB, you could just unplug and replug from the keyboard itself.  I find this very useful when I want to clean it.

[itlnstln]

My Windows key is on the right side. There's a DIP switch for that.  I didn't have to use my left hand at all.

-Right pinky on Fn
-Right ring finger on Shift
-Right thumb on diamond
-Right middle finger on semicolon.

[itlnstln]

I took your advice; I am not selling it anymore.  I think since **** Stallman "blesses" the HHKB, or whatever, there is some sort of perception that it's only for programming or something.  I find it very efficient for all keyboarding tasks.  I swapped back to a regular keyboard for awhile, but I missed everything being available right off the home row.

[test157]

never use Right pinky on Fn seems I'am alone so

[salcan]

I don't want to adjust to a different layout that will mess with me whenever I go to a standard keyboard.  That's also why I stay with straight boards rather than split/ergonomic models.

With what I do for a living, the HHKB layout doesn't offer me any advantages.  I use the delete key and dedicated arrow keys constantly.  Having to add a modifier into the mix every time I use those functions would be frustrating and impede my skills.

Pretty much the same thing here. I love the idea of the HHKB and the size is amazing, but I have to use enough standard keyboards (and laptops) that getting too use to the HHKB layout would be an issue. I'm envious of all you guys that have mastered it though.

sk- Thanks for the link

[Rajagra]

My Windows key is on the right side. There's a DIP switch for that.  I didn't have to use my left hand at all.

-Right pinky on Fn
-Right ring finger on Shift
-Right thumb on diamond
-Right middle finger on semicolon.

That works for me. Despite being in Mac mode. I'm confused. They must have made up the bit about the stop key.

[maetl]

As the owner of a Unix Beard, I don't like the HHKB layout much either. There is not enough room for Control, Alt, Super, Hyper, Compose, AltGr, Tab, and Caps Lock – all keys that I remap – to fit comfortably. I am also not too happy with the positioning of the Function key.

[itlnstln]

Lots of empty space in the HHKB corners.  No need to.  They certainly filled it up in the Japanese HHKB.  They don't like us.

That might be one thing I would change.  I prefer the Ctrl key in the bottom left instead of the Caps Lock location.  I've gotten used to it, but it's not my preferred location.  That, and CAD requires two hands.  Granted, I only use it once a day to log in.  Just sayin'.

[ch_123]

Could do with a second Fn on the left hand side.

[itlnstln]

I think that's DIP switch 4.  My left diamond is another Fn.

[didjamatic]

Could do with a second Fn on the left hand side.

Just get a Realforce 76u.  The production version will have a Fn key on each side of the spacebar.  Oh wait, it wasn't real.

[ricercar]

I wonder what a membrane switch feels like!

Show Image

Wait--is that pictured Dell a mechanical? I used to have one of those next to my Kinesis at work for volume control and ALT+ keypad use.

[skcheng]

What was this thread about again???   :doh:

[skcheng]

The OP said he wasn't going to get a Realforce 87U.

Not much to say after that really.

Actually the OP purchased a Re^lforce 87U.  But he doesn't really know what to do with it now??

[skcheng]

Give it to me!

Lets trade!  Actually, you already have one that you barely use.

[didjamatic]

[itlnstln]

Wow, you had a pretty, blue sky outside that day, huh?

[itlnstln]

Mine is the same way.  I have no perceptible wear on any of the letter keys, but the spacebar is getting shiny right on the edge.

[itlnstln]

I'm ****ing pissed.  I want my money back.