Once you go 60% do you ever go back?

[KeypressGraphics]

Greetings Keyboardians.

After years of subsisting on rubber dome Logitech & Razer products I finally discovered Geekhack in 2009 and purchased a Choc Mini which has served me faithfully ever since. However keyboardtitis has struck so last week I realized a long-held ambition to own a HHKB by placing an order which I'm eagerly awaiting.

What I find interesting is that after owning the Mini for years the idea of ever going back to a full-size keyboard is now unthinkable. I was even swayed from purchasing a Realforce 87U rather than the HHKB -being determined to see what the fuss over Topre switches is all about- largely due to the tenkeyless footprint being significantly bigger than the Mini.
My desk isn't even particularly cramped, in fact its probably larger than most. However there's something particularly satisfying about smaller keyboards which made me feel like gravitating towards one of their larger brethren would've been a backwards step, Topre switches or no.

There must be some sort of physiological explanation for this phenomenon, and its not because I've grown accustomed to wrapping my hands around small objects! 

[clacktalk]

no. the hhkb layout is the one true layout. welcome to the celebration

[KeypressGraphics]

no. the hhkb layout is the one true layout. welcome to the celebration

Thanks clacktalk!

It scares me that so many Geekhackers talk about the HHKB as if it's a religion but that's one reason why I took the plunge. Would it enjoy the same cult-status if it was a full-layout board? I wonder.

[feizor]

I switch between 60%, tkl and full size. But once I try 1800 I might use that instead of full size.

[sypl]

You should ask the same about 40%. I can switch between them, but I don't think I'd ever want to.

[rowdy]

I have an HHKB, a collection of TKLs, one or two full sized boards (Ducky and CM) and a couple of full size Model M.

I alternate between them.

The fullsized Model M take up too much space on my desk (hence the acquisition of an SSK or two).

But I have found that I can live without the numpad.  On a Mac I can live without dedicated arrow keys, but I found they are a must on Windows.

[spiceBar]

I find it difficult to stay on 60%.

I have been a strong advocate of 60%, but with much more experience now I think I was wrong.

I have really tried to keep the 60% form factor, even designing special layouts to deal with them (SpaceFN and GuiFN), writing code to implement these layouts (in Karabiner and TMK firmware) and ordering matching keycaps from WASD.com
SpaceFN:
  https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51069.0
GuiFN:
  https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57723.0

After months and months of use, my opinion is that the 60% form factor (Poker, HHKB, ...) may be suitable for some, but it cannot be recommended in general.

The deal breaker is the lack of arrows. I know it sound obvious, and I'm already hearing the objections.

Naturally on a 60% you have the arrows, but they are on a second layer: you press an "Fn" key and some other key in order to get an arrow or any navigation function. You end up spending all your time pressing on the Fn key.

The problem, and many people don't realize it, is that the arrows are among the most used keys on a keyboard.

I didn't realize myself how much used they are, but I have since installed a keyboard stats utility on my main computer, and the numbers are telling:

When I press a key:
- I use space 10.9% of the time (it's the most used single key)
- I use "E" (the most used letter in many languages) 5.8% of the time
- I use an arrow 22.4% of the time!!!

It should be obvious that it is a serious ergonomic handicap to not have direct access to the arrows.

For this reason, I have now stopped investing in 60% keyboards, and I limit myself to keyboards that are as close as possible to the 60% form factor, but which still have arrow keys.

For example:
- The FC660C or FC660M
- The Matias Laptop Pro (which also has the advantage of being Bluetooth)

[Sencha]

No I can't go back the minimalist in me won't let me....plus its great for low sensitivity FPS games.

[heedpantsnow]

Hmmm I can't go back either. Love my Pokers!

[Demesnenyx]

One of the reasons why I wanted to switch out was just to have dedicated arrow keys again. If it were not for that, I would have never changed from my Pokers. How do you guys feel about the arrow clusters on other boards? (since their positioning is different from the Pokers.)

Does it feel better/make it easier to use?

[KH]

I think I can't use TKL or bigger KB anymore. 60% FTW

[Ludovician]

In all honesty I prefer my TKL. Both took a little adjustment as I used to use the numpad for * and +. I now use shift+numbers for those without too much trouble, so the utility of the numpad is pretty much gone for me. However I use arrows/home/end all the time while writing any sort of code or even just text. I don't mind using the arrows on the HHKB, but home/end on it is a pain.

Not like I need to use a smaller board anyway. With the way my desk is set up, keyboard size doesn't matter at all.

[strict]

Yep, tried out a friends Poker 2 for an afternoon and absolutely hated it. I hate Fn layers and I loathe not having dedicated arrow keys. I had the same problem with my JD40, I just couldn't adjust to using Fn layers.

I would love to try a HHKB purely to see what case mounted Topre feels like but I sincerely believe I would dislike the board overall because of the form factor.

[heedpantsnow]

When I will be using arrow keys a lot, I just enable the arrow lock on my Poker that turns bottom right keys into arrows. Like doc editing, spreadsheets, etc.

Do the other 60% boards not have this feature, or do people just not like to use it?

[dante]

I'm 60% - 95% of the time.  The other 5% is when I swap in a 75% for games where dedicated function keys make a huge difference.

[plegnic]

You end up spending all your time pressing on the Fn key.
...
- I use an arrow 22.4% of the time!!!

What are you doing that you are using arrow keys so much?

[mason]

After I tried the Poker II I couldn't go back to full size. I don't use arrows that often but sometimes I do miss having dedicated buttons for them.

[azhdar]

You end up spending all your time pressing on the Fn key.
...
- I use an arrow 22.4% of the time!!!

What are you doing that you are using arrow keys so much?

coding I guess.

I had the same problem with the pokerII, the Fn and WASD position isn't that great, and it was annoying.
Now with a custom where i put it in a better position and 60% layout just feel so much better.
I'm moving toward a 75% build though, to test if it fits me better.

[plegnic]

You end up spending all your time pressing on the Fn key.
...
- I use an arrow 22.4% of the time!!!

What are you doing that you are using arrow keys so much?

coding I guess.

I had the same problem with the pokerII, the Fn and WASD position isn't that great, and it was annoying.
Now with a custom where i put it in a better position and 60% layout just feel so much better.
I'm moving toward a 75% build though, to test if it fits me better.

Ah, see I code a lot, but I try to get everything to act like VIM so I don't have to move my hands as much. Pretty much everything in VIM can be handled by a 60% without touching the fn layer (since it was pretty much designed for a 60% interface).

Personally, I really like the arrow keys on my Poker II with the caps lock as the fn key (since I rarely use caps lock anyway), but I get that it's also a preference thing.

[SpAmRaY]

I've never been able to go 60%…I almost went tkl once.

[hwood34]

I used 60% for a while. I switched back to TKLs because I like having arrow keys and I prefer the look

[inanis]

I use a 60% nearly all the time, most of that time is on  Poker II, which I love more than most things in life.  The only exception is my SSK at home which I use with my desktop. I don't think there is any way I could go back to full size at this point. And I use the arrow keys heavily. I moved the FN key to the caps lock position and never looked back. When I'm at home on the SSK, I hit capslock + wasd constantly for arrows out of habit.

[spiceBar]

You end up spending all your time pressing on the Fn key.
...
- I use an arrow 22.4% of the time!!!

What are you doing that you are using arrow keys so much?

I code, except that in the period the stats took place I wasn't coding that much. Even when you just answer emails, read, or work on graphics, you use the arrows all the time (or you move your hand to reach the mouse, which is such a waste of time and energy).

I understand the stats would look different for other people, but how much different?

I read that you are using VIM, so you can get away with it somehow, but if you use enough different programs daily you will have to use the arrows. You could remap everything to use HJKL, but it's not always possible, and what a pain. Most people are not going to do it.

I would recommend to someone would is considering the switch to a 60% board to install a keyboard stats program and to look at the stats after one month. The decision is easier then. I have been stupid for not doing it myself a long time ago.

[CPTBadAss]

To me, going 60% exclusively is like saying I'm only going to eat strawberry ice cream from now on. Why would I want to limit my ice cream options when there is so much out there?

Right now at work, I'm typing on a Leeku Dolch PAC which is a custom 1800 in a Dolch Pac Case. So 1800 layout. At home I'm using a 60% Model F aka 6019284 aka Kishsaver. But I was using my SSK and KMAC for weeks beforehand. Variety is fun .

[inanis]

To me, going 60% exclusively is like saying I'm only going to eat strawberry ice cream from now on. Why would I want to limit my ice cream options when there is so much out there?

Right now at work, I'm typing on a Leeku Dolch PAC which is a custom 1800 in a Dolch Pac Case. So 1800 layout. At home I'm using a 60% Model F aka 6019284 aka Kishsaver. But I was using my SSK and KMAC for weeks beforehand. Variety is fun .

I'm always willing to try new things - just a few weeks ago I bought a full size board (Noppoo EC108), but I'm likely to stick with what I find comfortable. And for me, a smaller board is more comfortable. It is kind of like coming back to a favorite pair of jeans after going black tie for a fancy party.

[plegnic]

You end up spending all your time pressing on the Fn key.
...
- I use an arrow 22.4% of the time!!!

What are you doing that you are using arrow keys so much?

I code, except that in the period the stats took place I wasn't coding that much. Even when you just answer emails, read, or work on graphics, you use the arrows all the time (or you move your hand to reach the mouse, which is such a waste of time and energy).

I understand the stats would look different for other people, but how much different?

I read that you are using VIM, so you can go away with it somehow, but if you use enough different programs daily you will have to use the arrows. You could remap everything to use HJKL, but it's not always possible, and what a pain. Most people are not going to do it.

I would recommend to someone would is considering the switch to a 60% board to install a keyboard stats program and to look at the stats after one month. The decision is easier then. I have been stupid for not doing it myself a long time ago.

Yeah I do use arrow keys a lot. Definitely not 1/4 of my keypresses though, but everyone works differently. Biggest thing is probably that I am very comfortable with the layout on the Poker II. The Quickfire TK though drives me nuts having to switch numlock on and off to get to the arrows.

[spiceBar]

You end up spending all your time pressing on the Fn key.
...
- I use an arrow 22.4% of the time!!!

What are you doing that you are using arrow keys so much?

I code, except that in the period the stats took place I wasn't coding that much. Even when you just answer emails, read, or work on graphics, you use the arrows all the time (or you move your hand to reach the mouse, which is such a waste of time and energy).

I understand the stats would look different for other people, but how much different?

I read that you are using VIM, so you can go away with it somehow, but if you use enough different programs daily you will have to use the arrows. You could remap everything to use HJKL, but it's not always possible, and what a pain. Most people are not going to do it.

I would recommend to someone would is considering the switch to a 60% board to install a keyboard stats program and to look at the stats after one month. The decision is easier then. I have been stupid for not doing it myself a long time ago.

Yeah I do use arrow keys a lot. Definitely not 1/4 of my keypresses though, but everyone works differently. Biggest thing is probably that I am very comfortable with the layout on the Poker II. The Quickfire TK though drives me nuts having to switch numlock on and off to get to the arrows.

I, too, thought that I could not possibly use the arrows that often.

Then I looked at the stats and... WTF!?

[nubbinator]

Here's my take:

• G80-1800 layout is nearly perfect for work.  It's more compact (aside from the extraneous function row keys) and retains the num pad and arrows should your software require them.  It just needs to be a little shorted and it's perfect.
• 60% is perfect for day to day use.  I exclusively use my HHKB (perfect layout) for my home computing.
• TKL or Poker or Pure layout boards are sometimes needed for games.  As much as I wish I could exclusively use my HHKB, sometimes you need a TKL keyboard to properly and comfortably play a game, even if you remapped all the keybindings.
• Full size keyboards are a waste of space, anti-ergonomic, and pointless.  The design needs to die already.

[derb2k2]

for me, it's hard to go back to anything larger than 60%, especially now that I use HHKB.  Excluding my growing love for Topre, the portability factor is huge for me since I am somewhat mobile. Also, not having to move my arm so much when reaching for the mouse is definitely an added bonus. Even in TKL boards the latter is somewhat of a nuisance for me, but with 60%, it's almost fluid and not bothersome. In particular though, the HHKB is a beast of a keyboard and I honestly hate typing on anything else.

[qwack]

After months and months of use, my opinion is that the 60% form factor (Poker, HHKB, ...) may be suitable for some, but it cannot be recommended in general.

The deal breaker is the lack of arrows.

Pure Pro.

I know it does not get much love around here because of the non-standard layout (and I agree it is not perfect) but I have been using one for nearly a year and I never felt I needed something bigger.

But I somewhat agree with you — if you're going for something less "standard" than a Poker, why not go the 65% route. Standard keycap sizes (well, almost), dedicated arrow keys and not much bigger than a true 60%.

[spiceBar]

After months and months of use, my opinion is that the 60% form factor (Poker, HHKB, ...) may be suitable for some, but it cannot be recommended in general.

The deal breaker is the lack of arrows.

Pure Pro.

I know it does not get much love around here because of the non-standard layout (and I agree it is not perfect) but I have been using one for nearly a year and I never felt I needed something bigger.

But I somewhat agree with you — if you're going for something less "standard" than a Poker, why not go the 65% route. Standard keycap sizes (well, almost), dedicated arrow keys and not much bigger than a true 60%.

I have two Pure Pro.

Originally I thought it was it. However it is nonstandard enough that it is annoying. For example, the right Shift is a joke, and I use the right Shift enough often that it bothers me a lot. But there are other issues.

I realized the layout was a burden when I switched back to using a TKL for a while. The TKL felt so easier to use, that I knew the Pure Pro had to go.

[saturnotaku]

Since I play games at home, a TKL is a must for me. I tried gaming on a HHKB, but I need the function layer. At work, I switch back and forth between my HHKB Type-S and WASD v2 TKL. Having the dedicated arrow and Pg Up/Pg Down, Home/End keys really comes in handy sometimes, but it's not a deal breaker. The feel of the switches is what has me sticking with the Type-S.

[njbair]

I am a full size fan, but mostly because of the number pad, not the arrow keys. If you use keyed navigation a lot, a separate bank of arrow keys is patently un-ergonomic. You have to move your whole arm. Vim keybindings or a function layer are more ergonomic because your hands remain in the home position.

Your can debate about the location of the function layer trigger key, but generally it's closer and easier to get to than a bank of keys way off to the side.

[sypl]

I've banged this drum before, and I'll bang it again. Arrow clusters are just as bad as excessive mouse use. You're still having to move your right hand way off the home position and spend a split second to locate the arrows. Given their importance and usage rates they should be immediately available and easy to get to.

Whenever I'm on any computer I'm using Karabiner or autohotkey to remap the key immediately right of the space bar + hjkl for arrow keys. I will never, ever go back to an arrow cluster. I simply don't see how it could get easier in terms of access. I have to move my thumb about 1.5cm to get to the modifier and my fingers are already on jkl;

Kill the arrow cluster people! You need dedicated arrow keys as much as you need a dedicated caps lock.   

[katushkin]

I go back and forth. I liked my 60% when I first bought it, but then I moved up to a TKL, then to full size, but I think I might move back to my 60% until my next full size arrives

[TopreFan333]

What are you doing that you are using arrow keys so much?

I use them a lot as well, just for writing. I'm in the habit, on a Mac, of keeping my hands on the keyboard by using [option] + arrow keys to jump forward or back a word at a time, and adding [shift] to that to also select. It's pretty much unconscious muscle memory at this point to edit a sentence as I'm composing it, jumping back to change a word just using those key commands. It's much, much faster than using the mouse. 

I've banged this drum before, and I'll bang it again. Arrow clusters are just as bad as excessive mouse use. You're still having to move your right hand way off the home position and spend a split second to locate the arrows. Given their importance and usage rates they should be immediately available and easy to get to.

It should be easier, I agree, to use that FN layer and keys that are closer to the home row. I switched to the HHKB at home but it's still not really integrated into my muscle memory the way the further-away (but isolated and unambiguous) arrow keys are. I think it would be better if I used it all day -- but at work and on my laptop I'm still on a plain old Mac keyboard.

[behappy]

Went with HHKB and haven't looked back! Considering picking up a Realforce 87U for comparison but I'm very happy with my HHKB and would consider using other 60%, I rarely ever use arrow keys and even when I do I have learned how to use them quickly and with ease; granted not as easily as if they had their own buttons but this sacrifice is worth it in my eyes.

In the end, like anything else similar to this, it all comes down to personal preference and weighing what you need with what you don't. Good luck! 

[Sygaldry]

I have difficulty using dedicated arrow keys after getting used to the HHKB arrow cluster...

It's so much more work moving my hand off home row to use dedicated arrows than to use the fn+ [;'/ cluster on the HHKB.

[sethk_]

I have difficulty using dedicated arrow keys after getting used to the HHKB arrow cluster...

It's so much more work moving my hand off home row to use dedicated arrows than to use the fn+ [;'/ cluster on the HHKB.

Just using my RF now it is kind of weird, but I like dedicated arrow keys more, just more practical, and I also got used to Page Up and Page down, so I am starting to feel like that a 65 or 75% is more for me, because I like the compactness.

[Sygaldry]

I have difficulty using dedicated arrow keys after getting used to the HHKB arrow cluster...

It's so much more work moving my hand off home row to use dedicated arrows than to use the fn+ [;'/ cluster on the HHKB.

Just using my RF now it is kind of weird, but I like dedicated arrow keys more, just more practical, and I also got used to Page Up and Page down, so I am starting to feel like that a 65 or 75% is more for me, because I like the compactness.

Using my RF right now - I make sure to use it at least once a week to justify spending so much money on it (something like 450 dollars). The dedicated arrows feel so unnatural though... 

[sethk_]

I have difficulty using dedicated arrow keys after getting used to the HHKB arrow cluster...

It's so much more work moving my hand off home row to use dedicated arrows than to use the fn+ [;'/ cluster on the HHKB.

Just using my RF now it is kind of weird, but I like dedicated arrow keys more, just more practical, and I also got used to Page Up and Page down, so I am starting to feel like that a 65 or 75% is more for me, because I like the compactness.

Using my RF right now - I make sure to use it at least once a week to justify spending so much money on it (something like 450 dollars). The dedicated arrows feel so unnatural though... 

Yeah, its my main board until the cable for my Dolch board comes, and then I will see how it goes. I will probably use the dolch for gaming, and when I a cherry experience, or when I want to look at a pretty board.

[qwack]

I have two Pure Pro.

Originally I thought it was it. However it is nonstandard enough that it is annoying. For example, the right Shift is a joke, and I use the right Shift enough often that it bothers me a lot. But there are other issues.

I realized the layout was a burden when I switched back to using a TKL for a while. The TKL felt so easier to use, that I knew the Pure Pro had to go.

Yes, the adaptation curve is steep, but I got accustomed to the small Shift keys quite fast anyway, and a TKL would have been too big for me. I agree that the Pure Pro is not for everyone, but (to answer the question of this thread) it gives me everything I need without significant drawbacks (I can live with the stock keycaps) so I don't feel I need to get a TKL or bigger.

[drewba]

I have a 50/50 split between 60% & TKL. For me, a more accurate thread title would be Once you go 60% & TKL, you never go back to full size. I purchased a couple dedicated numpads because I actually use the numpad but a full size takes up way too much desk space.

[Lain1911]

Sometimes TLK or 75% is still relevant.

[pichu23]

60% & TKL's.
Nothing bigger, nothing smaller.

[spiceBar]

I've banged this drum before, and I'll bang it again. Arrow clusters are just as bad as excessive mouse use. You're still having to move your right hand way off the home position and spend a split second to locate the arrows. Given their importance and usage rates they should be immediately available and easy to get to.

Whenever I'm on any computer I'm using Karabiner or autohotkey to remap the key immediately right of the space bar + hjkl for arrow keys. I will never, ever go back to an arrow cluster. I simply don't see how it could get easier in terms of access. I have to move my thumb about 1.5cm to get to the modifier and my fingers are already on jkl;

Kill the arrow cluster people! You need dedicated arrow keys as much as you need a dedicated caps lock.

Immediately available when you do what?

If I don't have my hands in position to TYPE, then it is a waste of energy to press an additional key to get the arrows.

And it happens a lot that I have to use the arrows when I am not typing. I'm in front of my computer for hours a day, and most of the time I'm not with my two hands on the home row, ready to type. Most of the time, I just have one hand on the navigation cluster, and that's all. It would be more tiring to keep my hand on the home row, and I know this firsthand as I have been using SpaceFN and GuiFN for months.

Maybe the best would be to have both the arrow cluster AND the arrows on the home row.

In this case you still need a dedicated arrow cluster. I know I need it.

[ideus]

According with the OP explanation, this is another HHKB thread, disguised as a 60%-keyboard's-preference one.

[jason26]

I haven't used a full size in 15 some years (most of that time on laptops or a Kinesis advantage and some TKLs). Having recently tried my first 60% - a Ducky mini, I don't think it's for me. I like the location of the arrow cluster and page keys on a TKL - but I do like how close my trackball is on a 60%. I think I'll be trying a 75% next.

[TopreFan333]

According with the OP explanation, this is another HHKB thread, disguised as a 60%-keyboard's-preference one.

Give it a rest.

[calvinhousecat]

Love my v60! So simple and I love the way I arranged my dip switches for the perfect FN layer

For ex: I don't need the arrow keys because I can comfortably use my left ring finger to hit CAPSLOCK for the FN button + WADS. I don't have to shift my red hand down to hit the normal arrow clusters on a regular keyboard