[GB] Fox Lab - Leaf 65% | Closed

[Lizcuits]

I think the product looks fantastic, otherwise I would not be willing to jump through these hoops and spend the kind of money required for something like this, but this experience has soured me quite a bit. If you are selling a premium niche product that starts at $415 the least you can do is invest in some decent order-form UI/UX or acknowledge that some percentage of your customers are going to have difficulty with the ordering process and act accordingly. To just crap out an incomprehensible order-form, acknowledge that said order-form is confusing, and then tell people you're going to ignore them if they have any type of problem after spending hundreds of dollars is a pretty bad way to treat customers.

I feel contrary to the other posters above and think the information on this page and the site page all explain everything clearly enough for me to understand what each option means. If this was your first custom then maybe I could understand certain things are confusing but the fact that all options are on ONE product instead of adding separate products to the cart makes it very simple. The colors are mostly self explanatory and the images on the product page and site / examples show a good range of possibilities. It's missing a picture view of the layout options but explains things enough for me to know that the layout I want is supported. I think it'll be hard to handhold the lowest common denominator in this case but Senter's done a decent job at it.

As an aside, I think elitist attitudes like this are pretty cancerous to the community and anybody looking to join it. If the entire thread is full of basic questions that are not answered in the product page and not comments about the product itself, that's probably a sign that something is wrong. It's cool that you were able to navigate ordering the item without issues, but the vast majority of people here were not, and acting like we're the "lowest common denominator" when trying to get basic information before dropping half a grand or more on a keyboard is insulting and discourages people from asking questions and trying to learn more about the hobby.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Sorry you had such a negative introduction to the hobby. I'm still fingers crossed that they update the site to be more user friendly and just restart group buy, or at the very least allow changes to orders. I already know several people personally who misunderstood the order process and as such made a mistake -- and that's only people who actually realized they made a mistake because they looked into it more already. I can imagine many more people made similar mistakes and simply haven't realized it yet.

The GB runner shadow-updating the product page (so they clearly read these concerns we all brought up) but not addressing it directly is also a little worrying. Hopefully we hear from them soon.

I want this GB to be a success because the board is genuinely gorgeous and I want to see more work like this from Fox Labs... just not done this way. This GB is shady at best so far, which is a real shame.

[senter]

It's currently impossible to be certain of what color is which, there's very little information for what you're actually getting (as you can see by almost every comment on this thread so far), and finding proto pictures (that should be on this page and the product page) is split across looking at the zfrontier page (not linked here) and the IC thread (also not linked here).

There is no clear photograph or render of the front of the keyboard on the GB thread or the Product page. The only one is from a low angle and it doesn't show the badge (no info on the badge whatsoever in that case without digging through other sources).

There is no information on the layout of the PCB, for either the solderable layout or the hotswap layout.

The prototype photo is in both this thread and the GB page. It's a 6000*6000 picture. The picture with 8 boards is not a render. All the colors should pretty easy to identify on that picture.

All the other information has been added to both this thread and the GB page.

[Lizcuits]

The prototype photo is in both this thread and the GB page. It's a 6000*6000 picture. The picture with 8 boards is not a render. All the colors should pretty easy to identify on that picture.

All the other information has been added to both this thread and the GB page.

Yeah uh, it wasn't as easy to identify before when it was only one photo of the backs of a few keyboards that didn't have the color labels on them. And I think we all know that's not what people mean when they ask for prototype photos.

Thanks for updating it though, I guess

[senter]

The products provided to streamers are not the same as what you get by default, which is confusing to some.

The skeleton plate was designed after I sent the prototypes to the streamers. I asked opinions in the IC thread and most people are interested. There was a discussion in the IC thread.
Making the skeleton plate as the default plate is an upgrade. The price was determined when the Chinese GB was started and the plate version wasn't changed.

[senter]

edit: I also just noticed all of the examples of the polycarb builds are built without a PCB so the underside appearance is misrepresented. I have no idea why this was done this way, unless the PC just looks really bad with the PCB installed? These protos are also built with plates that aren't offered (it appears to be some sort of a sandblasted pink aluminum and brass plate? Not the "skeleton plate" that is unclearly offered as a default)

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I don't know what you mean is the pictures don't show up.

[Lizcuits]

edit: I also just noticed all of the examples of the polycarb builds are built without a PCB so the underside appearance is misrepresented. I have no idea why this was done this way, unless the PC just looks really bad with the PCB installed? These protos are also built with plates that aren't offered (it appears to be some sort of a sandblasted pink aluminum and brass plate? Not the "skeleton plate" that is unclearly offered as a default)

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I don't know what you mean is the pictures don't show up.

[senter]

All this on top of the "Don't even bother asking me to change your order, it will be ignored" is really just not a good look. Seriously consider fixing up your thead and website and letting everyone start over or offer the ability to change orders. This is one of the worst laid out group buys I've ever seen, which is kind of shocking coming from Fox Lab.


This board is gorgeous and people are going to love it, please don't ruin your group buy by making it vague and frustrating to navigate and then offering no support to remedy it.

I've been in this community for many years and I've run quite a lot group buys. I know exactly what could go wrong. If I didn't add that line, there will be hundreds of change request in my mailbox. Many people would request multiple times of color changes and other changes. That will make the group buy totally unmanageable that I cannot handle.

[senter]

Hello!  I just bought one of these. First GB and really first kit I’ll need to assemble. In preparation for this, does the hotswap PCB support screw in stabilizers or will I need to get some plate mounted ones?

Only PCB mount stabs are supported including the screw in ones.

[senter]

Plate mount stabs or PCB  mount stabs?

PCB

[Nef]

It's currently impossible to be certain of what color is which, there's very little information for what you're actually getting (as you can see by almost every comment on this thread so far), and finding proto pictures (that should be on this page and the product page) is split across looking at the zfrontier page (not linked here) and the IC thread (also not linked here).

There is no clear photograph or render of the front of the keyboard on the GB thread or the Product page. The only one is from a low angle and it doesn't show the badge (no info on the badge whatsoever in that case without digging through other sources).

There is no information on the layout of the PCB, for either the solderable layout or the hotswap layout.

The prototype photo is in both this thread and the GB page. It's a 6000*6000 picture. The picture with 8 boards is not a render. All the colors should pretty easy to identify on that picture.

All the other information has been added to both this thread and the GB page.

Is there a pic of the light green top/bottom piece?

[senter]

I feel contrary to the other posters above and think the information on this page and the site page all explain everything clearly enough for me to understand what each option means. If this was your first custom then maybe I could understand certain things are confusing but the fact that all options are on ONE product instead of adding separate products to the cart makes it very simple. The colors are mostly self explanatory and the images on the product page and site / examples show a good range of possibilities. It's missing a picture view of the layout options but explains things enough for me to know that the layout I want is supported. I think it'll be hard to handhold the lowest common denominator in this case but Senter's done a decent job at it.

Thank you for your kind words. I've been in the community for many years now and really feel this community is turning much less tolerant. I do understand that something I feel nature could be not that straightforward to some newcomers of this community, and I'm willing to improve, answer any questions here and through email. It makes me very upset when I get those harsh and demanding criticism that I don't think I deserve for what I've done: "You don't even have contact information on your website. You're arrogant and rude!" (I do have contact information here and the github page. The packing list includes my contact information and the build guide. ) "You didn't provide XXX information here. The GB is so bad!" (I do apologies for what I didn't post so far. )

[senter]

Where can I find renders of the case colors "Light Green Anodizing" and "Red Anodizing"? There should be pictures available for each customizable option (such as close ups for the front logo for each color) to make selections easier, especially if you're expecting people to "take your time and make the decisions carefully"?

Unfortunately, there's no render for the light green and red units. You can check the color in the first two pictures in this thread though. The colors shown in those two pictures are the most accurate ones.

[senter]

A little bit confused about the color.

The color of the beige in the Geekhack post and from the fox labs store is totally different.
Wondering which one is close to the real color.

The first one is more accurate as it's a real photo. The bottom one is a render.

[senter]

Made an account just to comment on this as I'm relatively new to the hobby and was very excited to see this product come up, only to be heavily discouraged by the many issues people have brought up in the thread already. I found the product page very confusing and as such realized that I made a mistake on my order after submitting it. I didn't realize how the middle plate would accent the overall look of the board until looking up a video of a streamer who received a board and as such realized I didn't choose the right color that I wanted. You can argue if you want that this is my fault for not researching it enough, but given the confusing information and lack of pictures on the product page I feel like this may be a common mistake. Despite the fact that the seller apparently doesn't want to provide the most basic customer support in regards to changing order specs, I e-mailed FoxLabs anyway requesting they do so, and if they were unwilling to, to cancel my order so I could resubmit a corrected version. I understood that they said they would charge a cancellation fee and that they would ignore any requests for order changes, but I figured I'd try anyway. They did indeed cancel my order and refunded all but $5, but gave no explanation as to why they refused to simply change a part of the order. I just resubmitted the corrected order a little while ago.

I think the product looks fantastic, otherwise I would not be willing to jump through these hoops and spend the kind of money required for something like this, but this experience has soured me quite a bit. If you are selling a premium niche product that starts at $415 the least you can do is invest in some decent order-form UI/UX or acknowledge that some percentage of your customers are going to have difficulty with the ordering process and act accordingly. To just crap out an incomprehensible order-form, acknowledge that said order-form is confusing, and then tell people you're going to ignore them if they have any type of problem after spending hundreds of dollars is a pretty bad way to treat customers.

I feel contrary to the other posters above and think the information on this page and the site page all explain everything clearly enough for me to understand what each option means. If this was your first custom then maybe I could understand certain things are confusing but the fact that all options are on ONE product instead of adding separate products to the cart makes it very simple. The colors are mostly self explanatory and the images on the product page and site / examples show a good range of possibilities. It's missing a picture view of the layout options but explains things enough for me to know that the layout I want is supported. I think it'll be hard to handhold the lowest common denominator in this case but Senter's done a decent job at it.

As an aside, I think elitist attitudes like this are pretty cancerous to the community and anybody looking to join it. If the entire thread is full of basic questions that are not answered in the product page and not comments about the product itself, that's probably a sign that something is wrong. It's cool that you were able to navigate ordering the item without issues, but the vast majority of people here were not, and acting like we're the "lowest common denominator" when trying to get basic information before dropping half a grand or more on a keyboard is insulting and discourages people from asking questions and trying to learn more about the hobby.

Thank you for your comments. I didn't revise your order because it's technically not possible to do so. Shopify(the store plate form) by its default setting doesn't support so many options on a single page. I'm using an plugin to enable infinite options. By using this plugin, I'm not able to modify detailed options in the backend.

[senter]

edit: I also just noticed all of the examples of the polycarb builds are built without a PCB so the underside appearance is misrepresented. I have no idea why this was done this way, unless the PC just looks really bad with the PCB installed? These protos are also built with plates that aren't offered (it appears to be some sort of a sandblasted pink aluminum and brass plate? Not the "skeleton plate" that is unclearly offered as a default)

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I don't know what you mean is the pictures don't show up.

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Oh, this is just because the photos were taken before the boards are assembled. We had only solder version PCBs at that time.

[srhdt]

I don't want to downplay other people's legitimate criticisms in this thread, but at the same time I do want to let senter know that I'm really excited for this GB. This will be my first GB keyboard and I think all the boards you've designed so far have looked amazing.

Although I didn't have any issues with my ordering process I definitely acknowledge that it could have been confusing for others. Hopefully everyone ends up with an order that makes them happy.

[ZongZiWang]

edit: I also just noticed all of the examples of the polycarb builds are built without a PCB so the underside appearance is misrepresented. I have no idea why this was done this way, unless the PC just looks really bad with the PCB installed? These protos are also built with plates that aren't offered (it appears to be some sort of a sandblasted pink aluminum and brass plate? Not the "skeleton plate" that is unclearly offered as a default)

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I don't know what you mean is the pictures don't show up.

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Oh, this is just because the photos were taken before the boards are assembled. We had only solder version PCBs at that time.

Is that possible to attach the solder pcb to the switches (even not soldering them) and put into polycarbonate case so we can see how it looks from bottom as how we would get when we build them.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

[tsolin01]

As an aside, I think elitist attitudes like this are pretty cancerous to the community and anybody looking to join it. If the entire thread is full of basic questions that are not answered in the product page and not comments about the product itself, that's probably a sign that something is wrong. It's cool that you were able to navigate ordering the item without issues, but the vast majority of people here were not, and acting like we're the "lowest common denominator" when trying to get basic information before dropping half a grand or more on a keyboard is insulting and discourages people from asking questions and trying to learn more about the hobby.

lol sorry if you feel personally attacked by this. I just feel like there's way too much pitchforking in here when the options aren't that difficult to figure out. Hope Senter doesn't get discouraged by this and this continues to be a successful group buy.

[shotaaoyi]

placed my order and i cant wait for the board! Do agree that some improvements can be made with this gb, but I do think the options were not that hard to figure out, especially after reading Senter's answers to some questions (could be nice to do a common FAQ at the top of the page so everyone also sees). Hopefully issues with this gb will be resolved and the groupbuy continues to be successful. 
Good luck with the rest of the  groupbuy!

[goateek]

The options are not too bad. My problem is that I wish there were some tools to let us render a board with different color combinations that are not common, it's hard to just use our imagination for those. It's great that we're allowed to choose color for each of the piece, but the lack of render/proto in the end nudges us towards the safe options.
Still going to order one though, good luck!

[neikels]

Hi Senter,
 do you have any pictures or renders of how the black anodizing middle frame would look like with the clear pc bottom case?

[Jacki]

Only 2 PCB's are allowed in 1 order.
am i allowed to make a second order if i want one more PCB?

[CookieFlow]

placed my order and i cant wait for the board! Do agree that some improvements can be made with this gb, but I do think the options were not that hard to figure out, especially after reading Senter's answers to some questions (could be nice to do a common FAQ at the top of the page so everyone also sees). Hopefully issues with this gb will be resolved and the groupbuy continues to be successful. 
Good luck with the rest of the  groupbuy!

I do believe that the GB is pretty clear now.
And some crucial information has been updated since.

But since there was a 500 boards limit, some people ordered very early before the new information was made available.
500 boards is a good number, but there have been GB's this size selling out in minutes so I (and others presumably) didn't want to risk waiting too long.
It is just a shame that orders cannot be edited at least manually for the people that ordered in the first minutes of the GB.

But I am still very excited for this GB, I just wish I didn't have 2 similar plates in my order. But hopefully there will be extras addons after the GB.

Senter please consider making a fair amount of extra badges, weights and maybe even different middles frames so we can customize our boards with different color combinations.

 

[srhdt]

placed my order and i cant wait for the board! Do agree that some improvements can be made with this gb, but I do think the options were not that hard to figure out, especially after reading Senter's answers to some questions (could be nice to do a common FAQ at the top of the page so everyone also sees). Hopefully issues with this gb will be resolved and the groupbuy continues to be successful. 
Good luck with the rest of the  groupbuy!

I do believe that the GB is pretty clear now.
And some crucial information has been updated since.

But since there was a 500 boards limit, some people ordered very early before the new information was made available.
500 boards is a good number, but there have been GB's this size selling out in minutes so I (and others presumably) didn't want to risk waiting too long.
It is just a shame that orders cannot be edited at least manually for the people that ordered in the first minutes of the GB.

But I am still very excited for this GB, I just wish I didn't have 2 similar plates in my order. But hopefully there will be extras addons after the GB.

Senter please consider making a fair amount of extra badges, weights and maybe even different middles frames so we can customize our boards with different color combinations.

 

I know it's not an ideal solution, but the GB is still live so if you made a mistake on your order, can't you just cancel and re-order? It sucks to have to lose a 2% fee to canceling, but it is an option.

[Brit]

I ordered my board right as the group buy started and before Senter posted this thread because I didn't want to risk not being able to get one as someone mentioned above. However, I always make sure I understand the information before I make a big purchase so I was able to do some research (in regard to youtuber build streams) and figured out how to order the right parts I wanted. The only thing I was unclear of when ordering was what the default plate was. I do think that the GB is more clear with this thread and the updated information in the store page, but that's subjective. Hopefully people who didn't order right away are able to do so without confusion now. The board looks beautiful and has everything I've wanted in a 65%. Good luck with the rest of the group buy 

[deedz]

I feel contrary to the other posters above and think the information on this page and the site page all explain everything clearly enough for me to understand what each option means. If this was your first custom then maybe I could understand certain things are confusing but the fact that all options are on ONE product instead of adding separate products to the cart makes it very simple. The colors are mostly self explanatory and the images on the product page and site / examples show a good range of possibilities. It's missing a picture view of the layout options but explains things enough for me to know that the layout I want is supported. I think it'll be hard to handhold the lowest common denominator in this case but Senter's done a decent job at it.

Thank you for your kind words. I've been in the community for many years now and really feel this community is turning much less tolerant. I do understand that something I feel nature could be not that straightforward to some newcomers of this community, and I'm willing to improve, answer any questions here and through email. It makes me very upset when I get those harsh and demanding criticism that I don't think I deserve for what I've done: "You don't even have contact information on your website. You're arrogant and rude!" (I do have contact information here and the github page. The packing list includes my contact information and the build guide. ) "You didn't provide XXX information here. The GB is so bad!" (I do apologies for what I didn't post so far. )

Thanks for taking the time to address things Senter!

Was wondering if you had any information on the total weight of the keyboard?

Was also curious what material the weight will be if we do not upgrade to PVD brass?

[elongatedmusk]

Hey, just wondering, what does "Soft Cap" mean?

The description says it's 500 units but my order is around 2000-ish and it's currently still open.

Not sure if the order number is randomly generated though.

[Altain]

Hey, just wondering, what does "Soft Cap" mean?

The description says it's 500 units but my order is around 2000-ish and it's currently still open.

Not sure if the order number is randomly generated though.

I believe the order number is not exactly equal to the number of units sold prior to one's purchase. I've bought a kit within 3~4 hours after the GB opened and my order number is already 1780.
There's less likely that 1500+ people have bought it within a few hours, I believe?

[Altain]

Awesome! Just ordered a kit. A quick question, how do I review the options for my purchase after the payment has been done?

When you get the confirmation email from Fox Lab you can click on View Your Order and it shows all your options on the top-right.

Thx for your help! Is Senter going to give out confirmation email after the GB is closed? Got the kit on Saturday, still no confirmation email.

[seys12]

Do you have a photo of how the top logo looks like on the PC top case? And how the bottom PC case looks like with a PCB?

[prangano]

man I wish I could change my color selection

[Curin Derwin]

What color is the PCB?

[senter]

I ordered my board right as the group buy started and before Senter posted this thread because I didn't want to risk not being able to get one as someone mentioned above. However, I always make sure I understand the information before I make a big purchase so I was able to do some research (in regard to youtuber build streams) and figured out how to order the right parts I wanted. The only thing I was unclear of when ordering was what the default plate was. I do think that the GB is more clear with this thread and the updated information in the store page, but that's subjective. Hopefully people who didn't order right away are able to do so without confusion now. The board looks beautiful and has everything I've wanted in a 65%. Good luck with the rest of the group buy 

If you've already placed an order and want to cancel it then place a new one, there's no reason I won't allow it. The 500 unit limit is a soft limit, I want make sure who wanted to get one can get one. I do plan to close the GB earlier than expected (within one or two days), but I secure your spot if you got one before GB is closed.

I will deduct a 2% fee though because that's what you (or me) have already paid to PayPal, not me. The 2.9% plus $0.30 transaction won't be returned even I issues the full refund. I charge around only 2% for any order cancel requests for simplicity.

[senter]

Do you have a photo of how the top logo looks like on the PC top case? And how the bottom PC case looks like with a PCB?

I didn't order a PC prototype with top right logo, but you can get an idea how it will look with Key65's photos:




The difference is that the Leaf65's badge has a larger block behind the front case, which you can see through the PC case, like what it looks on the weight:

[senter]

What color is the PCB?

White

[Deanington]

Didnt see an order cancel option in any of the emails. Does one contact you at the foxlab email if an order does need to be canceled?

[senter]

Didnt see an order cancel option in any of the emails. Does one contact you at the foxlab email if an order does need to be canceled?

Yes.

[srhdt]

Awesome! Just ordered a kit. A quick question, how do I review the options for my purchase after the payment has been done?

When you get the confirmation email from Fox Lab you can click on View Your Order and it shows all your options on the top-right.

Thx for your help! Is Senter going to give out confirmation email after the GB is closed? Got the kit on Saturday, still no confirmation email.

You should check your spam folder or email Senter and ask about it. I think the confirmation email is automated and I received mine like 1-2 minutes after making my order.

[Deanington]

Thanks Senter, love the design btw.

[mkljfox44]

I'm super excited for this. Senter has been very communicative and helpful throughout the ordering process. When I ran into an issue with my order, he promptly responded and helped me through it. I understand that people have some concerns with the information in the order page (or lack thereof), but instead of posting harsh comments, you should probably reach out to the GB host for help as they are more than willing to do so. Anyway, thanks for everything Senter.

[tsolin01]

Do you have a photo of how the top logo looks like on the PC top case? And how the bottom PC case looks like with a PCB?

I found a couple pics of the PC with what looks like the PVD Brass on zfrontier here:

https://www.zfrontier.com/app/flow/40bZ61jBwbLG

I put them up on imgur and attached them below:

https://imgur.com/a/eLD7AVM

[NixieTea]

Do you have a photo of how the top logo looks like on the PC top case? And how the bottom PC case looks like with a PCB?

I found a couple pics of the PC with what looks like the PVD Brass on zfrontier here:

https://www.zfrontier.com/app/flow/40bZ61jBwbLG

I put them up on imgur and attached them below:

https://imgur.com/a/eLD7AVM

(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)

Oof, I may have to join after all. Even though it's just a render, this color combo is amazing.

[abellp327]

Do you have a photo of how the top logo looks like on the PC top case? And how the bottom PC case looks like with a PCB?

I found a couple pics of the PC with what looks like the PVD Brass on zfrontier here:

https://www.zfrontier.com/app/flow/40bZ61jBwbLG

I put them up on imgur and attached them below:

https://imgur.com/a/eLD7AVM

(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)

Looks like silver? thought brass was gold like

[NixieTea]

Do you have a photo of how the top logo looks like on the PC top case? And how the bottom PC case looks like with a PCB?

I found a couple pics of the PC with what looks like the PVD Brass on zfrontier here:

https://www.zfrontier.com/app/flow/40bZ61jBwbLG

I put them up on imgur and attached them below:

https://imgur.com/a/eLD7AVM

(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)

Looks like silver? thought brass was gold like

The PVD is silver for this GB

[Domantas]

Is hotswap pcb per switch only or it also has underglow? (asking mainly because it can determine if I want pc bottom or alu)

[Ekko]

Hello, I was wondering what the silver anodizing would look like.  On the zfrontier renders I see dark greys so hopefully that's what you meant by silver anodizing but if not and it's actually silver I might go with a different color combo.  Thank you!

[srhdt]

Hello, I was wondering what the silver anodizing would look like.  On the zfrontier renders I see dark greys so hopefully that's what you meant by silver anodizing but if not and it's actually silver I might go with a different color combo.  Thank you!

The first picture of the first post in this thread has Silver clearly labeled.

[senter]

As the soft top limit has been reached, I'll close the GB tomorrow ( around 12 AM ET or 9 PM PST)

[Curin Derwin]

Is hotswap pcb per switch only or it also has underglow? (asking mainly because it can determine if I want pc bottom or alu)

I'd also love to know this.

[cdrom25]

Just want to ask a question. This is my first time joining a GB so I don't have any idea but how many hours after paying did you receive your confirmation email? I paid maybe 2-3 hours ago but I haven't received any email from fox lab. Thank you in advance