Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems

[reavertm]

In my case (recently received new retooled Hako Violets) - there are no stress marks when I'm trying my old https://deskthority.net/wiki/NTC_KB-6251 keycaps on those Box switches.

No stress marks, all keycaps right away audibly crack on first insertion.
I notified KBDfans about the problem, they said they will take it to Kailh.. (again..).

Those stupid ****ing nubs need to go.

Manually removing them with file - while works - is hell of time consuming, considering I have 104 keyboard..
PCB mounting is fine, they fit well in GMMK hot-swap sockets at least.

For sure I'm not going to bother with Kailh Box anytime again until they are confirmed to go around 1.26+/-0.2mm.

'Loose' switch (which can be secured with plastic foil if needed) is always better than switch that breaks keycaps.

[portbaron]

In my case (recently received new retooled Hako Violets) - there are no stress marks when I'm trying my old https://deskthority.net/wiki/NTC_KB-6251 keycaps on those Box switches.

No stress marks, all keycaps right away audibly crack on first insertion.
I notified KBDfans about the problem, they said they will take it to Kailh.. (again..).

Those stupid ****ing nubs need to go.

Manually removing them with file - while works - is hell of time consuming, considering I have 104 keyboard..
PCB mounting is fine, they fit well in GMMK hot-swap sockets at least.

For sure I'm not going to bother with Kailh Box anytime again until they are confirmed to go around 1.26+/-0.2mm.

'Loose' switch (which can be secured with plastic foil if needed) is always better than switch that breaks keycaps.

Ya filing works but it's miserable. There is no question they stress them, I just want to know how far it will go over time. I wonder what the purpose behind the nubs was to begin with.

[KHAANNN]

I was going to check on this thread, and see whether we can get our old Navy's replaced (everyone talks about new, no one talks about replacements, which is a bit weird too)

But I see now that new ones suck too

So a TL;DR: We file both X/Y axises now?

[killyou]

When I've mentioned the matter of faulty switches replacement somewhere over geekhack and reddit I got ****ted over by "satisfied" customers that I should be glad that they acknowledge the problem and that's it. I got downvoted to the oblivion and that is weird especially that people had expensive keysets broken because of that. This thread constantly reaffirms my policy to stick with ZealPC. (this post was typed on freshly installed Tealios).

[Starius]

When I've mentioned the matter of faulty switches replacement somewhere over geekhack and reddit I got ****ted over by "satisfied" customers that I should be glad that they acknowledge the problem and that's it. I got downvoted to the oblivion and that is weird especially that people had expensive keysets broken because of that. This thread constantly reaffirms my policy to stick with ZealPC. (this post was typed on freshly installed Tealios).

That is very disheartening to hear about your experience there on Reddit.  I don't use it much myself, but my understanding was the upvote/downvote system was a pretty good method for making relevant information and concerns accessible.   One wouldn't assume there would be zealotry type factions abusing that system for keyboard switch discussions, but I guess we now live in a world where every single topic is polarizing. 

In my mind, the only reason this discussion about the Box stem issue is so big is because of the fact that those box switches are damn good switches!  They feel great!  If they didn't, this flaw would barely be worth discussing and people would move on and not bother with them anymore.  But the fact they feel so good to use but have this one terrible flaw leaves us general users at a bit of a impasse.
Something has to change though. 

As for myself personally, I have come to the conclusion that I just cant use any of my box switch stock.  And won't be getting anymore until this keycap stress/cracking issue is solved once and for all.  Should that day ever come, I'll be happy to get more. 
By the way, I've been using Tealios on my Tokyo60 since I got it. They are quite nice, aren't they?

[TunnaTown]

That is very disheartening to hear about your experience there on Reddit.  I don't use it much myself, but my understanding was the upvote/downvote system was a pretty good method for making relevant information and concerns accessible.   One wouldn't assume there would be zealotry type factions abusing that system for keyboard switch discussions, but I guess we now live in a world where every single topic is polarizing. 

It is. Some people just can't be excellent to others.

In my mind, the only reason this discussion about the Box stem issue is so big is because of the fact that those box switches are damn good switches!  They feel great!  If they didn't, this flaw would barely be worth discussing and people would move on and not bother with them anymore.  But the fact they feel so good to use but have this one terrible flaw leaves us general users at a bit of a impasse.
Something has to change though. 

You hit the nail right on its head. The BOX switches were game changers. They were/are loved for their feels and rightfully so. It's just those pesky nubs....

[Rumblehotep]

As for myself personally, I have come to the conclusion that I just cant use any of my box switch stock.  And won't be getting anymore until this keycap stress/cracking issue is solved once and for all.  Should that day ever come, I'll be happy to get more. 

It's a hard truth to learn but this is my feeling as well.  Still have a couple boards left to un-box but damned if I'm going to ruin more than one expensive keyset.
I love box navies so much though that I'm just going to keep that board and use stock filco caps which I have several bags of by now.

[ideus]

I lost interest on this. Do not want to know anything about this ****.

[LevelSteam]

Not related to Box Switches but I ran into this today when putting my Maxkey Calm Depths on my Tealios.

Sorry for the ****ty cell phone pic, but if you look closely you can see the stress marks on the stem. I noticed when putting the caps on some of them felt pretty tight, and when I popped them off I saw that they had similar stress marks to those produced by Box Navy switches on my GMK Laser set. Took the calipers to the Tealios and found that everything was well within spec too.

Anyone else run into this with Maxkey sets?

[WheresTheSNES]

Not related to Box Switches but I ran into this today when putting my Maxkey Calm Depths on my Tealios.
(Attachment Link)
Sorry for the ****ty cell phone pic, but if you look closely you can see the stress marks on the stem. I noticed when putting the caps on some of them felt pretty tight, and when I popped them off I saw that they had similar stress marks to those produced by Box Navy switches on my GMK Laser set. Took the calipers to the Tealios and found that everything was well within spec too.

Anyone else run into this with Maxkey sets?

That sucks.  I just ordered some Zealios for my Serika.  Kind of just seems like keycap swapping is a bad idea.

[portbaron]

Not related to Box Switches but I ran into this today when putting my Maxkey Calm Depths on my Tealios.
(Attachment Link)
Sorry for the ****ty cell phone pic, but if you look closely you can see the stress marks on the stem. I noticed when putting the caps on some of them felt pretty tight, and when I popped them off I saw that they had similar stress marks to those produced by Box Navy switches on my GMK Laser set. Took the calipers to the Tealios and found that everything was well within spec too.

Anyone else run into this with Maxkey sets?

Yes.

[LevelSteam]

That sucks.  I just ordered some Zealios for my Serika.  Kind of just seems like keycap swapping is a bad idea.

It should be ok. I've used Zeal/Gateron switches with GMK caps before and never had a problem, and like I mentioned the Zeal Tealios were within spec when I measured them. It seems more like a Maxkey problem in my case so I wouldn't worry about it. Plus it wasn't every key either, so my guess is that there was some variation in the stems.

[pixelpusher]

I’ve had a new GMK set on retooled box reds for almost a week now.  No signs of stress marks or cracks yet. I got them directly from novelkeys

[upintheclouds]

Ya filing works but it's miserable. There is no question they stress them, I just want to know how far it will go over time. I wonder what the purpose behind the nubs was to begin with.

Any updates on stretch/crack damage to your test caps sitting on the retooled BOXes?

I'm trying to decide whether to use, file, or dump a set of retooled BOX switches I planned to put into a gift build.

[pixelpusher]

Ya filing works but it's miserable. There is no question they stress them, I just want to know how far it will go over time. I wonder what the purpose behind the nubs was to begin with.

Any updates on stretch/crack damage to your test caps sitting on the retooled BOXes?

I'm trying to decide whether to use, file, or dump a set of retooled BOX switches I planned to put into a gift build.

Day 15 I think now.  Still absolutely no signs of stress:
https://www.keebtalk.com/t/kailh-box-switch-stem-measurements-and-possible-problems/2926/166?u=pixelpusher

[lutchbu]

Hi guys!
Two weeks ago I made a little tool to fix the BOX switches I have. It got some attention on reddit so I just started an IC.


IC thread: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=97974.0

I thought this might be of interest to some of you.

[Starius]

Hi guys!
Two weeks ago I made a little tool to fix the BOX switches I have. It got some attention on reddit so I just started an IC.

Show Image

IC thread: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=97974.0

I thought this might be of interest to some of you.

Thanks for sharing that here.   
I am definitely interested!

[BigBlackThock]

Yeah, so when box switches came out I thought I would never use another switch again. My latest board is fitted with zilents , unfortunately, because I simply can't risk ruining a brand new set of Honeywell. I know, complaining about using zilents probably sounds ridic, but I really feel like I had to settle. So sad.

[Zuology]

Check out the stem shaver project that's on GH and Reddit. Someone is working on producing a tool to shave the nubs down to within tolerances, essentially a sharpened metal stem/bit.

[blakstealth]

Check out the stem shaver project that's on GH and Reddit. Someone is working on producing a tool to shave the nubs down to within tolerances, essentially a sharpened metal stem/bit.

like the guy above? 

[nerium]

Anyone order the latest batch of box clears? I really want to put these switches on my M60-A but so many people are still reporting issues; even with the re-tooled switches (smaller nubs..)

[pixelpusher]

Anyone order the latest batch of box clears? I really want to put these switches on my M60-A but so many people are still reporting issues; even with the re-tooled switches (smaller nubs..)

Testing them out for the next week, actually.  Just put them in my m60.  I’ll report back soon

[nerium]

Anyone order the latest batch of box clears? I really want to put these switches on my M60-A but so many people are still reporting issues; even with the re-tooled switches (smaller nubs..)

Testing them out for the next week, actually.  Just put them in my m60.  I’ll report back soon

Awesome - thanks!!

[pixelpusher]

BTW, I had GMK aero on retooled box pale blues for over 3 weeks and there are no signs of cracks or stress marks.
https://www.keebtalk.com/t/kailh-box-switch-stem-measurements-and-possible-problems/2926/176?u=pixelpusher

[portbaron]

Quick progress report.
I've had almost 2 dozen assorted gmk caps on retooled jades and novelias and a hako clear from novelkeys for 5 weeks now, with no signs of stress marks (see below). Put them on zealios and zilents today and they still hold.

Also I've had an epbt set on a 65g novelia TKL board for 3 weeks (used daily for 2 of those) with no damage, still very tight if swapped to zealios. Thick pbt doesn't seem to care at all.

My one Maxkey test keycap has a stress mark (see below) on the inside and outside, which it got as soon as I put it on last month and doesn't seem to be getting any bigger.

I've had SA hyperfuse on original box navies for 4 months. I did find 1 key out of the 10 I pulled with a light stress mark on the inside of the stem (can't be seen on the outside). Still fits on zealios without feeling overly loose though. But it's there.

Interestingly, when I pulled a handful of extra zealios and zilents to test them with, I found one zilent that seemed to have a looser stem than all the others. Any keycap I put on, including Leopold PBT and other GMKs that have never touched a box switch, flew off easily. So not all mx switches are the same either and it's best to test a keycap on several different ones before a conclusion is made.

I'm going to keep these going and see where they're at in another month or two. At this point I'd say the retooled boxes aren't bad, with no visible damage to GMKs. Swapped caps are only very slightly looser than GMKs of the same sets which were never on box switches when swapped to zealios, and 'flying caps' were not an issue unlike with original box switches. Having said that, I think there is still a very small difference. IMO it is insignificant because the caps still work without flying off when swapped, but if you don't even want to deal with that, that's a fair decision as well. I personally am not going to worry about it. Definitely better than original version box switches.

[romevi]

Okay, phew. I have a bag of Novelias waiting for a build, and I heard about this issue and only now decided to read up on it.

So Novelias so far are fine?

[portbaron]

Okay, phew. I have a bag of Novelias waiting for a build, and I heard about this issue and only now decided to read up on it.

So Novelias so far are fine?

So far so good.

[att1cus]

I lost interest on this. Do not want to know anything about this ****.

Weird.

[reavertm]

I reported earlier that those recently retooled Kailh Box (Hako Violet in my case) immediately crack my old https://deskthority.net/wiki/NTC_KB-6251 keycaps on insertion.
Those are nice 'vintage' thin ABS keycaps. They sit comfortably on Aristotle MX clicky clones from the same keyboard.

However, my (received a couple of months ago) 'Aliexpress' dual-shot PBT backlit keycaps also sit comfortably on retooled Kailh Box. No cracking or stress marks (after months of testing).
Those keycaps also sit comfortably (not too loose at all) on those Aristotles strangely enough but that's to be expected I guess.

Chinese conspiracy? Kaihua producing oversized Box stems to fit well on cheap Chinese keycaps (with safer margins for oversized stems), but utterly destroy expensive 'Western' tight-margin-produced tech?

[PoochZag]

I reported earlier that those recently retooled Kailh Box (Hako Violet in my case) immediately crack my old https://deskthority.net/wiki/NTC_KB-6251 keycaps on insertion.
Those are nice 'vintage' thin ABS keycaps. They sit comfortably on Aristotle MX clicky clones from the same keyboard.

However, my (received a couple of months ago) 'Aliexpress' dual-shot PBT backlit keycaps also sit comfortably on retooled Kailh Box. No cracking or stress marks (after months of testing).
Those keycaps also sit comfortably (not too loose at all) on those Aristotles strangely enough but that's to be expected I guess.

Chinese conspiracy? Kaihua producing oversized Box stems to fit well on cheap Chinese keycaps (with safer margins for oversized stems), but utterly destroy expensive 'Western' tight-margin-produced tech?

It's been demonstrated many times at this point that PBT seems to be much more resilient than ABS, and doesn't have an issue with cracking on BOX switches that ABS does

[phatty]

I mean Aristotles aren't what you should be using as a staple for measuring. Those stems suck. Ever turn tour keyboard upside down? You'll get caps that fall off.

[romevi]

Interestingly enough, I'm going to be using Novelias and Cherrystotles in two upcoming builds. 

[kgolden]

I run thick PBT keycaps.. is it still okay to buy box switches? I'd like to try box black switches. Would you guys recommend these or some other cherry clone?

[Photoelectric]

Do your own testing, to be safe.  BOX Black switches are pretty cheap.  Get a set of 5 [retooled]  switches or some low number, put a couple of your PBT keycaps on them and see how the fit is, and whether there are any signs of stress.  There’s significant variance in keycap stem fit from set to set for different brands, materials, profiles, ages/batches, etc.

[kgolden]

Do your own testing, to be safe.  BOX Black switches are pretty cheap.  Get a set of 5 [retooled]  switches or some low number, put a couple of your PBT keycaps on them and see how the fit is, and whether there are any signs of stress.  There’s significant variance in keycap stem fit from set to set for different brands, materials, profiles, ages/batches, etc.

Hmm that much variation in switches huh?.. okay thanks for the input.

[Techno Trousers]

I think it's more the variation in the "female" side in the keycap stems. Not to mention material, thickness, etc.

[Photoelectric]

I think it's more the variation in the "female" side in the keycap stems. Not to mention material, thickness, etc.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant.  Given the same exact switch, some keycaps till sit more tightly, some loosely.  Internal stem shape on keycaps differs as well, and some are extra grippy / click onto stems with notches (for example older SP DSA sets that hold on super tightly to Cherry MX Clear stems in particular).  If your PBT set is of the tighter fit variety, it might have trouble with BOX switches.

[kgolden]

I think I may just stick to a something I know will work without any issue. I'd rather play it safe. Thanks guys.

[Darknight00z]

Ideas on rescuing cracked stems?

[mta]

This topic is pretty long -- can anyone summarize? Are the new retooled Kalih Box switches still breaking certain keysets? If so, which? I recently bought some Box Navies from Novelkeys.

[pixelpusher]

This topic is pretty long -- can anyone summarize? Are the new retooled Kalih Box switches still breaking certain keysets? If so, which? I recently bought some Box Navies from Novelkeys.

I've put nice GMK caps on retooled box switches and have not had problems.  I had cracked stems from old version.  I think it's "safe-R" to use retooled, but just proceed with caution.  Most of the times I had cracked stems I heard them crack when i first mounted them.  Currently enjoying the box pink, black, and Hako violet.

[ideus]

This topic is pretty long -- can anyone summarize? Are the new retooled Kalih Box switches still breaking certain keysets? If so, which? I recently bought some Box Navies from Novelkeys.

I've put nice GMK caps on retooled box switches and have not had problems.  I had cracked stems from old version.  I think it's "safe-R" to use retooled, but just proceed with caution.  Most of the times I had cracked stems I heard them crack when i first mounted them.  Currently enjoying the box pink, black, and Hako violet.

Is there any way to tell if the switches are actually retooled? I have what I think are pale blue retooled switches that I bought out of the last MD drop, but not sure if they may not damage cap's stems.

[Photoelectric]

This topic is pretty long -- can anyone summarize? Are the new retooled Kalih Box switches still breaking certain keysets? If so, which? I recently bought some Box Navies from Novelkeys.

I've put nice GMK caps on retooled box switches and have not had problems.  I had cracked stems from old version.  I think it's "safe-R" to use retooled, but just proceed with caution.  Most of the times I had cracked stems I heard them crack when i first mounted them.  Currently enjoying the box pink, black, and Hako violet.

Is there any way to tell if the switches are actually retooled? I have what I think are pale blue retooled switches that I bought out of the last MD drop, but not sure if they may not damage cap's stems.

Yeah, get a magnifying glass and look at the stem closely.  New vs. Old photos here:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=96323.msg2665771#msg2665771

[ideus]

This topic is pretty long -- can anyone summarize? Are the new retooled Kalih Box switches still breaking certain keysets? If so, which? I recently bought some Box Navies from Novelkeys.

I've put nice GMK caps on retooled box switches and have not had problems.  I had cracked stems from old version.  I think it's "safe-R" to use retooled, but just proceed with caution.  Most of the times I had cracked stems I heard them crack when i first mounted them.  Currently enjoying the box pink, black, and Hako violet.

Is there any way to tell if the switches are actually retooled? I have what I think are pale blue retooled switches that I bought out of the last MD drop, but not sure if they may not damage cap's stems.

Yeah, get a magnifying glass and look at the stem closely.  New vs. Old photos here:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=96323.msg2665771#msg2665771

Wow, that is awesome, thank you Mr. Photo

[SpAmRaY]

Anyone had cracked stems with DSA keycaps?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[zslane]

I believe nerdblog_io did; he said:

R.I.P my DSA Legacy Rush set 

zealio v2 here we come

[KHAANNN]

This is the hardest mod I've done, I'm up to 4 switches now at one sitting, takes 30+ minutes, so ~8 minutes per switch

There's only one 2mm diamond file from the Aliexpress kit fit for the job, it's surface area is flat, others are more curved - as mentioned in the comments here, getting rid of the nubs gets the job done, while you are filing the nubs, the feedback is very grindy, after the nubs are gone, the file runs smoothly - you have to push it as hard as you can, while being very steady

The process is really taxing, it's heavy on the fingers, when I first started, I was filing my thumb's nail too, currently got the hang of it tho

The process makes you philosophically dig deep into life, makes you question your choices etc. - If anyone is considering it, it might be best to wait for a truly fixed release of the switches

[Techno Trousers]

I keep hoping the stemshaver GB will actually happen.

[enrique.aliaga]

Dunno about the stemshaver, but you might want to follow the development of “The Cruciformer”: https://www.keebtalk.com/t/ic-the-cruciformer-a-tool-for-fixing-mx-stems/4653

Looks like it’s happening soon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Starius]

Dunno about the stemshaver, but you might want to follow the development of “The Cruciformer”: https://www.keebtalk.com/t/ic-the-cruciformer-a-tool-for-fixing-mx-stems/4653

Looks like it’s happening soon.

There is also this project, though I don't know much about it myself. 
https://antoniotrkdz.github.io/nubrist/

I hope all of these potential solutions get made, I'd like to try them all.