Post by: driftingbunnies on Fri, 24 May 2019, 23:26:47
Hey guys, PCBs are in and keys have been tested. One thing we've discovered with the ARM processor is that simple LED functionality isn't implemented yet on QMK but Gondo is currently working on a workaround. If we can't figure it out before the GB starts, we have a few options, 1) lights will either be always on or always off, 2) we adjust the case so that there won't be any indicators and it's just a design in that spot, 3) PCB needs to be redesigned to accommodate addressable LEDs or switched to a different processor (probably least ideal because it might cause delays during fulfillment). Besides that, PCB fits well, all keys are recognized and we're good to start sending the prototype off to streamers!
First streamer will be to MechsOnDeck host Chewwy. He'll be streaming a build at ~8pm CT on Tuesday (9/10). Be sure to check out his stream for a first look! https://www.twitch.tv/mechsondeck
After Chewwy's build, I'll be bringing the case over to 001anthony. Currently we're planning to do an unboxing on his Monday stream (9/16) and a build stream on Saturday (9/21). I believe both streams normally start ~9:30pm CT. https://www.twitch.tv/001anthony
I will try to be available for all of these streams but I can't promise I'll be around the entire stream. Be sure to ask any questions you have in the beginning or come drop by the discord. https://discord.gg/fmetSXH (https://discord.gg/fmetSXH)
After the build streams, I'll be shipping that prototype to PheonixStarr to double check everything and make any small adjustments if needed to the case. I will be bringing a few other prototypes to the Austin meetup on the 28th so if you're able to attend that, make sure to come say hi!
GB will start on the 29th at 9AM CT. More details will be posted here before the GB thread opens. Thanks for being patient!
Hi everyone! I've teamed up with two great partners, PheonixStarr from Nightingale Studios (designer for the Ti-65) and Gondolindrim (known for the SharkPCB and Acheron), to bring you "Austin".
Please fill out the IC Form!
IC Form (https://forms.gle/rvzsrWoXUeWs87TP9)
Discord Server (https://discord.gg/fmetSXH)
The purpose of the board is to create a full size replacement while reducing the width. The board features a full size numpad, separated arrow keys, and easy keycap compatibility for most custom keysets (no uncommon key sizes). It's great for those who need the functionality of a full size but don't want to give up the quality that a custom keyboard provides.
Specifications:
- Aluminum top and bottom - 6063
- Brass weight - Sandblasted
- Top mounted
- 5.5 degree slope
- Fixed plates for ANSI and ISO (ISO plates will be MOQ 10)
- Plate material - Brass (standard), CF, PC
- QMK PCB with USB C
- USB ESD protection on the data lines
- ESD inrush current from case protection on par with IEC EMC standards
- Overvoltage and overcurrent protection
- ARM processor
Pricing:
40 Units FCFS
Standard Kit (Aluminum case with weight, PCB, and brass plate) - $475
Extra Brass Plate - TBD
Extra CF Plate - TBD
Extra PC Plate - TBD
Extra PCB - TBD
Colors offerred:
Onyx Black
Titanium Gray
Cobalt Blue
Sterling Silver
New Renders as of 6/16:
Austin ft. GMK Rudy* Renders with keycaps are for demonstration only for those who might be confused Starston3 & Pluto. The GB will not include keycaps.
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(https://imgur.com/eOF8gg9)
(https://i.imgur.com/eOF8gg9.jpg)
Expanded views
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by PheonixStarr. Hit him up for some crispy renders
Layout:
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The layout has been decided based on the feedback on the DB01 IC thread. It looks like most people preferred a fixed layout, and the two bottom rows shown were the most popular. This cuts down on having too much Swiss cheese and keeps the plate simpler so it's easier to keep switches straight. I've also cut down on the usual 1u compatibility of the numpad for "Enter" since this board already provides all keys found on a full size. In order to accomplish the dual bottom layout of 1.5/1.5/7/1.5/1.5 and 1.25/1.25/1.25/6.25/1.5/1.5, we are going to change the switches to be North facing for the tsangan layout 1.25/1.25/1.25/6.25/1.5/1.5. This allows people to use either layout without needing to pick a particular file to flash. Update, we've decided to remove the 1u compatibility for the numpad + in order to keep the PCB simple. Adding that compatibility would reduce the sizes of the pads or we would have made the switch rotated 90 degrees. In order to keep all switches and pads uniform, we decided to remove it.
Notes:
- The design is still subject to change. However, don't expect large design changes. The idea behind the design is to keep a simple and elegant design for a functional keyboard that can be used at home or in the workplace.
- I understand this looks similar to a Duck Jetfire. However, this keyboard provides a 2u '0' for the numpad and does not use a Duck PCB. Two big advantages in my book.
- If there are any technical questions about the PCB, feel free to post on this IC and Gondo will provide you a magnificent answer.
- Indicator LEDs will need to be soldered into the PCB
- Will the PCB have Hotswap? No, hotswap will not be available. This would require a redesign of the PCB and based on the predicted price range of this keyboard, our target audience should be comfortable with soldering.
- N E ISO avail? Sorry, I'm looking to keep this smaller. Unless we're unable to reach MOQ without ISO, it will be ANSI only.
- PheonixStarr and Gondo for teaming up with me
- UndercoverBrother, ManofInterest, Capsy, Seoulcialite, and others who I've asked for feedback
- Hiney, Upas, Okonomiyaki, PyroPyroPryo, and others who I've asked for help
UPDATE AS OF 7/4/19
Prototypes have been received and they look good. We're currently waiting on testing the firmware for the prototype PCBs and will order a new round of PCBs once that is successful. There was a KiCad bug that did not test all the diode and resistor locations which might affect the switch placements. Once the new round of PCBs have been tested and assembled, we will start sending the prototype boards to a few streamers to build and review.
Colors
We will be offering the case in black, gray, and blue. For the prototype run, we tested the factories gray and blue. The gray turned out great but the blue is too intense of a blue. We will choose a darker navy blue for production.
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Pricing
Pricing for a standard kit will start at $475 before fees and shipping. The standard kit will include anodized aluminum top/bottom pieces, anodized aluminum plate, and sandblasted brass weight. Optional sandblasted brass plate will be available and other plate materials are still in consideration. We will only be offering sandblasted brass for this round in order to keep things simple and costs lower. We will request a quote for a possible fourth color (silver). The GB will be limited to 40 spots. FCFS
TLDR: Waiting to test firmware on the prototype PCBs. Once those are done, we will order a new round of PCBs to send to reviewers. Price starts at $475 for a standard kit (black/gray/blue case w/ aluminum plate and brass weight). 40 units FCFS
Prototypes
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Current Status:
Please come here to check on where we're at!
(As of 5/24/19) We're getting quotes for prototypes and are planning to run a 20-30 unit run once we're happy with a manufacturer.
This is only the first revision, and there are a few fixes that need to be made to the files. I will update the renders once new revisions are available. Pricing is still TBD, but given the size of the board, don't expect Polaris pricing.
(As of 5/25/19) Added IC form, please fill out!
(As of 5/28/19) Current waiting for a few more quotes to compare. PCB design should be finished by this week and any small changes to the case due to the PCB should be done this week as well. Planning to order prototypes next week.
(As of 5/31/19) Small update to design, the brass weight will be more rectangular rather than the duck shape from the renders. We will get updated renders so that it'll be easier to see but our current priority is to finish the design files to get to our manufacturer.
(As of 6/1/19) Added discord channel
(As of 6/8/19) In order to accomplish the dual bottom layout of 1.5/1.5/7/1.5/1.5 and 1.25/1.25/1.25/6.25/1.5/1.5, we are going to change the switches to be North facing for the tsangan layout 1.25/1.25/1.25/6.25/1.5/1.5. This allows people to use either layout without needing to pick a particular file to flash. If there is any objection, please let us know here or in the discord.
(As of 6/9/19) Gondo was able to solve the issue of overlapping pins so we won't have any north facing switches for the bottom row.
(As of 6/10/19) Payment for our first protos have gone out!
(As of 6/15/19) Production for prototypes should be finished by June 24th. I expect them to be in my hands sometime in July. We're currently ironing out issues with the PCB fab but hopefully production of the prototype should start next week.
(As of 6/16/19) Added new renders with GMK Rudy and expanded views with the new brass weight.
(As of 6/25/19) Prototype cases are getting close to being finished and should be shipped out by the end of this week. The prototype PCBs are currently being assembled by PheonixStarr and Gondolindrim is finishing up the firmware.
(As of 6/30/19) Prototype 1 should be here on Monday. Prototype 2 will be shipped by Tuesday. We've had to make some changes to the PCB due to a bug in KiCad so new prototypes will need to be ordered. This will add an extra week or two before the GB can start. Also, we decided to remove the 1u compatibility from the numpad + key in order to keep the PCB simple. See layout comment for more details.
(As of 7/22/19) Major delays on the PCB but now our PCB designer is finally getting better after a couple weeks of being in the hospital. Hopefully we will be able to order another batch of Prototype PCBs this week and we should be underway. Hopefully we will be able to get some boards to some streamers by the end of August.
(As of 8/1/19) Second round of proto PCBs have been ordered. Expecting to receive them in 2-3 weeks and will test the final firmware with the new PCB. We're also ordered a new top piece for an adjustment to the LED area. We will try another dark blue with that piece so we should have a better idea what the blue will look like for production.
(As of 8/21/19) Second batch of proto PCBs will be shipping soon. I expect to receive them and test them sometime next week. If everything checks out, I will be sending them to streamers and updating this thread for all the GB details.
(As of 8/27/19) Batch of proto PCBs have been received but we still don't have a working firmware. Unfortunately there is no ETA on this but we will move forward as soon as we can. Apologies for the delays.
(As of 9/9/19) Rollout update posted to top of the post.
Post by: jariss on Fri, 24 May 2019, 23:37:06
Post by: Rejeckted on Fri, 24 May 2019, 23:58:50
Post by: fombat on Sat, 25 May 2019, 01:13:44
Post by: bthezebra on Sat, 25 May 2019, 01:33:51
Post by: PheonixStarr on Sat, 25 May 2019, 01:49:18
Post by: Furikurichemy on Sat, 25 May 2019, 02:20:23
from this point on not a single soul will notice at all that the switch cutout for the X key is entirely missing from the plate
lol
Very nice design though! Hopefully I'll be able to grab one when the time comes.
Post by: portbaron on Sat, 25 May 2019, 02:43:40
Post by: thornkin on Sat, 25 May 2019, 03:05:49
Laser ALT sporting red Sky Pandas
Post by: eskimojo on Sat, 25 May 2019, 03:22:40
Disappointed by the lack of ISO personally, but it's understandable if you're only planning a small run. GLWIC <3
Post by: jihadu on Sat, 25 May 2019, 05:26:01
Jk good looking board
Post by: forumusername on Sat, 25 May 2019, 08:17:35
Post by: WithoutWeakness on Sat, 25 May 2019, 10:01:47
Post by: FatOldGuy on Sat, 25 May 2019, 10:05:18
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Sat, 25 May 2019, 10:12:08
I like it. A lot. I want one. Very much.
Post by: noahf on Sat, 25 May 2019, 10:18:38
Post by: Nigolski on Sat, 25 May 2019, 10:30:47
Post by: driftingbunnies on Sat, 25 May 2019, 10:31:06
B-but...it’s not named after a girl.
I like it. A lot. I want one. Very much.
Haha I'm no TGR
Post by: krutmob on Sat, 25 May 2019, 11:14:10
Post by: Macmutant on Sat, 25 May 2019, 13:18:47
Post by: driftingbunnies on Sat, 25 May 2019, 13:20:19
Looks great! I'm interested. The only thing I would change, is to offer split plus on the num pad.
I was thinking of including that initially but I personally didn't know anyone that used the numpad like that. Mind if I ask what keys would you put there if you split the plus?
Post by: tex_live_utility on Sat, 25 May 2019, 14:01:12
Looks great! I'm interested. The only thing I would change, is to offer split plus on the num pad.
I was thinking of including that initially but I personally didn't know anyone that used the numpad like that. Mind if I ask what keys would you put there if you split the plus?
It's used on the AEK II, allowing you to add an "=" key to the numpad (very useful IMO).
Pic here: https://ttic.uchicago.edu/~cotter/projects/aek2/images/leds.jpg
Post by: Macmutant on Sat, 25 May 2019, 14:12:53
Looks great! I'm interested. The only thing I would change, is to offer split plus on the num pad.
I was thinking of including that initially but I personally didn't know anyone that used the numpad like that. Mind if I ask what keys would you put there if you split the plus?
It's used on the AEK II, allowing you to add an "=" key to the numpad (very useful IMO).
Pic here: https://ttic.uchicago.edu/~cotter/projects/aek2/images/leds.jpg
Exactly! This is how I would use it.
Post by: janglad on Sat, 25 May 2019, 14:13:37
Post by: Xynerorias on Sat, 25 May 2019, 15:06:24
Post by: driftingbunnies on Sat, 25 May 2019, 15:54:30
If it's true to cost or at least not overpriced, just like polaris, that's a yes for me.
What would you consider overpriced? I can't compete with kbdfans quantity.
Post by: cirrus82 on Sat, 25 May 2019, 16:26:41
Post by: driftingbunnies on Sat, 25 May 2019, 17:52:48
ne X avail
'X' key cutout will be an extra feature
Post by: driftingbunnies on Sat, 25 May 2019, 19:45:43
Post by: Corgiattackkk on Sat, 25 May 2019, 22:17:52
Post by: driftingbunnies on Sat, 25 May 2019, 22:21:14
Would left-handed numpad be a possible option? It looks like it'd be a pretty clean swap and would still look beautiful <3 The blue is definitely my favorite in the picture.
A left handed version would be interesting but would have to be another run if there's enough interest for that. It would require an entire redesign even though the layout would be pretty similar.
Post by: xondat on Sat, 25 May 2019, 22:23:16
Otherwise the design looks good and will be good to see physical samples :thumb:
Post by: forumusername on Sat, 25 May 2019, 22:27:35
Post by: driftingbunnies on Sat, 25 May 2019, 23:12:29
What changes are planned after the small proto run?
Sorry for the strange wording. Currently we have some small revisions (adding split +, adding x key) to be made before we order a prototype. Once we receive that and everything is good, we'll move forward with the production run. There are no planned changes that would be made between prototype and production.
Post by: iammeuru on Fri, 31 May 2019, 01:57:11
Post by: Locnguyen1507 on Fri, 31 May 2019, 10:50:10
Post by: forumusername on Fri, 31 May 2019, 10:59:13
Post by: driftingbunnies on Fri, 31 May 2019, 11:02:53
Also, come join our discord server if you have any feedback! Thanks!
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Sat, 01 June 2019, 13:42:55
Post by: thornkin on Sat, 01 June 2019, 15:37:41
Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
Post by: driftingbunnies on Sat, 01 June 2019, 16:02:32
Post by: J3ff_Leopard on Sat, 01 June 2019, 17:34:45
Post by: MyCow on Sat, 01 June 2019, 20:31:38
Post by: vicissitude on Sat, 01 June 2019, 20:43:43
I love it.
Post by: Just Lucan on Sun, 02 June 2019, 05:11:37
Post by: thornkin on Sun, 02 June 2019, 18:23:37
Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
Post by: driftingbunnies on Sun, 02 June 2019, 18:29:35
Post by: thornkin on Tue, 04 June 2019, 00:07:09
Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
Post by: forumusername on Tue, 04 June 2019, 07:40:13
Post by: driftingbunnies on Sat, 08 June 2019, 19:34:32
Thanks!
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sun, 09 June 2019, 23:26:13
Quick update, in order to accomplish the dual bottom layout of 1.5/1.5/7/1.5/1.5 and 1.25/1.25/1.25/6.25/1.5/1.5, we are going to change the switches to be North facing for the tsangan layout 1.25/1.25/1.25/6.25/1.5/1.5. This allows people to use either layout without needing to pick a particular file to flash. If there is any objection, please let us know here or in the discord.
Thanks!
We figured it out guys, all LEDs will be south facing
Post by: steazy on Mon, 10 June 2019, 03:06:27
Post by: patently_odious on Mon, 10 June 2019, 10:29:37
Superb layout and design - I'm very interested in this GB.
Post by: WithoutWeakness on Mon, 10 June 2019, 14:46:15
Is raw, uncoated, non-anodized aluminum a viable case color option? Aluminum naturally forms a protective oxide and a muted patina over time which might be interesting - has anyone tried this?I don't think it would be as interesting as you might imagine. The aluminum oxide patina is basically a thin dull-grey outer coating. Given that the casing of a keyboard isn't usually handled directly in any manner I don't think you would really get any notable results other than a dull grey case for your keyboard. Maybe a wrist rest or integrated palm rests on something like a full-hand ErgoDox would be better but at best it would be somewhat shiny where your wrists sit/rub and dull grey everywhere else.
Superb layout and design - I'm very interested in this GB.
Post by: driftingbunnies on Mon, 10 June 2019, 14:50:18
Is raw, uncoated, non-anodized aluminum a viable case color option? Aluminum naturally forms a protective oxide and a muted patina over time which might be interesting - has anyone tried this?
Superb layout and design - I'm very interested in this GB.
Unfortunately, you might be the only person who would be interested in a raw aluminum case. Also, we will probably only offer 3 colors since additional colors will add more to the cost. Be sure to fill out the IC form so I can tabulate which colors are more popular! Thanks. :)
Post by: Full on Wed, 19 June 2019, 09:55:19
Post by: driftingbunnies on Thu, 04 July 2019, 13:45:13
Post by: reidd on Thu, 04 July 2019, 18:44:11
Is raw, uncoated, non-anodized aluminum a viable case color option? Aluminum naturally forms a protective oxide and a muted patina over time which might be interesting - has anyone tried this?
Superb layout and design - I'm very interested in this GB.
Unfortunately, you might be the only person who would be interested in a raw aluminum case. Also, we will probably only offer 3 colors since additional colors will add more to the cost. Be sure to fill out the IC form so I can tabulate which colors are more popular! Thanks. :)
If there is a RAW option I will probably join hahah
Post by: cyyz on Thu, 04 July 2019, 21:32:53
Post by: driftingbunnies on Thu, 04 July 2019, 21:34:25
I was hoping silver would be offered, but in for one regardless.
Depending on the price for a 4th color, silver might be added.
Post by: hottrout on Fri, 05 July 2019, 06:39:50
Do you think ISO will be available?
Post by: driftingbunnies on Fri, 05 July 2019, 10:27:34
I would jump in if ISO becomes an option. It is a very clean design, like a lot.
Do you think ISO will be available?
Thanks! We were hoping it would be a clean "endgame" workboard.
Unfortunately we're probably a little too late in the game to be implementing ISO. Hopefully you'll still consider joining.
Post by: Kokaloo on Fri, 05 July 2019, 11:00:03
Post by: sadmachine on Fri, 05 July 2019, 20:00:46
Post by: Gondolindrim on Fri, 05 July 2019, 22:52:06
Will this be VIA-compatible?
Unfortunately no. VIA is not accepting anymore boards for now
Post by: objex on Sun, 07 July 2019, 22:16:15
Post by: RivieraS on Thu, 11 July 2019, 00:38:40
Post by: hottrout on Thu, 11 July 2019, 05:18:46
I would jump in if ISO becomes an option. It is a very clean design, like a lot.
Do you think ISO will be available?
Thanks! We were hoping it would be a clean "endgame" workboard.
Unfortunately we're probably a little too late in the game to be implementing ISO. Hopefully you'll still consider joining.
This makes me very sad. Why is ISO not considered a standard requirement. There is a world outside of the US. This keeb is beautiful but without ISO support it can't be my daily driver, which is exactly why I want it.
Post by: Anakey on Thu, 11 July 2019, 05:34:17
Post by: hottrout on Thu, 11 July 2019, 05:42:56
Unfortunately the market is big enough in the US and also China that they can fill the maximum order quantity as ansi alone and so they just decide to ignore ISO because it is not worth the effort to cater for a few that would want ISO when those spots will be filled by ansi anyway as well as the useless reasons of pcb compatibility and plates with bigger cutouts.
I get it but .... this hobby is nothing if not niche. If the whole things starts to turn into a sales driven business, we all may as well just buy a decent Filco and get on with it. ISO requirements is not even niche to start with. Europe + UK + Ireland + many others.
Post by: Poesjuh on Thu, 11 July 2019, 05:55:55
Post by: hottrout on Thu, 11 July 2019, 06:13:30
I'd say that once more the most easy solution would be to include iso compatibility in the PCB (few extra holes and that's it) and to release the plates files (after the gb) so potential ISO buyers can get their own plate cut. Plus, ansi buyer might want a different material plat so they can get that as well :)
That would be a good start.
Post by: driftingbunnies on Thu, 11 July 2019, 07:25:52
I would jump in if ISO becomes an option. It is a very clean design, like a lot.
Do you think ISO will be available?
Thanks! We were hoping it would be a clean "endgame" workboard.
Unfortunately we're probably a little too late in the game to be implementing ISO. Hopefully you'll still consider joining.
This makes me very sad. Why is ISO not considered a standard requirement. There is a world outside of the US. This keeb is beautiful but without ISO support it can't be my daily driver, which is exactly why I want it.
I will ask my team to see what they think and maybe we can come up with a solution. I do understand that there are a few out there that would like this board if it had ISO but here are some of the reasons why I decided not to include compatibility.
- ISO enter compromises the integrity of the Enter area on the PCB. My goal was to have a fairly fixed PCB layout and reduce any swiss cheese.
- I personally wanted to reduce the risk of shipping too many boards outside of the U.S. While it shouldn't be an issue, there is always risk when having to declare and ship to other countries. This is my own personal preference. I understand there are people who ship overseas all the time but I still believe there is risk there.
- Since I am in the U.S. and I am an ANSI user, I think it makes sense to offer ANSI. Similarly, if I was interested in a board that was being made from someone in the UK and all they offered was ISO, I would understand that. If someone in Japan offered only JIS, I wouldn't be upset because they decided not to include ANSI.
Hopefully we can come up with a solution for those who are interested in Austin but also want ISO. TBH, I think there is less than a handful but please let me know in Discord that you are interested so I can keep in mind how many are interested.
Post by: hottrout on Thu, 11 July 2019, 08:45:00
I would jump in if ISO becomes an option. It is a very clean design, like a lot.
Do you think ISO will be available?
Thanks! We were hoping it would be a clean "endgame" workboard.
Unfortunately we're probably a little too late in the game to be implementing ISO. Hopefully you'll still consider joining.
This makes me very sad. Why is ISO not considered a standard requirement. There is a world outside of the US. This keeb is beautiful but without ISO support it can't be my daily driver, which is exactly why I want it.
I will ask my team to see what they think and maybe we can come up with a solution. I do understand that there are a few out there that would like this board if it had ISO but here are some of the reasons why I decided not to include compatibility.
- ISO enter compromises the integrity of the Enter area on the PCB. My goal was to have a fairly fixed PCB layout and reduce any swiss cheese.
- I personally wanted to reduce the risk of shipping too many boards outside of the U.S. While it shouldn't be an issue, there is always risk when having to declare and ship to other countries. This is my own personal preference. I understand there are people who ship overseas all the time but I still believe there is risk there.
- Since I am in the U.S. and I am an ANSI user, I think it makes sense to offer ANSI. Similarly, if I was interested in a board that was being made from someone in the UK and all they offered was ISO, I would understand that. If someone in Japan offered only JIS, I wouldn't be upset because they decided not to include ANSI.
Hopefully we can come up with a solution for those who are interested in Austin but also want ISO. TBH, I think there is less than a handful but please let me know in Discord that you are interested so I can keep in mind how many are interested.
I do understand and am not actually mad at your decision. It makes sense in every way. I just hate missing out on keyboards as good as this one. I know you understand where I am coming from.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Fri, 12 July 2019, 00:49:40
I'd say that once more the most easy solution would be to include iso compatibility in the PCB (few extra holes and that's it) and to release the plates files (after the gb) so potential ISO buyers can get their own plate cut. Plus, ansi buyer might want a different material plat so they can get that as well :)
That would be a good start.
PCB-wise, ISO implementation is not a problem at all. What really is at stake here is the philosophy of this board - a clean "endgame" type board, and ISO support does compromise both PCB and plate integrity.
Talking to bunnies we came up with an idea. The PCB will be released under the Acheron project, and as such will be published under Open-Source Hardwarw guidelines, meaning anyone will be able to order extra PCBs. Mind you this was agreed from the start. The files will be completely published in their KiCad form once the GB is over. We could take advantage of this and implement ISO compatibility in a posterior version after the GB, so you ISO guys can run an after groupbuy among you. If bunnies agrees I could also make plate files so you can easily and cheaply order them made from FR4, in the same package as the PCB.
I could also customize the PCB to your liking, adding or removing key support, even making an "iso only" version. I am willing to do this redesign free of charge so we can expand the lifetime and support of the board for the users.
Then again, this is an idea we are discussing. The problem with it is that by knowing you would order an extra PCB after, you would not want to buy the original GB version, and we are not splitting kits.
We could also offer the ISO PCB and ISO FR4 plate as an extra kit, but that should be discussed more because it would take a lot more logistics and possibly more prototyping. This brings a big issue: let's face it, only a handful of the GB participants would buy this kit and the PCBA factory MOQ is 5 PCBs. So we already have an MOQ. Not only that, at the small quantity of five PCBs, the unitary prices of manufacturing and assembling skyrocket to possibly 80 bucks a PCB, meaning that the supposed add-on kit could easily cross 100 dollars price.
A third idea would be as you said -- make the original PCB ISO compatible. Honestly I think we'll avoid that since it goes against the board philosophy of being simple and clean.
We'd love to hear you guys on these ideas. We really want to accommodate as much people as we can but, then again, this is a very limited run and our priority is to deliver a clean, high-end keeb.
Post by: Anakey on Fri, 12 July 2019, 02:16:04
I'd say that once more the most easy solution would be to include iso compatibility in the PCB (few extra holes and that's it) and to release the plates files (after the gb) so potential ISO buyers can get their own plate cut. Plus, ansi buyer might want a different material plat so they can get that as well :)
That would be a good start.
PCB-wise, ISO implementation is not a problem at all. What really is at stake here is the philosophy of this board - a clean "endgame" type board, and ISO support does compromise both PCB and plate integrity.
Talking to bunnies we came up with an idea. The PCB will be released under the Acheron project, and as such will be published under Open-Source Hardwarw guidelines, meaning anyone will be able to order extra PCBs. Mind you this was agreed from the start. The files will be completely published in their KiCad form once the GB is over. We could take advantage of this and implement ISO compatibility in a posterior version after the GB, so you ISO guys can run an after groupbuy among you. If bunnies agrees I could also make plate files so you can easily and cheaply order them made from FR4, in the same package as the PCB.
I could also customize the PCB to your liking, adding or removing key support, even making an "iso only" version. I am willing to do this redesign free of charge so we can expand the lifetime and support of the board for the users.
Then again, this is an idea we are discussing. The problem with it is that by knowing you would order an extra PCB after, you would not want to buy the original GB version, and we are not splitting kits.
We could also offer the ISO PCB and ISO FR4 plate as an extra kit, but that should be discussed more because it would take a lot more logistics and possibly more prototyping. This brings a big issue: let's face it, only a handful of the GB participants would buy this kit and the PCBA factory MOQ is 5 PCBs. So we already have an MOQ. Not only that, at the small quantity of five PCBs, the unitary prices of manufacturing and assembling skyrocket to possibly 80 bucks a PCB, meaning that the supposed add-on kit could easily cross 100 dollars price.
A third idea would be as you said -- make the original PCB ISO compatible. Honestly I think we'll avoid that since it goes against the board philosophy of being simple and clean.
We'd love to hear you guys on these ideas. We really want to accommodate as much people as we can but, then again, this is a very limited run and our priority is to deliver a clean, high-end keeb.
Why does it matter about having a clean pcb that is not seen when in the case? Plate I can fully understand so long as a plate file can be released then one can get one cut locally in the material of their choosing so you can keep the clean plate. This above post is just basically trying to politely ask those that want ISO not to bother.
Nevertheless it is your board and you are free to do as you please with it, I am sure there will be other 'High End' boards that would not be so entrenched in their ways and would be more accommodating to those outside ansi.
Post by: finalarcadia on Fri, 12 July 2019, 07:14:54
Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
Post by: Gondolindrim on Fri, 12 July 2019, 12:06:42
I'd say that once more the most easy solution would be to include iso compatibility in the PCB (few extra holes and that's it) and to release the plates files (after the gb) so potential ISO buyers can get their own plate cut. Plus, ansi buyer might want a different material plat so they can get that as well :)
That would be a good start.
PCB-wise, ISO implementation is not a problem at all. What really is at stake here is the philosophy of this board - a clean "endgame" type board, and ISO support does compromise both PCB and plate integrity.
Talking to bunnies we came up with an idea. The PCB will be released under the Acheron project, and as such will be published under Open-Source Hardwarw guidelines, meaning anyone will be able to order extra PCBs. Mind you this was agreed from the start. The files will be completely published in their KiCad form once the GB is over. We could take advantage of this and implement ISO compatibility in a posterior version after the GB, so you ISO guys can run an after groupbuy among you. If bunnies agrees I could also make plate files so you can easily and cheaply order them made from FR4, in the same package as the PCB.
I could also customize the PCB to your liking, adding or removing key support, even making an "iso only" version. I am willing to do this redesign free of charge so we can expand the lifetime and support of the board for the users.
Then again, this is an idea we are discussing. The problem with it is that by knowing you would order an extra PCB after, you would not want to buy the original GB version, and we are not splitting kits.
We could also offer the ISO PCB and ISO FR4 plate as an extra kit, but that should be discussed more because it would take a lot more logistics and possibly more prototyping. This brings a big issue: let's face it, only a handful of the GB participants would buy this kit and the PCBA factory MOQ is 5 PCBs. So we already have an MOQ. Not only that, at the small quantity of five PCBs, the unitary prices of manufacturing and assembling skyrocket to possibly 80 bucks a PCB, meaning that the supposed add-on kit could easily cross 100 dollars price.
A third idea would be as you said -- make the original PCB ISO compatible. Honestly I think we'll avoid that since it goes against the board philosophy of being simple and clean.
We'd love to hear you guys on these ideas. We really want to accommodate as much people as we can but, then again, this is a very limited run and our priority is to deliver a clean, high-end keeb.
Why does it matter about having a clean pcb that is not seen when in the case? Plate I can fully understand so long as a plate file can be released then one can get one cut locally in the material of their choosing so you can keep the clean plate. This above post is just basically trying to politely ask those that want ISO not to bother.
Nevertheless it is your board and you are free to do as you please with it, I am sure there will be other 'High End' boards that would not be so entrenched in their ways and would be more accommodating to those outside ansi.
In all honesty, I'm sorry if I came as arrogant. I was just presenting ideas, really. And I didn't want to "politely dismiss" anyone who wants ISO support. The main issue here, as you said, is the plate. The PCB can receive ISO support no problem.
Also you gave us a really good idea, which is do ISO compatible PCB and release plate files after the GB so that you guys can cut the plate. We are discussing this and honestly I think it's a good solution. Thank you for the help.
Again, ideas are welcome and we are here for feedback.
Post by: hottrout on Sat, 13 July 2019, 06:41:23
I appreciate more than most the complications of trying to make most of the people happy most of the time, having said that, if and when there is a simple inclusion that can be made at the start of a project like this, it should be made. This hobby is very very niche. It should always be about providing for the few that support it.
Either way I appreciate your hard work and fully understand the complications of trying to put something like this together. You have my support and my respect for doing when others talk, I just might not be able to use this keyboard for my daily driver, which is exactly how I saw it. There is no higher praise for any bespoke keeb than becoming the daily driver. Most of our 'interest' boards don't get used that often. The 'daily driver' becomes your friend.
Post by: driftingbunnies on Sat, 13 July 2019, 08:25:20
I'd say that once more the most easy solution would be to include iso compatibility in the PCB (few extra holes and that's it) and to release the plates files (after the gb) so potential ISO buyers can get their own plate cut. Plus, ansi buyer might want a different material plat so they can get that as well :)
That would be a good start.
PCB-wise, ISO implementation is not a problem at all. What really is at stake here is the philosophy of this board - a clean "endgame" type board, and ISO support does compromise both PCB and plate integrity.
Talking to bunnies we came up with an idea. The PCB will be released under the Acheron project, and as such will be published under Open-Source Hardwarw guidelines, meaning anyone will be able to order extra PCBs. Mind you this was agreed from the start. The files will be completely published in their KiCad form once the GB is over. We could take advantage of this and implement ISO compatibility in a posterior version after the GB, so you ISO guys can run an after groupbuy among you. If bunnies agrees I could also make plate files so you can easily and cheaply order them made from FR4, in the same package as the PCB.
I could also customize the PCB to your liking, adding or removing key support, even making an "iso only" version. I am willing to do this redesign free of charge so we can expand the lifetime and support of the board for the users.
Then again, this is an idea we are discussing. The problem with it is that by knowing you would order an extra PCB after, you would not want to buy the original GB version, and we are not splitting kits.
We could also offer the ISO PCB and ISO FR4 plate as an extra kit, but that should be discussed more because it would take a lot more logistics and possibly more prototyping. This brings a big issue: let's face it, only a handful of the GB participants would buy this kit and the PCBA factory MOQ is 5 PCBs. So we already have an MOQ. Not only that, at the small quantity of five PCBs, the unitary prices of manufacturing and assembling skyrocket to possibly 80 bucks a PCB, meaning that the supposed add-on kit could easily cross 100 dollars price.
A third idea would be as you said -- make the original PCB ISO compatible. Honestly I think we'll avoid that since it goes against the board philosophy of being simple and clean.
We'd love to hear you guys on these ideas. We really want to accommodate as much people as we can but, then again, this is a very limited run and our priority is to deliver a clean, high-end keeb.
Why does it matter about having a clean pcb that is not seen when in the case? Plate I can fully understand so long as a plate file can be released then one can get one cut locally in the material of their choosing so you can keep the clean plate. This above post is just basically trying to politely ask those that want ISO not to bother.
Nevertheless it is your board and you are free to do as you please with it, I am sure there will be other 'High End' boards that would not be so entrenched in their ways and would be more accommodating to those outside ansi.
Thanks for your feedback. I hope you can appreciate the fact that this started out much smaller than what it is turning out to be. There are reasons boards like Maarten's PlainC and Upas' AN-C exists. The purpose of those boards are to reduce the number of layouts so that there is less swiss cheese making it easier for the user to build their board.
We would be moving from something like this:
[attachimg=1]
To this:
[attachimg=2]
No matter how you look at it, the board is less complicated and easier to build. We're not trying to actively not include ISO users but given that this started as a very small project (20-30) units, including ISO was not one of our top priorities. I for one care about having a clean PCB when building even if I don't see it. Why do people buy multicolor switches if you don't see them? Why do weights have designs if you won't see them when you're using it? Since the hobby is still relatively new and growing, I think there is room to try different things even if it might seem "unaccomodating" or "entrenched in their ways".
Anyways, now that we are adding ISO compatibility, I hope to see your name on the GB list :thumb:
A clean PCB does not come high on my priority, even when spending large sums on a keyboard. ISO support is not just the UK, it is required for a large proportion of Europe as well, not to mention those that simply prefer its layout.
I appreciate more than most the complications of trying to make most of the people happy most of the time, having said that, if and when there is a simple inclusion that can be made at the start of a project like this, it should be made. This hobby is very very niche. It should always be about providing for the few that support it.
Either way I appreciate your hard work and fully understand the complications of trying to put something like this together. You have my support and my respect for doing when others talk, I just might not be able to use this keyboard for my daily driver, which is exactly how I saw it. There is no higher praise for any bespoke keeb than becoming the daily driver. Most of our 'interest' boards don't get used that often. The 'daily driver' becomes your friend.
Thank you for your support! It is very difficult to appease most parties. Since everything in this hobby is a preference, it's impossible have every option available to make everyone happy. Mentioned above, this projected started out small and got bigger as time went on which is why we did not consider including ISO. We are hoping to make these daily drivers for those who use a numpad often. I know I will be using it as one.
We will consider implementing the ISO compat but will think about how to add plates later. If we're unable to provide it in the GB, we will release an ISO only plate file for those who need it made.
I'd like to thank everyone for their feedback. Please feel free to join our discord server if you have any additional feedback. While it's fun to create a board that I know I will enjoy, I hope others will be able to enjoy it as well! It's much easier to make changes earlier in the process rather than later.
P.S. Please excuse Gondo's essay. He was high on medicinal drugs and is currently in the hospital working on the PCB. None of this would be possible without him.
Post by: Datastream on Sat, 13 July 2019, 09:00:36
Post by: driftingbunnies on Sat, 13 July 2019, 09:15:35
Post by: andrethreeclacks on Sat, 13 July 2019, 10:59:05
I just hope this line of complaining does not become commonplace because much of this thread felt like the antithesis of a supporting community. The most that should have been said "Ah man I love this board but since there is no ISO I will not be joining" and leave it at that. Jaekeebs does not go in guilt-tripping others into changing designs but does give praise to those that support the layout, I respect that of him and I believe that is the way it should be.
End of Rant
Post by: hottrout on Sat, 13 July 2019, 13:58:47
That is all.
If ISO is provided for in PCB and case I will be very happy and I am sure a lot of others will be as well. If not then that's also ok as this is only a hobby and people have lives and plenty of other stuff to worry about.
Post by: andrethreeclacks on Sat, 13 July 2019, 15:29:38
- if this is not a complaint then I guess its just an impassioned statement
Quote from: Anakey on July 11, 2019, 04:34:17 am
Unfortunately the market is big enough in the US and also China that they can fill the maximum order quantity as ansi alone and so they just decide to ignore ISO because it is not worth the effort to cater for a few that would want ISO when those spots will be filled by ansi anyway as well as the useless reasons of pcb compatibility and plates with bigger cutouts.
"I get it but .... this hobby is nothing if not niche. If the whole things starts to turn into a sales driven business, we all may as well just buy a decent Filco and get on with it. ISO requirements is not even niche to start with. Europe + UK + Ireland + many others."
-hyperbolic "the end of customs is neigh" because of one designer's choice
I respectfully disagree with your claim of not complaining once.
Anyway GLWB
Post by: badboy731 on Sat, 13 July 2019, 19:06:21
Post by: hottrout on Sun, 14 July 2019, 04:32:36
Post by: GoofyBeanie on Mon, 15 July 2019, 16:48:12
Post by: tonsoffun49 on Mon, 15 July 2019, 16:58:10
Post by: driftingbunnies on Mon, 15 July 2019, 17:05:42
May I ask why it is limited to only 40 boards? Is there a ballpark ETA on when the GB will start? (sorry if I missed it in an earlier post).
40 was just the number I was comfortable with managing so I can deliver a quality product while having extras in case things go wrong. GB timeline is still waiting on firmware to be tested. Unfortunately our team is in 3 different timezones but we're working as quickly as we can. Thanks for your patience.
Post by: Datastream on Wed, 31 July 2019, 10:39:26
Post by: driftingbunnies on Wed, 31 July 2019, 10:50:55
If there's more interest than spots available will it be first come first served or raffled entries?
Unfortunately it's really hard to gauge interest and how that translates into people actually buying during GB. Since we're not like Keycult or other recognized keyboard makers/designers, I can't assume that demand will severely outstrip supply.
Fortunately there will be extras/b stock after the GB concludes so hopefully if you can't join the GB, there is a chance to get one afterwards. If there is enough interest for a r2, that is also a possibility.
Post by: badboy731 on Sun, 11 August 2019, 19:59:24
Post by: VelourFog on Sun, 11 August 2019, 22:58:03
Post by: GraffitiDecos on Mon, 12 August 2019, 10:20:55
Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
Post by: absit on Tue, 13 August 2019, 11:10:26
Post by: Gondolindrim on Tue, 13 August 2019, 15:02:10
I somehow overlooked this project. As someone who uses the tenkey daily, 2u 0 is a huge quality of life improvement over the 1u on other 1800/96 style boards and I'm surprised it isn't implemented more often. The only aspect that isn't ideal for me personally is the angle, 5.5 degrees is a bit flatter than I typically enjoy. Not a deal killer though, so depending on timing, I may be able to jump on this one.
I get you. I use 2U 0 so much that the bottom part of my thumb is already callused and I cant use 1U anymore, I get all calculations wrong.
Post by: pat.k.yan on Thu, 22 August 2019, 23:40:42
Post by: zantetsuken9000 on Sun, 25 August 2019, 06:04:41
Will be a perfect board for work.
Post by: Daggerfall on Thu, 29 August 2019, 02:47:22
Post by: vicissitude on Thu, 29 August 2019, 06:36:58
The triangle logo is cool.
Post by: driftingbunnies on Mon, 09 September 2019, 11:01:00
Post by: eniigma on Mon, 09 September 2019, 12:14:04
Thanks everyone for your patience! Rollout update has been posted to the OP ;DI don't know what exactly your intentions are for this group buy but if you are looking to lower pricing and attract more buyers, you could probably get them to make it for you and distribute it with Polaris pricing. But if you want to keep this a small, private run, that makes sense too!
Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
Post by: driftingbunnies on Mon, 09 September 2019, 12:26:38
Thanks everyone for your patience! Rollout update has been posted to the OP ;DI don't know what exactly your intentions are for this group buy but if you are looking to lower pricing and attract more buyers, you could probably get them to make it for you and distribute it with Polaris pricing. But if you want to keep this a small, private run, that makes sense too!
Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
Thank you for your concern! My initial intentions were to create a board with a layout that I enjoy and see if there are others who would be interested in something similar. I'm not sure who you mean by "you could probably get them to make it for you and distribute it" but if you mean KBDfans, I would prefer to keep this as a smaller run. KBDfans is amazing at what they do and their ability to offer great products at what the community would consider "budget custom" prices is awesome. However, not all boards are aimed to be budget boards and not all GB runners can run hundreds of boards at a time. This is a hobby for me and I do not do this as a full time job so unfortunately I cannot compete with KBDfans when it comes to what they do. I also am realistic enough to know I will not sell as many boards of Austin as the Polaris. Similar to any other product that is custom or bespoke, there is a reason why prices are high and quantities are low. Hopefully you understand and will consider joining the GB. Thanks!
Post by: eniigma on Mon, 09 September 2019, 13:06:29
Yep, just wanted to know where you were going with this. In terms of quality control, KBDfans could do that for you, but I know what you mean about wanting to keep the first batch small and very high quality. I'm planning to do the same thing soon. Good luck with the buy! I'm rooting for you!Thanks everyone for your patience! Rollout update has been posted to the OP ;DI don't know what exactly your intentions are for this group buy but if you are looking to lower pricing and attract more buyers, you could probably get them to make it for you and distribute it with Polaris pricing. But if you want to keep this a small, private run, that makes sense too!
Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
Thank you for your concern! My initial intentions were to create a board with a layout that I enjoy and see if there are others who would be interested in something similar. I'm not sure who you mean by "you could probably get them to make it for you and distribute it" but if you mean KBDfans, I would prefer to keep this as a smaller run. KBDfans is amazing at what they do and their ability to offer great products at what the community would consider "budget custom" prices is awesome. However, not all boards are aimed to be budget boards and not all GB runners can run hundreds of boards at a time. This is a hobby for me and I do not do this as a full time job so unfortunately I cannot compete with KBDfans when it comes to what they do. I also am realistic enough to know I will not sell as many boards of Austin as the Polaris. Similar to any other product that is custom or bespoke, there is a reason why prices are high and quantities are low. Hopefully you understand and will consider joining the GB. Thanks!
Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
Post by: captsis on Mon, 09 September 2019, 19:21:35
Post by: thornkin on Mon, 09 September 2019, 23:36:24
Post by: driftingbunnies on Wed, 11 September 2019, 15:41:28
Excited for this, but wish it wasn't so close in time to the hbcp.
Yeah, unfortunately both Hiney and I had the bad luck of having the same delays (time-wise) for our boards. Initially we were both looking for a June/July launch but it looks like we're both going to have a Sept launch instead. Hopefully the extra time should give you time to save up unless you're going to buy the 7+ sets available this month. :))
Post by: driftingbunnies on Sat, 21 September 2019, 08:40:53