I thought this was ridiculous

[patrickgeekhack]

I've had a few older co-workers of my fiance say to us (cuz we're like 30 and the youngest ppl they know) that thier kids stop learning how to write at 5th/6th grade and almost exclusively use laptops.

That's too early in my opinion too. I've heard more and more students taking laptops to classes in high school. If they also have access to a wireless network, I wonder how many of them are spending their time on IM rather than listening to what is going on in class.

[patrickgeekhack]

I wonder what this would look like: Imagine a penmanship forum (or subforum), where every post is required to be handwritten and scanned in as jpg. (or, inked on tablet maybe). No typing allowed at all in any post.

It's not uncommonon to have a comment in the form of a scanned JPG on FPN, is it? :-)

Edit: Info more appropriate to the "Rules" thread. I've removed this part.

[Lanx]

WELL now.....

well yea, that was just being ironic, and quoting.

[wellington1869]

That's too early in my opinion too. I've heard more and more students taking laptops to classes in high school. If they also have access to a wireless network, I wonder how many of them are spending their time on IM rather than listening to what is going on in class.

and attention spans drop, and linear thinking never develops...

hand-writing an essay, versus putting it together in word processor -- very different mental techniques are used, IMHO. Linear thought (and requiring longer attention spans) vs random access (and requiring shorter attention spans).
Sometimes i honestly believe the loss of Linear Thought Skills is going to be the downfall of our species. Then I realize I sound like an old man. But really, I wonder about that.

Bring back the pen! Save the species!

[ch_123]

Handwriting is largely dying out as a necessity in the modern world. It's easy to get bogged down in the romanticism of it all, but the reality is that there's a serious problem with people coming out of schools with poor grasps of mathematics, sciences, and foreign languages - all of which are desperately needed by the all-consuming economic monster. Instead, when children go into school, when they're at the peak of their ability to learn, they're being bombarded with useless things like handwriting, religious brainwashing, and over here - dead languages that no one speaks.

Besides, isn't there a problem with people not knowing one end of a computer from another? Teach useful things with computers - sounds like a way to kill two birds with one stone.

[Lanx]

when in an office environment it becomes easier/fast/better to leave a text than a real physical sticky, then we'll know that the pen is finally dead and corporations start to turn a profit.(cuz they no longer have to buy 2tons of pens a year, only for 99% of them to be stolen)

[wellington1869]

when in an office environment it becomes easier/fast/better to leave a text than a real physical sticky,

well we can sort of do that now by sending an SMS (made even easier with a smartphone). In our office SMS messages outnumber even emails like 4 to 1 if not more. Even things like 'out to lunch back at 2' which formerly would go on a postit.

[patrickgeekhack]

Handwriting is largely dying out as a necessity in the modern world. It's easy to get bogged down in the romanticism of it all, but the reality is that there's a serious problem with people coming out of schools with poor grasps of mathematics, sciences, and foreign languages - all of which are desperately needed by the all-consuming economic monster. Instead, when children go into school, when they're at the peak of their ability to learn, they're being bombarded with useless things like handwriting, religious brainwashing, and over here - dead languages that no one speaks.

Besides, isn't there a problem with people not knowing one end of a computer from another? Teach useful things with computers - sounds like a way to kill two birds with one stone.

I am not saying that it's not important to learn mathematics, sciences and foreign language. However, I am sure it's not a bad thing to teach handwriting. Why? Learning to write and learning mathematics require different parts of one's brain. Developing the right brain is as important as developing the left brain. Better developed right brainers will probably be better at designing stuffs. It's very easy to see that we need better designers everywhere. Bad design examples can be seen everywhere.

Work which requires extensive use of the right brain usually does not get shipped overseas. A good chef's work cannot be shipped overseas nor can the work of a good teacher. Writing lines of code however can be shipped overseas.

[EverythingIBM]

when in an office environment it becomes easier/fast/better to leave a text than a real physical sticky, then we'll know that the pen is finally dead and corporations start to turn a profit.(cuz they no longer have to buy 2tons of pens a year, only for 99% of them to be stolen)

Yeah, the majority of my pens either get stolen, lost, or never returned when borrowed (which is why I don't let anyone borrow my pens -- I get defensive over them; they're the fine tip ones, I can't use regular pens).

Writing is the same as speaking, it'll never truly vanish. One interesting thing though, since so many people are using technology to communicate, there will be a huge gap of history missing... whereas all the letters of people from the past were all kept preserved.

and attention spans drop, and linear thinking never develops...

hand-writing an essay, versus putting it together in word processor -- very different mental techniques are used, IMHO. Linear thought (and requiring longer attention spans) vs random access (and requiring shorter attention spans).
Sometimes i honestly believe the loss of Linear Thought Skills is going to be the downfall of our species. Then I realize I sound like an old man. But really, I wonder about that.

Bring back the pen! Save the species!

Our school actually requires [some] work to be written out on the computer. I found my computers (and TI-83 plus silver) great for school work. But yes, I do get distracted a lot -- but that would happen with or without a computer.

[patrickgeekhack]

well we can sort of do that now by sending an SMS (made even easier with a smartphone). In our office SMS messages outnumber even emails like 4 to 1 if not more. Even things like 'out to lunch back at 2' which formerly would go on a postit.

One downside of SMS is it's not 100% reliable. There's no confirmation of whether a text message was effectively delivered and received.

[patrickgeekhack]

Writing is the same as speaking, it'll never truly vanish. One interesting thing though, since so many people are using technology to communicate, there will be a huge gap of history missing... whereas all the letters of people from the past were all kept preserved.

This is why I have decided to keep a journal where I write the important things that took place in the life of my daughter. I know that 10 years from now, we will forget about the small things which were important to us when they took place. I thought about doing it on the computer, but I'm not sure if the format will be readable in 10 years from now. The paper journal, on the other hand, has a bigger chance of surviving time.

But, I, too, think that handwriting will never truly vanish. For example, many thought we would be heading to a paperless world. What really happened is that people are printing even more, because they are so scared about losing the data in case of a computer crash.

[patrickgeekhack]

Writing does help remembering though.  In one  of my courses, the prof allowed us to bring a cheat sheet. After having written down information, I found myself not need the sheet at all.

[J888www]

lol, i would actually like that bic

You have a good eye.

Current market value of that BIC is US $2000, and no sellers.

Photo of item is a bit tarnished, with a bit of "spit n polish", it's a sight to behold.

Apart from the BIC Sterling Silver Commemorative, there are other BIC collectables ie: BIC Crystal Clear (actual crystal, not the usual plastic), BIC Vermeil Silver and BIC Radica.

The BIC Crystal Clear is nice too. To the unknowing eye, it may look normal until it catches the sunlight, it also has a more substantial feel than the normal round sticks.

Edit: My mistake, the $2k value is for the BIC Sterling Silver Commemorative, not the Vermeil Silver BIC

[wellington1869]

Work which requires extensive use of the right brain usually does not get shipped overseas. A good chef's work cannot be shipped overseas nor can the work of a good teacher. Writing lines of code however can be shipped overseas.

thats an interesting way of looking at it! I never thought of it in terms of concrete economic advantages. But yea, "artistic" skills usually arent  commodities the way manufactured/systematized products are.

Current market value of that BIC is US $2000, and no sellers.

holy crap

Photo of item is a bit tarnished, with a bit of "spit n polish", it's a sight to behold.

i'll bet!  how hard would it be to silverplate an existing plastic bic?

The nice-writing bic i'm thinking of is 1.6mm "cristal" line. omg it writes like butter. Looks like a standard bic when you see it though.

Writing does help remembering though.  In one  of my courses, the prof allowed us to bring a cheat sheet. After having written down information, I found myself not need the sheet at all.

the other nice thing about a handwritten journal and etc, is you can write non-linearly (doodles, maps, arrows pointing to other notes in a "mindmap" style, everything done spontaneously. That sort of 'mapping out' of interconnected ideas, i've never been able to do as efficiently and spontaneously on the computer.

[Lanx]

Writing does help remembering though.  In one  of my courses, the prof allowed us to bring a cheat sheet. After having written down information, I found myself not need the sheet at all.

I think this has to do w/ the type of learner you, for instance I am a visual-spatial leaner, i learn by interacting and engaging, while others can learn by straight reading. This why i've taken to painfullly writing down my projects in folders rather than using excel on them. It just makes it more relatable to me.

[wellington1869]

I think this has to do w/ the type of learner you, for instance I am a visual-spatial leaner, i learn by interacting and engaging, while others can learn by straight reading. This why i've taken to painfullly writing down my projects in folders rather than using excel on them. It just makes it more relatable to me.

i'm pretty sure i'm deeply "visual-spatial" too.  The only succesful way I know to organize an essay is write the main points on index cards, kneel in front of my bed (using bed as a gigantic desk), and place the index cards on it and juggle them around until I have the structure I want.  I've found absolutley no digital substitute for that process.
(Oh, and then i cant sleep on my bed until i'm done writing cuz i dare not move the index cards out of position

[patrickgeekhack]

I think this has to do w/ the type of learner you, for instance I am a visual-spatial leaner, i learn by interacting and engaging, while others can learn by straight reading. This why i've taken to painfullly writing down my projects in folders rather than using excel on them. It just makes it more relatable to me.

Interesting. My wife is more of an interactive learner as well. I, on the other hand, do not do well in "group study." I'm way better off on my own. In that case, yes, writing does help me a lot.

[patrickgeekhack]

thats an interesting way of looking at it! I never thought of it in terms of concrete economic advantages. But yea, "artistic" skills usually arent  commodities the way manufactured/systematized products are.

One book made me realise this : A Whole New Mind by Daniel Pink. A very very interesting book, especially for high school student. If anything else, it opens one's eyes to different way of looking at things.

Typically, he says that if one's job can be made cheaper by workers in other countries or can be automatized by machines machines, then one is in danger of losing one's job sooner or later.

[patrickgeekhack]

Something I found interesting in comparing the use of a keyboard and the use of a pen is the notion of importance of speed. When typing, most of us would like to increase our WPM. A keyboard which slows us down will not get used much.

On the other hand, in the pen world like on the FPN, "slowing down" or "taking time" are things that are explicitly or implicitly implied. You hear people saying they want to exchange letters because they want to slow down a bit. They want to take the time to enjoy an activity instead of always rushing. Letter exchange is very good for this. For example, I need to find the time to sit down and write the letter. And because I would like to please myself as well as please my recipient, I will take the time to write beautifuly. Then, I need to place a stamp on the envelop and mail it. If I don't have enough stamps handy, I will need to take the letter to the post office.

Then, after a few days or even weeks, depending on where my recipient lives, I will one day open my mailbox and see an envelope and feel a great sense of joy, go home to open it and read the letter. Of course, it will be then time to write back.

Because there is a lot of time involved between the reception of each letter, a lot of things take place in one's life so that when the time to write another letter arrive, one is never short of things to say. Now compare this to e-mail or text messaging. Sometimes, communication become so "easy" that at first, we exchange a lot of e-mails. Then, we start to run out of things to say and eventually, we stop e-mailing.

[Lanx]

^--- lol i wonder if grade schoolers even have pen pals anymore? i know i did back in 2nd grade? now they prolly just email their new buddies!

[patrickgeekhack]

^--- lol i wonder if grade schoolers even have pen pals anymore? i know i did back in 2nd grade? now they prolly just email their new buddies!

The people exchanging letters on FPN are mainly adults. But, you're right that the chance of getting a grade school student involved in letter exchange is virtually nil :-)

I don't think they even e-mail their buddies now. Today, the new e-mail system is called FaceBook.

[wellington1869]

Something I found interesting in comparing the use of a keyboard and the use of a pen is the notion of importance of speed. When typing, most of us would like to increase our WPM. A keyboard which slows us down will not get used much.

On the other hand, in the pen world like on the FPN, "slowing down" or "taking time" are things that are explicitly or implicitly implied.

this is an important point I think. We forget these days that "slowing down" has real and tangible advantages.  You're right that the idea of slowing down on a keyboard would be ridiculed if anything.

[wellington1869]

^--- lol i wonder if grade schoolers even have pen pals anymore? i know i did back in 2nd grade? now they prolly just email their new buddies!

email? Pfffff. Video chat on Skype! Chatroullete around the world! They'll see each others penises in no time!

[erricrice]

Well, talk about random other forums, here's a lighting forum:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/

Hey, they've got wayyyy more members than us, so they must be doing something right...

[wellington1869]

Well, talk about random other forums, here's a lighting forum:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/

Hey, they've got wayyyy more members than us, so they must be doing something right...

thats fascinating. I confess I apparently have a thing for flashlights. I mean, in the sense that, i have pretty specific likes and dislikes in terms of features and looks, and apparently i've actually put some thought into it.

i've also thought a lot about umbrellas. I bet there is an umbrella forum.

seriously.  For a while i was on a quest to find an unbreakable umbrella (gust buster ftw. built in flaps that open up if the wind blows it the wrong way, prevents it from turning inside out). They also have umbrellas with 'unbreakable' kevlar skeletons, for instance.

and the neat-o mechanisms for auto-open and auto-close (the latter is more rare as a feature, and is very neat if you ask me). I had an auto-close one for a while and funnily i got a lot of comments on it whenever i closed it with the push of a button while others were struggling to close theirs before going inside. It was popular  The mechanism didnt last long tho (about 6 months) before breaking.

[erricrice]

Candlepower is a very enLIGHTening forum.

I used them extensively researching battery chargers for photo equipment.  Got this awesome charger using their info.

Show Image

Plus if you like dinking around by supercharging green lasers. My son has one of those.  

Flashlights I find pretty boring though.

Yeah, I've been thinking about doing the green laser thing for a while, just need to get the motivation...

thats fascinating. I confess I apparently have a thing for flashlights. I mean, in the sense that, i have pretty specific likes and dislikes in terms of features and looks, and apparently i've actually put some thought into it.

i've also thought a lot about umbrellas. I bet there is an umbrella forum.

seriously.  For a while i was on a quest to find an unbreakable umbrella (gust buster ftw. built in flaps that open up if the wind blows it the wrong way, prevents it from turning inside out). They also have umbrellas with 'unbreakable' kevlar skeletons, for instance.

and the neat-o mechanisms for auto-open and auto-close (the latter is more rare as a feature, and is very neat if you ask me). I had an auto-close one for a while and funnily i got a lot of comments on it whenever i closed it with the push of a button while others were struggling to close theirs before going inside. It was popular :)  The mechanism didnt last long tho (about 6 months) before breaking.

Damn, how did the auto-close work?  Seems like it would be a difficult mechanism to put into practice.  Probably why it broke so soon lol

[wellington1869]

Damn, how did the auto-close work?  Seems like it would be a difficult mechanism to put into practice.  Probably why it broke so soon lol

this was the one i had:
http://www.amazon.com/ShedRain-WindPro-Umbrella-Close-Size/dp/B001DL5WN0/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&s=apparel&qid=1281846432&sr=8-15

notice the "flaps" on top of it -- those are to "relieve" the wind pressure and prevent it from turning inside out

While it worked (about 6 months) i have to tell you it was the coolest bloody umbrella in my neighborhood. It actually feels really cool to walk up to the front door of a building, holding groceries or whatever in your other hand, and just click the button with your thumb and it closes in a flash and you dont miss a second as you open the front door and walk in  You go to the elevator and hit the button and look outside and all your friends are struggling out there to get their umbrellas closed ;-D  Lol it felt cool anyway.

Yea, it broke in 6 months  I'm still not sure how it worked, cuz if it had two springs, wouldnt their forces just balance out? No idea.

Totes makes a number of open/close umbrellas now (on amazon anyway). Might be time to try another one  
I'd want one with those wind-flaps on top though. (The flaps werent always effective btw, but I like the concept).

[gr1m]

I was taught handwriting as a kid (we had handwriting, reading and pronunciation tests every week at my school in Dubai - pre-university education in the Middle East is miles ahead of the Western world) but it didn't help one bit. I can't read my own writing, that's how messy it is. My mom who collects pens tried getting me to use a fountain pen (because  it won't write if you're holding it like a retard) but I went back to my 20-for-$1 blue Bic pens.

*edit
Although, I couldn't live without handwriting. I've never taken a laptop to school. I have to write all my notes by hand, if not out of preference then out of sheer force of habit.

[wellington1869]

I've never taken a laptop to school. I have to write all my notes by hand, if not out of preference then out of sheer force of habit.

me too, tho if i were still taking classes today, i'd be VERY tempted to try out:

a) livescribe pen. Records the lecture while you take handwritten notes; later if you tap somewhere in your handwritten notes, it can play back the audio from that timestamp. Oh also it digitizes the handwritten notes.

b) onenote for taking notes in class - same deal (audio recording alongside handwriting, tap in handwriting and it plays back audio from that timestamp) except you're writing with stylus on tablet screen.

Actually i'm pretty sure if I took a class today i'd use one of the above two, just cuz i'm so sick of hauling around my old class notebooks (and dont have the heart to throw them out). At least this way they're on my hard disk and not in crates on the floor.  But still in hand writing.

[gr1m]

Actually, I even have trouble adapting to the latest paper technology known as loose-leaf. Everybody I know just takes a binder full of loose-leaf to school, takes down notes and then sorts the day's notes at home (into a pile for math, a pile for English, etc.). That means that all you need to take to school is a single binder with a little bit of paper in it. What I do is lug around individual notebooks for each class.

I might try the loose-leaf thing though.

[JBert]

I never used anything other than loose-leaf, recycling old paper with a single-side print in the process.

You do have to develop some new habits though, like marking each page with a code for each course and date so you can easily sort later.

[instantkamera]

Candlepower is a very enLIGHTening forum.

I used them extensively researching battery chargers for photo equipment.  Got this awesome charger using their info.

Show Image

Plus if you like dinking around by supercharging green lasers. My son has one of those.  

Flashlights I find pretty boring though.

Totally off topic, but I have that charger(maha c9000). It is a ****ing beast.

I have about 12 Imedion 2100mAh NIMH batteries that I cycle for my nikon speedlights. They rock too.

[gr1m]

I hate gel pens.  I love mechanical pencils, though.  The Pentel Techniclick was my all-time favorite.

On this subject, my mom was in Lebanon for the last month and I only had one request: Rotring Tikky 1.0 mechanical pencils. Best things evar. 0.5s are scratchy and 0.7s are weak - 1.0s are amazing, and I could never find them in Canada. I'd been using the same one from Dubai for like 5 years and now I have 3 more. Yay. I've never been able to use wooden pencils.

This is what my old one looks like:


This is what the new ones look like:


http://davesmechanicalpencils.blogspot.com/2009/10/rotring-tikky-mechanical-pencil-review.html

[patrickgeekhack]

Actually, I even have trouble adapting to the latest paper technology known as loose-leaf. Everybody I know just takes a binder full of loose-leaf to school, takes down notes and then sorts the day's notes at home (into a pile for math, a pile for English, etc.). That means that all you need to take to school is a single binder with a little bit of paper in it. What I do is lug around individual notebooks for each class.

I might try the loose-leaf thing though.

I think the trick is to find what works best for us. What works best for me, might be the worst method for you and vice versa. For example, some people get better results when they do team work on projects. I, on the other hand, much prefer to work on my own. I am perfectly fine with learning from a textbook.

So, if having individual notebook is what you are comfortable with, then why change it? Why fix something that ain't broke? One advantage of loose leaves is to be able to move a particular sheets in the pile. One advantage of a dedicated notebook is you don't have to spend additional time sorting stuffs.

[patrickgeekhack]

On this subject, my mom was in Lebanon for the last month and I only had one request: Rotring Tikky 1.0 mechanical pencils. Best things evar. 0.5s are scratchy and 0.7s are weak - 1.0s are amazing, and I could never find them in Canada. I'd been using the same one from Dubai for like 5 years and now I have 3 more. Yay. I've never been able to use wooden pencils.

This is what my old one looks like:

Show Image

This is what the new ones look like:

Show Image

http://davesmechanicalpencils.blogspot.com/2009/10/rotring-tikky-mechanical-pencil-review.html

Beautiful pencils indeed. I sometimes like wooden pencils, but they do require sharpenning reguarly. They just remind me of my childhood.

[wellington1869]

On this subject, my mom was in Lebanon for the last month and I only had one request: Rotring Tikky 1.0 mechanical pencils. Best things evar. 0.5s are scratchy and 0.7s are weak - 1.0s are amazing, and I could never find them in Canada. I'd been using the same one from Dubai for like 5 years and now I have 3 more. Yay. I've never been able to use wooden pencils.

those are some handsome pencils.

[Lanx]

i use a battery operated sharpener after every line i write (i like it razor fine) the battery operated one gets it to close to razor sharp, but i have an exacto hand type (you know with the kiddle one and blade by staedlter that gives it scalpel sharpness.

[TheSoulhunter]

Stab me in the heart will ya?

Show Image

Is this a "space pen" in the red fellow?
If so, I got the same pen... :P