Author Topic: CRT retro Filters  (Read 3933 times)

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Offline tp4tissue

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CRT retro Filters
« on: Fri, 07 April 2023, 19:26:46 »
OK, 

Must admit, they look awesome,  BUT INSANE GPU USAGE.

This is on a 1060, 4k res, 92% load.

It has dynamic reflections on the bezel, rgb sub pixel emulation, and fisheye.


298075-0


Offline tp4tissue

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Re: CRT retro Filters
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 07 April 2023, 19:37:42 »
Will say, the makers of these presets on shaders probably aren't color calibrated properly, there is a bit of color cast.  that said, who could say what the true CRT image is supposed to look like, so maybe this is not a legit complaint.

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: CRT retro Filters
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 07 April 2023, 20:21:26 »
is that DTP mega bezel or whatever it's called? if so, that one is known for being cpu intensive

A lot of people swear by crt-aperture that gives really nice 4k grill marks. I like this one, simple to use and looks like a PVM  :thumb:
and CRT Guest is a lot like aperture.
Never used RetroArch, ironic considering it's probably the most popular. I think RA is closer to the all-in-one that deathtopixels offers with like 10000 filter options.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: CRT retro Filters
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 07 April 2023, 20:41:45 »
this filter preset is by retrogames4k,  (sanyo ce1at08) , it uses the megabezel shader.

these run on the gpu.

Offline PlayBox

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Re: CRT retro Filters
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 08 April 2023, 06:14:03 »
i have a 2060 and when i use a crt shader i don't notice a difference in anything except the shader obviously. well you are emulating and its on 4k so its quite demanding for a gpu that's getting obsolete already (1070 1080 and 1080ti are still fine tho)
propably sent from my amazon kindle 10th gen

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: CRT retro Filters
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 08 April 2023, 11:14:16 »
yes, tp4 is deeply ashamed of 1060. gpu of the plebs

Offline PlayBox

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Re: CRT retro Filters
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 08 April 2023, 13:47:30 »
yes, tp4 is deeply ashamed of 1060. gpu of the plebs
its a great but as every piece of hardware it just grew unable to play a lot of games now
propably sent from my amazon kindle 10th gen

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: CRT retro Filters
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 08 April 2023, 21:34:11 »
yes, tp4 is deeply ashamed of 1060. gpu of the plebs
its a great but as every piece of hardware it just grew unable to play a lot of games now

1060 not powerful enough to play games from 30 years ago :))

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: CRT retro Filters
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 08 April 2023, 23:33:43 »
yes, tp4 is deeply ashamed of 1060. gpu of the plebs
its a great but as every piece of hardware it just grew unable to play a lot of games now

1060 not powerful enough to play games from 30 years ago :))


Offline PlayBox

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Re: CRT retro Filters
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 10 April 2023, 15:24:33 »
yes, tp4 is deeply ashamed of 1060. gpu of the plebs
its a great but as every piece of hardware it just grew unable to play a lot of games now

1060 not powerful enough to play games from 30 years ago :))
oh lol i think i just forgot, idk it may be virtualization issue or shader issue can't really tell
propably sent from my amazon kindle 10th gen

Offline Darthbaggins

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Re: CRT retro Filters
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 11 April 2023, 10:23:47 »
pffft just source a Sony CRT, done. . .

 bkrownd:"Those damned rubber chiclet keys are the devil's nipples."   >:D



Offline Pretendo

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Re: CRT retro Filters
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 05 May 2023, 13:55:49 »
pffft just source a Sony CRT, done. . .

Simple today, not tomorrow. Also, CRTs don't fit in everyone's space because they're enormous.

My question is this: if you used a good 4k panel with this filter and added a thick piece of concave glass over top of it, how close could you reasonably get to the CRT illusion? Might not be feasible in the home, but for aging arcade machines with unfried CRTs getting ever scarcer...
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Offline Coreda

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Re: CRT retro Filters
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 05 May 2023, 14:17:02 »
The faux inset monitor bezels reflecting the actual game pixels is a nice touch. Didn't notice that at first.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: CRT retro Filters
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 05 May 2023, 15:41:23 »
The faux inset monitor bezels reflecting the actual game pixels is a nice touch. Didn't notice that at first.

Yea the dynamic reflections use up UBER gpu p0wr.

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: CRT retro Filters
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 05 May 2023, 16:12:31 »
The faux inset monitor bezels reflecting the actual game pixels is a nice touch. Didn't notice that at first.

If you look deep enough into the reflection I could see my old basement and my parents aren't divorced yet. Powerful filter.

Offline HungerMechanic

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Re: CRT retro Filters
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 05 May 2023, 16:32:33 »
Interestingly, some experts say that 8K resolution will be needed to more accurately simulate the CRT using shaders / filters.

And even a NES currently requires ~3 Ghz for near-100% cycle-accurate emulation in Windows 10.

Imagine that, needing 3 Ghz and 8K to properly simulate an NES.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: CRT retro Filters
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 05 May 2023, 16:38:28 »
Interestingly, some experts say that 8K resolution will be needed to more accurately simulate the CRT using shaders / filters.

And even a NES currently requires ~3 Ghz for near-100% cycle-accurate emulation in Windows 10.

Imagine that, needing 3 Ghz and 8K to properly simulate an NES.

More res is always better, but flatpanels will never simulate crts fully because of crt blooming, which is a dynamic tone/contrast situation which shifts across the screen space non linearly. A very bright scene completely desaturates CRT colors, and drops contrast, flattening the image, while darker scenes look extremely pure and inky.

Pixel persistence will also not quite match CRTs. Even if it looks correct in a static image, it can not do it while moving.


Offline Pretendo

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Re: CRT retro Filters
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 08 May 2023, 11:59:58 »
Interestingly, some experts say that 8K resolution will be needed to more accurately simulate the CRT using shaders / filters.

And even a NES currently requires ~3 Ghz for near-100% cycle-accurate emulation in Windows 10.

Imagine that, needing 3 Ghz and 8K to properly simulate an NES.

More res is always better, but flatpanels will never simulate crts fully because of crt blooming, which is a dynamic tone/contrast situation which shifts across the screen space non linearly. A very bright scene completely desaturates CRT colors, and drops contrast, flattening the image, while darker scenes look extremely pure and inky.

Pixel persistence will also not quite match CRTs. Even if it looks correct in a static image, it can not do it while moving.



CRT's don't have pixel persistence as they don't have "pixels."  The equivalent would be screen burn-in, which you wouldn't necessarily want to emulate.

Even among CRT fans, blooming is seen as a problem (usually present to some degree but sometimes made worse by issues in the high voltage power supply) and wouldn't be necessary to emulate to get a good CRT effect.

The only flaws-become-features I'd want to chase in CRT emulation are those that were either purposefully taken advantage of to enhance the look of older games (like color artifacting in composite images, or blur which was purposely taken into account for dithering) or those that inadvertently became ingrained in the look and feel of classic games (scanlines, mild convex screen curvature, aperture grill blurring.) Zero lag, high color accuracy and excellent black level contrast are good ideals to chase regardless of whether or not you're trying to emulate a CRT.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: CRT retro Filters
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 08 May 2023, 14:10:48 »
Interestingly, some experts say that 8K resolution will be needed to more accurately simulate the CRT using shaders / filters.

And even a NES currently requires ~3 Ghz for near-100% cycle-accurate emulation in Windows 10.

Imagine that, needing 3 Ghz and 8K to properly simulate an NES.

More res is always better, but flatpanels will never simulate crts fully because of crt blooming, which is a dynamic tone/contrast situation which shifts across the screen space non linearly. A very bright scene completely desaturates CRT colors, and drops contrast, flattening the image, while darker scenes look extremely pure and inky.

Pixel persistence will also not quite match CRTs. Even if it looks correct in a static image, it can not do it while moving.



CRT's don't have pixel persistence as they don't have "pixels."  The equivalent would be screen burn-in, which you wouldn't necessarily want to emulate.

Even among CRT fans, blooming is seen as a problem (usually present to some degree but sometimes made worse by issues in the high voltage power supply) and wouldn't be necessary to emulate to get a good CRT effect.

The only flaws-become-features I'd want to chase in CRT emulation are those that were either purposefully taken advantage of to enhance the look of older games (like color artifacting in composite images, or blur which was purposely taken into account for dithering) or those that inadvertently became ingrained in the look and feel of classic games (scanlines, mild convex screen curvature, aperture grill blurring.) Zero lag, high color accuracy and excellent black level contrast are good ideals to chase regardless of whether or not you're trying to emulate a CRT.

Crt pixel persistence refers to the rise and decay of the phosphor, not the phosphor wear.   This is a matter of motion clarity.

Offline Pretendo

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Re: CRT retro Filters
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 09 May 2023, 08:19:20 »
Interestingly, some experts say that 8K resolution will be needed to more accurately simulate the CRT using shaders / filters.

And even a NES currently requires ~3 Ghz for near-100% cycle-accurate emulation in Windows 10.

Imagine that, needing 3 Ghz and 8K to properly simulate an NES.

More res is always better, but flatpanels will never simulate crts fully because of crt blooming, which is a dynamic tone/contrast situation which shifts across the screen space non linearly. A very bright scene completely desaturates CRT colors, and drops contrast, flattening the image, while darker scenes look extremely pure and inky.

Pixel persistence will also not quite match CRTs. Even if it looks correct in a static image, it can not do it while moving.



CRT's don't have pixel persistence as they don't have "pixels."  The equivalent would be screen burn-in, which you wouldn't necessarily want to emulate.

Even among CRT fans, blooming is seen as a problem (usually present to some degree but sometimes made worse by issues in the high voltage power supply) and wouldn't be necessary to emulate to get a good CRT effect.

The only flaws-become-features I'd want to chase in CRT emulation are those that were either purposefully taken advantage of to enhance the look of older games (like color artifacting in composite images, or blur which was purposely taken into account for dithering) or those that inadvertently became ingrained in the look and feel of classic games (scanlines, mild convex screen curvature, aperture grill blurring.) Zero lag, high color accuracy and excellent black level contrast are good ideals to chase regardless of whether or not you're trying to emulate a CRT.

Crt pixel persistence refers to the rise and decay of the phosphor, not the phosphor wear.   This is a matter of motion clarity.


What you're describing is a thing CRTs do, but it's not called "pixel persistence."

Truth be told, I had a little bit of trouble finding what it is called, because I always assumed it was "ghosting", but after looking it up that's also a term which mostly refers to LCD pixel persistence. "Image persistence" also turned up mostly LCD phenomena.

From what I can find, the effect you're describing seems to mostly be referred to as "phosphor persistence", "phosphor decay", or just "persistence" or "decay" when specifically used in the context of CRTs... which makes sense, because it's the phosphor coating on the back of the screen that determines how long this effect occurs. Different CRTs have differing amounts of this persistence, with it usually being way more noticeable on monochrome sets. So really you have two entirely different things called "persistence" depending on the display technology.

And yeah, I know this is pedantic, but CRTs have no concept of pixels.  Pixels are strictly in the domain of the video game system plugged into the TV, as far as the tube is concerned it's receiving a stream of analog data. Calling the effect "pixel persistence" could misinform somebody trying to learn how the displays work.

IMO, this effect doesn't really have to be replicated for color CRT emulation because it's not that noticeable, but one thing I didn't initially think of: on earlier titles (particularly vector games) on monochrome sets it can contribute significantly to the look and feel of the game. For example, the missiles are much easier to see when playing on an original Asteroids cabinet than on most emulated versions because of persistence, and it has the effect of looking like a smoke trail coming off the missile.  In these cases, it should certainly be emulated.
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IBM Model M 1391404 -- April 14th, 1988
Rosewill RK-9000

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: CRT retro Filters
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 09 May 2023, 08:48:37 »
There's no reason to get hung up on the semantics.

But the most up to date industry term in relevance to "motion clarity" description is Pixel Persistence, and that's what industry standards refer to when talking about it.

Regardless of the fact that crts do not have standard pixels. The scientists still use Pixel Persistence to refer to the stimulus period.

Offline Pretendo

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Re: CRT retro Filters
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 09 May 2023, 10:54:45 »
There's no reason to get hung up on the semantics.

But the most up to date industry term in relevance to "motion clarity" description is Pixel Persistence, and that's what industry standards refer to when talking about it.

Regardless of the fact that crts do not have standard pixels. The scientists still use Pixel Persistence to refer to the stimulus period.


Which scientists? I tried googling CRT "pixel persistence" and it didn't turn up anything (except people referring to CRTs in the same page as they were referring to LCD pixel persistence.

If you insist that this is the terminology for phosphor decay on a CRT, can you please cite some sources?
IBM Model F-122 6110347 -- September 13th, 1984
IBM Model M 1391404 -- April 14th, 1988
Rosewill RK-9000

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: CRT retro Filters
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 09 May 2023, 11:04:00 »
There's no reason to get hung up on the semantics.

But the most up to date industry term in relevance to "motion clarity" description is Pixel Persistence, and that's what industry standards refer to when talking about it.

Regardless of the fact that crts do not have standard pixels. The scientists still use Pixel Persistence to refer to the stimulus period.


Which scientists? I tried googling CRT "pixel persistence" and it didn't turn up anything (except people referring to CRTs in the same page as they were referring to LCD pixel persistence.

If you insist that this is the terminology for phosphor decay on a CRT, can you please cite some sources?

this is a very new field,  check out blurbusters, blurchief is on the cutting edge, he invented the blur buster law, now in use by all manufacturers for gaming monitors, and pixel persistence or display persistence is the accepted terminology.

again, no one is that hung up on what it's called,  we all already agree on what it is.