Author Topic: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [GB ordering closed]  (Read 75177 times)

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Offline BirgusLatro

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Hey GeekHack!
I am proud to present to you my retro-inspired steel mechanical keyboard with a handle.

It's called the Saturn-60

The Group Buy is moving to production! Check the thread below for updates
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=109090.0

The base kit price is $200.  GB will run for 30 days, unless 500 units are sold earlier. A kit comes with all parts you need to build a Saturn-60 except for switches, stabilizers, and keycaps.
If you are on a budget, feel free to just order plates + PCBs since those could be used outside of the case for a minimalist 60% build.
Color options are pictured below.  Two-toned orders are ok, and you can upgrade the finish of your plate, handle and badges.

Plate options: Plain Aluminum, Black Anodized Alum, Yellow Zinc Plated Steel, Stainless Steel.
Handle Options: Plain Aluminum, Black Anodized Alum, Stainless Steel, Brass
Stainless or Brass Badges
*Default Kit comes with: brushed aluminum Purist plate + clear anodized alum handle + Stainless badges + Titan60.
Saturn-60 is a Bottom-Mounted Keyboard with gasket isolation, and has a floating foam frame that dampens the upper plate and chassis vibrations.

--Vendors--
North + South America:
Ace Keyboard Co.

Europe + ROW
CandyKeys

Oceania:
Daily Clack


Discord: https://discord.com/invite/355EFD3





More





Renders by Milan D. (DevilZmods)
Badge designs by u/JaffaScript


Typing Test:
https://clips.twitch.tv/HelplessMushyBananaVoHiYo


Here are some more pictures:
More



Render



Raw steel prototype (fit & finish will improve with the next round prototype build)




Painted steel prototype


Backside (some screws omitted)


Painted Ortholinear Prototype

Plate (a gasket isolates the plate from the case)


Image gallery: https://imgur.com/gallery/F6eQa4m

Q&A:

What are the physical specs?
•   Footprint: 13.5 x 8 x 2.75 inches / 343 x 203 x 70 mm (with handle folded down)
•   Weight: ~ 4.4 lb / 2 kg assembled with a stainless plate and aluminum handle
•   Typing angle: 7°
•   Front height: 0.8-1.0” / 20-25mm depending on use of feet

What colors will be offered?
- #4 Brushed Stainless Steel https://fractory.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Stainless-Steel-Brushed.jpg
- Beige Texture www.cardinalpaint.com/assets/colors/T241-BG137.jpg [RAL1013]
- Black Texture http://www.cardinalpaint.com/assets/colors/C241-BK01.jpg
- White Texture http://www.cardinalpaint.com/assets/colors/C031-WH120.jpg
- Mint Green https://images.nicindustries.com/prismatic/products/3377/green-bean-psb-2759-dt2018111222241454-thumbnail.jpg

Layouts?
The Saturn-60 should be able to support the most popular 60% layouts using different plates:
ANSI/ISO, 5x15 Ortholinear, 5x14 Boardwalk
Here are the Layouts:
More

PCB?
A custom PCB was designed that can fit any standard 60% case.  Its name is Titan60.  We are working on the QMK and VIA support now.
It has a Type C connector and supports the layouts shown above.  Here are renderings and proto pics:

More

Who is the manufacturer?
A sheet metal fabrication shop in Southern California that does millions of parts per year.  We have met with them and we have confidence in being able to produce this keyboard.  Their stated lead time is around 6-8 weeks.  Note: the pictured prototypes were not made by them, but a machinist friend. New protos have been received as of 9/2/2020 and look very close to ready for production.

How many units will be made?
The MOQ is 100 but the GB will be unlimited.  This round will be limited to 500 units. Extras may or may not be available. 

Cost?
Target cost is between $125-175 $200 for a base kit. Extra parts are available, extra kits may or may not be. Our philosophy was to make this simple, affordable and customizable (a Raspberry Pi 4 fits inside)

Can I make suggestions?
Yes of course, and we appreciate all criticism.  PM me if you have a suggestion or want to collaborate!

Handles?
You will be able to choose from Clear or Black anodized aluminum, Stainless Steel, or Brass.
Otherwise, there will be an option without a handle and the holes to mount them with.

GB Plan:

Vendors:
AceKeyboard.co -- North + South America
CandyKeys.com -- Europe + Asia
DailyClack.com -- Australia + NZ
Date for GB is Friday 16.10.2020
I plan to send an email to those that have already "reserved" one using the IC form or the sign up list and allow them to checkout before the GB opens for FCFS.
Email will be sent to confirm the list within a week.



Thank you for reading!  If you want to support this project you can copy this into your signature:
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« Last Edit: Wed, 28 October 2020, 09:29:39 by BirgusLatro »

Offline mydens

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 12:48:28 »
WHAT IN THE HOLLY F

Offline CrazyAssMonkey

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 12:48:42 »
Holy...

Imagine putting rails on this big boi and having him in a drawer or a server rack!

Nice design!

Offline BirgusLatro

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 13:07:20 »
Holy...

Imagine putting rails on this big boi and having him in a drawer or a server rack!

Nice design!

Thank you!  We were going for those mainframe vibes.  If I were any good at rendering I'd do a bunch of different colors and keycap sets.

Offline lush_bunny

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 17:12:13 »
I dig it.

Offline econeuler

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 18:16:12 »
Hey GeekHack!
Several months ago my friend infected me...

I think is looks really cool! How is the typing feel and sound on the prototype? :)

The painted versions are nice! It would be cool with an old school logo, like the one you had on an image in the google form!

WHAT IN THE HOLLY F

Haha
« Last Edit: Mon, 25 May 2020, 18:23:29 by econeuler »

Offline BirgusLatro

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 19:58:55 »
Hey GeekHack!
Several months ago my friend infected me...

I think is looks really cool! How is the typing feel and sound on the prototype? :)

The painted versions are nice! It would be cool with an old school logo, like the one you had on an image in the google form!

WHAT IN THE HOLLY F

Haha

Thanks for the feedback!  I am working on a logo / badge design for it, but I am an engineer not a graphic designer so my skills are a bit rough :P
The typing feel is very nice, and the sound is a bit different than what I am used to because this is my first time using "Silent" switches.  Next prototype build I will be using regular type switches.
« Last Edit: Mon, 25 May 2020, 20:11:47 by BirgusLatro »

Offline AuthenticDanger

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 20:42:25 »
With the right top/layout, this would be amazing to put some vintage Russian keys on. I'm very interested in this.
F Keys belong on the left.

Offline BirgusLatro

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 21:25:06 »
With the right top/layout, this would be amazing to put some vintage Russian keys on. I'm very interested in this.

Thank you!   ;D  Working on a render to show that this keyboard could have a two-tone colorway thanks to the two piece construction. 

Offline ddrfraser1

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 21:26:30 »
Do you have more pics of the internals? Curious how the top and bottom case come together

Offline switchnollie

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 21:42:42 »
Woah, probably in if it's some high grade SUS being used :cool:


Keyboards: HHKB Pro 1 & OTD 356CL Dark Greyhat Edition, baybee!

Offline BirgusLatro

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 21:45:25 »
Do you have more pics of the internals? Curious how the top and bottom case come together

243488-0
243490-1
243492-2

Basically there are little hooks on the top half of the case that latch into the slots in the bottom half and work like a hinge.

Offline BirgusLatro

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 21:47:49 »
WHAT IN THE HOLLY F

 :eek: I'll take that as a compliment  :p

Offline BirgusLatro

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 22:02:37 »
Woah, probably in if it's some high grade SUS being used :cool:

Thank you!  It's guaranteed to be 100% FAF (Ferrous as F***)
« Last Edit: Mon, 25 May 2020, 22:05:36 by BirgusLatro »

Offline ddrfraser1

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 27 May 2020, 10:29:11 »
Do you have more pics of the internals? Curious how the top and bottom case come together

(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)

Basically there are little hooks on the top half of the case that latch into the slots in the bottom half and work like a hinge.

Very cool. Thanks. How does it mount on the inside?

Offline ddrfraser1

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 27 May 2020, 10:30:05 »
Do you have more pics of the internals? Curious how the top and bottom case come together

(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)

Basically there are little hooks on the top half of the case that latch into the slots in the bottom half and work like a hinge.

Very cool. Thanks. How does it mount on the inside?

Disregard. I forgot about the photos up top.

Offline BirgusLatro

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Update June 11]
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 11 June 2020, 23:40:48 »
Just updated the initial post! Please have a look.

Offline SpaceyCasey

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Update June 11]
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 12 June 2020, 00:05:48 »
Just updated the initial post! Please have a look.

Im in!  Also posted on your discord under the name Reiko. :)


Offline BirgusLatro

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Update June 11]
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 12 June 2020, 09:36:33 »
My apologies to everyone who joined Discord - I accidentally set the invite to "auto kick upon leaving if a role isn't given"   :'(  I have fixed it and here is a proper invite link: https://discord.com/invite/355EFD3

Offline Fredington

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Update June 11]
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 12 June 2020, 09:43:59 »
HHKB please

Offline BirgusLatro

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Update June 11]
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 12 June 2020, 09:52:52 »
HHKB please
Thank you for saying please!  I'm not opposed to it -  I am willing to do other R5 options depending on interest.

Offline SxM Designs

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Update June 11]
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 12 June 2020, 09:54:14 »
Are you planning for a EU vendor?

Offline BirgusLatro

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Update June 11]
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 12 June 2020, 10:05:17 »
Are you planning for a EU vendor?

Thanks for your question!  I'd love to have an EU vendor, but right now I don't have one!  If you or someone you know can help, just PM me.

Offline Malvix Studio

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Update June 11]
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 12 June 2020, 15:31:21 »
This is wild, looks good

Offline BirgusLatro

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Update June 11]
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 12 June 2020, 16:11:58 »
This is wild, looks good

Thank you Malvix!  I'm working on a slogan like: Saturn-60: "It will thock your world"

Offline Dave_G

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Update June 11]
« Reply #25 on: Sat, 13 June 2020, 16:22:54 »
This board looks kind of strange but I love it, the price just makes it that much more appealing. I feel like maybe a  pastel pink or pastel purple colour way could look really good with this!

Offline BirgusLatro

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Update June 11]
« Reply #26 on: Sat, 13 June 2020, 20:26:25 »
This board looks kind of strange but I love it, the price just makes it that much more appealing. I feel like maybe a  pastel pink or pastel purple colour way could look really good with this!
Thanks for your compliment! I will keep everyone posted about colors as the project develops.

Offline equalunique

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Update June 11]
« Reply #27 on: Sun, 14 June 2020, 03:24:17 »
Goodness this design is jaw droppingly awesome. Thank you for the ortholinear support! Are you open to adding Boardwalk support too?

Offline BirgusLatro

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Update June 11]
« Reply #28 on: Sun, 14 June 2020, 11:34:36 »
Goodness this design is jaw droppingly awesome. Thank you for the ortholinear support! Are you open to adding Boardwalk support too?
Thank you so much!!! I think it's one of those products that people either love or hate at first sight.  I am so open to supporting Boardwalk in fact that I've already created a plate for it, and have talked briefly with the Boardwalk people about getting a handful of PCBs to be able to support this GB.

Offline equalunique

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Update June 11]
« Reply #29 on: Sun, 14 June 2020, 13:33:54 »
Goodness this design is jaw droppingly awesome. Thank you for the ortholinear support! Are you open to adding Boardwalk support too?
Thank you so much!!! I think it's one of those products that people either love or hate at first sight.  I am so open to supporting Boardwalk in fact that I've already created a plate for it, and have talked briefly with the Boardwalk people about getting a handful of PCBs to be able to support this GB.
That's really exciting! Later I saw the Boardwalk plate option in the IC survey. :)

That KAT RTTY set in the first render looks interesting. Not sure if I've seen an IC for it on here. Boardwalk support for that would be cool as heck too.

Offline garevigi

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Update June 11]
« Reply #30 on: Mon, 06 July 2020, 18:35:02 »
So I just ordered the GMK Nuclear Data keycaps from dixie, which was my first group buy. Could anyone quickly explain to me what all these lead times mean? At this point could I expect to be able to order and get this keyboard in the next year? Sorry, this is all new to me, but I am very excited about my real big boy build and this would make the data caps very well.

Offline BirgusLatro

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Update June 11]
« Reply #31 on: Mon, 06 July 2020, 19:42:54 »
So I just ordered the GMK Nuclear Data keycaps from dixie, which was my first group buy. Could anyone quickly explain to me what all these lead times mean? At this point could I expect to be able to order and get this keyboard in the next year? Sorry, this is all new to me, but I am very excited about my real big boy build and this would make the data caps very well.

For a Group Buy, the estimated leadtimes are usually stated in the product page. 
The Saturn-60 Group Buy is not-yet open, but I hope to be able to take orders in August.  After that, the keyboards will be produced and sent out.  The approximate lead time between conclusion of GB orders and product delivery is about 8 weeks.
For GMK Nuclear Data it lists the estimated shipping time to be Q2 2021.   Their leadtime is much longer because GMK has a big backlog of custom keycap sets to produce

Hope this was helpful.

Offline garevigi

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Update June 11]
« Reply #32 on: Mon, 06 July 2020, 20:19:31 »
Extremely helpful! Cant wait to purchase my first kit!

Offline Starius

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Protos Ordered]
« Reply #33 on: Thu, 09 July 2020, 20:40:26 »
Oh yeah, I gotta get me one of these for sure.  :thumb:

Offline ISOxSwap

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Protos Ordered]
« Reply #34 on: Fri, 10 July 2020, 14:21:00 »
Whoa, so this is the keeb im gonna match with KAM Wraith!  :eek:

Offline sth

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Protos Ordered]
« Reply #35 on: Fri, 10 July 2020, 19:45:19 »
How do you plan on making the raspberry pi ports accessible from outside the case?
11:48 -!- SmallFry [~SmallFry@unaffiliated/smallfry] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] ... rest in peace

Offline BirgusLatro

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Protos Ordered]
« Reply #36 on: Fri, 10 July 2020, 20:43:27 »
How do you plan on making the raspberry pi ports accessible from outside the case?
  There's a USB 3.0 panel cable that goes into the case - if someone wanted to have an HDMI output, etc, they would have to drill a hole on the back wall or notch the bottom edge for cables to escape

Offline eatanygoodbooks

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Protos Ordered]
« Reply #37 on: Fri, 10 July 2020, 22:55:05 »
Wow this is incredible! I think I'm leaning towards the beige with SA Godspeed (solar alphas with apollo mods and some novs).

Offline Puddsy

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Protos Ordered]
« Reply #38 on: Sat, 11 July 2020, 00:39:15 »
very interested -- this has garnered a lot of interest from my friends (and i think i've talked about it 3 separate times on my stream), i'm just worried about whether or not you have a vendor

the logistics of running a group buy are often greatly overestimated by first time runners, but this is one of the coolest projects i've seen in a while and i'll probably go in for one regardless

also my vote goes to army/forest green for the "wildcard" color, not enough dark color options
« Last Edit: Sat, 11 July 2020, 00:54:31 by Puddsy »
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Offline keebpleeb

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Protos Ordered]
« Reply #39 on: Sat, 11 July 2020, 02:42:02 »
Super unique and can't wait to see the final product! It looks so '70s chic in that beige cw. I'm in for one for sure! Now to decide what caps...

Offline i luv chuletas

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Protos Ordered]
« Reply #40 on: Sat, 11 July 2020, 10:10:10 »
I had already commented on your og reddit post, but this is awesome. Def into a beige boardwalk build.

Only two notes: Would you consider any options to include sound dampeners in the kit (for extra)?

This case design in pure steel would sound be a bit rough without any..

Also, would love a version of this with a thick rotary encoder on right corner opposite to the badge, would be pretty sick!

Offline ISOxSwap

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Protos Ordered]
« Reply #41 on: Sat, 11 July 2020, 10:12:18 »
I think I will take the brushed steel and paint it with Hammerite paint. 🤔

Offline BirgusLatro

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Protos Ordered]
« Reply #42 on: Sat, 11 July 2020, 16:07:12 »
I had already commented on your og reddit post, but this is awesome. Def into a beige boardwalk build.

Only two notes: Would you consider any options to include sound dampeners in the kit (for extra)?

This case design in pure steel would sound be a bit rough without any..

Also, would love a version of this with a thick rotary encoder on right corner opposite to the badge, would be pretty sick!

Thank you for the support!  I agree that plain steel would not be ideal acoustically.  To combat this I have 3 locations planned for sound dampening inside the case, and I am acquiring samples of various materials to try in each location on the protos.

1.    {Between the plate and the case where it mounts}
2.    {On the top case half pushing down on the plate} (foam will be on short sides of the case too)
3.    Between plate and PCB (a la MKUltra)

The badge is actually optional so people can decide where they want to put it (Stainless/Brass backed with 3M industrial adhesive).
« Last Edit: Sat, 11 July 2020, 16:13:59 by BirgusLatro »

Offline Flexmaster

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Protos Ordered]
« Reply #43 on: Wed, 15 July 2020, 03:14:31 »
This looks amazing

Offline Axariel

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Protos Ordered]
« Reply #44 on: Wed, 15 July 2020, 03:54:19 »
In for one! This board looks great, and I could easily see myself using this in the office. Hoping everything goes smoothly.

Offline BirgusLatro

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Protos Ordered]
« Reply #45 on: Wed, 15 July 2020, 17:00:29 »
I think I will take the brushed steel and paint it with Hammerite paint. 🤔

Super unique and can't wait to see the final product! It looks so '70s chic in that beige cw. I'm in for one for sure! Now to decide what caps...

Wow this is incredible! I think I'm leaning towards the beige with SA Godspeed (solar alphas with apollo mods and some novs).

This looks amazing

In for one! This board looks great, and I could easily see myself using this in the office. Hoping everything goes smoothly.

I dig it.

Whoa, so this is the keeb im gonna match with KAM Wraith!  :eek:

Oh yeah, I gotta get me one of these for sure.  :thumb:

Thank you all for your comments showing support!!!

very interested -- this has garnered a lot of interest from my friends (and i think i've talked about it 3 separate times on my stream), i'm just worried about whether or not you have a vendor

the logistics of running a group buy are often greatly overestimated by first time runners, but this is one of the coolest projects i've seen in a while and i'll probably go in for one regardless

also my vote goes to army/forest green for the "wildcard" color, not enough dark color options

Thank you so much for the compliment Puddsy! Had no idea you had talked about it on stream that is awesome, +1 follow from me ... :)
I know the logistics are going to be difficult.  I have been talking to a few of the well-known vendors and they are interested but want to see the new prototypes first. 
I will see what they have to say before making a decision on how exactly to run the GB.  When I know more, I'll share with all.
« Last Edit: Wed, 15 July 2020, 17:03:15 by BirgusLatro »

Offline equalunique

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Protos Ordered]
« Reply #46 on: Thu, 16 July 2020, 08:52:20 »
I'm excited for this. Would love to use a Boardwalk, but since they're not hotswap, there's always a risk that it could get bricked and require hours of desoldering before I recover that special bent steel plate inside. So maybe XD75 would be a safer bet, but not as nice IMO.

Offline FZ

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Protos Ordered]
« Reply #47 on: Thu, 16 July 2020, 08:58:17 »
Can split shift/fn be an option on the ANSI layout?

Offline SxM Designs

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Protos Ordered]
« Reply #48 on: Thu, 16 July 2020, 09:05:27 »
Woah! This is turning into one of the sexiest boards I have ever seen.
I surely hope you can manage a EU vendor. I am quite sure you would have a lot of sales here.

Also, if I want to include a PI, doesnot it need output holes in the back?

Offline BirgusLatro

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Re: [IC] Saturn-60: High-Profile Steel Keyboard [Protos Ordered]
« Reply #49 on: Thu, 16 July 2020, 11:50:00 »
I'm excited for this. Would love to use a Boardwalk, but since they're not hotswap, there's always a risk that it could get bricked and require hours of desoldering before I recover that special bent steel plate inside. So maybe XD75 would be a safer bet, but not as nice IMO.

I am actually working on a product to make de-soldering MX switches easier, but no timeline or details ready to share as of now.

Can split shift/fn be an option on the ANSI layout?

Yes. Both L & R shifts will be able to split

Woah! This is turning into one of the sexiest boards I have ever seen.
I surely hope you can manage a EU vendor. I am quite sure you would have a lot of sales here.

Thank you!  Will definitely keep everyone in the loop.

Also, if I want to include a PI, doesnot it need output holes in the back?

A RasPi won't be "included" but just able to fit inside the case.  I might add some half circle cutouts on the bottom case for cables to pass through the back