XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2

[The_Beast]

That looks really nice! Too bad I'm on the metal cased model F train


Choooo Chooooooooo!

[dorkvader]

Will it work hooked up to the original controller run through a Soarer's convertor?

I think some keys will work and others will be intermittant based on how IBM implemented their design.

[berserkfan]

I very eagerly await a day when you release a matrix layout. No to 7x spacebars! MATRIX LAYOUT FANS, PLEASE SPEAK OUT so that Wcass might decide to create a matrix layout next!

[mougrim]

Looks good. Looks very good, to be honest. Now all I'll be needing is a replacement case, barrels, and hammers with springs 

[vivalarevolución]

That looks really nice! Too bad I'm on the metal cased model F train


Choooo Chooooooooo!

The bottom part of an XT is metal.  Which is why I own one over an AT.

[wcass]

That looks really nice! Too bad I'm on the metal cased model F train


Choooo Chooooooooo!

I have a Kishsaver and I agree completely. But now that we know this technique works, all we need is some folks to design the case and have it milled. You might even see a capacitive SSK or M-15 knock-off. How cool would that be?

[0100010]

Where did the PCB get printed?

[wcass]

Where did the PCB get printed?

PCBWay was the fab, so Hangzhou China

[The_Beast]

Where did the PCB get printed?

PCBWay was the fab, so Hangzhou China

I didn't even notice that custom printed PCB. This is some next level stuff!

[wcass]

And very reasonably priced too. I might be able to keep the "kit" price under $50. The kit would include ...

• matrix PCB
• barrel frame
• barrel pad
• PCB and frame mounting hardware
• 2 or 3 extra barrels and flippers
• 4 new cork feet

It would not include a controller or key caps. There is no cost savings for ordering these two components in bulk, and you get to make the important personalization choices. Either controller should work and key assignments could be anything you want them to be.

[vivalarevolución]

And very reasonably priced too. I might be able to keep the "kit" price under $50. The kit would include ...

• matrix PCB
• barrel frame
• barrel pad
• PCB and frame mounting hardware
• 2 or 3 extra barrels and flippers
• 4 new cork feet

It would not include a controller or key caps. There is no cost savings for ordering these two components in bulk, and you get to make the important personalization choices. Either controller should work and key assignments could be anything you want them to be.

Solid price.  I know there is reason that I bookmarked this topic.

[jacobolus]

And very reasonably priced too. I might be able to keep the "kit" price under $50. The kit would include ...

• matrix PCB
• barrel frame
• barrel pad
• PCB and frame mounting hardware
• 2 or 3 extra barrels and flippers
• 4 new cork feet

It would not include a controller or key caps. There is no cost savings for ordering these two components in bulk, and you get to make the important personalization choices. Either controller should work and key assignments could be anything you want them to be.

What’s the cost like on the PCB and metal plates for one-offs of a custom design (as compared to a group order of some standard design)?

[Techno Trousers]

Wow, this is fantastic. I'd also love to see a group buy for an odd sized arrow and nav keyset from Unicomp, if someone would be kind enough to run it. All of the other keys appear to be standard size, so we can easily buy individually for those.

[berserkfan]

And very reasonably priced too. I might be able to keep the "kit" price under $50. The kit would include ...

• matrix PCB

   

If only a full matrix like a POS board was available! Come on guys; everyone who wants one such speak up![/list]

[mougrim]

And very reasonably priced too. I might be able to keep the "kit" price under $50. The kit would include ...

• matrix PCB

   

If only a full matrix like a POS board was available! Come on guys; everyone who wants one such speak up!

As I said, if someone come up with decent case, POS matrix could be nice...

By the way... This is already almost ready keyboard. And it could be made in a commercial product, much appreciated by community... Maybe you'll talk with Unicomp? Although I doubt they could produce xt-sized case

[jacobolus]

By the way... This is already almost ready keyboard. And it could be made in a commercial product, much appreciated by community... Maybe you'll talk with Unicomp? Although I doubt they could produce xt-sized case

As far as I know Unicomp can’t produce Model F barrels or flippies, they don’t make capsense controllers, they don’t make XT-sized cases, etc.

Basically the only part of this Unicomp is relevant to is the keycaps.

[mougrim]

By the way... This is already almost ready keyboard. And it could be made in a commercial product, much appreciated by community... Maybe you'll talk with Unicomp? Although I doubt they could produce xt-sized case

As far as I know Unicomp can’t produce Model F barrels or flippies, they don’t make capsense controllers, they don’t make XT-sized cases, etc.

Basically the only part of this Unicomp is relevant to is the keycaps.

Yeah, but I doubt it can't be produced at all. Springs-hammers assembly could be easiest... or not. Only question is price, of course...

[The_Beast]

By the way... This is already almost ready keyboard. And it could be made in a commercial product, much appreciated by community... Maybe you'll talk with Unicomp? Although I doubt they could produce xt-sized case

As far as I know Unicomp can’t produce Model F barrels or flippies, they don’t make capsense controllers, they don’t make XT-sized cases, etc.

Basically the only part of this Unicomp is relevant to is the keycaps.

Yeah, but I doubt it can't be produced at all. Springs-hammers assembly could be easiest... or not. Only question is price, of course...

I think the whole point of this project was to use the springs/hammers, barrels, back plate and case from the XT to make this XTant. The only thing custom would be the top plate, PCB and caps.

[berserkfan]

Why would a matrix layout require major changes? We can always keep the two rows on the left, and the rest of the keyboard will be in a matrix grid. No change to casing at all although PCB needs some redesign.

[mougrim]

By the way... This is already almost ready keyboard. And it could be made in a commercial product, much appreciated by community... Maybe you'll talk with Unicomp? Although I doubt they could produce xt-sized case

As far as I know Unicomp can’t produce Model F barrels or flippies, they don’t make capsense controllers, they don’t make XT-sized cases, etc.

Basically the only part of this Unicomp is relevant to is the keycaps.

Yeah, but I doubt it can't be produced at all. Springs-hammers assembly could be easiest... or not. Only question is price, of course...

I think the whole point of this project was to use the springs/hammers, barrels, back plate and case from the XT to make this XTant. The only thing custom would be the top plate, PCB and caps.

I know. IF you have an XT. But... I thought we use Model F from IBM both because of their build quality and bуcause they cant be produced now. But then I saw capsense project and this one. And realized it can - maybe not with ease, but...

[jacobolus]

By the way... This is already almost ready keyboard. And it could be made in a commercial product, much appreciated by community... Maybe you'll talk with Unicomp? Although I doubt they could produce xt-sized case

As far as I know Unicomp can’t produce Model F barrels or flippies, they don’t make capsense controllers, they don’t make XT-sized cases, etc. Basically the only part of this Unicomp is relevant to is the keycaps.

Yeah, but I doubt it can't be produced at all. Springs-hammers assembly could be easiest... or not. Only question is price, of course...

Well sure. If you have the tens of thousands of dollars (or whatever) it costs to pay for tooling, I’m sure we could get someone to make some barrels and flippies. But that doesn’t really have anything to do with Unicomp. I don’t think it’s an investment that will easily pay for itself without a massive amount of advertising, and it would be a hugely risky project. But go for it!

I think the whole point of this project was to use the springs/hammers, barrels, back plate and case from the XT to make this XTant. The only thing custom would be the top plate, PCB and caps.

Yes, everyone understands that. mougrim was talking about a commercial product though. As in, something that can actually be produced and sold at scale, not just frankensteined from a dwindling supply of 30+ year old keyboards.

[berserkfan]

The climate/ social environment is not suitable for that now. But interest in mechanical keyboards is rising so we have a chance in a few years.

[The_Beast]

I think the whole point of this project was to use the springs/hammers, barrels, back plate and case from the XT to make this XTant. The only thing custom would be the top plate, PCB and caps.

Yes, everyone understands that. mougrim was talking about a commercial product though. As in, something that can actually be produced and sold at scale, not just frankensteined from a dwindling supply of 30+ year old keyboards.

I doubt that this will ever be a commercial project. People seem not to want older model F's, they seem to pick cherry or topre.

I know. IF you have an XT. But... I thought we use Model F from IBM both because of their build quality and bуcause they cant be produced now. But then I saw capsense project and this one. And realized it can - maybe not with ease, but...

XT's are easily available for a pretty reasonable price (I wouldn't pay over $50 for one and I really like model Fs)

[mougrim]

The climate/ social environment is not suitable for that now. But interest in mechanical keyboards is rising so we have a chance in a few years.

That what I thought after I wrote that last post...

And I'm not criticizing wcass is doing great job, which I deeply appreciate... And I'll try to get old XT keyboard before he's begin producing his kits

But go into keyboard business... tempting. Doubt I could do it by myself, and not in my country, but interest in mechanical boards sure is risng. I'll try to save some money by now...

P.S. Unicomp advertising and marketing don't worth a sh1t. There hardly any advertising at oll. They could sell more - if they, for example, advertised them as "only keyboards REALLY meant for typing". They could sell them through ebay and amazon...   

[mougrim]

I think the whole point of this project was to use the springs/hammers, barrels, back plate and case from the XT to make this XTant. The only thing custom would be the top plate, PCB and caps.

Yes, everyone understands that. mougrim was talking about a commercial product though. As in, something that can actually be produced and sold at scale, not just frankensteined from a dwindling supply of 30+ year old keyboards.

I doubt that this will ever be a commercial project. People seem not to want older model F's, they seem to pick cherry or topre.

Yeah, because most cherry and topre boards are new. I think number of old cherry boards and old Model F boards maniacs are comparable Oh, and there a lot less trouble with old cherry boards (most of them). There a lot of companies producing cherry-boards, cherry-clone-boards and so on. And advertising them. But BS boards are produced only by Unicomp. Company, known only amongst us, geeks. Period.

It can be different. Look what done Matias with Alps switches boards.

Customers just can't choose brand-new Model F in nice case, because there ain't any

[The_Beast]

I think the whole point of this project was to use the springs/hammers, barrels, back plate and case from the XT to make this XTant. The only thing custom would be the top plate, PCB and caps.

Yes, everyone understands that. mougrim was talking about a commercial product though. As in, something that can actually be produced and sold at scale, not just frankensteined from a dwindling supply of 30+ year old keyboards.

I doubt that this will ever be a commercial project. People seem not to want older model F's, they seem to pick cherry or topre.

Yeah, because most cherry and topre boards are new. I think number of old cherry boards and old Model F boards maniacs are comparable Oh, and there a lot less trouble with old cherry boards (most of them). There a lot of companies producing cherry-boards, cherry-clone-boards and so on. And advertising them. But BS boards are produced only by Unicomp. Company, known only amongst us, geeks. Period.

It can be different. Look what done Matias with Alps switches boards.

Customers just can't choose brand-new Model F in nice case, because there ain't any

Maybe there aren't any because people don't want them.

chicken egg kinda thing, but I really doubt there is a market for a new model F even with this new XTant layout (which isn't totally off the wall but still larger than comparable TKLs  both in width and length)

Look at how long unicomp has sat on their hands for a "new" SSK, which seems to be a very popular layout/switch type (not that unicomp is a very active company in terms of bringing out new models). They have gotten feedback that it's wanted, but still not enough to actually mass produce it.

[jacobolus]

Look at how long unicomp has sat on their hands for a "new" SSK, which seems to be a very popular layout/switch type (not that unicomp is a very active company in terms of bringing out new models). They have gotten feedback that it's wanted, but still not enough to actually mass produce it.

I don’t what Unicomp does can be taken as evidence of anything.

Their only new products in the last few years are:
(1) switching to 1.5/1/1.5/5.75/1.25/1.5/1/1.5 bottom row instead of their previous 1.5/1.25/1.25/5.75/1.25/1.25/1.5 bottom row [I think I have those numbers right. I didn’t look too carefully.]
(2) this:

(3) “Fight Like a Girl!”

[mougrim]

Look at how long unicomp has sat on their hands for a "new" SSK, which seems to be a very popular layout/switch type (not that unicomp is a very active company in terms of bringing out new models). They have gotten feedback that it's wanted, but still not enough to actually mass produce it.

I don’t what Unicomp does can be taken as evidence of anything.

Their only new products in the last few years are:
(1) switching to 1.5/1/1.5/5.75/1.25/1.5/1/1.5 bottom row instead of their previous 1.5/1.25/1.25/5.75/1.25/1.25/1.5 bottom row
(2) this:

As I said, they nice people when they actually producing something, but totally inept in marketing. Horrible websine, little to no advertising, etc, etc...

[0100010]

Would suggest to have the plate cut to support both XT and F barrels.  Also, can you share the cutout dimensions and spacing?

[wcass]

What’s the cost like on the PCB and metal plates for one-offs of a custom design (as compared to a group order of some standard design)?

Both the PCB and top plate have high setup costs. The top plate is similar to a Cherry/Alps plate. The PCB is a lot simpler than the Cherry/Alps equivalent; no vias, just 31 plated through holes, two unplated mount holes. Still, the lowest quote I got for a single PCB was > $100. I ordered 10 of the PCB because the price difference between 1 and 10 was so little.

With that said, all you need is to get about 10 folks to invest in a specific design to make it cost effective to produce.

[dorkvader]

XT's are easily available for a pretty reasonable price (I wouldn't pay over $50 for one and I really like model Fs)

There are only a finite number of these left in the world. Eventually we will need to produce new parts if we want to keep making "new" model Fs.

The XTant is a very important first step

[wcass]

Would suggest to have the plate cut to support both XT and F barrels.  Also, can you share the cutout dimensions and spacing?

I will release gerbers and DXF of everything (including support for both barrels) here soon. The capacitive pad designs are 35 years old and I would consider anything I have added to this as CC0 (public domain, no rights reserved).

[mougrim]

XT's are easily available for a pretty reasonable price (I wouldn't pay over $50 for one and I really like model Fs)

There are only a finite number of these left in the world. Eventually we will need to produce new parts if we want to keep making "new" model Fs.

The XTant is a very important first step

Exactly! Very importans - as it shows to us there are no magic in capacitive technology

[berserkfan]

Those who would like a matrix layout (with 2 rows on the left side) do shout out here! I'm in for 2 sets, so still need 8 more as well as people who can do the CAD thinggy and PCB design thinggy.

[JPG]

My budget can't take anything keyboard related for now, but damn this is interesting!

[REVENGE]

Here's a layout that wcass and I agree upon for an 80% board: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/4c68c970e538c4301e5cc9f45fd75154

As it so happens, I was planning a similar layout for my next project. We are limited to the key cap shapes that Unicomp has - that 1.75 right shift will be stepped like a caps lock - but that is a good thing in that it creates a tactile buffer between the shift and up arrow. I liked that so much that i put a 1.75 Ctrl to the left of left arrow - this really sets the arrow cluster apart and easy to find without looking. Backspace can be split. ANSI or ISO Enter and left shift are supported and user selectable. The controllers are fully programmable, so the users can move caps around (like swap Caps Lock with right Ctrl).

Just need someone to design the case. Any volunteers?

[dorkvader]

Here's a layout that wcass and I agree upon for an 80% board: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/4c68c970e538c4301e5cc9f45fd75154

As it so happens, I was planning a similar layout for my next project. We are limited to the key cap shapes that Unicomp has - that 1.75 right shift will be stepped like a caps lock - but that is a good thing in that it creates a tactile buffer between the shift and up arrow. I liked that so much that i put a 1.75 Ctrl to the left of left arrow - this really sets the arrow cluster apart and easy to find without looking. Backspace can be split. ANSI or ISO Enter and left shift are supported and user selectable. The controllers are fully programmable, so the users can move caps around (like swap Caps Lock with right Ctrl).

Just need someone to design the case. Any volunteers?

I really like the use of stepped keys around the arrows, but that looks more like a 75% to me. I've not been a huge fan of 75% but as far as 75% goes it's better than most I know of.

I want to see a 101 key version. Standard and boring maybe but the case is already made. Just need to get a supply on more barrels / flippies (or design new flippies to also work in an M barrel).

[jacobolus]

Here's a layout that wcass and I agree upon for an 80% board: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/4c68c970e538c4301e5cc9f45fd75154

If you’re going to have F keys at all you should put some space between them and the numbers, and some space between groups (1/4u extra is enough). Otherwise it’s pretty much impossible to avoid errors.

But really, these layouts are pretty silly in an age with custom firmware and arbitrary layers.

If you’re set on including all those keys, I recommend:

[REVENGE]

If you’re going to have F keys at all you should put some space between them and the numbers, and some space between groups (1/4u extra is enough). Otherwise it’s pretty much impossible to avoid errors.

I find the spacing on standard 101s between the F and number keys more irritating than helpful. It's useful for gaming to have the F keys directly above the number keys, I don't find accuracy to be much of an issue.

[jacobolus]

I find the spacing on standard 101s between the F and number keys more irritating than helpful. It's useful for gaming to have the F keys directly above the number keys, I don't find accuracy to be much of an issue.

I don’t play video games, but you’re planning to play games with a Model F? Seems like you’d get better results with a different switch. (If you want a clicky switch, I recommend Alps plate spring.)

A standard 101 key had a lot of space so you could put little custom cardboard labels under the keys. But a little bit of space (1/4 or 1/2u) is definitely helpful.

[dorkvader]

(If you want a clicky switch, I recommend Alps plate spring.)

Plate spring? Like 5576-002's are common.

Model F is a lot cheaper than plate spring and significantly easier to get, especially in the USA. I've gamed on model F and it's not bad, depending on the game you're playing. DFJ has an oscilloscope picture of him performing a "flick" or rapid actuation of a model F in something like 1ms. Such things take practice, but are possible. You can game on a model F and razer switches will not make you better.

I like your layout though. I am thinking about some possible changes to allow the use of the XT case and keys and still be "modern". Hmm.

[JPG]

I find the spacing on standard 101s between the F and number keys more irritating than helpful. It's useful for gaming to have the F keys directly above the number keys, I don't find accuracy to be much of an issue.

I don’t play video games, but you’re planning to play games with a Model F? Seems like you’d get better results with a different switch. (If you want a clicky switch, I recommend Alps plate spring.)

A standard 101 key had a lot of space so you could put little custom cardboard labels under the keys. But a little bit of space (1/4 or 1/2u) is definitely helpful.

I game on my model F, it's nice. F122 for now!

[wcass]

I don't use F keys very much, but i know that many people do. I would prefer a 65% myself with a split space bar (using blank shift caps; left used as backspace). A copy or homage of the M-15 would be nice too. 

[REVENGE]

I find the spacing on standard 101s between the F and number keys more irritating than helpful. It's useful for gaming to have the F keys directly above the number keys, I don't find accuracy to be much of an issue.

I don’t play video games, but you’re planning to play games with a Model F? Seems like you’d get better results with a different switch. (If you want a clicky switch, I recommend Alps plate spring.)

A standard 101 key had a lot of space so you could put little custom cardboard labels under the keys. But a little bit of space (1/4 or 1/2u) is definitely helpful.

I game on my model F, it's nice. F122 for now!

I prefer to game on MX Reds, but I don't always keep two keyboards connected.

I don't use F keys very much, but i know that many people do. I would prefer a 65% myself with a split space bar (using blank shift caps; left used as backspace). A copy or homage of the M-15 would be nice too. 

FWIW, it's probably easier to get going on a 60% layout first, I'm sure there would be tons of support for it.

EDIT: Here's a potential 60% layout: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6d394ac7c0bb34af017ce9e41e623e7d

[dorkvader]

I don't use F keys very much, but i know that many people do. I would prefer a 65% myself with a split space bar (using blank shift caps; left used as backspace). A copy or homage of the M-15 would be nice too.

Get some "code" keys from wheelwriters. They're convex so they make great keycaps for split spacebars.

[mougrim]

Here's a layout that wcass and I agree upon for an 80% board: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/4c68c970e538c4301e5cc9f45fd75154

As it so happens, I was planning a similar layout for my next project. We are limited to the key cap shapes that Unicomp has - that 1.75 right shift will be stepped like a caps lock - but that is a good thing in that it creates a tactile buffer between the shift and up arrow. I liked that so much that i put a 1.75 Ctrl to the left of left arrow - this really sets the arrow cluster apart and easy to find without looking. Backspace can be split. ANSI or ISO Enter and left shift are supported and user selectable. The controllers are fully programmable, so the users can move caps around (like swap Caps Lock with right Ctrl).

Just need someone to design the case. Any volunteers?

I like this layout. All buttons I need in nice package.

[mougrim]

I find the spacing on standard 101s between the F and number keys more irritating than helpful. It's useful for gaming to have the F keys directly above the number keys, I don't find accuracy to be much of an issue.

I don’t play video games, but you’re planning to play games with a Model F? Seems like you’d get better results with a different switch. (If you want a clicky switch, I recommend Alps plate spring.)

A standard 101 key had a lot of space so you could put little custom cardboard labels under the keys. But a little bit of space (1/4 or 1/2u) is definitely helpful.

I play video games with my F. And like it a lot better than Cherry Although it can get a little noisy :

[berserkfan]

I find the spacing on standard 101s between the F and number keys more irritating than helpful. It's useful for gaming to have the F keys directly above the number keys, I don't find accuracy to be much of an issue.

I don’t play video games, but you’re planning to play games with a Model F? Seems like you’d get better results with a different switch. (If you want a clicky switch, I recommend Alps plate spring.)

A standard 101 key had a lot of space so you could put little custom cardboard labels under the keys. But a little bit of space (1/4 or 1/2u) is definitely helpful.

I play video games with my F. And like it a lot better than Cherry Although it can get a little noisy :

I'm just happy that you're alive. Have you been forced to flee home yet? The news looks more and more grim (I know, bad pun on your name) and at this point even I am believing the Western propaganda about how Russia has turned your home region into hell. The Economist calls it Somalia.

[JPG]

I find the spacing on standard 101s between the F and number keys more irritating than helpful. It's useful for gaming to have the F keys directly above the number keys, I don't find accuracy to be much of an issue.

I don’t play video games, but you’re planning to play games with a Model F? Seems like you’d get better results with a different switch. (If you want a clicky switch, I recommend Alps plate spring.)

A standard 101 key had a lot of space so you could put little custom cardboard labels under the keys. But a little bit of space (1/4 or 1/2u) is definitely helpful.

I game on my model F, it's nice. F122 for now!

I prefer to game on MX Reds, but I don't always keep two keyboards connected.

I don't use F keys very much, but i know that many people do. I would prefer a 65% myself with a split space bar (using blank shift caps; left used as backspace). A copy or homage of the M-15 would be nice too. 

FWIW, it's probably easier to get going on a 60% layout first, I'm sure there would be tons of support for it.

EDIT: Here's a potential 60% layout: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6d394ac7c0bb34af017ce9e41e623e7d

I would be happy with a 60% too. But the layout I prefer is something more similar to a stock F122 (for the 60% part) except maybe for the enter key that could be ansi. But I really prefer that it's winkeyless. It really makes the keyboard looks less like a big compact block. Also, I prefer to use capslock as a function key and with a second layer I have WAY enough keys for whatever I use. Well anyway, as with any keyboard, let's start a layout war! 

EDIT: In fact, after thinking about it, the best layout for a very popular model F would simply be the layout of the SSK as is. Simply amazing. Not saying a 60% like it would not be nice, but I think that the SSK layout is a more logic option.

[mougrim]

I find the spacing on standard 101s between the F and number keys more irritating than helpful. It's useful for gaming to have the F keys directly above the number keys, I don't find accuracy to be much of an issue.

I don’t play video games, but you’re planning to play games with a Model F? Seems like you’d get better results with a different switch. (If you want a clicky switch, I recommend Alps plate spring.)

A standard 101 key had a lot of space so you could put little custom cardboard labels under the keys. But a little bit of space (1/4 or 1/2u) is definitely helpful.

I play video games with my F. And like it a lot better than Cherry Although it can get a little noisy :

I'm just happy that you're alive. Have you been forced to flee home yet? The news looks more and more grim (I know, bad pun on your name) and at this point even I am believing the Western propaganda about how Russia has turned your home region into hell. The Economist calls it Somalia.

I'm moved to the capital. Because, yes. Not Somalia, but it'll be second Abhazia. Or Pridnestrov'ye. I just don't want to live under rule of some petty warlord with his henchmen. And, generally, Russia made all of us more pro-western than USA ever could