Filco Majestouch-2 Cherry MX Red First Impressions

[majestouch]

From an FPS standpoint, there probably is no advantage strictly based on whether you use a rubber dome or a mechanical switch.
What matters is:
1. Key Rollover: 5 or higher is probably fine for an FPS
2. Desk space: 10keyless or smaller
3. Feel/comfort: something you are happy with
4. Keystroke consistency

My initial post in this thread concerns the merits of one mechanical switch over another for gaining an advantage in a particular type of game. 1-4 above are preferences you and many others require as basic, but these are standard features of many mech boards...and perhaps these points illustrate what it takes to go from 0-95% skilled, but I specifically made an example of the last 5% it takes for perfection; when 0.1mm causes a failure of 1 in 20 keystrokes. What separates the men from the boys? Luck? Why spend hours, days, and weeks of your life pushing pixels around the screen if the outcome is random?

...because you asked people not to "repeat their "gamers just bottom-out" mantra, but I think most, if not all, FPS players bottom out....

But with mechanicals you don't need to bottom-out. Master the tool and you *could* have an edge on your opponent. People are constantly finding new ways to get an edge - some people already have. I'm not selling you anything here, there are real differences between how these switches work. You can be a jaded pro-gamer if it pleases your ego, but as my wise old junior-high PE teacher once told me, "there is no standing still in life, you're either getting ahead, or you're falling behind"

Regarding Linear vs Tactile switches in games:
Whether a switch is audible or not is irrelevant as hard core and pro gamers are using headphones and listening to in game sounds, not their keyboards. Muscle memory knows the amount of distance required to activate whatever switch type they are using.  Most users will probably bottom out, but whether they do nor not is irrelevant, as, so long as your muscles have memorized where that activation point is, the hypothetically finer precision in the exact point of activation of a linear vs a tactile switch becomes irrelevant.  It's simply a matter of whether you are consistently able to activate it in a repeatable and predictable fashion or not.  This is my experience with FPS games.

Your muscle memory is imperfect; moreso as you tire and become stressed or distracted. The example I gave about 1 in 20 keypresses is very much a possibility. Gradually increasing resistance aside, linear switches feel the same all-the-way-down, so the less accurate your muscle memory is, the more work your eyes need to do confirming your actions. If you still disagree that this can have no bearing in any game at any point in time then I'm rather confused as to why you're even asking for me to elaborate as you've already made up your mind!

[keyboardlover]

Majestouch, where are the cherry red Leopolds?

[noodles256]

I like cherry reds

[kazie]

I have been lurking for quite a while in these boards, and recently ordered a board with Cherry Reds.  I do a lot of gaming like a lot of the previous posters do, and made my decision on a board...not based on theory.

I have been reading the opinions of various people on what they believe is the best or ideal switch for any one particular genre, and although there are a multitude of very in depth and technical posts being presented, it seems that some don't realize that two different arguments can actually co-exist and be correct in their own environments.

For anyone trying to find an ideal, in all honesty, you have to try it first. I see how this can be difficult based on availability or funds, but the fact is that from personal preference, to physics, to your own reflexes, different boards are going to work for different people.  IMO, no one particular switch is better than others as long as you find what fits you best based on what you are capable of doing.

Gaming, at a competitive level, is reactive. Reactions are not always going to be controlled. This is a fact not based on opinion or theory, its simply based on the varying speeds in which a person has to react.  Earlier someone mentioned that all FPS players bottom out, with arguments that perhaps that shouldn't be necessary if you mastered your tool. FPS, RTS or otherwise, bottoming out can and will happen depending on the circumstances in which you are performing X action. No person, short of being a robot, can ever be 100 percent controlled or 100 percent twitchy, its always a mixture of both based on experience, ergonomics, and situational awareness.  The day we stop being a chemical machine is the day we can train ourselves to be 100% accurate in anything.

All that said, the following is simply my opinion based on what my fingers told me:

MX Blue: Its lovely to type on because its interactive. The clickiness however, wears off after a while when you get used to it and eventually want the option of quiet.

MX Brown: Popular for a reason, its like its the switch for indecisive people since it gives you the best of both worlds. A bit of tactility and noise when you type, and the feeling that you triggered something when you game. Its actually the first switch I ever tried on a mechanical (not counting buckling spring when i was little) and I still like it.

MX Black: I dont have bear paws, and my grip can't turn coal into diamonds, so I do experience fatigue when using these. Not my favorite. If you have tiger claws though, I can see why these wouldnt be an issue. A friend of mine has bony fingers and he loves his black switches.

MX Reds: Just right for me, because I game more than I type and from what I have tested, they really are not so light that touching them will cause them to actuate.

Have not tried anything else.
Blues @ work, Browns @ home (soon to be replaced by a Majestouch-2 Cherry Red tomorrow)  <--- excited

[noodles256]

I have been lurking for quite a while in these boards, and recently ordered a board with Cherry Reds.  I do a lot of gaming like a lot of the previous posters do, and made my decision on a board...not based on theory.

I have been reading the opinions of various people on what they believe is the best or ideal switch for any one particular genre, and although there are a multitude of very in depth and technical posts being presented, it seems that some don't realize that two different arguments can actually co-exist and be correct in their own environments.

For anyone trying to find an ideal, in all honesty, you have to try it first. I see how this can be difficult based on availability or funds, but the fact is that from personal preference, to physics, to your own reflexes, different boards are going to work for different people.  IMO, no one particular switch is better than others as long as you find what fits you best based on what you are capable of doing.

Gaming, at a competitive level, is reactive. Reactions are not always going to be controlled. This is a fact not based on opinion or theory, its simply based on the varying speeds in which a person has to react.  Earlier someone mentioned that all FPS players bottom out, with arguments that perhaps that shouldn't be necessary if you mastered your tool. FPS, RTS or otherwise, bottoming out can and will happen depending on the circumstances in which you are performing X action. No person, short of being a robot, can ever be 100 percent controlled or 100 percent twitchy, its always a mixture of both based on experience, ergonomics, and situational awareness.  The day we stop being a chemical machine is the day we can train ourselves to be 100% accurate in anything.

All that said, the following is simply my opinion based on what my fingers told me:

MX Blue: Its lovely to type on because its interactive. The clickiness however, wears off after a while when you get used to it and eventually want the option of quiet.

MX Brown: Popular for a reason, its like its the switch for indecisive people since it gives you the best of both worlds. A bit of tactility and noise when you type, and the feeling that you triggered something when you game. Its actually the first switch I ever tried on a mechanical (not counting buckling spring when i was little) and I still like it.

MX Black: I dont have bear paws, and my grip can't turn coal into diamonds, so I do experience fatigue when using these. Not my favorite. If you have tiger claws though, I can see why these wouldnt be an issue. A friend of mine has bony fingers and he loves his black switches.

MX Reds: Just right for me, because I game more than I type and from what I have tested, they really are not so light that touching them will cause them to actuate.

Have not tried anything else.
Blues @ work, Browns @ home (soon to be replaced by a Majestouch-2 Cherry Red tomorrow)  <--- excited

the 1st post to rule them all.

[Shuki]

Yeah, he's pretty much right. Each to his own.

[digitalleftovers]

Diatec has a white version with reds (US ASCII) listed on their site now.  No pictures yet.  Just thought I would mention it in case anyone was holding out for a white version.

Majestouch Linear R Limited Edition [RedSwitch/Tenkeyless/US ASCII/White]

[.XL]

diatec has a white version with reds (us ascii) listed on their site now.  No pictures yet.  Just thought i would mention it in case anyone was holding out for a white version.

majestouch linear r limited edition [redswitch/tenkeyless/us ascii/white]

damn you for posting this

[pm_]

My initial post in this thread concerns the merits of one mechanical switch over another for gaining an advantage in a particular type of game. 1-4 above are preferences you and many others require as basic, but these are standard features of many mech boards...and perhaps these points illustrate what it takes to go from 0-95% skilled, but I specifically made an example of the last 5% it takes for perfection; when 0.1mm causes a failure of 1 in 20 keystrokes.

I don't think this is true.  Even though you are giving an example, I don't have keystroke failure issues on any decent board, and I hardly think I'm unique in this respect.  I may hit the wrong key once in a 4 hour session, which is 90% likely it would be my index finger hitting E instead of 3 (middle finger is using W for +forward); the odds of this happening are more likely than my having a keystroke failure.

But with mechanicals you don't need to bottom-out. Master the tool and you *could* have an edge on your opponent. People are constantly finding new ways to get an edge - some people already have. I'm not selling you anything here, there are real differences between how these switches work. You can be a jaded pro-gamer if it pleases your ego, but as my wise old junior-high PE teacher once told me, "there is no standing still in life, you're either getting ahead, or you're falling behind"

There's a lot of good, fungible equipment out here.  What makes the difference is having good equipment, regardless of what it is, a good config that works for you, and the intelligence, experience, and coordination to execute properly in the situations that demand it.  Most people that don't make it fail on the last item, not on the first two. If you can't execute more keystrokes in a minute on one switch or another by bottoming out vs not, then it's simply irrelevant.

Your muscle memory is imperfect; moreso as you tire and become stressed or distracted. The example I gave about 1 in 20 keypresses is very much a possibility. Gradually increasing resistance aside, linear switches feel the same all-the-way-down, so the less accurate your muscle memory is, the more work your eyes need to do confirming your actions.

Muscle fatigue could be an issue, more so if you use heavier switches, but I think mental and visual fatigue usually tend to come into play first.  Personally, visual tracking of opponents and mental execution of commands, start to mentally lag a little bit and response times go down; the muscle reaction is still fine at this point, you're just starting to mentally lag in sending that signal.

If you still disagree that this can have no bearing in any game at any point in time then I'm rather confused as to why you're even asking for me to elaborate as you've already made up your mind!

I asked you to elaborate because I disagree with your statement about linear switches being superior for FPS gaming and wanted you to offer some support for that statement.  I also wanted to know if there was a very minute but measurable performance difference in the number of key presses you could achieve over a period of time when comparing linear and non-linear switches; a minute difference likely wouldn't have an impact in an FPS game, but if it affected, say, peak APM by a small margin, it could be an advantage in RTS games.  Looks like that's not the case.

[manfaux]

** I.E. move to a part of a starcraft map, toss out 20 keystrokes worth of commands, and move to the next part of the map with confidence that all 20 keystrokes were sent - if you had used linear switches and were in a hurry, you might have pressed 1 of 20 switches just .1mm shy of the point of actuation and you would not know it. Doh!

True, but again, it's all personal preferences. I spam every command when playing SC and bottom out hard, never had any problems with not reaching the point of actuation, not even on my old steelseries blacks. Think about all the rubber domes, they have no tactility whatsoever, pros do just fine.

[RiGS]

Rubber domes have a serious tactility.

[manfaux]

Rubber domes have a serious tactility.

you might be right, I'm not in the best position to talk about rubber domes since I haven't typed on one in years, I tend to remember them as being duller versions of cherry browns.

The only non mechanical I own is a wireless apple keyboard which I believe is just scissors - no tactility, I play starcraft on it sometimes and it's totally acceptable.

[manfaux]

Scissors even MORE.  From the new "All About Scissor Switch Wiki".

Show Image

These diagrams don't tell anything, why bother showing them. Scissors technically are tactile, but it's not the same thing as what you'll find in buckling spring or Cherry MXs obviously -  everyone who has a laptop knows this, it's a digital feel, 1 or 0, nothing in between, you either press the key hard enough to actuate it, or the key doesn't move at all.

[pm_]

These diagrams don't tell anything, why bother showing them. Scissors technically are tactile, but it's not the same thing as what you'll find in buckling spring or Cherry MXs obviously -  everyone who has a laptop knows this, it's a digital feel, 1 or 0, nothing in between, you either press the key hard enough to actuate it, or the key doesn't move at all.

Not including touch interfaces, as far as I know switches are either linear or tactile.  If it's linear, there is a constant increase in force as you push the switch down.  If it's tactile, there's a a change in the amount of force required, which can be felt as a bump.  That diagram clearly shows the change in force that results in a "bump" that can be felt, and thus a tactile switch.  They also indicate force required.  I consider them very relevant.

[manfaux]

Not including touch interfaces, as far as I know switches are either linear or tactile.  If it's linear, there is a constant increase in force as you push the switch down.  If it's tactile, there's a a change in the amount of force required, which can be felt as a bump.  That diagram clearly shows the change in force that results in a "bump" that can be felt, and thus a tactile switch.  They also indicate force required.  I consider them very relevant.

where is the bump for scissors? there is none.

[manfaux]

The diagrams don't lie and are especially relevant in a Linear Red MX switch thread.  What this chart leaves out is that obnoxious final spike as you bottom out a Cherry Red (which you WILL do).

Show Image

the bottoming spike is there for every plate-mounted switch if you type like me!

[SpatiallyAware]

you might be right, I'm not in the best position to talk about rubber domes since I haven't typed on one in years, I tend to remember them as being duller versions of cherry browns.

The only non mechanical I own is a wireless apple keyboard which I believe is just scissors - no tactility, I play starcraft on it sometimes and it's totally acceptable.

HTF have you literally gone YEARS without typing on a rubber dome?  I call shens, unless you're one of those people that never leave your house.

Wait.. you play starcraft?  Ok this changes things

[noodles256]

HTF have you literally gone YEARS without typing on a rubber dome?  I call shens, unless you're one of those people that never leave your house.

Wait.. you play starcraft?  Ok this changes things

Yea, I have to type on a rubber dome when I code=/

[tickt0ck]

If you want one, better get to stepping, only 5 left on Amazon.

[noodles256]

Just ordered 1 from Amazon.  I already have one that has been shipped by the keyboard co from england, but who knows when it will get here.  It shows being turned over to the USPS a week ago, and yet USPS still has it as "being prepared for shipment."  Whatever, I'll have 2

You should message lpb45, He is loooking for cherry reds and is willing to pay buying price for it.

[Exoverture]

This looks quite interesting.

I might try them out when a cheaper alternative hits Canada.

[keyboardlover]

I'm basically f***ed for the rest of my Geekhack career.

[keyboardlover]

When I'm singled out by a troll, yes.
Most people do.

[hcry4]

1 left. Impulse buy for me... Who got the other 2?

[Lpb45]

hopefully someone won't like theirs, lol.

[panda-R]

I admit, I am #3 only because ripster did it. He's my secret hero.

[hcry4]

I guess it's not a secret anymore.

[Skylit]

Someone needs to buy the last one before I get tempted.

I really want the newer white version when/if it becomes available.

[stereotada]

Someone needs buy the last one before I get tempted.

I really want the newer white version when/if it becomes available.

dont worry, i just bought it.

[panda-R]

way to ruin it noobcake!

[hcry4]

I enjoy getting the last item. You feel special up until the moment they restock not 24 hours later.

[Vittra]

I would have impulse bought one if those Amazon wretches would ship north of the border!

...in a way, they've done me a favour.

[hcry4]

Definitely no class here...

[panda-R]

I was talking to Comrade Panda - he has no class either.

I am double glad it was US Only.  Having Canadians own one would definitely make me feel less leet.

Long live brother stalin!

[kazie]

I just got back from FEDEX and picked mine up. Its sitting in my car, whispering to me..., 3 more hours till I go home.  I would chance opening it at work but then people will want to use their unwashed hands and grubby pizza fingers on it, and Im anal about keyboard clealiness.

Plus I have to be the one to break it in before my gf tries to ninja it while i sleep after she types on it.

BTW, i was #19 when there were 20 left on amazon.  I think all the buyers are from these forums lol. Amazon should give us a discount or something

[digitalleftovers]

Long live brother stalin!

BEAR Power!

[panda-R]

I would have impulse bought one if those Amazon wretches would ship north of the border!

...in a way, they've done me a favour.

thats just a weak excuse. I live in Transnistria where I am free to practice my religion and I was able to purchase one off Amazon.

[noodles256]

wow, I didn't think they would sell out

[thirdkind]

Hey everyone, first post for me. I purchased two of the Filcos on Amazon the other day based on the comments in this thread. They came in today and I thought I'd register so I could share my thoughts on the Reds so far.

To give you some idea of my keyboard experience and preferences, some of the keyboards I own or have owned include:

- Northgate OmniKey - My first mechanical. Built like a battle axe, kind of hated it. Turned me off to mechanical for a while.
- Several IBM rubber dome keyboards - I bought a pile of these at the time because they were actually pretty well-built and I liked the feel.
- Apple pre-aluminum white - Came with my PowerMac G5 (and again with the Mac Pro that followed it). Pretty, but mushy with a somewhat hard finish. Caught my fingers a lot on the "sharp" keycaps.
- Apple aluminum - Tried both the full size and compact. Don't like the flat keys because I lose my position a lot.
- Das Keyboard Ultimate - Cherry MX Blue, blank keycaps. My current keyboard.

I learned to touch type QWERTY in high school, but switched to Dvorak 11 years ago. I'm not the fastest typist in the world, maybe 80 wpm, same as I was with QWERTY. I'm a web developer by trade and rarely need to type at very high speed these days, so I've slowed down a bit over the years.

I use the DK both at work and at home, having picked up two of them when they were on sale last year. I had lots of fun with it at first; the tactile feedback and the audible click are very satisfying. It's put together nicely and everyone who sees it for the first time comments on it. They usually comment again after hearing me type on it However, I have a pretty light touch, and I find that I miss a lot of keystrokes--particularly with my pinkies--because I'm tapping the keys with too little force. Striking harder leaves my fingers fatigued after long coding sessions. The clicking also disturbs my coworkers, so I set out to find a keyboard that was quieter and better suited to my style of typing.

First impression of the Filco out of the box…damn solid keyboard. Good weight and very high-grade plastic with a nice velvety feel. Everything about the fit and finish exudes quality. The understated look is pretty striking. I like the clean font used for the keycap labels; it almost makes me sad that I've already bought replacement blank keycaps. I love the minimal bezel and lack of number pad. My desk feels a lot more open, and when not in use, this keyboard doesn't get in the way. After I set it up, one of my coworkers remarked that it was the best looking non-Apple keyboard he's ever seen. He's a UX professional who appreciates minimalism and form following function, as I do.

Having never used a keyboard with linear switches, I pressed a few of the keys lightly to test the action. One word: smooth. I typed a few e-mails, bottoming out quite a bit after typing for 6 months on the Das. It took a bit of practice to get used to these Reds, but I love how my fingers can just glide over the keys. I barely have to touch them. Obviously, it's much quieter than the Das, and if I listen carefully, I can hear the slight whoosh and whistle of the keys as they slide up and down. It's a pleasing sound. If I try to type too fast, I bottom out the keys and it gets noisy, but if I maintain a steady pace and don't think about it too much, typing feels quick and effortless. I still tap the bottom frequently, but only very lightly. I'm sure with practice I'll get better.

There are some features missing that I would've liked to see at this price, such as a detachable USB cable and a USB hub. However, the overall package is so refined and of such high quality that these things are forgotten whenever I start typing.

To sum up, I think I finally may have found the keyboard I've been looking for all these years. I'm still tempted to give the Blacks a try just to see if I like those better, but my expectation is that I'll find the higher resistance more fatiguing. I'll probably try one anyway though just to be sure.

Thanks for this great resource, everyone. I learned a lot after only a few hours of reading thanks to your great guides and informative topics, and I'm very happy with my purchase.

Time to obsess over a new mouse.

[keyboardlover]

Glad to hear you like it! Welcome to GeekHack!

[.XL]

@thirdkind - would you say it's as nice as typing on clouds of boobs?

[thirdkind]

@thirdkind - would you say it's as nice as typing on clouds of boobs?

Well, on the few occasions in my life during which I had access to clouds of boobs, I wasn't concerned with typing, so I can't really say for sure.

Probably.

[noodles256]

Well, on the few occasions in my life during which I had access to clouds of boobs, I wasn't concerned with typing, so I can't really say for sure.

Probably.

+1

[zerosxl]

well, so this was my first mechanical keyboard. upgraded from a razer arctosa. at first i hated it. felt strange to press the key down so far. also threw me off that the key registers half way down the keystroke, but after like 3 days of gaming im starting to appreciate it more. I still think I need a palm rest cuz it feels really uncomfortable at times. the keys also felt smaller than a standard keyboard, but i adjusted to that as well. all in all good board

[zerosxl]

another thing the rubber soles on the bottom are uneven so i had to add a layer of tape on one of the rubber soles to stop the wobbling -_- any other fixes for this issue?

[zerosxl]

oh sorry for multi-posting, but its probably because im not too good of a typist and i pretty much always bottom out my keys, but these keys are really fricken loud... my roommate woke up once and I felt really bad. the spacebar in particular is very loud *slow touch typing into progress.

[noodles256]

oh sorry for multi-posting, but its probably because im not too good of a typist and i pretty much always bottom out my keys, but these keys are really fricken loud... my roommate woke up once and I felt really bad. the spacebar in particular is very loud *slow touch typing into progress.

You must be bottoming out pretty hard for it to bother your roommate. I type pretty loud and it doesn't bother my g/f at all.

[Parallaxis]

another thing the rubber soles on the bottom are uneven so i had to add a layer of tape on one of the rubber soles to stop the wobbling -_- any other fixes for this issue?

If the keyboard wobbles slightly just pick it up and twist it a little, should flatten right out

[manfaux]

HTF have you literally gone YEARS without typing on a rubber dome?  I call shens, unless you're one of those people that never leave your house.

Wait.. you play starcraft?  Ok this changes things

when I leave my house I'm most likely at work, where I also got a mechanical, what's so implausible about that?

[SpatiallyAware]

Well, on the few occasions in my life during which I had access to clouds of boobs, I wasn't concerned with typing, so I can't really say for sure.

Probably.

I happen to be a subject matter expert; and after receiving my board yesterday I can absolutely confirm it is without a doubt like typing on a cloud of boobs.

After blacks, blues, browns, fukkas.....  Reds are by far my favorite, even just for typing.  When typing it just feels so much.... better.....  


That being said, I do believe it's one of those switches some people won't like at first..  Similar to how I looooved blues over browns until I used browns for a few weeks rather than a few minutes.  I still like blues but they're more for 'fun' than long-term use (for me anyway)


I'm seriously considering buying another red switch board to replace my brown at work..