Protecting GH users from Bad Trades

[Photoelectric]

Also, it would keep children out of the Classified section.

If they can lie and get an ebay account I'm sure they can lie/steal whatever to get a paypal account.

Ok, I'll amend my statement and say it would be harder for children to get into Classifieds, but not impossible. They would have to be lying, cheating, stealing children to get into Classifieds. But doesn't PayPal have some controls for this, perhaps? When you sign up for a GH account, it's free. When you decide you want to use Classifieds, you must link your PayPal email to the account. Then, in the event of an issue, GH can at least provide the relevant emails to both parties.

EDIT: Or, require a heatware account, which seem to work. Maybe there's a paid service similar to heatware?

Problem with heatware is no one ever leaves feedback 

But new classified rules are coming, not holding my breath they will be any better but we will see.

Have some faith, friend.

[SpAmRaY]

Also, it would keep children out of the Classified section.

If they can lie and get an ebay account I'm sure they can lie/steal whatever to get a paypal account.

Ok, I'll amend my statement and say it would be harder for children to get into Classifieds, but not impossible. They would have to be lying, cheating, stealing children to get into Classifieds. But doesn't PayPal have some controls for this, perhaps? When you sign up for a GH account, it's free. When you decide you want to use Classifieds, you must link your PayPal email to the account. Then, in the event of an issue, GH can at least provide the relevant emails to both parties.

EDIT: Or, require a heatware account, which seem to work. Maybe there's a paid service similar to heatware?

Problem with heatware is no one ever leaves feedback 

But new classified rules are coming, not holding my breath they will be any better but we will see.

Have some faith, friend.

Somebody has to be the pessimist

And I don't have as much an issue with new sellers as much as I do with people who have been here a while who are just deadbeat sellers 

[CPTBadAss]

Problem with heatware is no one ever leaves feedback 

But new classified rules are coming, not holding my breath they will be any better but we will see.

Somebody has to be the pessimist

Instead of perpetual *****ing maybe you should be a little more proactive. Grumbling doesn't solve anything. You want Heatware, ask for Heatware. You want better a classifieds experience? Conduct your business in the way you would want others to do so and hold others accountable to your example. Don't like how someone is doing something? Don't deal with them.

This thread needs more move making and less ****ing whining.

[swill]

Here is an easier solution. Only trade with people you know/trust.

[Photoelectric]

Exactly.

1. demand Heatware / other sources of feedback
2. look at people's post history to see how they are presenting themselves on the forum
3. go through the transactions in a very professional manner, and do everything that PayPal recommends to protect yourself (like only shipping to confirmed addresses, etc.)
4. take responsibility for your own decisions and money

[jdcarpe]

Exactly.

1. demand Heatware / other sources of feedback
2. look at people's post history to see how they are presenting themselves on the forum
3. go through the transactions in a very professional manner, and do everything that PayPal recommends to protect yourself (like only shipping to confirmed addresses, etc.)
4. take responsibility for your own decisions and money

5. WWJDD?

[SpAmRaY]

Problem with heatware is no one ever leaves feedback 

But new classified rules are coming, not holding my breath they will be any better but we will see.

Somebody has to be the pessimist

Instead of perpetual *****ing maybe you should be a little more proactive. Grumbling doesn't solve anything. You want Heatware, ask for Heatware. You want better a classifieds experience? Conduct your business in the way you would want others to do so and hold others accountable to your example. Don't like how someone is doing something? Don't deal with them.

This thread needs more move making and less ****ing whining.

The problem is the moves I want to make will get deleted and threads disappeared because we can't post about deadbeats so they will continue behind the scenes, believe me I've actually tried to think of a way to go about it that would be helpful and beneficial but it just isn't coming together.

Bro if you only saw some of the pm's I've gotten from people asking for help because they are getting screwed over by people. Why do I care, its not my problem right? Because it shouldn't have to be that way and at the end of the day I can't do anything about it because the rules are "Caveat Emptor".

I want this place to be a community where we can trust each other but there are some people here who don't deserve to be trusted and they will NEVER get my business but that does absolutely no good for the people who have dealt with them because there is no outlet for people to say, 'This guy really sucks at this, probably shouldn't deal with him." Although it doesn't stop me from pm'ing people and letting them now the situation which I have done a few times to warn potential victims.

So while it may not be much I am doing what I feel like I can within the given bounds, I do not apologize for whining or being negative because for all those out there being ignored and losing their moneys there isn't anything to be positive about and people need to be aware its not all roses.

Exactly.

1. demand Heatware / other sources of feedback
2. look at people's post history to see how they are presenting themselves on the forum
3. go through the transactions in a very professional manner, and do everything that PayPal recommends to protect yourself (like only shipping to confirmed addresses, etc.)
4. take responsibility for your own decisions and money

5. WWJDD?

Get their address and mail them poop?

[CPTBadAss]

The problem is the moves I want to make will get deleted and threads disappeared because we can't post about deadbeats so they will continue behind the scenes, believe me I've actually tried to think of a way to go about it that would be helpful and beneficial but it just isn't coming together.

You *think* they'll be deleted. Make the threads/posts and see what happens.

Bro if you only saw some of the pm's I've gotten from people asking for help because they are getting screwed over by people. Why do I care, its not my problem right? Because it shouldn't have to be that way and at the end of the day I can't do anything about it because the rules are "Caveat Emptor".

So I don't care either?

I want this place to be a community where we can trust each other but there are some people here who don't deserve to be trusted and they will NEVER get my business but that does absolutely no good for the people who have dealt with them because there is no outlet for people to say, 'This guy really sucks at this, probably shouldn't deal with him." Although it doesn't stop me from pm'ing people and letting them now the situation which I have done a few times to warn potential victims.

So while it may not be much I am doing what I feel like I can within the given bounds, I do not apologize for whining or being negative because for all those out there being ignored and losing their moneys there isn't anything to be positive about and people need to be aware its not all roses.

I would like this too but unfortunately that's not the reality of the situation.

Being whiny doesn't solve an issue. You just assume that there's no changes coming. What if there is and you just don't know about it yet? What if I told you I've seen the new changes to the rules? What if you spent more time trying to be constructive and not be negative and whine? How has that worked out so far?

All I'm saying is instead of being so pessimistic, let's try and come up with some constructive feedback. Being passive aggressive and sarcastic doesn't seem to be working.

[SpAmRaY]

You just assume that there's no changes coming. What if there is and you just don't know about it yet? What if I told you I've seen the new changes to the rules?

Well since photoelectric and jdcarpe have told me changes are coming I know they are and if they had anything to do with them, yes I trust they will be beneficial. However that isn't helping people get keyboards other people are holding hostage. 

AND good for you for seeing those changes 



^^ here's my positivity for the day.

[Photoelectric]

keyboards other people are holding hostage. 

How can ANY changes we implement help with that?  No amount of reasonable changes will help with that.  Only legal disputes conducted outside of GH (with credit card companies of involved parties, with PayPal, local courts, etc.) might help in those cases.

[SpAmRaY]

keyboards other people are holding hostage. 

How can ANY changes we implement help with that?  No amount of reasonable changes will help with that.  Only legal disputes conducted outside of GH (with credit card companies of involved parties, with PayPal, local courts, etc.) might help in those cases.

Well I think if the victim felt they would be supported they would post a thread letting people know what is happening. Usually when reputation is publicly on the line people do the right thing.

Hence my trying to think of a proper way to have a thread where people would feel like they could air it out so to speak but clearly that isn't going to happen.

But another problem and I believe I said it already but I'll repeat it, people get scared to publicly say anything because they think it will be locked or deleted, it is a perception thing.

[Photoelectric]

It should go into those people's Heatware profiles.  We need to have more people utilizing Heatware.

[swill]

It should go into those people's Heatware profiles.  We need to have more people utilizing Heatware.

Ya. More people should use it. It's super easy.

I recently went to give positive feedback for a few people only to realize they are not on HW. Too bad cause then they can't give me feedback either.

[elton5354]

Make Geekhack's own trading system.  A lot of forums have that..

[Photoelectric]

Make Geekhack's own trading system.  A lot of forums have that..

Can't at the moment.  Software limitations.  iTrader is I think vBulletin-based.  We're on SMF.  I've already brought it up a few times.

[tjcaustin]

keyboards other people are holding hostage. 

How can ANY changes we implement help with that?  No amount of reasonable changes will help with that.  Only legal disputes conducted outside of GH (with credit card companies of involved parties, with PayPal, local courts, etc.) might help in those cases.

Well I think if the victim felt they would be supported they would post a thread letting people know what is happening. Usually when reputation is publicly on the line people do the right thing.

Hence my trying to think of a proper way to have a thread where people would feel like they could air it out so to speak but clearly that isn't going to happen.

But another problem and I believe I said it already but I'll repeat it, people get scared to publicly say anything because they think it will be locked or deleted, it is a perception thing.

And it's a false one based on a small number of cases that devolved into pettiness, personal attacks and *****iness.  Sherryton gets a thread a month asking about things and they stay just fine.  So have many of the other threads for other people in the same vein.

[Krogenar]

The anonymity allows for the fraud, in my opinion. We could all be anonymous to one another, but the owners of GH could actually know who everyone was. That seeems reasonable. The owners could hand out the identities of aggrieved parties in the event of a dispute. And if someone behaves badly (some buyers do it, too) they should not be able to just create a new handle, and go back about their business. If a bad reputation followed you, people would  be more careful.

How to achieve a little less anonymity? I'm not sure.

[Tym]

I'm pretty sure we should link GH and Facebook account  )

But in reality I'm not sure, Spam's ideas make sense to me, I think the problem is (the point spams trying to make) that even if I know "x" is a scammer how does a new member know that?

But legal reasons get in the way apparently, so that can't be done. (Although I have no idea what reasons would stop you burning someones online alias) Interest to see what is implemented!

[Pacifist]

You're really not allowed to mark people as scammers on the internet?

This website http://steamrep.com/ is based 100% on identifying and marking people as scammers. Interesting

[Alessandro]

You're really not allowed to mark people as scammers on the internet?

This website http://steamrep.com/ is based 100% on identifying and marking people as scammers. Interesting

Would I be right in saying that no real life details are exchanged  or posted on SteamRep, just Steam account information?

[Krogenar]

Make Geekhack's own trading system.  A lot of forums have that..

Can't at the moment.  Software limitations.  iTrader is I think vBulletin-based.  We're on SMF.  I've already brought it up a few times.

What about this?
SMF Classifieds Mod: http://www.smfhacks.com/smf-classifieds.php -- available now for the low, low price of $79!
SMF Trader System Mod: http://mods.simplemachines.org/index.php?mod=346

The Trader System looks like an integrated heatware system. People can leave comments, etc. and it lists the number of trades that have occurred. To me that would at least give people the basic tools to be more responsible. And because it would  be integrated, people would be more likely to use it. Maybe these mods won't work, I don't know, but here they are. The Classified Mod looks like it would (at the very least) make the Classified section neater, nicer, more orderly.

There was a thread a while back talking about GH having some discretionary dinero -- maybe a forum upgrade would be a good investment.

[Lanx]

also it's not that you're not "allowed" to call someone a scammer, go ahead. the problem arises when someone views this in a legal manner. someone could say, "defamation of character" and sue GH. Yes they'd target GH, b/c why?
1. they can
2. it's being hosted on GH

[demik]

Heatware is crap. More screen names and passwords.

We need to bring back our feedback subforum.

[Krogenar]

also it's not that you're not "allowed" to call someone a scammer, go ahead. the problem arises when someone views this in a legal manner. someone could say, "defamation of character" and sue GH. Yes they'd target GH, b/c why?
1. they can
2. it's being hosted on GH

Update the TOS to prevent this. GH is not responsible for statements made by its users, and the TOS will also require that users lodging a complaint must do so in a formal, non-defamatory way.

[ebacho]

Heatware is crap. More screen names and passwords.

We need to bring back our feedback subforum.

Head-fi did this for a while and it wasn't too bad, though if you lost the link to your thread it could be somewhat hard to find again if you posted a lot.

[HPE1000]

Heatware is crap. More screen names and passwords.

We need to bring back our feedback subforum.

Head-fi did this for a while and it wasn't too bad, though if you lost the link to your thread it could be somewhat hard to find again if you posted a lot.

Headfi and OCN are both running on huddler and have both a marketplace feedback/rep and an normal post rep system. Both of those really help distinguish a helpful trustworthy member in my opinion. The rep to show that they aren't simply spamming posts everywhere, but are actually helping out people or posting useful information. And the marketplace feedback for obvious reasons.

[SpAmRaY]

Heatware is crap. More screen names and passwords.

We need to bring back our feedback subforum.

Head-fi did this for a while and it wasn't too bad, though if you lost the link to your thread it could be somewhat hard to find again if you posted a lot.

^^ yes I remember those days :/

[ebacho]

Heatware is crap. More screen names and passwords.

We need to bring back our feedback subforum.

Head-fi did this for a while and it wasn't too bad, though if you lost the link to your thread it could be somewhat hard to find again if you posted a lot.

Headfi and OCN are both running on huddler and have both a marketplace feedback/rep and an normal post rep system. Both of those really help distinguish a helpful trustworthy member in my opinion. The rep to show that they aren't simply spamming posts everywhere, but are actually helping out people or posting useful information. And the marketplace feedback for obvious reasons.

I wasn't referring to the current implementation, which is pretty good as it is.  Before (I forget how many years ago), you'd have a feedback thread in a feedback subforum of the classifieds where people could post their transactions with you.  There was no positive or negative feedback, just people posting their experiences, which was pretty good if you wanted more information than just a positive or negative.  Also, people could discuss negative experiences and compare with others if they needed to without cluttering up the rest of the forum (I remember one guy who scammed people by selling one item multiple times, and people found out by someone posting in his feedback thread ahead of time).

[Coreda]

Is there any feedback system on GH? For example, when sales/trades are complete do users normally add a comment to a profile page or something similar to have some record of feedback?

[Glod]

Lets say someone here actually goes through with some sort of legal action against another member on geekhack; like really take it to the next level this time--we almost had this happen with Profisist recently. Paypal's arbitration rules that you agree to in your terms of service basically prevents you from almost all instances of bringing them into court. Printed out copies of your bank statements and emails and pms do not fly in litigation; sure, you can bring the documents into court but they can be requested thrown out because they do not come directly from paypal, or your bank (the document's "chain of custody" unbroken). Geekhack, by declaring that all transactions are CAVEAT EMPTOR and declaring no responsibility, is preventing itself from being brought into a **** storm.
Some may be demanding that geekhack start intervening in these transactions, but unless we want to have the admin/owner (iMav?) giving depositions and our personal information by court order, i highly suggest geekhack stay as far away as possible from direct intervention in group buys and classifieds. Geekhack should continue to declare no responsibility in these transactions.

Although i am not an attorney, i work in litigation support and early case assessment. i essentially work everyday for lawyers. But I am just giving my opinion and not speaking professionally.

Now i have no idea if having a feedback system or hall of shame cancels out legally geekhack's declaration of no responsibility--i still would suggest against it. This system would undoubtedly have to be moderated and if a moderator makes any changes that means that moderator made a decision against or for a certain party. The same thing goes for a hall of shame; as soon as a moderator takes any action in such topic, that means that moderator made a decision against or for a specific party and in my eyes that is intervention. For example one party shares personal info about the other party for everyone to see, geekhack does damage control and takes that information off which prevents a whole other legal problem but that action could be considered intervention and siding with a party in some little way. Basically im saying that anything geekhack does that would break its own terms of service would hurt that terms of service to still be valid legally.

if Photoelectric is saying that a actual lawyer is essentially saying don't do ___ , then yeah i would say yeah not a good idea.

 

[Krogenar]

Make Geekhack's own trading system.  A lot of forums have that..

Can't at the moment.  Software limitations.  iTrader is I think vBulletin-based.  We're on SMF.  I've already brought it up a few times.

What about this?
SMF Classifieds Mod: http://www.smfhacks.com/smf-classifieds.php -- available now for the low, low price of $79!
SMF Trader System Mod: http://mods.simplemachines.org/index.php?mod=346

The Trader System looks like an integrated heatware system. People can leave comments, etc. and it lists the number of trades that have occurred. To me that would at least give people the basic tools to be more responsible. And because it would  be integrated, people would be more likely to use it. Maybe these mods won't work, I don't know, but here they are. The Classified Mod looks like it would (at the very least) make the Classified section neater, nicer, more orderly.

There was a thread a while back talking about GH having some discretionary dinero -- maybe a forum upgrade would be a good investment.

[digi]

I still don't understand why we shouldn't have a sticky in the Classy's that lists the username with the link next to the classified post that went sour. Something is better than nothing and it would help the community.

e.g. - shadyseller name (or buyer): post url

[riotonthebay]

I still don't understand why we shouldn't have a sticky in the Classy's that lists the username with the link next to the classified post that went sour. Something is better than nothing and it would help the community.

e.g. - shadyseller name (or buyer): post url

The reason is quite simple: any thread hosted by GeekHack, even if not managed by GeekHack, that correlates even usernames with "scammer" opens GeekHack up to potential libel lawsuits.

Consider the following hypothetical scenario: In an expensive transaction unrelated to GeekHack, Party A is doing their due diligence on Party B. In doing so, Party A comes across the thread you're suggesting, labeling Party B as untrustworthy. Party A therefore decides not to do business with Party B. Party B now has a case against GeekHack that this thread negatively impacted them in a very real way.

This is blown a bit out of proportion, but these types of issues are things that GeekHack absolutely wants to avoid.

[digi]

I still don't understand why we shouldn't have a sticky in the Classy's that lists the username with the link next to the classified post that went sour. Something is better than nothing and it would help the community.

e.g. - shadyseller name (or buyer): post url

The reason is quite simple: any thread hosted by GeekHack, even if not managed by GeekHack, that correlates even usernames with "scammer" opens GeekHack up to potential libel lawsuits.

Consider the following hypothetical scenario: In an expensive transaction unrelated to GeekHack, Party A is doing their due diligence on Party B. In doing so, Party A comes across the thread you're suggesting, labeling Party B as untrustworthy. Party A therefore decides not to do business with Party B. Party B now has a case against GeekHack that this thread negatively impacted them in a very real way.

This is blown a bit out of proportion, but these types of issues are things that GeekHack absolutely wants to avoid.

ah, that sucks. guess i'll just have to keep my personal blacklist updated.

[HipsterPunks]

Can't we have a thread of "outstanding SUPER traders who are the best and wouldn't scam you in the slightest" thread? We would all know what that thread REALLY entails

[Krogenar]

Can't we have a thread of "outstanding SUPER traders who are the best and wouldn't scam you in the slightest" thread? We would all know what that thread REALLY entails

That could entail risk, too -- what if one of those "safe" traders makes a mistake, or actually tries to scam someone? Then GH would be on the hook for recommending them. Still, I think the TOS protects GH from legal responsibility, so it's not an issue. An integrated system similar to heatware would not make bad trades vanish entirely, but it would provide users with a tool that they can use to make decisions. The sellers require protection, too, from people who sometimes are willfully obtuse -- they don't understand that sometimes, even with great sellers, **** happens.

An integrated heatware system would at least allow people to see the aggrieved party's name, and (hopefully) in this sort of scenario, see that the person is being unreasonable.

Again, an integrated heatware system would not prevent bad trades, it would just be a tool to help prevent them, or redress them.

[HipsterPunks]

Can't we have a thread of "outstanding SUPER traders who are the best and wouldn't scam you in the slightest" thread? We would all know what that thread REALLY entails

That could entail risk, too -- what if one of those "safe" traders makes a mistake, or actually tries to scam someone? Then GH would be on the hook for recommending them. Still, I think the TOS protects GH from legal responsibility, so it's not an issue. An integrated system similar to heatware would not make bad trades vanish entirely, but it would provide users with a tool that they can use to make decisions. The sellers require protection, too, from people who sometimes are willfully obtuse -- they don't understand that sometimes, even with great sellers, **** happens.

An integrated heatware system would at least allow people to see the aggrieved party's name, and (hopefully) in this sort of scenario, see that the person is being unreasonable.

Again, an integrated heatware system would not prevent bad trades, it would just be a tool to help prevent them, or redress them.

I think I didn't word that right. Basically it's a thread that lists all the scammers but nowhere mentions that they have done any wrong doing. I.e have a thread simply entitled [X] or any other phrase that has nothing to do with "scamming" or "labeling" to the outside world. However the geekhack community would simply know that the thread is listing the names of known scammers through word of mouth. Basically keep the thread locked, email your proof to a mod. The mod then determines if there is enough proof that a member abused or scammed another member, then adds the deviants username or any other alias to the thread. So essentially to the outside world it is just a thread full of usernames.

[SpAmRaY]

Can't we have a thread of "outstanding SUPER traders who are the best and wouldn't scam you in the slightest" thread? We would all know what that thread REALLY entails

That could entail risk, too -- what if one of those "safe" traders makes a mistake, or actually tries to scam someone? Then GH would be on the hook for recommending them. Still, I think the TOS protects GH from legal responsibility, so it's not an issue. An integrated system similar to heatware would not make bad trades vanish entirely, but it would provide users with a tool that they can use to make decisions. The sellers require protection, too, from people who sometimes are willfully obtuse -- they don't understand that sometimes, even with great sellers, **** happens.

An integrated heatware system would at least allow people to see the aggrieved party's name, and (hopefully) in this sort of scenario, see that the person is being unreasonable.

Again, an integrated heatware system would not prevent bad trades, it would just be a tool to help prevent them, or redress them.

I think I didn't word that right. Basically it's a thread that lists all the scammers but nowhere mentions that they have done any wrong doing. I.e have a thread simply entitled [X] or any other phrase that has nothing to do with "scamming" or "labeling" to the outside world. However the geekhack community would simply know that the thread is listing the names of known scammers through word of mouth. Basically keep the thread locked, email your proof to a mod. The mod then determines if there is enough proof that a member abused or scammed another member, then adds the deviants username or any other alias to the thread. So essentially to the outside world it is just a thread full of usernames.

won't work , mod's will not get involved.

[Krogenar]

Can't we have a thread of "outstanding SUPER traders who are the best and wouldn't scam you in the slightest" thread? We would all know what that thread REALLY entails

That could entail risk, too -- what if one of those "safe" traders makes a mistake, or actually tries to scam someone? Then GH would be on the hook for recommending them. Still, I think the TOS protects GH from legal responsibility, so it's not an issue. An integrated system similar to heatware would not make bad trades vanish entirely, but it would provide users with a tool that they can use to make decisions. The sellers require protection, too, from people who sometimes are willfully obtuse -- they don't understand that sometimes, even with great sellers, **** happens.

An integrated heatware system would at least allow people to see the aggrieved party's name, and (hopefully) in this sort of scenario, see that the person is being unreasonable.

Again, an integrated heatware system would not prevent bad trades, it would just be a tool to help prevent them, or redress them.

I think I didn't word that right. Basically it's a thread that lists all the scammers but nowhere mentions that they have done any wrong doing. I.e have a thread simply entitled [X] or any other phrase that has nothing to do with "scamming" or "labeling" to the outside world. However the geekhack community would simply know that the thread is listing the names of known scammers through word of mouth. Basically keep the thread locked, email your proof to a mod. The mod then determines if there is enough proof that a member abused or scammed another member, then adds the deviants username or any other alias to the thread. So essentially to the outside world it is just a thread full of usernames.

won't work , mod's will not get involved.

Agreed. I'm not saying that it wouldn't work, I'm just saying that the GH staff doesn't want to end up adjudicating trades -- and I don't blame them for not wanting to do it. But a heatware system baked right into the forum software that would let people make those decisions on their own is doable. Cover it with caveat emptor stickers, though.

[digi]

I still don't understand why we shouldn't have a sticky in the Classy's that lists the username with the link next to the classified post that went sour. Something is better than nothing and it would help the community.

e.g. - shadyseller name (or buyer): post url

The reason is quite simple: any thread hosted by GeekHack, even if not managed by GeekHack, that correlates even usernames with "scammer" opens GeekHack up to potential libel lawsuits.

Consider the following hypothetical scenario: In an expensive transaction unrelated to GeekHack, Party A is doing their due diligence on Party B. In doing so, Party A comes across the thread you're suggesting, labeling Party B as untrustworthy. Party A therefore decides not to do business with Party B. Party B now has a case against GeekHack that this thread negatively impacted them in a very real way.

This is blown a bit out of proportion, but these types of issues are things that GeekHack absolutely wants to avoid.

Going back to this, if what you're saying is true, then theoretically speaking all threads such as "http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53700.120" should be deleted on sight?

[riotonthebay]

I still don't understand why we shouldn't have a sticky in the Classy's that lists the username with the link next to the classified post that went sour. Something is better than nothing and it would help the community.

e.g. - shadyseller name (or buyer): post url

The reason is quite simple: any thread hosted by GeekHack, even if not managed by GeekHack, that correlates even usernames with "scammer" opens GeekHack up to potential libel lawsuits.

Consider the following hypothetical scenario: In an expensive transaction unrelated to GeekHack, Party A is doing their due diligence on Party B. In doing so, Party A comes across the thread you're suggesting, labeling Party B as untrustworthy. Party A therefore decides not to do business with Party B. Party B now has a case against GeekHack that this thread negatively impacted them in a very real way.

This is blown a bit out of proportion, but these types of issues are things that GeekHack absolutely wants to avoid.

Going back to this, if what you're saying is true, then theoretically speaking all threads such as "http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53700.120" should be deleted on sight?

First off, IANAL. However, it's more obvious that those threads are merely tolerated and not condoned. They're also more heavily moderated and people who make threats (even joking ones) or baseless claims are warned. This is different than a stickied and curated listing of scammers.

[digi]

I still don't understand why we shouldn't have a sticky in the Classy's that lists the username with the link next to the classified post that went sour. Something is better than nothing and it would help the community.

e.g. - shadyseller name (or buyer): post url

The reason is quite simple: any thread hosted by GeekHack, even if not managed by GeekHack, that correlates even usernames with "scammer" opens GeekHack up to potential libel lawsuits.

Consider the following hypothetical scenario: In an expensive transaction unrelated to GeekHack, Party A is doing their due diligence on Party B. In doing so, Party A comes across the thread you're suggesting, labeling Party B as untrustworthy. Party A therefore decides not to do business with Party B. Party B now has a case against GeekHack that this thread negatively impacted them in a very real way.

This is blown a bit out of proportion, but these types of issues are things that GeekHack absolutely wants to avoid.

Going back to this, if what you're saying is true, then theoretically speaking all threads such as "http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53700.120" should be deleted on sight?

First off, IANAL. However, it's more obvious that those threads are merely tolerated and not condoned. They're also more heavily moderated and people who make threats (even joking ones) or baseless claims are warned. This is different than a stickied and curated listing of scammers.

How is it different if the thread is never deleted? I'm really not trying to be argumentative I just don't understand it. Thanks

[riotonthebay]

I still don't understand why we shouldn't have a sticky in the Classy's that lists the username with the link next to the classified post that went sour. Something is better than nothing and it would help the community.

e.g. - shadyseller name (or buyer): post url

The reason is quite simple: any thread hosted by GeekHack, even if not managed by GeekHack, that correlates even usernames with "scammer" opens GeekHack up to potential libel lawsuits.

Consider the following hypothetical scenario: In an expensive transaction unrelated to GeekHack, Party A is doing their due diligence on Party B. In doing so, Party A comes across the thread you're suggesting, labeling Party B as untrustworthy. Party A therefore decides not to do business with Party B. Party B now has a case against GeekHack that this thread negatively impacted them in a very real way.

This is blown a bit out of proportion, but these types of issues are things that GeekHack absolutely wants to avoid.

Going back to this, if what you're saying is true, then theoretically speaking all threads such as "http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53700.120" should be deleted on sight?

First off, IANAL. However, it's more obvious that those threads are merely tolerated and not condoned. They're also more heavily moderated and people who make threats (even joking ones) or baseless claims are warned. This is different than a stickied and curated listing of scammers.

How is it different if the thread is never deleted? I'm really not trying to be argumentative I just don't understand it. Thanks

There are certainly shades of grey here. I can think of a couple of reasons why those threads are different, but I don't believe it would lead to productive discussion. The point is that these types of threads (even the one you linked) potentially open GH to legal action. Different types of threads may be more dangerous than others. Caveat Emptor is the only sane and safe course that I'm aware of.

[digi]

I don't know anything about legal stuff but it sure would be cool if there was some way to be exempt GH from legal action so we could post a list of scammers. That's all I'm trying to get at but I think I understand what you're saying.

[jdcarpe]

I don't know anything about legal stuff but it sure would be cool if there was some way to be exempt GH from legal action so we could post a list of scammers. That's all I'm trying to get at but I think I understand what you're saying.

Hypothetically, a person, you for example, could make a small web site, which had an index page with some type of content on it. Then you could put a link on that main page to another page on your site that has such a list of known scammers.

You could always put a link to your site (main index page) in your signature here on GH, right?

I mean, GH could never be held legally liable for information hosted off-site, right?

[SpAmRaY]

I don't know anything about legal stuff but it sure would be cool if there was some way to be exempt GH from legal action so we could post a list of scammers. That's all I'm trying to get at but I think I understand what you're saying.

Hypothetically, a person, you for example, could make a small web site, which had an index page with some type of content on it. Then you could put a link on that main page to another page on your site that has such a list of known scammers.

You could always put a link to your site (main index page) in your signature here on GH, right?

I mean, GH could never be held legally liable for information hosted off-site, right?

JD knows whats up.

[baldgye]

This is a super interesting thread, I'm curious though the thread that already exist in some cases basically list some users as 'scammers'... so couldn't someone who was mentioned as the subject of one of those threads take GH to court on the deformation of character in the same way they could if there was simply a list of people with dubious track records?

If not, with the closing of these threads, would it not be possible to simply move all the closed threads too 'off topic' and make sure scammer or something similar was in the thread title so people could use the search tool and find the threads that way, then use the information in those threads to work out for themselves?

[digi]

This is a super interesting thread, I'm curious though the thread that already exist in some cases basically list some users as 'scammers'... so couldn't someone who was mentioned as the subject of one of those threads take GH to court on the deformation of character in the same way they could if there was simply a list of people with dubious track records?

If not, with the closing of these threads, would it not be possible to simply move all the closed threads too 'off topic' and make sure scammer or something similar was in the thread title so people could use the search tool and find the threads that way, then use the information in those threads to work out for themselves?

How about we call it "suspicious" sellers/traders, its it the word "scammer" that causes the problem?

[Photoelectric]

We've had some people actually threatening to take legal action even recently.  I don't know if they would actually do it, but the threats have been made.  As well as other sorts of threats.  Eventually someone might just go through with it--we have to be prepared for that possibility.  Hence treading this subject very lightly.

[baldgye]

We've had some people actually threatening to take legal action even recently.  I don't know if they would actually do it, but the threats have been made.  As well as other sorts of threats.  Eventually someone might just go through with it--we have to be prepared for that possibility.  Hence treading this subject very lightly.

Yeah I can understand your stance, but for better or worse GH has kinda become the ebay for mech keyboards lol... but yeah you could rename the threads to 'dispute between X and Y' for example or something