[IC] KAT Refined - GB starts tomorrow!

[blaqbern]

The thing that’s always bothered me about GMK sets is the caps lock legend on the icon mods. Nothing about that symbol indicates caps lock to me. Looks more like lowercase lock. Assuming the goal is to create a set with the signature GMK look but with all the flaws fixed up, seems like an opportunity to fix that incongruous legend. The upward arrow with the little bar underneath (seen in GMK Future Funk icon mods, for example) captures the caps lock function much more accurately IMO.
If you do decide to stick with the down arrow icon, I’ll still be in for BoW with text mods!
Great work on this.


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[NoPunIn10Did]

The downward arrow to mean “lock” is fairly common in European keyboards. In German-language boards, they rarely have anything other than that icon on that key.

I’m not sure who started the trend, but GMK likely uses it because they’re a German company.

The thing that’s always bothered me about GMK sets is the caps lock legend on the icon mods. Nothing about that symbol indicates caps lock to me. Looks more like lowercase lock. Assuming the goal is to create a set with the signature GMK look but with all the flaws fixed up, seems like an opportunity to fix that incongruous legend. The upward arrow with the little bar underneath (seen in GMK Future Funk icon mods, for example) captures the caps lock function much more accurately IMO.
If you do decide to stick with the down arrow icon, I’ll still be in for BoW with text mods!
Great work on this.


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[koenoe]

As a GMK fanboy this will be my first KAT set. Looks amazing!

[harlekein]

im not an expert with kitting sets, but the og 40s kit was ok to me. dont know if there is a special reason to mix 40s wtih ortho,i think ortholinear belongs more to the ergo kits, but that is only my opinion.

You probably have GMK Stockholm Syndrome if you think that 40s kitting is okay. This is KAT land and we have much more options here.

You do have a point though. It hasn't gone that way, but it could also make sense to combine regular + 40s mods in one kit and ergo + ortho in another if kits have to be combined. But they don't really have to with KAT, so why make people pay for a lot more plastic than they will use?

I would go further and prefer seeing separate ortho and 40s kits, but I've come to accept that with lots of kits, some have to be combined and lots of the 1u keys from ortho can be used by 40s. The other way around, not so much.

[lakeboredom]

This is the future. I love it soo much, can't wait to buy both sets.
My only complaint is a couple of the icon mods look off. Backspace is way too long, and the hook on ansi Enter is too short, doesn't look icony enough. Oh and we need full icon mods too ;p

[killchain]

I've got a Boardwalk build on the way and I'd be interested if there's going to be an Ergo kit that would fit either of these layouts:

https://imgur.com/a/jjL74xz

Maybe also some 1U blanks for the bottom row too, but I think the usual Ergodox kit fits the bill.

[MacSurfy]

40s kit has been replaced.

[Joaquox]

40s kit has been replaced.

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Ne icon mods?

[MacSurfy]

40s kit has been replaced.

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Ne icon mods?

I was going for that at first but seems like text mods is the preferred way on smaller layouts.

[Joaquox]

40s kit has been replaced.

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Ne icon mods?

I was going for that at first but seems like text mods is the preferred way on smaller layouts.

Except it's not. Every KAT GB so far that featured both options had a larger amount of icon mods sold for ortho.

[MacSurfy]

Added 1.75u Control to HHKB kits. It feels pretty Frankensteined at the moment. Personally I would not use a text mod like that with icon mods. Rather just use the regular Caps Lock icons so we will see how I feel about it later down the road.

[konstantin]

Added 1.75u Control to HHKB kits. It feels pretty Frankensteined at the moment. Personally I would not use a text mod like that with icon mods. Rather just use the regular Caps Lock icons so we will see how I feel about it later down the road.

You could use a Ctrl icon there (∧). I personally think it looks pretty good on GMK sets. I use MoDo on one of my MX HHKB boards, with the 1.75u icon Ctrl key, and text mods on the bottom row. I think it's much less of an eyesore than “Control” in the middle of icon mods. My 2¢.

[psxndc]

40s kit has been replaced.

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I'm a big fan of the R2 changes you've made and love the space bar options. Thank you!!

[harlekein]

40s kit has been replaced.

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Ne icon mods?

I was going for that at first but seems like text mods is the preferred way on smaller layouts.

Except it's not. Every KAT GB so far that featured both options had a larger amount of icon mods sold for ortho.

To me this really depends on the kit colors, the font, the alphas (I don't like non-Latin alphas with text mods), etc. In this case I like the text mods more than icon mods. So it's very subjective.

Ideally both would be on offer, but that's the runners choice.

[bow3i]

I love the attention to detail, hope this goes well for you!

[daerid]

Yup. I'm in. For at least two sets of BoW. This is the kit I've been waiting for

[Bonsa]

40s kit has been replaced.

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Ne icon mods?

I was going for that at first but seems like text mods is the preferred way on smaller layouts.

Except it's not. Every KAT GB so far that featured both options had a larger amount of icon mods sold for ortho.

To me this really depends on the kit colors, the font, the alphas (I don't like non-Latin alphas with text mods), etc. In this case I like the text mods more than icon mods. So it's very subjective.

Ideally both would be on offer, but that's the runners choice.

Yeah, same for me. Maybe it is time for a form?

[kajahtaa]

Would much rather have ortho kit separate.

Look at KAT Space Cadet ortho kit numbers.

[konstantin]

You may also want to include R1 1u Delete in the HHKB kit, since some people like to use that for their top-right corner key instead of `~.

[dvorcol]

The downward arrow to mean “lock” is fairly common in European keyboards. In German-language boards, they rarely have anything other than that icon on that key.

I’m not sure who started the trend, but GMK likely uses it because they’re a German company.

The thing that’s always bothered me about GMK sets is the caps lock legend on the icon mods. Nothing about that symbol indicates caps lock to me. Looks more like lowercase lock. Assuming the goal is to create a set with the signature GMK look but with all the flaws fixed up, seems like an opportunity to fix that incongruous legend. The upward arrow with the little bar underneath (seen in GMK Future Funk icon mods, for example) captures the caps lock function much more accurately IMO.
If you do decide to stick with the down arrow icon, I’ll still be in for BoW with text mods!
Great work on this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

On a mechanical typewriter, shift is a lever that lifts the carriage up, putting the paper roll in line with the capital letters on the type hammers.  A down arrow on the shift lock indicates its function, which is to literally lock the shift lever in the down position.

An up arrow on the shift key indicates its function: hold the carriage up.  However, this key at the end of the shift lever is often blank, probably for same reason the carriage return lever isn't labeled.



In case anyone is curious, I found this picture here.

[lakeboredom]

Added 1.75u Control to HHKB kits. It feels pretty Frankensteined at the moment. Personally I would not use a text mod like that with icon mods. Rather just use the regular Caps Lock icons so we will see how I feel about it later down the road.

Please make it a control icon in the icon mods NOT TEXT. Also please add a full icon bottom row kit, since there is not limit to the kits I can't imagine a scenario where you don't add this option. 
To reiterate my last message. Backspace icon is way too long, and the hook on ANSI Enter is too short, it doesnt look icony enough, please compare to GMK icon mods.

[Bl4ck]

Added 1.75u Control to HHKB kits. It feels pretty Frankensteined at the moment. Personally I would not use a text mod like that with icon mods. Rather just use the regular Caps Lock icons so we will see how I feel about it later down the road.

Please make it a control icon in the icon mods NOT TEXT. Also please add a full icon bottom row kit, since there is not limit to the kits I can't imagine a scenario where you don't add this option. 
To reiterate my last message. Backspace icon is way too long, and the hook on ANSI Enter is too short, it doesnt look icony enough, please compare to GMK icon mods.

I support this. The flexibility in KAT should allow and encourage this.

[Solotov]

Would love to see alternate alphas other than English like some other KAT sets 

[MacSurfy]

To reiterate my last message. Backspace icon is way too long, and the hook on ANSI Enter is too short, it doesnt look icony enough, please compare to GMK icon mods.

I heard you the first time . Thank you for your feedback, but "they are too long" or "too short" is an opinion that I am guessing you are basing off what GMK does? If you check my second post after the intro you'll see that there is no system in how GMK does it, neither do I want to replicate exactly what they are doing. I am actually planning to do an overhaul on them in a bit and present it to you guys with a bit more background and maybe even options. I have a few kitting issues I want to resolve first and they may also impact the arrows (40s/Ortho kit mods icon vs. text) so I am hoping you'll like them more once I do that, but that will happen a bit later.

[MacSurfy]

Added 1.75u Control to HHKB kits. It feels pretty Frankensteined at the moment. Personally I would not use a text mod like that with icon mods. Rather just use the regular Caps Lock icons so we will see how I feel about it later down the road.

Please make it a control icon in the icon mods NOT TEXT. Also please add a full icon bottom row kit, since there is not limit to the kits I can't imagine a scenario where you don't add this option. 

The idea with the HHKB kit (previously named "Chef's Special") was that I would offer a HHKB layout the way I rock it. Sort of a take it or leave it kit with the exact amount of keys and nothing more. More like a little fun idea that people could buy in to or not. Earlier version even had mixed BoW/WoB in it. The downside with this is of course that some will feel left out (Tsangan), some want other keys... some hate the mods etc etc. I was fully aware that this might happen but the more revisions people ask for in this kit the less I feel it was a good idea to have it in to begin with.

It's getting too bloated and you could actually just grab the other kits and get the mods you want, just like with any other set out there. Since numpad and F-row is broken out of the standard base kits I don't think you would pay that much more actually. I'd be happy to do revisions to the mods kits instead you can use the combo you want. Sounds good?

[MacSurfy]

You may also want to include R1 1u Delete in the HHKB kit, since some people like to use that for their top-right corner key instead of `~.

Please make it a control icon in the icon mods NOT TEXT. Also please add a full icon bottom row kit, since there is not limit to the kits I can't imagine a scenario where you don't add this option. 

The idea with the HHKB kit (previously named "Chef's Special") was that I would offer a HHKB layout the way I rock it. Sort of a take it or leave it kit with the exact amount of keys and nothing more. More like a little fun idea that people could buy in to or not. Earlier version even had mixed BoW/WoB in it. The downside with this is of course that some will feel left out (Tsangan), some want other keys... some hate the mods etc etc. I was fully aware that this might happen but the more revisions people ask for in this kit the less I feel it was a good idea to have it in to begin with.

It's getting too bloated and you could actually just grab the other kits and get the mods you want, just like with any other set out there. Since numpad and F-row is broken out I don't think you would pay that much more actually. I'd be happy to do revisions to the mods kits instead you can use the combo you want. Sounds good?

[mrbiin]

Is a french kit doable ? With classic colorway like these you would sell some (not hundreds tho). I think I would buy two full sets, especially if you put the third legend like you did in NorDe kit. This third legend is missing in all KAT sets because of centered legends.
You would make some dudes like me very happy !

I second this, also North and South kits would make a lot of sense for this kind of set. Please think about it!

Another vote for North and South kits here.

[nguyenhimself]

Question: Why do we need a seperate WoB sub-set, when KAT WoB is still on track and looks pretty much the same?

[Joaquox]

Question: Why do we need a seperate WoB sub-set, when KAT WoB is still on track and looks pretty much the same?

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Read the first 2 posts.

[MacSurfy]

Question: Why do we need a seperate WoB sub-set, when KAT WoB is still on track and looks pretty much the same?

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Edit: I was trolled obviously  :D

[harlekein]

Question: Why do we need a seperate WoB sub-set, when KAT WoB is still on track and looks pretty much the same?

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Edit: I was trolled obviously  :D

That guy is always trolling.

[Acoipat]

It's looking great, thanks for all your work and responsiveness so far. Super excited for this!

With the change to 40s, I'd be interested in seeing some sort of smaller standalone spacebar kit for split and Alice layout support without all those extra keys. Something small with just a bunch of bars and an extra b?

[KingOfMemes]

Yo for real though, colevrak boys are going to eat on this one, yeah?

[Keyjus]

Will there be a mixed black and white kit like in one of the renders?

[MacSurfy]

Will there be a mixed black and white kit like in one of the renders?

That wouldn't make a whole lot of sense when there's already two versions of each to pick from. What you see most often is for instance black mods and white alphas. So then you don't need a mixed kit. The specific one you are talking about is the Iron180 I guess and that has exactly that combo but also two F-Row kits (BoW & WoB). It's the only additional kit you need for that specific look.

[Poesjuh]

Yes! Couldn’t agree more about the big font alpha’s of kat. It’s the one thing I dislike every time. Perhaps this will be my first KAT set? Time will tell


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[cowsareverywhere]

I am gonna be spending so much money when this gets to GB!

[MacSurfy]

I am gonna be spending so much money when this gets to GB!

Thank you, and thank you to the people I haven't thanked yet 

Regarding GB, I will make a proper announcement when I know a little bit more but I was aiming for August 1st but that's a little bit unrealistic I think.

I will be ordering color samples tomorrow and apparently it will be some time before I get them. It is quite important that I have them before the GB though so better to add another month. I would say we're probably looking at Sept 1st but as we get a little bit closer I will announce an official date.

Cheers!

[amperrsand]

I actually did a double take and realized that the Function keys are separate from the modifiers. Is that a money-saving decision?

[Scottw]

Obviously a crap ton of work went into this. Thank you for your effort.

It might add too much to the initial project, but I would love to see additional colors as well. Your basic blue, red, green, etc. This would allow you to just focus on acquiring additional colors rather than worrying about sets/themes.

Still early, but a smart vendor should consider making this a stock set. I am in for one of each for sure.

[MacSurfy]

I actually did a double take and realized that the Function keys are separate from the modifiers. Is that a money-saving decision?

Yes I decided to move them to their own kit so that users of smaller layouts don't have to pay for them. Same with numpad.

[desmotyping]

Another one hoping for Colevrak.  This set looks great and I'd purchase it for certain if it had it; I actually registered for geekhack in the hope that one more vote might make a difference.

[MelonBred]

I see that there's some debate on whether to go with icon or text mods for the 40s kit. If we're keeping track of votes, mine would go to icon mods. Very much looking forward to purchasing this set either way!

[hammerbrotha]

Love it, i'm in!

[Adelscott]

So this really will be the first KAT set not offering French support ?

This potentially could sell even better than KAT Milkshake. In a perfect world, a mainstream colorway like yours could be available in stock in EU proxies at all times and sell regularly to new comers ...

@OP you replied to me on Reddit that "the numbers of french kits on previous GBs were too small",  I ear that. But did you consider that those who buy those kits also buy the others kits ? Could you go the extra mile like almost all other KAT designers ? Is that really complicated and time consuming to offer this "basic" kit ?  We are not asking for a second B or to split a kit in fifty ways to please some, we are just begging to exist.

KAT (along with KAM) with no specific MOQ is the only profile we have access to, please don't take that away from us ...

#ThisIsNotGMK #AzertyLivesMatter

[harlekein]

KAT (along with KAM) with no specific MOQ is the only profile we have access to, please don't take that away from us ...

I feel the same about KAT and Colevrak. I know a lot of people keep using typewriter layouts, but please, Colemak users are increasing and with KAT we finally have a chance to just get in on kits.

[MacSurfy]

So this really will be the first KAT set not offering French support ?

This potentially could sell even better than KAT Milkshake. In a perfect world, a mainstream colorway like yours could be available in stock in EU proxies at all times and sell regularly to new comers ...

@OP you replied to me on Reddit that "the numbers of french kits on previous GBs were too small",  I ear that. But did you consider that those who buy those kits also buy the others kits ? Could you go the extra mile like almost all other KAT designers ? Is that really complicated and time consuming to offer this "basic" kit ?  We are not asking for a second B or to split a kit in fifty ways to please some, we are just begging to exist.

KAT (along with KAM) with no specific MOQ is the only profile we have access to, please don't take that away from us ...

#ThisIsNotGMK #AzertyLivesMatter

I haven't made any hard choices yet between kits, so there's still hope  . Kits are still being changed often, I had a big change yesterday, and another one the day before. GB is still quite some time away and I am moving down the ladder and looking at priorities. I said the French kit is not looking very likely, and with Space Cadet selling 6 (!!) kits in total that is still true. In the order of things there are other kits that are more important and bigger groups of users that want to have their needs met first. It's just the way it is, hope you can understand that?

[harlekein]

Colevrak sets aren't selling that much anymore on all KAT offerings. The first few sure did, because "Finally! Colevrak!". After some time this has saturated a bit. And I take into the acount that when a non-Latin monolegend kit is offered, Colevrak users can buy that instead and are paying less than alphas + Colevrak kit.

Since this set has a different look than other KAT sets and there are no non-Latin legends on offer, I honestly believe Colevrak kits will do fairly well. KAT Space Cadet offered something truly amazing for alternative layout users: Stand alone Colemak and Dvorak alpha kits. It also had a mono cadet legend kit, so Colevrak users were spread out over three different kits. They didn't sell huge, but still okay, I'd say.

[MacSurfy]

Colevrak sets aren't selling that much anymore on all KAT offerings. The first few sure did, because "Finally! Colevrak!". After some time this has saturated a bit. And I take into the acount that when a non-Latin monolegend kit is offered, Colevrak users can buy that instead and are paying less than alphas + Colevrak kit.

Since this set has a different look than other KAT sets and there are no non-Latin legends on offer, I honestly believe Colevrak kits will do fairly well. KAT Space Cadet offered something truly amazing for alternative layout users: Stand alone Colemak and Dvorak alpha kits. It also had a mono cadet legend kit, so Colevrak users were spread out over three different kits. They didn't sell huge, but still okay, I'd say.

Yes agreed that there might be a different interest.. or maybe not. But I am compiling numbers now from all the sets that have numbers available to make a bit of a priority list so changes/additions are coming.

[DERBS]

Wow! I love it! Count me in for most kits for BoW and WoB

Also +1 for Icon mods in the 40s Kit!