Scoops vs. Bars vs. Nipples Discussion Thread

[jerue]

Just got my first SA set, which has nips.

Can confirm I do not like nips at all. I don't mind them on Modern Selectric as it has a bit of a "retro" feel to it...I guess retro meaning people enjoyed the sharpness of homing keys 

I always enjoyed the flat keycaps of SP - which most sets have as alternatives - Eve had scoops-only, DSA scoops were more tolerable then GMK scoops

You could try the flat keycaps of your set, maybe carve a bump into the flat keycap if it doesn't work flat

This set only has nipped homing keys, no other options had R3 homing keys either

I broke out some R3 novelties and am using those in the meantime, it feels so much better. I might have to try to flatten them or cave and buy some blanks. Wow do SA caps look great on a 60%...

[Polymer]

I just noticed that Ivan had bars as an option in his Dolch (and possibly others).
Is there another reason besides preference that designers exclude them? Is cost really that high that they don't think people will buy them?

Some people have a hard time believing people actually do prefer bars..
Then they think the extra cost (2 euro per set) would somehow blow out the MOQ requirement and is unjustified since "no one" wants bars over scoops..
If enough people talked about it in the GB, they might actually include it...

[KHAANNN]

I just noticed that Ivan had bars as an option in his Dolch (and possibly others).
Is there another reason besides preference that designers exclude them? Is cost really that high that they don't think people will buy them?

Some people have a hard time believing people actually do prefer bars..
Then they think the extra cost (2 euro per set) would somehow blow out the MOQ requirement and is unjustified since "no one" wants bars over scoops..
If enough people talked about it in the GB, they might actually include it...

It doesn't happen in the GB, in doesn't happen in the IC, the sane thing to do is to skip GB's without scoops and only join those which include bars too (if you can holster yourself and resist skipping GMK's)
There are also misguided users who can't grasp bars+scoops could both be added to the sets, so they oppose you hard when you suggest the addition of bars, e.g: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74183.msg1865146#msg1865146

GB runners are usually hard core scoopers which take these scoops/bars thing like a religious alignment, it seems unthinkable for them to include bars too, it goes against their beliefs (or - they usually seem to want the keyset only for themselves and the GB/community aspect is just an illusion to fill the 250 MOQ) - in either case, the honourable thing to do is to just silently skip the GB (I usually fail at the silent part)

I convinced Sheraton to include bars+scoops too in his future GMK sets, I'm sure if Ivan runs another GMK GB, it would include bars again too, which is great
I think both Miami Nights and Sky Dolch should've included scoops too, although I don't care one bit for scoops, I know many people need it, used to it, yet for some reason, whenever the addition of bars comes up, many scoops users oppose it

On a personal level, I'm skipping GMK sets which have side-prints, double-shot additions like Q/mu etc., include only scoops, I seem to only enjoy simple alphas, so don't take my analysis/suggestions selfish, even if bars are added to some recent GMK GB's, I wouldn't personally be interested in them - yet I still make the suggestions in each IC/GB, so people who acquire these sets in the future could actually enjoy them and not be forced to live with scoops

[Giorgio]

Maybe that the recent failure of super classics like beige will bring down the prices to $75, which is absolutely doable, including only Standard ISO - ansi and bar plus scoops. With extra sets available obviously.

[ATXTider]

Maybe that the recent failure of super classics like beige will bring down the prices to $75, which is absolutely doable, including only Standard ISO - ansi and bar plus scoops. With extra sets available obviously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k8craCGpgs

[Giorgio]

Maybe that the recent failure of super classics like beige will bring down the prices to $75, which is absolutely doable, including only Standard ISO - ansi and bar plus scoops. With extra sets available obviously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k8craCGpgs

Wasn't TA $90 with lots of extras? And it came with three custom colors.

[swimmingbird]

Maybe that the recent failure of super classics like beige will bring down the prices to $75, which is absolutely doable, including only Standard ISO - ansi and bar plus scoops. With extra sets available obviously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k8craCGpgs

Wasn't TA $90 with lots of extras? And it came with three custom colors.

It was $100 and did get 1000+ orders which is no doubt the largest GMK group buy ever

[Giorgio]

Fine let's say that without custom colors it was $95

[KHAANNN]

Btw, in terms of GMK's, there's the Uniqey black-box, there might be something keycap related inside that will end the discussion, enable everyone to get exactly what they want

Actually, on the Uniqey thread, it's claimed unique base/alpha selections for each keycap is possible, but that's just a claim at this point

I wonder how they are going to handle it, they probably streamlined the double-shot process, or they might be batching unique keycaps and just handling them manually - in any case, we will probably see in 1-2 years

250 euros would be a small amount to pay for a custom keycap set, considering the base keyboard could be sold later on, it would probably reduce the keycap cost significantly

[tbc]

Fine let's say that without custom colors it was $95

i'm not sure what you're talking about here.

you can actually get a quote from GMK instead of making up numbers.

[Giorgio]

Fine let's say that without custom colors it was $95

i'm not sure what you're talking about here.

you can actually get a quote from GMK instead of making up numbers.

Oh yes, why shouldn't I waste the precious time of a valued worker. Why not. So correct.

[tbc]

Fine let's say that without custom colors it was $95

i'm not sure what you're talking about here.

you can actually get a quote from GMK instead of making up numbers.

Oh yes, why shouldn't I waste the precious time of a valued worker. Why not. So correct.

why not?

if you're wasting their time.  they totally know how to stop talking to you.

but let's be more technically accurate while we're here.  you'd be SAVING them time because you could ask for the quote once and then post it to gh for everyone else to read before running their GBs.

you're trying to do good for the community right?

[Polymer]

Is there an actual GB to apply to this?  If not then he's wasting their time.

Not to mention, whenever you did or intend to do the GB you'd have to ask for a formal quote again.  If they're anything like any normal business, they don't let their quotes last forever so they have a certain expiry. 

In which case, you'd only ask for a quote when you're intending to actually buy...Outside of that, some speculation on what it might be is probably the easiest way to go...

[Giorgio]

Fine let's say that without custom colors it was $95

i'm not sure what you're talking about here.

you can actually get a quote from GMK instead of making up numbers.

Oh yes, why shouldn't I waste the precious time of a valued worker. Why not. So correct.

why not?

if you're wasting their time.  they totally know how to stop talking to you.

but let's be more technically accurate while we're here.  you'd be SAVING them time because you could ask for the quote once and then post it to gh for everyone else to read before running their GBs.

you're trying to do good for the community right?

Removing from ta three spacebars, custom colors and five keys brings the price down to $85 or less while giving you a standard ISO ansi set.

[KHAANNN]

On the pro-scoops side of things, especially with GMK's, scoops seems cleaner, the behemoth GMK bump might be prone to grime build up - not an issue with Vortex bumps tho
(nothing 2 hours of precise sanding can't solve)

I decided to use the scoops again while the bumped Dolch F/J's arrive, tried some other F/J's, yet using F/J's of a different colorscheme is really not my thing - and no matter how much I looked, I couldn't find better alphas than Dolch that include bumps, so it's 2-3 months with scoops for me (Ivan's gray dye-subs are pretty good, yet the contrast is too low)

Still don't like scoops tho, usually fail "the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog" with scoops

[taylordcraig]

I'm a couple pages late but you're all kind of spouting bull****.
Didn't cherry sell their PBT molds to BSP, and presumably the ABS molds to GMK?
So is BSP not a source because a bunch of their molds used to belong to Cherry?

EDIT: Since the above statement is unconfirmed, if it is incorrect, that makes Cherry a valid past cap manufacturer rendering OG Cherry caps different than GMK.
[If we are excluding obvious quality differences between the two.]

Are GMK and BSP then considered the same company, both having bought their molds from Cherry?
Someone said BSP uses nipples and IMSTO uses bars; IMSTO orders from BSP, so either they have both molds or someone is stupid.
I mean really, I just outlined why like ten of you are stupid.

[KHAANNN]

I'm a couple pages late but you're all kind of spouting bull****.
Didn't cherry sell their PBT molds to BSP, and presumably the ABS molds to GMK?
So is BSP not a source because a bunch of their molds used to belong to Cherry?
Are GMK and BSP then considered the same company, both having bought their molds from Cherry?
Someone said BSP uses nipples and IMSTO uses bars; IMSTO orders from BSP, so either they have both molds or someone is stupid.
I mean really, I just outlined why like ten of you are stupid.

IMSTO orders from multiple places, one of them is Vortex, which has bars, drops mic

Why do you call people stupid man, do you really need it?

[taylordcraig]

I'm a couple pages late but you're all kind of spouting bull****.
Didn't cherry sell their PBT molds to BSP, and presumably the ABS molds to GMK?
So is BSP not a source because a bunch of their molds used to belong to Cherry?
Are GMK and BSP then considered the same company, both having bought their molds from Cherry?
Someone said BSP uses nipples and IMSTO uses bars; IMSTO orders from BSP, so either they have both molds or someone is stupid.
I mean really, I just outlined why like ten of you are stupid.

IMSTO orders from multiple places, one of them is Vortex, which has bars, drops mic

Why do you call people stupid man, do you really need it?

I know that. I ordered from Ivan's black GB and immediately sold it all once I got the ****ty scoops and bars combo.
Whoever said IMSTO uses bars is still incorrect, as you've pointed out he uses both.
He isn't even a cap manufacturer so not sure why he's being brought up anyway.
This whole thread is stupid, that's objective.

Edit: also added this line to my earlier post.

EDIT: Since the above statement is unconfirmed, if it is incorrect, that makes Cherry a valid past cap manufacturer rendering OG Cherry caps different than GMK.
[If we are excluding obvious quality differences between the two.]

[ika]

taylordcraig not sure how you're adding to this discussion and why you think it's all stupid, since it's about personal preference. Ivan's GB caps are sourced from Gateron, IMSTO just does the dyesubbing.

I thought the point of this thread is to gauge interest and preferences for those who like exclusively bars or scoops and how many people don't care. It's for future GB runners to decide what to include in their next sets: see Skidata.

[keshley]

I know I've read this entire thread over time, but I think I missed something here. Isn't this thread about which one everybody prefers, not about what each manufacturer can do?

[azhdar]

BSP molds aren't OG PBT cherry mold.

[Polymer]

I'm a couple pages late but you're all kind of spouting bull****.
Didn't cherry sell their PBT molds to BSP, and presumably the ABS molds to GMK?
So is BSP not a source because a bunch of their molds used to belong to Cherry?

EDIT: Since the above statement is unconfirmed, if it is incorrect, that makes Cherry a valid past cap manufacturer rendering OG Cherry caps different than GMK.
[If we are excluding obvious quality differences between the two.]

Are GMK and BSP then considered the same company, both having bought their molds from Cherry?
Someone said BSP uses nipples and IMSTO uses bars; IMSTO orders from BSP, so either they have both molds or someone is stupid.
I mean really, I just outlined why like ten of you are stupid.

There is a difference between selling the moulds and selling the machining, etc...As far as I know Cherry actually sold the equipment, machining, and process to make their DS ABS caps...Which is why they look exactly the same as old Cherry..and feel the same.

Does BSP?  I don't even know if what you're saying is accurate...but what difference would it make?  What are you actually trying to say?
We're not talking about individual companies..we're talking sources of keycaps..

If you want to count OG Cherry as a source and then say GMK as well..well, those are really the exact same thing...They're NOT the same company...Or if you don't like that explanation...Can you buy Cherry keycaps from made from Cherry?  I don't think you can any longer right?  So who really cares?  They're not a source of keycaps out there any longer...What you're saying is along the lines of....A company sold itself to another company but kept the name..but now there are TWO sources of their product..the one from the previous owner and the one from the current owner...

I haven't seen IMSTO keycaps with nipples.....but if we want to just go to BSP then we can say, BSP produces nipples, bars and scoops so we don't really need to worry about distinguishing between them right?

But thanks for bringing this thread back up...can't let people forget that a ton of people actually do prefer bars...I appreciate the bump. 

[ideus]

Another derailed thread, kidnapped by the throlls, yeah, even at GH we have our hord of them. This thread is about touch typing references, now is all about manufacturers options availability, while both may be important in their own way, it is advisable for those interested in a different topic to either post it in the simple question's thread, or open their own. The worst part is those in need for attention that start calling the others stupid, the can also open their own threads on stupidity in the out-off-topic sub-forum.

[hwood34]

Thanks for playing

[hwood34]

back by popular demand

[E3E]

I'm cool with scoops or nubs or bars, though I think there will always be a preference for bars out of familiarity. I do love how scoops look on SA though and likely any spherical cap. Cylindrical, I prefer barred, but I don't mind nips from time to time.