Cherry profile, low profile, DSA keycaps

[jcoffin1981]

These are all sort of similar and I wonder why they have not caught on more.  I have typed on only about 1/2 dozen mechanical keyboards, virtually all Cherry Brown MX, and the keycaps make a huge difference.  I have to say the most wonderful typing experience I have had is on my MX Board 3.0.  It is $90 budget, entry level board, but the feel is unbelieveable.  Yes the caps are ABS and the switches are PCB mounted, but you would not believe how smooth these are and how much control you have.  I can stop every keystroke just after it actuates.  The key caps are very low profile, but the keystroke is the same distance.

I just got a Poker3 and I'm waiting for my V60, and the typing is incredibly different.  Yes it is a pleasure to use such a well made board, but the tall keycaps...(I guess you call them standard or OEM).  If you look at the physics of the keystroke there is more sideways friction as the plunger and slider moves.  At first I thought the switches were much stiffer, but they are not.

1. Does anyone have a preference for low profile key caps or have they noticed this phenomenon?  I don't design boards, but this would be PARAMOUNT!
2. Would it be possible to sacrifice my MX Board and put the caps on the Poker 3 or the V60?
3.  Where the heck can I get short keycaps.  All I can really find are the Signature Plastics "DSA" I believe they are called and they are wholesalers I think.  Actually wait, It looks like you can buy key sets from them reasonably priced.  I realize that replacing all the keys on a 60% board is very difficult, I don't mind if they don't all match or if some can't be replaced.  I hate to lose the function legends, but it's a compromise.

[rowdy]

Regardless of the keycaps, Cherry MX switches all actuate after 2mm and bottom out after a further 2mm (4mm total travel).

Lower profile keycaps can give the illusion of shorter travel distance, but it is just an illusion.

Taller, heavier keycaps, such as SA profile, can make the switches seem lighter, but that is to be expected given how much plastic there is in SA profile keycaps.

DSA is an SP creation, and SP is pretty much the only place you can get them, aside from group buys here, Deskthority or even Massdrop.

DSA comes in ABS and PBT, but I haven't seen any DSA that are backlight-friendly yet (i.e. allow backlighting to shine through just the legends).

[jcoffin1981]

Yes, I fully realize the actuation distance is fixed.  The taller keycaps to me make the switches feel harder to press, but using a crude method I could tell the force is identical.  When you are exerting pressure from farther above the switch there is more sideways friction, and this can especially be felt if you don't strike the key in the center. 

I recall reading somewhere (can't find it) that the low profile caps on the MX Board cannot be removed or used elsewhere (something that effect).  Can anyone shed any light on this?  I did see a few DSA keycap sets on Signature Plastic's website, so I may buy some, I was really hoping to buy even shorter low profile or Cherry profile keycaps.  I'd love to know where to get some and if anyone else likes the low profile caps for similar reasons.

Edit: I found the key cap website list, so this will give me some places to start looking.

[SpAmRaY]

Yes, I fully realize the actuation distance is fixed.  The taller keycaps to me make the switches feel harder to press, but using a crude method I could tell the force is identical.  When you are exerting pressure from farther above the switch there is more sideways friction, and this can especially be felt if you don't strike the key in the center. 

I recall reading somewhere (can't find it) that the low profile caps on the MX Board cannot be removed or used elsewhere (something that effect).  Can anyone shed any light on this?  I did see a few DSA keycap sets on Signature Plastic's website, so I may buy some, I was really hoping to buy even shorter low profile or Cherry profile keycaps.  I'd love to know where to get some and if anyone else likes the low profile caps for similar reasons.

Edit: I found the key cap website list, so this will give me some places to start looking.

The caps lock is the only cap on the MX Board that has an odd stem as far as I know, not sure about the spacebar stem spacing.

DSA caps really aren't all that low profile unless you are comparing them to SA which are taller than normal. But being uniform and flat gives the impression they are lower than they are.

[rowdy]

Yes, I fully realize the actuation distance is fixed.  The taller keycaps to me make the switches feel harder to press, but using a crude method I could tell the force is identical.  When you are exerting pressure from farther above the switch there is more sideways friction, and this can especially be felt if you don't strike the key in the center. 

I recall reading somewhere (can't find it) that the low profile caps on the MX Board cannot be removed or used elsewhere (something that effect).  Can anyone shed any light on this?  I did see a few DSA keycap sets on Signature Plastic's website, so I may buy some, I was really hoping to buy even shorter low profile or Cherry profile keycaps.  I'd love to know where to get some and if anyone else likes the low profile caps for similar reasons.

Edit: I found the key cap website list, so this will give me some places to start looking.

DSA keycaps were tight for reasons explained in SP FAQ #22:

http://www.keycapsdirect.com/faq.php#22

IIRC the Granite set was not made to such tight tolerances.

Note to say that you can't remove any Cherry MX keycaps, just that you have to be extra careful removing DSA keycaps, and also keycaps from MX clear switches.

[Oobly]

Cherry profile are pretty low and feel better than DSA for typing on, but they're not as low as the caps on the Board 3. You can tighten up MX switches with switch stickers, so the tops don't move around. This helps a lot for taller keycap feel.

MX Clear stems have little spurs that help hold keycaps more tightly than the other types of stems (tactile greys also have these spurs) and DSA were originally made for industrial use, so the original molds have tight stems. The combination of DSA and Clears can make them very hard to remove without damaging the switches unless you leave them on for a couple weeks before removing them or loosen up the caps a bit before installing them using a loose switch. But they can certainly still be removed / changed for other caps.

New switches have more friction, too, but as they're used and they wear in, they'll start to feel similar with tall keycaps as with short. Browns are particularly bad in this regard. The stems are really not smooth at all.

You can swap the caps from the Board 3 to the V60, but the Caps Lock one won't fit without being modified. It's possible to remove the stem mount and glue it in a different position so it fits, though.

I'd add switch stickers and try a nice set of Cherry profile caps if I were you (or swap the switches for smoother ones). There's not much difference in height and a good quality set of heavy caps can really improve the feel of a board. In fact, thicker, heavier keycaps can minimise the scratchy feeling of rough sliders.

My favourite caps are really tall sculptured SA profile and I use them on plate mounted, stickered Clears. Initially you can feel the roughness / scratchiness of the slider, but as they wear in they start to feel simply awesome.

Of course there are also the new Zealio switches (tactile and linear versions), with smooth sliders and tighter casings so they feel great with any caps without needing a wearing-in period.

TLDR: What you're feeling is rough sliders. Smooth sliders and tight casings allow tall caps to feel as good or better than short.

[jcoffin1981]

Oobly, this is all very helpful.  I have a switch tester and I can actually see the wobble of the switch where it clips together.  I don't know how much it will affect the effect I am feeling, but it can't hurt.  But that is an awful lot of labor and I'm not sure I can open the switch without desoldering from the plate.  I have to do some research on this mod and see in more detail what is involved and if it's worth the labor.  I wonder, is it possible to actually introduce more wobble taking the switches apart.  Plastic is soft and can stretch and I would think you could actually introduce more unsteadiness, but modders to take their switches apart all the time and seem have no concern for this.

You made a lot of good points, but I think most of what I am feeling is from the taller keycaps as well as the surface of the stems as you pointed out.  Moving the keys from the 3.0 seems to make the most sense, as I will probably never find ones as low as this.  I really prefer the texture and shape of these as opposed to the cubicle blocks of concrete attached to my POKER (although the PBT is slowly growing on me).   I hate to sacrifice the board, but I know that because of the size I will probably never use it again.  After using an 11" board I can never go back to using a 19" board.  My elbow and shoulders already feel so much better.  I will just have to work something out with the Caps Lock.

I am curious how these switches will break in.  I know that it's really only the browns or reds for me.  Even going back to a Dell L100 feels very stiff.  The clear is interesting because I could probably never bottom out, but I can instantly tell they will be more fatiguing.

[Hypersphere]

I put the Granite Set on my Novatouch. The set looks beautiful, it has the great feel of PBT, and it works well on the NT, but I find it difficult to type on the spherical tops and the flat DSA profile. I find that I need a sculpted profile, such as Cherry, Leopold, OEM, SA, Topre, or the stepped profile you get on IBM Model F or Model M boards due to the curved plate (the IBM keycaps are all the same profile; it is the plate that gives the sculpting). For me, it is not the height that matters so much, it is the sculpting of the profile.

[jcoffin1981]

I like the softer plastic of ABS.  These cherry low profile caps are stepped and they are cylindrical, but much less so which also changes the feel.  They are significantly flatter. 

I think I can better describe the point I was originally trying to make.  With the Cherry keycaps it feels like I am pushing on the switch.  With the standard OEM height keycaps, it feels like pushing a piece of plastic which is then pushing the switch.  The difference in height is only about 3 mm.  The soft ABS also seems to absorb some of the scratching or friction in the switch while the harder PBT conducts it better to the fingertips which I do not find pleasurable.   

For the same reasons I like the PCB mounts better as they absorb bottoming out. 

I work in healthcare and doing a 12 hour shift on a ceramic floor is a nightmare on your knees and feet.  Working on soft vinyl floor takes away all the pain. 

[dante]

The MX 3.0 has a height of 1.1"
The DAS 4 is .8"
The KBT Next is .75" (!) this is probably taking it as thin as possible on a mass production keyboard without the use of G20 caps.

[Oobly]

I think you may really like the new Zealio switches then. They come in linear and tactile varieties, are made by Gateron, are MX compatible in all respects, have tightly fitted casings and very smooth sliders. The 62g variants are closest to Browns and Reds in terms of spring weight.

There aren't any board manufacturers using them yet since it's a "community made" switch, so they would require desoldering all the switches off a board and soldering these in instead.

You can use a keycap puller to swap the keycaps from the Board 3.0 to the Poker and try out how it feels. I think it should work fine and should have a similar feeling to the stock Board 3.0, except that the plate mount and smaller size both contribute to a "tighter" feeling board. The Caps Lock is actually a very odd case on that board, as it uses a stem position not used on any other board. To start with you can leave the Poker Caps Lock cap in place (or leave it without a cap if you don't use Caps much) to check the feeling and if you like it, make a plan with the Caps Lock keycap.

[ideus]

You are in the same place most of us were at some point in our search for a perfect board for particular needs. As most of us you may try some combinations until you find the keyboard design, layout and hardware more appropriate for your needs. Unfortunately there are a few of key factors to experiment with, before you can decide on:

There is no such thing as one board for all, it is all about preferences. The main factors for a keyboard overall feeling are switches, keyboard case design and material, plate - if any -, and keycaps.

Switches come in different basic design; for example, topre, cherry, cherry clones, buckle-spring, alps and others. Cherry and its clones come in a variety of stem design and spring modules.

The keyboard tray and if it has a plate or not, makes a huge difference in the feeling of the overall assembly. Its weight, and the geometry of the design make also a great difference in the rigidity, and, therefore in the typing experience.

Key caps are the stuff you actually type on; therefore, it may alter your final experience greatly, even though, the mechanics of the switch remains unchanged, different profiles and materials tend to give the user a different sensation.


Finally the layout of the keyboard will make a difference, unless you settle with an standard full size keyboard, or maybe a TKL, anything smaller will be a sort of trade offs, therefore you should take the time and money to put them on trial.

[jcoffin1981]

Yes, it looks like these Zealio switches are causing a buzz.  I am curious but they are making them quite heavy.  I see lots of switches and boards that I want to try, but the only way to try is to buy, unless you have a friend.  I couldn't decide between the Poker 3 and V60, so I think I'm keeping them both.

Ideus, I think you hit all the main points, and it is all very subjective.  The keycaps make a HUGE difference; you wouldn't think so but they do.  I think i like the V60 a little more because of the lighter keycaps.  I'd like to try Gateron next, but for now I'll work with what I have.

[Melvang]

I put the Granite Set on my Novatouch. The set looks beautiful, it has the great feel of PBT, and it works well on the NT, but I find it difficult to type on the spherical tops and the flat DSA profile. I find that I need a sculpted profile, such as Cherry, Leopold, OEM, SA, Topre, or the stepped profile you get on IBM Model F or Model M boards due to the curved plate (the IBM keycaps are all the same profile; it is the plate that gives the sculpting). For me, it is not the height that matters so much, it is the sculpting of the profile.

I wouldn't call the M and the F stepped.  Technically, yes the caps are stepped but due to the curved plate, you get a sculptured effect.

With zelios weights compared to Cherry weights for switches, keep in mind that Cherry rates switches at the actuation. Point and essentially everyone else rates then at bottom out. 

The actuation force measure for Cherry is the sole reason that reds, browns, and blues have different listed actuation forces on cherry's website even though those switches all use identical springs.  The reason for the difference in listed weights is because of either the bump or lack of bump with the reds being the "lightest"

[Oobly]

Yes, it looks like these Zealio switches are causing a buzz.  I am curious but they are making them quite heavy.  I see lots of switches and boards that I want to try, but the only way to try is to buy, unless you have a friend.  I couldn't decide between the Poker 3 and V60, so I think I'm keeping them both.

Ideus, I think you hit all the main points, and it is all very subjective.  The keycaps make a HUGE difference; you wouldn't think so but they do.  I think i like the V60 a little more because of the lighter keycaps.  I'd like to try Gateron next, but for now I'll work with what I have.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46449.0

62g "Korean" springs are very close to MX "light" springs.

And the keycaps heights make less of a difference the more worn in the sliders become. On smooth sliders, the keycap mass has more effect. It's not so wise to base your keycap choices on new sliders, since once they're worn in you may prefere different caps. The feeling of caps is important and makes a difference to the typing experience, but IMHO it's mostly the mass, surface texture and shape. As ideus stated, other factors affect the overall feel of the board more.

Since I use my boards at quite a flat angle, I find the "stepped" profiles (DCS, OEM, Cherry) to be more effort to use than those that have similar edge heights between rows (SA, DSA, MX Board 3.0, chiclet / flat), although I'm not a big fan of DSA for a number of reasons, primarily their smallish tops. As I've said, my favourite profile is SA, in "flat" all Row 3 or in fully scupltured form. My favourite set is still Penumbra, in 1-2-3-3-3-4 profile.

[boTy]

DSA comes in ABS and PBT, but I haven't seen any DSA that are backlight-friendly yet (i.e. allow backlighting to shine through just the legends).

Backlit DSA would be amazing. As it's possible to do double shot PBT+POM, SP should make these.

[Oobly]

DSA comes in ABS and PBT, but I haven't seen any DSA that are backlight-friendly yet (i.e. allow backlighting to shine through just the legends).

Backlit DSA would be amazing. As it's possible to do double shot PBT+POM, SP should make these.

SP can do doubleshot ABS and polycarbonate, but not PBT/POM. They have weird support structures for the first shot (legend), so they'd probably come out something like the Cherry Legend Replica caps.

[jcoffin1981]

I have decided to keep the poker and the v60.  The V60 gave me back some of the feeling I was seeking because of the soft keycaps.  But it still does not compare to the lower profile Cherry caps.  I don't particularly want to take the keys off from either of these boards as the originals always look better.  I also lose the legends that are printed on the front of the caps, which are important to me.  I don't really care about the legends on top of the caps.

I have to say that the SP Dolce DSA caps really do get me aroused.  But at this point, the best thing to do when I feel like using the low profile caps is to simply plug in the Cherry Mx board.