What a Difference a Tray Makes

[kurplop]

After many months of viewing the Geekhacks site I don''t remember seeing any pictures of keyboard trays. Is that something we don't do?  Does anybody besides me use one?

I have found the ability to change the slope and height invaluable in preventing fatigue.  With just the twist of a couple of knobs, in just seconds I can go from the classic typing posture to casual slouch to feet on the desk freestyle (pictures available on request). It's also nice to be able to push it out of the way under the tabletop when necessary, freeing up space to do other things. After several  prototypes, I've come up with a design that works well for me.



Even if you no longer use a tray I'm curious to know of your experiences

[Djuzuh]

I don't use one, because I don't have one.

[jwaz]

I smell a custom tray GB somewhere in GH's future, maybe one designed to be compatible with ErgoDox?

I really like your setup BTW

[kurplop]

It would be fun working on an ergodox tray design. It would be great to tent and slope the units and make provisions for a pointing device. The problem is many ergo users would only fully benefit from a fully custom unit built to their spec's unless there were a way to adjust tenting, split and pointing device location by user, defeating the custom aspect of it.

 But don't worry I'm not trying to solicit any orders.  Thanks for the complement.

[Icarium]

I totally want a tray but don't where to get it or which ones are good. Do you have any recommendations? And more pictures would certainly be appreciated!

[mkawa]

what model is that kurplop? it looks excellent. i've always wanted one of the 6-degree articulating ones (i think humanscale makes one, and ergotron makes one), but they're so pricey, and usually with enough effort i can just get my desk at the right height instead.

[kurplop]

I buy my cabinet hardware through a supplier named Louis & Company. They have about 20 branches in the west and midwest. The best deal most of the locals go with is made by Compx Ergonomx. I get them for about $65. That is just for the hardware, I've never priced the trays but I think the combos start at around $125.  They also carry KV brand. I know just the hardware can be as much as around $200 depending on features like levers instead of knobs, self locking height adjustments, more slide travel, etc.

Mine is fairly basic but is heavy duty, 360degree rotation, 10 degree back slope, 15degree front slope, 6" height adjustment and about 17" of travel. All of the essentials and it works great. I made the tray out of scrap wood from around the shop.

My supplier generally doesn't sell to the public and I am not sure it's even the best deal out there but I have seen some really high prices elsewhere. If any one gets stumped I could pick up one for you but the shipping would probably kill any savings.

When I have time I'll take more pictures.

[mkawa]

here are the models i've been wistfully looking at:

http://www.humanscale.com/products/product_detail.cfm?group=KeyboardSystems

http://www.ergotron.com/ProductsDetails/tabid/65/PRDID/361/language/en-US/Default.aspx

i have one of ergotron's LX arms with an extension in the office to allow my monitor to completely float off the desk, and combined with a lap-mounted work surface, i get extremely little fatigue. i tend to have more trouble at home though, where i actually need a desk for various hobbyist type stuff.

[alaricljs]

I'd like to try a lap-board setup as I have my monitors on ergotron LX's, but I haven't found a nice enough chair with removable or non-existent arm rests that I can afford.

[mkawa]

yah, the chair is crucial. at work we have herman miller mirra's, which have armrests that are adjustable enough to support a lap-desk.

this has been a big part of the problem with my home setup. at first, i tried to use the armrests on my 70$ costco chair, but that was clearly not working, so i ripped them off. still not enough though, as i can't get enough support out of the rest of the chair. quite annoying

btw, i would say the mirra's are incredibly overpriced (as is the stupid bubble-era aeron), but the fact is there's no chance of making a sitting workspace ergonomic without, at a minimum, the armrest and tilt support it provides.

http://www.hermanmiller.com/products/seating/work-chairs/mirra-chairs.html

[thegunner100]

I use a keyboard tray, and I find it weird that others don't :x. Tables are usually too high to be ergonomic without a keyboard tray.

[alaricljs]

It's hard to use a tray when you have a chair with arms that get in the way.  I've never had an office space that included such an appropriate chair.  The only place I had a keyboard tray, it had to be adjusted such that it was above desk height (low desk) in order to get the chair under it which then caused issues when my knees got punctured by the rail hardware.  Since then I've had the basic attitude of F trays.  Since I now work primarily out of my home it's difficult to address ergonomics properly without my wallet melting.

[thegunner100]

If your chair has to go that far in, how could you possibly type? Wouldn't your elbows be behind your body if your arm rests are under the tray?

[alaricljs]

As an example, on my current chair with proper posture my wrists are 2-3 inches behind the leading edge of the arm wrests with my elbows slightly forward of my mid-line (~1").  So, a tray would have to be above the arm wrests to be close enough to me to provide support.

[Icarium]

I demand pictures.

[kurplop]

here are the models i've been wistfully looking at:

http://www.humanscale.com/products/product_detail.cfm?group=KeyboardSystems

http://www.ergotron.com/ProductsDetails/tabid/65/PRDID/361/language/en-US/Default.aspx

i have one of ergotron's LX arms with an extension in the office to allow my monitor to completely float off the desk, and combined with a lap-mounted work surface, i get extremely little fatigue. i tend to have more trouble at home though, where i actually need a desk for various hobbyist type stuff.

The humanscale link is very informative. Their keyboard arms are similar to the Compx models but about 4x the price. Humanscale seems to offer a comprehensive service for office ergonomic needs but it does come with a price. It seems to be a good one stop solution for the fortune 500 office manager who needs to reduce WC claims from his staff but maybe not for the starving student or fledgeling home office entrepreneur who has to live within a budget. 

mkawa, do you find the ergotron arm to be firm enough?  It seems with such a long extension it might wobble. I'm pretty heavy handed and really pound out the keystrokes. Lay a 4 pound tri tip on my keyboard and in 30 seconds it will be tenderized. I think I could use the Compx as an engine stand to rebuild a small block Chevy on. It's really solid.

One other thing. If someone is simply looking for a keyboard tray that sits a couple inches below the table top and can be slid under and out of the way, a tray can be made like a drawer using simple drawer glides with a lockout to keep it sliding freely when in use. Glides + plywood tray =$15.00   Not nearly as versatile, no tilt or height adjustment but customizable and cheap!

[Okita]

Trays are nice because they place the keyboard at an ergonomically correct level compared to most desks that come with a predetermined height.

I've achieved the same effect by purchasing an office desk from ikea that has height-adjustable legs. This allows one to adjust their desk height according to their chair's height (which should be adjusted to the user's body), not the other way around.

[Trent]

You know, I just moved and I wasn't able to take my nice solid wooden oak desk with me.  With that I used to switch between the massive 30inch try and the main part of the desk.  Now I had to replace the desk with a cheap Ikea desk and I type very hard on my mx red kbt race and it causes the table to shake a bit and the screen to thus shake which makes it feel quite cheap.  I definitely will be looking to invest in a tray hoping that it will reduce some of the wiggle from my intense typing.

[shrap]

I've only had experience with cheap keyboard trays, which tended to slowly move farther away while typing and also couldn't hold whatever large keyboard and dual trackballs I was using.

If I had a desk and a desktop computer at home I would consider looking into it, but at work I do what Okita does and have the desk adjusted to the proper keyboard height. I don't know why that shouldn't be the case, do people do much writing nowadays?

[kurplop]

You know, I just moved and I wasn't able to take my nice solid wooden oak desk with me.  With that I used to switch between the massive 30inch try and the main part of the desk.  Now I had to replace the desk with a cheap Ikea desk and I type very hard on my mx red kbt race and it causes the table to shake a bit and the screen to thus shake which makes it feel quite cheap.  I definitely will be looking to invest in a tray hoping that it will reduce some of the wiggle from my intense typing.

Your comment made me chuckle. I can visualize the desk shaking, books falling off the shelves and the neighbors complaining about the noise. For real key pounders like us, somebody needs to come up with vibration dampeners like the ones on jackhammer handles. But seriously, you may check the tightness of the knockdown hardware on your desk. I have found cheap Ikea furniture to be fairly sturdy unless the screws are loose. It's just the nature of the design. Attaching the desk to the wall could also help.

I've only had experience with cheap keyboard trays, which tended to slowly move farther away while typing and also couldn't hold whatever large keyboard and dual trackballs I was using.
If I had a desk and a desktop computer at home I would consider looking into it, but at work I do what Okita does and have the desk adjusted to the proper keyboard height.

Adjusting the desk height seems like a good solution for the height issue. Has anyone out there tried the desk that electrically changes elevation?

 

I don't know why that shouldn't be the case, do people do much writing nowadays?

 

 I have an iMac27 and the screen was higher than I liked so I designed the desk elevation based on my monitor height needs.    The computer area of my desk is almost 2" lower than the surrounding desktop. The side work surfaces are standard height.  I don't write much but I do often need a work surface that's higher than optimal monitor and keyboard height.

[Gerk]

That looks like a great tray!  I don't use one right now (I also adjusted my desk height appropriately) but would like one like your setup.  I've had the same experience with trays, unless you spend big bucks you end up with crap.

[Lanx]

i have the ergotron keyboard arm, love it, i've also attached a metal plate to the left side so i can rest my nostromo on it (along with mouse pad on right).

[Icarium]

The ergotron arm looks really nice but seems to be quite pricey. I do like your setup lanks but with 3 of those arms that must be around $1000 just for those, right?

[Lanx]

actually no, like the kinesis i scoped out, i got my ergotron arms on ebay, a lot of ergotron arms seem to be for sale for defunct business, anyway i believe i got both monitor arms for 80 to 110 with free shipping (free shipping is essential cuz these arms weigh a lot, and it's silly to win a bid for 90bucks but pay 30bucks in shipping, so my search criteria is always with free shipping), the keyboard tray did take a while to find a good price for i'll admit, at least 3months of ebay searching and waiting, it's usually 250 for the tray (which i have no idea why the physical arms are exactly the same, just the tray is different, which can be bought separately for 80 to 100 i believe so the tray must be a lot), and was able to find it for 120 with free shipping, all are new no mars (you can tell right away if it was used cuz all the hex bolts are black coated, and the paint get's stripped away in a second)

so i'd say 360? for the setup with diligent ebaying (criteria had to be new, and free shipping), i'd say now (cuz it's a lot cheaper for some reason a few years later) you can get the same 2 arms and keyboard arm for $450-500 off amazon with free shipping (since amazon is now bombarded with 3rd party fullfillment by amazon).

[mattmrdck]

...Does anybody besides me use one?

I have found the ability to change the slope and height invaluable in preventing fatigue.  With just the twist of a couple of knobs, in just seconds I can go from the classic typing posture to casual slouch to feet on the desk freestyle (pictures available on request). It's also nice to be able to push it out of the way under the tabletop when necessary, freeing up space to do other things. After several  prototypes, I've come up with a design that works well for me.

Brand new to geekhack/first post...  Learned a great deal already and hope, as I learn more, I can contribute in kind...

I have used a tray for over a decade in my home office.  I have a Heywood Wakefield kneehole desk (not conducive to any computer use or typing) so I had a return built with an adjustable tray to match.  Changing keyboard height and slope is a godsend when working for long spells.

Kurplop:  I was blown away by your tray - it looks custom molded to your TE kb and trackball - can you elaborate further on how you developed/fabricated that piece?

I have a wooden tray that is hollowed out w/rounded Heywood Wakefield-esque edges and finishing that is sort of cut for my MS Natural Keyboard Elite, but I have a great itch now to get a new ergo kb w/mechanical switches.  Easy enough to swap out trays when that happens...

I'll continue to lurk and offer up little value, but again, thanks to everyone for all the knowledge...

[rowdy]

I have a keyboard tray at work, but it is always in the up position i.e. on the same level as the rest of the desk surface.

This is mainly because at even the first lowered setting, it is too low for my legs to fit under the desk comfortably.

The problem with this keyboard tray is that the gap at the side is right where the mouse should go, so I either have to move the mouse way off to the right (which I suspect is what has caused by current aching arm) or shift the keyboard a bit to the left and squeeze the mouse onto the keyboard tray.  This kinda works, but is awkward when moving the mouse pointer from one side of the dualk monitor setup to the other, as I have to pick the mouse up, move it back, and put it down to get the mouse pointer to move all the way across.

[kurplop]

That looks like a great tray!  I don't use one right now (I also adjusted my desk height appropriately) but would like one like your setup.  I've had the same experience with trays, unless you spend big bucks you end up with crap.

Gerk- Thanks, I've followed your comments for several months and it seems we've traveled similar paths i.e.  expert mouse, TE keyboard ...  I've always appreciated your insights and hope you give the TE another chance.

[


Brand new to geekhack/first post...  Learned a great deal already and hope, as I learn more, I can contribute in kind...

I have used a tray for over a decade in my home office.  I have a Heywood Wakefield kneehole desk (not conducive to any computer use or typing) so I had a return built with an adjustable tray to match.  Changing keyboard height and slope is a godsend when working for long spells.

Kurplop:  I was blown away by your tray - it looks custom molded to your TE kb and trackball - can you elaborate further on how you developed/fabricated that piece?

MattMrdck-  First of all, let me be the first to welcome you to the Geekhack community. I have found this to be the place to go with your keyboard questions.

Thanks for showing an interest in my tray. The board is just wood  that's been glued up, routed, band sawn, carved, bored, sanded and painted.

Desk ergonomics had become a bit of an obsession for me about 2 years ago when I needed to use my computer for something more than just downloading iTunes. Imagine my surprise when I discovered that this tough old construction worker, very acquainted with the harshest physical demands, found the pain from keyboarding and mousing unbearable. My hands just aren't comfortable on a standard keyboard and I couldn't use a mouse without my hand going numb almost immediately.

I bought an Expert Mouse hoping it would help and initially was very disappointed. It sat too high on the desk for me and my wrist had to be angled back and rotated counterclockwise to work the controls. It felt like torture. That's when I began experimenting with different heights and placements. I initially cut a hole in a simple tray to lower the trackball. Much better but I still had to rotate my wrist.

When I built my new desk, I designed a tray somewhat similar to the one in the picture. That's when I decided to angle the EM to match the natural twist of my arm. It's a little unusual looking but it worked.

I got a TE in the late winter of this year and it didn't fit right on that tray so I made another, routing down the keyboard area so that the top would sit just proud of the tray top.  In my opinion, the placement of the trackball is critical. I think it's best to have the trackball as close to the keyboard as possible with the ball just above the top of the keycap tops. This allows the hand to float from keys to ball without changing height and with minimal travel.

I think the most important thing I've learned is that there are many solutions and what works for one may not work for another. 

If I make another tray, I'll take pictures of the process.

[Gerk]

Gerk- Thanks, I've followed your comments for several months and it seems we've traveled similar paths i.e.  expert mouse, TE keyboard ...  I've always appreciated your insights and hope you give the TE another chance.

The TE goes in and out of rotation in my main setup .. these days mostly out.  It's a bit frustrating that I have to run additional commercial software to remap it to a more appropriate layout (most of what I've remapped they have "fixed" in the new versions).  Because of the third party software it also means that the remapping doesn't actually happen until after I log in to my computer -- which means an extra layer of complication when logging in because the keys you press may not actually be what are being entered (I moved the number row over to the normal spot for it and there's always numbers in my passwords).

That and the hardware bugs they have yet to fix leave a pretty bad taste in my mouth, I spend a lot of time plugging and unplugging the keyboard and usually after about the 3rd time when I unplug it it stays that way for a long while ...

[kurplop]

The TE goes in and out of rotation in my main setup .. these days mostly out.  It's a bit frustrating that I have to run additional commercial software to remap it to a more appropriate layout (most of what I've remapped they have "fixed" in the new versions).  Because of the third party software it also means that the remapping doesn't actually happen until after I log in to my computer -- which means an extra layer of complication when logging in because the keys you press may not actually be what are being entered (I moved the number row over to the normal spot for it and there's always numbers in my passwords).

That and the hardware bugs they have yet to fix leave a pretty bad taste in my mouth, I spend a lot of time plugging and unplugging the keyboard and usually after about the 3rd time when I unplug it it stays that way for a long while ...

I can appreciate your frustration. Even with the usb switch, I occasionally have to switch it several times to wake up the keyboard. Even when Truly Ergonomic deliver on their reprograming software promise (insert hearty belly laugh here), I doubt if they will ever address the Mac compatibility issues. I haven't tried any remapping so I haven't had the pleasure of losing it. Another strike against TE!

[Gerk]

I can appreciate your frustration. Even with the usb switch, I occasionally have to switch it several times to wake up the keyboard. Even when Truly Ergonomic deliver on their reprograming software promise (insert hearty belly laugh here), I doubt if they will ever address the Mac compatibility issues. I haven't tried any remapping so I haven't had the pleasure of losing it. Another strike against TE!

And that's why the won't get more of my money or any recommendations from me to others looking for an ergo board.  They've made lots of promises since day one but they didn't actually follow through on delivering the majority of of them.  Had this been a $59 Razer board I wouldn't care as much but for the price and the huge amount of time spent waiting for it ... I expected more out of this thing.  I feel like we got the "not quite finished" version of it and they have now just swept it (and us) under the rug and moved on to greener pastures and all of us that waited many many months and through slipped release date after another are basically SOL.

[posthaste]

I'm glad you posted this thread.  I need to drag out this old (but still new) 3M ergonomic keyboard tray from storage and have a look at it.