Unpopular Keyboard Opinions

[HoffmanMyster]

Your hands don't even leave the home row if you use the number row. Try it sometime, really try it for a few days or weeks, and see how you like it.

I'm not going to blow your theory off and not try it, but I have to ask a few questions first.

What home row are you talking about?  The number row (and calling it the home row)?  That's perfectly fine, I know this seems snarky, that's not the intent.  Just want to understand that it's a "new" home row while typing numbers.

Are you just typing a string of numbers with no other modifier use?  Using the numpad makes it exceptionally easy to enter data into excel, with easy access to tab, shift, enter, and the numbers (including '.').  How does using the number row help here?  This is by far the most common use of the numpad for myself and probably many others that do use the numpad regularly.

[smknjoe]

The home row is asdfghjkl; The goal of efficient typing is to try to not move your hands, only your fingers, from the home row. I use modifiers all of the time.

[katushkin]

Usually though, if you are inputting large amounts of numbers that you need to use the numpad for, they aren't interspersed with letters, so it makes sense you using the numpad. It's close to the arrows and your mouse, you don't need letters with numbers

I agree with the 1 next to 0 as well. The numpad is perfectly laid out for sums

[smknjoe]

Do they teach you to use the numpad instead of the number row in school now? It seems like since the early 2000's everyone started using the numpad as the standard method.

[smknjoe]

Usually though, if you are inputting large amounts of numbers that you need to use the numpad for, they aren't interspersed with letters, so it makes sense you using the numpad. It's close to the arrows and your mouse, you don't need letters with numbers

I agree with the 1 next to 0 as well. The numpad is perfectly laid out for sums

I can't argue with that really. I'm not an accountant or secretary though.

[Nai_Calus]

I'm 31. I started typing on boards that didn't have number pads, on Apple IIe/IIc computers in grade school. So I started without them. Used a laptop that for gods know what reason didn't have an embedded number pad exclusively for a few weeks a couple years back when I had nothing else. I hated it.

I'll use the number row once in a while for inserting a single one or two digit number, like say 7 or 39, in the middle of text. Three digits is middling, anything more and I'm definitely over on the number pad. Also alt codes of course can't be done with the number row and I use those a fair bit as well. ♪

I can touch type the number row, I just find the number pad infinitely faster and better for anything where I'm actually working with numbers. Or phone numbers or credit card numbers or anything like that. I've worked in call centers before and you end up with number pads with wear in addition to the spacebars and common letters, rofl.

[smknjoe]

Well, you know I'm not completely insane then. Most people think I am for not using a numpad (even when I can), and I get it.

I've seen those battle scarred keyboards too...the poor little bastards...

[Eszett]

Quite alot people here said, that numpad would be better positioned on the left side of the keyboard. I understand this, because by this, the right hand can rest on the mouse while the left hand is navigating with the arrows. But what about the arrow keys on a TKL, noone spoke about them? They should be on the left side too, for the same reason, right?

[jacobolus]

I understand that using the number row is very unpopular, but to say that it's harder to reach or inefficient in comparison is just "rationalization" at it's finest. Your hands don't even leave the home row if you use the number row. Try it sometime, really try it for a few days or weeks, and see how you like it.

Huh? I have 15+ years experience touch typing numbers on the number row, and I use the number row constantly while using standard keyboards..... but it sucks, every time. It requires moving the hands off the home row or twisting the wrist, typing more than 2-3 digits at a time is ridiculously slow and error prone – compared to numbers on a layer closer to the home row or compared to a separate numpad – and some of the numbers (especially 1, 6, and 7) are in very awkward positions. Typing a single digit is fine, but text with shifted-number symbols and frequent multi-digit numbers (not to mention writing mathematical formulae or transcribing numbers from forms, etc.) is a huge pain.

You should try putting numbers and symbols on a layer triggered by a fn key. It’s night-and-day better.

Similarly, everyone should move the arrows onto a shifted layer instead of using separate arrow keys, get a split spacebar to put the delete key on, stop using ctrl keys in the corners of the keyboard, etc.

Having all the functions of the keyboard with 40–60 keys in a compact reachable space, ideally with 3–6 keys easily reachable by each thumb, and using layers liberally is dramatically more efficient than using a keyboard with 80–120 keys.

[HoffmanMyster]

The home row is asdfghjkl; The goal of efficient typing is to try to not move your hands, only your fingers, from the home row. I use modifiers all of the time.

Okay, so we're on the same page with home row (or rather, I'm unconfused in that regard ).  But what?  If I'm going to input a whole bunch of data using the number row, I am definitely going to move my hands up to reach the number row better.  And then the reach to Enter is awkward.  I'm really not following how using the number row is supposed to be better.  Like I said, I'm interested in learning if you truly do have some nuggets of wisdom, but you're going to need to offer up some additional info here.

[katushkin]

Also, if you put in IP addresses, the full stop is even further away from the numbers than enter is. Having to press shift to gain access to the functions like equals and multiply is really counter productive as well.

I think the ability to memorise the distance between the numbers and not looking at the number row is a lot harder than learning the numpad.

[smknjoe]

I understand that using the number row is very unpopular, but to say that it's harder to reach or inefficient in comparison is just "rationalization" at it's finest. Your hands don't even leave the home row if you use the number row. Try it sometime, really try it for a few days or weeks, and see how you like it.

Huh? I have 15+ years experience touch typing numbers on the number row, and I use the number row constantly while using standard keyboards..... but it sucks, every time. It requires moving the hands off the home row or twisting the wrist, typing more than 2-3 digits at a time is ridiculously slow and error prone � compared to numbers on a layer closer to the home row or compared to a separate numpad � and some of the numbers (especially 1, 6, and 7) are in very awkward positions. Typing a single digit is fine, but text with shifted-number symbols and frequent multi-digit numbers (not to mention writing mathematical formulae or transcribing numbers from forms, etc.) is a huge pain.

You should try putting numbers and symbols on a layer triggered by a fn key. It�s night-and-day better.

Similarly, everyone should move the arrows onto a shifted layer instead of using separate arrow keys, get a split spacebar to put the delete key on, stop using ctrl keys in the corners of the keyboard, etc.

Having all the functions of the keyboard with 40�60 keys in a compact reachable space, ideally with 3�6 keys easily reachable by each thumb, and using layers liberally is dramatically more efficient than using a keyboard with 80�120 keys.

Huh? You just described my experience on the numpad. Error prone and awkward.

I program, fill in IP routing tables, and all kinds other stuff involving numbers and I'm perfectly comfortable and proficient with the number row. It's just a matter of personal preference. If you want to give it a shot this typing tutor really makes it easy to learn (more than the number row): http://www.typing-lessons.org/preliminaries_1.html

[jacobolus]

Huh? You just described my experience on the numpad. Error prone and awkward.

I promise you, that’s just lack of practice. For someone with equal amounts of practice on both, the numpad wins every time, hands down. (At least as long as all the input is numeric rather than a mix of numbers and words.)

[Asininity]

vintage Browns are the best switches.

FTFY

You mean Gaterons don't you?

Blacks are ****, vintage blacks are the ****.

Gateron blacks are the best **** out there.

I think my new found love for Gaterons might be a unpopular opinion in itself.

[Sigmoid]

I think tenkeyless is the most pointless form factor ever devised.

[ttzhou]

I think tenkeyless is the most pointless form factor ever devised.

 

you just win this thread.

[Bucake]

I think tenkeyless is the most pointless form factor ever devised.

i don't see how that can even be an actual opinion:
maybe you would never need it, but there are plenty of people who can really use the extra space that you win from removing the numpad.
many, many people never ever use the numpad. so you might as well have the opinion that full-sized is the most pointless form factor ever devised. obviously that would not be true either.
it's like saying a 4+ people car is pointless only because you don't have a family.
it's like saying noise-cancelling phones are pointless because you live in a very quiet environment.
i understand you might not benefit from the size of TKL, but it's ridiculous to say it's pointless.

[ttzhou]

^this is why that post wins the thread.

[HoffmanMyster]

I think tenkeyless is the most pointless form factor ever devised.

i don't see how that can even be an actual opinion:
maybe you would never need it, but there are plenty of people who can really use the extra space that you win from removing the numpad.
many, many people never ever use the numpad. so you might as well have the opinion that full-sized is the most pointless form factor ever devised. obviously that would not be true either.
it's like saying a 4+ people car is pointless only because you don't have a family.
it's like saying noise-cancelling phones are pointless because you live in a very quiet environment.
i understand you might not benefit from the size of TKL, but it's ridiculous to say it's pointless.

It's an opinion for his use.  He's not saying the form factor shouldn't exist, because obviously it should (people buy it because people like it).  But in his opinion it's dumb and worthless. 

For the record, I do not agree with this opinion.  )

[greath]

I think tenkeyless is the most pointless form factor ever devised.

i don't see how that can even be an actual opinion:
maybe you would never need it, but there are plenty of people who can really use the extra space that you win from removing the numpad.
many, many people never ever use the numpad. so you might as well have the opinion that full-sized is the most pointless form factor ever devised. obviously that would not be true either.
it's like saying a 4+ people car is pointless only because you don't have a family.
it's like saying noise-cancelling phones are pointless because you live in a very quiet environment.
i understand you might not benefit from the size of TKL, but it's ridiculous to say it's pointless.

Thought I personally love TKL, I can understand the viewpoint I think. In a world where we have fullsize and HappyHacker/60%, TKL probably isn't needed by most people.

[Herothereu]

I think 60% is the most pointless form factor ever devised.

FTFY

[Snarfangel]

DSA profile is the ugliest thing I have ever seen in my life. Not keycap profile, thing.

DSA keycaps are absolutely necessary!

Well, for some keyboards.  )

[Sigmoid]

i don't see how that can even be an actual opinion:
maybe you would never need it, but there are plenty of people who can really use the extra space that you win from removing the numpad.
many, many people never ever use the numpad. so you might as well have the opinion that full-sized is the most pointless form factor ever devised. obviously that would not be true either.
it's like saying a 4+ people car is pointless only because you don't have a family.
it's like saying noise-cancelling phones are pointless because you live in a very quiet environment.
i understand you might not benefit from the size of TKL, but it's ridiculous to say it's pointless.

Wow! It seems I did win. People have been flaming away at HHKBs, much-loved brands and community obsessions, and yet never got a single retort.

You don't understand my point. TKL is pointless not because it removes something, it is pointless because it removes the wrong thing. Look at the arrow key cluster. It's 3 full keys wide, and is full of keys I don't remember the last time I ever used. (The ones I do use, like Home, End or Delete, are too far away, and you need to move your wrist - having them on an Fn layer would be a lot more productive.) It also has a lot of empty space.

So what if you removed this, and left the numpad there? You'd get ALL THIS, plus a numpad instead of all the empty space, "Scroll lock" and "Pause/Break" (what does that even DO?)

TKL is pointless because on a numpad you have THE SAME THING (arrows, navigation, ins del), on top of the numbers themselves, in the same desk real estate.

[davkol]

You don't have an inverted-T arrow cluster in the tenkey.

[ttzhou]

You don't have an inverted-T arrow cluster in the tenkey.

this could be implemented, some CM storms do this.

[Sigmoid]

You don't have an inverted-T arrow cluster in the tenkey.

Hm. I never even considered the inverted-T as an advantage compared to the plus-shaped arrow cluster on the numpad.

I guess on a programmable board you could make 5 a down arrow. (Having a hardware implemented numlock would be necessary anyway, for OSX.)

[Nai_Calus]

I'm going to join the TKL hate. Want more space? Get a 60%. When was the last time you really used scroll lock or pause/break? Does Pause/Break even DO anything?

TK makes infinitely more sense than TKL to me. And retains a numberpad.

[ttzhou]

I'm going to join the TKL hate. Want more space? Get a 60%. When was the last time you really used scroll lock or pause/break? Does Pause/Break even DO anything?

TK makes infinitely more sense than TKL to me. And retains a numberpad.

Home, Del, End, Pg[UpDn] and arrow keys are useful rather than having to use a button to activate a second layer when you are working with a GUI. but yes, for linux and command-line, 60% is king. unfortunately most people are forced to use winblows at work and it can get quite annoying doing certain tasks without those keys.

[Firebolt1914]

Cherry switches are actually pretty bad. Same goes for Topre.

[unoab]

You don't have an inverted-T arrow cluster in the tenkey.

Hm. I never even considered the inverted-T as an advantage compared to the plus-shaped arrow cluster on the numpad.

I guess on a programmable board you could make 5 a down arrow. (Having a hardware implemented numlock would be necessary anyway, for OSX.)

it doesn't even have to be that high up in the tenkey, you could do something like I have on my phantom where fn2 toggles the 2nd function layer that just switches between an arrow cluster or numpad (oh, and I always have numlock enabled so the numpad is just strictly numbers):

[demik]

Blacks are ****, vintage blacks are the ****.

Vintage Blacks are a placebo.

years of friction wear down the stems

Also, Gaterons are not as smooth as people claim.

)

yeah but buying them NOS, changing the spring and then preaching about how great the "vintage" switch is, is crap and just sheep repeating what they read.

a lot of people believe because it's old it's the same thing, and it's not. but nobody ever listens to me.

[sethk_]

Blacks are ****, vintage blacks are the ****.

Vintage Blacks are a placebo.

years of friction wear down the stems

Also, Gaterons are not as smooth as people claim.

)

yeah but buying them NOS, changing the spring and then preaching about how great the "vintage" switch is, is crap and just sheep repeating what they read.

a lot of people believe because it's old it's the same thing, and it's not. but nobody ever listens to me.

I personally haven't done anything to my vintage blacks yet, I have only typed on the board they came on, and now I have started desoldering them. I know mine are so smooth because of years of wear, as with any other switch that is old.

[Nai_Calus]

I've got one. Spacebars, as currently implemented, are stupid beyond belief and need to die in a fire. 6.25 is bad, 7 even moreso, 6 is still ridiculous. There's a massive, massive amount of thumb space that could be used for useful things like shift or enter or backspace or other actually useful things instead of killing your pinkies using them while exactly one of your thumbs does anything at all, and generally does it in a space less than 3u wide. The shiny spot on the ABS spacebar I have on a board is less than 2u, actually, right below v and b.

The right hand bottom mods are pointless and something more useful should be put there. Right shift is also pointless for me, but I realize some people use it, but it really does not need to be that big.

Here, have this: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/dbd75b62a6807de3d92801452e5c976c

Flip the Fn-ness of the arrows and nav keys if you like. Yes, yes, I'm the only one who uses the spacebar left handed, swap that and backspace if you want. I know there's redundant keys on this, I'm lazy at the moment. I still don't really advocate this because row staggering like a typewriter is stupid, but at least it does something slight less dumb with the bottom row than using most of it for one giant key.

[rsac]

Making a chorus with Nai_Calus: there is no point in making custom keyboards with custom PCBs and key plates and not using the oportunity to at least split the spacebar.

Keeping the typewriter staggering at least has the argument of muscle memory, but if you will already overwrite part of your muscle memory with layers in a 40~70% board, then why not go all the way?

[LouisHjelmslev]

After reading a few replies here, I say kudos to limitz for the post. 
By essentially prefacing all opinions as 'unpopular', people are actually productively discussing personal keyboard preferences! Unpopular puffin to the rescue!

[Bucake]

i don't see how that can even be an actual opinion:
maybe you would never need it, but there are plenty of people who can really use the extra space that you win from removing the numpad.
many, many people never ever use the numpad. so you might as well have the opinion that full-sized is the most pointless form factor ever devised. obviously that would not be true either.
it's like saying a 4+ people car is pointless only because you don't have a family.
it's like saying noise-cancelling phones are pointless because you live in a very quiet environment.
i understand you might not benefit from the size of TKL, but it's ridiculous to say it's pointless.

Wow! It seems I did win. People have been flaming away at HHKBs, much-loved brands and community obsessions, and yet never got a single retort.

You don't understand my point. TKL is pointless not because it removes something, it is pointless because it removes the wrong thing. Look at the arrow key cluster. It's 3 full keys wide, and is full of keys I don't remember the last time I ever used. (The ones I do use, like Home, End or Delete, are too far away, and you need to move your wrist - having them on an Fn layer would be a lot more productive.) It also has a lot of empty space.

So what if you removed this, and left the numpad there? You'd get ALL THIS, plus a numpad instead of all the empty space, "Scroll lock" and "Pause/Break" (what does that even DO?)

TKL is pointless because on a numpad you have THE SAME THING (arrows, navigation, ins del), on top of the numbers themselves, in the same desk real estate.

you have a point, especially since TKL indeed has that unused space.
personally i use home, del and home alot. as well as arrow keys. i know a numpad has these keys, but since i've used the standard layout for about 20 years, i don't feel like changing the layout (tenkey vs tenkeyless).
i would not mind, at all, to adapt to someting new, but since i would only use home, del, end and the arrow keys of the numpad, there would really not be a point for me to change to a tenkey layout.

i guess i agree with you in the way that i think that TenKey makes more sense (less/no unused space, more keys).
personally, i'm sticking to TKL because the extra keys on a TenKey would not get any usage anyway, plus i'm used to TKL/full-sized layout.


as for the argument that there is 60%, well, i use my arrow keys a ton, as well as home, del and end.
not many, if any, 60% boards have these keys dedicated. i have, and love, 60% boards, but i always miss those dedicated keys while i am using that form factor.
i guess something like the hhkb with hasu's controller would be perfect for me, when it comes to layout. unfortunately i'll need to teach myself to build firmware first.

[steve.v]

1. Dislike boards greater than 60%. I don't understand why people would need so many keys to be productive. I can access everything in the letter columns via programmable; heck my space bar acts as a super key.

2. Dislike Cherry MX keys; too plastic feeling and cheap.

[jonathanyu]

I can't feel the difference between lubed MX black and stock MX black, unless they are lubed with super thick lube.

Now a really unpopular one... I like new MX brown

[nubbinator]

I can't feel the difference between lubed MX black and stock MX black, unless they are lubed with super thick lube.

Now a really unpopular one... I like new MX brown

You monster!

[chive_]

40% keyboards might look cool, but their functionality is far too limited making them useless.

[ttzhou]

40% keyboards might look cool, but their functionality is far too limited making them useless.

not unpopular, more like... people too afraid to say it haha.

[wlhlm]

40% keyboards might look cool, but their functionality is far too limited making them useless.

Intended?

[Bludude4]

SA is underrated.

[appleonama]

55g topre is horrible

[jonathanyu]

I can't feel the difference between lubed MX black and stock MX black, unless they are lubed with super thick lube.

Now a really unpopular one... I like new MX brown

You monster!

  )  everyone should enjoy that crispy feeling

[nubbinator]

SA is underrated.

Nothing unpopular about that.  There's an SA circlejerk right now.  I think it's way overrated.

55g topre is horrible

I can't stand Topre outside of the HHKB.  Realforce, FC660C, and Novatouch were all miserable to me.

I can't feel the difference between lubed MX black and stock MX black, unless they are lubed with super thick lube.

Now a really unpopular one... I like new MX brown

You monster!

  )  everyone should enjoy that crispy crunchy feeling

There you go   

[noons]

I dislike cherry mx blue's.

[wlhlm]

I dislike cherry mx blue's.

Have to agree. I'm mostly wearing headphones when in front of the computer which dampens the click a lot and then I realized that they don't feel a lot different than Browns.

[BrewCaps]

Pok3r is all hype.

[katushkin]

Pok3r is all hype.

I've never liked the Poker 2 really anyway...