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geekhack Projects => Making Stuff Together! => Topic started by: bpiphany on Tue, 18 December 2012, 18:50:07

Title: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: bpiphany on Tue, 18 December 2012, 18:50:07: Trying to come up with ideas on how to incorporate arrow keys on a Poker sized board. Please help me out =) Focus on the space bar row, there is of course nothing stopping an ISO return, or a split left shift, split backspace, split ANSI return and so on...
[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: kmiller8 on Tue, 18 December 2012, 19:23:59: 1.5, 1, 1.5, 7, 1
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: BiNiaRiS on Wed, 19 December 2012, 01:49:34: I'd actually be a fan of 1.5 - 1.5 - 6 - 1.5 - 1.5 - 1 - 1 - 1 (kmiller8's option is good as well).

6 unit spacebars are a little harder to source but there's lots of cherry boards out there that came with them.

in the end though, it really throws off the symmetry of the board as a whole so it's a hard decision for me.
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Wed, 19 December 2012, 02:35:37: Quote from: BiNiaRiS on Wed, 19 December 2012, 01:49:34
I'd actually be a fan of 1.5 - 1.5 - 6 - 1.5 - 1.5 - 1 - 1 - 1 (kmiller8's option is good as well).

This sounds like a decent option, but where are we going to get a spacebar exactly in size 6x? We'll be forced to buy an old cherry board just for the spacebar. I think building it around the standard 6.25x or 7x space bar would be a better option.
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: bpiphany on Wed, 19 December 2012, 04:53:16: Quote from: kmiller8 on Tue, 18 December 2012, 19:23:59
1.5, 1, 1.5, 7, 1

This of course works well, as do 1.25+1.25+1.25+6.25+1.00+1.00+1.00+1.00+1.00 without altering the symmetry of the spacebar location, or using any funky size keys. It also allows "vim style" arrow keys, with a regular shift row.
[attachimg=1]

(Look at all those 1.00X keys!)
[attachimg=2]

Quote from: BiNiaRiS on Wed, 19 December 2012, 01:49:34
I'd actually be a fan of 1.5 - 1.5 - 6 - 1.5 - 1.5 - 1 - 1 - 1 (kmiller8's option is good as well).

6 unit spacebars are a little harder to source but there's lots of cherry boards out there that came with them.

in the end though, it really throws off the symmetry of the board as a whole so it's a hard decision for me.

I think that as long as it is a size SP supplies there is no big problem. In the end there would need to be keys with custom printing made anyway (doesn't really apply to spacebar of course..). And the shift keys are also non-standard widths.
[attachimg=3]

My best effort keeping as many of the modifiers as possible is to use a 4.50 spacebar. I don't know if this is Japanese standard in general, but Filco uses them on their boards, and they are also available from SP. I also tend to use only my right thumb for space myself, but that could probably be trained away =)
[attachimg=4]
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: bpiphany on Wed, 19 December 2012, 05:01:21: 1.00X hell =D
[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 19 December 2012, 05:31:43: Quote from: bpiphany on Wed, 19 December 2012, 05:01:21
1.00X hell =D
(Attachment Link)
wants! So when is comin out?
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 19 December 2012, 08:49:56: I believe this is what you were looking for:

(http://i.imgur.com/n8kWt.png)
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: SmallFry on Wed, 19 December 2012, 08:51:42: ORLY? 7bit dis board?
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 19 December 2012, 08:54:04: Quote from: SmallFry on Wed, 19 December 2012, 08:51:42
ORLY? 7bit dis board?

Not exactly. I was thinking of somJPthing else.
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: SmallFry on Wed, 19 December 2012, 08:54:45: Hmm... JDCapruple Layout! :P
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: kmiller8 on Wed, 19 December 2012, 08:55:29: Quote from: bpiphany on Wed, 19 December 2012, 04:53:16
This of course works well, as do 1.25+1.25+1.25+6.25+1.00+1.00+1.00+1.00+1.00 without altering the symmetry of the spacebar location, or using any funky size keys. It also allows "vim style" arrow keys, with a regular shift row.

That was my second opinion, but that's way too many 1x keys for me :p
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: SmallFry on Wed, 19 December 2012, 08:56:31: The split shift of this board would drive me bonkers... I like the idea a lot though... DARN YOU BIPHANY!
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 19 December 2012, 08:58:19: You'll just learn to use L_SHIFT exclusively.
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: SmallFry on Wed, 19 December 2012, 08:59:53: This is true... I took my shift off of my board to make myself learn to use the left one since my right hand cramps from pressing shift constantly...
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: nullstring on Wed, 19 December 2012, 10:17:26: Does anyone have the layout of the standard filco defined this way?
I have a good idea, but I've never tried to define it like this.
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: nullstring on Wed, 19 December 2012, 10:31:09: Also, are L_shifts usually 2.25? the layouts above don't look right.
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 19 December 2012, 10:38:19: Yes, L_SHIFT is normally 2.25. HHKB Pro JP-layout L_SHIFT is 2.00. My layout with the 2.50 SPACE mimics the HHKB Pro JP.

(http://i.imgur.com/52HN3.jpg)
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: nullstring on Wed, 19 December 2012, 11:08:00: Ah, ok. Thanks jdcarpe.
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: nullstring on Wed, 19 December 2012, 11:32:57: So, I got bored at work.
I can't upload files from here, so I created a perl script that will make a text representation of a layout from a CSV.

Here is the standard (poker) layout
Code: [Select]
[1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][ 2 ] (15) [1.5 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1.5 ] (15) [1.75 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][ 2.25 ] (15) [ 2.25 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][ 2.75 ] (15) [ ][ ][ ][ 6.25 ][ ][ ][ ][ ] (15) 61 keys
Here is the layout I like.
Keeping the standard 2.25 L_shift, but "splitting?" the shift to make an up arrow key to the left of it.

Code: [Select]
[1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ] (15) [1.5 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1.5 ] (15) [1.75 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][ 2.25 ] (15) [ 2.25 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1 ][1.75 ] (15) [ ][ ][ ][ 6.25 ][ ][1 ][1 ][1 ] (14.25) 63 keys
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: tufty on Wed, 19 December 2012, 15:11:56: The Apple "standard" keyboard layout is quite nice, once you get used to it,
(http://i.imgur.com/TAJn2.png)
And here's a little something I've been working on. Obviously it won't really be qwerty, but I chucked in some keycaps anyway.
(http://i.imgur.com/hzQIy.png)
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: bpiphany on Wed, 19 December 2012, 18:28:57: Quote from: nullstring on Wed, 19 December 2012, 10:17:26
Does anyone have the layout of the standard filco defined this way?
I have a good idea, but I've never tried to define it like this.

I use XKB in Linux to draw the layouts. It's a bit awkward in a c way. Here are some of my files on github https://github.com/BathroomEpiphanies/XKB-Layouts Edit: I added the layouts with widths as labels.

There is also the profosist way of mega arrows (he's the one I've been seeing posting it at least)
[attachimg=1]

Quote from: tufty on Wed, 19 December 2012, 15:11:56
And here's a little something I've been working on. Obviously it won't really be qwerty, but I chucked in some keycaps anyway.

And my own darling. I use something similar at least.
[attachimg=2]

The vim style arrows are kind of growing on me. They feel like the lesser mess-up of the rest of the layout. And obviously people have learned to use them before...

Quote from: jdcarpe on Wed, 19 December 2012, 10:38:19
Yes, L_SHIFT is normally 2.25. HHKB Pro JP-layout L_SHIFT is 2.00. My layout with the 2.50 SPACE mimics the HHKB Pro JP.

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/52HN3.jpg)

SP doesn't carry actual spacebars (convex surface) in 2.50. I use concave thumb keys myself, and don't find it too bad. I'm however not sure how I would play with such a narrow space in the middle. I actually do use a 2.00 space right now, it's straight under my thumb, but I guess it is also only a matter of some practice =)
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 19 December 2012, 19:43:02: Quote from: bpiphany on Wed, 19 December 2012, 18:28:57
There is also the profosist way of mega arrows (he's the one I've been seeing posting it at least)
(Attachment Link)
well with that layout i would use right alt for fn and set P, L, ;, ' as arrows or use the 1x next to rshift and use [, ;, ', enter or yo ucould just use RShift, RWin, Menu, RCtrl. My prefered layout is with 1.25x enter then its exactly like my phantom and you dont have to use enter for right arrow when using the fn to the right of RShift.

Hopfully this all make sence if yo uneed pics let me know ive done a few different layouts.
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: Tranquilite on Fri, 21 December 2012, 03:40:44: If you want to implement arrow keys in one of these compact layouts, then I would almost recommend trying to implement something like the TG3 BL82 (http://www.overclock.net/attachments/keyboards/183458d1291592266-mechanical-keyboard-club-bl82_001.jpg). The biggest problem with said layout is that half a unit is cut off from each side to add in one more column of keys which makes sourcing keycaps a pain (and is a much more drastic change than just filling in the bottom row :D). However, the plus side is you get a right shift which is larger than one unit, as well as some extra keys to work with (I really like having home and end available as I use them quite frequently).

Otherwise I would probably just go with the mega-arrow layout.
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: bpiphany on Fri, 21 December 2012, 09:01:29: Hmm, very interesting.. That layout is actually still 15 keys wide. They have just reduced the wider keys by a half on each end. I don't think I would even start to try to combine that on the same PCB as a regular layout though...

SP actually have narrower keys in their LP families as well. They are only for ML switches of course. http://keycapsdirect.com/pdfs/LPFamily13.pdf
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: laffindude on Fri, 21 December 2012, 10:16:32: Quote from: bpiphany on Wed, 19 December 2012, 04:53:16

My best effort keeping as many of the modifiers as possible is to use a 4.50 spacebar. I don't know if this is Japanese standard in general, but Filco uses them on their boards, and they are also available from SP. I also tend to use only my right thumb for space myself, but that could probably be trained away =)
(Attachment Link)

That front row pretty much what I suggested for the coming 60% board (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=37444.0;attach=7977;image), but I think it is too late make it into production. I'd split the LShift and have FN on the extreme ends of 2nd row, and split the backspace into 2. A big block of 1x keys make them hard to find without looking.

Another idea I had was the 1.25x keys like above but add 2 1x keys to either side of the space bar as FN. Need to shrink a 1.25x to 1x (preferably on the right side) to fit it then use 2.75x RShift for spacebar.

I like your 1x hell too btw.
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: simkev on Wed, 26 December 2012, 14:36:38: This is what I will be doing with my HyperMini
Maybe you can be inspired by my space row (http://i.imgur.com/XIOOX.jpg)
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: multipla on Wed, 26 December 2012, 15:54:19: I'll be doing something like this with the GH60:
(the preview somehow doesn't work for me, here's the link to the picture: http://i.imgur.com/IWv3v.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/IWv3v.png)
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: bpiphany on Sat, 29 December 2012, 02:39:20: A normal day at home...
[attachimg=1]

The PCB I am working at at the moment only have room in the matrix for 12 keys in the spacebar row. So anything more than that is not going to happen this time... The first challenge is to separate all switch locations into 12 distinct groups, that doesn't overlap. After that there is the problem of actually fitting them onto a PCB as well, and hooking everything up, and not just routing a slot all across the whole thing =D And don't even mention PCB mount stabilizers x_x
[attach=2]

Of course all those 2x keys combine into 6x spacebars.
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: The_Beast on Sat, 29 December 2012, 02:46:58: Why not just use a layer and the WASD keys?

That's my plan for the GH60
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: bpiphany on Sat, 29 December 2012, 02:50:17: Too easy, and still possible. The game is to cram as much options as possible onto the same PCB ;D
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: The_Beast on Sat, 29 December 2012, 02:52:38: Quote from: bpiphany on Sat, 29 December 2012, 02:50:17
Too easy, and still possible. The game is to cram as much options as possible onto the same PCB ;D

1x EVERYTHING

lol
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: bpiphany on Sat, 29 December 2012, 02:58:49: That either creates a 5x15 matrix layout or isn't possible, depending on how you mean. Allowing all combination of key widths requires switch locations in-between the 1x locations. And routing works pretty bad with all those holes...
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: bpiphany on Sat, 29 December 2012, 06:10:55: I think The_Beast may be onto something here... No-one is ever going to need to ask me to do another PCB design =D There should be room for diodes I think, and it could of course be expanded to fit navigation keys and numpad. 2X high keys with switches in-between rows may be a bit tricky, but the common ones for ISO return and numpad plus and enter may be possible to squeeze in. The controller will need to have it's own daughter board, but it might be possible to arrange for some nifty interface between them... Just to up the insanity a notch - Bathroom Epiphanies presents the Ültimäte Prototype Board...
[attach=1]
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: simkev on Sat, 29 December 2012, 06:55:39: Quote from: bpiphany on Sat, 29 December 2012, 06:10:55
I think The_Beast may be onto something here... No-one is ever going to need to ask me to do another PCB design =D There should be room for diodes I think, and it could of course be expanded to fit navigation keys and numpad. 2X high keys with switches in-between rows may be a bit tricky, but the common ones for ISO return and numpad plus and enter may be possible to squeeze in. The controller will need to have it's own daughter board, but it might be possible to arrange for some nifty interface between them... Just to up the insanity a notch - Bathroom Epiphanies presents the Ültimäte Prototype Board...
(Attachment Link)
Now make it Phantom size :-X
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: reverkiller on Sat, 29 December 2012, 07:41:56: Will those really long holes compromise the structural integrity of the board?

I think that will put flex in the Poker to shame :p
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: bpiphany on Sat, 29 December 2012, 07:57:24: The holes aren't really that long. They are more like perforations. All switch center holes are only 1mm to be drilled by the prototyper with a 4mm drill where required. This will let the traces run between the pilot holes as well. Preferably multiple sets for each trace so one of them will always survive...

Here is the full size, it will need a custom prototype case as well... 6x23 matrix =)

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: simkev on Sat, 29 December 2012, 09:08:37: Quote from: bpiphany on Sat, 29 December 2012, 07:57:24
The holes aren't really that long. They are more like perforations. All switch center holes are only 1mm to be drilled by the prototyper with a 4mm drill where required. This will let the traces run between the pilot holes as well. Preferably multiple sets for each trace so one of them will always survive...

Here is the full size, it will need a custom prototype case as well... 6x23 matrix =)

(Attachment Link)
Will the pcb be the same size as phantom? If so, you could just dremel out the needed plastic out of a filco tkl case.
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: bpiphany on Sat, 29 December 2012, 10:18:23: No, the spacing to the function row and to the numpad and navblock is not exactly in eigths of 0.75" on the Filco. They fluked out on that detail.
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 29 December 2012, 10:20:19: That thing is just beautiful...
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: bpiphany on Sat, 29 December 2012, 12:31:08: I'm having so much fun... =) But I don't know if I could show these files to anyone not as crazy as us here =P I changed the spacing to 19mm instead of 0.75" = 19.05mm. I need to take a closer look at the Filco. It may just be that this would fit better...
[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 29 December 2012, 12:35:18: Well, I'm in for a prototyping board. :)
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: bpiphany on Sat, 29 December 2012, 13:15:11: I'm not that sure of it... It would require drilling somewhere ~100 4mm holes to start with =P

Edit: 800 posts \o/ calls for something memorable!
[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: bpiphany on Sun, 30 December 2012, 12:57:26: I think this will sell as butter in sunlight (as we say here in Sweden...)

[attachimg=1]

I also think it should be possible to wire the controller in with only 11 wires, using the multiplexers that I threw onto there.
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: reverkiller on Sun, 30 December 2012, 13:18:23: In for 1 :)
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 30 December 2012, 14:44:47: Ok, I gotta have one now.

Using 3x 74HC138 for decode/demux? Or is that last one a thru-hole controller?
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: simkev on Sun, 30 December 2012, 15:02:41: Quote from: bpiphany on Sun, 30 December 2012, 12:57:26
I think this will sell as butter in sunlight (as we say here in Sweden...)

(Attachment Link)

I also think it should be possible to wire the controller in with only 11 wires, using the multiplexers that I threw onto there.
So maybe the rumored Phantom 2 would be called The Asylum?
Just make it with the controller and a mini usb port on the pcb and I will definitely buy the smör.
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: bpiphany on Sun, 30 December 2012, 15:03:14: Yes three HC138s. The matrix is 6 rows by 23 columns. The multiplexers together give 1 of 24 selectable low outputs using only 5 data channels. And I forgot about VCC and GND, so with the 6 rows there are 13 wires required for the interface. Perhaps it is even possible to fit a Teensy somewhere on the backside. 1 byte for selecting column, and 1 byte to read all the rows. Can't get much more simple to code =)

I wonder what the manufacturer would have to say about the 3500 drill holes =P
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: simkev on Sun, 30 December 2012, 16:29:10: Couldn't you use the ATmega32u4 chip?
There is already some knowledge around here for programming those.
And you should consider mounting the usb jack on the "front" side of the pcb. So that the jack goes between the pcb and the mounting plate. Would open up possibilities for slim nice cases.
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: bpiphany on Sun, 30 December 2012, 22:53:49: Teensy = ATmega32u4.. ; ) The main reason to use it is to keep everything through hole. And with a Teensy it's a bit tricky to get the USB lines down on the PCB, unless you do a similar hack to the ErgoDox of course.
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: simkev on Thu, 03 January 2013, 08:12:43: Quote from: bpiphany on Sun, 30 December 2012, 22:53:49
Teensy = ATmega32u4.. ; ) The main reason to use it is to keep everything through hole. And with a Teensy it's a bit tricky to get the USB lines down on the PCB, unless you do a similar hack to the ErgoDox of course.
I know that thats the chip used on the Teensy, what I meant was that the chip should go directly on the board. Just like the GH60 :p
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: bpiphany on Sun, 06 January 2013, 07:06:46: Putting the controller on a daughter board let's you use any one you like, and that is a good thing. I also don't want to break the through hole pattern of the project =) And also if the Teensy is discontinued, it's always possible to build something similar yourself. And I don't feel like spending time on building the circuit... And as of now, the interface is by 2 connectors, no soldering the Teensy directly onto the main board.

Here is a proof of concept driving 24 columns with only 5 outputs
Not a valid vimeo URL
If there is logic for 24 columns, why not make it 24 columns?...
[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: phetto on Sun, 06 January 2013, 07:19:19: I will support whatever layout you chose and try to grab a piece. :)
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: samwisekoi on Sun, 06 January 2013, 11:11:35: How about this? The RH column above the arrows is re-labelable. The dual blank 1.75 keys combine to be a space bar. No stabilizers are used in this design.

[attach=1]
Super 60 Keyboard by samwisekoi

- Ron | samwisekoi
(http://www.samwisekoi.com/pixelart/Leo.png)
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: simkev on Sun, 06 January 2013, 15:55:28: Quote from: bpiphany on Sun, 06 January 2013, 07:06:46
Putting the controller on a daughter board let's you use any one you like, and that is a good thing. I also don't want to break the through hole pattern of the project =) And also if the Teensy is discontinued, it's always possible to build something similar yourself. And I don't feel like spending time on building the circuit... And as of now, the interface is by 2 connectors, no soldering the Teensy directly onto the main board.

Here is a proof of concept driving 24 columns with only 5 outputs
Not a valid vimeo URL
If there is logic for 24 columns, why not make it 24 columns?...
(Attachment Link)
Looking nice, are you still considering a break-off-able 4x6 keys to get a tkl and a numpad?
Title: Re: Fill in the missing keys
Post by: pasph on Sun, 06 January 2013, 17:55:52: Quote from: samwisekoi on Sun, 06 January 2013, 11:11:35
How about this? The RH column above the arrows is re-labelable. The dual blank 1.75 keys combine to be a space bar. No stabilizers are used in this design.

(Attachment Link)
Super 60 Keyboard by samwisekoi

- Ron | samwisekoi
Show Image
(http://www.samwisekoi.com/pixelart/Leo.png)

I want one