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geekhack Community => Ergonomics => Topic started by: iso on Thu, 29 November 2018, 01:11:00
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:thumb: My search for a better mouse is over, this offers me unparalel way to adjust my mouse, standing up, high or low desk position, relaxing back on the chair or very close to the screen, this works with everything.
Teensy 2.0 - https://www.pjrc.com/store/teensy.html
Sensor - https://www.tindie.com/products/jkicklighter/pmw3360-motion-sensor/
Hook up instructions and original firmware/post form a different user - https://www.overclock.net/forum/375-mice/1588408-teensy-mod-firmware-g100s-13.html
This is a continuation from my previous post, upgraded ergonomic mouse - https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=93783.0
I re-modelled the shell, new base, new sensor container and scrolling style, using ballheads joint style I managed to make the device ultra adjustable.
The hand piece moves indepenendently from the base and can be locked into place when the hand is in confortable position
The 3 finger cluster left/mid/right click is also movable.
The thumb cluster to scroll up/down is adjustable
Button height/travel distance is customizable
Sensor container moves independently from the base and can be locked into place.
I used reed switches for the left/mid/right buttons
The button springness is given by 2x5mm cubic magnets repelling eachother - Very smooth movement
No clicking noise whatsoever
Brass joints for the button levers, not plastic on plastic
Firmware allows to switch DPIs and there will be a RGB led indicator - See original post on overclock.net
The whole mouse require about 22 parts to be printed
On my Tevo little monster took about 12 hr at 0.2 layer height, 60% infill, 230 degree, medium gray PLA, slowed down to 50mm/sec just so doesnt fail for whatever weird reason and there is lots of overhangs for the hand support piece.
Palm size 170mm long, 110wide
Used flathead 4/40 brass machined nut/bolt
If your hand is little smaller/larger you wont have to resize the model, anything 20mm larger/smaller, you should resize the model, or just print it and keep it around as a piece of art :)
Most expensive parts are the electronics, sensor and teensy, round the price for all parts together, about $50 .
Most time consumming is the modelling, took several months and "wasted" 1kg of filament.
For those who will have to resize the model, I hope you`re decent modeller because is gonna hurt trying to keep some of the original sizes without completelly destrying it.
Modelling done on 3ds max.
Questions ?
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Ich weiß, dass diese Site eine große Site zum Datenaustausch ist, also habe ich mehr Informationen recherchiert, um sie mit Menschen außerhalb zu teilen.
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Thank you for sharing. That palm rest is mesmerizing. If you don't mind me asking, what kind of process did it take to design this shape? Was it more parametric approach or freehand design with trial and error?
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Thank you for sharing. That palm rest is mesmerizing. If you don't mind me asking, what kind of process did it take to design this shape? Was it more parametric approach or freehand design with trial and error?
You welcome. Triel end error.
Stretch you arm in front of you and shake your palm.
Look at your palm, that is the natural state your fingers rest, if you deviate from that, you`ll be forced to claw/grip the device.
Took few weeks of modelling, printing, throwing the piece away then fixing things, little by little I got to the shape you see.
That addreses the hand shape, wrist position is adjustable from the base ballhead hand support joint.
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I printed the second piece using PETG
Here`s the detailed pictures, I know they not perfect.
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This is very cool. How long have you been using it now? I'm glad you went with no clicking because I've thought about printing my own mouse just to have silent switches. Are you happy with how it is now or do you have further plans for the project?
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I`ve been using it for little over a month now. I found out that the 1x1mm magnet is very hard to position just right to trigger the reed switch, mainly because I use magnets to cushion the button action and those are 5x5mm, enough to trigger the reeds from over 3cm away
I will be adding a new printable model where the user can switch from reed to DigiKey part # SW986-ND lever switch, fairly cheap and readily available
And one other, which will make positioning the magnet lots easier, hall effect sensor which require some code change in the firmware.
So whoever wants to put this together for themselves, will have 3 options to choose from, reed switch, lever switch (clicky) and hall sensor.
This is the most customizable mouse ever, where you can choose electronics and ergonomics.
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This is extremely impressive good job !!!!
May i know how different is the firmware from you use in your original thread on overclock forums?
Do you think one could adapt your project to make a gaming mouse? i mean is the sensor able to react to very fast movements and do you think adding a way to store keypresses for the mouse buttons is even doable?
Cheers.
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This is the most impressive mouse design I've seen in my lifetime. There's nothing that comes close. You're doing so many things right with this. I love this.
I'll be definitely printing this, and posting feedback. I literally crave to make it my daily driver.
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This is extremely impressive good job !!!!
May i know how different is the firmware from you use in your original thread on overclock forums?
Do you think one could adapt your project to make a gaming mouse? i mean is the sensor able to react to very fast movements and do you think adding a way to store keypresses for the mouse buttons is even doable?
Cheers.
Hi, thanks for the kind words.
The firmware hasnt changed one bit, its exactly the way was uploaded by the original poster.
I`ve never added the RGB led and the DPI switching buttons, I dont really care about any lights or DPI on the fly for now, so that bit is the only part I cant tell if is working or not.
I`m gaming with the mouse right now, I play fast paced games, Quake live and slow paced games, Portal/Half life 2, I never noticed any problems with the sensor/device, check the manufacturer`s website on Tindie for technical details, G forces and DPI limits. If you google the sensor name you will find lots of gaming mice that uses the same sensor, they designed a device around the sensor... minus the ergonomics.
With this sensor you`re only using about 8 pins on the Teensy 2.0, there is plenty left to add extra functionality/buttons/macros.
If you do so, let us know hows working for you so we can make this better, I hope this answers your questions.
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This is the most impressive mouse design I've seen in my lifetime. There's nothing that comes close. You're doing so many things right with this. I love this.
I'll be definitely printing this, and posting feedback. I literally crave to make it my daily driver.
Thank you
I`m working on a keyboard right now but soon I will add a new way to scroll and there will be a new interchangeable thumb part that uses reed/hall effect switching instead of regular round buttons which will fail sooner or later.
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Here is the new interchangeable cluster finger bit that uses lever switches instead of the magnetic switches.
Is lots easier to use, position and modify, not so many moving parts to adjust to perfection.
This is what im using right now myself.
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I'm tempted to design a few accessories for this, but this will have to wait for a few months due to ongoing work.
I always liked trackpoints for scrolling. Lots of fine control over speed, direction and acceleration.
IBM used to have one on the MO09BO: https://www.amazon.com/Genuine-IBM-Illuminating-Optical-41A4932/dp/B007TWBUY2
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I'm tempted to design a few accessories for this, but this will have to wait for a few months due to ongoing work.
I always liked trackpoints for scrolling. Lots of fine control over speed, direction and acceleration.
IBM used to have one on the MO09BO: https://www.amazon.com/Genuine-IBM-Illuminating-Optical-41A4932/dp/B007TWBUY2
The IBM mice got a 4 way tactile switch for scrolling, whole new bunch of electronics and usb cable. You can do the same on same teensy with the switch you want for max $2. I guess what im saying, is it worth it to buy that and take it apart and modify it ?
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/10-pin-10x10mm-smd-smt-multi_1597959788.html
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These mice I linked didn't have a switch - they had a trackpoint-like bar you could put your finger on and scroll up/down with varying force.
Regarding scrolling, I'd opt for something analog. So trackpoint or an analogue thumb joystick. Or maybe a trackball, or single axis optical encoder wheel like in ball mice. Depends on what's more easily available.
Analog input lets you scroll smoothly in all directions, and vary the scroll speed from slow to extremely fast. You're essentially inputting a force as a variable, rather than impulsing with a switch (or a scroll wheel).
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I don't really care for the feel of the metal switch levers. Would it be possible to request a version of the finger cluster for the lever switches that uses the keys from the original (or that use non-lever switches)?
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I don't really care for the feel of the metal switch levers. Would it be possible to request a version of the finger cluster for the lever switches that uses the keys from the original (or that use non-lever switches)?
Hi
Both versions are available in OBJ format, (reed and lever) download whichever you need, they interchangeable.
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Did you have to convert the teensy to 3.3v?
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Is there a picture or video of your hand on the mouse? I can't figure it out.
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This is how you hold it / how it looks assembled. I'm still working on mine. My apologies to ISO for modifying his beautiful and original design with a hatchet.
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I think I've answered my own question about the 3.3v regulator - not needed for compatibility with the 3360.
iso - Can you confirm whether you're using the PMW3360DM firmware posted by gipetto or the g102 firmware by qsxcv? You're using the timed debounce rather than the hardware debounce, correct?
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Is there a picture or video of your hand on the mouse? I can't figure it out.
Please check my first post at the bottom, look for * MEM 01 functional.mp4 *
That is with the reed magnetic switches, later on I added the lever switches and the model
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I think I've answered my own question about the 3.3v regulator - not needed for compatibility with the 3360.
iso - Can you confirm whether you're using the PMW3360DM firmware posted by gipetto or the g102 firmware by qsxcv? You're using the timed debounce rather than the hardware debounce, correct?
Hi.
1. g102 firmware by qsxcv.
2. Timed.
I was about to create a new document, to explain the way qsxcv explained how to put it together but im burried with things to do and I have to prioritise
How does the shell feel for you ?
Thanks for beign the first to give it a try and post pictures.
Just because I did it first does not mean im the best at it, all modifications are welcome and I hope I see more of it so everyone benefits from better design/functionality
NOTE: If you`re using to print this with layer higher than 0.2, its gonna be very hard to fit the electronics inside, everything its pretty tight too keep it from rattling. I guess I should have specified that before, the shell for sensor/teensy and switches needs to be printed at 0.2 or lower.
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Hi.
1. g102 firmware by qsxcv.
2. Timed.
I was about to create a new document, to explain the way qsxcv explained how to put it together but im burried with things to do and I have to prioritise
How does the shell feel for you ?
Thanks for beign the first to give it a try and post pictures.
Just because I did it first does not mean im the best at it, all modifications are welcome and I hope I see more of it so everyone benefits from better design/functionality
NOTE: If you`re using to print this with layer higher than 0.2, its gonna be very hard to fit the electronics inside, everything its pretty tight too keep it from rattling. I guess I should have specified that before, the shell for sensor/teensy and switches needs to be printed at 0.2 or lower.
Thanks for clarifying.
I'm having trouble with the firmware. The LMR click buttons all work regardless of which firmware I use (I modified the pin assignments so they match). On the G102 firmware (unmodified) the mouse cursor instantly jumps to the bottom right of the screen and insists on staying there - it moves back there when I move the cursor with another mouse. On the PMW3360DM firmware the mouse cursor kind of wanders.
I've attached a diagram of how I have everything hooked up currently as well as how I have the PMW3360DM firmware modified (in case I did something stupid). +5 and gnd are connected but not noted.
The shell feels amazing. My hand literally sighs when I place it on it. I did modify the shell to make the part next to the pinky a little wider, spread out the thumb rest, and bent the bottom rib in a bit to make it better fit my hand. STL attached if you care to see. I've been modifying everything with meshmixer - which has felt like butchery to me.
If you felt up to making a guide - I would love to see what I did wrong.
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Sorry you`ve ran into problems, here is the wiring and attached is the firmware im using with a PDF.
s = sensor
t = teensy
s-GD to t-GND
s-SS to t-B0
s-SC to t-B1
s-MO to t-B2
s-MI to t-B3
s-VI to t-VCC
For some reason I have a hard time writing documentation of any kind but I`ll get to it if you still have problems.
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WOW!
any chance for a limited run or creating a shop on shapeways or another online 3d printer for those of us without printers?
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WOW!
any chance for a limited run or creating a shop on shapeways or another online 3d printer for those of us without printers?
Are you looking for just the 3d printed parts or fully assembled?
Sorry you`ve ran into problems, here is the wiring and attached is the firmware im using with a PDF.
s = sensor
t = teensy
s-GD to t-GND
s-SS to t-B0
s-SC to t-B1
s-MO to t-B2
s-MI to t-B3
s-VI to t-VCC
For some reason I have a hard time writing documentation of any kind but I`ll get to it if you still have problems.
You are a saint. I'll check my wiring and re-flash with this and report back.
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i'd be curious what the printed parts would cost.
if you plan on making it a DIY kit, i think it could be wildly popular in our little niche in the world. wether you provide the prints or just post the files, parts list, build guide & firmware. (i'd help in anyway i can)
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WOW!
any chance for a limited run or creating a shop on shapeways or another online 3d printer for those of us without printers?
You can download the obj`s, the models and send it to some on-line printing service if you want or ask a friend, please not that tolerances, particularly teensy/sensor case are tight and if is printed above 0.2 you wont be able to fit the electronics inside. Depending on printer speed and material you`re using, you`re looking at 10+ hours of printing per device, that if none of the parts fail and have to start over with those.
Im working on a finall approach on how to have the scroll to work with the unmodified firmware.
People that cant get the print themselves/have a printer, usually wont be able/willing to solder, clean plastic parts and modify the firmware.
Meaning they need a complete product. Im the kind of person that likes to over-deliver when its time to deliver.
As it is right now I cant put the time into modifying the model to have 20 hand shapes and let the user measure and order the shell size to fit their hand because lets face it, thats all what this is about, perfect fit for each hand
If I start selling those as it is, Im only gonna run into unhappy users because the plastics wont fit properly if I only have one model/size.
praxis87 confirmed this, he could be the only person that actually did print everything and, of course, had to modify the model to fit his hand
Im thinking about having a kickstarter campaign because is the only way I`ll be able to start working part time and have the money to hire designers/engineers/marketers and create 20+ hand size/shape variation using same/better electronics. 3 months ? 6 ? 2 years, I dont know, I got to talk to friends.
Note: I can totally print same size plastic parts Im using and sell it to you if thats what you`re asking but cant afford to take the time to modify this to perfectly fit your hand size/style. To me the soldering part is hard because all the wires have to be tucked in, sandwiched between the PCBs.
Printable MEK-01 post coming soon (Keyboard)
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i'd be curious what the printed parts would cost.
if you plan on making it a DIY kit, i think it could be wildly popular in our little niche in the world. wether you provide the prints or just post the files, parts list, build guide & firmware. (i'd help in anyway i can)
The plastic used its gonna be about $3 and another $2 in electricity, the electronics are the expensive parts, $13 for Teensy and $30 for the sensor, not sure how much money you make/h but with soldering and cleaning the parts probably another... 1h. So, you do the math there.
If I were to sell those, I could not afford to sell under $80
All parts are already posted on my first post, same with the firmware. There isnt a comprehensive guide yet, looks like Im gonna have to make one sooner or later.
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3Dhubs is quoting me ~$110 for the prints in PLA... :eek: That is based on my current parts set... so the original files from iso may be less.
I'm very new to this little niche... so I have no idea how price sensitive folks are. Or if they're willing to accept the fact that the underside of some of the parts won't be super clean (due to the necessity of supports while printing) and will need to be cleaned up. Thoughts?
Iso also touched on the fact that neither his nor my palm file is going to fit everyone. Based on what I can tell, both of our hands are pretty close in size and I still had/chose to modify it to fit me.
IDK. I'd be willing to print some for folks, but it would have to be a conversation and between time spent and shipping cost it would have to cost enough to be worthwhile. That is assuming ISO is even cool with me printing these for folks.
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totally understand not wanting unhappy.
i'll keep an eye out & check back soon. (a.k.a. ...gotta get back to work...)
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$110 plastics alone ? Thats ridiculous. The printing/shipping in US, time to clean up should be $35 max. 3dhubs must be doing well.
Any of you got money ? :p We can make something happen, we can create molds and inject these and sell for $15/pop, shipped in US.
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3Dhubs is quoting me ~$110 for the prints in PLA... :eek: That is based on my current parts set...
that's more along the lines of what i was expecting.... online 3d print shops are expensive, especially for multiple parts. you'd have to group the parts together to make it worth it. but then there's even more cutting/cleaning up of the parts. i don't know a good solution to this yet. i've seen it numerous times over the last couple years since online 3d printing became popular. there have been a couple things i would've loved to have printed but didn't because of the cost.
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there have been a couple things i would've loved to have printed but didn't because of the cost.
That right there is literally why I bought my first 3d printer.
$110 plastics alone ? Thats ridiculous. The printing/shipping in US, time to clean up should be $35 max. 3dhubs must be doing well.
You're not wrong... I think I've spent maybe $15 in filament prototyping this mouse so far. On the other hand, look at what u/crystalhand is doing with dactyl-manuform keyboard cases and those are easily over $100 a set. More print time/more plastic on those (and more expensive failures), but I don't think he's actually making that much per unit.
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yeah, with the price of printers coming down, you could probably justify the cost with a couple projects.
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i'm just thrilled that there's a DIY mouse in the works, the fact that this one is beyond ergo is just icing on the cake. i've been waiting for years for the parts to surface (optical sensor) & someone to hack together some firmware.
this will definitely be my next project. i'm currently working on a hand-wired keyboard.
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speaking of printing prices..... cough... (have your exploitive censor beeper handy)
https://www.shapeways.com/shops/bespokeys
(the dactyl on shapeways)
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speaking of printing prices..... cough... (have your exploitive censor beeper handy)
https://www.shapeways.com/shops/bespokeys
(the dactyl on shapeways)
I think that's more a function of inefficient design for 3d printing on that version of the dactyl than outrageous cost. There is no good reason for a weirdly-shaped bottom piece. I was looking at the dactyl-manuform on shapeways... and I've got to say that $140 for both pieces printed in nylon is actually kind of tempting. I figure that it would take me $30-40 just in nylon filament to print it myself - never mind the 48++ hours of printing time and a very high risk of a possible failure. I still figure that their cost represents a 40-50% profit though.
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Well, I have a working version now. Thanks for the instructions and FW, iso, they really helped! I'm even writing this reply using it.
Status/thoughts:
- my scroll up/down buttons are not working - probably because it's expecting input from a quadrature instead of simple high/low. Not sure if I want to fix it in FW or add a scroll wheel - probably going to go with the wheel
- need new mouse feet as the stock ones are too tall for me and the sensor drags with nothing - currently sitting on some washers glued to the bottom
- wire routing channels might be a nice addition
- add and enable in FW a dpi button and change the DPI steps to 600/1000/1600
- need something between my fingers and the switch levers - really don't like the feel of the end of the micro switch levers.
- I really like the "feel" of the mouse as it tracks
- need a better USB cable lol
- not sure I'm sold on the timed debounce - it seems to have a hard time knowing when to release with held clicks
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YAY! congrats. looks great.
feet... add whatever you need to get the sensor off the desk, then you can get teflon mouse feet tape and do portions or the majority of the bottom of the base.
https://www.amazon.com/Skates-Teflon-Computer-Replacement-Yourself/dp/B01LZ44P6M
wire channels, if it's just a little clearance a small round file should do the trick (little bigger round than a tooth pick)
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Nice.
Im almost done printing the last bit on PETG and modelling the new bit, reed magnetic encoder case.
The ronud silver piece is a magnet, radial magnetisation pattern, combined with 2 reed switches, will replace a regular encoder but without the wear, think of it as a flywheel, 1 mm away from the reed switches.
Yes, will use a little bearing to its super smooth
I`ll put together a little parts list for the scroll mechanism alone.
The firmware I uploaded already has the encoding working, no modifications needed, is what I wanted to do from the beginning so whoever wants to put it together only needs to hack the hardware together without touching the software.
For the wire routing, I never used flat/band type wires, straight up, because is ugly.
My approach to it is normal wires coming out and use shrinking wrap to make it look pretty, then split/route where necessary.
I have no problem modelling... wire guides into the parts but replacing/adding extra connections to the teensy will require larger holes/guides and I dont want to make it look bulky before I see how the other users are using it. (But its a valid point on having wire/connector guides).
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If you insist on having a/multiple button for scrolling this is what I have, still needs modifications to "plug it" into the firmware.
Is all hacked together by various people, I havent wrote any of this except for small modifications.
!!!! New file for the code below !!!!
// Each button has its own dedicated scroll speed/direction - 6 buttons in total
#include <Keyboard.h>
#include <Mouse.h>
int count = 0;
void setup() {
pinMode(0, INPUT_PULLUP);
pinMode(1, INPUT_PULLUP);
pinMode(2, INPUT_PULLUP);
//Reverse
pinMode(3, INPUT_PULLUP);
pinMode(4, INPUT_PULLUP);
pinMode(5, INPUT_PULLUP);
}
void loop() {
if(digitalRead(0)==LOW){ Mouse.scroll(-1); delay(7);}
if(digitalRead(1)==LOW){ Mouse.scroll(-1); delay(70);}
if(digitalRead(2)==LOW){ Mouse.scroll(-1); delay(400);}
//Reverse
if(digitalRead(3)==LOW){ Mouse.scroll(1); delay(400);}
if(digitalRead(4)==LOW){ Mouse.scroll(1); delay(70);}
if(digitalRead(5)==LOW){ Mouse.scroll(1); delay(7);}
}
!!!! New file for the code below !!!!
// Scrolling with 2 buttons, holding down a button will start accelerating the scroll process on vertical plane. (Thanks L.)
#include <Keyboard.h>
#include <Mouse.h>
void setup() {
Serial.begin(9600);
pinMode(0, INPUT_PULLUP); // Forward
pinMode(3, INPUT_PULLUP); // Reverse
Serial.println("Setup complete.");
}
void mouseAccelerate(int signalPin=0, int scrollDirection=0, int startRate=400, int accelRate=50, int stepRate=5){
Serial.println(" Entered Accelerate.");
int currentRate = startRate;
int stepCount = 0;
while (digitalRead(signalPin) == LOW) {
Serial.print(" Scrolling active! stepCount: ");
Serial.print(stepCount);
Serial.print(" - Pin state: ");
Serial.println(stepCount);
if (stepCount >= stepRate && currentRate > accelRate){
currentRate = (currentRate-accelRate);
stepCount = 0;
Serial.print(" Reset stepCount. currentRate: ");
Serial.println(currentRate);
} else
Mouse.scroll(scrollDirection);
delay(currentRate);
stepCount++;
}
Serial.println(" Scrolling stopped..");
}
void loop() {
Serial.println("Loop - main.");
if(digitalRead(0)==LOW){ Serial.println("Calling accelerate."); mouseAccelerate(0, -1, 400, 50, 5); } // Forward
if(digitalRead(3)==LOW){ mouseAccelerate(3, 1, 400, 50, 5); } // Reverse
}
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Another approach to scrolling would be:
a. Two Hall magnetic sensors, up/down that measure the magnetic force, meaning depending how close the magnet is to the sensor, will change scrolling speed to fast/slow.
b. Two LDRs and one LED, isolating/controlling the ammount of light from the LED to the LDR, will control the scrolling speed. Think of it as light sensing device, receiving more or less will affect the scrolling speed
Both of these require extra pins/firmware modification, anyone want to give it a shot ? :)
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You guys are crazy brilliant! Love it!
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Another approach to scrolling would be:
a. Two Hall magnetic sensors, up/down that measure the magnetic force, meaning depending how close the magnet is to the sensor, will change scrolling speed to fast/slow.
b. Two LDRs and one LED, isolating/controlling the ammount of light from the LED to the LDR, will control the scrolling speed. Think of it as light sensing device, receiving more or less will affect the scrolling speed
Both of these require extra pins/firmware modification, anyone want to give it a shot ? :)
I've got a small surplus of the led/wheel/sensor from various logitech mice that I'd ideally like to use. I believe they are just an optical quadrature, but I haven't played with it much so I'm not sure how hard it's going to be to adapt. I think this is basically the same as your option b. Working on modeling how to hold it all currently.
You're right about the flat wire being ugly. I just used it because I had it handy and I thought it might help keep things tidy (it didn't). I also didn't tuck this one in very well as I expected there to be problems and/or revisions. Combining ground before coming down to the teensy would have been a good call.
I'm thinking about sugru for the lever switches. Thoughts?
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I've got a small surplus of the led/wheel/sensor from various logitech mice that I'd ideally like to use. I believe they are just an optical quadrature, but I haven't played with it much so I'm not sure how hard it's going to be to adapt. I think this is basically the same as your option b. Working on modeling how to hold it all currently.
You're right about the flat wire being ugly. I just used it because I had it handy and I thought it might help keep things tidy (it didn't). I also didn't tuck this one in very well as I expected there to be problems and/or revisions. Combining ground before coming down to the teensy would have been a good call.
I'm thinking about sugru for the lever switches. Thoughts?
You`re talking about optical encoders, does not work same way, the diference is that the receiver does not per-say measure the ammount of ifrared light coming from the emiter, its either on or off, LDR can measure light. the LED is to have a way to always have same ammount of light so the device does not have to calibrate the LDR every time you touch the mouse. So, needs to be light proof and the only source of light would be the LED and a little "door" thats moved by the user`s thumb, lets some light hit the LDR, opening the door more/less, will increase/decrease resistance - Mouse.move(1); delay(LDR_resitance);
Youtube "ldr light control arduino", you`ll get it.
The joint on the finger cluser should let you adjust the angle of the buttons, will also move the buttons slightly away from the hand support.
Looking at the picture you posted earlier looks like the finger cluster is too close to the hand support piece and the tip of your fingers dont hit the center of the lever.
What can you do ? Add extra lenght to the joint assembly locking mechanism to create distance.
If your pinky is touching the table aready, you need to lenghten the joint asembly shaft that goes between base and hand support.
On the video is my hand, proper the finger tip distance touching the center of the levers, there is no need to add anything, you need to resize things properly :))
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All done, magnet flywheel is working as expected. I had a round multi-pole magnet from a stepper I pulled from an old floppy disk.
You can get something similar here: https://supermagnetman.com/collections/neodymium/products/r1050?variant=11410341251
I dont have a model for the magnet in the link, I will order soon and I will create one
Note: The DPI buttons do work, you have to hold down the button and plug in the USB. I know, its kind of weird, will not change the DPI unless you unplug, hold down the button and plug it back in.
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just beautiful! :thumb:
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this thread is absolutely fascinating to me and you did triggered me to buy a PMW3360, just have to wait 2/3 weeks till it arrives.
If i may ask, some of you were talking about implementing hardware debouncing with nand gates, would this make gaming performance better for example?
Praxis was asking about sugru for levers, personally i've been trying to make some ABS levers for my omrons switches, i tried to model it like the one i found in newest logitech mouses, so i will know for sure how confortable/sturdy/efficient it is as i ordered several thicknesses, size...All i know is that using ABS it should be pretty sturdy as the bend will also be limited as it will be pretty close to the switch.
(https://i.imgur.com/WHceEy6.jpg)
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Stiffest material thats still affordable is PETG carbon fiber infused, next down, PETG, next is ABS
Whats the plan/end result with the extra work on the levers ? Replace the metal ones ? Add to the length of it ? Completelly new switches ?
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Kaibz, abs switch arm... if you're still getting flex in the arm, make it thicker or add a spline to the under side & stop just short of the switch so the arm doesn't hit the housing of the switch.
iso, lever switch covers... what about printed "fingers" (covers) that fit over the lever of the switch. i know there's not much clearance, but should be able to make some little covers for the levers. ...epoxy putty.. if too difficult to fix a 3d print to the metal lever? or even a little bit of shrink tubing (would at least keep the metal from reacting to skin oils.... doubt the levers are stainless)
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If i may ask, some of you were talking about implementing hardware debouncing with nand gates, would this make gaming performance better for example?
Praxis was asking about sugru for levers, personally i've been trying to make some ABS levers for my omrons switches, i tried to model it like the one i found in newest logitech mouses, so i will know for sure how confortable/sturdy/efficient it is as i ordered several thicknesses, size...All i know is that using ABS it should be pretty sturdy as the bend will also be limited as it will be pretty close to the switch.
As I understand it, theoretically hardware debouncing should register multiple clicks faster than timed debouncing. However, I've been using the timed debounce on this mouse for a couple of days now and I can't tell the difference. Hardware debounce sounds cool but it isn't really necessary IMO.
I was suggesting sugru finger pads like some folks do to make regular mice more ergonomic - not an entire lever. I currently have a little bit of heat shrink tubing on the levers. It's a lot better than bare metal, but I'm going to keep tinkering. My original thought/plan was to adapt the plastic keys from ISO's original magnetic switches to the finger cluster for the microswitches. I think I'll have to completely re-model the finger switch cluster to implement that though.
Looking at the picture you posted earlier looks like the finger cluster is too close to the hand support piece and the tip of your fingers dont hit the center of the lever.
What can you do ? Add extra lenght to the joint assembly locking mechanism to create distance.
If your pinky is touching the table aready, you need to lenghten the joint asembly shaft that goes between base and hand support.
On the video is my hand, proper the finger tip distance touching the center of the levers, there is no need to add anything, you need to resize things properly :))
You're probably right about me needing to push the finger cluster out further. I'm just worried about how much flex I'm going to get out of that assembly as it already flexes somewhat.
My pinky does touch the base plate - I was thinking about making it just a little bit taller... but more so that I could tilt the hand piece a little bit more on its side. I'm not happy with the pinky rest, but prefer having something to rest my pinking on though.
Stiffest material thats still affordable is PETG carbon fiber infused, next down, PETG, next is ABS
Whats the plan/end result with the extra work on the levers ? Replace the metal ones ? Add to the length of it ? Completelly new switches ?
I can't speak for Kaibz, but my plan with the levers was to increase the surface area of the button to make it easier to index.
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@iso Actually now that i think of it i guess it would make sens to just use the metal levers but may glue a nice/longer button on it, i guess that will be trial and error:
(https://i.imgur.com/JukMd8G.jpg)
(i m going yo look into petg i had never thought about using it)
@nevin problem is i do want some flex so it feels "confortable" to push that lever all day long so i do want some flex but once again, iterations are going to be key for that, but more iterations means higher cost.
@praxis87 Well i checked the gaming mouses i have and it seems none of those are using hardware debouncing on the switches, as the switches are spdt and the second pole is not connected to anything. however even when you click the mouse as fast as you can, you're almost sure it never misses a click? If no hardware debounce is necessary this is an extremely good news !!!
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@praxis87 Well i checked the gaming mouses i have and it seems none of those are using hardware debouncing on the switches, as the switches are spdt and the second pole is not connected to anything. however even when you click the mouse as fast as you can, you're almost sure it never misses a click? If no hardware debounce is necessary this is an extremely good news !!!
So I was confused when I first started to talk about "hardware" debouncing methods (imagine that... a n00b opening his mouth before he knows what he's talking about). There is the double-throw "debounce" in firmware (this is what the PMW3360DM firmware had) that essentially waits for the other throw to change the click state. Then there is an electrical "debouncing circuit" which can use either dual NAND gates or a resistor-capacitor network to electrically handle the switch bounce.
No, I've never noticed a missed click that I could point to in 25+ years of FPS gaming that I could attribute to the mouse. The debounce on this mouse is like 4000us - so I'd theoretically have to click something like 250 times per second to step on the timed debounce. I might be able to get to maybe 8 clicks in a second... maybe.
I thought about gluing something to the switch lever too... but it's such a small surface area to glue to and it's smooth metal, which is hard to glue to anyway.
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I been using those switched for over 4 years on various itterations of this mouse, never crossed my mind that its too stiff, usually im in front of the computer 12h/day clicking, but i learned that people are different and have different needs.
I attached a test model you guys can modify and try print, one end of the lever has like a hook that should lock it in place. if does not work good enough, scratch the top surface of the lever with sandpaper and if you manage to print it, one very small drop of superglue then slide the plastic "sleeve" over the switch lever, wont go anywhere.
The "tip" is a separate model because you need the option to slide it over the "sleeve", find the perfect position while using the mouse and superglue it, measure it, modify the model with the sleeve and tip combined in one model and reprint
@Kaibz you dont want that pointy plastic bit stabbing your fingertip, trust me, it should be concave not convex, but there, im helping :)
Kudos to whoever manages to print with the 0.3mm gap without waping.
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MEM.02
Few design changes:
1. Wrist corner support moved back about 3mm
2. Top rib twisted counterclokwise about 10 degree
3. Added support between thumb and index
4. Ball joint that goes between the index and middle finger (most important). I will have to add a way to lock into position soon.
Print time: Approx 4h at 0.2mm, 15meter of PLA
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nice! :thumb:
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@Praxis87 Thanks for the infos, i will no try to implement hardware Debounce in that case.
Btw Can anyone confirm the PWM3360 sensor can be set to 100HZ or 500 Hz for the polling rate?
@Iso thanks for the CAD files man !!! The new design looks great. Just out of curiosity, how much did it cvost you to print you the latest version? also I've read many things about PLA and the thing that is worrying me is the fact that PLA degrades over the years and with humidity, is that a concern of yours? I'm asking as i haven't printed anything with PLA so i don't know how it actually feel.
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@Kaibz
PLA is fairly cheap, $14/kg or 330 meter shipped in US. so, few cents for the 15 meter that been used for the hand support.
Yes, PLA does degrade, I have a 3d panorama maker that I been using for over 5 years now, took it to Yellowstone and Zion and many other places, left it in the sun/rain for weeks at a time, I see some layer separation and discoloration but is holding well still. Also, I have some prototypes for some electrics enclosure that I never took outside, Utah is pretty dry, those pieces look brand new, color is consistent, no damage I can see.
For this device, I dont think you need to worry about PLA fatigue if you keep it inside and you dont constantly bend it/submerge it under water :)
There are more expensive nylons and PETG/food safe plastics that are even less prone to damage/fatigue.
Printing cost is only a problem for people that dont own a 3d printer and this device is still something Im gonna keep improving, so, you can print every now and then, every 6 months the newest version, since has interchangeable parts you save money by only printing what you need, not the whole thing.
NOTE: Previous model has an error, the ball joint for the support that goes in between index and middle finger is off to the right by about 5 mm, sorry for that, I will correct the model soon and reupload
!! Do not print the MEM.02 hand support. !!
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Hi.
Hand support model been modified, added lots of little changes, too many to mention them one by one but here`s the most important.
1. Added new linkage for extra strength from the ball joint area to the hand support.
2. Added small finger separators on the frame itself.
3. Lightened the frame, removed some of the areas where there is no reason for a full fill.
4. Remodeled the support for index/middle finger.
The ZIP file contains a very high poly OBJ and low poly OBJ, I know modifying a high poly model is very hard, impossible for beginners, now there are 2 versions of same model and you can use your favorite 3d modeling program to add as much details as you need and have control over the smoothness o the final product.
Im trying to modify the firmware to do 1400 DPI by default, 2000 high/800 low, not 800 - 1200 high/400 low, the way it is right now but im having all sorts of problems compiling the right file.
If someone can do that for the rest us and upload the HEX, I`d very much appreciate it. I`m reuploading the firmware too with a PDF that explains what lines need modification.
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taking a peek at the firmware, is the resolution the only thing you're trying to change?
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i didn't see the PDF you mentioned in the two attached files.
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ok. the way the config works is you don't actually enter the dpi you want, there's a built-in calculation it does and you have to have the right variable to get the resolution you want.
// Enter into the brackets which DPI you want available.
// The numbers represent the DPI: for example (3+1)*100 = 400 DPI, (15+1)*100 = 1600 DPI.
// So the below example can be read as: 400, 800, 1600.
// uint8_t dpis[] = {3, 7, 15};
so in your case you want:
uint8_t dpis[] = {7, 13, 19};
## representing 800, 1400, 2000 dpi
- now, if the 800 & 2000 are in the wrong orientation to what you prefer we can switch it as it's saying that the first number "800" is profile 2, "1400" is profile 1/default, and "2000" is profile 3
// The first number is for Profile 2 (rear side button)
// The second number is for profile 1 (Default profile)
// The third number is for profile 3 (front side button)
if you were trying to change it and it wasn't changing, my guess, the values were stated in another one of the files. so i opened them all did a grep search for "dpi" and sure enough it was noted in "bst3360.lss" & "main.lst" as well with the default values you're trying to change.
i've run across this before, you're supposed to change a value in... say "config.c" but that same value is stated in a couple other files it references when it compiles and the "config" file has the least authority over the other files.... so the variables you're trying to change, don't actually get changed.
also, when compiling, make sure you either delete the previous .hex file or at least rename it so you get a clean, fresh compiled file & there can't be an issue with duplicate file names, etc... not saving the new hex file because the file exists or is open....
i like to keep an organized set of folders (OUTSIDE of the "firmware" folder because the compiler has full authority over the "firmware" folder and can delete any usable hex files) with successful hex files, naming the folders with what i'll know the changes were. as all the hex files will have the same name
/mouse
/initial working/bst3360.hex
/changed dpi/bst3360.hex
another note when compiling after the 1st attempt.... make sure you "clean" before you rebuild "all" meaning...
// To rebuild project do "make clean" then "make all". (this clears out all the intermediate config & other "old" files)
config is also defaulted to "Teensy 2.0" MCU = atmega32u4, pretty sure that's what you're using, but please confirm.
i don't have the hardware yet to test it, but i didn't have any issues/errors compiling it either, so give it a shot & see if it works. you should easily be able to tell the resolution difference, the mouse will feel a lot quicker. going from 400/800/1600 -to- 800/1400/2000
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Nice work nevin!
I am currently using your firmware and it's working great.
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great! glad it's working.
i'll post the firmware folder with these changes later today.
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Thanks @nevin - Its working, good job.
I just ordered some ring multipole magnets from the link above, shipping was more than the product itself and those are tiny tiny magnets.
I`ll have to find some beefier ones somewhere in China, bought those to confirm that a certain type of magnet is needed for the reed magnetic encoder to work with unmodified firmware, then move on with better hardware to a definitive design for the thumb scroll.
If finding the right thickness/radius fails, the only option left is to get some 2mm round magnets and glue them to a printed wheel, I sense what will drive the cost down by alot. I can get 200 2mm magnets for $7 from China, shipped and use max 30 magnets/wheel.
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.... talk about reinventing the wheel.... lol. awesome job guys! :thumb:
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attached is the firmware folder with the resolution changes for anyone else that wants to edit further & compile their own hex.
the edit/changes to this copy of the firmware:
uint8_t dpis[] = {7, 13, 19};
## representing 800, 1400, 2000 dpi
- now, if the 800 & 2000 are in the wrong orientation to what you prefer we can switch it as it's saying that the first number "800" is profile 2, "1400" is profile 1/default, and "2000" is profile 3
// The first number is for Profile 2 (rear side button)
// The second number is for profile 1 (Default profile)
// The third number is for profile 3 (front side button)
[attachurl=1]
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I've been working on this some more tweaking parts and I'm at a branching point before I try to integrate a salvaged optical scroll wheel.
Highlights:
- completely re-built the finger switch carrier and adjusted it to the length and spacing of my fingers
- spread the thumb rest area on the hand piece out even more
- split the clamp for the finger switch carrier and added a hole for a bolt to tighten it independently
- re-designed the thumb buttons (still unhappy with them - I have still yet to get the button covers right and keep taking them off)
- raised the sensor container height to remove the extra feet height requirement and allow the use of just mouse skates on the bottom
- changed the angle of the thumb and pinky attachment split clamp
- raised the main ball mount another few mm so I can tilt the hand piece more
Upcoming:
- replace center button with scroll wheel/center button combo carrier
- version 4 thumb button carrier
Please forgive the wiring. I haven't bothered to do much to put it away as I intend to tear it all out again.
Need to trim my stls a bit - the current batch of files is ~400mb. I will make them available if anyone wants them though.
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nice.
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Hi
@praxis87 - nice.
Do you find that you constantly need to adjust the buttons/wrist position/angles, or like me, once I find the right position I dont need to doit anymore ?
Why im asking
The ammount of customisation is there mainly because once the user is done adjusting everything in position, can measure distances between various elements and "fuse" the model to create a very compact/stiff shell that dont need adjusting except maybe for the sensor angle. My other mouse mod with the logitech sensor is exacly that, that is the end result. I mean yeah, looks cool with wires and all that but stiffness is important as plastic will fatigue in time and sooner or later you`ll have to re-print bits.
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@iso
I assume that you're primarily asking about why I bothered splitting the clamp for the finger cluster. I've been using this mouse (at work) in various iterations for ~3 weeks now and I've had a lot of folks ask about it and want to touch it (and some of them messed up the adjustment in the early versions). What I found is that the finger cluster got looser and looser no matter how tight I got the wing nut for the assembly (and I've been tightening it by pushing on the wings with a screwdriver until I can't tighten it anymore). So I realized that I needed more clamping directly on the ball (and maybe my bolt head was/is interfering with the clamping). Since I changed the clamp I haven't moved the finger cluster once.
I hear what you're saying about fusing the model and printing it solid - essentially using the model as a measuring device for another product... but I don't know if I could measure my setup accurately enough to replicate it to my satisfaction in a modeling program nor am I sure that I want to. I could see gluing it in place... but with the new finger cluster clamp that hasn't seemed necessary. I also like the idea of anyone being able to print it, adjust it, and just tighten it in place.
Maybe my opinion will change after a couple of months of use and I see how it wears. I definitely share with your concerns about stiffness. There definitely is a lot of torque being applied to the main ball head - that's why I stiffened up the main ball that everything rides on and printed it with more perimeters. It still flexes a little, but it's a lot better And the finger assembly got a bit stiffer when I changed the clamp design to better accommodate the M3 hex head bolts that I am using (so I could really tighten it down).
Not sure I said this earlier - but thanks for publishing your design and being open minded about the butchery inflicted on it. It's already helped my hand/wrist a lot.
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question for you guys... with ergonomics in mind, what keyboards do you use?
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question for you guys... with ergonomics in mind, what keyboards do you use?
Use? Microsuck natural ergonomic 4000
I'm building a 5x6 Dactyl-Manuform. As soon as it's done (waiting on rubber feet, of all things), that M$ keyboard is gone.
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praxis, yeah, i really like the look of those (and the original dactyl) but i didn't want to go that small (5x6 or smaller). so, i am currently using split 5x7s i put together. in my opinion, it's the easiest transition into split ortho/alternative layout type boards as you get a standard number row & plenty of keys that you don't have to bury common keys in layers. i really like it, getting the space between the two halves makes a big difference. haven't ventured into tenting yet, but i don't hold my hands right to do tenting either (lazy... wrist rest).
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@praxis87 - People modifying my design does not bother me one bit, I welcome it, hive mind is always better. Even now with the model available, yours and mine, most people will not take the time to modify it and save their wrist. Feel free to print it for your coworkers and make a buck, buy me a pizza from time to time :)
@nevin - MEK01 coming soon, my main printer died and Im waiting for parts from China, I have the models and finish the designed thumb cluster and use my second printer but I rather wait 2 weeks to get my delta together.
At the bottom module I`ll have a trackpad. Some keys are missing as I dont know what keys I want yet. Keycaps are printed too, custom font/size, ultraflat. Yes, I`ll make the models available.
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WOW!
i can see why the printer died. you must have had that printer running 24/7
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@iso
That's really cool! Got to respect a man willing to go FULL CUSTOM.
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NEW:
1. Finger cluster link
2. Thumb link
3. Round magnet flywheel
4. Reed/magnetic encoder support
5. Thumb scroll piece
The finger cluster link and thumb are interchangeable, re-designed, much better clamping power, if still slips after this you need a better/stronger plastic. I`m using PETG and I see no issues.
The other three are new, the round magnets arrived three days ago and I had to create the model.
Bearing: https://www.ebay.com/itm/401541204188 - 5 x 13 x 4 mm
Magnet: https://supermagnetman.com/collections/neo-rings/products/r1050
If you choose to use a different source keep in mind the magnet needs to be multi-pole/radial magnetisation.
Enjoy.
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And new finger cluster model :))
Just cosmetic adjustments, no other changes were made, has a cleaner look, printing time is now about 30% less than the previous model.
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Seting up the electronics
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New finger cluster with little bit of support on the side.
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Wow, never seen this because it's hiding in ergo not MST. I can see why bit it's not getting the recognition it deserves....
I now feel the need to find a friend of a friend who has a 3D printer!
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@praxis87 - People modifying my design does not bother me one bit, I welcome it, hive mind is always better. Even now with the model available, yours and mine, most people will not take the time to modify it and save their wrist. Feel free to print it for your coworkers and make a buck, buy me a pizza from time to time :)
@nevin - MEK01 coming soon, my main printer died and Im waiting for parts from China, I have the models and finish the designed thumb cluster and use my second printer but I rather wait 2 weeks to get my delta together.
At the bottom module I`ll have a trackpad. Some keys are missing as I dont know what keys I want yet. Keycaps are printed too, custom font/size, ultraflat. Yes, I`ll make the models available.
:')
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looking good iso, guessing you got the printer fixed? kudos.
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looking good iso, guessing you got the printer fixed? kudos.
Hi, yes, my Tevo little monster is alive now, I started the keyboard thread where 90% of the plastics are already printed but im slowly documenting the process - https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=99856.0
I want to try see how hard would be to resize the hand piece witout destroying the model, @nevin, please do me a favour.
Get an a4 standard printing paper and draw your hand countour, take a picture of it and upload it here or send me a private mesage with the attachment.
Try touching the left/right edge of the paper, if you cant, leave as much space on the top as is gonna be on the sides, like you see in the picture, make sure the edge of the paper is visible (have different background color behind the paper) so I have reference points, thanks.
My guess is if I can get those 3 reference points right, I can produce any size hand-piece and perhaps someone smarter than me use my example model on OpenSCad and parametrically generate those as needed.
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OOH, YAY, homework. on it.
don't have a4 (i'm in US) but will scan it so it will be correct. (no issues with lens distortion, etc...)
LOVE this kind of R&D stuff.
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pm sent.
as far as using the measurements to change the size... the easiest would probably be just to use ratios.
- your hand measurement = 100%.
- ratio from your measurement vs others measurement (ratio/percentage larger or smaller than you, just increase or decrease by that amount)
- i'm sure it sounds easier than it is, as i am not familiar with 3d software at all.....
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The problem with anything organic and our case, human hand is variation, small palm, long fingers, thin fingers, thick, only thick at the base, super-wide tip, protruding joints... etc...
A palm can be exactly the same size as mine but the fingers can be longer, or wider, meaning the finger cluster ball joint shaft needs to be longer and there is more distance between the switches, more separation.
Im curious what part of the model @praxis87 had to modify to fit his hand, my guess is hand piece, distance beetween the switches/fingers, ball head finger support shaft legnth and ballhead base joint height
Thanks for the scan @nevin, I appreciate it, looks like your hand is slightly smaller, about half inch.
How good are your soldering skills ? Soldering the teensy to the sensor can be a PITA
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yes, i do have small hands .....and i'm short.
soldering skills.... not bad, 20+ years tinkering... no problem with anything through hole. have done some smd as well.
latest thing that was tricky/small was a flight controller on a little drone. some of the pads are tiny and i had to solder 4 wires to 4 smd pads that were right next to each other without bridging.
you want a hand with some soldering?
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@nevin - I understand you dont have a 3d printer, because you been active and helped with the firmware, if you`re willing to pay for the shipping from Utah to your place I can 3d print all plastics for you for free. Thats why I asked about the soldering, you still gonna have to set those up, buy the electronics/screws/bolts/wingnut/bearing/magnet/reed switches. Let me know.
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oh my goodness! absolutely! but let me give you something for the prints.
i'd also like to dig into the firmware a little more when i get time to see if we can add modifiers/gestures to get more actions out of the 3 switches. i'm currently using a 7 button mouse and have it set up as:
- left = left
- right = right
- center/wheel click = enter
- 2 buttons on left side = home & page down
- 2 buttons on right sise = end & page up
it may sound a little silly but it's really quite handy having those keys on the mouse. you can keep your hand positioned on the mouse longer without having to jump back & forth from mouse to keyboard.
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There will be at least 7 unused pins on the Teensy after completelly wiring the sensor/buttons/LED, meaning, with proper matrixing the firmware should be capable of at least extra... 50 buttons :)
Its all good on the paper but trying to add a mere 10 could generate lots of problems.
Im not gonna mention much about software which im not good at but hardware, having everything move as it is right now, adding extra 10 buttons is gonna be a major challenge, some of the flexibility is gonna be lost, buttons cant be as big as the left/mid/right and so on.
Im gonna mention some features, these are just ideas, some are harder some are easier to implement, please dont take it as "must do this"
What I`d like to have:
a. 1 button instead of 2 to switch DPI, have 3 presets, pressing the button will cycle those. The way it is right now, the user must hold one of the buttons down while plugging in the cable/teensy to switch to a lower/higher DPI, althought I dont find myself switching DPI all the time I find it inconvenient.
b. ALT + arrow left (back)
c. ALT + arrow right (forward)
d. F5 (Refresh)
e. ESC (Stop)
f. CTRL + Page up (Next tab)
g. CTRL + Page down (Previous tab)
h. CTRL + T (New tab)
i. Minimize active window
j. Minimize all windows (Show desktop)
I guess these cant be done unless you have a Teensy 2.0 so you can test/debug.
Next amazing thing would be a GUI to switch buttons profile from let say "Navigator" to "Video editor" and have shortcuts like CTRL + arrow left, home, shift + home, del, etc, and "Coder" - Insert tag, save, switch tab, etc... but we long way from this if will ever get done by the community.
After re-designing the top cover for the sensor I`ll get printing the parts for you, thanks for everything @nevin.
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have to post and say hi. Btw lovely username! :cool:
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@iso, no problem, i enjoy this stuff. let me know when you need an address and some $ (obviously, no hurry). i'll see if i can get a response from the originator of the firmware.
the commands (key combinations) should be possible as long as there's some implementation for macros
i don't want to add a ton of buttons either, i just want to see if we can squeeze more functionality out of your wonderful creation.
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Im curious what part of the model @praxis87 had to modify to fit his hand, my guess is hand piece, distance beetween the switches/fingers, ball head finger support shaft legnth and ballhead base joint height
You've got it right on the money. I actually completely re-modeled the finger switch holder after revising it a couple of times. Another variable you may want to consider is hand thickness. I had to modify the pinky side of the hand piece to be more comfortable for my hand.
What I`d like to have:
a. 1 button instead of 2 to switch DPI, have 3 presets, pressing the button will cycle those. The way it is right now, the user must hold one of the buttons down while plugging in the cable/teensy to switch to a lower/higher DPI, althought I dont find myself switching DPI all the time I find it inconvenient.
b. ALT + arrow left (back)
c. ALT + arrow right (forward)
d. F5 (Refresh)
e. ESC (Stop)
f. CTRL + Page up (Next tab)
g. CTRL + Page down (Previous tab)
h. CTRL + T (New tab)
i. Minimize active window
j. Minimize all windows (Show desktop)
I'm no firmware wizard... but the existing firmware already has forward and back buttons (D3, D4) and they work. It has a DPI button provision also (D5).... but it doesn't seem to work and I don't know why.
My wishlist would also include porting the firmware into Arduino so I can add the keyboard library and add custom macros.
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Thanks for the clarifications @praxis87, you could still be the only one other person that actually took the time and did print this, I havent seen anyone else posting pics
Yes the firmware does have back/forth, strangely enough, does work for me, I still dont have the RGB LED tho :)
Im thinking about re-doing the top cover for the sensor with the buttons/LED, then perhaps add some wire routing holes then later on, create the merged/joined shell
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Thanks for the clarifications @praxis87, you could still be the only one other person that actually took the time and did print this, I havent seen anyone else posting pics
That may be. It does take several converging non-easy skill sets/hobbies to build this and it is a niche product. I know I only embarked on this journey due to bad RSI in my hand/wrist and an IT job.
Im thinking about re-doing the top cover for the sensor with the buttons/LED, then perhaps add some wire routing holes then later on, create the merged/joined shell
I'd be interested in the revised sensor cover. May just be my printer requiring further tuning, but I have trouble getting the cover to sit down nicely with the wire running to the GND pin on the end of the Teensy. What kind of buttons are you using on your cover?
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Switch button ID: P8073STB-ND
Is that where the cover doesnt play along ?
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Yep, that's the spot. The wires soldered to the end pins on the teensy prevent the catch from seating fully.
Ohh... Never seen round body tac switches before.
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I found the round switches when I took apart an old display to salvage the electronics, of course I had to order 100 of them.
@praxis87 - Does your teensy have headers ? I added some pins and I can see why wire management is a bit of a problem.
@nevin - Order the electronics and other piece of hardware you`ll need to assemble this, by the end of the next month you`ll receive the plastics. As I remember the sensor will take minimum 2 weeks to arrive. When Im done modifying the sensor compartiment/cap I`ll message you about shipping money/location.
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@iso - awesome! i'll get with you in the next couple days to put a complete parts list together for myself as well as any others that decide to print/build. (looks like most of it is listed, just want to make a concise list)
what gauge wire you guys using? i just got a multicolor spool of 30awg for another project.
i did like the angled 3 button piece, reminded me of an engine block (the holes & the angle) but the revised will probably be easier to work with.
excellent work as always.
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24 gauge/0.4mm, solid copper for teensy to the sensor connection, you can get those from LAN cables. Ads lots of stiffness to the assembly, also I added double sided sticky tape on top of the sensor`s IC, to hold the teensy as I soldered those two together.
Everything else is from old/salvaged USB/HDMI/VGA cables. I have probably over 50 colors to choose from. I dont remember ever buying cables/wired for DIY projects.
As I`m trying to create space to add more wires, the design of the sensor/teensy case will chage, aready did 3 itteration of whats in the pictures, when Im happy with the result, I`ll add the OBJ again with picture.
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yeah, i got a bunch of crap wire as well. but i'm working on a hand wired keyboard and didn't want to get a bad section of crap/intermittent wire. i'll have enough fun tracking down other issues, i don't want that to be one of them.
how close are those 3 buttons on the base to your thumb? reachable?
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1. Re-did the sensor case and the cover for it. Looks... weird but now there is lots more space to work the wires out. No hole for the LED, just for the DPI/Navigation buttons. Holes through. M3/4-40 flathead machine screws will fit.
2. Re-did the cap for the sensor. Lower profile, minimalistic, will exert little bit of pressure on the teensy IC, is designed that way.
3. No branding (for now)
@nevin , not reachable. Is difficult to model/add those next to the scroll-wheel and unless I have more options/buttons I dont dont see myself putting the time for just 2 buttons, so that bit will have to wait.
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nice.
i'm all for function over form. doesn't look bad at all either. reminds me of some of the battery braces from back in my R/C racing days. do you need that much pressure that a bolt & nut is necessary, or would some plastic/wood screws from the top be enough to hold down the top brace? any way to squeeze a small hole in there to access the reset button?
buttons. oh, it's no problem. was just curious.
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Top cover is pretty thin, very little pressure but the 4-40 screws will keep it from rattling, previous model had a "snap on" kind of mechanism, would be pretty stiff at the beginning then will get loose after removing/adding it few times, i never liked it, always felt like I have to pry it open with certain care so I dont destroy it. With the screws looks/feels better built.
For an easy payment of $99.99/month or 1000/year you can have a tiny reset hole, limited offer, act now, this wont last !.
If you take on assembling this, chances are you have a drill bit to poke a hole on a 2mm piece of plastic :)
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lol. no problem. i know from other projects the community would make noise anytime the reset button was not easily accessible.
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Lots of digging/research into the firmware stuff....
Actually, after initially programmed, you can hold one of the mouse buttons when plugging in to invoke the bootloader, so really, no need to get to button on teensy after 1st flash.
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I guess if the firmware gets ported into Arduino, all other options will be lots easier to implement, mainly because even beginners can throw some non-sense in there and upload the code and find what they actually want as extra button/functionality.
Unless someone else is faster than me and create the model, the extra buttons will have to wait.
Im done resizing the model for hand piece and finger cluster. I`ll print those tomorrow.
@nevin - does it bother you if plastics gonna be lime/gray mix ? I ran out of gray filament.
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Printed parts... COOL!
Colors... No, beggars can't be choosers....
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@nevin
Lime green actually looks good with medium grey.
In reality the green is darker, not so shiny.
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I'm going to have to stop printing my mouse pieces just in black.
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@iso - Looks fantastic! Thank You! Soooo excited! Sending pm in a min.
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I'm going to have to stop printing my mouse pieces just in black.
Dont you dare, you need to be known as the guy that prints black only, I`m the guy that prints on any other color :))
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@iso - Question about your experience with the magnetic quadrature. I built the reed switch quadrature pack similar to your pictures and I made sure to orient the quadrature pack so that the rotation path of the magwheel would cross one reed switch at a time. But, I'm getting inconsistent performance out of the wheel quadrature. Do you have any issues with the reed switches being right next to each other?
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@praxis87
Are you using a round magnet ? You only need 2 reeds.
Are you sure your magnet has radial polarization ? Imagine that on the GIF you have south/north as the white/black bar, the GIF has a better technical explanation of what is happening, sorry for my english.
Let say the magnets move from right to left, to synch with the GIF
1. North enters the trigger zone, reed a
2. North enters the trigger zone, reed b
--This is how the electronics know you`re scrolling up or down, if triggers a first, goes up, if triggers b first, goes down.
3. South enters the trigger zone, reed a
--Here is telling direction, N N S > UP
4. North leaves the trigger zone, reed a
/LOOP/
If you`re using tiny flat magnets, those need to face the reed switches S N S N S N S N S N S N, you cannot randomly position those
You can have as little as 2 magnets per wheel and you`ll only scroll what is considered one line per revolution.
Takes very fine adjustments to find the sweet spot, half mm can be the area where the right sequence is happening, depending on the size of the magnet/reeds, the smaller the harder is to find it
To simplify this process, add long wires to begin with for the reed switches.
Clamp down the scroll assembly, make sure the thumb wheel moves freely and you have access to the plastic bridge that faces the exposed magnets.
Open a tall webpage where you have to scroll alot or a very large text file.
Position the mouse cursor over it.
Center the scrollbar to the middle of the page/window.
Hold the reed assembly with one hand and get it close to the plastic bridge, with the other hand slowly start moving/rotating the scroll assembly/magnet.
Touch the plastic bridge over exposed magnet with the reed assembly, while the wheel assembly is rotating, move the reeds up/down the bridge, pay attention to the page/text file window
As you slowly move it back or forward you will notice that the page will start scrolling up/down.
After you find where will move in one direction, reverse thumb/magnet rotation. Move the magnet up/down the bridge till the page moves the other way.
Do this and you`ll find the spot where moving the wheel up/down, the page will scroll up/down. Sometimes is reversed, desolder the other 2 wires, not the ground, switch position.
Since the area where the right sequence is happening is so small, you`ll have trouble attaching the reeds to the bridge right where needs to be.
First, take a mental note on how far/close is the reed asembly from the edge
Add a very tiny drop of superglue to the bridge, while moving the scroll with one hand, with the reeds on the other hand, get close enough to the bridge wthout touching the glue but close enough to find the spot again, then push down on superglue.
Most likely you will fail few times but you`ll get it, its important you dont use lots of superglue to begin with, after is glued in position you can add more.
Do not use hot glue unless you really know what you`re doing, reeds will demagnetise/damage at 180F
Reed switches need to be next to each other, yes
If you still have problems let me know, I can make a short video, or for $99.99/month you can join my club, named "I can superglue random stuff" and I`ll teach you in person :))
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If you still have problems let me know, I can make a short video, or for $99.99/month you can join my club, named "I can superglue random stuff" and I`ll teach you in person :))
I'd totally join that club.
Thanks for the writeup. I'm using 8x round magnets arranged in a NSNSNSNS configuration. I re-modeled the finger switch holder and a more traditional mouse wheel to carry the magnets. I'll post pix in a couple of days.
Short version is it was working correctly while it was briefly in the sweet spot... Now that I know how small that sweet spot is, I just need to re-find it (and figure out if I destroyed the reed switches when I hot glued/heat shrunk them).
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Yes, all excellent info. Answered a couple questions i knew i would have. Thanks.
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Last of the parts should be here in a few days. Going to mock it up so i can play with firmware until the printed parts are ready. (again, no rush, seriously)
From what i've researched, there's at least 2 revisions to the firmware, newer than what we've been playing with. Also, looks like there will be a way to add keyboard codes to the firmware.
@praxis87 - There's also a user working on getting the code for the sensor into arduino (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=100027) (i remember you mentioning that's something you would like) Last i checked, he has the sensor & some buttons working, wheel code still needs added (going to use buxtronix's example).
That's all i have for now.
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Scroll wheel is successfully implemented on my setup.
I completely re-modeled the switch holder in Fusion 360 and adjusted it for the wheel. I wasn't sure I was going to like the split setup for the middle button/wheel, but so far I'm actually really happy with it.
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Loking good @praxis87, thanks for the pictures
Glad you`ve got the reeds working
I couldn`t live with having to hold down the mid-button and scroll with the same finger.
I have in the works a lighter mouse-base and more support for the hand piece, uploading models soon, most lilely next Monday.
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@praxis87 - nice work, looks good
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Updated:
1. Base - Only poked few holes, uses less plastic, little ligter, reduce printing time
2. Finger cluster has a straigt down support/ball joint instead of angled. Added larger finger separator, those are handy while lifting the mouse off the table.
3. Hand piece, added cable routing hole, extended finger support, removed some of the pinky support, now its easier to lift it off the table without clawing it too hard.
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Speed Holes! NO WAY! it's got to be a fast mouse now.... lol
looks great iso.
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Its all in the DPI :)
Thinking about making a 3d printed trackball too.
Same sensor, same teensy, different firmware, the axis need to be flipped because the sensor is gonna be almost upside-down, I ordered a stainless steel 50mm ball to test with and made a little imprint to get a better idea on how big is gonna be and overal hand position
@nevin, have you received the sensor for the mouse thats on its way to you ? If you could help with the firmware, flip axis, would be amazing but without a sensor to test with, gonna be lots of back and forth with me/others testing it
Its hard to see but there is a hand imprint
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yeah, all parts are here. the only questionable part is the bearing, which, hopefully i have one that fits (lots of R/C stuff). didn't want to order a box of that size for just one bearing.
the material of the ball may be an issue, we'll see. as far as trackballs go, the kensington expert mouse is fantastic (don't know that there's much to improve on)
some image captures from this sensor on various surfaces (from another thread)
SQUAL (=surface quality, higher is better)
Logitech G440 Mousepad
[attachimg=1]
Anodized Aluminum (=Apple MacBook Retina 2013)
[attachimg=2]
Fabric (a t-shirt)
[attachimg=3]
A4 print paper
[attachimg=4]
Printed character (by a laser printer) on A4 paper
[attachimg=5]
Office desk (white)
[attachimg=6]
Leather
[attachimg=7]
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the expert mouse is an optical trackball, and the ball itself looks like candy metallic paint form a car.
[attachimg=1]
i have one of the older beige kensington orbit trackballs which is mechanical not optical.
the ball supports (what the ball sits on) are small plastic or glass balls like tiny clear ball bearings. i'll take a bunch of pics & send later.
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@nevin You should have told me that you need a bearing, I would have left in there for you. I`ve got a trackball that I took apart, there is plenty that can be improved upon :)
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@iso - Bearing - It's fine. I should have some .....somewhere.
Got the prints, looks fantastic! Thanks for the nameplate, nice touch. The larger of the two main skeletal pieces is perfect. Can't wait for the day to be over to start building!
THANK YOU!
What make/model trackball gave it's life to science?
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You welcome.
I`ve got 2, both work, one is wireless, I dont remember the brand, thats aready being used on a keyboard, second, wired, I kept most important bits, Kensington Orbit.
Apparently the little bearings the large ball slides on are zirconia or ceramic.
If I ever get to build one of those I`ll probably use the tungsten version with a large ball that can be repositioned from thumb to fingertips position. We shall see.
Once assembled, add some first 24h usage impresions, more than anything Im curious about how long gonna take you to re-learn the thumb scroll position.
Weirdly enough, it appears lefties have an easier time re-learning/adjusting, my right handed friends were like "I guess I can get used to it", lefties "Duhhh, this is the way now, cant go back"
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Lefties! i know. Totally agree. Only ones in their right mind...
Tackballs. I like the scroll ring the kensington expert mouse. The buttons on all trackballs need work.
Trackball modules would be interesting for this "modular" mouse. Either for 2 axis scrolling (thumb) or tracking (ball up at fingers with a switch or two to right of ball, left click would be thumb). I find index finger on ball is more adept than thumb for fine control/accuracy.
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Finally got a working mouse together this weekend. Initial impressions are fantastic!, so many possibilities.
Because of the ergonomic gripping position (more vertical, so wrist side to side motion is now up & down), i'm going to move the sensor to the front (at least for now) to get a closer reaction of the sensor to the hand/arm movement that i'm used to with a normal mouse. Plus this will give me the most sensor movement from minimal physical movement (horizontally). This will require rotating the orientation of the sensor and rewiring it 180 deg. from it's current position (so usb connector is over the front of sensor instead of the back of the sensor). This is needed as the usb port would be facing the ball on the base. A way to avoid rewiring the sensor 180 would be to hardwire a usb cable to the teensy (not using the usb connector). Another benefit of rotating & moving the sensor to the front, the side buttons on the sensor pod are now reachable with your pinky.
Going to make some adjustments to the firmware as well:
- Increase cpi to get closer to what my current mouse is (aprox 4k).
- As well as hopefully being able to include keyboard commands & possibly support for a couple more switches. (all versions of firmware out there are up to 5 button)
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Sounds awesome, please post pictures with your mods and the new HID :)
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Live streaming now for the next 4hr - https://www.twitch.tv/2_am
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very cool ! sorry if it's been asked before but is the pcb footprint big enough to fit a g305 pcb in order to make a wireless version ? just a thought that came to my mind
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very cool ! sorry if it's been asked before but is the pcb footprint big enough to fit a g305 pcb in order to make a wireless version ? just a thought that came to my mind
The current electronics mount is the size of a Teensy 2 (the base will just cover my MX Master though). You could certainly modify the base and sensor container to carry a different PCB... you might have to "destructively rearrange" the PCB to make it fit though. You're definitely going to have to de-solder switches and the mouse wheel also. It looks like there is a model for a G305 board carrier on Thingiverse that might be a good starting point. https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3531075
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MEM Compact.
Since I dont have the need to adjust the mouse anymore, found the perfect angles I decided to measure the distance between each bit and fuse the model to make it ocmpact.
I cut toothpicks on various height sizes and place them under the different elements, like pilars, hand piece, 3 locations, finger cluster, 2 locations, magnet flywheel, 3 locations, etc.
Took sharpies various colors and painted the toothpicks, took pictures with toothpicks in place.
Took those out and measured them one by one, went back to 3ds max and adjusted the height/angle/position as measured, then fused the model to get the compact version, I streamed the whole modelling session on Twitch.
The only thing thats still adjustable is the sensor case, can be rotated. Uses same sensor case model, same everything. Enjoy.
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Still amazed.
Hopefully I'll have some time this weekend to work on mine more. ...hopefully... fingers crossed.
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@praxis87 On one of the setups, I`ve got the same problem you had with mouse cursor jumping on the corner, how you solved the problem ? No matter which firmware I use, does the same.
Update:
1. Extended left support.
2. Extended center support.
3. Centered the sensor hole.
Since the hand position is not adjustable anymore/got fixed height, I decided to extend the supports, now feels like you`re wearing the device :))
Sensor rotation is still adjustable but its position is now centered, feels little better when its closer to the wrist, at least for me, plus, for whoever wants to add board/electronics from a different device but the sensor is centered, this will make it easier.
Enjoy
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@praxis87 On one of the setups, I`ve got the same problem you had with mouse cursor jumping on the corner, how you solved the problem ? No matter which firmware I use, does the same.
I ended up re-soldering all of the wires between the 3360 and the Teensy between having the problem and trying the new firmware that worked - so I don't have 100% confidence which actually originally fixed the issue for me. I have used both of the firmwares in posts #60 and #63 successfully. Maybe check that your wiring is correct (and not broken)?
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No matter what I tried and I tried everything, I cant makle it work, so I ordered 2 new sensors :thumb:
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sounds stupid but make sure the lens is fixed. either melt the posts that stick up through or glue it or something (the lens is not fixed in place when you order it, it can be easily removed). make sure there is no dirt/hair etc. in the way. had many issues like this with a laser mouse (those are even more sensitive to dirt & debris)
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The lenses were hot-glued in place 30 sec after unpacking :)) those are easy to misplace.
I was replacing the wires to fit inside the 3d printed sensor case, prepping for the trackball, after re-soldering the damage was done, whatever happened, dont know
Never took the lens off and it was workign 20 min before that. Gotta wait now for the replacements
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Update:
Updated the design for compact ergonomic mouse - C-EM
Changed branding for the sensor cap
Removed the back-forward (DPI) buttons from the sensor case, made the whole assembly smaller.
Added the DPI buttons next to the left mouse button.
Re-did the bearing case, I didnt like the fact that I have to screw in the magnet flywheel to the bearings and the thumb scroll piece, now I got a 3 inch stainless steel shaft that is very snug and nothing needs to be screwed it.
In preparation for when I can add extra buttons, I created the space for additional buttons for the thumb.
Reed switches/rotary encoder hole is part of the thumb assembly, makes it easier to position/glue.
Re-designed thumb piece
Re-designed flywheel
[attach=2]
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@nevin - Any news on the firmware update that`s supposed to have extra buttons/functionality ?
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Apologies for the delay, should have an update in the next day or two.
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Sorry I've been out of the picture... Had a rough couple of months due to an injury and unexpected hand surgery.
I'm putting out my current draft of parts in case anyone is interested. I have NOT been able to print and test fit most of this - so print at your own risk. The only parts that I know for sure work are the finger cluster / scroll wheel / original base / ball head coming off the base. The thumb buttons, stalk, and accessory ball mounts were what I was working on getting to fit when I got hurt and are not done and the slot in the hand piece was (messily) modified to accommodate the dual-bolt design of the new stalk I was working on.
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Welcome back, speedy recovery @ praxis87
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I had some failed prints because of faulty belts/bearings and I decided to split the model to minimize failures and alow the users with smaller printers to use the model.
Update:
1. New base - Basically I only added the holes to reduce printing time and holes for the hand support/shell + finger cluster
2. Split the hand support in 2 pieces, main hand support and finger cluster.
3. Moved the round navigation buttons to make it easier to reach
Used M3 flathead screws to attach the hand support and finger cluster, printed at 0.3, Filament looks diff colors but is because of the light, same dark gray-blue roll.
The sensor case is the same, not attached, the file can be found on previous posts.
The print looks rough, this new phone camera does weird things, sharpening the edges, in reality is smoother.
All models are high poly.
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Have you tried printing any of these with Shapeways? They have a bunch of new plastics/finishes that could almost take this close to production.
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Have you tried printing any of these with Shapeways? They have a bunch of new plastics/finishes that could almost take this close to production.
I haven't actually had any of it printed... but I did get quotes back in February from 3dhubs and shapeways. It seemed prohibitively expensive to me at the time (compared to what I could print it for myself). I am considering having just the hand piece professionally printed in nylon on a SLS machine (or possibly on the little resin printer I just got once I get it dialed in) after I test fit my re-drafted parts.
The real issue with this as a production product is the sheer variability in the size and shape of peoples' hands. I think that the only reliable way to overcome that problem would be parameterizing the hand piece. If someone could figure out getting that part into openscad or making a clojure project for it, I think that would be doable.
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Injection molding is the only thing that can take this to production, and have at leat 7 sizes/presets for people to choose from, other than that is gonna stay very low production semi-affordable 3d printed versions. Electronics alone are over $40. IMHO you cant produce this in small quantities and sell it for less than $120+.
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Injection molding is the only thing that can take this to production, and have at leat 7 sizes/presets for people to choose from, other than that is gonna stay very low production semi-affordable 3d printed versions. Electronics alone are over $40. IMHO you cant produce this in small quantities and sell it for less than $120+.
Not sure if the production volume needed for injection molding is there though. Especially with that number of sizing variants. SLA/SLS printing for the handpiece feels like the way to go, they get very close to injection mold quality.
With a semi-professional printer like the Form 2/3, the material cost would be around $10-15 per handpiece (Probably 12 hours to print :eek: but a great starting point)
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Not sure if the production volume needed for injection molding is there though. Especially with that number of sizing variants. SLA/SLS printing for the handpiece feels like the way to go, they get very close to injection mold quality.
With a semi-professional printer like the Form 2/3, the material cost would be around $10-15 per handpiece (Probably 12 hours to print :eek: but a great starting point)
Funny that you should mention that...
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Not sure if the production volume needed for injection molding is there though. Especially with that number of sizing variants. SLA/SLS printing for the handpiece feels like the way to go, they get very close to injection mold quality.
With a semi-professional printer like the Form 2/3, the material cost would be around $10-15 per handpiece (Probably 12 hours to print :eek: but a great starting point)
Funny that you should mention that...
Awesome! The grey looks great.
What printer did you use?
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Awesome! The grey looks great.
What printer did you use?
The gray is Phrozen ABS-like printed on an Anycubic Photon S.
This is mouse #2. Most of it is from the files I posted back in July. It's been in service as my work daily driver for about a week now. So far, the resin pieces are holding up.
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@ISO @nevin
What do you guys think about adapting this to make it wireless? This firmware is written by the same guy (qsxcv) as what I believe we're all already using and it looks fairly similar.
https://www.overclock.net/forum/375-mice/1598978-wireless-mouse-faster-than-logitech-s-wired-ones-oh-yes.html
https://github.com/qsxcv/avr_wireless_mouse
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we can try it. been wanting to mess with some wireless stuff anyway. lots of questions on the keyboard side of things.
- i wouldn't go wireless for desktop (but that's just me)
- i would use a standard li-on cell size (14500 (same size as AA), 18350 (short), 18500, 18650). a lot quicker to swap batteries than wait for it to charge even if a meager 150mah. plus holders are easy to get a hold of. and given our mouse size, it wouldn't be an issue.
- low run time, part of the reason i haven't purchased a truly wireless set of iems yet. (swappable cells would fix this)
- latency info looks good, but i don't play games or use wireless to be able to notice a difference.
- bluetooth 4LE is supposed to be better energy wise over other versions (i didn't look up the chips to see what BT version)
... just some initial thoughts....
...also, i haven't abandoned this. just haven't had time. been stupid busy with work (self employed = can't call off "sick") and marching band & fall musical are in full swing and i help out/build for both.
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I generally agree with you on avoiding wireless desk mice whenever possible... but I mostly just want to be able to use it wirelessly for 2-3hrs at a time for meetings and otherwise it can be a charger queen the rest of the time.
I've got a small hoard of 18650 and ~3-4ah lithium flat cells that I was planning to use.
It looks like the NRF24L01+ can be made to sort of do BLE. I did see a sleep function in the wireless mouse firmware.
https://dmitry.gr/index.php?r=05.Projects&proj=15&proj=11.%20Bluetooth%20LE%20fakery
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oh, so not bluetooth. ok. that's fine. .... i just assumed, ...didn't really dig into it yet. module is 2.4 GHz though.
- shy of frankensteining the extra hardware into the mem. i think a decent shell for the receiver module would be important. especially if using for meetings etc... i'm sure you could handle that with your fancy new resin printer. ... a little enclosure to hold the teensy2.0, nrf24l01+ module in a stacked form. either like a thumb drive or a mini box velcro'd to the laptop's lid with a short usb cable. (that's how i used to run my high capacity external 2.5" HDD)
I've got a small hoard of 18650
yep. me too. latest mod can use up to 20700s.
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I`m all about wires but I`d like to see a wireless version of this, yes.
If I get this right, is gonna be a sandwich of 3 PCBs soldered together plus battery ?
First custom semi... ergo mouse I made was a wireless with logitech electronics, almost 10 years ago, first time I managed to make the reed switches work properly and I used an ultra cap as power source.
Old video, 3d printers were a luxury back then, hack it together out of thick copper wire and solder it with a torch, I still have that piece somewhere in a box.
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that's awesome. love it. i went through a "naked electronics" phase too. (just raw components, without shells/covers/etc.... function over form)
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Naked electronics are awesome if would not be for the lead/solder/flux toxicity being in direct contant with the skin, even brass/copper is toxic to some degree.
I remember buying high grade stainless steel flat wire and I madea pretty bad version, since is much harder to bend around and cut, was a nightmare to work with SS.
Then I got a box of thermoplastic pellets from ... the famously defunct RadioShack, I still have some left, that stuff is awesome but cant embed electronics in it since needs to be hot, fresh out of boiling water.
Just so happen shortly after that I got a new job, paid lots better and I got a huge delta 3d printer that pretty much changed everything
So what electronics you guys want to use on the new wireless version ?
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I've been wondering about replacing the teensy2 with something like the Adafruit Feather 32u4 Bluefruit LE. It's got BLE, a battery connector, and onboard USB charging.
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@praxis87
If you put the electronics together and confirm that is working, I can help with the modelling.
I believe I can fit everything on same same area, sensor case, which will alow quick swap from wired to wireless as needed.
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i didn't see some specs i was looking for in the overview, will have to look into it further but sounds promising..
... especially, "Hardware Serial, hardware I2C, hardware SPI support"
couple quick notes:
- 3.3v (compared to the 5v of the teensy 2.0)
- flash size?
- 8mhz (feather) vs 16mhz (teensy)
anyway, will look into it.
also, just picked up a TS100 soldering iron, my old radio shack one finally died after 25+ years
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@praxis87
If you put the electronics together and confirm that is working, I can help with the modelling.
I believe I can fit everything on same same area, sensor case, which will alow quick swap from wired to wireless as needed.
Already ordered. Should be here late this week or early next week and I'll start assembly as soon as time allows (I should be done building my 5x7 dactyl-manuform by then).
i didn't see some specs i was looking for in the overview, will have to look into it further but sounds promising..
... especially, "Hardware Serial, hardware I2C, hardware SPI support"
couple quick notes:
- 3.3v (compared to the 5v of the teensy 2.0)
- flash size?
- 8mhz (feather) vs 16mhz (teensy)
anyway, will look into it.
also, just picked up a TS100 soldering iron, my old radio shack one finally died after 25+ years
It looks like both Teensy and Feather have 32K of flash and 2K of RAM.
I'm concerned about the 8mhz too... If I'm reading qsxcv's wireless mouse firmware right, I think he set the teensy to 8mhz on that one and it sounds like he didn't have any issues with it... I guess we'll see. If it turns out to be too slow, they also make a version of the feather with a M0 (48mhz) mcu. I would have started with the M0... but I don't know how compatible the existing code is with the ARM or how much would have to be changed to make it work.
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I would have started with the M0... but I don't know how compatible the existing code is with the ARM or how much would have to be changed to make it work.
that's really the roadblock with any of the stuff we try to build.
(I should be done building my 5x7 dactyl-manuform by then).
i'd love to see it & hear what you think of it. that's what i'm looking for as well. there aren't too many of them out there. almost everything is 6 columns or less. i don't want to go any smaller than 7 columns just to keep a standard number row. i've been using a viterbi (split ortho 5x7s) for about a year & a half and really like it and will never go back to staggered, but i would like to try out thumb clusters.
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i'd love to see it & hear what you think of it. that's what i'm looking for as well. there aren't too many of them out there. almost everything is 6 columns or less. i don't want to go any smaller than 7 columns just to keep a standard number row. i've been using a viterbi (split ortho 5x7s) for about a year & a half and really like it and will never go back to staggered, but i would like to try out thumb clusters.
Then I'll post pictures when it's done. I've been using my dactyl-manuform 5x6 as my daily driver for about 8 months now. I've gotten very comfortable with the thumb clusters. I'm pretty happy with it (even with the odd number/F-row and symbols I had to move) - I just want to try another column to see if it takes some of the awkward out of coding.
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Yeah, that's why I went with the viterbi (5x7). You can keep a full number row, you will get back "-" & "=" and get the brackets back to their rightful spot. The only thing I moved was "\" which i don't use all that often.
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On the 5x6 I sacrificed the capslock (don't miss it), page up/down, and arrow keys (definitely miss those). All of the symbols I have. F-row is buried under the number keys of the same number (except for 11 and 12, obviously) Just the brackets and grave are in a weird place. After getting used to the tenting, negative tilt, and thumb clusters I don't know if I would willingly go back to a flat keyboard.
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@praxis87
[attachimg=1]
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Sorry for the delay. Programming the D-M 5x7 turned out to be a lot more complicated than programming the 5x6... so bad in fact that I think I'm going to have to build an entirely new layout in QMK to get it programmed successfully. Lesson to learn - read keymap in the existing firmware before printing the case so you don't accidentally end up with a slightly non-standard physical layout. The particular clojure D-M project I used makes row 5 look identical on the 5x6 and 5x7... well, everyone else's adds several keys there and removes one from the end of row 4 on each side.
I have a Feather 32u4 BLE and Feather M0 BLE to start testing on as soon as I get that far. Reading https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-feather-m0-basic-proto/adapting-sketches-to-m0 (https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-feather-m0-basic-proto/adapting-sketches-to-m0) makes me hopeful that adapting the firmware to run on the M0 won't be too awful and complicated - but we'll see. I think I'm going to start with trying to combine our existing firmware with qsxcv's bluetooth firmware as a base - thoughts?
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Are you gonna attempt to add extra functionality on the newly combined firmware ? Extra mappable butons, like page up/down, refresh, etc ?
I will buy whatever piece of hardware you managed to make work, put it together myself and modify the sensor box to include the extra electronics when you`re done.
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i have a plan for the added functionality/buttons. haven't had time to implement it yet. marching band season is almost over, nationals are nov. 9th for us.
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@nevin - You not gonna let Praxis do it before you do, DEV fight, lets go ! :)
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let me put on my brackets & braces.... lol
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I'm betting on nevin in this fight... even with a two-week head start.
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eh, you give me too much credit. we'll get it figured out though. i'll have to order your parts as well.
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Update:
Competelly new frame, 50% lighter, faster to print, easier to modify.
DPI switcher/navigation buttons added under the scroll wheel.
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love the evolution of this, it's great @iso !
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All OBJs - Free for personal use
Other hardware used:
M3 flathead screws 40mm (cut to length as needed)
M3 brass nut inserts
Brass 4-40 screw/nut for clamping down on the bearing thats close to the round magnet
Teensy 2.0
PMW3360 motion mensor
Round magnet - https://supermagnetman.com/collections/neo-rings/products/r1050
Enjoy.
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:thumb:
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update: finally have some in-use experience & started playing with firmware.
- as i think i said before, i have the sensor at the front (kinda under fingers). makes it a little quicker to respond to smaller movements, transitioning from a regular mouse where most of my movement is in my fingers & wrist (i typically kinda claw grip a regular mouse).
- most of the clamps have cracked around the ball joints, don't know if the balls were too small or too well cleaned up as it was hard to get them tight enough to stay in place. i've tacked them in a couple places with superglue to see if this will hold for the rest of the testing.
- have to play around with the bearings for the scroll wheel, one of them is catching, and there's a little bit of slop yet with the way i put it together. other than that (minor fixable issue) I LOVE THIS SCROLL WHEEL! on almost every mouse i've ever had, it takes for ever to scroll something. this is so much faster and a lot smoother (even when removing notches from a standard scroll wheel) i did get the multipole "washer magnets" from the link earlier in this thread. (have extras if @praxis87 wants a couple)
- i think i'd like to make the base a little smaller, especially on the left side. (not sure what's possible without it tipping over as most of the weight is on the right side for me). i typically run a pretty high dpi and use minimal mousepad area.
- i have a couple ideas for the finger switches, but have to do some digging on mouser or digikey and get some samples before say anything about that.
- will keep you posted with further updates.
anyway, THANK YOU AGAIN @iso ! so honored to be part of this and your generosity.
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Nice. I got you @nevin I can reprint those for you, only pay for shipping.
Just wait to use it for like 2 days fully assembled, touching another regular mouse is gonna be like "Whats this stupid design"
Plastics on 3d prints will fatigue, if you bolt it/mechanically stress it, will fatigue even faster, is sub-mm layered heated plastic on top of other layers, thats why 3d print are for prototyping not for production, even more exotic carbon fiber infused plastics, just not as good as injection molding/resin.
I have a tendency to make things extra beefy for that reason alone, to avoid re-printing that part too soon. I can get a resin printer but its stinky and I dont want to store resin containers in my room.
How to clean sticky bearings, remove the seals and clean the lube with a paper towel, with a toothpick, remove everything you can
If "hops" on certain location could be that the crown touches the metal seal on the inside, removing those with a sewing needle could be all it takes. If doesnt, after cleaning the lube, submerge it in acetone or paint thinner of some sort and holding it with pliers and spin it, will dislodge whatever is trapped in there. I found myself blowing compressed air on it, its lots of fun jsut becareful dont spray nasty chemicals on workplace doing that :)
I re-lubed mine with bicycle chain oil, is not gonna be any high-load high-speed there, you could pass lubing it alltogether, smoother movement
Upload some pictures so I can see where the cracks are, I can modify the model to make it thicker.
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what did you use for the scroll wheel axle? looks like it's running in brass, or inside a potentiometer housing. maybe you could get away with one magnet and no need for precise alignment if you had a big pulley driving a small magnet pulley with a rubber band. I'd love to try it out to see how it feels. I don't think I'd build one as it looks like I would break it.
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update: finally have some in-use experience & started playing with firmware.
- as i think i said before, i have the sensor at the front (kinda under fingers). makes it a little quicker to respond to smaller movements, transitioning from a regular mouse where most of my movement is in my fingers & wrist (i typically kinda claw grip a regular mouse).
- most of the clamps have cracked around the ball joints, don't know if the balls were too small or too well cleaned up as it was hard to get them tight enough to stay in place. i've tacked them in a couple places with superglue to see if this will hold for the rest of the testing.
- have to play around with the bearings for the scroll wheel, one of them is catching, and there's a little bit of slop yet with the way i put it together. other than that (minor fixable issue) I LOVE THIS SCROLL WHEEL! on almost every mouse i've ever had, it takes for ever to scroll something. this is so much faster and a lot smoother (even when removing notches from a standard scroll wheel) i did get the multipole "washer magnets" from the link earlier in this thread. (have extras if @praxis87 wants a couple)
- i think i'd like to make the base a little smaller, especially on the left side. (not sure what's possible without it tipping over as most of the weight is on the right side for me). i typically run a pretty high dpi and use minimal mousepad area.
- i have a couple ideas for the finger switches, but have to do some digging on mouser or digikey and get some samples before say anything about that.
- will keep you posted with further updates.
anyway, THANK YOU AGAIN @iso ! so honored to be part of this and your generosity.
I had the same problem with cracking parts on my first few versions. I think I broke literally every joint at one point or another. A combination of restraint when tightening, beefing up the joints, and increasing the contact area pretty much solved it for me.
Based on my own experiences and what worked on my redesigns, I think that contact area of the joint is more important than the smoothness of the ball. 3/4 of the ball joints on my current mouse are SLA on FDM and the SLA is much smoother than I've ever gotten any FDM part. I did notice that causing the joints to move while tightened tended to make them much harder to tighten up enough to not move again.
Going strong for 5 months now since I last changed anything though. Knock on wood. I'll probably have to re-print the entire mouse now that I've said that. :rolleyes:
Thank you for the offer of the magnet. I'm happy with my multi-magnet wheel next to the center button though.
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what did you use for the scroll wheel axle? looks like it's running in brass, or inside a potentiometer housing. maybe you could get away with one magnet and no need for precise alignment if you had a big pulley driving a small magnet pulley with a rubber band. I'd love to try it out to see how it feels. I don't think I'd build one as it looks like I would break it.
You can get away with a regular rotary encoder, yes. If you`re using magnets/reed switches you cant get away without fine positioning it. Rotary = friction and soner or later you`ll have to replace it, Reeds = no friction, virtually indestructible.
You could make it work with one magnet but is will be even harder to position just right.
No brass, is an M3 40mm long screw with... weird looking nut/insert type.
@praxis - are you gonna mod yours to move to a more compact verion or you`ll keep using it as it is ? My past itterations I just super-glued everything after I was happy with the postioning :). Now that my modelling got much better I`m not afraid of re-doing things
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You can get away with a regular rotary encoder, yes. If you`re using magnets/reed switches you cant get away without fine positioning it. Rotary = friction and sooner or later you`ll have to replace it, Reeds = no friction, virtually indestructible.
I took apart a lot of mice last year trying to re-re-invent the [mouse] wheel. There were a surprising number of 10+ year old mice (and surprisingly some new production ones) that were still working that had the wheel running with a mechanical quadrature. Sooner might still be far enough away for some people (says a guy with 8 magnets and two reed switches under his hand).
@praxis - are you gonna mod yours to move to a more compact version or you`ll keep using it as it is ? My past iterations I just super-glued everything after I was happy with the postitioning :). Now that my modelling got much better I`m not afraid of re-doing things
I don't know. I've been working on other projects for the past few months and haven't tinkered with my design much. Like @nevin, I think I would like a smaller base and I may model that in the future; but I am otherwise happy. None of my joints have moved since I last posted pictures... so my impetus to change things has been pretty minimal.
I have been checking in periodically and saw your new more compact version. I like how small it is (especially as a wireless travel mouse), but I'm afraid that my organic modelling skills that I would need to make it fit my hand correctly are not nearly up to par with yours.
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This version is lots easier to modify, I uploaded few GIFs to exemplify how to change base size and hand. Previous models was lots harder, especially the high poly version.
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nice! :thumb:
the soft selection is very cool!