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geekhack Projects => Making Stuff Together! => Topic started by: AcidFire on Wed, 19 June 2013, 11:25:40

Title: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 19 June 2013, 11:25:40
Current Status:
I've assembled & tested the first revisions of the boards and am midway through updating the second revisions of the PCBs, bringing them in line to be the production design.

Latest Media:
Testing the LED arrays:

Playing with the layout:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14295.jpg)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14290.jpg)


****************************************************************************
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So I came to geekhack purely because I happened to stumble across the Ergodox while searching for a keyboard solution to my pain in my wrists. And because Dox and Litster were awesome enough to open source their designs, I was able to use the laser cutters we have at work to take the design for a test drive. What I found just laying my hands on the boards echoed what I've read from a few people, mainly that the thumb cluster wasn't entirely comfortable for me at the same height as the other keys. A couple of test cuts later and I've landed at this:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14173.jpg)

Comparison w/ Ergodox:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14176.jpg)

I made some minor modifications to the key layout, dropped the thumb pad 9mm, and everything felt a bit better in terms of fit. I still want to offset the pinkie keys down a bit more, but for now I'm happy to test my new layout. So before I lay out and order PCBs, I set up a test the old fashioned way:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14185.jpg)
Installing diodes made it super simple to connect my columns. The best part is, it takes minimal effort to remove the hot glue & solder, so when I do finally get PCBs made it won't take me long to recover my keys for the new board.

And because the black & clear acrylic sandwich looks so slick:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14178.jpg)

I'm also a bit proud of the way I've designed the thumb area, as it allows for a variety of different layouts to be used/customized, and then connected to the mainboard:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/thumbpads.png)

More to come!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard
Post by: fohat.digs on Wed, 19 June 2013, 11:33:16
Beautiful work.

One day I might look into these.

Check out the jailhouse blue mod.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard
Post by: llovro on Wed, 19 June 2013, 11:34:12
Wow. Good job at doing this. Case looks really classy. Can't wait to see more :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard
Post by: HannibalChew on Wed, 19 June 2013, 12:06:28
Wow, this looks brilliant! Awesome job!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Wed, 19 June 2013, 12:15:49
Yeah, if you could start selling these that would be great.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard
Post by: linziyi on Wed, 19 June 2013, 12:19:28
It looks like a grand piano ;D
would be awesome if the case works with ergodox, I would definitely want one!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Wed, 19 June 2013, 12:22:43
It looks like a grand piano ;D
would be awesome if the case works with ergodox, I would definitely want one!
The thumb pad is lower than the rest of the board. It needs a different pcb.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 19 June 2013, 12:24:28
Thanks for the positive responses so far everyone, it's very encouraging :D

Yeah, if you could start selling these that would be great.
The thought crossed my mind, since I have direct access to the tools (including a Pick & Place machine) I would hopefully be able to keep it on the affordable side too. I'll keep this thread updated if I decide to go down that path.

It looks like a grand piano ;D
would be awesome if the case works with ergodox, I would definitely want one!

Unfortunately due to the staggered nature it wouldn't work directly w/ the Ergodox, however if you're interested in having a case for the Ergodox cut in those colors PM me and I'll see what I can do for ya ;)

Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard
Post by: Larken on Wed, 19 June 2013, 12:24:39
woah. that is beautiful. the curves and legs remind me of a grand piano.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 19 June 2013, 12:34:35
woah. that is beautiful. the curves and legs remind me of a grand piano.

I'm starting to think I'm going to have to do a mixed white&black keyset lol. I also updated the thread title, considering now that you guys have said it all I can see when I look at it is grand piano  ;)

Also, while these are a bit big, I'm sure I could find similar to look like piano legs heh:
http://www.mbs-standoffs.com/Aluminum-Standoffs-Diameter-12-Standoff-12-Aluminum-Black-Anodized-Finish_p_3001.html (http://www.mbs-standoffs.com/Aluminum-Standoffs-Diameter-12-Standoff-12-Aluminum-Black-Anodized-Finish_p_3001.html)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard - The Grand Piano
Post by: ITzNybble on Wed, 19 June 2013, 12:45:57
Wonderful work, such a beauty
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard - The Grand Piano
Post by: Glod on Wed, 19 June 2013, 13:13:57
i think you can guess what i think of this. freaking awesome

not sure i like the legs though, i know it goes with the piano theme but they just seem like out of place with the design

maybe if you had a chunk of acrylic cut just like i have on my ergodox in wood.

edit. btw i love the solid color acrylic case for the ergodox, you could get those cut and sell them easily, i would buy one.

edit2: oh snap thats not an ergodox is it on the right? win!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard - The Grand Piano
Post by: Larken on Wed, 19 June 2013, 13:31:56
Now that I took a closer look at it, I have to say that this was more impressive than I thought it was. That's 10 layers of acrylic in the design, isn't it? And just a thought for your consideration - a fullhand design with integrated wrist rests are better for tenting. It's very tiring to float your hands all the time with a classic case when its so high up all the time.

By the way, the cuts you made are so much cleaner than the default ergodox cases. I bet you could sell those to people if the costs of your cutting isn't too high.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard - The Grand Piano
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Wed, 19 June 2013, 13:35:00
Just noticed the book in op.
I like your choice in literature. Read most of the series myself.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard - The Grand Piano
Post by: Photekq on Wed, 19 June 2013, 13:39:24
Looks great. Good job, man.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard - The Grand Piano
Post by: Jagriff on Wed, 19 June 2013, 13:48:25
Please start selling that black acrylic ErgoDox case!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard - The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 19 June 2013, 14:15:47
Now that I took a closer look at it, I have to say that this was more impressive than I thought it was. That's 10 layers of acrylic in the design, isn't it? And just a thought for your consideration - a fullhand design with integrated wrist rests are better for tenting. It's very tiring to float your hands all the time with a classic case when its so high up all the time.

By the way, the cuts you made are so much cleaner than the default ergodox cases. I bet you could sell those to people if the costs of your cutting isn't too high.

Nope, it's 7 layers, 3 layers of 6mm acrylic & 4 layers of 3mm. It would be 10 if i was cutting the 6mm layers out of 3mm tho.

I will have to look into selling the black cases, please keep in mind that I don't have 1/16" black acrylic, just 3mm (1/8"), so it would change the thicknesses a bit,  if someone felt like volunteering to try out a case, PM me and we'll go from there.

As for the full hand, thats the first thing I noticed, so I'll be updating the design when I get the chance to provide proper support. The great thing about it being multilayered is that it's easy to make tweaks like that without having to cut the whole thing again.

i think you can guess what i think of this. freaking awesome

not sure i like the legs though, i know it goes with the piano theme but they just seem like out of place with the design

maybe if you had a chunk of acrylic cut just like i have on my ergodox in wood.

edit. btw i love the solid color acrylic case for the ergodox, you could get those cut and sell them easily, i would buy one.

edit2: oh snap thats not an ergodox is it on the right? win!

The legs are quite temporary, and are mostly there to help me figure out what height/angle works for me without having to continually recut an acrylic stand for it. However, it's also possible to find much nicer looking legs that would still allow for the adjustment, so we'll have to see what the future brings.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard - The Grand Piano
Post by: Rayne on Wed, 19 June 2013, 14:23:37
wow, this really is a beautiful piece of art work. Great job sir, i would love to try typing on one of these.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard - The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 20 June 2013, 02:25:06
Now that I took a closer look at it, I have to say that this was more impressive than I thought it was. That's 10 layers of acrylic in the design, isn't it? And just a thought for your consideration - a fullhand design with integrated wrist rests are better for tenting. It's very tiring to float your hands all the time with a classic case when its so high up all the time.

By the way, the cuts you made are so much cleaner than the default ergodox cases. I bet you could sell those to people if the costs of your cutting isn't too high.

I completely agree about the floating, so tonight I did a new design:

(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14190.jpg)

I widened the edges a bit, and extended the palm rest, updating the design of the curve as I did. I also moved the pinkie keys down a few millimeters, which feels more comfortable to reach with. The result is far more comfortable than the previous iteration, so now I may just have to cut some pretty 6mm clear spacer pieces and peel off all that protective paper. I'll be able to test better when my new keycaps come in, but I think this is pretty damn close to where I want to be with it design wise.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Thu, 20 June 2013, 15:52:22
Now that I took a closer look at it, I have to say that this was more impressive than I thought it was. That's 10 layers of acrylic in the design, isn't it? And just a thought for your consideration - a fullhand design with integrated wrist rests are better for tenting. It's very tiring to float your hands all the time with a classic case when its so high up all the time.

By the way, the cuts you made are so much cleaner than the default ergodox cases. I bet you could sell those to people if the costs of your cutting isn't too high.

I completely agree about the floating, so tonight I did a new design:

Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14190.jpg)


I widened the edges a bit, and extended the palm rest, updating the design of the curve as I did. I also moved the pinkie keys down a few millimeters, which feels more comfortable to reach with. The result is far more comfortable than the previous iteration, so now I may just have to cut some pretty 6mm clear spacer pieces and peel off all that protective paper. I'll be able to test better when my new keycaps come in, but I think this is pretty damn close to where I want to be with it design wise.

Looks great, lookin forward to it hitin production.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: TheSoulhunter on Thu, 20 June 2013, 16:38:35
Nice, good job!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: lkey144 on Thu, 20 June 2013, 17:00:02
AcidFire, Are you done with the modification of the PCB? Are you planning on uploading them to the ergodox website?
Is it essentially just a Quadradox, with the thumb cluster split out of each of the main boards? If so, are you planning on using Ben's firmware?
 
Needless to say, you have piqued my interest.
Great work
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 21 June 2013, 00:06:53
AcidFire, Are you done with the modification of the PCB? Are you planning on uploading them to the ergodox website?
Is it essentially just a Quadradox, with the thumb cluster split out of each of the main boards? If so, are you planning on using Ben's firmware?
 
Needless to say, you have piqued my interest.
Great work

I haven't begun to work on the PCB yet as I've been trying to settle out on my layout first, but while it'll be similar to the ergodox layout there is definitely going to be a few changes:

- Each half will have a ATMEGA32u4 w/ an open source bootloader. I had considered just using the Teensy 2.0's, however open source & open hardware is very much a part of what I do for work that I don't feel right using something close sourced when I have other options. The ironic thing is, I'm using a full controller in each because I plan to use a Bluegiga WT12 bluetooth radio (which is closed source) in each half (eventually) to set the whole thing up as wireless and compatible w/ my mobile devices. If I produce a kit for this, the bluetooth would be an optional add on. If someone knows of a more open module that would allow me to actively switch between bluetooth connections (without having to cycle through them), i'd love to take a look at it.

- The keys themselves will most likely be a 7x5/8x5 matrix layout connected to a MCP23018, keeping it from eating all the I/O on the 32u4 as I have a few other things in mind and leaves more of it open to be hacked/used for other things down the road.

- The thumbpad will most likely be connected on an MCP23008 so that its simple to address/change, move, etc w/o needing large connectors.

Using an I2C bus for the keys allows for simple modifications & tweaks, especially w/ customizing the layout as the MCU will be laid out on a seperate board, and additional peripherals/keypads/foot switches could be added w/ minimal effort.

So basically, there will only need to be 4 pin connectors between each board and each half will have three boards for now (not including the bluetooth.)

There a few more additions/plans I have for the board that I'll be keeping a surprise for now, but I think they'll add an interesting touch to the project ;)

The other reason as well that I'm not planning to use existing firmware is that I plan to produce a proper configuration tool that would allow myself & others to configure/set keys w/o having to mess around with the firmware. I have it laid out right now to support 8+ layers, possibly more, all stored on the boards so that you can take your setup with you and not need the software.

As I've already had a few people inquire to a kit both here and in my office, the rough number I have for the base setup w/o keycaps is between 200-250, and probably another 50-100 for the wireless addon. Also, since I don't think I had made it clear at the start, everything I produce for this project will be released open source/open hardware, either when the project is complete or after I've made a kit available for sale.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Sniping on Fri, 21 June 2013, 00:31:19
Flawless!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Photoelectric on Fri, 21 June 2013, 01:36:40
That is awesome!! The grand piano look is unmistakable!!  Piano-Dox  ;D
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Larken on Fri, 21 June 2013, 03:07:12
Amazing job, though I'm not convinced of the new position of the thumb cluster.

Would it be possible for you to post top down pictures of your new design juxtaposed with the ergodox plate beside? It's hard to tell the exact positions from angled shots.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 21 June 2013, 04:05:50
Keep in mind when you see this, the drop of the thumb area makes a big difference in whats reachable:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14193.jpg)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Fri, 21 June 2013, 06:09:34


As I've already had a few people inquire to a kit both here and in my office, the rough number I have for the base setup w/o keycaps is between 200-250, and probably another 50-100 for the wireless addon. Also, since I don't think I had made it clear at the start, everything I produce for this project will be released open source/open hardware, either when the project is complete or after I've made a kit available for sale.

Is that with or without switches? I'd love to order one without, saving my whites for it.

Also, if the wireless also supports wired I'm totally in for (at least) one, if it doesn't I'm totally in for a wired.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 21 June 2013, 09:22:01


As I've already had a few people inquire to a kit both here and in my office, the rough number I have for the base setup w/o keycaps is between 200-250, and probably another 50-100 for the wireless addon. Also, since I don't think I had made it clear at the start, everything I produce for this project will be released open source/open hardware, either when the project is complete or after I've made a kit available for sale.

Is that with or without switches? I'd love to order one without, saving my whites for it.

Also, if the wireless also supports wired I'm totally in for (at least) one, if it doesn't I'm totally in for a wired.

I'm sure I'll be able to make a kit available without switches given how many people on here already have their preferences ;) How much that'll change price I'm not sure yet, probably 40-50.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Fri, 21 June 2013, 09:28:15
I'm sure I'll be able to make a kit available without switches given how many people on here already have their preferences ;) How much that'll change price I'm not sure yet, probably 40-50.

Yeah, sounds right. It's 44 on massdrop. It can be more or less depending on where you get your switches and how many you get.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 21 June 2013, 09:43:57
Oh and since I forgot to address it, with the wireless, yes it'll work while it's plugged in and charging. Nothing's worse that having your wireless keyboard go dead in the middle of a coding marathon ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: linziyi on Fri, 21 June 2013, 09:57:27
Any price range in mind?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Fri, 21 June 2013, 10:01:14
Oh and since I forgot to address it, with the wireless, yes it'll work while it's plugged in and charging. Nothing's worse that having your wireless keyboard go dead in the middle of a coding marathon ;)

Nice. I like wireless boards, but not buying batteries and not being able to plug in. You have officially designed my ideal (plausible) keyboard.

Will the data be over usb or bluetooth when it's in charging mode? Mostly ask since I'd like to be able to use it at the bios phase (or on others computers without bluetooth) when necessary.


Any price range in mind?
He said 200-250 plus 50-100 for wireless in an earlier post.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: linziyi on Fri, 21 June 2013, 10:24:30
hmm... the whole keyboard for 200~250 or just the case?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Fri, 21 June 2013, 10:26:58
hmm... the whole keyboard for 200~250 or just the case?
Since he said he would offer kits with the switches removed for 40-50 less, and the fact there's a seperate price for wireless, I'd venture to say it's the whole kit.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: linziyi on Fri, 21 June 2013, 10:38:14
hmm... the whole keyboard for 200~250 or just the case?
Since he said he would offer kits with the switches removed for 40-50 less, and the fact there's a seperate price for wireless, I'd venture to say it's the whole kit.

;D I would love a green switch one, looking forward for it!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 21 June 2013, 10:55:10
Oh and since I forgot to address it, with the wireless, yes it'll work while it's plugged in and charging. Nothing's worse that having your wireless keyboard go dead in the middle of a coding marathon ;)

Nice. I like wireless boards, but not buying batteries and not being able to plug in. You have officially designed my ideal (plausible) keyboard.

Will the data be over usb or bluetooth when it's in charging mode? Mostly ask since I'd like to be able to use it at the bios phase (or on others computers without bluetooth) when necessary.


Any price range in mind?
He said 200-250 plus 50-100 for wireless in an earlier post.

Yes, the USB will be prioritized when plugged in, but only when there's a data connection present. If it's only a power connection the bluetooth will stay connected.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: lkey144 on Fri, 21 June 2013, 13:31:20
Quote
- Each half will have a ATMEGA32u4 w/ an open source bootloader. I had considered just using the Teensy 2.0's, however open source & open hardware is very much a part of what I do for work that I don't feel right using something close sourced when I have other options. The ironic thing is, I'm using a full controller in each because I plan to use a Bluegiga WT12 bluetooth radio (which is closed source) in each half (eventually) to set the whole thing up as wireless and compatible w/ my mobile devices.

Hopefully portions of Ben's work, written in C and MIT licensed, will be useful when programming the ATMEGA. Specifically the macros, sticky keys, and the unicode string output. He put a lot of work into branch 2 https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/tree/partial-rewrite/firmware (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/tree/partial-rewrite/firmware). He also lists all the literature that he read when writing things up in the main branch

Quote
Using an I2C bus for the keys allows for simple modifications & tweaks, especially w/ customizing the layout as the MCU will be laid out on a separate board, and additional peripherals/keypads/foot switches could be added w/ minimal effort.

Ah foot switches for layer/mode switching, something that has been tumbling around in my head for some time, exciting.

Quote
So basically, there will only need to be 4 pin connectors between each board and each half will have three boards for now (not including the bluetooth.)

So the envsioned "full stack" would be:

Quote
There a few more additions/plans I have for the board that I'll be keeping a surprise for now, but I think they'll add an interesting touch to the project ;)

mutters impatiently

Quote
The other reason as well that I'm not planning to use existing firmware is that I plan to produce a proper configuration tool that would allow myself & others to configure/set keys w/o having to mess around with the firmware. I have it laid out right now to support 8+ layers, possibly more, all stored on the boards so that you can take your setup with you and not need the software.

Ambitious, I knew that ergodox had started something special but this has now reached the next level.

Quote
As I've already had a few people inquire to a kit both here and in my office, the rough number I have for the base setup w/o keycaps is between 200-250, and probably another 50-100 for the wireless addon. Also, since I don't think I had made it clear at the start, everything I produce for this project will be released open source/open hardware, either when the project is complete or after I've made a kit available for sale.

Are you prepared to handle the level of demand that you are likely to get? I believe that the initial massdrop generated 400+ sales, and many of those had additional constraints, both by region and order details(+/- various parts).
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 21 June 2013, 14:03:29
Quote
Hopefully portions of Ben's work, written in C and MIT licensed, will be useful when programming the ATMEGA. Specifically the macros, sticky keys, and the unicode string output. He put a lot of work into branch 2 https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/tree/partial-rewrite/firmware (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/tree/partial-rewrite/firmware). He also lists all the literature that he read when writing things up in the main branch

Most likely, I wasn't looking to start completely from scratch so I imagine I'll find it quite useful. Thanks for the link :)

Quote
Ah foot switches for layer/mode switching, something that has been tumbling around in my head for some time, exciting.

Once I finish my board layouts you'll see I am slightly OCD/Obsessed w/ modularity, I hate being locked into someone else's design, I wouldn't want to do that to someone else. So I try to make it as easy as possible to add to what I produce.

Quote
So the envsioned "full stack" would be:
  • ATmega32U4 * 2
  • ({7,8}x5) digit cluster * 2
  • variable thumb cluster via MCP230008 * 2
  • 1? BlueGiga WT12 Bluetooth (optional)
Pretty much, w/ a lipo charging & monitoring circuit for each board. Depending on how truely wireless I want to go, each half would have a bluetooth module, with one slaved to the other. The other option would be a pair of wireless radios in each talking to a base station that connects either via bluetooth or USB, which could also open the possibility of wireless footswitches, keypads, etc etc. Either would work in theory, remains to be seen how well it works in practice. I have access to both setups at work so there will be thorough testing for both.

Quote
mutters impatiently
I promise it'll all become clear once I get my PCBs done ;)

Quote
Ambitious, I knew that ergodox had started something special but this has now reached the next level.
I agree, the biggest issue I'm concerned with now is the best way to write something that's cross platform with as little work/modification needed for each as possible. Right now I'm leaning towards something in Java (I feel dirty just saying it.)

Quote
Are you prepared to handle the level of demand that you are likely to get? I believe that the initial massdrop generated 400+ sales, and many of those had additional constraints, both by region and order details(+/- various parts).
So far I don't see a problem. I work for a company that has a fair bit of experience producing electronics & robotics kits en masse, and they've already shown an interest in helping me to produce kits if that's the road I take.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: linziyi on Fri, 21 June 2013, 14:06:18
How would you deal with keycaps? not including them in the "retail" package?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 21 June 2013, 14:11:09
How would you deal with keycaps? not including them in the "retail" package?

Most likely would talk to someone like SP and offer a DCS or DSA set, all comes down to interest. Either way it would most likely be an optional cost since I would expect most here would be purchasing or would have their own keycaps anyways.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: lkey144 on Fri, 21 June 2013, 14:34:31
Quote
Right now I'm leaning towards something in Java (I feel dirty just saying it.)

Surely Python could handle the cross-platform config tool + gui with similar ease? AFAIK, at least one version comes standard on all 3 major operating systems, though I am not sure about Android or iOS.

Neither is my primary language but my blech! factor is much higher with Java.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 21 June 2013, 14:37:29
Quote
Right now I'm leaning towards something in Java (I feel dirty just saying it.)

Surely Python could handle the cross-platform config tool + gui with similar ease? AFAIK, at least one version comes standard on all 3 major operating systems, though I am not sure about Android or iOS.

Neither is my primary language but my blech! factor is much higher with Java.

I agree, but I've always had to do python installs on both linux & windows so I think I'm out of luck there. Believe me, the thought of using Java definitely leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. We'll see how things go with it.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Fri, 21 June 2013, 14:43:46
If the program is free software and uses the right libraries cross compilation shouldn't be too bad. It wouldn't be a single binary, but making three or four from the same source code is totally possible.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: lkey144 on Fri, 21 June 2013, 14:53:31
After a brief search I discovered that Python does not come standard in windows, but this exists http://www.py2exe.org/ (http://www.py2exe.org/). Which solves the windows problem, Most Linux distros and OSX come with python, Though I suppose that making an OSX binary would be fine too, given the homogeneity of the platform. I would be willing to do some leg work on figuring out the cross compilation situation with ARM and the phone OSes to avoid Java.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Binge on Fri, 21 June 2013, 14:57:34
Wanted to say that even though the response is a bit late your case is a really neat project.  Awesome job.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 21 June 2013, 15:17:50
After a brief search I discovered that Python does not come standard in windows, but this exists http://www.py2exe.org/ (http://www.py2exe.org/). Which solves the windows problem, Most Linux distros and OSX come with python, Though I suppose that making an OSX binary would be fine too, given the homogeneity of the platform. I would be willing to do some leg work on figuring out the cross compilation situation with ARM and the phone OSes to avoid Java.

I'm not worried about iOS development as that's something I'm spooling up for a side project for a client. The issues becomes  that you can't get Serial/SPP access from apple without going through their stupid MFi program. We can however get around that by using a Bluetooth 4 module instead of the Bluetooth 2 I have in mind since iOS doesn't seem to restrict SPP.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 21 June 2013, 17:53:16
This is pretty awsome. MAD PROPZ!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Sat, 22 June 2013, 18:44:36
Couple of quick ones for posture, I'll add new ones once I get proper keycaps in.
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/IMG_0659.jpg)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/IMG_0661.jpg)

On a seperate note, after soldering one side I'm going full tilt on the pcb layout, I forgot how much I hate having to dead bug designs.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Sat, 22 June 2013, 23:25:04
I'm curious how interested people might be in an add on that would give you addressable RGB LEDs for each key? With what I have in mind, it could be added later (with a bit of work) or the easier method which would be to add it while you're building the kit. The add on would probably cost 60-80 unless I can find cheaper versions of the LEDs I have in mind.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Sat, 22 June 2013, 23:27:46
I'm curious how interested people might be in an add on that would give you addressable RGB LEDs for each key? With what I have in mind, it could be added later (with a bit of work) or the easier method which would be to add it while you're building the kit. The add on would probably cost 60-80 unless I can find cheaper versions of the LEDs I have in mind.

If you did this it would no longer almost be my ideal board. There would be no need for the almost.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Sat, 22 June 2013, 23:32:09
I'm curious how interested people might be in an add on that would give you addressable RGB LEDs for each key? With what I have in mind, it could be added later (with a bit of work) or the easier method which would be to add it while you're building the kit. The add on would probably cost 60-80 unless I can find cheaper versions of the LEDs I have in mind.

If you did this it would no longer almost be my ideal board. There would be no need for the almost.

Lol, glad to hear it. I've put out a number of inquiries for the LEDs I need to see if I can get them lower than the price I've found. It'll be the last thing I develop, but I definitely would like to know if its something I need to keep in mind design wise.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Sat, 22 June 2013, 23:35:33
I'm curious how interested people might be in an add on that would give you addressable RGB LEDs for each key? With what I have in mind, it could be added later (with a bit of work) or the easier method which would be to add it while you're building the kit. The add on would probably cost 60-80 unless I can find cheaper versions of the LEDs I have in mind.

What LED do you have in mind. I did lots of research on this and I was only able to do this by using a surface mount RGB LED and dremeling out the LED spot (which isn't hard at all). If you could find on that does fit (3mm) each keyswitch only has two bottom holes (It looks like it is a full bar but the bottom half isn't) so you still have to dremel them out. I mention it because most people won't want to do it IMO. I love the idea of an RGB keyboard and wanted to do it with the Ergodox but it has to be built into the board because I just did a wired mod and it was insane with the wiring and that was just for one color. If you are interested the best and simpliest controller for the LEDs is the Colordunio. It can control 64 RGB leds and does white balance, etc. It can be controlled via I2C and you can chain them as they have I2C in and out, plus you slap an FTDI controller and you just plug and power it all via USB. It is a full arduino too and easy to program plus their is a c library so you can write you own code. For example you can do neat things like have the 1-9 keys show CPU usage or go from green to red to show it. I have tested this out and it is pretty neat. Also note if you get a surface mount part it has to be very bright, much brighter than you think in my tests because even with it drilled out you are just projecting a cone of light surrounded by very solid black opaque material and a little hole.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Sat, 22 June 2013, 23:36:21
I'm curious how interested people might be in an add on that would give you addressable RGB LEDs for each key? With what I have in mind, it could be added later (with a bit of work) or the easier method which would be to add it while you're building the kit. The add on would probably cost 60-80 unless I can find cheaper versions of the LEDs I have in mind.

If you did this it would no longer almost be my ideal board. There would be no need for the almost.

Lol, glad to hear it. I've put out a number of inquiries for the LEDs I need to see if I can get them lower than the price I've found. It'll be the last thing I develop, but I definitely would like to know if its something I need to keep in mind design wise.
I mean it's definitely the least necessary thing compared to everything else, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't want rainbows as I type if it's not too hard between having to make room for more traces on the pcb and firmware.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Sat, 22 June 2013, 23:51:44
I'm curious how interested people might be in an add on that would give you addressable RGB LEDs for each key? With what I have in mind, it could be added later (with a bit of work) or the easier method which would be to add it while you're building the kit. The add on would probably cost 60-80 unless I can find cheaper versions of the LEDs I have in mind.

What LED do you have in mind. I did lots of research on this and I was only able to do this by using a surface mount RGB LED and dremeling out the LED spot (which isn't hard at all). If you could find on that does fit (3mm) each keyswitch only has two bottom holes (It looks like it is a full bar but the bottom half isn't) so you still have to dremel them out. I mention it because most people won't want to do it IMO. I love the idea of an RGB keyboard and wanted to do it with the Ergodox but it has to be built into the board because I just did a wired mod and it was insane with the wiring and that was just for one color. If you are interested the best and simpliest controller for the LEDs is the Colordunio. It can control 64 RGB leds and does white balance, etc. It can be controlled via I2C and you can chain them as they have I2C in and out, plus you slap an FTDI controller and you just plug and power it all via USB. It is a full arduino too and easy to program plus their is a c library so you can write you own code. For example you can do neat things like have the 1-9 keys show CPU usage or go from green to red to show it. I have tested this out and it is pretty neat. Also note if you get a surface mount part it has to be very bright, much brighter than you think in my tests because even with it drilled out you are just projecting a cone of light surrounded by very solid black opaque material and a little hole.

The LEDs I have in mind are SMD, are roughly 2x1.5mm and RGB. I'd be using them in an array similar to the keys, using a set of 74HC595s & something along the lines of a ATMEGA8/168/328 on an I2C bus. We've already got libraries written for this at work so I can reduce the size of everything as much as possible. This board would come preassembled as it would be far simplier for me to troubleshoot and for you guys to put together if you don't have to solder 360 tiny leds. This would be the arrangement of the LEDs under the switch:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/rgb-leds.png)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Sat, 22 June 2013, 23:55:51
I mean it's definitely the least necessary thing compared to everything else, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't want rainbows as I type if it's not too hard between having to make room for more traces on the pcb and firmware.

It should be fairly simple to add to the firmware if the control of the LEDs are offloaded to a second controller. As for room on the board, this would be a second PCB so that it can be done as a reversible design just like the main board and not have to worry about how crowded the PCB is, and would be cheaper to produce since I'd only need one design for both sides.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: bazemk1979 on Sun, 23 June 2013, 00:07:44
amazing work OP
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Sun, 23 June 2013, 00:13:23
I'm curious how interested people might be in an add on that would give you addressable RGB LEDs for each key? With what I have in mind, it could be added later (with a bit of work) or the easier method which would be to add it while you're building the kit. The add on would probably cost 60-80 unless I can find cheaper versions of the LEDs I have in mind.

What LED do you have in mind. I did lots of research on this and I was only able to do this by using a surface mount RGB LED and dremeling out the LED spot (which isn't hard at all). If you could find on that does fit (3mm) each keyswitch only has two bottom holes (It looks like it is a full bar but the bottom half isn't) so you still have to dremel them out. I mention it because most people won't want to do it IMO. I love the idea of an RGB keyboard and wanted to do it with the Ergodox but it has to be built into the board because I just did a wired mod and it was insane with the wiring and that was just for one color. If you are interested the best and simpliest controller for the LEDs is the Colordunio. It can control 64 RGB leds and does white balance, etc. It can be controlled via I2C and you can chain them as they have I2C in and out, plus you slap an FTDI controller and you just plug and power it all via USB. It is a full arduino too and easy to program plus their is a c library so you can write you own code. For example you can do neat things like have the 1-9 keys show CPU usage or go from green to red to show it. I have tested this out and it is pretty neat. Also note if you get a surface mount part it has to be very bright, much brighter than you think in my tests because even with it drilled out you are just projecting a cone of light surrounded by very solid black opaque material and a little hole.

The LEDs I have in mind are SMD, are roughly 2x1.5mm and RGB. I'd be using them in an array similar to the keys, using a set of 74HC595s & something along the lines of a ATMEGA8/168/328 on an I2C bus. We've already got libraries written for this at work so I can reduce the size of everything as much as possible. This board would come preassembled as it would be far simplier for me to troubleshoot and for you guys to put together if you don't have to solder 360 tiny leds. This would be the arrangement of the LEDs under the switch:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/rgb-leds.png)


So is your idea to have all of them fully addressable or in sets of 4? I would assume as sets of 4 but I could do some really neat things if I could light different sections of a key up.

As for placement, in my test it was better to offset the LEDs so they are not right in the center. The reason being is that you are projecting the light in the thickest part of the key not in the wells of the key. This can be both good and bad but if you are using small LEDs. I would recommend setting them just off center a bit so you can avoid wasting light projecting it into the plus sign supports of the key and actually into the four wells of the key instead.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Sun, 23 June 2013, 00:23:04
So is your idea to have all of them fully addressable or in sets of 4? I would assume as sets of 4 but I could do some really neat things if I could light different sections of a key up.

As for placement, in my test it was better to offset the LEDs so they are not right in the center. The reason being is that you are projecting the light in the thickest part of the key not in the wells of the key. This can be both good and bad but if you are using small LEDs. I would recommend setting them just off center a bit so you can avoid wasting light projecting it into the plus sign supports of the key and actually into the four wells of the key instead.

Yes, the 4 LEDs would act as one for the first revision as doing independent control of each would be a fair bit more complicated, but I like the idea :) I've added it to my list of features to explore in a future revision.

As for the placement of the LEDs, I'm going to do a test board with each switch having the LEDs in a different position so I can do a visual test to see what would work.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: TD22057 on Sun, 23 June 2013, 18:39:15
OK - that is crazy cool.  I'll be following this with a lot of interest.  It will be really nice to see a custom wireless keyboard - I haven't been able to find any good examples on how to go about that.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Sun, 23 June 2013, 19:58:35
So is your idea to have all of them fully addressable or in sets of 4? I would assume as sets of 4 but I could do some really neat things if I could light different sections of a key up.

As for placement, in my test it was better to offset the LEDs so they are not right in the center. The reason being is that you are projecting the light in the thickest part of the key not in the wells of the key. This can be both good and bad but if you are using small LEDs. I would recommend setting them just off center a bit so you can avoid wasting light projecting it into the plus sign supports of the key and actually into the four wells of the key instead.

Yes, the 4 LEDs would act as one for the first revision as doing independent control of each would be a fair bit more complicated, but I like the idea :) I've added it to my list of features to explore in a future revision.

As for the placement of the LEDs, I'm going to do a test board with each switch having the LEDs in a different position so I can do a visual test to see what would work.

First revision as in software only or hardware too?
Would be nice if the traces were set up so it could be changed later in firmware, but I understand why that might not be plausible.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 24 June 2013, 02:20:01
First revision as in software only or hardware too?
Would be nice if the traces were set up so it could be changed later in firmware, but I understand why that might not be plausible.

Both, though it's mainly a hardware issue as it would be very complicated to wire 360 LEDs for individual control on a board that for the most part will be about 5mm wide between most of the holes. I won't say it's impossible yet, particularly w/ a 4 layer board, but the cost of something like that in order to recoup for the more expensive boards, design time, etc. would be fairly cost prohibitive for many that it may not be worth doing.


Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 24 June 2013, 14:10:09
So after doing a bit more research after some notes I had seen ic07 make on deskthority (http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/split-ergonomic-keyboard-project-t1753-960.html), I've started looking at other controller options to allow for what i want to do down the road. Right now I'm looking at a couple different controllers which are either cortex M3 or M4, USB capable AND right around the same price as the 32U4. The major advantage I get is a ton of programming room & plenty of ram, which should make it far more simpler to implement things like multiple layer management & macro recording/management.

Edit: I seem to be asleep at the wheel today, as I've completely spaced to the fact that the modularity of the design would allow for a processor upgrade w/ minimal effort down the road if I found the need to actually do it. Consider me back on the 32u4 wagon lol.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Mon, 24 June 2013, 21:32:14
So will I be able to talk to this via software/api over USB so I can do custom lighting which changes at runtime?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 25 June 2013, 14:19:43
So will I be able to talk to this via software/api over USB so I can do custom lighting which changes at runtime?

Thats the plan. The board will have some functionality that will require control over the LEDs for indication like battery life, which bluetooth device youre connected to, etc etc. but otherwise I'd like to make it available over software so people can set up patterns and other fun stuff :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Fri, 28 June 2013, 07:38:00
The led indicators sound pretty useful.

The battery one reminded me, what are you doing battery wise? Small rechargeable lithium battery? Really anything that lasts a good while (and can be replaced without soldering) is good.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 28 June 2013, 11:08:56
The led indicators sound pretty useful.

The battery one reminded me, what are you doing battery wise? Small rechargeable lithium battery? Really anything that lasts a good while (and can be replaced without soldering) is good.

I have a lipo battery in mind that is 3.7v & 2000mah, so I'll need a boost converter for it but the battery will be easily replaceable and require no soldering. Should last a week (I'm hoping) without needing a recharge, but we'll see how everything works out in reality.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Fri, 28 June 2013, 11:27:36

Should last a week (I'm hoping) without needing a recharge, but we'll see how everything works out in reality.

Sounds like plentiy, seeing as recharging is simple. Will probably be a lot less on average though, due to unexplainable desire to keep 300something leds on full brightness.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 28 June 2013, 17:57:23
Sounds like plentiy, seeing as recharging is simple. Will probably be a lot less on average though, due to unexplainable desire to keep 300something leds on full brightness.

Sometimes sacrifices need to made in the name of bling. However, it should be possible to add a secondary pack for those who need their LED fix while working wirelessly, it'll probably just take a little longer to charge ;)

Also, since I haven't posted any pics in a couple of days, I thought I would put up a couple more:
This is why I'm putting a lot of time into proper PCBs -_-
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/deadbug.jpg)

And some of my keycaps arrived, I had ordered these to flesh out a set I had bought in the Classified section that haven't arrived yet (tho fingers crossed for tuesday!)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/keycaps-temp.jpg)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: ShallowMoon on Sun, 30 June 2013, 10:43:57
Really nice work. Following this thread closely.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Sun, 30 June 2013, 17:31:26
Quick update to share, first spin of the main boards is nearly done, just need to run the I2C lines:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/boardside03.png)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/boardside04.png)

And a bit more detail around the microcontroller:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/boardside01.png)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/boardside02.png)

For those of you who are wondering, I'm going to try using one of the new AtTiny828 chips from Atmel for handling scanning the board and control of the LEDs in each key. The pair of 0805 pads you see to either side of the controller determine which side they are (right or left) and which address to use, meaning you could actually have 4 main boards connected at once  :eek: the same controller will be used for the thumbboards as well, because while it will be over kill, it'll also help keep pricing low and the code base similar.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: ShallowMoon on Mon, 01 July 2013, 03:03:52
This may be quite a subjective question, but what incline (degrees) seems to be the most comfortable when using 'The Grand Piano'?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 01 July 2013, 10:33:15
This may be quite a subjective question, but what incline (degrees) seems to be the most comfortable when using 'The Grand Piano'?

To be honest I haven't measured it yet, however I believe its 15-20 degrees. It's enough to force your hands to lift & tent without being overly uncomfortable and is actually pretty supportive. I'm still working on finding the best angle for it though.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: linziyi on Mon, 01 July 2013, 11:10:19
So you are planning to design/make the PCB at this point correct?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Mon, 01 July 2013, 13:48:48
PCB Looks great. So based on your PCB it looks like this version is for single channel through hole LEDs correct? Still interested in grabbing a board just curious.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 02 July 2013, 11:08:35
So you are planning to design/make the PCB at this point correct?
Yes, I expect I will be doing atleast one more PCB revision before settling on something I'd feel comfortable producing in volume. Right now these layouts are more of a testing set up than anything else, hence the two sets of 12 pin headers for the LEDs & switches. I'll be designing the thumbs and breakout boards for both the main 32u4 controllers, as well as a breakout for the 828 micros as well. I'm hoping to get my order in by Friday.


PCB Looks great. So based on your PCB it looks like this version is for single channel through hole LEDs correct? Still interested in grabbing a board just curious.
The single channel will always be a built in option. The RGB board I mentioned would be paired w/ a 1.5mm piece of acrylic or similar and would replace the switch mounting plate. Effectively, each key would have a central LED or ring of LEDs (or both if you so chose), but it gives the end user more options for customization, or not, depending on what they want to spend. If you were to choose to have both the central LED -and- the secondary ring, they would live on separate addresses in the API, allowing for total control for each key.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Tue, 02 July 2013, 16:26:10
Sounds great. Let me know where to throw my money if you are looking to get boards already
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Tue, 02 July 2013, 16:31:35
Sounds great. Let me know where to throw my money if you are looking to get boards already
Hey, I was offering to throw money first!

But seriously, this is sounding great, you're making amazingly fast progress. One of the fastest idea->prototype->production cycles for something of this scale I've seen if your pcb time estimates are correct.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Tue, 02 July 2013, 17:00:19
I'm just eager to start doing some programming for the lights after I finished my backlit Kinesis project
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 02 July 2013, 17:06:10
Sounds great. Let me know where to throw my money if you are looking to get boards already
Hey, I was offering to throw money first!

But seriously, this is sounding great, you're making amazingly fast progress. One of the fastest idea->prototype->production cycles for something of this scale I've seen if your pcb time estimates are correct.
Well the encouragement on this forum and elsewhere has been a big driving factor to the development time ;) I'm also now pushing to get it done sooner than later, since Kickstarter will be opening it's doors to Canada by the end of the summer. This would allow me to reach a broader audience quickly, meaning far less waiting for funding to do some of the stuff that's been earmarked as down the road, not to mention hopefully putting the kind of funds I need together to do proper backlit keys.

I'm just eager to start doing some programming for the lights after I finished my backlit Kinesis project

I have to warn you that I have no idea how long it'll take me to get the lighting API together as it definitely won't be the first priority on my list. I will see what I can do though.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Tue, 02 July 2013, 17:41:49
If there's any dev gel you need on the lighting let me know if I can help.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 03 July 2013, 10:55:00
If there's any dev gel you need on the lighting let me know if I can help.

Very much appreciated :)

Also, since I've got my first board prepped for prototyping, I thought I'd share:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/Mainboard-Rev1-Left.jpg)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/Mainboard-Rev1-Right.jpg)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: CPTBadAss on Wed, 03 July 2013, 10:57:07
That's awesome that you're taking this to a Kickstarter. I really like the concept and I'm eager to see where this is going in the future.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: linziyi on Wed, 03 July 2013, 11:15:22
:O it's on kickstarter?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 03 July 2013, 11:21:02
That's awesome that you're taking this to a Kickstarter. I really like the concept and I'm eager to see where this is going in the future.
:O it's on kickstarter?
It isn't up yet as I've still got a ways to go to a working prototype & Kickstarter isn't available directly to Canadians yet. They've announced that it'll be available to us by the end of the summer, so I've got lots of time to develop and put together a good project. I'll be sure to let everyone know when it's available.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Glod on Wed, 03 July 2013, 11:36:58
i like where this is going except i am still not thrilled about the feet if you are still going that direction of the poles.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 03 July 2013, 11:47:52
i like where this is going except i am still not thrilled about the feet if you are still going that direction of the poles.

Not at all, the feet haven't changed because I haven't had the time to design a better system for adjustable tenting, I'm not a fan of them myself either :P
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Wed, 03 July 2013, 11:50:07
Say, is the final case going to be layered acrylic or something else? If it's something else, look at the feet on the apple adjustable II. I couldn't see it working well not built into the case though.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 03 July 2013, 12:11:56
Say, is the final case going to be layered acrylic or something else? If it's something else, look at the feet on the apple adjustable II. I couldn't see it working well not built into the case though.

I've been debating on this, and what I think will end up happening is to offer the Acrylic as the "budget" case as machining or injection molding something will take a bit more investment to get set up. What I will probably do is offer other case options down the road that can replace the acrylic without costing an arm and a leg on their own, but again, it'll all come down to cost.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 03 July 2013, 19:59:58
More progress tonight, got two versions of the thumb boards done:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/Thumbboard-Rev1-S01.jpg)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/Thumbboard-Rev1-S02.jpg)
I also did the ATTINY828 Breakout that I wanted, so the only thing left before the boards go in for manufacture is the main controller :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Sai on Wed, 03 July 2013, 21:03:02
subscribed to the thread so that i can keep track of the progress of this one and the kickstarter.  :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Thu, 04 July 2013, 13:21:44
Looks great!

One thought while handling the layout for LEDs it would be great if there were the ability to handle extra LEDs other than just the ones for the keys. Maybe 10 extra (or what ever works out) so I could add custom things like which layer is on, etc
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 04 July 2013, 13:31:39
Looks great!

One thought while handling the layout for LEDs it would be great if there were the ability to handle extra LEDs other than just the ones for the keys. Maybe 10 extra (or what ever works out) so I could add custom things like which layer is on, etc
I have something else in mind for that ;) It won't be a part of the initial project, but I've already built in the capacity to add it quickly.

I do have a question for those of you who are following this project. Do you prefer the Mini-B usb or Micro-B usb connection? I personally lean towards Mini-B for applications like this where you don't really need the Micro, but I'm curious to see what you guys prefer.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: MOZ on Thu, 04 July 2013, 13:54:01
Mini.

I find it "sticks" better.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: linziyi on Thu, 04 July 2013, 14:02:24
I don’t know why but I always fear of easily breaking the micro usb :S
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Thu, 04 July 2013, 14:32:23
Probably mini just because I always seem to have extra mini cables lying around
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 04 July 2013, 15:25:21
I don’t know why but I always fear of easily breaking the micro usb :S
I've actually broken the connector off a couple of breakout boards before while fighting the locking connectors, hence my hesitation to use it for this.
Mini.

I find it "sticks" better.
Probably mini just because I always seem to have extra mini cables lying around

I'm glad to see I wasn't crazy in sticking with the older style. Finished the last board I need to get my PCB order in:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/CPUboard-Rev1.jpg)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Thu, 04 July 2013, 16:12:24
Are u open to us sending you money to get an extra board with your order?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 04 July 2013, 16:32:59
Are u open to us sending you money to get an extra board with your order?

I'm not sure how comfortable I feel about that as these are very much prototype boards, it's something I would have to give some thought to. If anything I'll order a few spares and if I decide I don't need them I'll look at making them available to a few people.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Thu, 04 July 2013, 16:47:32
Are u open to us sending you money to get an extra board with your order?

No problem. :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 04 July 2013, 17:26:20
Are u open to us sending you money to get an extra board with your order?

No problem. :)

Sorry, though I do appreciate all the enthusiasm :) Once I've got them up and running I'll be open to taking applications for a closed beta, will probably do 10-20 beta sets to get some proper feedback. This will all come down to timing, as producing beta testing units will be expensive for me and I really hate the idea of asking for cash to participate in the testing. Hopefully it'll work out timewise that a successful run on kickstarter would pay for beta units as part of the development process, so we'll see.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: bbl on Thu, 04 July 2013, 22:53:38
What is the timeline for mass-production and shipment?  Based on your progress, it looks we can see the final product by the end of this year. 

Also, a few suggestions:
1. Have legend keycaps to ensure there is a higher level of acceptance at Kickstarter.
2. Offer a choice of cases.  As you know, acrylic has a number of drawbacks.  Aluminium will probably have problem with wireless.  Have you considered carbon fiber?  It will be the coolest KB in the market.
3. If you can put a trackpoint/trackball on the right-hand side (in your future development), it will be my ideal KB.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: ShallowMoon on Fri, 05 July 2013, 07:19:11
You should compare Kickstarter to a website called Indiegogo, I heard they take less commission compared to Kickstarter.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 05 July 2013, 10:15:42
What is the timeline for mass-production and shipment?  Based on your progress, it looks we can see the final product by the end of this year. 

Also, a few suggestions:
1. Have legend keycaps to ensure there is a higher level of acceptance at Kickstarter.
2. Offer a choice of cases.  As you know, acrylic has a number of drawbacks.  Aluminium will probably have problem with wireless.  Have you considered carbon fiber?  It will be the coolest KB in the market.
3. If you can put a trackpoint/trackball on the right-hand side (in your future development), it will be my ideal KB.
1. I absolutely agree, and once I've got a better idea of what I need I'll be talking to someone like SP to make this happen.
2. That's the plan, though not initially. While the acrylic definitely has its drawbacks, it's the cheapest medium for me to produce cases at the start. I do however plan to offer additional styles/materials as overage goals on the kickstarter.
3. Thats definitely on the list, as a programmer I would prefer not to move my hands off my keyboard just to highlight a snippet of text. What I'm hoping to do is offer one as part of the modular thumb system in the near future.
 
You should compare Kickstarter to a website called Indiegogo, I heard they take less commission compared to Kickstarter.
I have, and while Indiegogo is nice for fees and the fact that you can do flex funding, they don't attract nearly the traffic or attention that projects on kickstarter do. We know several people who have campaigned on both platforms and we've been told time and again that kickstarter was the much bigger draw/success.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 05 July 2013, 20:32:49
So, since my first revision board layouts have gone in, control electronics have been ordered, and quote requests sent for keys & caps, I did a quick test layout for the RGB board:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/LEDConcept-Rev1.jpg)
Unfortunately, the default footprint for the led I have in mind is a bit too big. I'm not yet deterred, I have a couple ideas on how to reduce them to fit.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Fri, 05 July 2013, 20:37:01
What about a diagonal layout at the corners? Should give you more rooms as the switches are rounded and pins can hang out on both sides
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Sun, 07 July 2013, 17:40:13
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/LEDConcept-Rev2.jpg)
It definitely works out better, however I'd have to do some real world testing to see how well they light a key evenly.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Sun, 07 July 2013, 19:06:13
It definitely works out better, however I'd have to do some real world testing to see how well they light a key evenly.

Don't know if you remember but I mentioned I did testing like this with the offset layout like you did here with surface mount parts and it actually works out much much better because when they are centered you are splitting one of the bars of the plus sign with each led. This way it works out much much better because you fill the well of the keys and results in much more even coloring. Also it helps shin through the keys because the bars of the plus sign are much much thicker.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Sun, 07 July 2013, 23:01:46
It definitely works out better, however I'd have to do some real world testing to see how well they light a key evenly.

Don't know if you remember but I mentioned I did testing like this with the offset layout like you did here with surface mount parts and it actually works out much much better because when they are centered you are splitting one of the bars of the plus sign with each led. This way it works out much much better because you fill the well of the keys and results in much more even coloring. Also it helps shin through the keys because the bars of the plus sign are much much thicker.

Very true, do you remember what viewing angle the LEDs you tested were?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Sun, 07 July 2013, 23:25:55
Hmmm. That is a great question and I remember making spreedsheets but I need to find them but it is one of those loss of hard drive things. I remember looking at a number of them. The only one I can think of right of the bat was the first one I did a quick test on. It is obviously WAY too big but it is what I had on hand because it is very common in arduino work. That one is the 5050 https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10866

Not really too helpful but I know most of them looked very good that were much smaller viewing angles (don't remember how small) as long as you used two. I didn't do as many tests with four LEDs because I didn't know I could wire four. I would imagine you could get pretty narrow unless you have completely transparent keycaps as they will serve as a diffuser.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 08 July 2013, 00:26:31
Hmmm. That is a great question and I remember making spreedsheets but I need to find them but it is one of those loss of hard drive things. I remember looking at a number of them. The only one I can think of right of the bat was the first one I did a quick test on. It is obviously WAY too big but it is what I had on hand because it is very common in arduino work. That one is the 5050 https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10866

Not really too helpful but I know most of them looked very good that were much smaller viewing angles (don't remember how small) as long as you used two. I didn't do as many tests with four LEDs because I didn't know I could wire four. I would imagine you could get pretty narrow unless you have completely transparent keycaps as they will serve as a diffuser.

Actually thats perfect as that answers my question, the LEDs I put the pads down have the same viewing angle. Your right though, the ones I have are a fair bit narrower @ 1.6mm. I've got it marked higher on my list, possibly as an overage goal for kickstarter.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 08 July 2013, 19:00:23
So, a quick update for those of you who might be interested in a kit. I've got my first round of quotes back, and for PCBs:
Each kit is 2x Main, 2x Thumb, 1x CPU
50   - $34.00
125 - $19.80
250 - $15.12
Keep in mind, this doesn't include the setup costs which is roughly $175/board for the main & thumb. I've also asked them to quote me for 500 kits.

Also, SP got back to me with some numbers as well. The kit as I requested it:
- 58x Size 1 DSA
- 14x Size 1.5 DSA
- 6x Size 2 DSA

Kit 1 - Clear ABS - Blank
100 sets                 $28.28 per set
150 sets                 $27.77 per set
200 sets                 $27.51 per set
250 sets                 $27.36 per set
500 sets                 $27.05 per set

Kit 2 - Clear ABS, Vinyl Coating (Black) to allow for etching
100 sets                 $50.59 per set
150 sets                 $50.10 per set
200 sets                 $49.85 per set
250 sets                 $49.71 per set
500 sets                 $49.41 per set

I haven't asked them for the regular caps yet as these were the prices I was more interested in. The clear ABS is pretty reasonable. The coated black seem a bit pricy, but I've also never seen the finish on them either. Melissa @ SP is sending me a couple of the coated keys to try out in the laser and see if they're worth getting, in the meantime I'm going to do a bit more reading and see if I can come up with a better solution.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Mon, 08 July 2013, 23:09:21
So, a quick update for those of you who might be interested in a kit. I've got my first round of quotes back, and for PCBs:
Each kit is 2x Main, 2x Thumb, 1x CPU
50   - $34.00
125 - $19.80
250 - $15.12
Keep in mind, this doesn't include the setup costs which is roughly $175/board for the main & thumb. I've also asked them to quote me for 500 kits.

Also, SP got back to me with some numbers as well. The kit as I requested it:
- 58x Size 1 DSA
- 14x Size 1.5 DSA
- 6x Size 2 DSA

Kit 1 - Clear ABS - Blank
100 sets                 $28.28 per set
150 sets                 $27.77 per set
200 sets                 $27.51 per set
250 sets                 $27.36 per set
500 sets                 $27.05 per set

Kit 2 - Clear ABS, Vinyl Coating (Black) to allow for etching
100 sets                 $50.59 per set
150 sets                 $50.10 per set
200 sets                 $49.85 per set
250 sets                 $49.71 per set
500 sets                 $49.41 per set

I haven't asked them for the regular caps yet as these were the prices I was more interested in. The clear ABS is pretty reasonable. The coated black seem a bit pricy, but I've also never seen the finish on them either. Melissa @ SP is sending me a couple of the coated keys to try out in the laser and see if they're worth getting, in the meantime I'm going to do a bit more reading and see if I can come up with a better solution.

There is a clear pbt/polycarb blend that may be interesting as a premium set.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 10 July 2013, 17:17:39
There is a clear pbt/polycarb blend that may be interesting as a premium set.

Good to know, I'll have to look into it. I've also messaged GMK to see if I can get pricing for a full set of keys w/ LED windows.

Also, I found a bit of time to sit down and better outline what I have planned for the initial stage of this project.

*** Revision 1 Features ***
- 80-102 Keys (varies depending on choosen thumbpad layout)
- 80-102 Individually addressable LEDs, one for each key, single color, brightness adjustable including fades
- Interchangable thumb pads, large variety to choose from
- Thumb pads sit 9mm lower than main keys for a more natural position
- Each half can operate individually (2 USB ports) or together (1 USB port + connecting cable)
- Customizable Layout - 8 Layers to start, expandable w/ add on
- Programmable macros for every key on each layer
- Layouts & macros stored on board, take them with the board
- GUI interface for programming layouts & macros
- Simple API for controlling keyboard LEDs over serial
- 6KRO+modifiers w/ USB, NKRO w/ PS/2 Option
- Breakout headers - keys, LEDs, I2C bus, ISP headers for everything on the board for easy hackability
- Mini-B USB connector
- Accepts Cherry MX switches (may look into an Alps version)
- Slick black PCBs w/ white silkscreening
- Laser cut acrylic case

** Optional **
- Laser cut acrylic tenting add on, including pieces for 5, 10, 15 & 20 degrees
- PS/2 connector (Need to find the connectors for making cables)

** Main Board **
- ATTINY828 controller
- Doubled sided, reversible PCB design
- 4 i2c addresses available - 2 for left, 2 for right
- Simple i2c commands for scanning keys or setting LEDs
- 32 Keys Per Side
 - 25 Size 1x
 - 7  Size 1.5x
- Using the middle finger as a reference:
 - Pinkie Add. - 5x size 1.5 - 8mm lower
 - Pinkie - 5x size 1 - 8mm lower
 - Ring - 5x size 1 - 2mm lower
 - Index - 5x size 1 - 4mm lower
 - Index Add. - 4x size 1 - 6mm lower
 - Index Add. - 1x size 1, 2x size 1.5 - 6mm lower

** Thumb Board **
- ATTINY828 controller
- Doubled sided, reversible PCB design
- 4 i2c addresses available - 2 for left, 2 for right (different from main board)
- Simple i2c commands for scanning keys or setting LEDs
- 8-11 Keys per side, depending on layout
- 9mm drop, 25 degree angle from main layout
- Variety of layouts possible, 5 minutes to switch/change

** CPU Board **
- ATMEGA 32U4 controller
- Double ended design, allowing for use in left or right half
- MiniB-USB port
- header for optional PS/2 cable
- 2-4 i2c addresses for daisy chaining

*** Licensing ***
- Hardware & Software will be released CC BY-SA, most likely after the first revision is made available commercially (aka successful kickstarter.)

*** Future Revisions/Addons ***
- 10 Key Pad Addon
 - Can be added to left or right
 - Reversible PCB
 - Addressable LEDs

- Base Station Addon
 - 16 key matrix assignable by layer
 - 16 Addressable LEDs for keys
 - 4 Additional RGB status LEDs
 - Possible bluetooth hub for computers without bluetooth radio
 - Additional power, providing a faster recharge rate for bluetooth addons

- Keyless Base Station Addon
  - Possible bluetooth hub for computers without bluetooth radio
 - Additional power, providing a faster recharge rate for bluetooth addons

- Bluetooth Wireless Addon
 - Independent radio & battery for each half, completely wireless
 - User replaceable 3.7v 2000mah LIPO battery
 - Recharge via USB cables
 - Board switches to USB automatically when plugged in
 - Windows/Linux/OSX/iOS/Android compatible
 - Switch between 8-16 bluetooth devices at the touch of a button

- Memory Addon
 - Expandable memory allows for more layers & macros to be stored

- Trackpoint Addon
 - Adds a trackpoint mouse to either thumb, with mouse buttons assignable to any key or a second set of buttons on the opposite half

- Footswitch Addon
 - Assignable for each layer
 - Multiple switches supported

- Bling Addon
 - Plate replacement board, with 4 RGB leds per key, each key retains its addressability
 - Additional RGB LEDs for the clear 6mm pieces, letting you turn your board into something out of Tron

Hopefully that covers everything for now and clarifies the direction I plan to take this in.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Wed, 10 July 2013, 17:35:52
So let me get this straight, it's modular. Damn, now I'm going to have to spend a fortune buying keyboard modules.
Not that I'm complaining  :D.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 10 July 2013, 17:49:19
So let me get this straight, it's modular. Damn, now I'm going to have to spend a fortune buying keyboard modules.
Not that I'm complaining  :D.

Modular and then some ;) This is what happens when you grow up with a minor Lego obsession, you develop this desire to not be tied to just one design.

As for the modules, with maybe the exception of the bluetooth addon, everything I'll make available seperately, thumb pads, addons, etc. will not face a ridiculous mark up. To give you an example, I plan to release thumb pad modules w/ everything included (PCB, plate, switches, caps) at around the $20-25 dollar mark. This whole project started because I wanted something smarter, more comfortable at a rate that I could afford myself. I'd be very hypocritical to turn around and make it super expensive.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Wed, 10 July 2013, 18:22:57
You probably don't want completely (or near completely transparent/clear keycaps). The LEDs will not diffuse and it looks fairly poor. I would recommend asking SP about a semi transparent set not clear. Have you seen my video of the led lighting I did for my Kinesis a few weeks back? Those are semi transparent and the diffuse fairly well but not completely I would image anything less and it would be difficult to look at even with wide angle LEDs
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 10 July 2013, 18:32:29
You probably don't want completely (or near completely transparent/clear keycaps). The LEDs will not diffuse and it looks fairly poor. I would recommend asking SP about a semi transparent set not clear. Have you seen my video of the led lighting I did for my Kinesis a few weeks back? Those are semi transparent and the diffuse fairly well but not completely I would image anything less and it would be difficult to look at even with wide angle LEDs

I asked but unfortunately was told that they don't have anything semi transparent, so I'd probably have to look elsewhere. Perhaps something I need to ask GMK about.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Wed, 10 July 2013, 20:54:06
You probably don't want completely (or near completely transparent/clear keycaps). The LEDs will not diffuse and it looks fairly poor. I would recommend asking SP about a semi transparent set not clear. Have you seen my video of the led lighting I did for my Kinesis a few weeks back? Those are semi transparent and the diffuse fairly well but not completely I would image anything less and it would be difficult to look at even with wide angle LEDs

I asked but unfortunately was told that they don't have anything semi transparent, so I'd probably have to look elsewhere. Perhaps something I need to ask GMK about.
They do, the frosted pbt/poly caps. They just don't have full sets yet.

And those module prices sound great. Especially if they're offered without switches too (I have a bunch of extra whites to use for everything).
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: linziyi on Wed, 10 July 2013, 23:30:00
So, a quick update for those of you who might be interested in a kit. I've got my first round of quotes back, and for PCBs:
Each kit is 2x Main, 2x Thumb, 1x CPU
50   - $34.00
125 - $19.80
250 - $15.12
Keep in mind, this doesn't include the setup costs which is roughly $175/board for the main & thumb. I've also asked them to quote me for 500 kits.

Also, SP got back to me with some numbers as well. The kit as I requested it:
- 58x Size 1 DSA
- 14x Size 1.5 DSA
- 6x Size 2 DSA

Kit 1 - Clear ABS - Blank
100 sets                 $28.28 per set
150 sets                 $27.77 per set
200 sets                 $27.51 per set
250 sets                 $27.36 per set
500 sets                 $27.05 per set

Kit 2 - Clear ABS, Vinyl Coating (Black) to allow for etching
100 sets                 $50.59 per set
150 sets                 $50.10 per set
200 sets                 $49.85 per set
250 sets                 $49.71 per set
500 sets                 $49.41 per set

I haven't asked them for the regular caps yet as these were the prices I was more interested in. The clear ABS is pretty reasonable. The coated black seem a bit pricy, but I've also never seen the finish on them either. Melissa @ SP is sending me a couple of the coated keys to try out in the laser and see if they're worth getting, in the meantime I'm going to do a bit more reading and see if I can come up with a better solution.


So about $250+switches for a fully functional board? That's very nice!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 10 July 2013, 23:40:45
Because I can't leave well enough alone while I wait (impatiently) for my PCBs, I think I've nailed it for the case design. I've eliminated the need for nuts, and the design only uses 20mm M3 screws now. I also designed a stand to tent them properly:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14204.jpg)

While designing the stand, I had an epiphany, made a design tweak and...
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14209.jpg)
should make it quite comfortable to use with a laptop without using a ton of extra desk space.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 10 July 2013, 23:41:59
So about $250+switches for a fully functional board? That's very nice!

Actually, if I get the numbers back that I'm hoping for for the switches, it should be more like $200 including caps & switches.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Glod on Thu, 11 July 2013, 00:04:27
i like updated tenting/feet

very much interested in joining in on this kit.

Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: nubbinator on Thu, 11 July 2013, 00:23:26
I love it, it looks amazing.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Larken on Thu, 11 July 2013, 00:29:35
So about $250+switches for a fully functional board? That's very nice!

Actually, if I get the numbers back that I'm hoping for for the switches, it should be more like $200 including caps & switches.

definitely interested in getting one if that's the range the price will be at. looking great.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: MOZ on Thu, 11 July 2013, 04:25:58
Can you post more pictures of the tenting system. Interested, I might use something like this for my upcoming Ergodox.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 12 July 2013, 03:08:27
Can you post more pictures of the tenting system. Interested, I might use something like this for my upcoming Ergodox.

Hopefully these are helpful to you:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14223.jpg)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14224.jpg)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14230.jpg)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Tarzan on Fri, 12 July 2013, 08:07:16
Can you post more pictures of the tenting system. Interested, I might use something like this for my upcoming Ergodox.

Hopefully these are helpful to you:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14223.jpg)

Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14224.jpg)

Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14230.jpg)


Goodness gracious!  That is a beautiful prototype!

Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 12 July 2013, 09:15:13
Ooo! Me want!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: MOZ on Fri, 12 July 2013, 09:19:20
Thanks, those should help
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: tgujay on Fri, 12 July 2013, 09:56:50
My god, this project is beautiful.  Sexiest keyboard.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 12 July 2013, 10:33:04
I agree. You have a great sense for design, AcidFire.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 12 July 2013, 10:41:47
Can you post more pictures of the tenting system. Interested, I might use something like this for my upcoming Ergodox.

Hopefully these are helpful to you:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14223.jpg)

Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14224.jpg)

Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14230.jpg)


Goodness gracious!  That is a beautiful prototype!



I agree. You have a great sense for design, AcidFire.

My god, this project is beautiful.  Sexiest keyboard.

I love it, it looks amazing.

Thanks folks, the encouragement is much appreciated and very gratifying considering this is my first kick at the can with custom mech keyboards :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: tgujay on Fri, 12 July 2013, 11:12:37
Can you post more pictures of the tenting system. Interested, I might use something like this for my upcoming Ergodox.

Hopefully these are helpful to you:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14223.jpg)

Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14224.jpg)

Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14230.jpg)


Goodness gracious!  That is a beautiful prototype!



I agree. You have a great sense for design, AcidFire.

My god, this project is beautiful.  Sexiest keyboard.

I love it, it looks amazing.

Thanks folks, the encouragement is much appreciated and very gratifying considering this is my first kick at the can with custom mech keyboards :)

Wat.  Impossible.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 12 July 2013, 11:21:04
this is my first kick at the can with custom mech keyboards :)

I don't believe you one bit.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 12 July 2013, 11:35:47
Wat.  Impossible.

I don't believe you one bit.

Haha, seriously. With the exception of my Amiga 500 w/ NMB Hi-Tek switches, I've never owned a proper mech keyboard, nor was properly aware of their existence until early June. I was down in Seattle for the Mini Maker Faire, was visiting the Metrix Create Space and one of the fellows there was working on a custom wired board using browns I think wired to a Teensy 3.0. This peaked my interest as I love this kind of customization (or customization of any kind, I like making things my own) and a bit of research led me from the Kinesis boards to the ErgoDox to here. I have to give credit to Litster for his original design, without his I think mine would be quite different (and not in a good way.)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 12 July 2013, 11:40:22
Wat.  Impossible.

I don't believe you one bit.

Haha, seriously. With the exception of my Amiga 500 w/ NMB Hi-Tek switches, I've never owned a proper mech keyboard, nor was properly aware of their existence until early June. I was down in Seattle for the Mini Maker Faire, was visiting the Metrix Create Space and one of the fellows there was working on a custom wired board using browns I think wired to a Teensy 3.0. This peaked my interest as I love this kind of customization (or customization of any kind, I like making things my own) and a bit of research led me from the Kinesis boards to the ErgoDox to here. I have to give credit to Litster for his original design, without his I think mine would be quite different (and not in a good way.)

Sweet. So you built your fist real keyboard?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 12 July 2013, 12:01:00
Pretty much. I have a tendency to jump in with both feet whenever I get into something new :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: thadood on Fri, 12 July 2013, 13:38:08
Any chance of that those stands being compatible with the regular Ergodox case? =p
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: SeriouSSpotS on Fri, 12 July 2013, 13:41:03
It all looks really well made, nice work. PS: You could sell this.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 12 July 2013, 14:24:41
Any chance of that those stands being compatible with the regular Ergodox case? =p
I could probably design a similar stand for the ergodox, depending on how much interest there is.

It all looks really well made, nice work. PS: You could sell this.
Thank you! I've had such positive & encouraging feedback that I'm moving towards making these available for sale. I'm currently looking at:
Case+Electronics = $120.00
Case+Electronics+Switches -or- Caps = $160.00
Case+Electronics+Switches+Caps = $200.00
Completely Assembled+Tested = $250.00

Depending on what kind of funding I get, I'm also looking to offer injection molded & anodized aluminum cases.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Glod on Fri, 12 July 2013, 14:41:27
How hard would the kits be to put together? i guess im not worried about the amount of time more im more worried about the SMD stuff, would the SMD components be presoldered? $160 not bad though case i already have switches.

any case that doesn't attract fingerprints would be nice, maybe even a matte surface acrylic, i dislike shiny acrylic on keyboards, specially clear and especially one that my sweaty greasy hands palms would rest on.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 12 July 2013, 14:50:19
All the components, with the exception of the switches, will be SMD placed, so assembly will entail mounting and soldering your switches and assembling the case.

I agree about the acrylic, tho the shiny black does look pretty slick, even with some fingerprints.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Tarzan on Fri, 12 July 2013, 15:04:21
Any chance of that those stands being compatible with the regular Ergodox case? =p
I could probably design a similar stand for the ergodox, depending on how much interest there is.

It all looks really well made, nice work. PS: You could sell this.
Thank you! I've had such positive & encouraging feedback that I'm moving towards making these available for sale. I'm currently looking at:
Case+Electronics = $120.00
Case+Electronics+Switches -or- Caps = $160.00
Case+Electronics+Switches+Caps = $200.00
Completely Assembled+Tested = $250.00

Depending on what kind of funding I get, I'm also looking to offer injection molded & anodized aluminum cases.

Let me know when I can throw money at you.

Seriously.

 ;D
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 12 July 2013, 15:10:00
Any chance of that those stands being compatible with the regular Ergodox case? =p
I could probably design a similar stand for the ergodox, depending on how much interest there is.

It all looks really well made, nice work. PS: You could sell this.
Thank you! I've had such positive & encouraging feedback that I'm moving towards making these available for sale. I'm currently looking at:
Case+Electronics = $120.00
Case+Electronics+Switches -or- Caps = $160.00
Case+Electronics+Switches+Caps = $200.00
Completely Assembled+Tested = $250.00

Depending on what kind of funding I get, I'm also looking to offer injection molded & anodized aluminum cases.

Let me know when I can throw money at you.

Seriously.

 ;D

Keep watching this space, hopefully the first details for the kickstarter will go up in august :D

Out of curiousity, what types of switches would everyone be looking for? I've got a quote request out to a few places for pretty much all the common colors, but it would be helpful to have a bit more of a solid idea.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: linziyi on Fri, 12 July 2013, 15:13:30
I think clear and green would be very nice.

Or maybe other rarer switches would be nice (I am looking forward to super-black lol)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Fri, 12 July 2013, 15:13:36
White.

I ran a gb and still get PMs from people wanting some of them. You could buy every white switch cherry ever made and sell out.


Clear/green is popular too.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Tarzan on Fri, 12 July 2013, 15:16:17
Keep watching this space, hopefully the first details for the kickstarter will go up in august :D

Out of curiousity, what types of switches would everyone be looking for? I've got a quote request out to a few places for pretty much all the common colors, but it would be helpful to have a bit more of a solid idea.

For myself, I've already got the switches I want to use.  Judging from expressed interest in other threads, I would suggest MX Clear, White, and Greens.  But I've also seen people lately looking for MX Brown, so I may be off base.

Maybe see what you can get, let people choose from those options? 
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: xman on Fri, 12 July 2013, 15:34:30

Also, I found a bit of time to sit down and better outline what I have planned for the initial stage of this project.

*** Revision 1 Features ***
- 6KRO+modifiers w/ USB, NKRO w/ PS/2 Option


Is full NKRO over PS2 just a possibility?
Or has it actually been functionally tested?

What I'm asking is if you know if the KB controller
that you have in mind has a history of actually being
capable of doing full NKRO over PS2.

Having that capability, plus using Soarer's converter,
will result in full NKRO over USB.
And that will be 100% working on everything, including Macs.

Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 12 July 2013, 15:39:28
For myself, I've already got the switches I want to use.  Judging from expressed interest in other threads, I would suggest MX Clear, White, and Greens.  But I've also seen people lately looking for MX Brown, so I may be off base.

Maybe see what you can get, let people choose from those options? 


I should be able to get anything thats currently in production, the biggest thing is ordering in numbers large enough to get a solid discount on so I can make the kits cheaper. On that note, is a small premium ($10-20) for the less commonly found, like the greens or reds, a reasonable thing?


Is full NKRO over PS2 just a possibility?
Or has it actually been functionally tested?

What I'm asking is if you know if the KB controller
that you have in mind has a history of actually being
capable of doing full NKRO over PS2.

Having that capability, plus using Soarer's converter,
will result in full NKRO over USB.
And that will be 100% working on everything, including Macs.

The library I'm working from is set up for it, and I know the controller can handle it, but at this point I don't have my boards yet on hand to test it for myself, but I plan to make it happen one way or the other. Would you mind linking me to Soarer's converter?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Fri, 12 July 2013, 16:25:08
Out of curiousity, what types of switches would everyone be looking for? I've got a quote request out to a few places for pretty much all the common colors, but it would be helpful to have a bit more of a solid idea.

I use blues for keyboards like this as I use them for typing. I also like browns because I use a kinesis and might choose those too.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 12 July 2013, 16:39:49
Out of curiousity, what types of switches would everyone be looking for? I've got a quote request out to a few places for pretty much all the common colors, but it would be helpful to have a bit more of a solid idea.

I use blues for keyboards like this as I use them for typing. I also like browns because I use a kinesis and might choose those too.

Yeah I've been interested to try browns myself. I plan with the next revision of the PCBs & mount plates to include the patterning so that they can be switched out without being desoldered.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Glod on Fri, 12 July 2013, 16:59:55
man if i one day am able to grab this keyboard, i should probably get rid of one or two of my 3 ErgoDox lolol
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 12 July 2013, 17:29:02

Out of curiousity, what types of switches would everyone be looking for? I've got a quote request out to a few places for pretty much all the common colors, but it would be helpful to have a bit more of a solid idea.

Capacitive BS.

Realistically, clears or greens.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 12 July 2013, 17:31:34
How is it helping with your wrist pain issue?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 12 July 2013, 17:50:53
How is it helping with your wrist pain issue?
I can't comment on that yet as I don't yet have my boards in hand to test with, however they do sit on either side of my keyboard right now. Typically when I take a break from typing and rest my hands on them, there is definitely a noticeable reduction in the strain. I'm very much looking forward to making them my daily driver :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 12 July 2013, 19:01:56
How is it helping with your wrist pain issue?
I can't comment on that yet as I don't yet have my boards in hand to test with, however they do sit on either side of my keyboard right now. Typically when I take a break from typing and rest my hands on them, there is definitely a noticeable reduction in the strain. I'm very much looking forward to making them my daily driver :D

That's good to hear. I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out of this! Hopefully, an amazing keyboard.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: xman on Fri, 12 July 2013, 19:31:16

Is full NKRO over PS2 just a possibility?
Or has it actually been functionally tested?

What I'm asking is if you know if the KB controller
that you have in mind has a history of actually being
capable of doing full NKRO over PS2.

Having that capability, plus using Soarer's converter,
will result in full NKRO over USB.
And that will be 100% working on everything, including Macs.

The library I'm working from is set up for it, and I know the controller can handle it, but at this point I don't have my boards yet on hand to test it for myself, but I plan to make it happen one way or the other. Would you mind linking me to Soarer's converter?

Great answer!  Thanks!

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=17458.msg335414#msg335414
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: xman on Fri, 12 July 2013, 21:55:00
Out of curiousity, what types of switches would everyone be looking for? I've got a quote request out to a few places for pretty much all the common colors, but it would be helpful to have a bit more of a solid idea.

Short answer:  I'd order Cherry MX Red switches.

Long answer:
The most important mandatory thing for me about switches
is that I have to be able to open them up, take off the covers,
so that I can change/modify the stems and springs.

Since you are dealing with hand and wrist pain,
you may have looked into low-force switch activation, so
you may already know about Tim Tyler's stem & spring surgery
on Cherry MX switches, where he achieved an activation force
of 20 grams. I duplicated the 20 grams, and so can anyone.
Pcb-mounting is best if you want to do that easily.

If you cut down Korean 45g springs, you can
get an activation force of 15 grams.  I've done it.
That is helpful for hand & wrist pain.

If you cut down Korean 35g springs
(I can't find them anywhere) I'd bet money that
you will be able to get an activation force of 10 grams.
That will be even better for hand and wrist pain.

When going for low activation force, the linear
Black or Red stems work best.  Since Reds have
springs with lower activation force than Blacks,
I'd order Reds.

But it's not a deal breaker, because
changing stems & springs is easy with pcb-mounting.

Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 12 July 2013, 23:05:42
Great answer!  Thanks!

Thanks for the link, If he's using the Teensy as a converter, theres no reason I couldn't do the same thing considering the ATMEGA32u4 I'm using for the controller is the same at the heart of the Teensy. I'll have to look into this :)

Short answer:  I'd order Cherry MX Red switches.

Long answer:
The most important mandatory thing for me about switches
is that I have to be able to open them up, take off the covers,
so that I can change/modify the stems and springs.

Since you are dealing with hand and wrist pain,
you may have looked into low-force switch activation, so
you may already know about Tim Tyler's stem & spring surgery
on Cherry MX switches, where he achieved an activation force
of 20 grams. I duplicated the 20 grams, and so can anyone.
Pcb-mounting is best if you want to do that easily.

If you cut down Korean 45g springs, you can
get an activation force of 15 grams.  I've done it.
That is helpful for hand & wrist pain.

If you cut down Korean 35g springs
(I can't find them anywhere) I'd bet money that
you will be able to get an activation force of 10 grams.
That will be even better for hand and wrist pain.

When going for low activation force, the linear
Black or Red stems work best.  Since Reds have
springs with lower activation force than Blacks,
I'd order Reds.

But it's not a deal breaker, because
changing stems & springs is easy with pcb-mounting.
That sir, is an absolutely fantastic answer! I'll definitely up the numbers for the reds I'm looking for in the quotes I've put out. If the numbers are right for the kickstarter campaign, it may be entirely possible to do a completely custom solution, either through cherry directly or modifying the switches ordered.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Sat, 13 July 2013, 00:20:35
Unfortunately it doesn't look like Soarer's firmware is open source, however Hasu's released his code that while it technically isn't NKRO (120+8 modifiers), for all intents and purposes it is, so I'll look to get something like that integrated for the USB side.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=14618.0
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Sat, 13 July 2013, 07:48:50
PCB mounting is wholly unnecessary for any use case. A properly designed plate will allow the switch to be opened, even while mounted.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Sat, 13 July 2013, 10:19:10
PCB mounting is wholly unnecessary for any use case. A properly designed plate will allow the switch to be opened, even while mounted.

That's the plan. The PCBs & plates will be designed so that no modifications will be required to switches, regardless of whether they're PCB or plate mount.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Sat, 13 July 2013, 10:46:27
Sounds good, I notice you implied that both pcb and plate will be possible, will there be an option to have a second acrylic spacer in place of a plate for those who just like the feel of pcb mount?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Sat, 13 July 2013, 10:48:41
I don't see why not, because this clear version uses a pair of 1.5mm sheets one for a plate, the other for a spacer, it's already been designed, so inclusion or as an available option is quite trivial.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Sat, 13 July 2013, 13:03:23
I don't see why not, because this clear version uses a pair of 1.5mm sheets one for a plate, the other for a spacer, it's already been designed, so inclusion or as an available option is quite trivial.

You have to be careful with lots of options on kickstarter. I know some who have realized huge costs for any additional item as it becomes a nightmare to fulfill. I've heard fulfillment companies charge so much more after you get more than like 10 items
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Sat, 13 July 2013, 13:17:53
I'm not looking to offer it as part of the kickstarter, but as a spare part that'll be available through a webstore, along with a number of other things.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Thimplum on Sat, 13 July 2013, 15:13:35
I don't see why not, because this clear version uses a pair of 1.5mm sheets one for a plate, the other for a spacer, it's already been designed, so inclusion or as an available option is quite trivial.

You have to be careful with lots of options on kickstarter. I know some who have realized huge costs for any additional item as it becomes a nightmare to fulfill. I've heard fulfillment companies charge so much more after you get more than like 10 items

I agree. Don't fall for the engineers curse. Don't make a lot of versions. No product is perfect. If people want this option or that option so bad, they can mod it themselves.

I'm not you're boss, but I say that you take the current design, make some prototypes, and iron out the flaws. I would LOVE to see this as product, but I don't want you to feel like you need to do a zillion(10^23) things or people will be mad. They won't. They will love you for you're work.

"If you try to please everypony, you oftentimes end up pleasing nopony, especially yourself." -Twilight Sparkle
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Sat, 13 July 2013, 15:35:11
I absolutely agree. I've already outlined what I have planned for the first revision, and Im not going to deviate from it unless it becomes an impossible task/feature.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: linziyi on Sat, 13 July 2013, 15:35:20
I don't see why not, because this clear version uses a pair of 1.5mm sheets one for a plate, the other for a spacer, it's already been designed, so inclusion or as an available option is quite trivial.

You have to be careful with lots of options on kickstarter. I know some who have realized huge costs for any additional item as it becomes a nightmare to fulfill. I've heard fulfillment companies charge so much more after you get more than like 10 items

I agree. Don't fall for the engineers curse. Don't make a lot of versions. No product is perfect. If people want this option or that option so bad, they can mod it themselves.

I'm not you're boss, but I say that you take the current design, make some prototypes, and iron out the flaws. I would LOVE to see this as product, but I don't want you to feel like you need to do a zillion(10^23) things or people will be mad. They won't. They will love you for you're work.

"If you try to please everypony, you oftentimes end up pleasing nopony, especially yourself." -Twilight Sparkle

That's the beauty of a CUSTOM keyboard, you can do whatever you like with the component  :))
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Thimplum on Sat, 13 July 2013, 15:37:36
I absolutely agree. I've already outlined what I have planned for the first revision, and Im not going to deviate from it unless it becomes an impossible task/feature.

I apologize if I came across as harsh.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Sat, 13 July 2013, 16:09:03
I apologize if I came across as harsh.

Not at all :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Thimplum on Sat, 13 July 2013, 16:18:05
How much longer do you think it will take for your PCBs to arrive?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Sat, 13 July 2013, 16:21:12
Fingers crossed for sometime this week, the earlier the better.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Thimplum on Sat, 13 July 2013, 16:27:46
I'll cross mine too.
:fingers-crossed:
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: xman on Sat, 13 July 2013, 18:45:17
Hi AcidFire,

In my mind's eye I'm visualizing possible layouts for your keyboard...
while I'm thinking about some of the ways I use any keyboard...

Specifically thinking about the keying actions required when F1-F12 are on a layer...
because there are programs/shortcuts that use of F1-F12 directly and
also in combination with modifiers,
and that also use the number row with modifiers, such as...
ctrl-F11, alt-F2, shift-F4, ctrl-1 ctrl-10, alt-2, that kind of thing.

If F1-F12 is assigned to a layer that uses the number row of keys...
then when F1-F12 needs to be used in combination with modifiers...
and when the number row characters keys with modifiers are also needed...
it seems like it is going to be more keystrokes/complicated/cumbersome,
and much less efficient than just having the F1-F12 row of keys.

Maybe I'm also remembering posts from some people
 who are using layouts without F1-F12
(like the Poker, Pure, ErgoDox, and others)
who may have indicated that they miss those keys.

Is there any possibility of adding 1 additional top row of keys for F1-F12?

Thanks for considering, and for everything you've done!
xman

Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Thimplum on Sat, 13 July 2013, 19:34:05
Hi AcidFire,

In my mind's eye I'm visualizing possible layouts for your keyboard...
while I'm thinking about some of the ways I use any keyboard...

Specifically thinking about the keying actions required when F1-F12 are on a layer...
because there are programs/shortcuts that use of F1-F12 directly and
also in combination with modifiers,
and that also use the number row with modifiers, such as...
ctrl-F11, alt-F2, shift-F4, ctrl-1 ctrl-10, alt-2, that kind of thing.

If F1-F12 is assigned to a layer that uses the number row of keys...
then when F1-F12 needs to be used in combination with modifiers...
and when the number row characters keys with modifiers are also needed...
it seems like it is going to be more keystrokes/complicated/cumbersome,
and much less efficient than just having the F1-F12 row of keys.

Maybe I'm also remembering posts from some people
 who are using layouts without F1-F12
(like the Poker, Pure, ErgoDox, and others)
who may have indicated that they miss those keys.

Is there any possibility of adding 1 additional top row of keys for F1-F12?

Thanks for considering, and for everything you've done!
xman

I think that it would be more efficient to make a layer that is the same as the other/default one, and just make the top row of keys be the F1-F12 keys.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Sat, 13 July 2013, 19:38:47
I assign one of my thumb keys to fn on my edox and can easily reach the function keys, even with mods on top of that. Much easier than on poker/pure. Wouldn't mind having extra keys though so I'm pretty much indifferent.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Thimplum on Sat, 13 July 2013, 19:58:21
Yip. If there were more keys, I wouldn't use them for F keys.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: xman on Sat, 13 July 2013, 20:12:27
Hi AcidFire,

In my mind's eye I'm visualizing possible layouts for your keyboard...
while I'm thinking about some of the ways I use any keyboard...

Specifically thinking about the keying actions required when F1-F12 are on a layer...
because there are programs/shortcuts that use of F1-F12 directly and
also in combination with modifiers,
and that also use the number row with modifiers, such as...
ctrl-F11, alt-F2, shift-F4, ctrl-1 ctrl-10, alt-2, that kind of thing.

If F1-F12 is assigned to a layer that uses the number row of keys...
then when F1-F12 needs to be used in combination with modifiers...
and when the number row characters keys with modifiers are also needed...
it seems like it is going to be more keystrokes/complicated/cumbersome,
and much less efficient than just having the F1-F12 row of keys.

Maybe I'm also remembering posts from some people
 who are using layouts without F1-F12
(like the Poker, Pure, ErgoDox, and others)
who may have indicated that they miss those keys.

Is there any possibility of adding 1 additional top row of keys for F1-F12?

Thanks for considering, and for everything you've done!
xman

I think that it would be more efficient to make a layer that is the same as the other/default one, and just make the top row of keys be the F1-F12 keys.

Then you would still have the same situation, except now not for F1-F12,
but now for the number row keys...
so you still need to use FN + modifiers + whatever...
Still cumbersome.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Sat, 13 July 2013, 21:49:55
I've had similar feedback from others, and one idea that comes to mind is to do a row of keys like the kinesis boards, sitting 90 degrees with 6-7 switches, mechanical of course.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: xman on Sun, 14 July 2013, 00:00:10
I've had similar feedback from others, and one idea that comes to mind is to do a row of keys like the kinesis boards, sitting 90 degrees with 6-7 switches, mechanical of course.

On the Kinesis web site they now show the
Contoured, Maxim, and Freestyle,
but I know there are other models.
Which one of the Kinesis boards
comes closest to what you mean?

What I'm guessing what you mean is the Contoured,
but with the top row moved to the side,
to the outer edge nearest the little fingers.
but I could be wrong.

If that's what you mean, I like it.
Is that what you mean?

Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Sun, 14 July 2013, 00:08:44
I was thinking more along the top row, like the contoured, however it's entirely possible to mount it to the side as well with how I have it mapped out in my head. I'll mark it down to try both with the next revision of the housing, it's a fairly simple change to make it modular. It's definitely something I need to decide whether I want to include it with the first revision of the hardware that'll be available for purchase.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: xman on Sun, 14 July 2013, 00:31:28
I was thinking more along the top row, like the contoured, however it's entirely possible to mount it to the side as well with how I have it mapped out in my head. I'll mark it down to try both with the next revision of the housing, it's a fairly simple change to make it modular. It's definitely something I need to decide whether I want to include it with the first revision of the hardware that'll be available for purchase.

The top row would have the narrower footprint advantage.
Plus it is where people would expect to see the F1-F12 keys.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 15 July 2013, 14:10:07
I've marked it down for a second revision of the case/hardware as I can see their use as either function keys or additional macro keys, but for now I'm going to focus on my original outline, lest my project sneak away from me.

In the meantime, I've nearly finished the libraries & serial commands for controlling the LEDs, as well as reading the key array. Next up will be mapping & layer storage/recall :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: linziyi on Mon, 15 July 2013, 14:28:18
Are you planning to make the connection between the two halves of the keyboard wireless also?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Thimplum on Mon, 15 July 2013, 14:49:25
I think that might drive up the cost by quite a bit.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 15 July 2013, 15:04:15
I'm looking into it, the biggest thing is that the radios that give you the ability to select the device your connected to on the fly are a bit more expensive. Personally, with this type of set up if it's going to be wireless, I want it to be completely wireless, so that's what I'll be shooting for first.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 16 July 2013, 12:13:22
Warning! Off topic:

It's good to see that there's another How to Train your dragon fan here!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 16 July 2013, 12:38:45
Warning! Off topic:

It's good to see that there's another How to Train your dragon fan here!

Hell yes, how can you not love Toothless ;) On a more on topic note, I've nearly finished the next revisions of my boards which should be pretty close to what the production PCBs will be. I'm waiting to test with my prototypes first to see if there's anything I've missed, sizes & spacing, etc etc. I've also updated my design files as well for the case, and I'm proud to say that the entire thing will support the hotswapping of CherryMX switches :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: oTurtlez on Tue, 16 July 2013, 13:01:36
Warning! Off topic:

It's good to see that there's another How to Train your dragon fan here!

Hell yes, how can you not love Toothless ;) On a more on topic note, I've nearly finished the next revisions of my boards which should be pretty close to what the production PCBs will be. I'm waiting to test with my prototypes first to see if there's anything I've missed, sizes & spacing, etc etc. I've also updated my design files as well for the case, and I'm proud to say that the entire thing will support the hotswapping of CherryMX switches :D

Hotswapping switches? Do go on....

EDIT: Unless of course you mean removal of tops w/o desoldering, in which case, sweet!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 16 July 2013, 13:18:57
Warning! Off topic:

It's good to see that there's another How to Train your dragon fan here!

Hell yes, how can you not love Toothless ;) On a more on topic note, I've nearly finished the next revisions of my boards which should be pretty close to what the production PCBs will be. I'm waiting to test with my prototypes first to see if there's anything I've missed, sizes & spacing, etc etc. I've also updated my design files as well for the case, and I'm proud to say that the entire thing will support the hotswapping of CherryMX switches :D

Hotswapping switches? Do go on....

EDIT: Unless of course you mean removal of tops w/o desoldering, in which case, sweet!

^^

Yeah, which do you mean?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Tue, 16 July 2013, 13:23:56
Warning! Off topic:

It's good to see that there's another How to Train your dragon fan here!

Hell yes, how can you not love Toothless ;) On a more on topic note, I've nearly finished the next revisions of my boards which should be pretty close to what the production PCBs will be. I'm waiting to test with my prototypes first to see if there's anything I've missed, sizes & spacing, etc etc. I've also updated my design files as well for the case, and I'm proud to say that the entire thing will support the hotswapping of CherryMX switches :D

If hotswapping isn't just top removal and you've figured out snap in solderless switches then you are the next keyboard god. If not, well you're still a demigod or something.

And "how can you not love toothless" is a silly question, it is not possible. Toothless is simply too lovable.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 16 July 2013, 13:26:33
Warning! Off topic:

It's good to see that there's another How to Train your dragon fan here!

Hell yes, how can you not love Toothless ;) On a more on topic note, I've nearly finished the next revisions of my boards which should be pretty close to what the production PCBs will be. I'm waiting to test with my prototypes first to see if there's anything I've missed, sizes & spacing, etc etc. I've also updated my design files as well for the case, and I'm proud to say that the entire thing will support the hotswapping of CherryMX switches :D

If hotswapping isn't just top removal and you've figured out snap in solderless switches then you are the next keyboard god. If not, well you're still a demigod or something.

And "how can you not love toothless" is a silly question, it is not possible. Toothless is simply too lovable.

I agree. I think that he means top removal. If it is true hotswapping, then he shall outshine Ripster as the #1 Keyboard Expert on the Planet.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 16 July 2013, 13:29:01
Ughh! I can"t refresh the page fast enough!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 16 July 2013, 13:33:11
Sorry, should have been more clear, yes, I meant that the tops will be swappable. While I have some ideas in mind for swapping the entire switch... those will come later ;) Baby steps after all.

(and by ideas, I mean I have a design for something, need to look into getting it manufactured for testing...)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Tue, 16 July 2013, 13:35:29
You sir are on the path to eternal glory.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 16 July 2013, 13:38:07
Sorry, should have been more clear, yes, I meant that the tops will be swappable. While I have some ideas in mind for swapping the entire switch... those will come later ;) Baby steps after all.

That's still great! Easy modding :cool:
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 16 July 2013, 13:39:03
Sorry, should have been more clear, yes, I meant that the tops will be swappable. While I have some ideas in mind for swapping the entire switch... those will come later ;) Baby steps after all.

(and by ideas, I mean I have a design for something, need to look into getting it manufactured for testing...)

Tell us more!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 16 July 2013, 15:27:26
I can't give it all away yet! right now it's all living in my head, I'll have to sketch it out first and pass it along to someone who can render it out properly for me. Right now the way I have it in my head, it would only work with plate mount, as you'd need something to stabilize/lock it in.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: oTurtlez on Tue, 16 July 2013, 15:33:10
I can't give it all away yet! right now it's all living in my head, I'll have to sketch it out first and pass it along to someone who can render it out properly for me. Right now the way I have it in my head, it would only work with plate mount, as you'd need something to stabilize/lock it in.

Why not make the PCB accept pin inputs as the connection for the switch, like the controller on Filco's and such whereas it just pushes in, why not do something along the lines of that? Sure it'll make the profile of the entire board a bit larger, but it'd be sweet to just pop a switch off and throw another one on.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 16 July 2013, 16:05:21
I can't give it all away yet! right now it's all living in my head, I'll have to sketch it out first and pass it along to someone who can render it out properly for me. Right now the way I have it in my head, it would only work with plate mount, as you'd need something to stabilize/lock it in.

Why not make the PCB accept pin inputs as the connection for the switch, like the controller on Filco's and such whereas it just pushes in, why not do something along the lines of that? Sure it'll make the profile of the entire board a bit larger, but it'd be sweet to just pop a switch off and throw another one on.

That's pretty much what I had in mind, only the design floating around in my head shouldn't increase the board thickness anymore than what the pins currently stick out for. Once I've got my first batch up on kickstarter I plan to put more time into this.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Tue, 16 July 2013, 21:02:44
Liking the idea.

BTW, another big HTTYD fan here :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 18 July 2013, 03:28:38
So while I check the tracking on my PCBs every 5 minutes, the samples from SP came in, and I got a couple of caps into the laser for testing:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14256.jpg)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14262.jpg)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14254.jpg)
After playing with my improvised rig, I'm definitely wanting to be able to do independent control of each side of the set up:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/backlit-sample.jpg)

Next I'm gonna order some of the frosted keys from SP and see if I can do the vinyl dye at home w/ the same results. I also think I may have found a more affordable solution for the RGB LEDs, so there may be a surprise or two in the future ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Thu, 18 July 2013, 06:36:15
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/backlit-sample.jpg)


These from the actual prototype or PS?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 18 July 2013, 09:42:30
These are from the actual key, with the color tweaked a bit since the photos were slightly washed out when I took them. But those are (with maybe a slight exception to the red) color accurate to the LEDs.

Also, a bit more details from the key caps:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14273.jpg)
The one on the left was my second attempt with aligning to the center of the key. On the right was my first attempt, as well as my first (the circles) and second attempt (the patterning) at lasering the sides with a rig I designed to do it.
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14281.jpg)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14277.jpg)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Thu, 18 July 2013, 10:06:09
Nice! You should make a Toothless keycap.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Thu, 18 July 2013, 10:15:57
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/backlit-sample.jpg)


Those look amazing. If this can be done with dyesub pbt (well, pbt/poly blend for the frosteds) then that would be even more amazing, mostly because it wouldn't just degrade with use like the laser ones will.

I wonder what a totally blank (or just non letter patterned) frosted would look like with that setup, seeing as that's what I would want to install personally.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 18 July 2013, 13:41:13
Nice! You should make a Toothless keycap.

Get out of my head.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Thu, 18 July 2013, 15:33:23
Nice! You should make a Toothless keycap.

Get out of my head.

NIGHT FURY! GET DOWN!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 18 July 2013, 16:01:22
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/backlit-sample.jpg)


Those look amazing. If this can be done with dyesub pbt (well, pbt/poly blend for the frosteds) then that would be even more amazing, mostly because it wouldn't just degrade with use like the laser ones will.

I wonder what a totally blank (or just non letter patterned) frosted would look like with that setup, seeing as that's what I would want to install personally.

Do you mean etched, or just 4 controllable RGB LEDs?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Thu, 18 July 2013, 16:04:27
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/backlit-sample.jpg)


Those look amazing. If this can be done with dyesub pbt (well, pbt/poly blend for the frosteds) then that would be even more amazing, mostly because it wouldn't just degrade with use like the laser ones will.

I wonder what a totally blank (or just non letter patterned) frosted would look like with that setup, seeing as that's what I would want to install personally.

Do you mean etched, or just 4 controllable RGB LEDs?

I just mean a blank frosted or frosted with like that hexagon pattern dyesubed over the whole cap in the 4 rgb led assembly.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 18 July 2013, 16:15:47
It's entirely possible, biggest issue right now is alignment between the sides but I have some plans to handle that, mostly with a jig w/ tighter tolerances.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Merloobi on Fri, 19 July 2013, 07:59:13
Wow what an incredible project. I'm extremely interested in buying one of these if/once you begin selling  ;D
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 19 July 2013, 12:50:24
Wow what an incredible project. I'm extremely interested in buying one of these if/once you begin selling  ;D

Awesome, glad to hear it :)

On a side note, I'm putting a website together for this and I'll be posting a survey & first round beta sign up later today or tomorrow. There are a couple of you who I've already marked for first round if you decide to sign up :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Fri, 19 July 2013, 13:09:14
I'm definitely a go
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 19 July 2013, 18:46:42
Ok, I still need to finish the survey, but for those of you looking to apply for the first round of beta, you can do so here:
ErgoGP Beta v1.0 Application (http://multiplxd.com/ergogp/beta).

I'm currently looking for 10-20 people to participate in the beta on the first round.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: linziyi on Fri, 19 July 2013, 18:50:03
Ok, I still need to finish the survey, but for those of you looking to apply for the first round of beta, you can do so here:
ErgoGP Beta v1.0 Application (http://"http://multiplxd.com/ergogp/beta").

I'm currently looking for 10-20 people to participate in the beta on the first round.

Link broken :S need a little fix :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 19 July 2013, 18:51:43
bah, fixed it. I blame friday :P
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 19 July 2013, 19:10:01
bah, fixed it. I blame friday :P

It's still broken...
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 19 July 2013, 19:10:53
http://www.multiplxd.com/ergogp/beta

I think that this is what he means.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 19 July 2013, 19:24:59
http://www.multiplxd.com/ergogp/beta

I think that this is what he means.

Ok, it's officially time to go home. yes thats the right one, I also fixed my own link.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 19 July 2013, 19:40:33
I should go home or you? I'm confused.

BTW, great looking site.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 19 July 2013, 19:46:59
I should go home or you? I'm confused.

BTW, great looking site.

I should, it's obviously been a long week >_<
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 19 July 2013, 19:52:29
I should go home or you? I'm confused.

BTW, great looking site.

I should, it's obviously been a long week >_<

By the way, what exactly does "at cost" mean? If I signed up, how much would I be paying?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 19 July 2013, 19:58:07
that you'd be paying whatever it costs me to produce production units if I get that far. You aren't paying anything to participate in the beta.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: xman on Fri, 19 July 2013, 21:39:28
Would it be possible to give a very rough ballpark
estimate as to the cost of a production unit?
You will not be held to it.

Also... a very rough time frame as to how soon
a production unit can maybe possibly
be in a beta tester's hands?
You will not be held to it.

Just very rough estimates.
Thanks!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Fri, 19 July 2013, 21:48:49
Would it be possible to give a very rough ballpark
estimate as to the cost of a production unit?
You will not be held to it.

Also... a very rough time frame as to how soon
a production unit can maybe possibly
be in a beta tester's hands?
You will not be held to it.

Just very rough estimates.
Thanks!

I'm currently looking at:
Case+Electronics = $120.00
Case+Electronics+Switches -or- Caps = $160.00
Case+Electronics+Switches+Caps = $200.00
Completely Assembled+Tested = $250.00

Depending on what kind of funding I get, I'm also looking to offer injection molded & anodized aluminum cases.


And a chance of being lower due to buying at cost.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Glod on Fri, 19 July 2013, 23:02:35
Of course i filled out that beta signup form............lol

I am sorry i can't help with firmware/software but hopefully you would take someone that uses a keyboard 12-14 hours a day into consideration. just saying....
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 19 July 2013, 23:16:33
Of course i filled out that beta signup form............lol

I am sorry i can't help with firmware/software but hopefully you would take someone that uses a keyboard 12-14 hours a day into consideration. just saying....

Absolutely! At the end of the day I'm looking for better comfort and support for those of us who spend way too much time on a keyboard.

On a side note, did you hit submit after you filled it in? Your application hasn't shown up.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Glod on Fri, 19 July 2013, 23:27:47
yeah i hit submit for sure, hmmmm
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Larken on Sat, 20 July 2013, 00:32:36
submitted. definitely interested in how this works out in typical usage.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Sat, 20 July 2013, 10:19:26
Of course i filled out that beta signup form............lol

I am sorry i can't help with firmware/software but hopefully you would take someone that uses a keyboard 12-14 hours a day into consideration. just saying....

Absolutely! At the end of the day I'm looking for better comfort and support for those of us who spend way too much time on a keyboard.

On a side note, did you hit submit after you filled it in? Your application hasn't shown up.

I submitted... has mine shown up yet?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: linziyi on Sat, 20 July 2013, 10:23:50
 :) I think I am the first one, had mine show up?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Glod on Sat, 20 July 2013, 11:16:30
Of course i filled out that beta signup form............lol

I am sorry i can't help with firmware/software but hopefully you would take someone that uses a keyboard 12-14 hours a day into consideration. just saying....

Absolutely! At the end of the day I'm looking for better comfort and support for those of us who spend way too much time on a keyboard.

On a side note, did you hit submit after you filled it in? Your application hasn't shown up.

i refilled out the form, hopefully you got it this time

Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Kozu on Sat, 20 July 2013, 11:31:24
I also filled out the form yesterday. Hope it went through.

I'm a software engineer, so yeah. So keyboards are essentially my money maker.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Sat, 20 July 2013, 12:45:23
Nice! You should make a Toothless keycap.

Terrible keycap design is terrible. I made this in about 30 seconds:
(http://i.imgur.com/9A6HHwd.png)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Sat, 20 July 2013, 13:06:08
I also filled out the form yesterday. Hope it went through.

I'm a software engineer, so yeah. So keyboards are essentially my money maker.
i refilled out the form, hopefully you got it this time
:) I think I am the first one, had mine show up?
Yup, everyone's made it through now.

Nice! You should make a Toothless keycap.

Terrible keycap design is terrible. I made this in about 30 seconds:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/9A6HHwd.png)


You sir owe me a new keyboard & LCD cleaning supplies lol
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Sat, 20 July 2013, 13:10:52
You sir owe me a new keyboard & LCD cleaning supplies lol

Moral of the story: Don't drink anything while looking at my um... "artwork."
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Sat, 20 July 2013, 13:11:13
Acidfire,

Can u tell me if my application went through? I'm in a place with horrible Internet for several days and the form was acting funny?

Thanks!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Sat, 20 July 2013, 13:18:39
Acidfire,

Can u tell me if my application went through? I'm in a place with horrible Internet for several days and the form was acting funny?

Thanks!
I've only got one application without a username and that was a day or two ago, so you may need to try again.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Sat, 20 July 2013, 14:51:28
Acidfire,

Can u tell me if my application went through? I'm in a place with horrible Internet for several days and the form was acting funny?

Thanks!
I've only got one application without a username and that was a day or two ago, so you may need to try again.

Hmm, maybe the form doesn't work on an iphone. I just tried again and when I agree and click complete it loads a screen where you can tell something is missing and the three text links, update, something and beta signup. Will try when I get to the real world.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Sat, 20 July 2013, 15:17:40
Ok now he's just scary.

(http://i.imgur.com/j7rkAxw.jpg)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MattDarling on Sat, 20 July 2013, 17:10:06
I've been lurking and watching this thread since last week, and just submitted my beta application. I was sold on the idea of making the thumb clusters more comfortable to use (I had to stop using my Kinesis Advantage because of that), but then you posted the thing with the laptop (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg957781#msg957781), and I was sold twice over.

Anyway, it's awesome to see another ergonomic keyboard project starting in Canada - now I won't have to pay an arm and a leg for shipping, lol. Regardless of whether I get a prototype model or a Kickstarter unit :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Sat, 20 July 2013, 18:08:52
I've been lurking and watching this thread since last week, and just submitted my beta application. I was sold on the idea of making the thumb clusters more comfortable to use (I had to stop using my Kinesis Advantage because of that), but then you posted the thing with the laptop (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg957781#msg957781), and I was sold twice over.

Anyway, it's awesome to see another ergonomic keyboard project starting in Canada - now I won't have to pay an arm and a leg for shipping, lol. Regardless of whether I get a prototype model or a Kickstarter unit :)

Canada FTW! Where in canada are you? NVM, its on your application -derp-
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Sun, 21 July 2013, 10:53:12
Acidfire,

Can u tell me if my application went through? I'm in a place with horrible Internet for several days and the form was acting funny?

Thanks!
I've only got one application without a username and that was a day or two ago, so you may need to try again.

Should we get a confirmation email? I just tired it from a computer and it seemed to work but no email. Thanks!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MattDarling on Sun, 21 July 2013, 19:14:18
Canada FTW! Where in canada are you? NVM, its on your application -derp-

Haha, yeah - at least I know you got the application :D I'm amazed at how quickly this is moving forward. Perhaps those lean startup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean_Startup) folks were right after all...

Should we get a confirmation email? I just tired it from a computer and it seemed to work but no email. Thanks!

I didn't get a confirmation for mine, either, fwiw :) And, apparently, mine did go through.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Sun, 21 July 2013, 21:11:15
Sorry, yes blue yours made it in, and thats a good point, I'll have to add in a confirmation email for extra clarity.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 22 July 2013, 11:04:07
Haha, yeah - at least I know you got the application :D I'm amazed at how quickly this is moving forward. Perhaps those lean startup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean_Startup) folks were right after all...

I've never heard of this concept before, but I like it. Definitely along the same track I'm working on, it's cool that theres a name for it.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 22 July 2013, 12:20:13
Ok, a suggestion was made to me at work that I'd like to hear opinions about. Right now, this beta test is looking to cost me a fair bit of money to get the first units produced. I'm happy to shell out the cash because I think it's vital to the development to get user experience and see what needs to be changed, if anything. However, this will stretch my own finances a bit when I should be paying bills. Some of you have already offered to preorder the kits to help support the development, something that was extremely gratifying, but I didn't feel comfortable taking anyone's money until I had made it a bit farther. I've said in the beta applications that the boards would need to be returned at some point, mainly due to the cost for me, however I would like to do at this point is offer a compromise.

What I'd like to do is put up a small indiegogo campaign to cover the cost of production for 20 beta kits. These kits will be offered with & without switches, and each kit would come with frosted keycaps for the backlighting. Basically, I'm looking at roughly $100 without switches, and $150 w/ blue, clear or black switches. This means that the prototype is yours to keep, and you'll still be able to buy a kickstarter/retail kit @ cost when they become available. I'm also looking at offering 20-30 sets of the clear frosted keys (in DSA) as well for $40 to help with funding as well. Would anyone be interested in this option?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: tgujay on Mon, 22 July 2013, 12:28:14
Ok, a suggestion was made to me at work that I'd like to hear opinions about. Right now, this beta test is looking to cost me a fair bit of money to get the first units produced. I'm happy to shell out the cash because I think it's vital to the development to get user experience and see what needs to be changed, if anything. However, this will stretch my own finances a bit when I should be paying bills. Some of you have already offered to preorder the kits to help support the development, something that was extremely gratifying, but I didn't feel comfortable taking anyone's money until I had made it a bit farther. I've said in the beta applications that the boards would need to be returned at some point, mainly due to the cost for me, however I would like to do at this point is offer a compromise.

What I'd like to do is put up a small indiegogo campaign to cover the cost of production for 20 beta kits. These kits will be offered with & without switches, and each kit would come with frosted keycaps for the backlighting. Basically, I'm looking at roughly $100 without switches, and $150 w/ blue, clear or black switches. This means that the prototype is yours to keep, and you'll still be able to buy a kickstarter/retail kit @ cost when they become available. I'm also looking at offering 20-30 sets of the clear frosted keys (in DSA) as well for $40 to help with funding as well. Would anyone be interested in this option?

Sorry if it's posted elsewhere in the thread but what all is there required for assembly of the kit?  Diodes, resistors, switches?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Mon, 22 July 2013, 12:32:34
I think that is an excellent idea. As someone who is not getting a beta (Exhausted all money on Ergodox), I obviously don't really get a say, but if I were signing up, I would certainly be OK with this idea.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 22 July 2013, 12:36:41
Sorry if it's posted elsewhere in the thread but what all is there required for assembly of the kit?  Diodes, resistors, switches?
Case assembly & switches, everything else is surface mount or will be presoldered for you to aid in the simplicity of putting it together.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: tgujay on Mon, 22 July 2013, 12:38:32
Sorry if it's posted elsewhere in the thread but what all is there required for assembly of the kit?  Diodes, resistors, switches?
Case assembly & switches, everything else is surface mount or will be presoldered for you to aid in the simplicity of putting it together.

For $100?  Are you trying to go broke?  Haha depending on when you want to start the beta I am VERY interested.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 22 July 2013, 12:42:10
For $100?  Are you trying to go broke?  Haha depending on when you want to start the beta I am VERY interested.

Remember that this is for the unit @ cost for a beta, I'm not looking to make any money at this point, just fund the development so I can still afford to eat. The actual retail kit will price higher so that I'm not just giving them away lol. Timing wise, I'll probably start it at the beginning of August for 2-4 weeks depending on the response.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Larken on Mon, 22 July 2013, 12:53:06
Ok, a suggestion was made to me at work that I'd like to hear opinions about. Right now, this beta test is looking to cost me a fair bit of money to get the first units produced. I'm happy to shell out the cash because I think it's vital to the development to get user experience and see what needs to be changed, if anything. However, this will stretch my own finances a bit when I should be paying bills. Some of you have already offered to preorder the kits to help support the development, something that was extremely gratifying, but I didn't feel comfortable taking anyone's money until I had made it a bit farther. I've said in the beta applications that the boards would need to be returned at some point, mainly due to the cost for me, however I would like to do at this point is offer a compromise.

What I'd like to do is put up a small indiegogo campaign to cover the cost of production for 20 beta kits. These kits will be offered with & without switches, and each kit would come with frosted keycaps for the backlighting. Basically, I'm looking at roughly $100 without switches, and $150 w/ blue, clear or black switches. This means that the prototype is yours to keep, and you'll still be able to buy a kickstarter/retail kit @ cost when they become available. I'm also looking at offering 20-30 sets of the clear frosted keys (in DSA) as well for $40 to help with funding as well. Would anyone be interested in this option?

I would actually prefer to be able to keep the prototype by funding it directly actually - since shipping back and forth isn't particularly convenient in my case (not to mention the shipping is pretty much half the cost of one board). But it all depends on how far along the keyboard is - is it ready in your opinion? how functional would the beta kits be in comparison to the final kits in your vision of the product?

a feature list that's already been tested so far would be reassuring -
ie.
- wireless working?
- battery life/charging methods?
- reprogrammability - how will it be handled? Is there going to be a downloadable application/web interface?

Or for that matter, are there any major features that's still omitted in the current boards?

If the keyboard is at a stage where you find your original feature list satisfied, ie. a completed production model, and simply require end user testing for comments/further modifications, I'd be more than happy to pay for a beta unit and give feedback where relevant, rather than having you come out of pocket to provide the kits and pay for shipping two ways (after all, stuff costs money :D).

Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Mon, 22 July 2013, 13:03:56
Would anyone be interested in this option?

I'd be up for that.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 22 July 2013, 13:04:50
I would actually prefer to be able to keep the prototype by funding it directly actually - since shipping back and forth isn't particularly convenient in my case (not to mention the shipping is pretty much half the cost of one board). But it all depends on how far along the keyboard is - is it ready in your opinion? how functional would the beta kits be in comparison to the final kits in your vision of the product?

a feature list that's already been tested so far would be reassuring -
ie.
- wireless working?
- battery life/charging methods?
- reprogrammability - how will it be handled? Is there going to be a downloadable application/web interface?

Or for that matter, are there any major features that's still omitted in the current boards?

If the keyboard is at a stage where you find your original feature list satisfied, ie. a completed production model, and simply require end user testing for comments/further modifications, I'd be more than happy to pay for a beta unit and give feedback where relevant, rather than having you come out of pocket to provide the kits and pay for shipping two ways (after all, stuff costs money :D).

Right now unless there's a good reason to make a major board revision, the PCBs I have designed right now are what I would consider my production design. Same goes for the case.

As for the firmware, the main controllers will run a bootloader enabling easy updates over USB. I'm also looking at whether I can build the main controller to also act as an ISP for the sub boards since the ATTINY isn't wired to the USB in any form. If for some reason it doesn't work out, I'll be including a usbtinyisp w/ each kit so that testers can update to the latest firmware as it's updated.

For the updating & layout software, I've been working on an app to facilitate making updates easy and for programming layouts, as with the firmware these will be in flux, a big part of that is working it out so that it's cross platform compatible.

In other words, I believe I can nail down just about all the base functionality by the time I have everything ready for the beta kits to go out.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Tarzan on Mon, 22 July 2013, 13:07:04
Would anyone be interested in this option?

I'd be up for that.

Same here.

As an alternate approach; why don't we just give you money to reserve one of the first production units?  I don't mind if I'm not on the list of beta testers, but I'd be willing to send you funds in order to reserve one once they go to production. 
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Larken on Mon, 22 July 2013, 13:10:53

Right now unless there's a good reason to make a major board revision, the PCBs I have designed right now are what I would consider my production design. Same goes for the case.

As for the firmware, the main controllers will run a bootloader enabling easy updates over USB. I'm also looking at whether I can build the main controller to also act as an ISP for the sub boards since the ATTINY isn't wired to the USB in any form. If for some reason it doesn't work out, I'll be including a usbtinyisp w/ each kit so that testers can update to the latest firmware as it's updated.

For the updating & layout software, I've been working on an app to facilitate making updates easy and for programming layouts, as with the firmware these will be in flux, a big part of that is working it out so that it's cross platform compatible.

In other words, I believe I can nail down just about all the base functionality by the time I have everything ready for the beta kits to go out.

sounds more than fair. I'll be down for one if I'm manage to get into the beta :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 22 July 2013, 13:17:37
As an alternate approach; why don't we just give you money to reserve one of the first production units?  I don't mind if I'm not on the list of beta testers, but I'd be willing to send you funds in order to reserve one once they go to production.

Thats pretty much what you'd be doing w/ the indiegogo proto units, because the protos I have designed are pretty much the production run, the only difference will be the firmware. Also, buying a beta unit puts you on the list of testers automatically. The application process for beta was meant to help me reduce the risk with the cash involved with producing prototypes, however by purchasing a prototype unit you've negated that concern, and really you wouldn't even have to provide feedback if you choose not to (though it would be very appreciated).

As for the future expansions, unless the boards require an overhaul for some reason, the prototypes will also be compatible with the bluetooth & other expansions. If it's a matter of it not fitting your case, I will make sure to include a replacement part to make sure that it does :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Mon, 22 July 2013, 13:22:14
The way I see it, unless there is an extreme overhaul (And I mean extreme), you should pretty much be alright with a prototype, because if anything does change, it will be easily replaceable as the design is as such that anyone can mod it easily. Props to AcidFire for such a design.

And I say this based on my experience of building the Ergodox by sourcing all the items myself rather than MassDrop.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Tarzan on Mon, 22 July 2013, 13:22:18
As an alternate approach; why don't we just give you money to reserve one of the first production units?  I don't mind if I'm not on the list of beta testers, but I'd be willing to send you funds in order to reserve one once they go to production.

Thats pretty much what you'd be doing w/ the indiegogo proto units, because the protos I have designed are pretty much the production run, the only difference will be the firmware. Also, buying a beta unit puts you on the list of testers automatically. The application process for beta was meant to help me reduce the risk with the cash involved with producing prototypes, however by purchasing a prototype unit you've negated that concern, and really you wouldn't even have to provide feedback if you choose not to (though it would be very appreciated).

As for the future expansions, unless the boards require an overhaul for some reason, the prototypes will also be compatible with the bluetooth & other expansions. If it's a matter of it not fitting your case, I will make sure to include a replacement part to make sure that it does :)

Sounds like a plan. 

Can I send you a bag of switches to install in my beta?   :p

(Only partly joking about that, actually.  I really like MX White switches, and have set aside some for this keyboard already.) 
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: thadood on Mon, 22 July 2013, 13:32:29
I can get behind a beta of this!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Mon, 22 July 2013, 13:41:15
Definitely in for a prototype and a final unit. Only thing I'm unsure of is what switches to put in the proto, can't be havin two boards with the same switches. Perhaps greens or blacks.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 22 July 2013, 14:09:45
So for the actual campaign, I expect to launch it August first provided my boards show up some time this week. I plan to run it until the 15th, and offer 25 kits to start, along with a few other bits :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Mon, 22 July 2013, 14:19:22
Will it just be first come first serve to get the boards?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 22 July 2013, 14:47:12
Will it just be first come first serve to get the boards?

From what I understand of indiegogo, yes, however I'll make sure that those of you on the boards are set up to get one, regardless of how indiegogo... goes.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Mon, 22 July 2013, 14:59:35
Will it just be first come first serve to get the boards?

From what I understand of indiegogo, yes, however I'll make sure that those of you on the boards are set up to get one, regardless of how indiegogo... goes.

Wouldn't it just be easier to have everypony who is interested send you money directly?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 22 July 2013, 15:17:16
Wouldn't it just be easier to have everypony who is interested send you money directly?

Honestly, using something like Indiegogo gives me a layer of organization that would take time away from development if I were to handle it all myself. However, if someone misses out, I will make sure you still get the opportunity to get a beta.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Mon, 22 July 2013, 15:25:56
Wouldn't it just be easier to have everypony who is interested send you money directly?

Honestly, using something like Indiegogo gives me a layer of organization that would take time away from development if I were to handle it all myself. However, if someone misses out, I will make sure you still get the opportunity to get a beta.

Ok! That's just fine.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Lastpilot on Mon, 22 July 2013, 16:56:10
Just incase my PM gets buried in your inbox, I just want to post it here.

I am also in for a prototype :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: linziyi on Mon, 22 July 2013, 17:38:22
In for a prototype!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Mon, 22 July 2013, 21:37:06
Wouldn't it just be easier to have everypony who is interested send you money directly?

Honestly, using something like Indiegogo gives me a layer of organization that would take time away from development if I were to handle it all myself. However, if someone misses out, I will make sure you still get the opportunity to get a beta.

Ok! That's just fine.

Though... how will you keep the public out? Or does it not matter?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Wildcard on Mon, 22 July 2013, 21:50:45
hmmm.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Mon, 22 July 2013, 21:54:58
hmmm.
Me agrees
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Glod on Mon, 22 July 2013, 23:12:04
Would anyone be interested in this option?

i am interested in this option. I have just set aside money specifically for this project so just let us know what you decide :) I have both pcb-mount and plate mount switches so im good on switches.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Merloobi on Tue, 23 July 2013, 01:54:44
I'm interested in a prototype too! :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: linziyi on Tue, 23 July 2013, 07:12:52
Would you include a bluetooth "receiver" for devices that don't come with one?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Tue, 23 July 2013, 08:46:21
Would you include a bluetooth "receiver" for devices that don't come with one?
You can find one cheap online. Just look up bluetooth dongle on amazon or something. Seriously, you can get a cheap (in both senses of the word) one for under five bucks, or a halfway decent one for around twenty. No need to include it with the keyboard.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 23 July 2013, 09:19:50
Woah woah wait... The protos will come with bluetooth?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 23 July 2013, 09:20:47
I'm in for one.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Tue, 23 July 2013, 10:45:28
Woah woah wait... The protos will come with bluetooth?
I don't think it was ever explicitly stated either way, but it would make a lot of sense for testing. Bluetooth and leds are where I can forsee the most problems arising that could need hardware fixes.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 23 July 2013, 11:16:52
Woah woah wait... The protos will come with bluetooth?
I don't think it was ever explicitly stated either way, but it would make a lot of sense for testing. Bluetooth and leds are where I can forsee the most problems arising that could need hardware fixes.

That is very true. But at that price point, I'd be surprised...
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 23 July 2013, 12:27:37
Unfortunately no, the bluetooth will not be included with these protos as there is a ton of work managing those connections alone, not to mention that the radios I'm looking at using are still fairly expensive in small lot quantities. There's also stuff to worry about charging & battery management as well.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 23 July 2013, 12:32:02
Unfortunately no, the bluetooth will not be included with these protos as there is a ton of work managing those connections alone, not to mention that the radios I'm looking at using are still fairly expensive in small lot quantities. There's also stuff to worry about charging & battery management as well.

That's fine. I don't even have a computer with bluetooth...
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 23 July 2013, 12:40:37
To answer the other question though, when I do make the add-on available, there will be an optional bluetooth dongle for PCs that don't otherwise have it. I'm also designing a base station that would allow both sides to be charged faster as well as include a bluetooth radio for them to connect to.

Also, to elaborate a bit more on the bluetooth complications, to make the boards truely wireless (no cable joining them), each has to have a bluetooth radio. While Windows/OSX/Linux have no problem talking to multiple keyboards, mobile devices aren't as friendly. I know that iOS will only connect with one device type at a time, which means one half of the setup needs to slave to the other and still relay at a reasonable speed.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 23 July 2013, 12:47:59
To answer the other question though, when I do make the add-on available, there will be an optional bluetooth dongle for PCs that don't otherwise have it. I'm also designing a base station that would allow both sides to be charged faster as well as include a bluetooth radio for them to connect to.

Also, to elaborate a bit more on the bluetooth complications, to make the boards truely wireless (no cable joining them), each has to have a bluetooth radio. While Windows/OSX/Linux have no problem talking to multiple keyboards, mobile devices aren't as friendly. I know that iOS will only connect with one device type at a time, which means one half of the setup needs to slave to the other and still relay at a reasonable speed.
I think that it might be a better solution to have just one side use bluetooth, and use something like a pair of RFM22 modules to let the two sides communicate.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 23 July 2013, 13:03:35
Thing is, unless I buy in massive quantities, a pair of RFM22 modules end up costing more than a single bluetooth radio, but that is an option I'm still looking at. I'm also looking at other alternatives for wireless as well, outside of bluetooth, however they wouldn't be as universal, especially with mobile devices.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Tarzan on Tue, 23 July 2013, 13:20:34
Thing is, unless I buy in massive quantities, a pair of RFM22 modules end up costing more than a single bluetooth radio, but that is an option I'm still looking at. I'm also looking at other alternatives for wireless as well, outside of bluetooth, however they wouldn't be as universal, especially with mobile devices.

Honestly, lack of Bluetooth connectivity is hardly a deal-breaker for me.  All of my current mechanical keyboards are wired, having a wired ErgoGP is fine.  I'm more interested in the design and layout, can't wait to try it out for myself!

Just thinking; maybe use a connecting cable for the L/R boards, and a single Bluetooth module for the PC connection?  I know it wouldn't appeal to folks who want to mount these boards on the armrests of their gaming chairs, but it would make for a nice clean desk-top.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 23 July 2013, 13:27:16
Thing is, unless I buy in massive quantities, a pair of RFM22 modules end up costing more than a single bluetooth radio, but that is an option I'm still looking at. I'm also looking at other alternatives for wireless as well, outside of bluetooth, however they wouldn't be as universal, especially with mobile devices.

Honestly, lack of Bluetooth connectivity is hardly a deal-breaker for me.  All of my current mechanical keyboards are wired, having a wired ErgoGP is fine.  I'm more interested in the design and layout, can't wait to try it out for myself!

Just thinking; maybe use a connecting cable for the L/R boards, and a single Bluetooth module for the PC connection?  I know it wouldn't appeal to folks who want to mount these boards on the armrests of their gaming chairs, but it would make for a nice clean desk-top.

I agree about the bluetooth. As for the cable, will it just be a standard TRRS cable like on the OG edox? If so, then for mounting it on chair arms for less movement('murica!), you could just get a longer cable.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 23 July 2013, 14:15:51
Honestly, lack of Bluetooth connectivity is hardly a deal-breaker for me.  All of my current mechanical keyboards are wired, having a wired ErgoGP is fine.  I'm more interested in the design and layout, can't wait to try it out for myself!

Just thinking; maybe use a connecting cable for the L/R boards, and a single Bluetooth module for the PC connection?  I know it wouldn't appeal to folks who want to mount these boards on the armrests of their gaming chairs, but it would make for a nice clean desk-top.
I agree about the bluetooth. As for the cable, will it just be a standard TRRS cable like on the OG edox? If so, then for mounting it on chair arms for less movement('murica!), you could just get a longer cable.

This is entirely possible, and from a firmware point is a bit simpler to manage, since your just changing how your transmitting the information, directing it over BT instead of USB. This is where I was planning to start from and work from there.

So I'm clear about it, I want to do the bluetooth option so that it's available for the Kickstarter campaign, so what I'm planning to do is start the development on it when the prototypes go out the door to you guys. Just like these boards, once I've got a working prototype that I'm satisfied with, I'll probably do something similar to what I have planned, and do a quick indiegogo campaign for the BT modules, again providing them at cost.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Glod on Tue, 23 July 2013, 15:08:40
honestly the wireless option on the ErgoGP sounds very attractive. eliminating the wires except for charging or just have AA's would be cool. though since you started bringing up this as being wireless i have wondered about the LEDs. i know without LEDs you could probably get a good amount of battery life. I think the bluetooth CherryMX KBTalking Pro gets 1000 hours of battery life on 2 AA's

wires is one of the things i freaking hate about my ergodox. i have been meaning to find a retractable TRRS cable.

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3739/9354408086_0ac53a41b3_n.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/9354408086/)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 23 July 2013, 18:56:58
honestly the wireless option on the ErgoGP sounds very attractive. eliminating the wires except for charging or just have AA's would be cool. though since you started bringing up this as being wireless i have wondered about the LEDs. i know without LEDs you could probably get a good amount of battery life. I think the bluetooth CherryMX KBTalking Pro gets 1000 hours of battery life on 2 AA's

wires is one of the things i freaking hate about my ergodox. i have been meaning to find a retractable TRRS cable.

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3739/9354408086_0ac53a41b3_n.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/9354408086/)

wow. You can get shorter cables...
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: bazemk1979 on Tue, 23 July 2013, 21:42:22
These are from the actual key, with the color tweaked a bit since the photos were slightly washed out when I took them. But those are (with maybe a slight exception to the red) color accurate to the LEDs.

Also, a bit more details from the key caps:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14273.jpg)

The one on the left was my second attempt with aligning to the center of the key. On the right was my first attempt, as well as my first (the circles) and second attempt (the patterning) at lasering the sides with a rig I designed to do it.
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14281.jpg)

Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14277.jpg)


New Conglomerate!!! I stopped playing PS2 :(
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 24 July 2013, 03:12:51
After a conversation with CommunistWitchDr on IRC, I ended up getting a little carried away:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14284.jpg)
the two top boards are just thumb clusters, so little to no development would be needed to add them to the mix :D And the pad at the bottom is a proper 10 key pad, however it's wide enough to fit a smartphone quite easily.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Wed, 24 July 2013, 05:55:14
After a conversation with CommunistWitchDr on IRC, I ended up getting a little carried away:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14284.jpg)

the two top boards are just thumb clusters, so little to no development would be needed to add them to the mix :D And the pad at the bottom is a proper 10 key pad, however it's wide enough to fit a smartphone quite easily.

Wow... that is one nice mountain of acrylic!


Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Tarzan on Wed, 24 July 2013, 07:07:34
After a conversation with CommunistWitchDr on IRC, I ended up getting a little carried away:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14284.jpg)

the two top boards are just thumb clusters, so little to no development would be needed to add them to the mix :D And the pad at the bottom is a proper 10 key pad, however it's wide enough to fit a smartphone quite easily.

Whoah, man!   :eek:  Step away from the fabricator, nice and slow...  You're going off the deep end, there!

 :p
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: hoggy on Wed, 24 July 2013, 07:52:02
I'm so in for a prototype - if there's still space.  Happy to pay to help out.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Wed, 24 July 2013, 08:10:11
I'm so in for a prototype - if there's still space.  Happy to pay to help out.

Yeah me too. Is there a way to know if we got on the list? Is there a list?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Wed, 24 July 2013, 08:12:29
That ain't a keyboard, that is a keystation
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: linziyi on Wed, 24 July 2013, 08:33:13
I think the numpad would be quite amazing, but the two thumb clusters don't seem quite useful...
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Wed, 24 July 2013, 08:47:03
That ain't a keyboard, that is a keystation

Nice one.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Wed, 24 July 2013, 10:05:02
After a conversation with CommunistWitchDr on IRC, I ended up getting a little carried away:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14284.jpg)

the two top boards are just thumb clusters, so little to no development would be needed to add them to the mix :D And the pad at the bottom is a proper 10 key pad, however it's wide enough to fit a smartphone quite easily.

Loving this! As a Kinesis Countoured owner I would love this. Is the angle still adjustable? I also would love to be able to move the hands farther apart as I have really broad sholders. This was something I was looking at building or the ergodox (a method to rotate them and put them in the right spot then lock them into place. I like the additional buttons better and would love to get my hands on this. (the additional buttons would be great for function keys and other macros.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Tarzan on Wed, 24 July 2013, 10:08:03
Make it all in gloss black polycarbonate, it would look at home on Darth Vader's desk. 
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Larken on Wed, 24 July 2013, 10:17:30
Can I get a Mech-Warrior to go with that keyboard?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Lastpilot on Wed, 24 July 2013, 10:43:00
Make it all in gloss black polycarbonate, it would look at home on Darth Vader's desk.
Really? I think the black and clear in OP look realllllllyyyy good. Super classy.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Tarzan on Wed, 24 July 2013, 10:50:46
Make it all in gloss black polycarbonate, it would look at home on Darth Vader's desk.
Really? I think the black and clear in OP look realllllllyyyy good. Super classy.

My comment was about the keystation, not the original version.   ;D
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Glod on Wed, 24 July 2013, 10:59:32
After a conversation with CommunistWitchDr on IRC, I ended up getting a little carried away:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14284.jpg)

the two top boards are just thumb clusters, so little to no development would be needed to add them to the mix :D And the pad at the bottom is a proper 10 key pad, however it's wide enough to fit a smartphone quite easily.

wayyyy too much going on, im sure some would like that though
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Wed, 24 July 2013, 11:30:13
Make it all in gloss black polycarbonate, it would look at home on Darth Vader's desk.
Really? I think the black and clear in OP look realllllllyyyy good. Super classy.

My comment was about the keystation, not the original version.   ;D

I lolled at the "keystation", I just coined a new term. LOL. ErgoGP just became ErgoKS :P
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 24 July 2013, 11:38:27
It's interesting how polarizing this has been. It's most definitely not for everyone, however it's for people like BlueByLiquid who prefer things like the Kinesis or Maltron boards, or who want the extra keys for even more shortcuts/macros/etc. Thats the great thing about how I've designed the base/stands, you can use the ErgoGP in a set up as crazy as this, or simpler like the laptop stands I showed earlier.

I'm also stealing that name mohitgarg :D

Can I get a Mech-Warrior to go with that keyboard?

Clan or Inner Sphere? I've always been partial to the Timber Wolf or Mad Dog personally.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Wed, 24 July 2013, 11:55:53
It's interesting how polarizing this has been. It's most definitely not for everyone, however it's for people like BlueByLiquid who prefer things like the Kinesis or Maltron boards, or who want the extra keys for even more shortcuts/macros/etc. Thats the great thing about how I've designed the base/stands, you can use the ErgoGP in a set up as crazy as this, or simpler like the laptop stands I showed earlier.

I'm also stealing that name mohitgarg :D

Can I get a Mech-Warrior to go with that keyboard?

Clan or Inner Sphere? I've always been partial to the Timber Wolf or Mad Dog personally.


I prefer Nova Cat.

Yes, I still play Mechwarrior 4.

BTW, am I on the beta test list yet? Did I get on? If I didn't. then there's no more point in life.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 24 July 2013, 12:28:39
Yes, I still play Mechwarrior 4.

BTW, am I on the beta test list yet? Did I get on? If I didn't. then there's no more point in life.

MW4 FTW!

As for the beta test list, everyone who's applied so far will get a unit, regardless of whether the payment comes through the indiegogo campaign, or independently.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Wed, 24 July 2013, 12:38:10
Yes, I still play Mechwarrior 4.

BTW, am I on the beta test list yet? Did I get on? If I didn't. then there's no more point in life.

MW4 FTW!

As for the beta test list, everyone who's applied so far will get a unit, regardless of whether the payment comes through the indiegogo campaign, or independently.

YES! MW44LIFE! It's funny, almost all of my favorite PC games are at least 10 years old. It's been great to hear that some older games, like the OG Jed Academy are going open source.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: hoggy on Wed, 24 July 2013, 12:38:58
If I'm on that list, then, AcidFire, I love you.  Thanks!


Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Wed, 24 July 2013, 12:43:37
He was already awesome.

As for the 'keystation', I wonder how hard it would be to stuff a Mini-ITX motherboard and PSU under that thing... Me likes.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Wed, 24 July 2013, 12:48:16
AcidFire, go ahead.

Your project came into 6th gear right about when I ordered all the things for my ErgoDox.

So I am unable to buy one at the stage no matter how much I want to get this, maybe in some months.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 24 July 2013, 13:19:30
He was already awesome.

As for the 'keystation', I wonder how hard it would be to stuff a Mini-ITX motherboard and PSU under that thing... Me likes.
I've just checked, a mini-itx board would actually fit quite nicely in the area between the main halves. A power supply would be another question entirely, as that would depend on what type of set up you were going for.

May just have to build myself a revival of my old amiga 500 lol.

AcidFire, go ahead.

Your project came into 6th gear right about when I ordered all the things for my ErgoDox.

So I am unable to buy one at the stage no matter how much I want to get this, maybe in some months.
No worries at all, I know timing doesn't always work out for people on this sort of thing, I've missed a number of kickstarter projects that I would have loved to jump in on. I know that you sourced everything for your ergodox yourself, and if you like I can let you know when the design is available and just the completed PCBs are available.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Wed, 24 July 2013, 13:24:42
He was already awesome.

As for the 'keystation', I wonder how hard it would be to stuff a Mini-ITX motherboard and PSU under that thing... Me likes.
I've just checked, a mini-itx board would actually fit quite nicely in the area between the main halves. A power supply would be another question entirely, as that would depend on what type of set up you were going for.

May just have to build myself a revival of my old amiga 500 lol.

AcidFire, go ahead.

Your project came into 6th gear right about when I ordered all the things for my ErgoDox.

So I am unable to buy one at the stage no matter how much I want to get this, maybe in some months.
No worries at all, I know timing doesn't always work out for people on this sort of thing, I've missed a number of kickstarter projects that I would have loved to jump in on. I know that you sourced everything for your ergodox yourself, and if you like I can let you know when the design is available and just the completed PCBs are available.

Thank you kind sir, that would be most excellent. Once the design is finalised, I may just get the PCB and the electronics, as I have the rest, the case if designs are available I can get cut here in India myself.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Wed, 24 July 2013, 13:33:57
He was already awesome.

As for the 'keystation', I wonder how hard it would be to stuff a Mini-ITX motherboard and PSU under that thing... Me likes.
I've just checked, a mini-itx board would actually fit quite nicely in the area between the main halves. A power supply would be another question entirely, as that would depend on what type of set up you were going for.

May just have to build myself a revival of my old amiga 500 lol.

Though it would have to run some linux distro with ratpoison so that you wouldn't need to take your hands off of the keystation too often. It looks very comfortable.

I really wish that I had access to a laser cutter. Then I could make a bunch of cool prototypes of stuff. I was thinking that it would be cool to get one of the Full Spectrum cutters, but I don't have the $$$ even for those.  :(

Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 24 July 2013, 13:42:53
Though it would have to run some linux distro with ratpoison so that you wouldn't need to take your hands off of the keystation too often. It looks very comfortable.

I really wish that I had access to a laser cutter. Then I could make a bunch of cool prototypes of stuff. I was thinking that it would be cool to get one of the Full Spectrum cutters, but I don't have the $$$ even for those.  :(
I was thinking it would be pretty easy to bury a RasPi in it, I may have to explore that down the road.

We have a full spectrum in the shop, they're great for production cutting, however setting up test cuts and what not on it is... a pain in the ass. They also don't engrave/etch nearly as well as the Epilogs we have.

As for the prototyping, I find I need to be careful as I can get carried away at times if I find a mistake or addition to make, it's easy to throw it in the laser or just to make a new part. Thankfully we buy acrylic in bulk so my costs per sheet are pretty low, but it still adds up pretty quick if your OCD like me.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Wed, 24 July 2013, 13:55:05
Though it would have to run some linux distro with ratpoison so that you wouldn't need to take your hands off of the keystation too often. It looks very comfortable.

I really wish that I had access to a laser cutter. Then I could make a bunch of cool prototypes of stuff. I was thinking that it would be cool to get one of the Full Spectrum cutters, but I don't have the $$$ even for those.  :(
I was thinking it would be pretty easy to bury a RasPi in it, I may have to explore that down the road.

We have a full spectrum in the shop, they're great for production cutting, however setting up test cuts and what not on it is... a pain in the ass. They also don't engrave/etch nearly as well as the Epilogs we have.

As for the prototyping, I find I need to be careful as I can get carried away at times if I find a mistake or addition to make, it's easy to throw it in the laser or just to make a new part. Thankfully we buy acrylic in bulk so my costs per sheet are pretty low, but it still adds up pretty quick if your OCD like me.

Ahh.. the raspi is a good idea!

Thanks for the info on the lasers. Random other optional question, what industry do you work in?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 24 July 2013, 14:02:12
I'm the IT/Web guy for a company called Solarbotics (https://solarbotics.com/), we make hobbyist robotic & electronic kits. We also make these kits (http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/ef0b/).

I don't have any formal training for electronics, however I've picked up a ton of stuff working here, including PCB design, coding in C, etc etc. I also designed this:
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Wed, 24 July 2013, 17:39:39
I'm the IT/Web guy for a company called Solarbotics (https://solarbotics.com/), we make hobbyist robotic & electronic kits. We also make these kits (http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/ef0b/).

I don't have any formal training for electronics, however I've picked up a ton of stuff working here, including PCB design, coding in C, etc etc. I also designed this:

Cool!

As for the youtube link, it was a valiant effort, but it needs to be http, not https.

Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 24 July 2013, 17:42:22
Cool!
As for the youtube link, it was a valiant effort, but it needs to be http, not https.

I have no idea what your talking about (quietly fixes original post)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Wed, 24 July 2013, 21:09:02
I don't have any formal training for electronics, however I've picked up a ton of stuff working here, including PCB design, coding in C, etc etc. I also designed this:

I don't have formal training in anything, but I've learned a LOT from helpful people on the web.

Do you use Mr. Bitey in production? He looks very useful.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Wed, 24 July 2013, 23:02:38
After a conversation with CommunistWitchDr on IRC, I ended up getting a little carried away:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14284.jpg)

the two top boards are just thumb clusters, so little to no development would be needed to add them to the mix :D And the pad at the bottom is a proper 10 key pad, however it's wide enough to fit a smartphone quite easily.

I need this design for my Ergodox! Any chance it would fit? If so can you send me the code for laser printing? I have access to a laser cutter.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 25 July 2013, 00:44:17
I don't have formal training in anything, but I've learned a LOT from helpful people on the web.

Do you use Mr. Bitey in production? He looks very useful.
Not currently. It uses a photogate to count parts, but if they end up bent to where it can't count properly it messes up the counts. I'm looking at either using a stepper which can reliably move the spool forward for the 5.5mm distance between components, or a photogate with a narrow enough beam that I could use the legs of the components at the edges of the reel to count accurately. I'll probably end up working on it some time in september when a ton of our web work is done.


I need this design for my Ergodox! Any chance it would fit? If so can you send me the code for laser printing? I have access to a laser cutter.
Unfortunately I don't think it will. While they share the same basic shape, the size of the units and and & position of the thumb are different.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Thu, 25 July 2013, 09:39:01
Unfortunately I don't think it will. While they share the same basic shape, the size of the units and and & position of the thumb are different.
[/quote]

Ok thanks. I just really think this type of thing would make the ergodox usable for me so maybe I will do something similar when I get some free time (Probablly never :) )
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Thu, 25 July 2013, 10:26:24
He was already awesome.

As for the 'keystation', I wonder how hard it would be to stuff a Mini-ITX motherboard and PSU under that thing... Me likes.
I've just checked, a mini-itx board would actually fit quite nicely in the area between the main halves. A power supply would be another question entirely, as that would depend on what type of set up you were going for.

Hmm... PicoPSU? Cooling would be another issue. You would probably need to use one of the new 55W i3 CPUs, or one of the newer AMD ones. For the GPU, it would be best to use one of the mini-graphics-card variations of the 640/650...
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: OldDataHands on Thu, 25 July 2013, 11:27:54
The tenting angle on your keystation looks nice to me. The apparent lack of rotation about the Z axis looks like something to be fixed. Is the yaw adjustable? Why have you chosen no rotation?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Thu, 25 July 2013, 18:58:31
The tenting angle on your keystation looks nice to me. The apparent lack of rotation about the Z axis looks like something to be fixed. Is the yaw adjustable? Why have you chosen no rotation?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by Z axis.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: OldDataHands on Thu, 25 July 2013, 20:46:31
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by Z axis.
hmm... how to better express myself... One of the great things about the split hands is that you can orient them such that your wrists can be in a neutral position even when your hands are close together. It appears that this flexibility might be lost in the keystation setup, and to me that would be a shame, and a loss of ergo.  Spinning on the desk surface === rotate on Z axis === yaw.  I would like to see this degree of freedom maintained...
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Thu, 25 July 2013, 20:58:54
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by Z axis.
hmm... how to better express myself... One of the great things about the split hands is that you can orient them such that your wrists can be in a neutral position even when your hands are close together. It appears that this flexibility might be lost in the keystation setup, and to me that would be a shame, and a loss of ergo.  Spinning on the desk surface === rotate on Z axis === yaw.  I would like to see this degree of freedom maintained...

Ah... ok.  That is what I've always thought of the Z axis as being. I can definitely see where you're coming from. I think that the keystaition was just an experimental thing. I'd be surprised if AcidFire plans to continue much more on it's development.

That said, it's a great idea.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Thu, 25 July 2013, 21:18:02
I hoped that there was a bit of rotation in a finalized product like that also I would love to have it be able to widen or narrow if you have really broad sholders like me. I don't think that is something that will be soon but I know I would love it. I also hope the tenting in that design is adjustable because to play games I like to have the keys flat but angled when typing.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 26 July 2013, 00:41:48
It was mostly experimental, and while yes I wasn't originally intending to offer it, I think I may just put a bit more time and offer it as a higher up reward for the kickstarter.

As for the angles, I have an idea swimming in my head on how to do user adjustable Z. And the tilt will be adjustable through removable peices. If I get enough cash for injection molding I should be able to do something a little bit more flexible.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 26 July 2013, 09:51:28
It was mostly experimental, and while yes I wasn't originally intending to offer it, I think I may just put a bit more time and offer it as a higher up reward for the kickstarter.

As for the angles, I have an idea swimming in my head on how to do user adjustable Z. And the tilt will be adjustable through removable peices. If I get enough cash for injection molding I should be able to do something a little bit more flexible.

Yeah...

It is intriguing, if nothing else.

With all that space, it would be tempting to try to mod it into a computer case, using a PicoPSU.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 26 July 2013, 11:38:12
Definitely, would like to see what's managable, tho building the PC would either make it bigger to accomodate the ability to pivot the inputs, or a fixed angle to keep it all the same size.

On a different note, will I have complete faith that the boards from Seeed studio will be quality, however, will never pick the EMS option again when I want them at a reasonable time >_< here's hoping they'll atleast hit canada over the weekend. In the meantime I've gotten most of the firmware prepped, very eager to test it.

I've also been looking at LEDs, and was wondering what colors people would be interested in for their proto kits?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 26 July 2013, 12:01:28
Definitely, would like to see what's managable, tho building the PC would either make it bigger to accomodate the ability to pivot the inputs, or a fixed angle to keep it all the same size.

On a different note, will I have complete faith that the boards from Seeed studio will be quality, however, will never pick the EMS option again when I want them at a reasonable time >_< here's hoping they'll atleast hit canada over the weekend. In the meantime I've gotten most of the firmware prepped, very eager to test it.

I've also been looking at LEDs, and was wondering what colors people would be interested in for their proto kits?

Seeed has a reputation for good quality. I say good choice.

For LEDs, I don't understand how you could include them in the proto kits at that price. If that does come through, I would love green.  :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Fri, 26 July 2013, 12:23:27
Purple or slow fade rainbow is the best led color
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 26 July 2013, 12:55:44
Seeed has a reputation for good quality. I say good choice.

For LEDs, I don't understand how you could include them in the proto kits at that price. If that does come through, I would love green.  :D

Buying in bulk makes it cheaper for sure. Only issue w/ 3mm leds is that it limits your choices a bit for brightness/color/manfacturer/price, but I have Green, Blue, Red & Yellow on my list and I'm looking for white as well.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 26 July 2013, 13:03:56
Seeed has a reputation for good quality. I say good choice.

For LEDs, I don't understand how you could include them in the proto kits at that price. If that does come through, I would love green.  :D

Buying in bulk makes it cheaper for sure. Only issue w/ 3mm leds is that it limits your choices a bit for brightness/color/manfacturer/price, but I have Green, Blue, Red & Yellow on my list and I'm looking for white as well.

Hmm... white will be tricky.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: hoggy on Fri, 26 July 2013, 14:12:01
Purple or slow fade rainbow is the best led color
I like purple too.

... However, I'm more than happy to take what's easiest.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Fri, 26 July 2013, 15:11:37
Purple is great but it is VERY hard to find superbright purple LEDs. I couldn't find them the only ones I found we either not bright or that ugly pinkish color like the Ducky shine 2. Not sure where they got the ones for the Ducky shine 3 but they look great
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 26 July 2013, 15:14:16
It would look insanely awesome if the home row had different leds than the rest of the board.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Fri, 26 July 2013, 15:17:09
It would look insanely awesome if the home row had different leds than the rest of the board.

I disagree unless you use the RGB ones and do it programmatically. people are picky about lighting and you wouldn't get something everyone would be happy with
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 26 July 2013, 15:26:31
It would look insanely awesome if the home row had different leds than the rest of the board.

I disagree unless you use the RGB ones and do it programmatically. people are picky about lighting and you wouldn't get something everyone would be happy with

It was just a random thought.

Your opinion, however, remains valid.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 26 July 2013, 16:39:06
It was just a random thought.

Your opinion, however, remains valid.

I'd go even further and say that both opinions are valid for different crowds. Not everyone will be able to afford the RGB add-ons, and it's fairly simple to offer a customization option for those who don't. Nothing wrong with putting yourself in the position to cater to everyone without having to compromise :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 26 July 2013, 19:36:21
Nothing wrong with putting yourself in the position to cater to everyone without having to compromise :)

You're like bunny in that way.

Except bunny would give away a bunch of units, and require everyone who enters to post a picture of themselves playing piano with a piece of paper stuck to their face that says "bunnylake this is my favorite keyboard"  :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: linziyi on Fri, 26 July 2013, 19:44:29
Nothing wrong with putting yourself in the position to cater to everyone without having to compromise :)

You're like bunny in that way.

Except bunny would give away a bunch of units, and require everyone who enters to post a picture of themselves playing piano with a piece of paper stuck to their face that says "bunnylake this is my favorite keyboard"  :D

No kidding I can actually play a piano
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 26 July 2013, 20:01:46
Nothing wrong with putting yourself in the position to cater to everyone without having to compromise :)

You're like bunny in that way.

Except bunny would give away a bunch of units, and require everyone who enters to post a picture of themselves playing piano with a piece of paper stuck to their face that says "bunnylake this is my favorite keyboard"  :D

No kidding I can actually play a piano

Me too...
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: linziyi on Fri, 26 July 2013, 20:02:22
nice
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 26 July 2013, 20:03:58
nice

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42967.0

It's too bad that everypony just plays guitar and stuff like that...
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Larken on Fri, 26 July 2013, 23:11:05
Definitely, would like to see what's managable, tho building the PC would either make it bigger to accomodate the ability to pivot the inputs, or a fixed angle to keep it all the same size.

On a different note, will I have complete faith that the boards from Seeed studio will be quality, however, will never pick the EMS option again when I want them at a reasonable time >_< here's hoping they'll atleast hit canada over the weekend. In the meantime I've gotten most of the firmware prepped, very eager to test it.

I've also been looking at LEDs, and was wondering what colors people would be interested in for their proto kits?

At the prices you've been offering your prototype units at, I'd say any color of LEDs you decide/have would be fine. If it came down to preference, I guess UV/aquamarine blue would be sweet (mostly due to the rarity), though I definitely am not expecting you to be providing them for the protos.

For that matter, I wouldn't mind taking it led-less, then source and solder my own later. (In fact, I'll prefer it, as there are some mods to be done to the switches before adding leds, so as to maintain the ez-open switch capability after leds are added in).

edit: p.s. the timber wolf is definitely one of my favorites. However, I didn't get that much into the politics of the game, so no real preference between the two factions.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Sat, 27 July 2013, 12:40:41
Definitely, would like to see what's managable, tho building the PC would either make it bigger to accomodate the ability to pivot the inputs, or a fixed angle to keep it all the same size.

On a different note, will I have complete faith that the boards from Seeed studio will be quality, however, will never pick the EMS option again when I want them at a reasonable time >_< here's hoping they'll atleast hit canada over the weekend. In the meantime I've gotten most of the firmware prepped, very eager to test it.

I've also been looking at LEDs, and was wondering what colors people would be interested in for their proto kits?

At the prices you've been offering your prototype units at, I'd say any color of LEDs you decide/have would be fine. If it came down to preference, I guess UV/aquamarine blue would be sweet (mostly due to the rarity), though I definitely am not expecting you to be providing them for the protos.

For that matter, I wouldn't mind taking it led-less, then source and solder my own later. (In fact, I'll prefer it, as there are some mods to be done to the switches before adding leds, so as to maintain the ez-open switch capability after leds are added in).

edit: p.s. the timber wolf is definitely one of my favorites. However, I didn't get that much into the politics of the game, so no real preference between the two factions.

Clan FTW! Though I don't know much about the new Mechwarrior. I've only played MW4.

AcidFire: ETA on the indiegogo prototype campaign? If you already told us, then I probably missed it.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Sat, 27 July 2013, 13:18:06
The plan is to do it about a week or so after I get the first set of boards I'm waiting on. I'm hoping to get up and running as close to the beginning of the month as I can, and I'll be posting my proposed perks later today.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Sat, 27 July 2013, 13:19:27
The plan is to do it about a week or so after I get the first set of boards I'm waiting on. I'm hoping to get up and running as close to the beginning of the month as I can, and I'll be posting my proposed perks later today.

Thanks!


I hope you get your boards soon...
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Sat, 27 July 2013, 18:17:49
Am I the only one here who constantly checks this thread for new developments?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: linziyi on Sat, 27 July 2013, 18:30:42
Me as well
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Sat, 27 July 2013, 18:43:55
Me three
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Sat, 27 July 2013, 18:46:36
1) Goes to geekhack
2) Clicks on the updated posts
3) Looks to see if this one has anything new
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Sat, 27 July 2013, 18:47:50
1) Goes to geekhack
2) Clicks on the updated posts
3) Looks to see if this one has anything new

/me Just subscribes to this with tapatalk and never even needs to check
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Sat, 27 July 2013, 18:49:24
1) Goes to geekhack
2) Clicks on the updated posts
3) Looks to see if this one has anything new

/me Just subscribes to this with tapatalk and never even needs to check

*Doesn't have smartphone.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: linziyi on Sat, 27 July 2013, 18:50:19
*Doesn't have smartphone
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: linziyi on Sat, 27 July 2013, 18:51:36
So the keycaps would be blank, so what's the point of back-lighting?  :confused:
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Sat, 27 July 2013, 18:54:04
So the keycaps would be blank, so what's the point of back-lighting?  :confused:

To make it look cool!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Sat, 27 July 2013, 18:55:46
AcidFire: Will the EgroGP have similar customization for layouts as the OG ErgoDox?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Sat, 27 July 2013, 18:57:00
So the keycaps would be blank, so what's the point of back-lighting?  :confused:

To make it look cool!

Which is the only reason for backlighting on a board like this anyway, an ergo board has no purpose if you don't touchtype.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Sat, 27 July 2013, 19:07:18
So the keycaps would be blank, so what's the point of back-lighting?  :confused:

To make it look cool!

Which is the only reason for backlighting on a board like this anyway, an ergo board has no purpose if you don't touchtype.

Very true.

It is odd though.

I once decided to see if I could REALLY touch type, so I put a brown cloth over my hands and took a WPM test.

I could type just fine, but over the years of not touch typing, I had made a habit of looking at my hands while I type.

So, I was constantly glancing down at and sometimes staring at...

A brown cloth!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Sat, 27 July 2013, 19:10:12
By the way...

What kind of switches is everypony planning on getting with their unit?

I'd like to get clears.

I've tried blues, and found them MUCH too light.

But...

I loved the tactility.

Sooooo...

I'll try some clears!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: linziyi on Sat, 27 July 2013, 19:12:19
Would be amazing if there is an option to have black/white alternative keycaps, would look like a "real" piano!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Merloobi on Sat, 27 July 2013, 20:10:08
Ive been constantly checking rhe progress of this keyboard, but mostly lurking :)

Hope everything goes smoothly!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: ShallowMoon on Sun, 28 July 2013, 03:11:26
I've been checking here a lot too. I have a question though, will the key caps be staggered? Seems it would be a bit more ergonomical that way. Apologies if this question was already asked/answered.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Sun, 28 July 2013, 12:24:59
I have the thread on my notify list, so I get an email every time someone replies to the thread :D I love talking about this project.

To answer your questions:
1) So the keycaps would be blank, so what's the point of back-lighting?
Communist nailed it partially, but the blanks I'm ordering are clear so that I can potentially vinyl paint them and then laser etch markings into them. While this will be time consuming for me, I think it'll help to determine how well this will hold up over time to see what will wear away.

2) Will the EgroGP have similar customization for layouts as the OG ErgoDox?
What I have in mind will be better I think. Instead of having to reupload a new firmware to the device w/ your new layout, the software will be able to push the layout to your board without affecting the core firmware. The software will also have the ability to both share & download new layouts from a community site with ease. Creating layouts will also be a bit more simple/intuitive.

3) will the key caps be staggered? Seems it would be a bit more ergonomical that way. Apologies if this question was already asked/answered.
If your talking about staggering like a standard Qwerty board, no. If your talking about staggering the columns to better match the difference in fingers, yes. I've also staggered them a bit more than previous solutions, the index finger is a 6mm offset from the middle finger, while the pinkie keys are an 8mm offset from the middle finger.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Sciurid89 on Sun, 28 July 2013, 15:09:42
This think looks absolutely stunning. I am about to return my Kinesis because the thumb pads on it are way up in the sky relative to the fingers (ow.jpg). Recessing the thumb cluster is quite smart.

What is the measurement from the index homerow key to the center of the nearest possible 2x1 thumb key?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Sun, 28 July 2013, 15:42:33
This think looks absolutely stunning. I am about to return my Kinesis because the thumb pads on it are way up in the sky relative to the fingers (ow.jpg). Recessing the thumb cluster is quite smart.

What is the measurement from the index homerow key to the center of the nearest possible 2x1 thumb key?

Currently It comes in at 80mm, but that doesn't include the drop between the levels. If you take the drop as well, it's 80.5mm.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Glod on Sun, 28 July 2013, 22:39:52
I have the thread on my notify list, so I get an email every time someone replies to the thread :D I love talking about this project.

To answer your questions:
1) So the keycaps would be blank, so what's the point of back-lighting?
Communist nailed it partially, but the blanks I'm ordering are clear so that I can potentially vinyl paint them and then laser etch markings into them. While this will be time consuming for me, I think it'll help to determine how well this will hold up over time to see what will wear away.

2) Will the EgroGP have similar customization for layouts as the OG ErgoDox?
What I have in mind will be better I think. Instead of having to reupload a new firmware to the device w/ your new layout, the software will be able to push the layout to your board without affecting the core firmware. The software will also have the ability to both share & download new layouts from a community site with ease. Creating layouts will also be a bit more simple/intuitive.

3) will the key caps be staggered? Seems it would be a bit more ergonomical that way. Apologies if this question was already asked/answered.
If your talking about staggering like a standard Qwerty board, no. If your talking about staggering the columns to better match the difference in fingers, yes. I've also staggered them a bit more than previous solutions, the index finger is a 6mm offset from the middle finger, while the pinkie keys are an 8mm offset from the middle finger.

I don't like the idea of the layouts being software based and not pushed to the keyboard's firmware like the ergodox.

I  use multiple computers at the same desk. My work computer i cannot install any not-approved software and drivers due to the nature of my work, basically if it doesn't work plug and play i cant use it and the computer my keyboard gets action with the most is my work computer.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Sun, 28 July 2013, 23:11:44
I have the thread on my notify list, so I get an email every time someone replies to the thread :D I love talking about this project.

To answer your questions:
1) So the keycaps would be blank, so what's the point of back-lighting?
Communist nailed it partially, but the blanks I'm ordering are clear so that I can potentially vinyl paint them and then laser etch markings into them. While this will be time consuming for me, I think it'll help to determine how well this will hold up over time to see what will wear away.

2) Will the EgroGP have similar customization for layouts as the OG ErgoDox?
What I have in mind will be better I think. Instead of having to reupload a new firmware to the device w/ your new layout, the software will be able to push the layout to your board without affecting the core firmware. The software will also have the ability to both share & download new layouts from a community site with ease. Creating layouts will also be a bit more simple/intuitive.

3) will the key caps be staggered? Seems it would be a bit more ergonomical that way. Apologies if this question was already asked/answered.
If your talking about staggering like a standard Qwerty board, no. If your talking about staggering the columns to better match the difference in fingers, yes. I've also staggered them a bit more than previous solutions, the index finger is a 6mm offset from the middle finger, while the pinkie keys are an 8mm offset from the middle finger.

I don't like the idea of the layouts being software based and not pushed to the keyboard's firmware like the ergodox.

I  use multiple computers at the same desk. My work computer i cannot install any not-approved software and drivers due to the nature of my work, basically if it doesn't work plug and play i cant use it and the computer my keyboard gets action with the most is my work computer.

The software on the computer pushes the layout to a fancy part of the board where the layout is stored without having to flash firmware. The firmware just reads the layout you push. It's still totally portable.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Glod on Sun, 28 July 2013, 23:35:01
I have the thread on my notify list, so I get an email every time someone replies to the thread :D I love talking about this project.

To answer your questions:
1) So the keycaps would be blank, so what's the point of back-lighting?
Communist nailed it partially, but the blanks I'm ordering are clear so that I can potentially vinyl paint them and then laser etch markings into them. While this will be time consuming for me, I think it'll help to determine how well this will hold up over time to see what will wear away.

2) Will the EgroGP have similar customization for layouts as the OG ErgoDox?
What I have in mind will be better I think. Instead of having to reupload a new firmware to the device w/ your new layout, the software will be able to push the layout to your board without affecting the core firmware. The software will also have the ability to both share & download new layouts from a community site with ease. Creating layouts will also be a bit more simple/intuitive.

3) will the key caps be staggered? Seems it would be a bit more ergonomical that way. Apologies if this question was already asked/answered.
If your talking about staggering like a standard Qwerty board, no. If your talking about staggering the columns to better match the difference in fingers, yes. I've also staggered them a bit more than previous solutions, the index finger is a 6mm offset from the middle finger, while the pinkie keys are an 8mm offset from the middle finger.

I don't like the idea of the layouts being software based and not pushed to the keyboard's firmware like the ergodox.

I  use multiple computers at the same desk. My work computer i cannot install any not-approved software and drivers due to the nature of my work, basically if it doesn't work plug and play i cant use it and the computer my keyboard gets action with the most is my work computer.

The software on the computer pushes the layout to a fancy part of the board where the layout is stored without having to flash firmware. The firmware just reads the layout you push. It's still totally portable.

if that is the case then ok
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 29 July 2013, 00:57:28
My apologies for the confusion (and thanks to Communist for explaining it), allow me to elaborate for those of you who are a bit more technical. The plan is to store the layouts in external EEPROM instead of as part of the firmware, making it simpler and safer (botching an EEPROM write isn't nearly as bad as a firmware issue) for the less technical crowd to update their boards. This will also be expandable as well.

As I was at work today and running something else through the laser, I decided to follow through on the pivoting idea:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14295.jpg)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14289.jpg)
20 Degree Z rotation
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14290.jpg)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14292.jpg)
The current design allows up to a 45 degree rotation
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14294.jpg)
This design has a  support that slides out with the main plate to help support the controllers

I've got a number of notes as to what I'm going to do differently with the next one, but so far I'm happy with how much more flexible this makes the current set up.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: hoggy on Mon, 29 July 2013, 01:18:35
I'm impressed.

The attention to detail is just fascinating.

Don't you sleep?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: hoggy on Mon, 29 July 2013, 01:22:27
Would it be possible to split the base plate between the two controllers and then couple them in a way that could be adjusted?  I'm thinking of those with broad or narrow shoulders? 
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Mon, 29 July 2013, 01:24:28
Tenting. Check.
Z-Axis rotation. Check
Movement along X-Axis?
Movement along Y-Axis?

:P
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 29 July 2013, 01:55:18
Would it be possible to split the base plate between the two controllers and then couple them in a way that could be adjusted?  I'm thinking of those with broad or narrow shoulders? 
I hadn't given any thought to it, but after you brought it up an idea is forming for the next revision, so we'll see how this goes in the next round.

I'm impressed.

The attention to detail is just fascinating.

Don't you sleep?
A lot of this stuff comes to me as I work out the basic design, and I get a bit OCD with getting measurements just right.

You know, I get asked the sleep question a lot lol.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Mon, 29 July 2013, 07:15:28
My apologies for the confusion (and thanks to Communist for explaining it), allow me to elaborate for those of you who are a bit more technical. The plan is to store the layouts in external EEPROM instead of as part of the firmware, making it simpler and safer (botching an EEPROM write isn't nearly as bad as a firmware issue) for the less technical crowd to update their boards. This will also be expandable as well.

As I was at work today and running something else through the laser, I decided to follow through on the pivoting idea:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14295.jpg)

Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14289.jpg)

20 Degree Z rotation
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14290.jpg)

Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14292.jpg)

The current design allows up to a 45 degree rotation
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14294.jpg)

This design has a  support that slides out with the main plate to help support the controllers

I've got a number of notes as to what I'm going to do differently with the next one, but so far I'm happy with how much more flexible this makes the current set up.

Wow... that's amazing!


I'm curoius, how much eep are you using?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: wesleyh on Mon, 29 July 2013, 07:49:21
This is an amazing keyboard. Would be even greater if you could add a trackball to the equation, somewhere in the middle most likely?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Mon, 29 July 2013, 08:21:23
Love the new design. Great work! I would second the ability to make the device wider as I have extremely broad solders.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Larken on Mon, 29 July 2013, 08:31:58
looking more and more badass with each update. Honestly can't wait for beta to start.

are you planning to offer the numpad for sale in the future too? Would be nice to finally have a numpad that matches the acrylic aesthetic of both the ErgoGP and the Ergodox.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 29 July 2013, 10:33:46
looking more and more badass with each update. Honestly can't wait for beta to start.

are you planning to offer the numpad for sale in the future too? Would be nice to finally have a numpad that matches the acrylic aesthetic of both the ErgoGP and the Ergodox.
That's the plan. I doubt it will be a part of the Kickstarter campaign, however I do plan to make it available after the kickstarter units have been shipped and I open up web sales.

Wow... that's amazing!


I'm curoius, how much eep are you using?
Thank you :) Whats eep?


Love the new design. Great work! I would second the ability to make the device wider as I have extremely broad solders.
Will keep that in mind. As I said, I have an idea on how to do it, so it'll come down to how it works out in practice.

This is an amazing keyboard. Would be even greater if you could add a trackball to the equation, somewhere in the middle most likely?
I've been giving this some thought as well, with a trackpad being another option as well. A big part of the question is whether to use something existing and mod it to fit, or to design a completely new add on for it. Time will tell what the best option will be.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: linziyi on Mon, 29 July 2013, 10:49:01
You can add some gears to make the two parts of the keyboard move/rotate symmetrically... Not sure if you understand what I mean
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 29 July 2013, 10:51:16
That's a possibility, however I've never been a fan of that type of setup as it locks you into a certain position on both sides instead of being more flexible. Also, that type of system would increase the difficulty/cost of being able to allow the user to spread them out to better suit themselves.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: ephson on Mon, 29 July 2013, 12:37:01
I have been a lurker for a couple of days now. I would love to join your beta when you get it up on Indiegogo. I am new to Keyboard modding, However I'm a programmer by day (Android developer) and I am not new to soldering and Arduino hacking. I would love to help out in anyway I can.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Mon, 29 July 2013, 12:59:27
Wow... that's amazing!


I'm curoius, how much eep are you using?
Thank you :) Whats eep?

eep[rom]

1k
2k
4k
8k
16k
32k
64k
128k
256k
512k
1024k?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 29 July 2013, 13:10:13
Ah gotcha, never heard it referred to as such before. I'm embedding a 1mbit module, so 128kb. The addon module would add another 384k (3x 1mbit), making for a total of 512kb, should be more than ample space to store just about anything the layouts + macros will ever need.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Mon, 29 July 2013, 13:16:20
Ah gotcha, never heard it referred to as such before. I'm embedding a 1mbit module, so 128kb. The addon module would add another 384k (3x 1mbit), making for a total of 512kb, should be more than ample space to store just about anything the layouts + macros will ever need.

Not bad...

It depends on how efficiently you format your resources, but 128k should be plenty.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: ephson on Mon, 29 July 2013, 16:50:43
FYI: there is an Ergodox set in this groupbuy:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44912.0
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 29 July 2013, 16:55:04
FYI: there is an Ergodox set in this groupbuy:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44912.0
I was originally going to grab a set or two, but with the new sets SP is making available for DSA base & modifier, I'm able to order exactly what I need and cheaper than the Dolch kit.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: ephson on Mon, 29 July 2013, 17:24:23
FYI: there is an Ergodox set in this groupbuy:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44912.0
I was originally going to grab a set or two, but with the new sets SP is making available for DSA base & modifier, I'm able to order exactly what I need and cheaper than the Dolch kit.

Are these sets available to all? If so, anyway I can get a link?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 29 July 2013, 17:32:46
It's just the DSA PBT blank kits they're currently offering. (http://www.keycapsdirect.com/marketplace.php)

In other news, look what just walked through the front door :D
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/IMG_1962.jpg)
I will be cutting up the first couple after work today and I'll start populating them later tonight :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Mon, 29 July 2013, 17:34:48
In other news, look what just walked through the front door :D
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/IMG_1962.jpg)

I will be cutting up the first couple after work today and I'll start populating them later tonight :D

SCORE!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: ephson on Mon, 29 July 2013, 17:43:01
It's just the DSA PBT blank kits they're currently offering. (http://www.keycapsdirect.com/marketplace.php)

Thanks! I will be getting a set or 2.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Mon, 29 July 2013, 18:44:36
In other news, look what just walked through the front door :D
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/IMG_1962.jpg)

I will be cutting up the first couple after work today and I'll start populating them later tonight :D

How many boards worth is that?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: linziyi on Mon, 29 July 2013, 19:28:33
5 I believe
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Mon, 29 July 2013, 19:32:44
5 I believe


I count 10 main boards and 20 thumb clusters.

2 main and 2 thumb each so 5.

But what about the other 10 thumb clusters?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 29 July 2013, 22:04:21
While it should be enough to do 5 sets w/ some extras, in practice the yields are much lower because I unfortunately packed the boards a bit too tight on the panelization. Getting a good cut on one board is leaving another somewhat ruined. I should however end up with atleast enough to build two with a few spares.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 30 July 2013, 10:23:52
While it should be enough to do 5 sets w/ some extras, in practice the yields are much lower because I unfortunately packed the boards a bit too tight on the panelization. Getting a good cut on one board is leaving another somewhat ruined. I should however end up with atleast enough to build two with a few spares.


How are you cutting them?

Laser cutter?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: daerid on Tue, 30 July 2013, 10:28:02
I want in on this.

I NEED in on this.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 30 July 2013, 11:35:32
I'm currently cutting them w/ a bandsaw. I got the soldering done last night for the first test units, I'll be wiring them up to a controller later and taking them for a spin to see how the multiplexing works out. If the board works out to be solid the next step is to order a small batch of the boards you guys would be getting for further testing & verification (w/ MUCH faster shipping.) Because everything will be in place and just waiting on the boards, it should only take me a day or two to verify everything works before offering up the beta batch.

Now, on the ordering process, I have the ability to put up a private site instead of indiegogo to allow you guys to purchase beta kits without fear of someone taking your spot (verifying by beta sign up), would this be preferable to you? Everything is still done through paypal (ew I know) but locked down to those of you who are actually interested in helping out. This would also allow me to gather data faster as to what type of configuration you guys would be interested in, LED color, thumb layout, etc etc. without a lot of back and forth. What do you guys think?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: hoggy on Tue, 30 July 2013, 11:42:16
For all the work you've put in, I'm more than happy to go with whatever would be easiest for you.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Glod on Tue, 30 July 2013, 12:09:35
I want in on this.

I NEED in on this.

did you sign up?

I'm currently cutting them w/ a bandsaw. I got the soldering done last night for the first test units, I'll be wiring them up to a controller later and taking them for a spin to see how the multiplexing works out. If the board works out to be solid the next step is to order a small batch of the boards you guys would be getting for further testing & verification (w/ MUCH faster shipping.) Because everything will be in place and just waiting on the boards, it should only take me a day or two to verify everything works before offering up the beta batch.

Now, on the ordering process, I have the ability to put up a private site instead of indiegogo to allow you guys to purchase beta kits without fear of someone taking your spot (verifying by beta sign up), would this be preferable to you? Everything is still done through paypal (ew I know) but locked down to those of you who are actually interested in helping out. This would also allow me to gather data faster as to what type of configuration you guys would be interested in, LED color, thumb layout, etc etc. without a lot of back and forth. What do you guys think?

sounds good

Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: ephson on Tue, 30 July 2013, 12:13:05
Now, on the ordering process, I have the ability to put up a private site instead of indiegogo to allow you guys to purchase beta kits without fear of someone taking your spot (verifying by beta sign up), would this be preferable to you? Everything is still done through paypal (ew I know) but locked down to those of you who are actually interested in helping out. This would also allow me to gather data faster as to what type of configuration you guys would be interested in, LED color, thumb layout, etc etc. without a lot of back and forth. What do you guys think?


This sounds great to me. I'm in.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Tarzan on Tue, 30 July 2013, 12:17:20
For all the work you've put in, I'm more than happy to go with whatever would be easiest for you.

+1

Just let us know where to go to sign up, although I think you already have my info on the beta tester signup sheet.   ;D
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: wesleyh on Tue, 30 July 2013, 12:30:34
so how does this beta test work again exactly? do we need to send the kit back afterwards?

and what kind of feedback do you need from beta testers? is this limited to US only?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Tue, 30 July 2013, 12:39:52
acidfire, that sounds good. Paypal is fine with me. I'm ready today if you need to test the process. :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Tue, 30 July 2013, 15:03:58
As an insteresting note. It seems Razer has starting using small mechnical switches for the large number of buttons on their new version of the Naga Mouse. I wonder if these would make for a great way to add small Function keys without increasing the size much.
http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-mice/razer-naga
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 30 July 2013, 16:52:12
As an insteresting note. It seems Razer has starting using small mechnical switches for the large number of buttons on their new version of the Naga Mouse. I wonder if these would make for a great way to add small Function keys without increasing the size much.
http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-mice/razer-naga

I'm not sure what Razer means by "mechanical switches".
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: ephson on Tue, 30 July 2013, 17:05:17

I'm not sure what Razer means by "mechanical switches".

I'm, not convinced that they know either...
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 30 July 2013, 17:33:57

I'm not sure what Razer means by "mechanical switches".

I'm, not convinced that they know either...

It is absolutely impossible for them to use Cherry MX switches.

It may be, that they are using some kind of RD switch.

I like my 2012 Naga, but the buttons are much too stiff.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 30 July 2013, 17:39:25
Hrmm...

How to do paypal...

I will be gone from tomorrow until next week.

I'll try to do something then.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Tue, 30 July 2013, 17:49:03
Hrmm...

How to do paypal...

I will be gone from tomorrow until next week.

I'll try to do something then.

wait are we already supposed to send money?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 30 July 2013, 18:02:48
Hrmm...

How to do paypal...

I will be gone from tomorrow until next week.

I'll try to do something then.

wait are we already supposed to send money?

No, not yet I think.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Tue, 30 July 2013, 18:12:07
Hrmm...

How to do paypal...

I will be gone from tomorrow until next week.

I'll try to do something then.

wait are we already supposed to send money?

No, not yet I think.


I got confused by your statement about doing it tomorrow.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 30 July 2013, 21:21:37
Hrmm...

How to do paypal...

I will be gone from tomorrow until next week.

I'll try to do something then.

wait are we already supposed to send money?

No, not yet I think.


I got confused by your statement about doing it tomorrow.

Oh.

I meant when I get back next week.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: wiredPANDA on Wed, 31 July 2013, 16:04:39
How have I overlooked this thread for so long.   Nice work on this AcidFire!

To add fuel to the fire --- where do we sign up/throw our money?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 31 July 2013, 17:41:36
I'll be putting the site together over the weekend for where you guys can order, as I'll be testing my boards over the next couple of days and should hopefully be readying the next batch for order by tuesday. After that it'll come down to whether I feel I need to do another board revision before ordering the prototype batch, or if I should just go for it. Either way, I'll have a firm timeline for Tuesday (yay long weekend!).
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Glod on Thu, 01 August 2013, 16:42:40
one thing if you ever get around to it is update the original post of the topic with the current status of the project and it is looking with the design. Some people may not get where this project is at unless they go through every page

on the other hand, it has become a nice little elite ErgoGP fan club going on in here, I haven't seen TP4Tissue show up yet in here :O
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 02 August 2013, 02:36:24
one thing if you ever get around to it is update the original post of the topic with the current status of the project and it is looking with the design. Some people may not get where this project is at unless they go through every page

on the other hand, it has become a nice little elite ErgoGP fan club going on in here, I haven't seen TP4Tissue show up yet in here :O

I'll definitely update the front over the weekend, I've got a fair amount of time slotted for working on development and whatnot.

Speaking of updates, I was able to test the boards tonight and everything looks pretty good so far. Next is to test the micros which I'm expecting to be a bit more involved, but I feel confident w/ the design to order the next revision of the boards for testing before I offer it up to you guys.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: audukent on Fri, 02 August 2013, 09:03:16
I am very interested in your ErgoGP.  The work you have done on it is magnificent
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 02 August 2013, 14:22:54
I am very interested in your ErgoGP.  The work you have done on it is magnificent

Thank you :)

While it isn't much in the way of further progress, I've created a twitter account for those interested in following: @multiplxd. I'm also setting up accounts on YouTube, google+, etc etc. to better share what I'm working outside of the forum.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Tarzan on Fri, 02 August 2013, 14:33:30
I am very interested in your ErgoGP.  The work you have done on it is magnificent

Thank you :)

While it isn't much in the way of further progress, I've created a twitter account for those interested in following: @multiplxd. I'm also setting up accounts on YouTube, google+, etc etc. to better share what I'm working outside of the forum.

Is that the right Twitter handle?  I couldn't find it via a quick search.  I'm on Twitter as well, @Greystoke.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 02 August 2013, 14:38:02
I am very interested in your ErgoGP.  The work you have done on it is magnificent

Thank you :)

While it isn't much in the way of further progress, I've created a twitter account for those interested in following: @multiplxd. I'm also setting up accounts on YouTube, google+, etc etc. to better share what I'm working outside of the forum.

Is that the right Twitter handle?  I couldn't find it via a quick search.  I'm on Twitter as well, @Greystoke.

Thats odd, it may not come up right away since it's a fairly new account and I'm sure theres some caching involved somewhere. I followed you so you should be able to see my account, let me know if it comes up as something different.

Also, just a very quick demo of the backlight LEDs running an animation:

Edit: When you search on twitter, make sure you set the filter on the left to people. The account doesn't come up on the main search because it hasn't been mentioned in any tweets yet.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Tarzan on Fri, 02 August 2013, 14:49:17
Got it.  I was using the wrong search box, thanks for the pointer!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: linziyi on Fri, 02 August 2013, 15:13:15
amazing
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: wiredPANDA on Fri, 02 August 2013, 21:59:33
Just retweeted your link --- so you're mentioned in tweets now.  =]
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: fisofo on Sat, 03 August 2013, 02:27:40
Sa-weet.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: insilica on Mon, 05 August 2013, 06:50:35
Very nice work Sir!

Thank you for sharing and I look forward to assembling one of these :D.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Loligagger on Mon, 05 August 2013, 17:01:27
Pretty interested in the final board. However, would black DSA PBTs be possible as a keyset (with enough extras for the different thumb variations)? What about stabilizers for 2x keys?

On the software side, layers being active only while a switch is pressed & layer indicators are possible right?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 05 August 2013, 17:48:33
Do you mean blank or labeled sets? I'm definitely going to make a full blank black set of DSA PBT caps available, along with a couple other options.

As for the layers, you will be able to either toggle (stays on that layer) or shift (only active while holding a key). You can also set the toggle and shift keys to target specific layers, and any key can be set to shift or toggle.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Loligagger on Mon, 05 August 2013, 19:06:46
Yea, I did mean blank sets. Sounds pretty good so far. Can the software do LED layer indicators?

Either way I'm most likely in when the final board rolls around.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 05 August 2013, 20:33:03
Yea, I did mean blank sets. Sounds pretty good so far. Can the software do LED layer indicators?

Either way I'm most likely in when the final board rolls around.

That's the plan. You'll be able to set which LED the layer toggles, and when I make the RGB add on, the color too.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: linziyi on Mon, 05 August 2013, 20:38:20
what addons are you planning to made available for the beta kits?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: do_Og@n on Mon, 05 August 2013, 20:50:52
That ErgoDox reminds me of a really nice Steinway and Sons Grand Piano.

Awesome work....I wish these were cheaper so I could afford one.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: agodinhost on Mon, 05 August 2013, 21:28:31
Again, Awesome work acid!

I'm really interested to see how you are going to manage this amount of leds (the required power and general wiring circuitry).
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 05 August 2013, 21:39:52
Again, Awesome work acid!

I'm really interested to see how you are going to manage this amount of leds (the required power and general wiring circuitry).

Thank you :D

The wiring is fairly simple, being a straight forward matrix layout. For those of you unfamiliar with how this works, it's pretty much exactly like the switch array on a keyboard, providing power one row and a time and cycling through the columns to give the power a route through the LED. This is strobed very quickly, faster than your eye can pick up, and ends up using very little power.

what addons are you planning to made available for the beta kits?

The standard kit will be all that will be available at the start, as well as some of the options for the stands. I may offer more when the Bluetooth modules are made available as well.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 06 August 2013, 04:06:15
Just thought I'd share a quick update. I've been making some minor tweaks to the PCBs and sorted out a couple of issues and made some improvements:
1) beefed up the power traces. All the traces on the board the first time round were 10mil, I've sinced uped the 5v & gnd rails to 15mil, including bulking up the vias.
2) added a crystal to both sides of the main & thumb boards. I still have a ways to go w/ pwm control, and the crystals give me the option to bump up to 16mhz if I need to.
3) caught a routing problem on the main board, right side. Missed some I/O >_<
4) added an additional pair of address jumpers. You can now add up to 16 (8 per side) thumb pads.
5) added a 3.5mm connection point to thumb pads for external use.
6) sorted out connectors between main & thumb boards. There are options for permanent & modular connections.
7) shifted over & optimized main boards ISP header. This allows for a pass through connector to be used on the RGB add on, simplifying the connection without using something difficult like ZIF cables.
8) added inline spi header to CPU module for future bluetooth addon.
9) added indicator LEDs to CPU board for power & USB tx/rx (mostly troubleshooting). Can be disabled via a jumper.
10) designed external number pad.
11) designed external 4x5 button array.
12) updated case designs to accommodate pcb changes. Also moved and added case screws for better stability. I have button head & counter sunk screws on order for testing.
13) outlined the addressing table for all boards.
13) outlined the i2c commands for switch polling & LEDs on the sub boards.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: wesleyh on Tue, 06 August 2013, 04:11:08
I don't understand what half of the updates mean, but nevertheless thank you for your hard work! Can you post some new pictures if anything physical changed?

Does this also mean a trackball will not be included in the design?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: agodinhost on Tue, 06 August 2013, 06:41:36
The wiring is fairly simple, being a straight forward matrix layout. For those of you unfamiliar with how this works, it's pretty much exactly like the switch array on a keyboard, providing power one row and a time and cycling through the columns to give the power a route through the LED. This is strobed very quickly, faster than your eye can pick up, and ends up using very little power.
I saw one arduino mega in one of your pictures and I think I saw it in the video too - are you planning to use it into the final version? I don't know any avr usb capable IC with this number of available ports ...
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Tue, 06 August 2013, 06:46:28
Just thought I'd share a quick update. I've been making some minor tweaks to the PCBs and sorted out a couple of issues and made some improvements:
1) beefed up the power traces. All the traces on the board the first time round were 10mil, I've sinced uped the 5v & gnd rails to 15mil, including bulking up the vias.
2) added a crystal to both sides of the main & thumb boards. I still have a ways to go w/ pwm control, and the crystals give me the option to bump up to 16mhz if I need to.
3) caught a routing problem on the main board, right side. Missed some I/O >_<
4) added an additional pair of address jumpers. You can now add up to 16 (8 per side) thumb pads.
5) added a 3.5mm connection point to thumb pads for external use.
6) sorted out connectors between main & thumb boards. There are options for permanent & modular connections.
7) shifted over & optimized main boards ISP header. This allows for a pass through connector to be used on the RGB add on, simplifying the connection without using something difficult like ZIF cables.
8) added inline spi header to CPU module for future bluetooth addon.
9) added indicator LEDs to CPU board for power & USB tx/rx (mostly troubleshooting). Can be disabled via a jumper.
10) designed external number pad.
11) designed external 4x5 button array.
12) updated case designs to accommodate pcb changes. Also moved and added case screws for better stability. I have button head & counter sunk screws on order for testing.
13) outlined the addressing table for all boards.
13) outlined the i2c commands for switch polling & LEDs on the sub boards.

Wow!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: vatin on Tue, 06 August 2013, 07:08:34
I may have missed something, but will this be open source like ergodox?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Tue, 06 August 2013, 07:13:11
I may have missed something, but will this be open source like ergodox?

Once everything is finalised, yes, OP has mentioned he is a supporter of open source and open hardware and would like the same for the ErgoGP.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: hoggy on Tue, 06 August 2013, 07:31:29
I like the sound of

5) added a 3.5mm connection point to thumb pads for external use.

Does this mean I can add a standard switch and map it to a key?  If so, I'll be tempted to get my smiley face button out again.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Batmann on Tue, 06 August 2013, 08:06:02
That project is amazing  :eek:
I don't know how I missed it,
I can't wait to see the final version
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 06 August 2013, 10:25:27
I saw one arduino mega in one of your pictures and I think I saw it in the video too - are you planning to use it into the final version? I don't know any avr usb capable IC with this number of available ports ...
The mega was used for the simplicity of testing. The final control has a ATMEGA32u4 (used in the Teensy & Leonardo) as the main controller & interface to the PC side. Each keypad sub board has an ATTINY828 controlling the switches & LEDs (they have 28 usable I/O ports.) They're all connected over the i2c bus.

I may have missed something, but will this be open source like ergodox?

Once everything is finalised, yes, OP has mentioned he is a supporter of open source and open hardware and would like the same for the ErgoGP.
I'll clarify this too since I've been give some advice since I first started this project. At the end of everything, when the first production batch is ready, everything will be released, hardware and software. Up until that point, things like the case, PCBs, BOM, and anything else will production related will be held back. There would be nothing more frustrating than to go through all this work designing & testing and to have someone take advantage of that work while I'm raising funds.

What I will release before them will be the schematics, firmware, and source for the desktop software, once it's ready to be shared.

I like the sound of

5) added a 3.5mm connection point to thumb pads for external use.

Does this mean I can add a standard switch and map it to a key?  If so, I'll be tempted to get my smiley face button out again.
Unfortunately no, what it means is that you can use the thumb pad boards as extra keypads. I will be adding the ability to use custom buttons however, since it ties in with the ability to add a foot pedal.

That project is amazing  :eek:
I don't know how I missed it,
I can't wait to see the final version
Me too!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: anotherjunkie on Tue, 06 August 2013, 11:05:47
Just thought I'd share a quick update. I've been making some minor tweaks to the PCBs and sorted out a couple of issues and made some improvements:
1) beefed up the power traces. All the traces on the board the first time round were 10mil, I've sinced uped the 5v & gnd rails to 15mil, including bulking up the vias.
2) added a crystal to both sides of the main & thumb boards. I still have a ways to go w/ pwm control, and the crystals give me the option to bump up to 16mhz if I need to.
3) caught a routing problem on the main board, right side. Missed some I/O >_<
4) added an additional pair of address jumpers. You can now add up to 16 (8 per side) thumb pads.
5) added a 3.5mm connection point to thumb pads for external use.
6) sorted out connectors between main & thumb boards. There are options for permanent & modular connections.
7) shifted over & optimized main boards ISP header. This allows for a pass through connector to be used on the RGB add on, simplifying the connection without using something difficult like ZIF cables.
8) added inline spi header to CPU module for future bluetooth addon.
9) added indicator LEDs to CPU board for power & USB tx/rx (mostly troubleshooting). Can be disabled via a jumper.
10) designed external number pad.
11) designed external 4x5 button array.
12) updated case designs to accommodate pcb changes. Also moved and added case screws for better stability. I have button head & counter sunk screws on order for testing.
13) outlined the addressing table for all boards.
13) outlined the i2c commands for switch polling & LEDs on the sub boards.

That's an amazing amount of work, and there are some real gems in there! The option for external arrays/10keys, foot pedal as mentioned... Can't wait.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 06 August 2013, 11:09:38
Can we pay by mailing you a Cashier's Check? :thumb:
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 06 August 2013, 17:13:40
Can we pay by mailing you a Cashier's Check? :thumb:

Though I've already answered this via PM, I'll reply here as well for anyone else wondering the same thing. Because of the fraud that gets pulled w/ Cashiers checks in Canada, the bank will only release the funds after 30 days. Unfortunately, I can't afford to float the funds for that long. So for now, PayPal will be the only way I can accept payment.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 06 August 2013, 18:30:43
Hey! I just noticed the OP!

Good to know that you're updating it now.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: daerid on Tue, 06 August 2013, 23:07:51
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14295.jpg)

Cannot possibly explain the level of want
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: yasuo on Wed, 07 August 2013, 00:40:43
I hope you make video typing with this keyboard ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Wed, 07 August 2013, 08:06:30
I hope you make video typing with this keyboard ;)

I don't know if AcidFire will, but when I get a beta unit I sure will!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 07 August 2013, 13:04:30
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14295.jpg)

Cannot possibly explain the level of want


Me too, I can't wait to get my next round of boards ordered :D

I hope you make video typing with this keyboard ;)

I don't know if AcidFire will, but when I get a beta unit I sure will!
Of course! That's pretty much a requirement for a kickstarter campaign. On that front, I got an email and it officially opens to Canada on the 9th of september.

On the development side, I've designed the LED array test board, and I've also designed a set of Cherry MX break out boards for testing for the foot switch. Why a Cherry MX switch you ask? Because I came across this on kickstarter: STINKY the Gaming Footboard (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/289858283/stinky-the-gaming-footboard-step-up-your-game?ref=live). I found it particularly interesting that they went w/ the Cherry MX switches instead of why you might expect, like an Omron leaf switch, so I'd like to explore the idea. I think what they've done is fantastic, but the price ($119) for a foot switch is just a bit much for me. Also, this would be running a separate piece of software, and I'd much prefer to keep it all integrated.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Wed, 07 August 2013, 13:14:05
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14295.jpg)

Cannot possibly explain the level of want


Me too, I can't wait to get my next round of boards ordered :D

I hope you make video typing with this keyboard ;)

I don't know if AcidFire will, but when I get a beta unit I sure will!
Of course! That's pretty much a requirement for a kickstarter campaign. On that front, I got an email and it officially opens to Canada on the 9th of september.

On the development side, I've designed the LED array test board, and I've also designed a set of Cherry MX break out boards for testing for the foot switch. Why a Cherry MX switch you ask? Because I came across this on kickstarter: STINKY the Gaming Footboard (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/289858283/stinky-the-gaming-footboard-step-up-your-game?ref=live). I found it particularly interesting that they went w/ the Cherry MX switches instead of why you might expect, like an Omron leaf switch, so I'd like to explore the idea. I think what they've done is fantastic, but the price ($119) for a foot switch is just a bit much for me. Also, this would be running a separate piece of software, and I'd much prefer to keep it all integrated.

You would probably need a very stiff switch for the pedal.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 07 August 2013, 13:23:34
You would think, but the interesting thing about the Stinky is the the top half is supported over the bottom via 4 springs, so instead of the switch carrying your weight, the springs do. This lets you float your feet over them and then activate with very little movement, while most traditional footswitches require you to rest your foot to the side when not in use.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Wed, 07 August 2013, 15:49:17
You would think, but the interesting thing about the Stinky is the the top half is supported over the bottom via 4 springs, so instead of the switch carrying your weight, the springs do. This lets you float your feet over them and then activate with very little movement, while most traditional footswitches require you to rest your foot to the side when not in use.

Ah... ok!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: wiredPANDA on Wed, 07 August 2013, 21:11:57
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14295.jpg)

Cannot possibly explain the level of want


+1 -- this thread continues to deliver.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: daerid on Wed, 07 August 2013, 21:36:19
I want that symmetric numpad. I would give sexual favors for that thing and the acrylic risers
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: wesleyh on Thu, 08 August 2013, 01:55:02
would love to see a video along with mouse interaction, the setup looks pretty big so it seems the arm might be skewed a bit too much to properly work with a mouse. A trackball in the middle would solve that though ;-)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Thu, 08 August 2013, 02:18:55
would love to see a video along with mouse interaction, the setup looks pretty big so it seems the arm might be skewed a bit too much to properly work with a mouse. A trackball in the middle would solve that though ;-)

With the right setup your mouse usage (when not gaming) can approach zero.

Center trackball is pretty nice though from my experience.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: TheQsanity on Thu, 08 August 2013, 04:06:47
This is cool. Seems like an improvement from the ErgoDox. I thought the Dox thumb keys are kinda far away. Does your version put them any closer?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: yasuo on Thu, 08 August 2013, 04:17:38
 ErgoDox put them any closer like Kinesis Adv. not fun
acid seemed to put some distance like maltron it's fun :thumb:
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: TheQsanity on Thu, 08 August 2013, 04:20:37
I can't stand how much more sexy this looks compared to my ErgoDox. Can't stop looking at it either. I'm killing myself!!!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Glod on Thu, 08 August 2013, 04:26:52
This is cool. Seems like an improvement from the ErgoDox. I thought the Dox thumb keys are kinda far away. Does your version put them any closer?

The current case design (from what Acidfire has shared) puts it at the same distance as ErgoDox but with a lower depth/step than the main hand pcb because the ErgoGP has the thumb cluster on a separate board, it can by-design be moved around with an adjustment of the case design or something in the case design that allows it to be movable/adjustable

Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 08 August 2013, 13:04:41
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14295.jpg)
Cannot possibly explain the level of want
+1 -- this thread continues to deliver.
Glad you guys are as excited as I am :D

I want that symmetric numpad. I would give sexual favors for that thing and the acrylic risers
I uh.. prefer cash lol. Also, like the thumb pads, the numeric add-ons now allow for up to 8 of them to be added to the system.

would love to see a video along with mouse interaction, the setup looks pretty big so it seems the arm might be skewed a bit too much to properly work with a mouse. A trackball in the middle would solve that though ;-)
With the right setup your mouse usage (when not gaming) can approach zero.
Center trackball is pretty nice though from my experience.
The current base for the full set up is 514mm. This is a bit wider than a full board, and almost on par with the Logitech G series boards with the extra macro keys. That being said, after the initial launch I'll be looking into trackball/trackpad/trackpoint options for both center mount & the thumbs.

I can't stand how much more sexy this looks compared to my ErgoDox. Can't stop looking at it either. I'm killing myself!!!
When I have some time, I'm looking at making the same colors available for the ErgoDox. the biggest issue right now is fitment, as the thicknesses of acrylic I have on hand are different from what the stock case uses.

This is cool. Seems like an improvement from the ErgoDox. I thought the Dox thumb keys are kinda far away. Does your version put them any closer?
The current case design (from what Acidfire has shared) puts it at the same distance as ErgoDox but with a lower depth/step than the main hand pcb because the ErgoGP has the thumb cluster on a separate board, it can by-design be moved around with an adjustment of the case design or something in the case design that allows it to be movable/adjustable

I checked, and it's actually slightly further away than the ErgoDox are. However, because of the drop to the thumb pads, it puts your thumb in a more natural resting point, and the only thing that I have to lift my fingers to hit is the top two keys on the thumbs. I am however tweaking this option. My biggest headache is the hesitation to switch to something like a ZIF connector + ribbon instead of the 0.1" headers I'm using now, as it removes some of the flexibility/hackability. Conversely, if I switch from a double sided PCB design, I gain a fair bit more space to do things, but this also reduces the cost benefit a double sided board offers. However, moving to a single sided board (not mirrored to the back) frees up a fair bit of space and reduces design headaches to a degree, not to mention reducing the complexity of the firmware since two different sets of pin mappings wouldn't need to be managed. A simple toggle would tell the firmware which address to answer to, and what offset to send the keypresses with. There's also the fact that if there is an error on one side, I'm not forced to replace essentially both boards to fix it. It also simplifies panelizing for PnP manufacturing.

I'm sure you guys can see which way I'm leaning with this, however I would be interested to hear if you have any reasons I should stay with the double sided designs?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Thu, 08 August 2013, 13:07:45
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14295.jpg)

Cannot possibly explain the level of want


+1 -- this thread continues to deliver.

(http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1335/71/1335713252720.jpg)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Glod on Thu, 08 August 2013, 15:17:49
i like where this is going, i just dislike clear acrylic.... flat color or even better matte-texture acrylic i hope would be possible, however talking about the materials this early probably isn't a good idea--probably getting ahead of things.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Thu, 08 August 2013, 15:23:19
i like where this is going, i just dislike clear acrylic.... flat color or even better matte-texture acrylic i hope would be possible, however talking about the materials this early probably isn't a good idea--probably getting ahead of things.

Yeah lol

I do love the black of the OG design though.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 08 August 2013, 18:42:17
- Progress today (so far) -
Started a new version of the main keypad, the left side. This version is not double sided, but features a number of improvements:
1) Relocated USB jack to left side of the board
2) Relocated bridge cable jack to left side of the board
3) Unified header to CPU board, making for a simplier interface
4) Moved row & column breakout headers to bottom of board
5) The LED & switch matrixes now share a common ground. I'll be testing this concept with current boards to ensure it will work consistently.
6) Added pull up resistors to input lines to simply coding & reduce chance of errors when switching from input to output on the ground lines.
7) Added 3 RGB LEDs w/ 12-bit PWM to the top right corner of the board.

Currently considering moving from the ATTINY828 to something a bit more standard, which should reduce the development time substantially as it would no longer require a firmware for the keypads. This would allow for a total of 8 boards, whether they are main, thumb, number or other (like foot switches). This would also allow for 12-bit PWM control of the back lighting as well.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: JPG on Thu, 08 August 2013, 19:36:49
Is there any option to make this design plate mounted?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Thu, 08 August 2013, 19:37:18
Is there any option to make this design plate mounted?

I think it already is.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: JPG on Thu, 08 August 2013, 19:40:35
Is there any option to make this design plate mounted?

I think it already is.

Nice if it is, but the ergodox is not and I did't see any metal piece in the pictures.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Thu, 08 August 2013, 19:56:18
Is there any option to make this design plate mounted?

I think it already is.

Nice if it is, but the ergodox is not and I did't see any metal piece in the pictures.

ErgoDox is.

Plate doesn't need to be metal.

ErgoDox plate is acrylic, and ErgoGP is too I think.

AcidFire?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Thu, 08 August 2013, 19:57:36
Is there any option to make this design plate mounted?

I think it already is.

Nice if it is, but the ergodox is not and I did't see any metal piece in the pictures.
The ErgoDox is plate mount and so is this. It's just an acrylic plate instead of metal.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Thu, 08 August 2013, 20:00:46
Is there any option to make this design plate mounted?

I think it already is.

Nice if it is, but the ergodox is not and I did't see any metal piece in the pictures.
The ErgoDox is plate mount and so is this. It's just an acrylic plate instead of metal.

I thought so.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Thu, 08 August 2013, 20:04:25
Yup both ErgoGP and ErgoDox are plate mounted, where the plate is acrylic and is thus thicker than the metal plates used for mounting switches in keyboards.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: JPG on Thu, 08 August 2013, 20:04:33
Is there any option to make this design plate mounted?

I think it already is.

The ErgoDox is plate mount and so is this. It's just an acrylic plate instead of metal.

I thought so.

Yea, but I am petty sure that I read somewhere that since it's acrylic, it does not offer much support and needs pcb mount switches. But I may bee totally wrong here! But since it's acrylic plate mounted, I suppose it would be possible to replace this acrylic sheet and replace it with a metal plate with the same shape and thickness (and this option to open the switches without desoldering for sure)!
Nice if it is, but the ergodox is not and I did't see any metal piece in the pictures.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Thu, 08 August 2013, 20:12:12
Is there any option to make this design plate mounted?

I think it already is.

The ErgoDox is plate mount and so is this. It's just an acrylic plate instead of metal.

I thought so.

Yea, but I am petty sure that I read somewhere that since it's acrylic, it does not offer much support and needs pcb mount switches. But I may bee totally wrong here! But since it's acrylic plate mounted, I suppose it would be possible to replace this acrylic sheet and replace it with a metal plate with the same shape and thickness (and this option to open the switches without desoldering for sure)!
Nice if it is, but the ergodox is not and I did't see any metal piece in the pictures.

A well designed acrylic plate is very sturdy.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Thu, 08 August 2013, 20:21:13
Is there any option to make this design plate mounted?

I think it already is.

The ErgoDox is plate mount and so is this. It's just an acrylic plate instead of metal.

I thought so.

Yea, but I am petty sure that I read somewhere that since it's acrylic, it does not offer much support and needs pcb mount switches. But I may bee totally wrong here! But since it's acrylic plate mounted, I suppose it would be possible to replace this acrylic sheet and replace it with a metal plate with the same shape and thickness (and this option to open the switches without desoldering for sure)!
Nice if it is, but the ergodox is not and I did't see any metal piece in the pictures.

The plate is to align the switches properly and prevent flex. Acrylic thinner than 3/32 will flex, above that acrylic is as good as metal. Since the design of the ErgoDox is available at ergodox.org, you can get a metal plate cut and it allows you to remove switch top without desoldering the switches. At the completion of the ErgoGP, files for the plate will be made available and again can be got cut.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: JPG on Thu, 08 August 2013, 20:23:21
Is there any option to make this design plate mounted?

I think it already is.

The ErgoDox is plate mount and so is this. It's just an acrylic plate instead of metal.

I thought so.

Yea, but I am petty sure that I read somewhere that since it's acrylic, it does not offer much support and needs pcb mount switches. But I may bee totally wrong here! But since it's acrylic plate mounted, I suppose it would be possible to replace this acrylic sheet and replace it with a metal plate with the same shape and thickness (and this option to open the switches without desoldering for sure)!
Nice if it is, but the ergodox is not and I did't see any metal piece in the pictures.

The plate is to align the switches properly and prevent flex. Acrylic thinner than 3/32 will flex, above that acrylic is as good as metal. Since the design of the ErgoDox is available at ergodox.org, you can get a metal plate cut and it allows you to remove switch top without desoldering the switches. At the completion of the ErgoGP, files for the plate will be made available and again can be got cut.

Well, if the acrylic plate is strong enough, I think it would be even nicer to add the feature to be able to open the switches to it, if this kind of precision if possible with acrylic! Anyone know if it would be possible?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Thu, 08 August 2013, 20:27:50
Is there any option to make this design plate mounted?

I think it already is.

The ErgoDox is plate mount and so is this. It's just an acrylic plate instead of metal.

I thought so.

Yea, but I am petty sure that I read somewhere that since it's acrylic, it does not offer much support and needs pcb mount switches. But I may bee totally wrong here! But since it's acrylic plate mounted, I suppose it would be possible to replace this acrylic sheet and replace it with a metal plate with the same shape and thickness (and this option to open the switches without desoldering for sure)!
Nice if it is, but the ergodox is not and I did't see any metal piece in the pictures.

The plate is to align the switches properly and prevent flex. Acrylic thinner than 3/32 will flex, above that acrylic is as good as metal. Since the design of the ErgoDox is available at ergodox.org, you can get a metal plate cut and it allows you to remove switch top without desoldering the switches. At the completion of the ErgoGP, files for the plate will be made available and again can be got cut.

Well, if the acrylic plate is strong enough, I think it would be even nicer to add the feature to be able to open the switches to it, if this kind of precision if possible with acrylic! Anyone know if it would be possible?

AcidFire has said that you can.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Glod on Thu, 08 August 2013, 20:33:13
Is there any option to make this design plate mounted?

I think it already is.

Nice if it is, but the ergodox is not and I did't see any metal piece in the pictures.

I know there has been answers to this but i wanted to say the ErgoDox PCB design allows plate and PCB mounted switches. Case designs can offer the plate or go without it.

The ErgoDox is plate mounted on the Litster case provided by MassDrop and I want to reiterate what everyone else is saying, It does not flex at all. The down side of the acrylic plate is that the acrylic has to be THICK, in fact it's so thick on the litster case you can't use through-hole diodes.

Well, if the acrylic plate is strong enough, I think it would be even nicer to add the feature to be able to open the switches to it, if this kind of precision if possible with acrylic! Anyone know if it would be possible?

The Litster case for ErgoDox does have this feature so it is very possible

- Progress today (so far) -
Started a new version of the main keypad, the left side. This version is not double sided, but features a number of improvements:
1) Relocated USB jack to left side of the board
2) Relocated bridge cable jack to left side of the board
3) Unified header to CPU board, making for a simplier interface
4) Moved row & column breakout headers to bottom of board
5) The LED & switch matrixes now share a common ground. I'll be testing this concept with current boards to ensure it will work consistently.
6) Added pull up resistors to input lines to simply coding & reduce chance of errors when switching from input to output on the ground lines.
7) Added 3 RGB LEDs w/ 12-bit PWM to the top right corner of the board.

Currently considering moving from the ATTINY828 to something a bit more standard, which should reduce the development time substantially as it would no longer require a firmware for the keypads. This would allow for a total of 8 boards, whether they are main, thumb, number or other (like foot switches). This would also allow for 12-bit PWM control of the back lighting as well.

 :thumb:
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: daerid on Thu, 08 August 2013, 21:42:36
My vote is for a Teensy 3.0. Micro USB FTW
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: TheQsanity on Thu, 08 August 2013, 22:02:58
Smooth clear acrylic is hard to conceal scratches.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Thu, 08 August 2013, 22:33:16
My vote is for a Teensy 3.0. Micro USB FTW
Ew. Why use a broke out controller board when you can have the main controller chip itself smd soldered directly to the pcb? So much nicer.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Glod on Thu, 08 August 2013, 23:01:05
pretty sure teensy is not used with the ergogp
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: daerid on Fri, 09 August 2013, 00:07:04
Ew. Why use a broke out controller board when you can have the main controller chip itself smd soldered directly to the pcb? So much nicer.

Because I dun wanna SM solder the controller to the board. The diodes are enought thank you very much :)

I suggested the teensy because it's a popular board that a many people are familiar and comfortable with already. and the 3.0 because it's much more powerful with lots of space and a micro usb connector, which is much more durable than the mini usb.

Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: daerid on Fri, 09 August 2013, 00:07:43
pretty sure teensy is not used with the ergogp

Currently considering moving from the ATTINY828 to something a bit more standard, which should reduce the development time substantially as it would no longer require a firmware for the keypads. This would allow for a total of 8 boards, whether they are main, thumb, number or other (like foot switches). This would also allow for 12-bit PWM control of the back lighting as well.

That's why I suggested it :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: FiskFisk33 on Fri, 09 August 2013, 00:20:06
Is there any option to make this design plate mounted?

I think it already is.

Nice if it is, but the ergodox is not and I did't see any metal piece in the pictures.

I know there has been answers to this but i wanted to say the ErgoDox PCB design allows plate and PCB mounted switches. Case designs can offer the plate or go without it.

The ErgoDox is plate mounted on the Litster case provided by MassDrop and I want to reiterate what everyone else is saying, It does not flex at all. The down side of the acrylic plate is that the acrylic has to be THICK, in fact it's so thick on the litster case you can't use through-hole diodes.

Well, if the acrylic plate is strong enough, I think it would be even nicer to add the feature to be able to open the switches to it, if this kind of precision if possible with acrylic! Anyone know if it would be possible?

The Litster case for ErgoDox does have this feature so it is very possible

- Progress today (so far) -
Started a new version of the main keypad, the left side. This version is not double sided, but features a number of improvements:
1) Relocated USB jack to left side of the board
2) Relocated bridge cable jack to left side of the board
3) Unified header to CPU board, making for a simplier interface
4) Moved row & column breakout headers to bottom of board
5) The LED & switch matrixes now share a common ground. I'll be testing this concept with current boards to ensure it will work consistently.
6) Added pull up resistors to input lines to simply coding & reduce chance of errors when switching from input to output on the ground lines.
7) Added 3 RGB LEDs w/ 12-bit PWM to the top right corner of the board.

Currently considering moving from the ATTINY828 to something a bit more standard, which should reduce the development time substantially as it would no longer require a firmware for the keypads. This would allow for a total of 8 boards, whether they are main, thumb, number or other (like foot switches). This would also allow for 12-bit PWM control of the back lighting as well.

 :thumb:

Guys, pages 6-7 ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Fri, 09 August 2013, 00:33:04
Ew. Why use a broke out controller board when you can have the main controller chip itself smd soldered directly to the pcb? So much nicer.

Because I dun wanna SM solder the controller to the board. The diodes are enought thank you very much :)

I suggested the teensy because it's a popular board that a many people are familiar and comfortable with already. and the 3.0 because it's much more powerful with lots of space and a micro usb connector, which is much more durable than the mini usb.

Dude, the smd stuff is presoldered. You only have to solder the switches if you get the kit version. Perhaps using the chip the teensy 3 uses, but the whole teensy would be silly.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Glod on Fri, 09 August 2013, 00:49:00
pretty sure teensy is not used with the ergogp

Currently considering moving from the ATTINY828 to something a bit more standard, which should reduce the development time substantially as it would no longer require a firmware for the keypads. This would allow for a total of 8 boards, whether they are main, thumb, number or other (like foot switches). This would also allow for 12-bit PWM control of the back lighting as well.

That's why I suggested it :)

oh, i didn't interpret that as teensy, but i guess yeah it could mean that.

---
i really hope the ErgoGP will still have the option for just the keyboard and base, not interested in all the stuff in the center (numpad...)...at least i dont think i want it....
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 09 August 2013, 01:54:50
So while I haven't completely finished the first board yet, I'm very happy with the results so far, and unless there's a compelling reason to go back to the ATTINY828 or something similar, I'll be sticking to devices that will sit on the i2c bus.

As for the plate, I've used both 3mm & 1.5mm acrylic to test. The 3mm is nice & rigid, but obviously the switches won't snap into that. 1.5mm is fantastic because the switches snap in easily, however it can be fragile. I have a couple ideas for the case I'm going to try tomorrow that I'll post up.

For the kit, everything SMD will be presoldered for you, the only thing you'll need to solder is switches + LEDs.

On the USB port, I'm sorry, but you'll most likely never see a USB micro on one of my projects. I've had way too many issues with them pulling off, and space isn't at a premium to really require a smaller port.

And regarding the controller, I'd much prefer to design something that's meant to fit what I'm doing, then working around someone else's design. This also has the advantage on the business side for me and on the consumer side for you guys, as a custom controller is cheaper in the mark up then adding something like the Teensy.
What I have in mind at this point is an option for users.
1) Arduino compatible - This version would use a bootloader similar to the Leonardo and behave like an arduino based controller. Obviously there are some set backs and caveats, but this is basically the entry level controller for someone who wants to learn to hack their keyboard.
2) HID device (not Arduino compatible) - This bootloader would allow for the keyboard to work at start up, support nkro (hopefully), and would be for users who either have no interest in hacking their firmware, or are advanced enough to go with the straight C.
These would be the same CPU board based on the ATMEGA32u4, just like the Teensy 2.0. Because of the modular nature of the controller, I have it on my list to look at something ARM based down the road, as the processing speed & ram would make implementing the macro recording and whatnot a fair bit easier. Again, due to the nature of the design this would be an easy upgrade for just about anyone. If the kickstarter goes really well, it just end up as a stretch goal.

Regarding the keystation, I consider that to be the deluxe version, and would definitely be an addition to the base kit. The whole idea was, and will always be, modularity to allow you to customize it to your needs.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Fri, 09 August 2013, 07:35:05
Tis man knows what he's doing
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: bueller on Fri, 09 August 2013, 08:04:02
2) HID device (not Arduino compatible) - This bootloader would allow for the keyboard to work at start up, support nkro (hopefully), and would be for users who either have no interest in hacking their firmware, or are advanced enough to go with the straight C.
These would be the same CPU board based on the ATMEGA32u4, just like the Teensy 2.0.

If you're looking for a Teensy alternative I can't recommend the MattairTech (http://www.mattairtech.com/index.php/development-boards/atmega32u4-usb-development-board-arduino-compatible.html) boards highly enough. Really good quality and headers for every pin on the ATMega32u4 including USB for an external connector.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 09 August 2013, 08:32:33
Ew. Why use a broke out controller board when you can have the main controller chip itself smd soldered directly to the pcb? So much nicer.

Because I dun wanna SM solder the controller to the board. The diodes are enought thank you very much :)

I suggested the teensy because it's a popular board that a many people are familiar and comfortable with already. and the 3.0 because it's much more powerful with lots of space and a micro usb connector, which is much more durable than the mini usb.

SMDs are not that bad if you've got a good iron and lots of flux.

There are some excellent tutorials on youtube.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: daerid on Fri, 09 August 2013, 08:40:16
Oh I can solder SMD easily enough. It's just tedious and time consuming.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 09 August 2013, 09:56:51
Oh I can solder SMD easily enough. It's just tedious and time consuming.

Hmm...

What method do you use?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: daerid on Fri, 09 August 2013, 14:24:11
I just use a small tip on my iron. I don't have the money for a hot air solution currently :-(
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 09 August 2013, 14:59:06
I just use a small tip on my iron.

lolwat

So...

You set the part on the the pads, and solder the leads one by one?

Props to you for that kind of patience.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 09 August 2013, 19:12:39
AcidFire, what do you think of the ATmega128RFA1?

MCU and RF transceiver, all in one!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 09 August 2013, 19:57:11
You saw Sparkfun's new product post didn't you :P
I've looked at various options for wireless, and I think for the time being I'll be sticking with the bluetooth, as it is the most complete option to appeal to the largest variety of devices. I do like the idea of something like the ATmega128, but getting into antenna design is such a precise science that for now, it really isn't worth it for me.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 09 August 2013, 20:00:53
You saw Sparkfun's new product post didn't you :P
I've looked at various options for wireless, and I think for the time being I'll be sticking with the bluetooth, as it is the most complete option to appeal to the largest variety of devices. I do like the idea of something like the ATmega128, but getting into antenna design is such a precise science that for now, it really isn't worth it for me.

Good to know that I'm not the only Sparkfunian around here. I had already known about the 128RFA1, but the post reminded me  ;
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Sat, 10 August 2013, 03:34:51
Got the chance to do a new cut with the counter sunk screws that I picked up. I have to say, I definitely think it's an improvement over the socket head screws.
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14300.jpg)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14318.jpg)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Glod on Sat, 10 August 2013, 03:38:33
looks really good
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Sat, 10 August 2013, 07:14:07
Got the chance to do a new cut with the counter sunk screws that I picked up. I have to say, I definitely think it's an improvement over the socket head screws.
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14300.jpg)

Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14318.jpg)


That looks pretty cool.

Where are you getting your caps from?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Glod on Sat, 10 August 2013, 12:07:07
my guess is http://www.keycapsdirect.com/key-capsinventory.php + Massdrop set
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Demonmaker on Sat, 10 August 2013, 18:35:49
Quite simply beautiful.
Definitely interested in this as a product.

on a side note Kickstarter for canada    http://www.kickstarter.com/canada
Creators in Canada can start building projects now!
(You'll be able to launch your project starting September 9th.)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Sat, 10 August 2013, 22:18:47
I just use a small tip on my iron.

lolwat

So...

You set the part on the the pads, and solder the leads one by one?

Props to you for that kind of patience.

I use solder paste, put it down on both of the connection points (I do this for like 20 of them because it is faster)  then use electric tweezers to put the diodes down. Then just touch the solder iron to the diode pins. It will almost instantly bead up and make a solid connection. I have a pretty wide soldering iron and it works find.

My heat gun put out too much air for these diodes so I had to come up with this solution. It is ridiculously fast. On the ergodox it took almost no time once I figured this out. 
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Sun, 11 August 2013, 00:16:18
That looks pretty cool.

Where are you getting your caps from?
my guess is http://www.keycapsdirect.com/key-capsinventory.php + Massdrop set
Actually, with the exception of some blanks I bought from the classifieds, everything has come from SP so far.

I use solder paste, put it down on both of the connection points (I do this for like 20 of them because it is faster)  then use electric tweezers to put the diodes down. Then just touch the solder iron to the diode pins. It will almost instantly bead up and make a solid connection. I have a pretty wide soldering iron and it works find.

My heat gun put out too much air for these diodes so I had to come up with this solution. It is ridiculously fast. On the ergodox it took almost no time once I figured this out. 
Another way to do this is to use an electric skillet, there's lots of guides online as to how to do it.


Quite simply beautiful.
Definitely interested in this as a product.

on a side note Kickstarter for canada    http://www.kickstarter.com/canada
Creators in Canada can start building projects now!
(You'll be able to launch your project starting September 9th.)
I've been signed up since they made the announcement in June. I got an email a couple days ago that the ability to create a project was available, and I've already built the majority of it. Now I just need to get some more photo + video to fill out the story about it and it'll be good to go.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: nubbinator on Sun, 11 August 2013, 00:23:13
Another way to do this is to use an electric skillet, there's lots of guides online as to how to do it.

Ok, that's awesome.  I didn't know about that.  I just found this how to on it (http://wb9ipa.qrpradio.com/smt/smt.htm).  Makes me want to try it.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: wesleyh on Sun, 11 August 2013, 03:52:17
AcidFire, just wondering what you meant by:

"That being said, after the initial launch I'll be looking into trackball/trackpad/trackpoint options for both center mount & the thumbs."

Do you mean after the beta launch, or do you mean this will be an entirely different product? And will people who get v1 be able to upgrade to v2 (with trackball)?


Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Sun, 11 August 2013, 04:07:47
From what I understand the design is very modular, there is no v1 or v2 at this stage. Once Beta is done and the final design completed, he will work on new "modules" which can be attached later on in previous beta version as well unless there is a drastic change (Which is unlikely).
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Demonmaker on Sun, 11 August 2013, 06:11:03
Quite simply beautiful.
Definitely interested in this as a product.

on a side note Kickstarter for canada    http://www.kickstarter.com/canada
Creators in Canada can start building projects now!
(You'll be able to launch your project starting September 9th.)
I've been signed up since they made the announcement in June. I got an email a couple days ago that the ability to create a project was available, and I've already built the majority of it. Now I just need to get some more photo + video to fill out the story about it and it'll be good to go.

Thats great news, I'll be waiting with anticipation, thank you for the fast update.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: listokei on Sun, 11 August 2013, 09:35:39
Looks great!!!
 Good job!!!!!!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Sun, 11 August 2013, 12:26:32
AcidFire, just wondering what you meant by:

"That being said, after the initial launch I'll be looking into trackball/trackpad/trackpoint options for both center mount & the thumbs."

Do you mean after the beta launch, or do you mean this will be an entirely different product? And will people who get v1 be able to upgrade to v2 (with trackball)?
From what I understand the design is very modular, there is no v1 or v2 at this stage. Once Beta is done and the final design completed, he will work on new "modules" which can be attached later on in previous beta version as well unless there is a drastic change (Which is unlikely).
mohitgarg nailed it. The design is very modular, for exactly this reason. I hate having to rebuy something completely just to get a new feature, or a part that I need. I blame growing up with Lego for this addiction to getting exactly what I want lol.

Thats great news, I'll be waiting with anticipation, thank you for the fast update.
No problem, and trust me, it's killing me to be patient as posible to get everything right, instead of rushing to get it up.

Looks great!!!
 Good job!!!!!!
Thanks :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: JPG on Sun, 11 August 2013, 12:30:19
Hey I got 2 questions here:

1. The ergodox and the ergogp seems to both have more keys than really necessary. The question is aimed to all of you using either of these, do you think that many keys are unnecessary or do most of you think they are either usefull or not in the way anyway?

2. I know it would be a challenge somewhat, but anyone thought about integration a small trackball (like less than an inch wide) near or part of the thumb cluster? Adding a trackball directly accessible to the thumb looks awesome in my mind! With it, it would remove all need to move the hands at all!

I don't have an ergodox and I am still not 100% sure to make the move yet, but I am more and more appealed to such a thing so I wanted some input from those using it on a regular basis about these 2 things!

Thx for your comment  :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: daerid on Sun, 11 August 2013, 12:51:02
I have quite a few unused keys on my ErgoDox, but they're not in the way and I'd rather have them than not.

Just wish media keys worked in windows....
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: JPG on Sun, 11 August 2013, 17:53:57
I have quite a few unused keys on my ErgoDox, but they're not in the way and I'd rather have them than not.

Just wish media keys worked in windows....

They don't? My Filco has media keys and they work, there must be a way to send the right signal/command since the keyboard is programmable.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Sun, 11 August 2013, 18:43:38
Hey I got 2 questions here:

1. The ergodox and the ergogp seems to both have more keys than really necessary. The question is aimed to all of you using either of these, do you think that many keys are unnecessary or do most of you think they are either usefull or not in the way anyway?

2. I know it would be a challenge somewhat, but anyone thought about integration a small trackball (like less than an inch wide) near or part of the thumb cluster? Adding a trackball directly accessible to the thumb looks awesome in my mind! With it, it would remove all need to move the hands at all!

I don't have an ergodox and I am still not 100% sure to make the move yet, but I am more and more appealed to such a thing so I wanted some input from those using it on a regular basis about these 2 things!

Thx for your comment  :D

1. Unfortunately, I can only speak to what I have planned, as opposed to experience with it. As a programmer, I see so much extra functionality with the extra keys, especially with the ability to expand when I need more for macros, special functions, etc etc.

2. As I've mentioned a few times already, I agree with this 100% and it'll be one of the first expansions I implement once the core project is ready.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: JPG on Sun, 11 August 2013, 19:24:06
Hey I got 2 questions here:

1. The ergodox and the ergogp seems to both have more keys than really necessary. The question is aimed to all of you using either of these, do you think that many keys are unnecessary or do most of you think they are either usefull or not in the way anyway?

2. I know it would be a challenge somewhat, but anyone thought about integration a small trackball (like less than an inch wide) near or part of the thumb cluster? Adding a trackball directly accessible to the thumb looks awesome in my mind! With it, it would remove all need to move the hands at all!

I don't have an ergodox and I am still not 100% sure to make the move yet, but I am more and more appealed to such a thing so I wanted some input from those using it on a regular basis about these 2 things!

Thx for your comment  :D

1. Unfortunately, I can only speak to what I have planned, as opposed to experience with it. As a programmer, I see so much extra functionality with the extra keys, especially with the ability to expand when I need more for macros, special functions, etc etc.

2. As I've mentioned a few times already, I agree with this 100% and it'll be one of the first expansions I implement once the core project is ready.

Thx for the info, and sry, haven't read all 18 pages, but nice to hear!

 :thumb:
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 12 August 2013, 16:08:19
So this is the design change I'm looking at for the thumb, thoughts?
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/thumbpad-change.png)
The red is the change to a 45 degree angle, and bringing it closer into the body.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Mon, 12 August 2013, 16:11:51
So this is the design change I'm looking at for the thumb, thoughts?
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/thumbpad-change.png)

The red is the change to a 45 degree angle, and bringing it closer into the body.

I dunno...

I don't think that that would be as comfortable.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: linziyi on Mon, 12 August 2013, 16:31:14
If you are referring to the red outlined position, I think most people would have difficulty reaching the bottom keys.....
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Mon, 12 August 2013, 16:33:49
If you are referring to the red outlined position, I think most people would have difficulty reaching the bottom keys.....

I agree.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Demonmaker on Mon, 12 August 2013, 16:36:26
Perhaps both, using a ribbon / cable connecting to the thumb pad part to the main section, have it adjustable instead of set, just a thought.  I'm not tech minded enough to know if thats a viable solution.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: daerid on Mon, 12 August 2013, 16:51:05
I have quite a few unused keys on my ErgoDox, but they're not in the way and I'd rather have them than not.

Just wish media keys worked in windows....

They don't? My Filco has media keys and they work, there must be a way to send the right signal/command since the keyboard is programmable.

Currently, no. Not sure why, haven't delved into the source far enough.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Mon, 12 August 2013, 16:55:56
I think the red would be better but I have long hands and that puts my thumbs farther down. Likely something in the middle is the best.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Mon, 12 August 2013, 16:58:57
I have quite a few unused keys on my ErgoDox, but they're not in the way and I'd rather have them than not.

Just wish media keys worked in windows....

They don't? My Filco has media keys and they work, there must be a way to send the right signal/command since the keyboard is programmable.

Currently, no. Not sure why, haven't delved into the source far enough.

I don't get it.

You send 0x80 for volume up, 0x81 for volume down, ect,.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: daerid on Mon, 12 August 2013, 17:36:00
I don't get it.

You send 0x80 for volume up, 0x81 for volume down, ect,.

Neither do I. It's a mystereeeeeeee
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 12 August 2013, 17:59:19
Well I've heard the feed back, and I'm definitely going to play with it a bit more. I had been looking at an adjustable design, but (for now) I don't think it'll work without making it thicker, which is something I don't want to do.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: vatin on Mon, 12 August 2013, 21:22:07
So this is the design change I'm looking at for the thumb, thoughts?
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/thumbpad-change.png)

The red is the change to a 45 degree angle, and bringing it closer into the body.

It seemed you need to twist your wrist more to follow the pitch.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Loligagger on Mon, 12 August 2013, 22:12:46
Agreed that the original angle for the thumb cluster seems more natural.

Also, any possibility for the shorthand case (like the first case prototype) as an option for the final board?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: anotherjunkie on Tue, 13 August 2013, 14:35:39
So, I know I'm a day late, but in terms of the design change I have to agree with linziyi -- the change to the red outline seems as though it will make the red keys less reachable. I know that for me they would be  downright painful. It puts the smaller keys in a position that makes that joint probe to roll when you hit them with your thumb.

As for the additional keys, I would much rather have them than not. I love to be able to program macros to override those "extra" keys, whether those macros are OS or program specific. Again, this is largely related to my own needs and my previous inability to stretch to hit key-combos on my own, but so long as the extra keys are out of the way of my normal typing, I see having them included as a bonus feature of the keyboard -- I don't have to take away functionality from existing keys that I DO use to assign my macros, because Ithese extras were included.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Tue, 13 August 2013, 14:40:32
Just my 2 cents is people really need to look at the inset with this design and feel if they like it. It is much different than a flat design and we should probably make a paper mockup so people can see which they like. Which ever option is right I think it will surprise you how different it feels when it is angled and when the keys are inset like the ergoGP does.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 13 August 2013, 14:52:04
Just my 2 cents is people really need to look at the inset with this design and feel if they like it. It is much different than a flat design and we should probably make a paper mockup so people can see which they like. Which ever option is right I think it will surprise you how different it feels when it is angled and when the keys are inset like the ergoGP does.

Blue nailed it. The inset definitely alters how your thumb sits, hence why I've been reviewing the design. I'm working on a splinter of that design that is a balance between where it is now, and where the red box was. Unfortunately I had to deal w/ a rogue server admin last night for a group that I play online with and didn't get the chance to laser anything, but I will be doing it all tonight. What I may do is include a couple different options in the beta kit, and see how you guys like them.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 13 August 2013, 15:01:37
Also, I forgot to ask, for those of you interested in hacking the hardware side, should I keep the pin headers that break out the LED & switch matrices?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Tue, 13 August 2013, 15:15:43
Also, I forgot to ask, for those of you interested in hacking the hardware side, should I keep the pin headers that break out the LED & switch matrices?

Maybe I'm missing something but why would you remove them?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 13 August 2013, 15:31:13
Mainly because they're there from a hackibility side, they aren't required for the normal operation of the board and they require extra routing and what not. I'm not saying they're a bad thing, more just trying to gauge interest.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Tue, 13 August 2013, 15:39:43
I for one really want them as backlighting (and writing custom code for it) was one of the great interests of mine. I didn't know you were thinking about cutting it. :(

We should still be able to add the RGb board later right as it will be a separate board right?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Tue, 13 August 2013, 16:38:44
Keep them.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 13 August 2013, 20:29:35
No no no, I'm not removing the backlighting, just the breakout headers that would allow you to use external electronics to read the switches & control the LEDs.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Tue, 13 August 2013, 20:35:19
No no no, I'm not removing the backlighting, just the breakout headers that would allow you to use external electronics to read the switches & control the LEDs.

Ahhh. I figured I was missing something because I didn't think you would remove that. I didn't know you were planning on doing that. It actually might get the Arduino community on board(Which is pretty darn big these days for your KS if you could show that you could easily control the LEDs using an Ardunio. It if isn't lots of work I think it would really open up a bigger market I think. I think the Ardunio community would probably come up with some insaine ideas for what todo with it.

In fact my fully addressable LED kinses contoured board was made entirely with an ardunio (colordunio).
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 13 August 2013, 20:37:32
No no no, I'm not removing the backlighting, just the breakout headers that would allow you to use external electronics to read the switches & control the LEDs.

What are the disadvantages of keeping them?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 13 August 2013, 22:22:08
Ahhh. I figured I was missing something because I didn't think you would remove that. I didn't know you were planning on doing that. It actually might get the Arduino community on board(Which is pretty darn big these days for your KS if you could show that you could easily control the LEDs using an Ardunio. It if isn't lots of work I think it would really open up a bigger market I think. I think the Ardunio community would probably come up with some insaine ideas for what todo with it.

In fact my fully addressable LED kinses contoured board was made entirely with an ardunio (colordunio).
Part of the reason I had broken them out was to work around the attiny828 I was planning to use, but now with the change to a set of standard controllers, PCA9555 for the keys, PCA9685 for the LEDs, the board can be easily accessed by an any arduino with the I2C available.

What are the disadvantages of keeping them?
Space & routing. They were convenient to use instead of just using vias, and there was space for them. Because of the density at the top of the board, and the fact that it's no longer a double sided design, it's harder to justify/work them in now.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 14 August 2013, 04:28:55
So, I thought I throw together a little something based on daerid's suggestion of a 70% style board:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14319.jpg)
Obviously since I'm still working out my controller and code, it's none functional, however it's actually comfortable to lay my hands on in a proper typing position. The best part is, the only thing that I need to add is a PCB design for the central keys. I've added it to the list to go in with my next set of proto boards. What I may do is make a limited number available as part of the Beta, as I see this being a potential offshoot/option for those already interested in what my modules will provide.

I also did a quick style test for the 5 RGB leds on the main boards:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14327.jpg)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14324.jpg)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14329.jpg)
These are by no means a final design, but more of a visual test to see how they look. Personally, I really like them, and the nature of their design means it would be quite simple to offer other styles as well.

Finally, my order from SP showed up, and among other things, included some nice frosted keycaps:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14332.jpg)
I'll be doing some tests this weekend w/ the Vinyl Dye paints, as well as some LED patterns to see how the clear ones diffuse/spread the light.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Wed, 14 August 2013, 05:32:07
Oh my good, I'm drooling at the pics.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Wed, 14 August 2013, 08:06:52
So, I thought I throw together a little something based on daerid's suggestion of a 70% style board:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14319.jpg)


I need.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: agodinhost on Wed, 14 August 2013, 08:15:35
So, I thought I throw together a little something based on daerid's suggestion of a 70% style board:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14319.jpg)

Gosh ...
I want this one!
Congrats man, awesome work!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Wed, 14 August 2013, 08:34:17
I actually love your 70% board! I was actually thinking about working on one like this to take when I need to travel. Great work!

The RGB LED panels/90% acrilic looks awesome! Can't wait to do some fun stuff with those LEDs.

I like those keycaps. I hope they diffuse better than the clear ones I tested with. I'm wondering if SP can make it so less light passes through or something else to help diffuse the light more.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Wed, 14 August 2013, 10:05:35
Need. 70%.

Need. ErgoGP.

NO.Money.:(
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: daerid on Wed, 14 August 2013, 10:31:34
My god Acidfire, I want to take you out for dinner and beers. I would kill for that. Lemme get in on the beta test PRRREEEEAAAASSSEEEE
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: daerid on Wed, 14 August 2013, 10:48:55
Also (forgive me if it's been brought up before), but have you seen hasu's TMK firmware (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41989.msg841759#msg841759)? It's really, really easy to read and modify, and could possibly be a great base for your Ergo* firmwares :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 14 August 2013, 12:57:30
I need.
My god Acidfire, I want to take you out for dinner and beers. I would kill for that. Lemme get in on the beta test PRRREEEEAAAASSSEEEE
I actually love your 70% board! I was actually thinking about working on one like this to take when I need to travel. Great work!
Need. 70%.

Need. ErgoGP.

NO.Money.:(
Oh my good, I'm drooling at the pics.
Gosh ...
I want this one!
Congrats man, awesome work!
Glad you guys like it :D I have to admit, I was a bit skeptical about the layout, but it actually feels very familiar when I put my hands on it, as opposed to the Full set up. I think it could make a great in between board, allowing you to adjust to the matrix layout without having to relearn your posture at the same time. Then, when you're up to speed, you can make the move to the split boards with much less frustration (I would hope.) I'll be pricing it out after I've finished the mid board PCB, but I expect it to come in 20-40 less than the split kit.

The RGB LED panels/90% acrilic looks awesome! Can't wait to do some fun stuff with those LEDs.

I like those keycaps. I hope they diffuse better than the clear ones I tested with. I'm wondering if SP can make it so less light passes through or something else to help diffuse the light more.
Me too! I'm also looking forward to seeing what other people can pull off with them. Being a 12-bit PWM, it should make for some very smooth color transitions as well.

Also (forgive me if it's been brought up before), but have you seen hasu's TMK firmware (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41989.msg841759#msg841759)? It's really, really easy to read and modify, and could possibly be a great base for your Ergo* firmwares :)
Yup, hasu & ben's firmwares have both been sent my way. While I may end up borrowing some parts (with appropriate attribution of course), particularly the USB management, the way my board functions is a bit different than either set up, and will end up being a custom firmware.

On the note of firmware, I had a bit of inspiration on the way into work this morning. Because of the I/O expander I'm using, you can attach up to 8 devices to the main controller. I realized however, that the biggest boards that will be attached would be the main boards, which currently have 4 I/O on the expander free. What that can give me is a 4bit address, and allowing up to 16 different board types to be automatically recognized. This means that you could have up to 8 of the same board design attached without any custom rewrite of the firmware to match your layout. You plug everything in, and the device figures out automatically how to talk to them.

Now, on the main board, obviously this means that you can only have the board type address, meaning there's little you can do to vary it. However, boards like the thumb clusters have additional I/O free, meaning that not only can the controller recognize that it's a thumb board, but also what layout that thumbboard has :D So while 16 individual devices may not seem like a lot, the ability to do sub addresses greatly expands the variety I can offer while very little work on the firmware size.

Right now, this is what I have mapped out.
0000 - Left main keypad - No variation in layout, but up to 3 additional keys can be added to matrix
1000 - Right main keypad - No variation in layout, but up to 3 additional keys can be added to matrix
0001 - Left thumb keypad - Additional I/O can provide up to 32-64 variations (5 or 6bit addresses)
1001 - Right thumb keypad - Additional I/O can provide up to 32-64 variations (5 or 6bit addresses)
0010 - 4x5 keypad - Additional I/O can provide up to 32-64 variations (5 or 6bit addresses)
0011 - 70% middle cluster keypad - Additional I/O can provide up to 32-64 variations (5 or 6bit addresses)

There will of course, be some limitation do to the memory constraints of the 32u4, but I believe the upgradable CPU will let me expand into something ARM based and further improve on the capabilities & capacity.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: daerid on Wed, 14 August 2013, 13:48:24
Genius. This is seriously turning out to be the One Ring of DIY keyboards.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Wed, 14 August 2013, 14:05:04
How about an XMOS MCU? That would allow for truly perfect modular-ness.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 14 August 2013, 15:47:11
Genius. This is seriously turning out to be the One Ring of DIY keyboards.
I may have to do a custom top with some Elvish scripting on it ;)
How about an XMOS MCU? That would allow for truly perfect modular-ness.
TBH I've never seen an XMOS before, I'd have to look into it. I'm angling towards something ARM based right now because like the Arduino, ARM based projects are popping up more and more, and I want for me and users of my stuff to be able to tap into that community for support.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Wed, 14 August 2013, 15:50:13
Genius. This is seriously turning out to be the One Ring of DIY keyboards.
I may have to do a custom top with some Elvish scripting on it ;)
How about an XMOS MCU? That would allow for truly perfect modular-ness.
TBH I've never seen an XMOS before, I'd have to look into it. I'm angling towards something ARM based right now because like the Arduino, ARM based projects are popping up more and more, and I want for me and users of my stuff to be able to tap into that community for support.

True. XMOS has a very small community.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: xman on Wed, 14 August 2013, 16:02:50
So this is the design change I'm looking at for the thumb, thoughts?
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/thumbpad-change.png)

The red is the change to a 45 degree angle, and bringing it closer into the body.

With the thumb clusters having their own PCBs...
 I naturally thought that any adjustments
(like rotation & depth of the thumb clusters)
 was going to be possible.

Maybe I was just hoping... because
for my wife, using her thumbs is a very painful experience.
     I was hoping that the discrete thumb cluster PCBs
would allow the adjustability to help her with that.

?Is there any chance at all of
   personalized adjustability with the thumb clusters??

Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Glod on Wed, 14 August 2013, 16:10:08
So, I thought I throw together a little something based on daerid's suggestion of a 70% style board:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14319.jpg)

[...]

not to say the rest of your updates arent amazing but

i almost fell out of my chair when i saw this. it is my dream travel board, i can't imagine how daerid is feeling after seeing that.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Wed, 14 August 2013, 16:14:15
So, I thought I throw together a little something based on daerid's suggestion of a 70% style board:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14319.jpg)

[...]

not to say the rest of your updates arent amazing but

i almost fell out of my chair when i saw this. it is my dream travel board, i can't imagine how daerid is feeling after seeing that.

That's kind of mild.

I almost convinced myself to buy a plane ticket up to Canada to try it.

I had a similar reaction when I saw this:

(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14230.jpg)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Wed, 14 August 2013, 16:28:50
WOAH!

I was just looking at the source files for the keystation/bigboy...

*mind blown*

Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 14 August 2013, 16:30:13
not to say the rest of your updates arent amazing but

i almost fell out of my chair when i saw this. it is my dream travel board, i can't imagine how daerid is feeling after seeing that.

That's kind of mild.

I almost convinced myself to buy a plane ticket up to Canada to try it.
Does it make it worse when I tell you that all of the features I have planned for the split board, including bluetooth (though possibly w/ reduced battery life) will all work on the travel size as well? :D

With the thumb clusters having their own PCBs...
 I naturally thought that any adjustments
(like rotation & depth of the thumb clusters)
 was going to be possible.

Maybe I was just hoping... because
for my wife, using her thumbs is a very painful experience.
     I was hoping that the discrete thumb cluster PCBs
would allow the adjustability to help her with that.

?Is there any chance at all of
   personalized adjustability with the thumb clusters??
Absolutely! I've already had several people contact me both here and externally about being able to tweak the layout to accommodate their hands or a disability. I would absolutely be happy to provide a tweaked version for someone. Because I still need to eat and those types of adjustment take time, I would probably have to charge for it, but I would do my best to make it an affordable option. the other part of this as well is that I need to figure out the best way for someone to show me how they need it adjusted, so there will have to be some R&D put into that as well. It won't be something I can offer right away, but is definitely something I hope I can follow up on quickly.

Also, since I don't want to seem like I've glossed over a point, let me show you guys what I was talking about the broken out headers:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/pcb-comparison.png)
Top
the original design w/ attiny828. Because the board was double sided, I needed to bring the matrices to both sides of the board. Normally, I would do this with vias. For those of you not familar with PCB design, vias are the same thing as headers, a hole through the board that is plated to allow connectivity between the sides. The difference between headers & vias is size, with headers needing to be large enough to allow pins or whatever to be placed inside and soldered in place. Vias however can be much smaller, as all they are doing is passing current. The headers are clearly labelled to make my life easier, and this was how I was able to test my boards without the onboard controller working yet.

Bottom
This is the current version of the PCB I'm working on. As you can see, I've made some major revisions to the layout at the top of the board, and it ends up denser than the previous versions. Switching to a non reversible board has had it's advantages, giving me room to include two TRRS jacks for expandability, move the USB to the left side of the board so it's a bit more out of the way, and of course the space to add 5 RGB LEDs. There is some space at the bottom of the board, however there may not be a way to route all the columns in a usable format. there is a way around this, where instead of a block of 7 pins being the column group for either the buttons or LEDs, I do a block of 14 pins, with switch & LED columns alternating. I'll be giving this some more thought, but as always, would love to hear from those of you interested in messing with the hardware.

Alternatively, I could also offer the PCBs without any of the routing/components at the top, and it basically becomes just a regular keypad.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Wed, 14 August 2013, 16:31:30
Please kill me already.

Can I ignore this thread so it doesn't show up anywhere? :P
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 14 August 2013, 16:57:03
By request:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/IMG_7803.jpg)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Wed, 14 August 2013, 17:01:51
By request:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/IMG_7803.jpg)


Thanks, but that's not a video.


JK.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: daerid on Wed, 14 August 2013, 17:03:51

not to say the rest of your updates arent amazing but

i almost fell out of my chair when i saw this. it is my dream travel board, i can't imagine how daerid is feeling after seeing that.

Indescribable. Almost.... aroused. I can't remember the last time I lusted this hard after a piece of hardware (of any kind, not just keyboards)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 14 August 2013, 17:33:08
Thanks, but that's not a video.


JK.
Well you'd pretty much just see me doing movie style typing, since that set up doesn't have any kind of controller on board yet :P When I get the next round of boards done, I will be posting many videos when it's up and running.


not to say the rest of your updates arent amazing but

i almost fell out of my chair when i saw this. it is my dream travel board, i can't imagine how daerid is feeling after seeing that.

Indescribable. Almost.... aroused. I can't remember the last time I lusted this hard after a piece of hardware (of any kind, not just keyboards)
I uh, I'm glad you like it lol.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: daerid on Wed, 14 August 2013, 17:37:02
Not trying to make things weird.... But damn that a sexy board
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: fisofo on Wed, 14 August 2013, 17:44:38
This whole project is really exciting! My first ErgoDox arrives next week (so pumped!), and I had planned to invest in getting another one once I am up to speed so I don't have to carry it back and forth from the office, but I think I'll be waiting for this one instead :D

Love all of the updates AcidFire! The PCB diagrams bring back fond memories from college labs. Well, mostly fond. ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: anotherjunkie on Wed, 14 August 2013, 18:22:08
Does it make it worse when I tell you that all of the features I have planned for the split board, including bluetooth (though possibly w/ reduced battery life) will all work on the travel size as well? :D

Stunner. I'd have to pick up one of these as well... I was thinking about grabbing the mouse coming off of the GP the other day, vs a 70% board, and there can't be much difference in arm movement given the fact that your fingers are already at the edge of the board. An additional rotation, sure, but not TOO much additional movement. Thats one of the reasons I decided to go for this, but you can't beat having another travel board...
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: insilica on Thu, 15 August 2013, 03:10:38
.... Mannn I really hope this will be ready in some shape or form before the round 4 ergodox cutoff.

:D.

The 70% board looks like a winner for me, otherwise I will bite with the split layout.

Stalking this thread with anticipation :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Thu, 15 August 2013, 09:25:00
I printed a version of the 70%, it wasn't like I hoped. Too much strain on the wrists, it needs an angle.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: wiredPANDA on Thu, 15 August 2013, 09:35:55
By request:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/IMG_7803.jpg)


Thanks, Acid.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: vatin on Thu, 15 August 2013, 10:22:52
I'm taking split ergo any day over everything else.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: insilica on Thu, 15 August 2013, 10:45:36
I'm taking split ergo any day over everything else.

Why not both :D.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Thu, 15 August 2013, 12:40:49
you sir have far too many atmegas lol

(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/IMG_7550.JPG)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Demonmaker on Thu, 15 August 2013, 15:44:01
Just had to go back a few pages to drool over the ergoGP again, cant wait for the 9th and the kickstarter if everything goes to plan.
Id have both, but the wife holds the purse strings and I'd be in the doghouse.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 15 August 2013, 19:20:49
you sir have far too many atmegas lol

Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/IMG_7550.JPG)

Have you been snooping? I don't remember posting that one :P

I'm taking split ergo any day over everything else.

Why not both :D.
Exactly ;)

Just had to go back a few pages to drool over the ergoGP again, cant wait for the 9th and the kickstarter if everything goes to plan.
Id have both, but the wife holds the purse strings and I'd be in the doghouse.
I'm considering offering a level on the Kickstarter that could include both for a reduced price if that helps ;)
This definitely won't be ready for September 9th unfortunately, but I'm targeting for the end of september.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Thu, 15 August 2013, 19:29:32
you sir have far too many atmegas lol

Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/IMG_7550.JPG)

Have you been snooping? I don't remember posting that one :P

I have my ways.

I really like the way that you designed the bigboy case.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: wesleyh on Fri, 16 August 2013, 01:24:03
So the timeframe of the september 9th kickstarter is for a beta kit, right?

If so, then when can we expect the actual release version?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 16 August 2013, 02:06:00
So the timeframe of the september 9th kickstarter is for a beta kit, right?

If so, then when can we expect the actual release version?

No, right now with the major overhaul of the controllers on the boards, I have to order a set of test boards first. I would never send out a prototype board I hadn't tested first. This time however, I'll be choosing a much faster delivery service. Right now, I'm aiming to start the Kickstarter at the beginning of October, running for 30 days. I really want to offer the first batch of 100 with a delivery date for the beginning of Christmas.
As for the beta, that will go up the second I know the next round of boards works the way I expect it to.

On a separate note, I got my slightly delayed birthday gift from my girl today:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14357.jpg)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14361.jpg)

Gotta say, LOVE the new set up:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14365.jpg)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14371.jpg)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14377.jpg)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14352.jpg)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: sordna on Fri, 16 August 2013, 02:09:49
I'll be putting the site together over the weekend for where you guys can order, as I'll be testing my boards over the next couple of days and should hopefully be readying the next batch for order by tuesday. After that it'll come down to whether I feel I need to do another board revision before ordering the prototype batch, or if I should just go for it. Either way, I'll have a firm timeline for Tuesday (yay long weekend!).
AcidFire I'm VERY late to this thread, but thoroughly impressed... do you have a website already? What is it ?

BTW it would be great if your design allows for a piezo buzzer for click sounds. Used to this from Kinesis Advantage keyboards, I added one (sparkfun COM-07950) to my Ergodox and modified the firmware to drive it... The audible feedback helps prevent bottoming out with linear switches like red cherries.

Audio sample here:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=42231.0;attach=20386
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Fri, 16 August 2013, 02:10:20
Like the older pics weren't juicy enough.

So you want me to kill you?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Larken on Fri, 16 August 2013, 02:17:15
gotta agree with MOZ. This is torture!!!!

p.s. very nice lighting setup. :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 16 August 2013, 02:22:38
I'll be putting the site together over the weekend for where you guys can order, as I'll be testing my boards over the next couple of days and should hopefully be readying the next batch for order by tuesday. After that it'll come down to whether I feel I need to do another board revision before ordering the prototype batch, or if I should just go for it. Either way, I'll have a firm timeline for Tuesday (yay long weekend!).
AcidFire I'm VERY late to this thread, but thoroughly impressed... do you have a website already? What is it ?

BTW it would be great if your design allows for a piezo buzzer for click sounds. Used to this from Kinesis Advantage keyboards, I added one (sparkfun COM-07950) to my Ergodox and modified the firmware to drive it... The audible feedback helps prevent bottoming out with linear switches like red cherries.

Audio sample here:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=42231.0;attach=20386
Actually, that was something I marked as a standard feature to the CPU board, but forgot to add it to the last version of the board. The new version will include it :D

As for the website, I have something I've been trying to work on but I've been more focused on what I'm doing for the hardware of the project. Once I've got the parts ordered for the beta and I'm waiting for them to come in, I'm going to take a couple of days and finish the website.

Like the older pics weren't juicy enough.

So you want me to kill you?
But if you kill me now, how will I finish the project?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Fri, 16 August 2013, 02:24:13
Yes, but the torture would stop.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 16 August 2013, 02:31:23
Yes, but the torture would stop.
True, but that's a bit like having your favorite show cancelled after it ends on a cliffhanger. Sure you won't be tortured waiting for the next episode, but you'll never get any closure either ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Fri, 16 August 2013, 02:33:42
Yes, but the torture would stop.
True, but that's a bit like having your favorite show cancelled after it ends on a cliffhanger. Sure you won't be tortured waiting for the next episode, but you'll never get any closure either ;)

Fine you win, give me the closure ASAP!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: insilica on Fri, 16 August 2013, 06:57:43
Apologies if this has been discussed already but since the project is moving at such a pace ....

Has anyone considered a keyboard cover for the ergoGP? :D

Noting extravagant, maybe just a filco style plastic cover for the 70% or two pieces for the split layout? Shouldn't add too much more to the cost :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Fri, 16 August 2013, 07:26:42
Apologies if this has been discussed already but since the project is moving at such a pace ....

Has anyone considered a keyboard cover for the ergoGP? :D

Noting extravagant, maybe just a filco style plastic cover for the 70% or two pieces for the split layout? Shouldn't add too much more to the cost :D

I made this: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45720.0
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: insilica on Fri, 16 August 2013, 07:35:05
Apologies if this has been discussed already but since the project is moving at such a pace ....

Has anyone considered a keyboard cover for the ergoGP? :D

Noting extravagant, maybe just a filco style plastic cover for the 70% or two pieces for the split layout? Shouldn't add too much more to the cost :D

I made this: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45720.0

oooo. very nice
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Fri, 16 August 2013, 07:44:26
Apologies if this has been discussed already but since the project is moving at such a pace ....

Has anyone considered a keyboard cover for the ergoGP? :D

Noting extravagant, maybe just a filco style plastic cover for the 70% or two pieces for the split layout? Shouldn't add too much more to the cost :D

I made this: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45720.0

oooo. very nice

Thanks. Here in India, dust is a major plague and covers are essential
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: SpAmRaY on Fri, 16 August 2013, 07:49:13
Apologies if this has been discussed already but since the project is moving at such a pace ....

Has anyone considered a keyboard cover for the ergoGP? :D

Noting extravagant, maybe just a filco style plastic cover for the 70% or two pieces for the split layout? Shouldn't add too much more to the cost :D

I made this: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45720.0

oooo. very nice

Thanks. Here in India, dust is a major plague and covers are essential

My office is very dusty. I cover my keyboard every night.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: TheQsanity on Fri, 16 August 2013, 07:55:35
Holy Crap this is moving along so quickly!

Do you have access to a CNC or something? (if youve stated it, thread is tl;dr)(but will have to look through them all)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: insilica on Fri, 16 August 2013, 08:04:04
Apologies if this has been discussed already but since the project is moving at such a pace ....

Has anyone considered a keyboard cover for the ergoGP? :D

Noting extravagant, maybe just a filco style plastic cover for the 70% or two pieces for the split layout? Shouldn't add too much more to the cost :D

I made this: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45720.0

oooo. very nice

Thanks. Here in India, dust is a major plague and covers are essential

My office is very dusty. I cover my keyboard every night.

My office not as dusty, though I always cover my keyboards. For my Topre boards I'm coping with acetates, bent on the long edges to arch over my RF and 660C... and the Filco just came with a dust cover :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 16 August 2013, 08:17:19
Holy Crap this is moving along so quickly!

Do you have access to a CNC or something? (if youve stated it, thread is tl;dr)(but will have to look through them all)

He has several laser cutters and an unlimited supply of 1.5mm acrylic.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Demonmaker on Fri, 16 August 2013, 08:59:39
Holy Crap this is moving along so quickly!

Do you have access to a CNC or something? (if youve stated it, thread is tl;dr)(but will have to look through them all)

He has several laser cutters and an unlimited supply of 1.5mm acrylic.

So jealous right now, I could cry  :'(   wonderfull new pictures as well, thanks for rubbing it in even more   :))
Adding a cover for the split ergo would be fantastic too, as an added extra for cost.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: thadood on Fri, 16 August 2013, 10:46:00
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14352.jpg)


Oh my glob I want this. This would be a perfect notebook kb and would pair with my forth-coming Ergodoxen!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 16 August 2013, 13:11:31
Holy Crap this is moving along so quickly!

Do you have access to a CNC or something? (if youve stated it, thread is tl;dr)(but will have to look through them all)

He has several laser cutters and an unlimited supply of 1.5mm acrylic.

So jealous right now, I could cry  :'(   wonderfull new pictures as well, thanks for rubbing it in even more   :))
Adding a cover for the split ergo would be fantastic too, as an added extra for cost.

It's more like an unlimited supply of 3mm & 6mm ;) We don't use 1.5mm all that much, and from my recent experiences with using it for a plate, I've been less than thrilled with the results. However, I have a few ideas in mind to get around it. I do also have access to a benchtop CNC lathe & mill.

I've had a design in mind for a cover, but haven't offered anything yet because I'm still working on the PCB design and layout, which can affect the design of the case. Once I've got those settled out completely, a new set of stands, keystation, & covers will be designed to match.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Fri, 16 August 2013, 13:40:08
Can't wait. Must. Have
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 16 August 2013, 13:44:11
Can't wait. Must. Have

Looks like we'll be waiting a little longer.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Demonmaker on Fri, 16 August 2013, 14:58:20

So jealous right now, I could cry  :'(   wonderfull new pictures as well, thanks for rubbing it in even more   :))
Adding a cover for the split ergo would be fantastic too, as an added extra for cost.


I've had a design in mind for a cover, but haven't offered anything yet because I'm still working on the PCB design and layout, which can affect the design of the case. Once I've got those settled out completely, a new set of stands, keystation, & covers will be designed to match.

Thats great to hear, thank you.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 16 August 2013, 14:58:54
Can't wait. Must. Have

Looks like we'll be waiting a little longer.

Hopefully the delay should only be a week or two longer than originally planned, I'm going to put a bit of extra money in to get everything shipped faster, and I'll be sending the PCB designs in this weekend.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 16 August 2013, 15:00:15
Can't wait. Must. Have

Looks like we'll be waiting a little longer.

Hopefully the delay should only be a week or two longer than originally planned, I'm going to put a bit of extra money in to get everything shipped faster, and I'll be sending the PCB designs in this weekend.


Sorry if I missed it(as mentioned above the thread is a bit TL;DR), but when was planned?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 16 August 2013, 15:07:44
I was originally targeting for right around now to make the prototype batch available, however the switch on the controllers for the boards has required a bit of retool + test. Between having to study up on the new controllers (datasheets are so boring) and then rerouting everything at the top, it's been a bit time consuming. The good news of course is it means you guys are getting a much more reliable product by the time it reaches you.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 16 August 2013, 19:51:49
To elaborate a bit more about the types of changes I'm making and why the delays are a good thing for those wanting it, I'll talk about the thumbpads I'm currently designing. When I made the decision to change how the boards were controlled, I did so for a couple of reasons.
1) Removes the need for a second & third set of firmware to maintain & update.
2) Lowers the QA potential problems by removing complication, see 1.
3) Removes a very serious potential support problem of users not being able to update the modules in their keyboards
4) While the new parts will cost 5.00-2.00 more per board depending on volume, they simplify development, both for me and for end users. There's no chance of breaking someones custom code or application, because there is no firmware to update on the boards and potentially break someone else's code.
5) The new parts allow for a much greater expandability. Not only do they allow more devices to be added without seperate firmwares for each board, they also allow me to build a controller that can recognize what has been attached to it without users having to figure it out. It also means that if you want to build a set up using only 4x5 modules, you can do so easily without much tinkering.

As I detailed in an earlier post, due to the lack of available I/O, the main boards can't support a detectable variation in the layout. However, for the thumb board, this new system is ideal. There's just one problem however. Due to the size of the packages I'm using, and my commitment to using parts that you can actually place & solder yourself without needing to reflow (like the the tiny tiny LGA packages I've learned to hate >_<), I needed to increase the size of the board to fit the new chips & their support electronics. while it would be nicer to have smaller boards, this increase allows the electronics to be added, a pair of 3.5mm TRRS jacks for flexibility, AND where the previous boards would max out at a possible 11 buttons, moving the electronics frees up an extra spot. Now, this spot isn't usable when the boards are used in the split design, but it is available when using them as external keypads, increasing the usability.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Fri, 16 August 2013, 19:54:08
You've only been here two months AcidFire, you're still a newb, don't bother.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 16 August 2013, 19:55:20
You've only been here two months AcidFire, you're still a newb, don't bother.

He's not a newb haha.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Fri, 16 August 2013, 19:56:25
You've only been here two months AcidFire, you're still a newb, don't bother.

He's not a newb haha.

A measure of newb is my the length of time one has been on a forum, him, you and I, all three of us are newbs
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 16 August 2013, 20:01:31
You've only been here two months AcidFire, you're still a newb, don't bother.

He's not a newb haha.

A measure of newb is my the length of time one has been on a forum, him, you and I, all three of us are newbs

I would classify CPT as a newb.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 16 August 2013, 20:39:11
You've only been here two months AcidFire, you're still a newb, don't bother.

Sorry, what exactly should I not be bothering with?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Fri, 16 August 2013, 20:40:29
You've only been here two months AcidFire, you're still a newb, don't bother.

Sorry, what exactly should I not be bothering with?

Your creations.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 16 August 2013, 20:40:53
You've only been here two months AcidFire, you're still a newb, don't bother.

Sorry, what exactly should I not be bothering with?

Him. Don't feed the trolls. He's turned.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: linziyi on Fri, 16 August 2013, 20:42:08
He is just under a nervous breakdown, maybe some issues in real life which got ignited by some comments in IRC. I think he would be fine after some time, so don't worry about it.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: wesleyh on Sat, 17 August 2013, 12:30:22
Just posting this here in case you haven't seen it yet acidfire, some cool modifications made to the original ergodox design:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kurplop/sets/72157633538408496/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kurplop/sets/72157634289665901/

Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Dynamo on Sat, 17 August 2013, 13:34:58
I am impressed by your work AcidFire.

Being new to the world of keyboard hacking I have a few questions regarding your keyboards.

1. Will your keyboards work with different keyboard layouts for other languages than English? Some layouts use more keys than standard US keyboards provide. Will your keyboard be easily programmable for non-English characters?

2. I usually rest my palms against a palm rest when I type. Will the edge between the thumb keyboard and the main keyboard feel uncomfortable if you rest your hands against the keyboard?

3. Regarding your 70% design. Have you considered putting an angle between the left and right keyboard part to avoid ulnar deviation?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: linziyi on Sat, 17 August 2013, 15:36:18
I am impressed by your work AcidFire.

Being new to the world of keyboard hacking I have a few questions regarding your keyboards.

1. Will your keyboards work with different keyboard layouts for other languages than English? Some layouts use more keys than standard US keyboards provide. Will your keyboard be easily programmable for non-English characters?

2. I usually rest my palms against a palm rest when I type. Will the edge between the thumb keyboard and the main keyboard feel uncomfortable if you rest your hands against the keyboard?

3. Regarding your 70% design. Have you considered putting an angle between the left and right keyboard part to avoid ulnar deviation?

Yeah you can program different layout into the keyboard firmware.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: speedkills on Sat, 17 August 2013, 21:34:24
Finally finished reading the thread.  Awesome concept, I am in to buy one, er actually at least two.  Definitely down for the prototype.  I have a few thoughts floating around in my head after reading all of these posts so I am just going to throw them all out there, if you like any of them cool, if not I won't be hurt and want to buy some of these either way.  I am an owner of many ergo keyboards including my freshly built ergodox a couple of months back as well as a programmer so let me know if I can help in any way.  Ok here goes.

1. I love that you are going bluetooth.  Personally I say don't sweat the ios compatibility, just put a bluetooth radio in each unit.  Besides making the whole thing easier to put together I would say you would be benefitting more gamers who might want to use a single board only as a gaming board than you would be harming people wanting to hook these up to their ipads.  I can't imagine that many people doing that, I rarely see anyone using a keyboard with their ipad and when I do it is either a keyboard case or an apple wireless keyboard.

2.  The increased separation on the pinkie and index fingers are great.  Personally I like even more curve between columns but I don't think many people would agree with me on that.  As you increase the separation you actually make this more piano like.  As most piano players know rsi is greatly reduced when you stop curling your fingers, but to curl less when typing you almost need a greater difference between column heights to account for finger length.  Try holding your fingers straight out and see how much easier it is to move them independently than when they are curled.  Makes a huge difference for me.

3.  Is a custom lithium ion pack needed?  Just asking, I have no idea of the power requirements but I know just having a charger with some AA eneloops in it works great for my other wireless devices.  Cheap and easy, and in a pinch AA's are easy to find.  I am not against a lithium ion pack though, just wondering if you save anything not needing the charging components.

4.  A couple of extra keys on the bottom to allow four way movement keys truly ergonomic style would be awesome.  It is the one feature I really miss when I am not using they keyboard, I never liked the Kinisis Advantage style layout as much.  I am now using my ergodox daily but never could find an ideal layout that allowed me to have something similar to the truly ergonomic's:
left up/down right               home pg up/pg dn  end

5. Someone asked about unused keys on the ergodox.  I don't use any of the furthest out thumb cluster keys, they are too hard to reach.  I don't use the extra keys that would be between 6 and 7 on a regular keyboard either, I tend to miss them and hit the larger 1.5 size keys below them.

6.  I think you have designed in some extra LEDs to show what layer I am on through some combination of lights.  Just wanted to say, awesome.  After three months of usage once every couple of weeks I still end up lost in a layer I am not sure of on my Ergodox and the quickest way to get back to good is to just unplug my keyboard and plug it back in.  Can't tell you how silly I feel rebooting my keyboard to quickly get back to work.

7.  I agree with some of the general concepts shown at http://www.flickr.com/photos/kurplop/9187587157/in/set-72157634289665901  My thumb doesn't move the same way as my other fingers, it wants to move down as it moves away from my palm, not on the same plane as the rest of my fingers. I guess the best way of saying that is that on the Z axis as I extend my thumb away from my hand it wants to move closer to the desk.  I actually end up using my thumb to hit the inner most key on the bottom row of my ergodox that is not on the thumb cluster more than anything else except space. I use that key as my main "swap to symbols" layer when programming and have found it more comfortable to keep the thumb pretty close to my hand instead of stretching it to reach the thumb cluster.

8.  If using plate mount, could the mount be somehow made small enough to fit inside of the main case instead of being a part of it. The best way I can explain this is that if you have an ergodox without palm rests and wanted to switch to a ergodox case with palm rests you could not, because the plate is doing two jobs, holding the keys in place, and two being part of the main cases structure.  Makes it hard to do cool lego like switching of cases.  Without that one feature you could pretty easily swap cases every few months as you saw fit.  The ergodox plate hasn't stopped me from opening my switches and swapping springs, just means I can never swap cases unless I want to desolder every key.

9.  Last one, I promise.  Can your design accept input from the computer that would allow me to switch layers?  I would loooooove to be able to write an app that would switch profiles based on what application has focus, I could automatically switch key layers/mappings based on whether vim, photoshop, chrome, or a video game had the focus.  How cool would that be?

Thanks for your awesome work, now please take my money!!!

-Shane
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Sun, 18 August 2013, 02:37:11
I am impressed by your work AcidFire.

Being new to the world of keyboard hacking I have a few questions regarding your keyboards.

1. Will your keyboards work with different keyboard layouts for other languages than English? Some layouts use more keys than standard US keyboards provide. Will your keyboard be easily programmable for non-English characters?

2. I usually rest my palms against a palm rest when I type. Will the edge between the thumb keyboard and the main keyboard feel uncomfortable if you rest your hands against the keyboard?

3. Regarding your 70% design. Have you considered putting an angle between the left and right keyboard part to avoid ulnar deviation?
1. Thats the plan, you'll be able to change the language on the board, and even set it depending on a layer, so you could have russian/cyrillic on one layer, and english on another.

2. It hasn't so far, but I haven't spent hours typing on it either. because of the way the top is design though, adjustments can be made easily.

3. Yup. You'll see something up about this either tomorrow or Monday.

Finally finished reading the thread.  Awesome concept, I am in to buy one, er actually at least two.  Definitely down for the prototype.  I have a few thoughts floating around in my head after reading all of these posts so I am just going to throw them all out there, if you like any of them cool, if not I won't be hurt and want to buy some of these either way.  I am an owner of many ergo keyboards including my freshly built ergodox a couple of months back as well as a programmer so let me know if I can help in any way.  Ok here goes.

1. I love that you are going bluetooth.  Personally I say don't sweat the ios compatibility, just put a bluetooth radio in each unit.  Besides making the whole thing easier to put together I would say you would be benefitting more gamers who might want to use a single board only as a gaming board than you would be harming people wanting to hook these up to their ipads.  I can't imagine that many people doing that, I rarely see anyone using a keyboard with their ipad and when I do it is either a keyboard case or an apple wireless keyboard.

2.  The increased separation on the pinkie and index fingers are great.  Personally I like even more curve between columns but I don't think many people would agree with me on that.  As you increase the separation you actually make this more piano like.  As most piano players know rsi is greatly reduced when you stop curling your fingers, but to curl less when typing you almost need a greater difference between column heights to account for finger length.  Try holding your fingers straight out and see how much easier it is to move them independently than when they are curled.  Makes a huge difference for me.

3.  Is a custom lithium ion pack needed?  Just asking, I have no idea of the power requirements but I know just having a charger with some AA eneloops in it works great for my other wireless devices.  Cheap and easy, and in a pinch AA's are easy to find.  I am not against a lithium ion pack though, just wondering if you save anything not needing the charging components.

4.  A couple of extra keys on the bottom to allow four way movement keys truly ergonomic style would be awesome.  It is the one feature I really miss when I am not using they keyboard, I never liked the Kinisis Advantage style layout as much.  I am now using my ergodox daily but never could find an ideal layout that allowed me to have something similar to the truly ergonomic's:
left up/down right               home pg up/pg dn  end

5. Someone asked about unused keys on the ergodox.  I don't use any of the furthest out thumb cluster keys, they are too hard to reach.  I don't use the extra keys that would be between 6 and 7 on a regular keyboard either, I tend to miss them and hit the larger 1.5 size keys below them.

6.  I think you have designed in some extra LEDs to show what layer I am on through some combination of lights.  Just wanted to say, awesome.  After three months of usage once every couple of weeks I still end up lost in a layer I am not sure of on my Ergodox and the quickest way to get back to good is to just unplug my keyboard and plug it back in.  Can't tell you how silly I feel rebooting my keyboard to quickly get back to work.

7.  I agree with some of the general concepts shown at http://www.flickr.com/photos/kurplop/9187587157/in/set-72157634289665901  My thumb doesn't move the same way as my other fingers, it wants to move down as it moves away from my palm, not on the same plane as the rest of my fingers. I guess the best way of saying that is that on the Z axis as I extend my thumb away from my hand it wants to move closer to the desk.  I actually end up using my thumb to hit the inner most key on the bottom row of my ergodox that is not on the thumb cluster more than anything else except space. I use that key as my main "swap to symbols" layer when programming and have found it more comfortable to keep the thumb pretty close to my hand instead of stretching it to reach the thumb cluster.

8.  If using plate mount, could the mount be somehow made small enough to fit inside of the main case instead of being a part of it. The best way I can explain this is that if you have an ergodox without palm rests and wanted to switch to a ergodox case with palm rests you could not, because the plate is doing two jobs, holding the keys in place, and two being part of the main cases structure.  Makes it hard to do cool lego like switching of cases.  Without that one feature you could pretty easily swap cases every few months as you saw fit.  The ergodox plate hasn't stopped me from opening my switches and swapping springs, just means I can never swap cases unless I want to desolder every key.

9.  Last one, I promise.  Can your design accept input from the computer that would allow me to switch layers?  I would loooooove to be able to write an app that would switch profiles based on what application has focus, I could automatically switch key layers/mappings based on whether vim, photoshop, chrome, or a video game had the focus.  How cool would that be?

Thanks for your awesome work, now please take my money!!!

-Shane
Glad you managed to power through, and kudos for taking the time to actually read it all. To answer your questions:

1. I use my Apple wireless with it quite a bit, and only because there weren't a lot of options for affordable bluetooth ergo boards. I've also had a few people with disabilities tell me that they're looking forward to having a more comfortable board to use with their ipads & other devices. I mentioned the iOS limitation because it's the one I'm most familiar with, but I've heard that some other devices can have the same issue. I do know I should be able to slave one radio to the other, so that's the plan for now.

2. I'm looking forward to seeing what people who own the ergodox already have to say about the staggering I've done, I think you'll find it more pronounced than it looks.

3. It's not a custom pack per se, it is an off the shelf part. While things like AAs are convenient, there isn't enough space in the casing for them without making it thicker. Also, while there obviously needs to be some real world testing done, the pack I have in mind should last roughly as long as a set of AAs would.

4. TBH, that's what I had planned for that last row of keys, the set of 4 next to the 1.5. What do you currently use those keys for?

5. Again, interested to hear opinions on the thumb cluster, since the positioning was altered specifically to deal with the fact that they're unreachable on the ergodox.

6. Yup. Aside from the PWM controlled backlight, there are 5 RGB LEDs on each of the main boards, making for a total of 10 that can be programmed to do, well anything, including showing you what layer you're on.

7. I do as well, but for now the altered angle from the Ergodox is a bit of a compromise to reduce the amount of movement your thumb needs to make to strike the keys. Because of the modular design of the set up, something with a bit more of a curve could be switched to with minimal effort/cost for the end user.

8. Check back tomorrow for more details on this ;)

9. I believe so. TBH I haven't done anything before with talking to a device set up as an HID, but from what I'm reading, this should be entirely possible. My tablet already does this and I love it, will all come down to how I can communicate with the board.

Finally little preview of what's coming tomorrow:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14411.jpg)

I spent a bit of time with the laser today, so I've got lots to show off :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: anotherjunkie on Sun, 18 August 2013, 13:28:39
Finally little preview of what's coming tomorrow:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14411.jpg)

I spent a bit of time with the laser today, so I've got lots to show off :D

I never fail to be completely amazed every time I open up this thread. Almost every day you bring us an improvement on something that was already awesome, and the number of cool things coming from this project is just staggering.

I can't wait to start grabbing the different components that you'll be putting out, and testing these configurations on my desk!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: JPG on Sun, 18 August 2013, 14:55:19
Have you considred having an angle on the thumb cluster (different angle versus the alphas)? I don't have an ergodox, so it's hard to tell, but when I look at my hand on a natural position, if I only move my thumb it is not moving exactly in the same angle than my other fingers, so I suppose that it would be nice to have the thumb cluster in that same natural angle.

But like I said, never tried a dox so it's hard to tell, but I wanted to share this idea in case someone want to discuss it!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: speedkills on Sun, 18 August 2013, 20:52:13
Regarding my currently layout, you can see it here.  I actually have my number row permanently shifted although it doesn't show in the diagram so I just press 8 for * as an example, and shift + 8 to actually get number 8, or more frequently hold down my layer shift key and use the 8 on the numpad.

I don't love how I have my direction keys but just didn't have enough keys to come up with a better layout, if there were one more key below the WSX column I would have just put my direction on the main layer and never have to shift to get to them, but as is the best I could do was hold down the function key with one hand and then access the full set of function keys as I like with my other hand.

Overall though this has been a huge improvement when programming.  I know plenty of people will say use the old vim style hjkl (which I do) but I also use plenty of other programs that make frequent use of arrow keys plus home/end/pg up/pg down. 

I also wish I could find one more place for a hyper key (for me basically command + ctrl + alt + shift) which makes it really easy to have shortcuts that aren't used by other modifier keys.  I currently do this by overloading the caps lock, if I tap the caps lock it is esc, if I hold it and press another key it is hyper.  I actually have a few unused keys because it didn't end up being a case of not having enough keys, it came down to not having enough keys in the right places.  The thumb cluster which looked so great on the ergodox ended up far less useful than planned, the only two keys I can conveniently reach are the two large keys, so in effect I have only three keys I can reach with each thumb, the two large keys on the main cluster, and the layer shift key I use which is the bottom row closest to the thumb cluster on each hand.  Sure does work out well though, especially setup to be a sticky key so I don't have to actually chord when I am programming, if I want to type an underscore for example I just tap the key directly below V with my left hand, then what would be H with my right hand.  Really helpful when programming in Ruby which loves variables_named_in_snake_case.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: kittykatmax on Mon, 19 August 2013, 01:20:24
I was thinking about joining the current MassDrop ErgoDox group buy, as I fell in love with the ErgoDox concept.  Between the unavailability of Cherry MX Browns (I need to buy it assembled) and my concerns about the thumb cluster, I'll sadly be giving it a pass.  Maybe it's the fact that it was two-dimensional, or maybe just because I'm female, but when I printed "to size" pdfs of the two halves, they felt enormous; I had a tough time with the position of the thumb clusters.  Aside from arthritis in my finger joints, I have nerve issues with my pinkies caused by neurogenic thoracic outlet syndrome, plus I have problems with the tendons in my thumbs.    I've been dying for a truly split, tentable (is that even a word?), mechanical keyboard, but I also need to make sure if I'm paying $250+ that it'll actually fit my small, messed up hands. 

When I saw your project (amazing job - wish I had your skills!), I was very interested in how you lowered the thumb section. 

I have a few questions:

- Is this keyboard going to be any smaller/any easier to use for people with smaller hands vs. the ErgoDox?   

- Have you ever considered seeing if you could angle the thumb section downward, as opposed to just lowering the entire cluster (but leaving it level)? Or, perhaps having the thumb cluster attached via some sort of hinge to allow the user to adjust the angle for comfort? The human thumb rests at an angle from the hand in its neutral position, yet even the so-called "ergonomic" keyboards overlook that fact.  Great info on the anatomy of the hand at http://www.dartmouth.edu/~humananatomy/part_2/chapter_11.html (http://www.dartmouth.edu/~humananatomy/part_2/chapter_11.html). 

Assuming it's even feasible from a design/fabrication standpoint, angling the thumb section would allow more natural thumb movement and reach.  I have a Key Tronic FlexPro keyboard (sitting in a box, sadly, wish it was tkl and mechanical) but I always loved the fact that you could actuate the space bar not just from the top, but also from the inner edges when tenting the two keyboard sections.  It just felt RIGHT to curl my thumb inward a bit to actuate the space bar.

For all I know, I'm insane to even ask, and I hope my questions don't come across as critical of your design (or that of the ErgoDox - they're both amazing!), but as a woman with fubar thumbs AND pinkies, I was curious.  Regardless, if I could buy one of your great keyboards (assembled) with Cherry MX Browns, I would jump on the chance...IF I thought I could (reasonably) reach everything.'

Also, for people worrying about batteries, just buy some Sanyo eneloops and a charger - problem solved.  That's what Logitech uses in their G700 mice which is great, since you can have extra charged for quick swap-outs if you hate using the USB cable.

Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Dynamo on Mon, 19 August 2013, 08:22:56
AcidFire,
Thank you for your feedback. I was planning on building an Ergodox, but I think your design looks more interesting.

Today I use a traditional Swedish keyboard with the additional umlaut characters Å, Ä, Ö next to the 'L' and 'P' keys in a qwerty layout. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:KB_Sweden.svg
I wish to keep a similar layout but on a more user friendly keyboard. :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: wesleyh on Mon, 19 August 2013, 09:42:43
How about adding a trackpoint to the keyboard? I know you're going to be making a trackball addon, but it would be nice to have a trackpoint too, as  standard in the keyboard so we do not have to lift our fingers away from the keyboard for simple mousing operations. Just an idea!

I don't think this could be offered as an addon, could it? Since it has to be on the keyboard itself (left or right side).
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: insilica on Mon, 19 August 2013, 11:19:22
How about adding a trackpoint to the keyboard? I know you're going to be making a trackball addon, but it would be nice to have a trackpoint too, as  standard in the keyboard so we do not have to lift our fingers away from the keyboard for simple mousing operations. Just an idea!

I don't think this could be offered as an addon, could it? Since it has to be on the keyboard itself (left or right side).

Isn't there some stupid patent (s) which makes the trackpoint a no go?

Would be nice to have but not a must ;)

E.g. http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US6115030
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 19 August 2013, 13:00:33
AcidFire,
Thank you for your feedback. I was planning on building an Ergodox, but I think your design looks more interesting.

Today I use a traditional Swedish keyboard with the additional umlaut characters Å, Ä, Ö next to the 'L' and 'P' keys in a qwerty layout. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:KB_Sweden.svg
I wish to keep a similar layout but on a more user friendly keyboard. :)
I'll probably need a hand testing it, but yes, the plan is to keep it multilingual friendly :)

How about adding a trackpoint to the keyboard? I know you're going to be making a trackball addon, but it would be nice to have a trackpoint too, as  standard in the keyboard so we do not have to lift our fingers away from the keyboard for simple mousing operations. Just an idea!

I don't think this could be offered as an addon, could it? Since it has to be on the keyboard itself (left or right side).

Isn't there some stupid patent (s) which makes the trackpoint a no go?

Would be nice to have but not a must ;)

E.g. http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US6115030
It's not an issue of patents, it's an issue of availability. I can't order modules, I'd have to rip them from keyboards, which presents issues of supply. I'm not only looking at trackballs, but a number of options so that you guys can pick the option that best suits you.

I was thinking about joining the current MassDrop ErgoDox group buy, as I fell in love with the ErgoDox concept.  Between the unavailability of Cherry MX Browns (I need to buy it assembled) and my concerns about the thumb cluster, I'll sadly be giving it a pass.  Maybe it's the fact that it was two-dimensional, or maybe just because I'm female, but when I printed "to size" pdfs of the two halves, they felt enormous; I had a tough time with the position of the thumb clusters.  Aside from arthritis in my finger joints, I have nerve issues with my pinkies caused by neurogenic thoracic outlet syndrome, plus I have problems with the tendons in my thumbs.    I've been dying for a truly split, tentable (is that even a word?), mechanical keyboard, but I also need to make sure if I'm paying $250+ that it'll actually fit my small, messed up hands. 

When I saw your project (amazing job - wish I had your skills!), I was very interested in how you lowered the thumb section. 

I have a few questions:

- Is this keyboard going to be any smaller/any easier to use for people with smaller hands vs. the ErgoDox?   

- Have you ever considered seeing if you could angle the thumb section downward, as opposed to just lowering the entire cluster (but leaving it level)? Or, perhaps having the thumb cluster attached via some sort of hinge to allow the user to adjust the angle for comfort? The human thumb rests at an angle from the hand in its neutral position, yet even the so-called "ergonomic" keyboards overlook that fact.  Great info on the anatomy of the hand at http://www.dartmouth.edu/~humananatomy/part_2/chapter_11.html (http://www.dartmouth.edu/~humananatomy/part_2/chapter_11.html). 

Assuming it's even feasible from a design/fabrication standpoint, angling the thumb section would allow more natural thumb movement and reach.  I have a Key Tronic FlexPro keyboard (sitting in a box, sadly, wish it was tkl and mechanical) but I always loved the fact that you could actuate the space bar not just from the top, but also from the inner edges when tenting the two keyboard sections.  It just felt RIGHT to curl my thumb inward a bit to actuate the space bar.

For all I know, I'm insane to even ask, and I hope my questions don't come across as critical of your design (or that of the ErgoDox - they're both amazing!), but as a woman with fubar thumbs AND pinkies, I was curious.  Regardless, if I could buy one of your great keyboards (assembled) with Cherry MX Browns, I would jump on the chance...IF I thought I could (reasonably) reach everything.'

Also, for people worrying about batteries, just buy some Sanyo eneloops and a charger - problem solved.  That's what Logitech uses in their G700 mice which is great, since you can have extra charged for quick swap-outs if you hate using the USB cable.
I don't think you're questions are critical at all! If I were in your situation I would be asking the same questions. Design wise, the thumb cluster seems to be reachable by smaller hands, as I've had my girlfriend test it. However, if there is a need to have the cluster tweaked and brought in a bit for smaller hands, I would be happy to design a case to bring the cluster closer, while still keeping the modularity of the keypads.

As for the drop vs a different angle, it basically came down to what I was able to produce with the tools I have at hand. If the initial Kickstarter campaign does well and especially if I hit over my goal, I'm definitely going to be grabbing tools for developing more 3D style cases that will still use the modular boards.

On the battery issue, as I mentioned before, there isn't enough space in the casing to allow for something the size of AA's, however, I do want to design a set of batteries that can be swapped quickly, so that you can have a pair charging while the others are in use in the board.

And yes, I do plan to offer MX browns, and as mentioned before, there will be an option to buy assembled as well ;)

Regarding my currently layout, you can see it here.  I actually have my number row permanently shifted although it doesn't show in the diagram so I just press 8 for * as an example, and shift + 8 to actually get number 8, or more frequently hold down my layer shift key and use the 8 on the numpad.

I don't love how I have my direction keys but just didn't have enough keys to come up with a better layout, if there were one more key below the WSX column I would have just put my direction on the main layer and never have to shift to get to them, but as is the best I could do was hold down the function key with one hand and then access the full set of function keys as I like with my other hand.

Overall though this has been a huge improvement when programming.  I know plenty of people will say use the old vim style hjkl (which I do) but I also use plenty of other programs that make frequent use of arrow keys plus home/end/pg up/pg down. 

I also wish I could find one more place for a hyper key (for me basically command + ctrl + alt + shift) which makes it really easy to have shortcuts that aren't used by other modifier keys.  I currently do this by overloading the caps lock, if I tap the caps lock it is esc, if I hold it and press another key it is hyper.  I actually have a few unused keys because it didn't end up being a case of not having enough keys, it came down to not having enough keys in the right places.  The thumb cluster which looked so great on the ergodox ended up far less useful than planned, the only two keys I can conveniently reach are the two large keys, so in effect I have only three keys I can reach with each thumb, the two large keys on the main cluster, and the layer shift key I use which is the bottom row closest to the thumb cluster on each hand.  Sure does work out well though, especially setup to be a sticky key so I don't have to actually chord when I am programming, if I want to type an underscore for example I just tap the key directly below V with my left hand, then what would be H with my right hand.  Really helpful when programming in Ruby which loves variables_named_in_snake_case.
I think you're missing a link or some content at the beginning of your post. As for extra buttons, I've been playing with the design but haven't been able to find somewhere comfortable under the bottom row of keys to add more. Hopefully, with the changes made to the thumb cluster, you'll find it a bit more useful. There will also be other thumb cluster layouts that will allow you to have more buttons at your disposal, and of course you can always add external pads quite easily as well.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 20 August 2013, 22:17:04
A quickish update for something I meant to post a couple days ago:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14427.jpg)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14431.jpg)
These are the mid & bottom plates, showing how the new swappable plates are styled. The one for the thumb cluster isn't finished, because I'm still tweaking the board layout on that one.
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14432.jpg)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14433.jpg)
The top there are the first variations I plan to release for the thumb clusters. The bottoms are the first two 4x5 variants, one being a number pad and the other a standard 4x5 grid.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 21 August 2013, 00:10:32
Forgot to post these as well:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14418.jpg)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14416.jpg)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14438.jpg)
This was the first revision to the 70% straight concept, implementing the new plates, integrating the LEDs and per CommunistWitchDr's suggestion, the last two keys from the original concept have been dropped to where they can be easily reached by either thumb, particularly the 1.5 at the bottom.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: sordna on Wed, 21 August 2013, 01:10:50
gorgeous stuff mate !!!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Demonmaker on Wed, 21 August 2013, 02:42:09
That new photo booth working its magic, Thanks for the updates as it's always nice to see things moving along
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Wed, 21 August 2013, 03:21:14
Yummy pictures, but honestly great work, I'm still not too sure about the 70%.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: SpAmRaY on Wed, 21 August 2013, 03:33:02
Did I see a separate number pad a few pages back? Or was that just a module?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Wed, 21 August 2013, 08:32:20
Did I see a separate number pad a few pages back? Or was that just a module?


That was part of the 'keystation'. So yes, a module in a way.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Wed, 21 August 2013, 09:03:06
Did I see a separate number pad a few pages back? Or was that just a module?


That was part of the 'keystation'. So yes, a module in a way.

I think it was more "the keystation has a spot for the numpad" than "the numpad is part of the keystation". I'm pretty sure it can be used with or without the keystation. I am not sure if it can be used without the main board or if it connects through it though.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: wiredPANDA on Wed, 21 August 2013, 10:16:43
That 70% is looking better the more I look at it.

Nice work on the plates.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 21 August 2013, 12:48:47
gorgeous stuff mate !!!
That new photo booth working its magic, Thanks for the updates as it's always nice to see things moving along
That 70% is looking better the more I look at it.

Nice work on the plates.
Thank you :D And I find posting updates, even small ones, motivational, in part because of feedback and when you start to take pride in showing what you've worked on, it drives you to put even more time and effort into making it better.


Did I see a separate number pad a few pages back? Or was that just a module?


That was part of the 'keystation'. So yes, a module in a way.

I think it was more "the keystation has a spot for the numpad" than "the numpad is part of the keystation". I'm pretty sure it can be used with or without the keystation. I am not sure if it can be used without the main board or if it connects through it though.
Yes, the number pad isn't exclusive to the keystation, or any other configuration. There are two ports on each of the split halves, one of which would be available on each side after they are connected. On the straight & split boards, you'll have 4 ports free as the keypads will be connected internally.

I've also been tossing around the idea of doing a simple pair of addon boards for the controller board to allow you to use it externally, so if all you wanted was a bunch of the 3x4 or 4x5 modules, that'll be entirely possible. The controller board is already designed to handle this, I would just have to design the addon board, which shouldn't take more than a half hour or so given it's simplicity.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: daerid on Wed, 21 August 2013, 14:26:26
I am. I am 150% sure about that 70% board. It makes me drool.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: JPG on Wed, 21 August 2013, 14:29:35
People will sell their Korean custom to get this (or maybe it's already started!)

Joking, but damn it's so nice!

 :thumb:
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: vivalarevolución on Wed, 21 August 2013, 15:11:26
Glad to see those caps I sold you being put to good use.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Loligagger on Wed, 21 August 2013, 20:52:57
If you're going for plates being separate from the case itself, any chance for stainless steel?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Tarzan on Thu, 22 August 2013, 07:07:58
If you're going for plates being separate from the case itself, any chance for stainless steel?

+1 for this.  As much as I like the look of the acrylic cases, the stainless steel plates from The_Beast are superb.  Maybe a kit build option, sourcing the plates from The_Beast?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: wesleyh on Thu, 22 August 2013, 07:19:37
where can we see these stainless steel plates from "the_beast"? was something like this made for ergodox?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Tarzan on Thu, 22 August 2013, 07:33:26
where can we see these stainless steel plates from "the_beast"? was something like this made for ergodox?

Negative, I just mentioned these as an example of stainless steel switch plates created for other keyboard models.  [Not even sure The_Beast is interested in another round of dealing with laser fab shops, it sounds like a thankless task!]

But, IF a stainless steel plate (or plates...) were an option for the ErgoGP, I'd be even more happy with this custom keyboard.  If that's even possible.   :p
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Thu, 22 August 2013, 08:01:24
Aluminium plates would be more realistic. I don't know if he's got a laser cutter for the job, though...
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: insilica on Thu, 22 August 2013, 12:16:13
I am. I am 150% sure about that 70% board. It makes me drool.

What took you so long :)

Yea for me it's going to be both :D. One at a time though, probably starting with the 70%- though, don't know will toss a coin when time comes.

Keep up the excellent work Acid :)

Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Merloobi on Thu, 22 August 2013, 13:13:26
Oh boy oh boy. I can't wait. Will there be options for custom color options? I'd love a white acrylic case to match my color scheme. Thanks!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 22 August 2013, 15:39:17
Oh boy oh boy. I can't wait. Will there be options for custom color options? I'd love a white acrylic case to match my color scheme. Thanks!
Of course :D How could I claim to have a completely customizable keyboard without the choice of custom colors for the cases ;)

where can we see these stainless steel plates from "the_beast"? was something like this made for ergodox?
Negative, I just mentioned these as an example of stainless steel switch plates created for other keyboard models.  [Not even sure The_Beast is interested in another round of dealing with laser fab shops, it sounds like a thankless task!]

But, IF a stainless steel plate (or plates...) were an option for the ErgoGP, I'd be even more happy with this custom keyboard.  If that's even possible.   :p
If you're going for plates being separate from the case itself, any chance for stainless steel?
+1 for this.  As much as I like the look of the acrylic cases, the stainless steel plates from The_Beast are superb.  Maybe a kit build option, sourcing the plates from The_Beast?
Aluminium plates would be more realistic. I don't know if he's got a laser cutter for the job, though...
If you're going for plates being separate from the case itself, any chance for stainless steel?
Aluminum & Stainless plates aren't out of the question. I currently don't have the capability to cut either, but that might change if the kickstarter goes very well. Either I acquire or lease a laser, or I find a shop to do it at a decent price.

I am. I am 150% sure about that 70% board. It makes me drool.

What took you so long :)

Yea for me it's going to be both :D. One at a time though, probably starting with the 70%- though, don't know will toss a coin when time comes.

Keep up the excellent work Acid :)
I'm thinking for the beta testers, I'm going to include all three case designs (still only enough electronics to build one) so that everyone who is testing has the opportunity to give me feedback on all three.

And when I launch the kickstarter campaign, I'm looking at doing multipacks where you can buy two sets at a bit of a discount.

Oh, and since I mentioned a third design:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Thu, 22 August 2013, 15:44:51
Sold on the 70% angled design. 100% sold! Since much more excited about the regular split design but that is perfect for travel.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: thadood on Thu, 22 August 2013, 16:06:56
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)



(http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6axgxYPry1robh3ho1_250.gif)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: fisofo on Thu, 22 August 2013, 16:32:22

Oh, and since I mentioned a third design:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)



That is pretty awesome... how does it feel on your hands?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: do_Og@n on Thu, 22 August 2013, 16:51:42

Oh, and since I mentioned a third design:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)



That is pretty awesome... how does it feel on your hands?

You mean besides like a orgasm?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Thu, 22 August 2013, 16:56:42
Quick question Acidfire, have you noticed an issues i have with the spherical keycaps on a flat design. For me they stick up much higher than the rest of the keys (more than I would like) to the point that I fine myself catching my hands on them. Not sure there is really an easy solution but on the Kinesis the heights of the spherial keycaps are about the same and rest of the keys. It also may be because I got the DSC keycaps.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 22 August 2013, 17:19:10
Oh, and since I mentioned a third design:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)

That is pretty awesome... how does it feel on your hands?
Sold on the 70% angled design. 100% sold! Since much more excited about the regular split design but that is perfect for travel.
Oh, and since I mentioned a third design:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)

That is pretty awesome... how does it feel on your hands?
You mean besides like a orgasm?
I love it. Like Blue said, I still prefer the proper split, but this will definitely be the board I take when I travel.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: wiredPANDA on Thu, 22 August 2013, 18:24:34
Design three - yes, yes, yes.  Think that'll become my travel board.  An otherwise crappy day has been salvaged with awesome updates to this thread.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Thu, 22 August 2013, 19:01:06
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)


Now THAT's it!
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: spspencer on Thu, 22 August 2013, 22:17:08
Are you still accepting Beta testers? If so, please add me.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Larken on Thu, 22 August 2013, 22:24:16

Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)



now, this, I would use. The original 70% didn't seem like a good idea to me due to the ulnar deviation. I was envisioning something like this instead (which in all honesty, is somewhat like a catboard, but with more buttons). And man, you sure do get these prototypes out fast. Can't wait for these to start selling.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Glod on Thu, 22 August 2013, 22:45:07
Oh, and since I mentioned a third design:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)


oh my this looks to be even better than before, this looks like something that would actually replace everything, use it for home+travel

though i do want to add my input, just throwing this out there:
1. Cosmetically all the bolts really is unappealing, looks to be 18 of them. maybe if they were countersunk and black on black then i think i would like it. I also hate this about my ergodox, i think of them as warts. You may have mentioned this is only for prototyping in your designs and sorry if i missed it if so
2. I know you are going for getting a bunch of keys on there but i just dont see the point of 2 of the keys in the top center.
(http://almightyglod.com/public_stack/BDY14440_edited.jpg)
it may look better without them and be one less 1.5 key cap i would have to acquire (i do like "bringing my own" key caps)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Thu, 22 August 2013, 22:47:14
Third design, yes!

Remove the keys in the center, and add a trackball, maybe remove the 1.5x on the sides to make it more portable.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47220.0
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 22 August 2013, 22:58:23
oh my this looks to be even better than before, this looks like something that would actually replace everything, use it for home+travel

though i do want to add my input, just throwing this out there:
1. Cosmetically all the bolts really is unappealing, looks to be 18 of them. maybe if they were countersunk and black on black then i think i would like it. I also hate this about my ergodox, i think of them as warts. You may have mentioned this is only for prototyping in your designs and sorry if i missed it if so
2. I know you are going for getting a bunch of keys on there but i just dont see the point of 2 of the keys in the top center.
Show Image
(http://almightyglod.com/public_stack/BDY14440_edited.jpg)

it may look better without them and be one less 1.5 key cap i would have to acquire (i do like "bringing my own" key caps)
1. I agree. I'm working to minimise them, but right now I go a little nuts because it lets me remove some and test to see which are absolutely needed, and which aren't.
2. yeah, I've been debating on this, it was mostly to match the number of keys on the straight board, but just like the thumb boards I can easily vary the number of them.
Third design, yes!

Remove the keys in the center, and add a trackball, maybe remove the 1.5x on the sides to make it more portable.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47220.0
It's something I've got marked down for the second batch of board designs, as it would require a heavy modification to the board design to make it work. But I'm not counting it out yet.


Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)



now, this, I would use. The original 70% didn't seem like a good idea to me due to the ulnar deviation. I was envisioning something like this instead (which in all honesty, is somewhat like a catboard, but with more buttons). And man, you sure do get these prototypes out fast. Can't wait for these to start selling.
Well the non split was put together rather quickly based on daerid's concept, and I imagine there will be some who prefer it. I however agree about the deviation, and thus this was the logical next step. I actually didn't turn this one around as quickly as I wanted, but I'm not used to working at angles like they are on this one (OCD is not my friend with this sort of thing.)

Are you still accepting Beta testers? If so, please add me.
http://multiplxd.com/ergogp/beta (http://multiplxd.com/ergogp/beta) - Fill that out, I'm still taking applications.

Design three - yes, yes, yes.  Think that'll become my travel board.  An otherwise crappy day has been salvaged with awesome updates to this thread.
Glad I could pick up your day for you :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Larken on Thu, 22 August 2013, 23:18:25

Well the non split was put together rather quickly based on daerid's concept, and I imagine there will be some who prefer it. I however agree about the deviation, and thus this was the logical next step. I actually didn't turn this one around as quickly as I wanted, but I'm not used to working at angles like they are on this one (OCD is not my friend with this sort of thing.)


don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking on the design; after all, different people have different ergo needs. But I could tell at a glance that I couldn't use the original 70% without RSI symptoms returns.

And relax, you're plenty fast as it is. Most (esp me) would take weeks or months (if ever) to turn out a prototype based on an idea like this. Its a beautifully done job. Much props to you.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Thu, 22 August 2013, 23:36:24
Larken is reiterating what I had said, I had printed a mockup of the 70% and it didn't work, in 5mins, I knew, I couldn't use it.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: daerid on Fri, 23 August 2013, 00:25:13
Oh, and since I mentioned a third design:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)


Wow... you are fast. This looks amazing. However, I must say that (at least for me), I would much prefer the straight design. I've tried tilting my ErgoDox, and it just doesn't feel right, and puts too much strain on my pinkies. I have fairly large hands and type with straight wrists as it is, so the straight 70% looks absolutely perfect for me.

But that's the beauty of your design. Completely modular. You sir, are a master.

Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Demonmaker on Fri, 23 August 2013, 06:31:11
Loving the new 70% one, I'm still going for the ErgoGP split version though because it suits what I have in mind for my simpit and its just simply beautiful, but after seeing that last one.... The wife is going to kill me when you offer the discount for getting both.

Thanks again for the update, roll on kickstarter.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: kurplop on Fri, 23 August 2013, 08:38:29
In an orchestra, one conductor leads a large group of highly talented musicians to create a masterpiece. 

You sir, took your cues from dozens of "conductors" and using your prodigious skills are working toward a travel keyboard masterpiece. The GP is a fine design but I believe the travel version may become your magnum opus. I think it strikes a good balance between portability, ergonomic improvement, affordability(from simple construction) and appearance. I can't wait to see what's next. Built in nail clipper?

Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Dynamo on Fri, 23 August 2013, 10:00:50
Oh, and since I mentioned a third design:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)


Very nice! And I for one like that there are many keys on the board. :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: wiredPANDA on Fri, 23 August 2013, 10:19:42
Glad I checked - I missed the beta signup form.

And I agree with kurplop that third design may become the forerunner once things get going.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Binge on Fri, 23 August 2013, 10:20:18
Sometimes I think there are too many damn buttons.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: kurplop on Fri, 23 August 2013, 10:29:10
Oh, and since I mentioned a third design:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)


Wow... you are fast. This looks amazing. However, I must say that (at least for me), I would much prefer the straight design. I've tried tilting my ErgoDox, and it just doesn't feel right, and puts too much strain on my pinkies. I have fairly large hands and type with straight wrists as it is, so the straight 70% looks absolutely perfect for me.

But that's the beauty of your design. Completely modular. You sir, are a master.



Reducing ulnar deviation is a traditional method of improving keyboard ergonomics. I was surprised to hear that you prefer the straight design. Do you hold your ErgoDox apart at shoulder width?
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: daerid on Fri, 23 August 2013, 13:40:14
Reducing ulnar deviation is a traditional method of improving keyboard ergonomics. I was surprised to hear that you prefer the straight design. Do you hold your ErgoDox apart at shoulder width?

Not quite. Here's a pic of how my hands rest on the ErgoDox:

(http://i.imgur.com/TM60d7b.jpg)

It's hard to tell, but my wrist is pretty much totally straight. I've found that if I rotate the ergodox at all it puts much more strain on my ring and pinky fingers than I like and my wrists tent to deviate radially, which is also uncomfortable.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: ephson on Fri, 23 August 2013, 13:56:43

Oh, and since I mentioned a third design:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)


Want!  I love this design (especially for travel).
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 23 August 2013, 15:57:38
I'm happy everyone likes it, I've been pretty damn happy with it too, and I'm looking forward to getting my next batch of boards to finally get to take this layout for a proper test drive.

In an orchestra, one conductor leads a large group of highly talented musicians to create a masterpiece. 

You sir, took your cues from dozens of "conductors" and using your prodigious skills are working toward a travel keyboard masterpiece. The GP is a fine design but I believe the travel version may become your magnum opus. I think it strikes a good balance between portability, ergonomic improvement, affordability(from simple construction) and appearance. I can't wait to see what's next. Built in nail clipper?
Coming from you sir, that means the world :D. I'm a bit surprised at the amount of do want the 75% ergoboard is getting, but glad that the design was worth fighting through.

Sometimes I think there are too many damn buttons.
Thats the nice thing about a modular system, you can set yourself up to have only as many switches as you need. Besides, more switches means a need for more binge caps :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: MOZ on Fri, 23 August 2013, 16:01:08
Reducing ulnar deviation is a traditional method of improving keyboard ergonomics. I was surprised to hear that you prefer the straight design. Do you hold your ErgoDox apart at shoulder width?

Not quite. Here's a pic of how my hands rest on the ErgoDox:

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/TM60d7b.jpg)


It's hard to tell, but my wrist is pretty much totally straight. I've found that if I rotate the ergodox at all it puts much more strain on my ring and pinky fingers than I like and my wrists tent to deviate radially, which is also uncomfortable.

Don't your fingers travel in an unnatural manner then, at angle to the left for left hand and right for right hand rather than just curling them back and forth.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: kurplop on Fri, 23 August 2013, 16:01:42

It's hard to tell, but my wrist is pretty much totally straight. I've found that if I rotate the ergodox at all it puts much more strain on my ring and pinky fingers than I like and my wrists tent to deviate radially, which is also uncomfortable.

That's reinforces my belief that one person's pain is another person's  pleasure in the ergo world.

I think it's great that AcidFire is being so accommodating with his designs.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 23 August 2013, 16:55:45
I still can't wait to shove my money down acidfire's throat for a beta ergogp. I don't travel a lot, so I'm still very excited about the original GP.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Acendancy
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 23 August 2013, 17:54:46
So for the modular system itself, I've decided to call it Ascendancy. Will probably keep the GP for the split boards, will have to come up with something other than straight or ergo for the 75% boards.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Ascendancy
Post by: daerid on Fri, 23 August 2013, 18:21:05
Don't your fingers travel in an unnatural manner then, at angle to the left for left hand and right for right hand rather than just curling them back and forth.

Not that I can tell. Maybe I just have odd fingers. It's quite comfortable for me.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Acendancy
Post by: sm31 on Fri, 23 August 2013, 19:07:36
So for the modular system itself, I've decided to call it Ascendancy. Will probably keep the GP for the split boards, will have to come up with something other than straight or ergo for the 75% boards.

Why "ascendancy"? That's a word that doesn't immediately suggest to me what you're trying to do with the project (not that I have a better one ATM mind you).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Acendancy
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 23 August 2013, 19:10:12
So for the modular system itself, I've decided to call it Ascendancy. Will probably keep the GP for the split boards, will have to come up with something other than straight or ergo for the 75% boards.

Why "ascendancy"? That's a word that doesn't immediately suggest to me what you're trying to do with the project (not that I have a better one ATM mind you).

I think that it sounds cool.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Ascendancy
Post by: sordna on Fri, 23 August 2013, 21:27:30
Don't your fingers travel in an unnatural manner then, at angle to the left for left hand and right for right hand rather than just curling them back and forth.

Not that I can tell. Maybe I just have odd fingers. It's quite comfortable for me.

my guess you keep the keyboard far away from your body. Because if like most people you keep the keyboard as low and close to your belly as possible, you have to angle it (3rd design) or significantly distance the 2 halves, otherwise the wrists become totally bent.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Ascendancy
Post by: Larken on Fri, 23 August 2013, 21:51:39
Reducing ulnar deviation is a traditional method of improving keyboard ergonomics. I was surprised to hear that you prefer the straight design. Do you hold your ErgoDox apart at shoulder width?

Not quite. Here's a pic of how my hands rest on the ErgoDox:

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/TM60d7b.jpg)


It's hard to tell, but my wrist is pretty much totally straight. I've found that if I rotate the ergodox at all it puts much more strain on my ring and pinky fingers than I like and my wrists tent to deviate radially, which is also uncomfortable.

Don't your fingers travel in an unnatural manner then, at angle to the left for left hand and right for right hand rather than just curling them back and forth.

Not that I can tell. Maybe I just have odd fingers. It's quite comfortable for me.

my guess you keep the keyboard far away from your body. Because if like most people you keep the keyboard as low and close to your belly as possible, you have to angle it (3rd design) or significantly distance the 2 halves, otherwise the wrists become totally bent.


pretty much what sordna said. I keep mine as near to my waist level as much as I can, and I require it angled quite a bit to keep my wrists totally straight. To keep it at the waist perfectly straight would require me to put the halves further apart, at shoulder width like kurplop has mentioned. Sordna's guess is probably accurate - the keyboard is probably further away than your body compared to most.

but daerid, have you considered the distance between the two halves of the ergodox? due to the design of the thumb cluster, there is a minimum distance of about 4 to 5 keys (1x size) that cannot be bridged, whereas on design 1 (for the nonsplit), the length between the two 'halves' is 2 key's width. Unless one uses the keyboard in a way that keeps their arms (yes, arms, not wrists) stretched far away from their body (in theory, further away than where your ergodox is right now), there will likely be ulnar deviation.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Ascendancy
Post by: AcidFire on Sat, 24 August 2013, 01:45:59
As promised in the 40% thread, two designs:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14443.jpg)
The one at the top is based on a pair of the 4x5 modules I'm designing, the one on the bottom would be a different board entirely.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Ascendancy
Post by: TheSoulhunter on Sat, 24 August 2013, 03:45:58
The 2nd would be awesome with some sort of hinge in the middle to split it...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Ascendancy
Post by: MOZ on Sat, 24 August 2013, 05:44:58
The 2nd would be awesome with some sort of hinge in the middle to split it...

Yeah, agreed, maybe at the top and BT would make ti perfect.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Ascendancy
Post by: Thimplum on Sat, 24 August 2013, 07:39:40
As promised in the 40% thread, two designs:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14443.jpg)

The one at the top is based on a pair of the 4x5 modules I'm designing, the one on the bottom would be a different board entirely.

I am disappoint. You were supposed to finish it by the end of yesterday. You're fired.


I kid, I kid! Really, I think that it looks quite good! I don't think that I could ever live without a dedicated number row, but I know of a number of people who would be suited to it perfectly.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Ascendancy
Post by: TheSoulhunter on Sat, 24 August 2013, 08:53:53
Is the keyless space at the top is needed for controller?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Ascendancy
Post by: daerid on Sat, 24 August 2013, 11:32:01
As promised in the 40% thread, two designs:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14443.jpg)

The one at the top is based on a pair of the 4x5 modules I'm designing, the one on the bottom would be a different board entirely.

Bottom one is WIN
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Ascendancy
Post by: daerid on Sat, 24 August 2013, 11:41:59
my guess you keep the keyboard far away from your body. Because if like most people you keep the keyboard as low and close to your belly as possible, you have to angle it (3rd design) or significantly distance the 2 halves, otherwise the wrists become totally bent.

Generally speaking, I usually keep my keyboard farther away than I should. But even when I put the keyboard at the "proper" ergonomic position I don't bend my wrist. Dunno what to tell you. My natural tendencies are to keep my wrists completely straight, and adjust with the fingers. Probably from two decades of guitar playing. Right now I'm typing this on my FC660C on my lap with my shoulders back and upper arms completely vertical, the insides of my forearms are actually resting against my belly (got a bit of a paunch). Wrists are still straight, but my fingers curl progressively outward (index is straight, pinky is most curled). It probably helps that my fingers are over 4" long.

pretty much what sordna said. I keep mine as near to my waist level as much as I can, and I require it angled quite a bit to keep my wrists totally straight. To keep it at the waist perfectly straight would require me to put the halves further apart, at shoulder width like kurplop has mentioned. Sordna's guess is probably accurate - the keyboard is probably further away than your body compared to most.

but daerid, have you considered the distance between the two halves of the ergodox? due to the design of the thumb cluster, there is a minimum distance of about 4 to 5 keys (1x size) that cannot be bridged, whereas on design 1 (for the nonsplit), the length between the two 'halves' is 2 key's width. Unless one uses the keyboard in a way that keeps their arms (yes, arms, not wrists) stretched far away from their body (in theory, further away than where your ergodox is right now), there will likely be ulnar deviation.

See above. You can't really get less distance between two sides of a keyboard than your typical staggered QWERTY layout. I am perfectly confident that the non-angled layout would pose no ergonomic problems for me.

I also realize that I am probably in the minority. As kurplop stated above, what is ergonomic is different for every individual. Yes, common patterns have emerged, but that doesn't mean they are absolute.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Ascendancy
Post by: TheQsanity on Sat, 24 August 2013, 12:27:45
I hope I don't miss this once it get into GB phase.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Ascendancy
Post by: MOZ on Sun, 25 August 2013, 08:33:41
I hope I don't miss this once it get into GB phase.
 

There is plenty of time before that phase.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Ascendancy
Post by: AcidFire on Sun, 25 August 2013, 16:09:17
I hope I don't miss this once it get into GB phase.
 

There is plenty of time before that phase.
When I put up the Kickstarter campaign, I plan to offer a couple of early bird reward levels that will be limited to 50-100 units that I should be able to get out by christmas. The rest will be uncapped so that as many people as possible can jump in (which benefits everyone.)

The 2nd would be awesome with some sort of hinge in the middle to split it...
Yeah, agreed, maybe at the top and BT would make ti perfect.
Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.

Is the keyless space at the top is needed for controller?
To match the current functionality yes, as it not only is space for the main controller, but also for things like the LED backlighting.

So for the modular system itself, I've decided to call it Ascendancy. Will probably keep the GP for the split boards, will have to come up with something other than straight or ergo for the 75% boards.

Why "ascendancy"? That's a word that doesn't immediately suggest to me what you're trying to do with the project (not that I have a better one ATM mind you).

I think that it sounds cool.
TBH, this was part of the reason. It's also a bit based on some of the marketing training I've done, as well as finding a name that sounds... fancy. While names like Storm or Orb Weaver wouldn't make make a gamer or geek think twice, they tend to be less appealing to a general audience. I went with ascendancy because... well it sounds cool for one. I also think that it is a bit fitting, because a modular keyboard that allow you put something together that suits you, is the next level (trying so hard to say this without sounding conceited.)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Ascendancy
Post by: MOZ on Sun, 25 August 2013, 16:17:40
I would suggest a hinge  at the top, so that you can rotate the two halves about it at some angle to create an inverse v shape for ergonomics.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Ascendancy
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 26 August 2013, 04:35:38
I would suggest a hinge  at the top, so that you can rotate the two halves about it at some angle to create an inverse v shape for ergonomics.
My concern with a hinge at the top is that it would need to be either very big/thick acrylic, or something else entirely and even then it's still very much a weakpoint. A hinge splitting it right down the middle might be possible and would allow it to fold up or tent with little effort.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Ascendancy
Post by: MOZ on Mon, 26 August 2013, 04:38:29
I would suggest a hinge  at the top, so that you can rotate the two halves about it at some angle to create an inverse v shape for ergonomics.
My concern with a hinge at the top is that it would need to be either very big/thick acrylic, or something else entirely and even then it's still very much a weakpoint. A hinge splitting it right down the middle might be possible and would allow it  to fold up or tent with little effort.

I understand your concern, but the hing in either position have different aaplications.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Ascendancy
Post by: wiredPANDA on Mon, 26 August 2013, 09:34:46
This is turning into the end-all be-all for custom keyboards, for me.  75%, 40%, updated ErgoDox layout, numpad...

</slow clap>
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Ascendancy
Post by: do_Og@n on Mon, 26 August 2013, 12:37:16
This is turning into the end-all be-all for custom keyboards, for me.  75%, 40%, updated ErgoDox layout, numpad...

</slow clap>

I think what he means is...

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Ascendancy
Post by: FiskFisk33 on Mon, 26 August 2013, 23:00:00
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/J---aiyznGQ/0.jpg)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Ascendancy
Post by: TheSoulhunter on Tue, 27 August 2013, 00:16:27
Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.

Split for ergonomic...
So people can adjust it to their liking (and perhaps fix it by tightening a screw).

[attachimg=1]

Thought of a inverted V fold as in the mock-up,
but perhaps 2 axis folding could be archived with some sort of ball-joint?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Ascendancy
Post by: TheSoulhunter on Tue, 27 August 2013, 00:28:33
Perhaps adding a "metal backing" with hinge would work...

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Ascendancy
Post by: sordna on Tue, 27 August 2013, 03:26:16
Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.

Split for ergonomic...
So people can adjust it to their liking (and perhaps fix it by tightening a screw).

(Attachment Link)

Thought of a inverted V fold as in the mock-up,
but perhaps 2 axis folding could be archived with some sort of ball-joint?

That would be cool, like a Goldtouch or similar, so it can be tented!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Ascendancy
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 27 August 2013, 04:19:45
Perhaps adding a "metal backing" with hinge would work...

(Attachment Link)
Problem is, the boards act like a lever on the hinge, and warping it is still an easy possibility.

Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.

Split for ergonomic...
So people can adjust it to their liking (and perhaps fix it by tightening a screw).

(Attachment Link)

Thought of a inverted V fold as in the mock-up,
but perhaps 2 axis folding could be archived with some sort of ball-joint?

That would be cool, like a Goldtouch or similar, so it can be tented!
Would love to be able to do that, but would have to be something down the line since it would have to be injection molded (expensive :( )
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Ascendancy
Post by: FiskFisk33 on Tue, 27 August 2013, 07:51:39
Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.

Split for ergonomic...
So people can adjust it to their liking (and perhaps fix it by tightening a screw).

(Attachment Link)

Thought of a inverted V fold as in the mock-up,
but perhaps 2 axis folding could be archived with some sort of ball-joint?

Why hinge at all when you could just split it?
like the original ergogp idea.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Ascendancy
Post by: vatin on Tue, 27 August 2013, 08:08:39
Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.

Split for ergonomic...
So people can adjust it to their liking (and perhaps fix it by tightening a screw).

(Attachment Link)

Thought of a inverted V fold as in the mock-up,
but perhaps 2 axis folding could be archived with some sort of ball-joint?

Why hinge at all when you could just split it?
like the original ergogp idea.
I think the op is planning to do multiple variations, both split and non split.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Ascendancy
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 27 August 2013, 11:25:20
Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.

Split for ergonomic...
So people can adjust it to their liking (and perhaps fix it by tightening a screw).

(Attachment Link)

Thought of a inverted V fold as in the mock-up,
but perhaps 2 axis folding could be archived with some sort of ball-joint?

Why hinge at all when you could just split it?
like the original ergogp idea.
I think the op is planning to do multiple variations, both split and non split.

Exactly this. With modular pads a number of options open up for different cases which can be developed quickly because the electronics don't need a redesign for different layouts or styles.

Speaking of which, I finally finished with the left thumb board design which will be my test bed for the new control ICs before I order the rest of the boards. To illustrate what changed (and why the design took so long), here's a comparison between the previous design & the new one.
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/pcb-comparison2.png)
While the new boards lose the ability to be reversible, they gain a much better control system with greater flexibility & less chance of something going wrong or failing. There are also libraries written for them already, reducing development & QA time.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Ascendancy
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 27 August 2013, 11:36:46
Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.

Split for ergonomic...
So people can adjust it to their liking (and perhaps fix it by tightening a screw).

(Attachment Link)

Thought of a inverted V fold as in the mock-up,
but perhaps 2 axis folding could be archived with some sort of ball-joint?

Why hinge at all when you could just split it?
like the original ergogp idea.
I think the op is planning to do multiple variations, both split and non split.

Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.

Split for ergonomic...
So people can adjust it to their liking (and perhaps fix it by tightening a screw).

(Attachment Link)

Thought of a inverted V fold as in the mock-up,
but perhaps 2 axis folding could be archived with some sort of ball-joint?

Why hinge at all when you could just split it?
like the original ergogp idea.
I think the op is planning to do multiple variations, both split and non split.

Exactly this. With modular pads a number of options open up for different cases which can be developed quickly because the electronics don't need a redesign for different layouts or styles.

Speaking of which, I finally finished with the left thumb board design which will be my test bed for the new control ICs before I order the rest of the boards. To illustrate what changed (and why the design took so long), here's a comparison between the previous design & the new one.
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/pcb-comparison2.png)

While the new boards lose the ability to be reversible, they gain a much better control system with greater flexibility & less chance of something going wrong or failing. There are also libraries written for them already, reducing development & QA time.

Which side is the controller on?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 27 August 2013, 12:08:26
On those layouts blue is back, red is front.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 27 August 2013, 12:14:03
On those layouts blue is back, red is front.

I meant left or right half.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 27 August 2013, 12:15:36
On those layouts blue is back, red is front.

I meant left or right half.
The controller is still a separate board, that can be placed in either the left or right half.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 27 August 2013, 12:21:56
On those layouts blue is back, red is front.

I meant left or right half.
The controller is still a separate board, that can be placed in either the left or right half.

Can the half with the controller in it work without the other half?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 27 August 2013, 12:29:40
Yes. The system is designed to auto detect what is connected to it. Anything that hasn't been connected to it before will have defaults loaded, which can then be changed in the software. Because of the way the addressing system works, if you have a half that has the main keypad go bad and can't be fixed, you can drop in a new one with the same address & the controller will act like it was never gone.

I have some ideas for the software & firmware that would load different profiles (which contain all your layers) depending on what is connected to it. So if you had the split setup, and removed the right half, the remaining would switch to it's profile that is loaded with the layers for your favorite games. This may not be possible with the ATMEGA32u4 I'm starting with, but when I make the jump to something ARM based that should be very doable.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: wesleyh on Tue, 27 August 2013, 12:37:36
Did the name change again?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 27 August 2013, 12:38:02
Yes. The system is designed to auto detect what is connected to it. Anything that hasn't been connected to it before will have defaults loaded, which can then be changed in the software. Because of the way the addressing system works, if you have a half that has the main keypad go bad and can't be fixed, you can drop in a new one with the same address & the controller will act like it was never gone.

I have some ideas for the software & firmware that would load different profiles (which contain all your layers) depending on what is connected to it. So if you had the split setup, and removed the right half, the remaining would switch to it's profile that is loaded with the layers for your favorite games. This may not be possible with the ATMEGA32u4 I'm starting with, but when I make the jump to something ARM based that should be very doable.

YUS!

So I could just use the left half while gaming, Orbweaver style?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 27 August 2013, 12:40:44
Did the name change again?

Shhh that was suppose to be sneaky ;) I thought a bit more about it, and with some feedback from others did a bit more research into a name that would actually suit what was going on with the project. TBH I've been on so many projects that have had their name changed a dozen times before release that changing it on a bit of a whim doesn't seem all that unusual to me. I will however say that I am much happier with this name and don't plan on changing it again.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 27 August 2013, 12:42:15
Did the name change again?

Shhh that was suppose to be sneaky ;) I thought a bit more about it, and with some feedback from others did a bit more research into a name that would actually suit what was going on with the project. TBH I've been on so many projects that have had their name changed a dozen times before release that changing it on a bit of a whim doesn't seem all that unusual to me. I will however say that I am much happier with this name and don't plan on changing it again.

It's a cool name, if google doesn't sue you.


Can't wait for the beta.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Demonmaker on Tue, 27 August 2013, 13:18:00
So I could just use the left half while gaming, Orbweaver style?

I'd want it like this too on many an occasion
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 27 August 2013, 13:19:28
So I could just use the left half while gaming, Orbweaver style?

I'd want it like this too on many an occasion

That would be sooooo awesome.

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 27 August 2013, 13:43:42
Yes, this will be entirely possible and is one of the reasons the controller is separate from the keypads.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 27 August 2013, 15:03:14
YUSSS!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: wiredPANDA on Tue, 27 August 2013, 20:29:38
And here I was talking myself out of the split board, since I have two ErgoDoxes.  I WAS going to contain myself to the 75% and 40% boards, but now... Now, this.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: MOZ on Tue, 27 August 2013, 22:07:47
AcidFire, how about something like this:

(http://i.imgur.com/Yn6a3tI.png)

BLue is one hand, red is the other, green is a bot joining the two hands.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: daerid on Tue, 27 August 2013, 22:07:48
It's a cool name, if google doesn't sue you.


Can't wait for the beta.

Hate to be a party pooper, but it looks like this might be on dangerous ground here. From Google's list of trademarks: (http://www.google.com/permissions/trademark/our-trademarks.html)

Quote
• Nexus™ family of marks for mobile devices and peripherals
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: spspencer on Tue, 27 August 2013, 22:25:56
I don't think Google will notice unless/until the keyboard went mainstream. I wouldn't want to fight the big "G" over a product name, but the publicity might be good...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 28 August 2013, 00:20:26
For now, I'm not worried. There are other devices out there with the Nexus name, it all depends on how you use it. The only thing I find concerning is the peripherals bit, so I think as long as I skip mentioning the Nexus series in general when talking about compatibility and instead go with something like "Android Devices w/ Bluetooth 4" I should be ok. It is something I will look into a bit more however.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: MOZ on Wed, 28 August 2013, 08:37:34
Got a chance to look at my idea, thoughts?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Ascendancy
Post by: agodinhost on Wed, 28 August 2013, 09:55:52
Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.

Split for ergonomic...
So people can adjust it to their liking (and perhaps fix it by tightening a screw).

(Attachment Link)

Thought of a inverted V fold as in the mock-up,
but perhaps 2 axis folding could be archived with some sort of ball-joint?
Hmmmm, awesome idea ...
I'm working into one layout close to this one, however, I haven't thought about this splitting screw.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 28 August 2013, 11:35:46
Giving it some more thought, with the 6mm acrylic involved in the hinge I think it might be less prone to breakage. I'll have to put one together and toss it around a bit in a bag to be sure.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Thimplum on Wed, 28 August 2013, 11:38:44
I would worry about the hinge sliding around while I'm typing.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 28 August 2013, 11:40:19
I'm planning to use a nice thumbscrew so that you can position it the way you want and then lock it in. When your done and need to pack it up, you just loosen it, straighten the board out, and lock it again.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: MOZ on Wed, 28 August 2013, 12:03:15
I'm planning to use a nice thumbscrew so that you can position it the way you want and then lock it in. When your done and need to pack it up, you just loosen it, straighten the board out, and lock it again.

That was the idea.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: sordna on Thu, 29 August 2013, 01:02:28
AcidFire, you gotta see this, adjustable columns:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45389.0
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Thimplum on Thu, 29 August 2013, 08:57:32
AcidFire, you gotta see this, adjustable columns:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45389.0

I think that he has.

From the thread:

I had the same thought when I was retooling the grid spacing on my design, but couldn't get past the idea of how to work the case. It's fantastic to see the concept in action, awesome work!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kps on Thu, 29 August 2013, 17:37:19
Couple remarks/questions so far.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 29 August 2013, 17:55:38
Couple remarks/questions so far.
  • I'm not a big fan of the ErgoDox style 1.5u keys, which I assume descend from Kinesis' 1.25u outer keys. Not a big fan to the extent that I cut up my Kinesis (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=26579.msg654280#msg654280) to ‘fix’ it. The wide keys have a high cost in terms of keycap layout flexibility for, as I see it, no real benefit.
  • Forgive me if I missed it, but I don't quite follow how multiple modules connect together. I see I²C mentioned, and on some PCBs (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg1017002#msg1017002) what appears to be a single TRRS footprint, ErgoDox style (originally my suggestion (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg511086#msg511086), yay for me), but not how multiple modules are connected. I assume they're not daisy-chained, since I see only one connector — are they run in a star to the controller? I²C is not supposed to be used that way… do you find it works anyway? Has it been tried with longer cables (e.g. around the back of a chair, for armrest mounts)?

1. This is something I've been pondering as well, from both size & cost benefits. I believe it decends from keyboard design in general, where modifier keys on the left/right side of the board are a different size to help distinguish them from standard keys. Whether this is actually necessary remains to be seen, but I do know right now that the space underneath them is where I'm running the traces for power+usb+i2c for where the controller is designed to sit. I do have some ideas in mind.

2. I haven't posted the newest layout designs aside from the completed thumb board, but the thumbboards currently have a single TRRS connection point, and the main keypads have a pair of them to allow connection from a couple of positions or for additional modules to connect to them. All the boards also have multiple internal i2c 4 pin connection ports. As for running the devices in a star and issues that would arise from that, I've never heard of that and we've never seen that sort of issue at the office, and we sell a number of i2c based devices. How they connect to each other will come down to how you have them configured or rather what you're using. I'm being a bit vague because I have some really cool stuff I'm working on that I don't want to spoil just yet :)

As for cable length, there are a number of factors that play into the length you can use i2c without issue, but something like what you suggested should be well within the realm of possibility.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kps on Thu, 29 August 2013, 21:02:11
1. This is something I've been pondering as well, from both size & cost benefits. I believe it decends from keyboard design in general, where modifier keys on the left/right side of the board are a different size to help distinguish them from standard keys.

Typewriters traditionally had slightly larger shift keys,
[attach=1]
but after that wider keys seemed to be mostly used to square up a layout, and there was a mix of keyboards that did and those that didn't.
[attach=2][attach=3]
Eventually the influence of the IBM PC took over, and everyone went square…

As for running the devices in a star and issues that would arise from that, I've never heard of that and we've never seen that sort of issue at the office, and we sell a number of i2c based devices.
Good to know. I've seen dire warnings about I²C busses and termination issues and such, but I'm a software guy, so your colleagues' experience is reassuring, especially since they probably have an electrically noisier environment.

I've gone for SPI for this purpose, and then, already being beyond the photo jack capacity, brought across the I/O expander interrupt pin as well, which could allow the controller to avoid polling and go to sleep, which (as I fantasize without actually measuring) might be good for battery life in a future wireless version.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 29 August 2013, 21:39:38
1. This is something I've been pondering as well, from both size & cost benefits. I believe it decends from keyboard design in general, where modifier keys on the left/right side of the board are a different size to help distinguish them from standard keys.

Typewriters traditionally had slightly larger shift keys,
(Attachment Link)
but after that wider keys seemed to be mostly used to square up a layout, and there was a mix of keyboards that did and those that didn't.
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
Eventually the influence of the IBM PC took over, and everyone went square…

As for running the devices in a star and issues that would arise from that, I've never heard of that and we've never seen that sort of issue at the office, and we sell a number of i2c based devices.
Good to know. I've seen dire warnings about I²C busses and termination issues and such, but I'm a software guy, so your colleagues' experience is reassuring, especially since they probably have an electrically noisier environment.

I've gone for SPI for this purpose, and then, already being beyond the photo jack capacity, brought across the I/O expander interrupt pin as well, which could allow the controller to avoid polling and go to sleep, which (as I fantasize without actually measuring) might be good for battery life in a future wireless version.
I've been looking at that as well, but there are other ways around it. I'll be running tests to see what kind of draw there is both with and without the backlight, but I know that typically it's very low when the expanders are in use.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Moosecraft on Sun, 01 September 2013, 08:53:37
How is progress with this?
Reaching GB status anytime soon? :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: fisofo on Sun, 01 September 2013, 14:31:46

Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14190.jpg)



AcidFire: A bit off-topic, but what are the little caps on the bottom of the screws in this picture protecting the desk? Can you link to where I can get them?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: daerid on Mon, 02 September 2013, 00:01:04
^^^^ I would like to know as well.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 03 September 2013, 12:49:39

Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14190.jpg)



AcidFire: A bit off-topic, but what are the little caps on the bottom of the screws in this picture protecting the desk? Can you link to where I can get them?
It's something we stock for some of our kits, but we don't normally sell them seperately. I'll talk to my boss later and see if I can get them to let me sell some.

How is progress with this?
Reaching GB status anytime soon? :)
Currently waiting on the new test boards to come in so I can be sure the electronics work the way they should. I ordered it friday, and it mentioned that it should be ready to be sent to me by the 10th. I went with OSHPark this time, who are based in the US so I should get it a lot faster this time. I've also got all the electronics on hand and ready to go for when it comes in. Once they've been tested and I can feel confident ordering boards, I'll notify the selected beta testing applicants that they can order their hardware. After that, the actual campaign to fund proper production will all come down to beta testing feedback.

On the note of the beta testing kits, I've updated a bit as to what I'll be including with them:

Electronics:
Casing, Choice Of:
There is a strong possibility of including all three case designs in a single kit, it will all come down to costs.

Switches & Assembly
Some of you have mentioned that you've already got switches set aside for this, as well as caps so your kits will only be charged the cost of electronics + case. For those who can't assemble your own, I will be able do so as well as provide switches & caps (limited selection unfortunately.) Pricing TBD, but should be in line with what I mentioned before. ($110-120 full kit, less without switches & caps.)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: wiredPANDA on Tue, 03 September 2013, 12:57:27
That quoted price makes me happy.  And I can't wait to start seeing beta tester posts start showing up on here once they can start reviewing.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: hoggy on Tue, 03 September 2013, 13:05:53
I don't want to appear too greedy, but I'll happily pay for all three variants.  I'd be surprised if I'm alone in that regard.

Really impressed with the work you've done - very inventive coupled with attention to feedback.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 03 September 2013, 13:07:04
Dat price...

And I thought that the previous ~$150 was a good deal for a beta kit! I'll still keep $150 set aside, just in case.

Once I get a beta kit, I'd like to make a daily updated blog on GH of my experience with it.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: hoggy on Tue, 03 September 2013, 14:10:05
That sounds like a good idea. I'll have a go at the same.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 03 September 2013, 15:19:58
I don't want to appear too greedy, but I'll happily pay for all three variants.  I'd be surprised if I'm alone in that regard.

Really impressed with the work you've done - very inventive coupled with attention to feedback.
Would you be looking for three complete kits or just enough parts to try each layout? And I'm glad you like the work, I've put a fair amount of time and thought in. And to me, not listening to feedback or having proper testing done by those who want to use this sort of thing is one of the biggest mistakes I could make in this. I could not have come this far without all of the input from you guys and a few others.

Dat price...

And I thought that the previous ~$150 was a good deal for a beta kit! I'll still keep $150 set aside, just in case.

Once I get a beta kit, I'd like to make a daily updated blog on GH of my experience with it.
I've already been offered a spot in the retailer forums for the lasering service, and I'm sure I could set something up there for beta tester blogs. Barring that, I do plan to put up a forum on my site for this sort of thing, if only to provide an avenue for easy feedback/discussion.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Moosecraft on Tue, 03 September 2013, 15:31:36
In for a split and maybe a 70%, both preassembled because I'm lazy :p
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: fisofo on Tue, 03 September 2013, 18:21:36
No idea if I'm in the beta or not, but either way: At that price I'll seriously consider getting two different kits.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: daerid on Tue, 03 September 2013, 18:46:43
I'm in for the 70% (DERP)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 03 September 2013, 19:04:37
(http://i.qkme.me/3voih3.jpg)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 03 September 2013, 19:27:05
I'm in for the 70% (DERP)
To be clear, that price isn't the final, just the production cost of the beta units. I'm still targeting for $200.00 for the full kits when they're ready, and less (probably around $160-180) for the straight boards. As much as I'd love to make them cheaper, I do need to make some kind of profit so I can hopefully justify working on them and future additions full time.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: anotherjunkie on Tue, 03 September 2013, 20:00:31
This is great news! I can't wait for these to start rolling off the production line.

I'll also be one that's posting my opinions once I get the boards, beta or otherwise. I'm disabled with significant hand problems (my fingers and thumbs dislocate all the time, more frequently while typing on a standard keyboard), and these keyboards actually look like they have the potential to get me working on the computer again.

I think it's important for my impressions to be out there so that people in a similar position can find this (for themselves) and help move AcidFire's product forward in a new segment of the population. I can't wait to use the board myself, and to post a review of the boards.

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: fisofo on Tue, 03 September 2013, 20:01:13
Roger that AcidFire, that of course makes sense!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 03 September 2013, 20:14:47
AcidFire: What do you think of the feel of the DSA frosted caps from SP? How close do they feel to standard ABS?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: MOZ on Tue, 03 September 2013, 21:37:52
AcidFire. It would be  great if you could test the hinge mechanism I posted earlier.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Larken on Tue, 03 September 2013, 21:40:11
certainly wouldn't mind testing more than one layout if I'm in the beta. the regular ergogp would be an interesting comparison to the ergodox and the ergo 70% definitely has caught my interest. from the plate cutouts posted in the thread earlier, am I right to assume that you can reuse the same, main alpha clusters in different acrylic cases to achieve the variants with a few additional modules? Certainly would be good to get just enough parts to at least test out the variants involved, and perhaps get a good gauge of how the modularity works should one want to swap the parts around.

That estimated price for a full kit is just astoundingly low, by the way.



Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: JPG on Tue, 03 September 2013, 22:21:22
Nice to see the split version will have different size, but do you have any tip to how to choose a size? Based on your hands size?

Can't wait to see this anyway!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: daerid on Tue, 03 September 2013, 22:24:19
To be clear, that price isn't the final, just the production cost of the beta units. I'm still targeting for $200.00 for the full kits when they're ready, and less (probably around $160-180) for the straight boards. As much as I'd love to make them cheaper, I do need to make some kind of profit so I can hopefully justify working on them and future additions full time.

There's absolutely ZERO reason you shouldn't make some sort of profit on this. This project is miles above most others that come up around here, and so far your quality is top-notch. You should be rewarded for your time, effort, and ingenuity. And also profits mean that you can continue to do so!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Moosecraft on Wed, 04 September 2013, 00:19:11
Quote from: AcidFire link=topic=44940.msg1027604#msg1027604 date=1378
254425
To be clear, that price isn't the final, just the production cost of the beta units. I'm still targeting for $200.00 for the full kits when they're ready, and less (probably around $160-180) for the straight boards. As much as I'd love to make them cheaper, I do need to make some kind of profit so I can hopefully justify working on them and future additions full time.

There's absolutely ZERO reason you shouldn't make some sort of profit on this. This project is miles above most others that come up around here, and so far your quality is top-notch. You should be rewarded for your time, effort, and ingenuity. And also profits mean that you can continue to do so!
This^
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 04 September 2013, 00:23:13
AcidFire: What do you think of the feel of the DSA frosted caps from SP? How close do they feel to standard ABS?
I don't have anything working yet that I can test with, but so far they feel very similar to ABS.

Nice to see the split version will have different size, but do you have any tip to how to choose a size? Based on your hands size?
Can't wait to see this anyway!
TBH it's mostly going to be trial & error, this is where I may swallow the cost a bit and anyone who orders the split for beta will get all three sizes to test. From there I can hopefully get some metrics to help people figure out what size suits them.

There's absolutely ZERO reason you shouldn't make some sort of profit on this. This project is miles above most others that come up around here, and so far your quality is top-notch. You should be rewarded for your time, effort, and ingenuity. And also profits mean that you can continue to do so!
Very much appreciate the thought. I would love to be able to do this full time, and I'm working toward that end hopefully. Right now I'm happy with the cost vs price.

AcidFire. It would be  great if you could test the hinge mechanism I posted earlier.
I will get to it, however I'm currently focused on finishing the first three designs. Once I've gotten those out of the way and am waiting for parts for the beta, I'm going to work on the bluetooth modules & 40% parts.

certainly wouldn't mind testing more than one layout if I'm in the beta. the regular ergogp would be an interesting comparison to the ergodox and the ergo 70% definitely has caught my interest. from the plate cutouts posted in the thread earlier, am I right to assume that you can reuse the same, main alpha clusters in different acrylic cases to achieve the variants with a few additional modules? Certainly would be good to get just enough parts to at least test out the variants involved, and perhaps get a good gauge of how the modularity works should one want to swap the parts around.

That estimated price for a full kit is just astoundingly low, by the way.

Do you mean the beta kit price, or the production price? I've found a couple of parts that not only reduce the size of the PCBs, but are also 20% of the existing part. My only issue is that I have to order a minimum of $1000 just in jacks, to have enough to build the beta units. Unfortunately, they'll only let me order a sample of 50, and I need 300~ to do the beta boards. I may have a way around this that I'll be investigating tomorrow.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Larken on Wed, 04 September 2013, 00:41:05
Do you mean the beta kit price, or the production price? I've found a couple of parts that not only reduce the size of the PCBs, but are also 20% of the existing part. My only issue is that I have to order a minimum of $1000 just in jacks, to have enough to build the beta units. Unfortunately, they'll only let me order a sample of 50, and I need 300~ to do the beta boards. I may have a way around this that I'll be investigating tomorrow.

I was referring to the beta kit prices. Was honestly expecting to have to pay a higher figure, especially seeing as how switches and caps alone, going by massdrop ergodox prices, would run someone between 60 - 80 bucks. A full kit for 110-120 is really.. wow, considering the cost of raw materials, screws, r&d time you spent on this. (definitely not complaining about it though)

The production price of 200 is very attractive too, compared to the current crop of competitors on the market. At 200 for a full kit, it might just be the end of ergodox group buys at massdrop.

Now I'm curious about how you're going to be reducing the pcb size... they already look pretty compact as it is.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: TheSoulhunter on Wed, 04 September 2013, 04:06:51
Interested! Tho I'd prefer surface mount components to be pre-installed, I suck at soldering this stuff ^^;
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: vatin on Wed, 04 September 2013, 09:22:04
I'm surely in for one pre-assembled split version.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 04 September 2013, 13:07:35
I was referring to the beta kit prices. Was honestly expecting to have to pay a higher figure, especially seeing as how switches and caps alone, going by massdrop ergodox prices, would run someone between 60 - 80 bucks. A full kit for 110-120 is really.. wow, considering the cost of raw materials, screws, r&d time you spent on this. (definitely not complaining about it though)

The production price of 200 is very attractive too, compared to the current crop of competitors on the market. At 200 for a full kit, it might just be the end of ergodox group buys at massdrop.

Now I'm curious about how you're going to be reducing the pcb size... they already look pretty compact as it is.
120 is what I'm shooting for, however the price of switches particularly will definitely have an effect on that. I sat down and did a number of revisions to my pricing sheet last night and I may end up closer to the original 150-160 than I was hoping for. Obviously for those who already have switches or caps or both, it'll be much lower (Currently hovering around the 80 mark.)

Interested! Tho I'd prefer surface mount components to be pre-installed, I suck at soldering this stuff ^^;
Both assembled & unassembled kits will come with all the SMD components pre mounted. The only soldering you'll have to do is installing the switches & backlight LEDs.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: JPG on Wed, 04 September 2013, 13:13:29
^^ means I will have to get myself a soldering station quite soon!

Where do we register?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 04 September 2013, 13:16:04
^^ means I will have to get myself a soldering station quite soon!

Where do we register?

If you haven't done so already, you can register here. (http://multiplxd.com/ergogp/beta)

On an unrelated note, I've been wondering how people would feel if I eliminated the 1.5x keys completely, including the two vertical ones?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Wed, 04 September 2013, 13:40:59
^^ means I will have to get myself a soldering station quite soon!

Where do we register?

If you haven't done so already, you can register here. (http://multiplxd.com/ergogp/beta)

On an unrelated note, I've been wondering how people would feel if I eliminated the 1.5x keys completely, including the two vertical ones?

Eliminate or convert to 1x? They're nice, but 1x would probably be just as good. Being gone all together would make for quite the key shortage though.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 04 September 2013, 14:02:35
On an unrelated note, I've been wondering how people would feel if I eliminated the 1.5x keys completely, including the two vertical ones?

Eliminate or convert to 1x? They're nice, but 1x would probably be just as good. Being gone all together would make for quite the key shortage though.
Sorry should have been clear, I'm looking at converting them to 1x. This would also turn the two vertical 1.5x into three 1x, making an extra key available for use.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: FiskFisk33 on Wed, 04 September 2013, 14:07:36
On an unrelated note, I've been wondering how people would feel if I eliminated the 1.5x keys completely, including the two vertical ones?

Eliminate or convert to 1x? They're nice, but 1x would probably be just as good. Being gone all together would make for quite the key shortage though.
Sorry should have been clear, I'm looking at converting them to 1x. This would also turn the two vertical 1.5x into three 1x, making an extra key available for use.

YES.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 04 September 2013, 14:29:04
Aside from lowering the cost of keys and requirements for extra sizes, this also helps to thin out the board as well, which definitely helps with reducing the width of the solid boards for travel. Of course it also reduces the width of the split boards, however there is always the option of using the same size board and offering both, but I think moving away from the 1.5x keys would be a good thing to push for across the board.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: whirm on Wed, 04 September 2013, 15:01:32
Hi everybody! (First post in this forum)

I stumbled upon this thread some weeks ago after discovering the ErgoDox. I was planning on "forking" the design to customize it with a couple of ideas I had.
But then I saw AcidFire's design and it already has everything I was planning to do and then some! Amazing work man!

So here I am, I've already signed up for the beta and I'm hoping Ill be able to help with what I can (I'm a programmer and studied electronics a long time ago).

Cheers!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Moosecraft on Wed, 04 September 2013, 15:17:13
Do you have any pictures or render of the 70% compact one?
Sry If this question has been answered multiple times but it wasn't in the OP.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: spspencer on Wed, 04 September 2013, 16:02:15
^^ means I will have to get myself a soldering station quite soon!

Where do we register?

If you haven't done so already, you can register here. (http://multiplxd.com/ergogp/beta)

On an unrelated note, I've been wondering how people would feel if I eliminated the 1.5x keys completely, including the two vertical ones?

Personally, I like the 1.5 keys. I would sacrifice them for an overall smaller sized board, though.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Thimplum on Wed, 04 September 2013, 16:05:43
I am for eliminating the 1.5 keys. That way, we can just have 1x and 2x, making new keycap finding a lot easier. And we get a few more keys, so there's that too.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 04 September 2013, 16:08:29
Personally, I like the 1.5 keys. I would sacrifice them for an overall smaller sized board, though.
Is there something in particular you like about those keys?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kurplop on Wed, 04 September 2013, 16:58:25
My experimenting with the ErgoDox has led me to the same conclusion. The 1.5 keys take up extra space unnecessarily. I'd go for more keys or a tighter package.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: spspencer on Wed, 04 September 2013, 17:43:25
Personally, I like the 1.5 keys. I would sacrifice them for an overall smaller sized board, though.
Is there something in particular you like about those keys?

Mostly I like the way they look, and they help me rember the key layout. Sorta gives me boundries, you know? I've been qwerty touch typing for 20 years, and now I'm playing with different layouts, it helps me to use the 1.5 keys as landmarks.

Don't get me wrong, given a choice, I would choose a smaller form-factor over the 1.5 keys.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: vatin on Wed, 04 September 2013, 17:50:05
Yeah 1.5 doesn't have real purpose.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: fisofo on Wed, 04 September 2013, 18:10:35
Agreed, 1.5 have not been terribly useful to me; 1's would work fine.
@spspencer: just get colored key caps! :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 04 September 2013, 18:20:19
I've got a set of plates designed to test it out, I'll post pics in a bit when I get home. I'm not lasering new cases to match yet until I know this is where I want to go with it for sure, but in all honesty it's probably what I'm going to go with.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: spspencer on Wed, 04 September 2013, 19:39:03
Agreed, 1.5 have not been terribly useful to me; 1's would work fine.
@spspencer: just get colored key caps! :)

I guess I'm the odd man out; now I gotta get colored key caps!  :p

What I really want to know is about bluetooth. I know AcidFire has it in the works (Thanks!!) I'm wondering if adding bluetooth will take a lot of changes to the circuit board, or is it more like a plug-n-play option.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kps on Wed, 04 September 2013, 19:39:09
One additional advantage of 1u keys is that someone wanting custom keycaps from a place like WASD can make use of the number and cursor areas to fill out the main board, and not have to buy a bunch of expensive individual keycaps.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: sordna on Wed, 04 September 2013, 21:16:27
I too like the 1.5 keys. Using an ergodox for some time now, my hand sometimes shifts off place as I touch type (I hardly ever look down) and I can't really tell except if a finger fall on a differently shaped key. On the Kinesis Advantage things are easier since there are fewer keys and the all have different shapes/depths/angles to help with blind placement of the hands.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: sordna on Wed, 04 September 2013, 21:17:08
delete
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Larken on Wed, 04 September 2013, 22:00:04
mm, I kinda like the 1.5 keys for the sides - for shifting. Never really tried it with 1x keys before, but I suppose it's not a big deal if we lose them. Would prefer to keep the option though.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Loligagger on Wed, 04 September 2013, 22:11:28
I'd prefer 1.5x keys as well, at least on the outside edges of the board (for shift/enter/backspace/etc). It being slightly more expensive as a result would be fine with me.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: TheSoulhunter on Wed, 04 September 2013, 23:58:23
Guess I'd prefer 1.5x keys as well...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Glod on Thu, 05 September 2013, 01:22:13
i like the 1.5x for many reasons, for one they are like the perfect size for how i use them and then there is the fact if you end up using similar ergodox cap units then i can cycle around keycaps from ergodox i have ordered--i like variety and changing around cap designs.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: agor on Thu, 05 September 2013, 03:45:40
Really interested as well, followed the progress since the beginning and want to say your doing an incredible work. I thought about signing up for the beta, but as I'm in Europe that would be too much hassle I guess.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: FiskFisk33 on Thu, 05 September 2013, 04:37:41
Personally I think the keys at the pinky end can be whatever, 1 or 1.5.
though i did like the idea of having four 1u buttons at the index finger end, it did occur to me before while fantasizing layouts and you mentioning it now is like getting my thoughts read.
Anyways I think it would both feel more natural and give more layout possibilities.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 05 September 2013, 12:18:47
After testing out the plates with the 1.5x reduced, I have to say I prefer the 1.5 on the outside edges. That being said, I'm also considering a bit of a compromise and reducing them to 1.25x. While this breaks compatibility with the ErgoDox kits, these are also sizes that seem to be more commonly found, particularly in full board kits, and allows for a bit of a size reduction still of the boards. There is also something to be said for the fact that 1.5 are more common in SP's inventory than 1.25, so I think this needs a bit more research.

Whatever I end up deciding for the sides, I am going to change the two vertical 1.5x to three 1x as I see no point to them being 1.5x and having the extra key could definitely be useful.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Thimplum on Thu, 05 September 2013, 12:21:25
I was just thinking, it might be a good idea to keep the edge keys bigger than the rest of the keys. I now remember how I hate tiny shift keys.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: sordna on Thu, 05 September 2013, 23:20:26
After testing out the plates with the 1.5x reduced, I have to say I prefer the 1.5 on the outside edges. That being said, I'm also considering a bit of a compromise and reducing them to 1.25x. While this breaks compatibility with the ErgoDox kits, these are also sizes that seem to be more commonly found, particularly in full board kits, and allows for a bit of a size reduction still of the boards. There is also something to be said for the fact that 1.5 are more common in SP's inventory than 1.25, so I think this needs a bit more research.

Whatever I end up deciding for the sides, I am going to change the two vertical 1.5x to three 1x as I see no point to them being 1.5x and having the extra key could definitely be useful.

Kinesis Advantage uses 1.25, that size works too.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: daerid on Thu, 05 September 2013, 23:50:26
Another +1 for keeping the 1.5 keys, on both the inside and the outside. I don't think I'd really like a completely homogeneous keyboard. Plus, I use one of the vertical 1.5x keys for enter, and having a 1x enter key just feels wrong
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 06 September 2013, 00:16:43
For now, I'm going to work with the idea of 1.5x outside, with the verticals replaced by 3 keys, but this is still subject to some testing.

On a seperate note, while evaluating package options for control ICs to reduce package size, I've figured out a few things that helps negate what was an increase in cost when I decided to change the controllers.

1) The LED controller I had selected, the PCA9685, is a 12-bit PWM controller. This is extreme overkill, especially with backlighting control of a single color. As for the onboard indicator LEDs, this is again a bit much, and so they will be replaced with a PCA9634 & PCA9635 instead. These chips offer the same functionality as the PCA9685, minus the bit depth, at a lower price. The PCA9634 is also smaller, and will be used for the thumb clusters. This will help me keep the price targets I'm aiming for.
2) The PCA9635s will also find a home in the RGB backlighting project, helping to keep the price lower than expected. There is still some development needed, to help finalize the price.
3) Unlike the PCA9685, the PCA9635 doesn't require FET drivers, again lowering the price without needing the FETs or their pullup resistors.
4) The I/O expander I'm planning to use for the keypads is the PCA9555A. As mentioned previously, I can use up to 8 devices on the same address. I had some concerns that when adding devices like external pads, LCDs, etc. that it would prevent the addition of things like foot switches. Going over the datasheet for the PCA9554A, which is an 8-bit version of the PCA9555A, the device's prefixed address is different. What this means is that there is a possibility of greater expansion past the original 8 devices, depending on what you're doing.

TL;DR Version
Lots of good R&D stuff that means the $120 beta cost & $200 retail are much more feasible.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Demonmaker on Fri, 06 September 2013, 07:16:46
TL;DR Version
Lots of good R&D stuff that means the $120 beta cost & $200 retail are much more feasible.

Smashing  ;D
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 06 September 2013, 08:04:09
That's awesome.

Will the beta testers get any access to the firmware source? I'd love to try my hand at messing around with that.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kps on Fri, 06 September 2013, 10:47:15
For now, I'm going to work with the idea of 1.5x outside, with the verticals replaced by 3 keys, but this is still subject to some testing
Though I'd prefer 1u, I do think 1.5u is preferable to 1.25u.

Would it be practical (i.e. not cost more, not be too much effort) to give the PCB extra pads in the 1u locations (similar to what Phantom has)? If you're using Eagle I think this would be most easily done with an alternate package of the switch device (and I'd be happy to create the package if it would help). Actually, that would probably satisfy the people who want 1.5u in the middle, too.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 06 September 2013, 10:55:43
For now, I'm going to work with the idea of 1.5x outside, with the verticals replaced by 3 keys, but this is still subject to some testing
Though I'd prefer 1u, I do think 1.5u is preferable to 1.25u.

Would it be practical (i.e. not cost more, not be too much effort) to give the PCB extra pads in the 1u locations (similar to what Phantom has)? If you're using Eagle I think this would be most easily done with an alternate package of the switch device (and I'd be happy to create the package if it would help). Actually, that would probably satisfy the people who want 1.5u in the middle, too.

I've already looked at this, and it doesn't work with the LEDs, their placement causes problems with doing a shift-able mount. Also, as it was already pointed out, the 1.5u keys help to make the kit compatible with the ergodox kits that are out there.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 06 September 2013, 23:57:31
I've been doing a fair bit of coding & testing the last couple of days with what I had planned to use for a controller, and after a fair bit of research today to address the concerns I had, I've decided on the following:

1) I'm switching to an ARM based controller, specifically the NXP LPC11U37FBD48/401, a Cortex M0 ARM processor running at 50mhz with 128kb flash, 10kb ram, and two SPI controllers. The main attraction is an I2C controller capable of taking advantage of the Fm+ that all the expanders & LED cpntrollers support, more than doubling the 400kbit of the ATMEGA32u4, supporting up to 1mbit. Additionally, this controller has the USB profiles for HID, MSD & CDC built in, and a fairly straight forward method of implimenting a composite USB device. This eliminates one of the major headaches I was expecting to fight with the bootloader on the ATMEGA32u4. There are countless other reasons this move benefits the project that I won't go into, except...

2) With more RAM and the ability have the device mount as a storage device, Profiles & Macros will be stored on a MicroSD card that will be included as part of the base kit. The result is two fold, you'll be able to edit profiles & macros with just a text editor, and you should also be able to take the configuration software with you as well. I don't know if it'll be fast enough to make it worth taking other files, but thats also a possibility.

3) I've selected the bluetooth radio, the Nordic nRF8001, which is a LE bluetooth 4 controller. I still have some numbers to work out, but it should be possible to bring down what was the original estimate for the kit.

Everything will still be coded in C, and the firmware will be made available once the beta test is ready to go.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: nazarie on Sat, 07 September 2013, 00:42:29
Ok, THAT was a marathon read.  All 27 pages and I was sad there weren't more. :)

I'm totally in love with this project.  If you need some firmware help, feel free to PM me.  I'm a programmer at my day job and I've programmed for Cortex M3 chips for my quadcopter hobby/obsession.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Sat, 07 September 2013, 00:52:29
Ok, THAT was a marathon read.  All 27 pages and I was sad there weren't more. :)

I'm totally in love with this project.  If you need some firmware help, feel free to PM me.  I'm a programmer at my day job and I've programmed for Cortex M3 chips for my quadcopter hobby/obsession.
I will definitely take you up on that :D I'll be designing a test board over the weekend for the M0 and hopefully before the end of the month the first complete firmware will be in testing.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: fydo on Sat, 07 September 2013, 10:44:41
Totally interested! Also super cool that you live so close to me.

If you're going to be loading profiles & macros from a file system, I think it would be a great opportunity to create a web-based layout and macro editor. Loading and exporting text files should be easy enough. I don't have a ton of spare time, but that is something I'd like to contribute.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 09 September 2013, 01:52:13
Totally interested! Also super cool that you live so close to me.

If you're going to be loading profiles & macros from a file system, I think it would be a great opportunity to create a web-based layout and macro editor. Loading and exporting text files should be easy enough. I don't have a ton of spare time, but that is something I'd like to contribute.

Funny enough, I'm a web dev and this didn't even occur to me right away lol. But I've since got most of what the site's functionality should be mapped out, should be fun to put together while I'm waiting for the parts for the beta kits to come in when the time comes.

As I previously mentioned, I've been working on a new CPU board:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/arm-in-progress.png)
While the new board is longer, it's also thinner and it also integrates the MicroSD reader. It also tightens up the connector spacing, using smaller 2mm connectors and better spacing.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: spspencer on Mon, 09 September 2013, 17:16:32

2) With more RAM and the ability have the device mount as a storage device, Profiles & Macros will be stored on a MicroSD card that will be included as part of the base kit. The result is two fold, you'll be able to edit profiles & macros with just a text editor, and you should also be able to take the configuration software with you as well. I don't know if it'll be fast enough to make it worth taking other files, but thats also a possibility.


I really like this idea, but have a few quick questions/comments/concerns about this combo-ing.

1. Concern: How will this look to the system? Will it still look like a HID (Keyboard) or will it look like an USB hybrid storage device? I know the military and some corporations do not allow ppl to plug in usb thumb drives for security reasons. Will this combo lock these users out? I personally don't care because I'm no longer in the military and hook up whatever I want to whatever I want. I'm just pointing it out for consideration for those who may be restricted.

1b. Comment: Hak5 has the USB Rubber ducky; it uses micro SD but it still looks like a standard Keyboard to the system. Maybe the your keyboard can use some of the same technology to get around restrictions?

1c. Comment: What about installing something like a keylogger on the keyboard? I'm not talking about installing anything that will affect any machine for nefarious reasons; I mean a way for the keyboard to keep track of what you (the owner) typed. I know there have been times when I've lost text before, it would be useful to have a copy right on my keyboard. Another use-case: Taking notes with no computer! Just pull out the battery powered keyboard, and start typing. Later, when at home, open up the file and tidy it up. That would really be some zen writing! No keycap legends, No screen, just brain-to-fingers distraction free writing.

2. Comment: I think it would be cool to be able to read/write files to the microSD in the keyboard, maybe even store some portable apps. Love my portable apps.

3. Question: Are you planning on having the microSD externally accessible, or will it be tucked out of the way in the case, i.e. install it when building then forget about it?

One last thing, Awesome Project!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 09 September 2013, 18:13:17

2) With more RAM and the ability have the device mount as a storage device, Profiles & Macros will be stored on a MicroSD card that will be included as part of the base kit. The result is two fold, you'll be able to edit profiles & macros with just a text editor, and you should also be able to take the configuration software with you as well. I don't know if it'll be fast enough to make it worth taking other files, but thats also a possibility.


I really like this idea, but have a few quick questions/comments/concerns about this combo-ing.

1. Concern: How will this look to the system? Will it still look like a HID (Keyboard) or will it look like an USB hybrid storage device? I know the military and some corporations do not allow ppl to plug in usb thumb drives for security reasons. Will this combo lock these users out? I personally don't care because I'm no longer in the military and hook up whatever I want to whatever I want. I'm just pointing it out for consideration for those who may be restricted.

1b. Comment: Hak5 has the USB Rubber ducky; it uses micro SD but it still looks like a standard Keyboard to the system. Maybe the your keyboard can use some of the same technology to get around restrictions?

1c. Comment: What about installing something like a keylogger on the keyboard? I'm not talking about installing anything that will affect any machine for nefarious reasons; I mean a way for the keyboard to keep track of what you (the owner) typed. I know there have been times when I've lost text before, it would be useful to have a copy right on my keyboard. Another use-case: Taking notes with no computer! Just pull out the battery powered keyboard, and start typing. Later, when at home, open up the file and tidy it up. That would really be some zen writing! No keycap legends, No screen, just brain-to-fingers distraction free writing.

2. Comment: I think it would be cool to be able to read/write files to the microSD in the keyboard, maybe even store some portable apps. Love my portable apps.

3. Question: Are you planning on having the microSD externally accessible, or will it be tucked out of the way in the case, i.e. install it when building then forget about it?

One last thing, Awesome Project!
1: As far as I understand it should show as two devices, but in all honesty I can't say entirely for sure until I've tried. I'll look at a couple of different ways to get around this issue for people, maybe even just holding down a key while plugging it in to keep it from mounting the flash portion.

1b: It looks like the ducky isn't sneaking the SD in, but rather delivering scripts based on keyboard shortcuts & scripts stored on the flash drive. This is basically the same technique as I previously mentioned, where the SD is still available to the controller, just not the PC it's plugged into.

1c: While this is entirely possible, it is not something I want to officially support for privacy & security reasons. That being said, I'm sure it's something that can be put together rather easily and would be interesting to watch someone just type to themselves without a screen.

2. I agree, and it's something I'll be investigating. I've got more than a few portable apps I use now and it would be rather useful to be able to store them onboard.

3. Currently the plan is to build it into the case, as it isn't something that should need to be changed often. That being said, it'll still be accessible, with the card facing you when you open the device.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: agodinhost on Mon, 09 September 2013, 21:14:37
Totally interested! Also super cool that you live so close to me.

If you're going to be loading profiles & macros from a file system, I think it would be a great opportunity to create a web-based layout and macro editor. Loading and exporting text files should be easy enough. I don't have a ton of spare time, but that is something I'd like to contribute.

Funny enough, I'm a web dev and this didn't even occur to me right away lol. But I've since got most of what the site's functionality should be mapped out, should be fun to put together while I'm waiting for the parts for the beta kits to come in when the time comes.

As I previously mentioned, I've been working on a new CPU board:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/arm-in-progress.png)

While the new board is longer, it's also thinner and it also integrates the MicroSD reader. It also tightens up the connector spacing, using smaller 2mm connectors and better spacing.
Don't get me wrong - I don't wanna burst your bubble ...
Why don't you use one single atmega32u4 module??? You don't need to reinvent the wheel ...
There is a lot of "arduino micro" clones out there (ebay, 9 bucks)

To make the uC to see your SD card you will need the uC code in order to be able to read fat, fat32 (dunno which one, don't remember)
But I do remember that it is HUGE! (16k for a uc with 32k is half of it's capacity - so it's huge)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: tups on Tue, 10 September 2013, 11:20:37
I read through this thread a couple of days ago. Looks awesome! AcidFire, do you still want beta testers?

1: As far as I understand it should show as two devices, but in all honesty I can't say entirely for sure until I've tried. I'll look at a couple of different ways to get around this issue for people, maybe even just holding down a key while plugging it in to keep it from mounting the flash portion.
I would suggest the opposite: only showing the flash drive when a specific key (or even any key) is held down while connecting. (This is what the Twiddler does, for what worth that comment is.)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 10 September 2013, 11:29:33
Totally interested! Also super cool that you live so close to me.

If you're going to be loading profiles & macros from a file system, I think it would be a great opportunity to create a web-based layout and macro editor. Loading and exporting text files should be easy enough. I don't have a ton of spare time, but that is something I'd like to contribute.

Funny enough, I'm a web dev and this didn't even occur to me right away lol. But I've since got most of what the site's functionality should be mapped out, should be fun to put together while I'm waiting for the parts for the beta kits to come in when the time comes.

As I previously mentioned, I've been working on a new CPU board:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/arm-in-progress.png)

While the new board is longer, it's also thinner and it also integrates the MicroSD reader. It also tightens up the connector spacing, using smaller 2mm connectors and better spacing.
Don't get me wrong - I don't wanna burst your bubble ...
Why don't you use one single atmega32u4 module??? You don't need to reinvent the wheel ...
There is a lot of "arduino micro" clones out there (ebay, 9 bucks)

To make the uC to see your SD card you will need the uC code in order to be able to read fat, fat32 (dunno which one, don't remember)
But I do remember that it is HUGE! (16k for a uc with 32k is half of it's capacity - so it's huge)
I finished the initial pricing for the new controller last night. Even with the addition of a voltage regulator & microSD slot, it still comes in cheaper than a "$9.00 arduino micro", and thats at 1 lot quantity. At higher lots it becomes even cheaper, because the ARM has lower lot quantities than the Arduino.

And your right, the file system can take up a fair amount of space, so why wouldn't I choose a cheaper microcontroller with 4 times (atmega32u4: 32kb, ARM: 128kb) the storage space, at a cheaper price no less?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kps on Tue, 10 September 2013, 12:55:28
I would suggest the opposite: only showing the flash drive when a specific key (or even any key) is held down while connecting.
That assumes there is a key attached to hold down at the time you're programming the controller.

I agree with your point though; I'd prefer not to have a keyboard present a file system by default.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 10 September 2013, 13:22:16
I would suggest the opposite: only showing the flash drive when a specific key (or even any key) is held down while connecting.
That assumes there is a key attached to hold down at the time you're programming the controller.

I agree with your point though; I'd prefer not to have a keyboard present a file system by default.

It's a fair point. What I'll test is whether a key can be used to toggle visibility of the file system, so essentially press a key and it mounts, press the key again and it dismounts.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AndyCapets on Tue, 10 September 2013, 14:41:43
The acrylic is looking so clean and well made, good job mate!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: tups on Wed, 11 September 2013, 11:22:37
Hmm, this could be of interest if you want to use a higher-level language (Mozilla's Rust) on bare-metal ARM: https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2013-July/004841.html

Still somewhat in flux though.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 11 September 2013, 12:50:59
The acrylic is looking so clean and well made, good job mate!
Thank you :) I'm currently working on a new revision of the design that should hide all the screws, it just takes a bit more work to manufacture.

Hmm, this could be of interest if you want to use a higher-level language (Mozilla's Rust) on bare-metal ARM: https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2013-July/004841.html

Still somewhat in flux though.
Thanks for the link. I've been looking at a couple different options including mbed, however from what I've seen I should have some luck porting over the existing code from the atmega to the ARM. I've found a couple of good guides for it and have started in on it while I wait for my development board to come in.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: reh on Thu, 12 September 2013, 11:26:17
Hallo, i am new here, because i want to register for the beta test, but it doesnt work :-(

Here are my thoughts i want to write you in the beta form:
Please, can you make a pdf to printout the keyboard design (maybe with a stripe in the right width between the thumb pad and the other to fold it to the correct hight difference) so one can test if its comfortable for the hands?

You mentioned a mouse stick - a must have idea (the one of my ergo-touch keyboard is useless now because the old driver not works anymore - its to insensitive without it).
You wrote, they are not to buy without entire keyboards attached. Remembering i had seen such sticks on lookin for a new driver, i done some search and found some, but no idea about the prices.
http://www.fujitsu.com/emea/services/components/input/mice/tmpl_parts_fid-828-100-20.html
http://www.hellotrade.com/parex-electronics-computer/gyro-stick.html
http://www.interlinkelectronics.com/products.php
I used wikipedia to find search words: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_stick#Naming_and_brands

I once had a maltron but i dont really liked it. I had no idea about cherry switches (black) and how to work with it, so i found the key travel too much. And I dont always type - on surfing/researching/programming i need a lot of shortcuts, which was awkward on the 3D shape. Further i use the neo layout, which puts the shortcuts in unusual places, what makes the entire thing more worse.
I hope i like the nexus better, but wouly like to have the proposed pdf.
Urgently need some one key macros for cut copy, paste, maybe things like strg+shift too. And the neo modifiers for layer 3 and 4 (5/6 are combinations).

I remember anywhere in the thread (yes, i read all pages) anything about shift/capslock - in neo pressing both shift or layer keys simultaneous acts like caps-lock. Very nice, but you need two mods for each layer (i prefer this anyway).

It not really belongs to this thread, but i mention it since i searched very long for such a program (win):
If you use more then one mouse you need different settings (one left, one right - cant understand why there is no way to have prefs for each mouse separate in Win). The logitech driver let me switch the buttons, but there was several other issues with it. Finally i found this little tool which does exactly what i want: http://www.eithermouse.com/
Not only adjusts the mouse buttons but can also adapt the cursor speed.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Nico_h on Fri, 13 September 2013, 17:30:42
This looks impressive! Congratulation on the impressive work done so far! I can't wait to join the kickstarter! (I think I would go for cherry clear switches).

As I understand it, you have an easy supply of acrylic, which is why you use this material and its constraints in your design.

I am unfamiliar with the material, but I am wondering if it would be possible to have the thumb pads inclined from the main plane, by having them rest diagonally across a layer thickness? Maybe using a larger hole in the layers above and bellow the big spacer to hold the thumb pcb in these holes?

Looking at the palm rest between the digits and thumb boards:

Is there a way to have layers not have a vertical edge during fabrication, like a knife, chamfered or rounded edge?

Otherwise, would it be possible for the end-user to file/sand away the angles without damaging / breaking the layer?

Also, if you're going to make transparent cases available, I'd be interested in getting the PCB in blue or purple.

Any chance of an update on your schedule?

Keep up the good work and best of luck!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: yakitysax on Sun, 15 September 2013, 14:40:46
AcidFire, amazing job with the keyboard.  I can't wait to get my hands on one as it looks like it improves on even the ErgoDox, which I consider the most intelligently designed keyboard for ergonomics on the planet atm, so that is no easy feat.  I am incredibly impressed with how quickly you iterate on the designs.  I am curious as to what your workflow looks like and what tools you are using go achieve such an amazingly quick turnaround time.  Can you talk about that some? Thanks, you rock!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Thimplum on Mon, 16 September 2013, 09:20:14
AcidFire, amazing job with the keyboard.  I can't wait to get my hands on one as it looks like it improves on even the ErgoDox, which I consider the most intelligently designed keyboard for ergonomics on the planet atm, so that is no easy feat.  I am incredibly impressed with how quickly you iterate on the designs.  I am curious as to what your workflow looks like and what tools you are using go achieve such an amazingly quick turnaround time.  Can you talk about that some? Thanks, you rock!

He uses Adobe Illustrator and a laser cutter. What else do you need? :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 16 September 2013, 10:19:43
Hallo, i am new here, because i want to register for the beta test, but it doesnt work :-(

Here are my thoughts i want to write you in the beta form:
Please, can you make a pdf to printout the keyboard design (maybe with a stripe in the right width between the thumb pad and the other to fold it to the correct hight difference) so one can test if its comfortable for the hands?

You mentioned a mouse stick - a must have idea (the one of my ergo-touch keyboard is useless now because the old driver not works anymore - its to insensitive without it).
You wrote, they are not to buy without entire keyboards attached. Remembering i had seen such sticks on lookin for a new driver, i done some search and found some, but no idea about the prices.
http://www.fujitsu.com/emea/services/components/input/mice/tmpl_parts_fid-828-100-20.html
http://www.hellotrade.com/parex-electronics-computer/gyro-stick.html
http://www.interlinkelectronics.com/products.php
I used wikipedia to find search words: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_stick#Naming_and_brands

I once had a maltron but i dont really liked it. I had no idea about cherry switches (black) and how to work with it, so i found the key travel too much. And I dont always type - on surfing/researching/programming i need a lot of shortcuts, which was awkward on the 3D shape. Further i use the neo layout, which puts the shortcuts in unusual places, what makes the entire thing more worse.
I hope i like the nexus better, but wouly like to have the proposed pdf.
Urgently need some one key macros for cut copy, paste, maybe things like strg+shift too. And the neo modifiers for layer 3 and 4 (5/6 are combinations).

I remember anywhere in the thread (yes, i read all pages) anything about shift/capslock - in neo pressing both shift or layer keys simultaneous acts like caps-lock. Very nice, but you need two mods for each layer (i prefer this anyway).

It not really belongs to this thread, but i mention it since i searched very long for such a program (win):
If you use more then one mouse you need different settings (one left, one right - cant understand why there is no way to have prefs for each mouse separate in Win). The logitech driver let me switch the buttons, but there was several other issues with it. Finally i found this little tool which does exactly what i want: http://www.eithermouse.com/
Not only adjusts the mouse buttons but can also adapt the cursor speed.
Thanks for the links to the pointing sticks. I've actually come accross most of those already, the problem is the price. What sources I could find for those, were either expensive, or had a high MOQ, or both. Because I'm sticking with the guideline that Open Source projects should follow a 2.6x markup, and a pointing device costing me $15.00 to ad to a project, not including supporting electronics or development cost, ends up being a $39.00 add on. That being said, I haven't given up on the idea and will keep looking for a source for the parts at a more affordable price.

Software wise, I will take a look at what you linked for the mice, it's definitely a good point about how windows allows you to set functionality. Definitely something to consider for the drivers as well.

This looks impressive! Congratulation on the impressive work done so far! I can't wait to join the kickstarter! (I think I would go for cherry clear switches).

As I understand it, you have an easy supply of acrylic, which is why you use this material and its constraints in your design.

I am unfamiliar with the material, but I am wondering if it would be possible to have the thumb pads inclined from the main plane, by having them rest diagonally across a layer thickness? Maybe using a larger hole in the layers above and bellow the big spacer to hold the thumb pcb in these holes?

Looking at the palm rest between the digits and thumb boards:

Is there a way to have layers not have a vertical edge during fabrication, like a knife, chamfered or rounded edge?

Otherwise, would it be possible for the end-user to file/sand away the angles without damaging / breaking the layer?

Also, if you're going to make transparent cases available, I'd be interested in getting the PCB in blue or purple.

Any chance of an update on your schedule?

Keep up the good work and best of luck!

I have a couple of options to explore with angling the thumb cluster. I could heat & bend the acrylic, but mass production would make this a bit of a nightmare. There's the possibility of doing the thumb as a completely separate piece that could rest on a stand designed to be angled from the main unit, but that means extra cables and I'm not sure how messy it will end up being. However, this is much easier to design for mass production, so its something I'll look at a bit more. I have a few more ideas I'm trying to find some time to explore a bit more in depth.

I've been looking at different ways to chamfer the edges, the biggest problem with working with the acrylic is finishing the edge, particularly getting the flame polished glass like finish. Easy in singles, not so much en masse, however the edge hasn't actually been as potentially uncomfortable as I was expecting. If I end up doing aluminum or injection molded parts (or both) this won't be nearly as much of an issue.

I'm not sure what color I'd get the PCBs done, but I'm leaning towards black w/ a white silkscreen. Other colors may be a possibility down the road, and of course the files will be released open source so you'd be able to have the PCBs made in the color of your choice, the only difference is that you'd have to do all the SMD assembly yourself.

AcidFire, amazing job with the keyboard.  I can't wait to get my hands on one as it looks like it improves on even the ErgoDox, which I consider the most intelligently designed keyboard for ergonomics on the planet atm, so that is no easy feat.  I am incredibly impressed with how quickly you iterate on the designs.  I am curious as to what your workflow looks like and what tools you are using go achieve such an amazingly quick turnaround time.  Can you talk about that some? Thanks, you rock!

As Thinplum mentioned, I do all my designs in Illustrator, which are then cut on a 60w Epliog Helix. I don't use anything for a 3D CAD package, I do all the solid geometry in my head, which admittedly doesn't always work quite the way I want. As for the PCBs, everything is done in Altium Designer, which has a bit of a steeper learning curve but I find far more flexible to use than Eagle. I've been testing a couple of different PCB protyping houses to figure out the best ratio between cost & quality, as well as delivery time.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: arcsign on Mon, 16 September 2013, 12:50:47
Hiya. I'm sort of new here, and found your thread recently while looking for an ergonomic keyboard; wrists have been giving me a bit of trouble and it seems like a good idea to head things off at the pass...

So, first of all, awesome work (extremely awesome). Favorites are:

- the keystation version with the extra buttons (or space for a trackball, perhaps) in the middle... but I'm constrained to finding something relatively portable
- the V-shaped 70% version... which is just gorgeous, but I think I would like to keep the split halves for tenting and adjustability reasons
- the version wrapped around the laptop, which very well could be the best thing ever.

A couple of questions/suggestions (for split versions mostly, but they sort of apply to anything):

1) If I understand correctly, you are planning on offering LEDs under each key for backlighting/etc. Will it be possible to have the keys change color so that all keys on a particular layer are lit the same color? As in: For layer 0, all keys are backlit white. For layer 1, keys that are unchanged from layer 0 (or unassigned) remain white, layer 1 mappings are changed to red. Layer 2 keys might be blue, but holdovers from layer 0 or unassigned will again remain white, etc.

Granted, the idea is not to be looking at the keyboard, but the monitor does not fill one's entire field of view, and the glow from the keyboard can serve as a cue (especially while learning) for what layer we are on and what features we have access to... this becomes more important when considering options for dynamic changes to the layout based on context information fed back from the computer... I would love to experiment with the keyboard as a sort of I/O device.


2) Is there any chance you could add a scroll wheel to each half (either near the index finger or the thumb, not sure which would be better)? I'd like to use a pair of scroll wheels (in combination with remapping scroll wheel functions based on currently selected layer, and a nearby LED for each wheel) to replace a subset of actions that are usually handled by the mouse and/or the arrow keys. These actions seem to fall into a few categories, roughly delimited as follows:

The first is area/pane selection. A lot of what the mouse ends up doing is clicking within some bound region of the screen; this can be file panes like in an ftp client, subsections of application interfaces, etc. I can see this as a type of action that could be replaced with the cursor controlled by either a scroll wheel (or two, one each for quick jogs in x, y), or a numpad-like arrangement of keys on a separate layer, with sections of the numpad corresponding to screen regions; hitting a key jumps the cursor to the desired region... faster than tab, and then minor adjustments can be made by moving the cursor with the scroll wheel.

The second is within-pane navigation. In some applications the arrows keys or pgup/pgdn/home/end are pretty good for getting around, but in others, they lack both the speed and precision of a scroll wheel. Moving the cursor around with the arrows keys is acceptable sometimes, but kind of a pain most of the time; especially if you are using the cursor or highlighted section of text as a bookmark while referencing something else. This could be set as another scroll wheel layer.

The third is text selection. Like many of you, I spend a lot of time in text editors. Some actions, like shift+home/end or shift+arrows are great for grabbing lines or blocks of text, but they leave something to be desired when navigating and selecting from single lines; too much tapping, and/or waiting for key repeats. Mapping scroll wheels to arrows, and/or shift+arrows on an alternate layer gives a much faster way of moving through text.

The fourth, and last one for the moment, is selecting fields within a document or page. Tab and shift tab are nice, but again, that ends up being a lot of tapping... bind them to scroll, and get around faster...

I think the addition of scroll wheels would eliminate some of the use cases that tend to force a switch to the mouse and break up the mostly-keyboard workflow that I (and probably others) are looking for. They are probably less expensive than trackballs, pointing sticks, or touchpads (and definitely less frustration-inducing than the third option), so they might be worth looking in to...


3) Are you planning to offer tent stands, (ideally with the degree markings that were on the single-unit adjustable angle/tent board) with the split version?

(Random suggestion, though kind of useless to me on account of "too big to travel with:" mount each half inside a partial sphere, then put that into a partial box (three faces, xy, yz, xz) with a spherical mounting, then you have a very adjustable glove thing... doesn't really have a huge advantage over more reasonable ways of adjusting the boards, but it would probably look neat...)

Anyway, keep up the amazing work and best regards!

(I've already signed up for the beta.)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Thimplum on Mon, 16 September 2013, 12:59:25
Hiya. I'm sort of new here, and found your thread recently while looking for an ergonomic keyboard; wrists have been giving me a bit of trouble and it seems like a good idea to head things off at the pass...

So, first of all, awesome work (extremely awesome). Favorites are:

- the keystation version with the extra buttons (or space for a trackball, perhaps) in the middle... but I'm constrained to finding something relatively portable
- the V-shaped 70% version... which is just gorgeous, but I think I would like to keep the split halves for tenting and adjustability reasons
- the version wrapped around the laptop, which very well could be the best thing ever.

A couple of questions/suggestions (for split versions mostly, but they sort of apply to anything):

1) If I understand correctly, you are planning on offering LEDs under each key for backlighting/etc. Will it be possible to have the keys change color so that all keys on a particular layer are lit the same color? As in: For layer 0, all keys are backlit white. For layer 1, keys that are unchanged from layer 0 (or unassigned) remain white, layer 1 mappings are changed to red. Layer 2 keys might be blue, but holdovers from layer 0 or unassigned will again remain white, etc.

Granted, the idea is not to be looking at the keyboard, but the monitor does not fill one's entire field of view, and the glow from the keyboard can serve as a cue (especially while learning) for what layer we are on and what features we have access to... this becomes more important when considering options for dynamic changes to the layout based on context information fed back from the computer... I would love to experiment with the keyboard as a sort of I/O device.


2) Is there any chance you could add a scroll wheel to each half (either near the index finger or the thumb, not sure which would be better)? I'd like to use a pair of scroll wheels (in combination with remapping scroll wheel functions based on currently selected layer, and a nearby LED for each wheel) to replace a subset of actions that are usually handled by the mouse and/or the arrow keys. These actions seem to fall into a few categories, roughly delimited as follows:

The first is area/pane selection. A lot of what the mouse ends up doing is clicking within some bound region of the screen; this can be file panes like in an ftp client, subsections of application interfaces, etc. I can see this as a type of action that could be replaced with the cursor controlled by either a scroll wheel (or two, one each for quick jogs in x, y), or a numpad-like arrangement of keys on a separate layer, with sections of the numpad corresponding to screen regions; hitting a key jumps the cursor to the desired region... faster than tab, and then minor adjustments can be made by moving the cursor with the scroll wheel.

The second is within-pane navigation. In some applications the arrows keys or pgup/pgdn/home/end are pretty good for getting around, but in others, they lack both the speed and precision of a scroll wheel. Moving the cursor around with the arrows keys is acceptable sometimes, but kind of a pain most of the time; especially if you are using the cursor or highlighted section of text as a bookmark while referencing something else. This could be set as another scroll wheel layer.

The third is text selection. Like many of you, I spend a lot of time in text editors. Some actions, like shift+home/end or shift+arrows are great for grabbing lines or blocks of text, but they leave something to be desired when navigating and selecting from single lines; too much tapping, and/or waiting for key repeats. Mapping scroll wheels to arrows, and/or shift+arrows on an alternate layer gives a much faster way of moving through text.

The fourth, and last one for the moment, is selecting fields within a document or page. Tab and shift tab are nice, but again, that ends up being a lot of tapping... bind them to scroll, and get around faster...

I think the addition of scroll wheels would eliminate some of the use cases that tend to force a switch to the mouse and break up the mostly-keyboard workflow that I (and probably others) are looking for. They are probably less expensive than trackballs, pointing sticks, or touchpads (and definitely less frustration-inducing than the third option), so they might be worth looking in to...


3) Are you planning to offer tent stands, (ideally with the degree markings that were on the single-unit adjustable angle/tent board) with the split version?

(Random suggestion, though kind of useless to me on account of "too big to travel with:" mount each half inside a partial sphere, then put that into a partial box (three faces, xy, yz, xz) with a spherical mounting, then you have a very adjustable glove thing... doesn't really have a huge advantage over more reasonable ways of adjusting the boards, but it would probably look neat...)

Anyway, keep up the amazing work and best regards!

(I've already signed up for the beta.)
1) AcidFire has hinted that he's working on an RGB LED controller to accomplish this, but for the beta units, it will probably just be one color.

2) That's a really good idea. I don't know if AcidFire is planning on doing this, though.

3) The adjustable version of the keystation had degree markings, and it's designed in such a way that It can accept the two split boards, if that's what you meant.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: arcsign on Mon, 16 September 2013, 13:42:49
1) Ah, okay. That's what I thought, but I just wanted to check.

3) The keystation had them for rotation, and maybe tent, but I meant more for adjustable tent on each half without a structure linking them.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard aka The Grand Piano
Post by: Piotr Dobrogost on Mon, 16 September 2013, 14:32:29
You probably don't want completely (or near completely transparent/clear keycaps). The LEDs will not diffuse and it looks fairly poor.

I'm not going to use any key leds and would love to have clear caps.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: xman on Mon, 16 September 2013, 21:44:10
I have a couple of options to explore with angling the thumb cluster. I could heat & bend the acrylic, but mass production would make this a bit of a nightmare. There's the possibility of doing the thumb as a completely separate piece that could rest on a stand designed to be angled from the main unit, but that means extra cables and I'm not sure how messy it will end up being. However, this is much easier to design for mass production, so its something I'll look at a bit more.

That's a really good idea!
The thumb cluster as a separate piece seems like it might allow the most user-configurability,
which would be the best option for people with hand pain.



Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: agodinhost on Tue, 17 September 2013, 02:04:09
Totally interested! Also super cool that you live so close to me.

If you're going to be loading profiles & macros from a file system, I think it would be a great opportunity to create a web-based layout and macro editor. Loading and exporting text files should be easy enough. I don't have a ton of spare time, but that is something I'd like to contribute.

Funny enough, I'm a web dev and this didn't even occur to me right away lol. But I've since got most of what the site's functionality should be mapped out, should be fun to put together while I'm waiting for the parts for the beta kits to come in when the time comes.

As I previously mentioned, I've been working on a new CPU board:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/arm-in-progress.png)

While the new board is longer, it's also thinner and it also integrates the MicroSD reader. It also tightens up the connector spacing, using smaller 2mm connectors and better spacing.
Don't get me wrong - I don't wanna burst your bubble ...
Why don't you use one single atmega32u4 module??? You don't need to reinvent the wheel ...
There is a lot of "arduino micro" clones out there (ebay, 9 bucks)

To make the uC to see your SD card you will need the uC code in order to be able to read fat, fat32 (dunno which one, don't remember)
But I do remember that it is HUGE! (16k for a uc with 32k is half of it's capacity - so it's huge)
I finished the initial pricing for the new controller last night. Even with the addition of a voltage regulator & microSD slot, it still comes in cheaper than a "$9.00 arduino micro", and thats at 1 lot quantity. At higher lots it becomes even cheaper, because the ARM has lower lot quantities than the Arduino.

And your right, the file system can take up a fair amount of space, so why wouldn't I choose a cheaper microcontroller with 4 times (atmega32u4: 32kb, ARM: 128kb) the storage space, at a cheaper price no less?
cheaper than 9 bucks? seems an awesome deal man - don't know how you did this magic but if is cheaper for 1 it will be cheaper for more boards.
Have you tried any other "development" board? Sometime ago I saw a few arduino clones using arm9 or 11. I'll try to get a look into it just to show you some alternatives (for later, whom knows?)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Piotr Dobrogost on Tue, 17 September 2013, 14:24:44
I'd like to start by saying it's a fantastic project - I'm happy AcidFire started this and puts so much effort into it. Thank you very much!!!

I'm very curious to hear what you think about idea of extra, thin keys stuck in-between normal keys which I described here - http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48615.0 Granted you like this idea, how difficult would it be to incorporate such keys in the Nexus? In one of the earlier posts you asked what we think of getting rid of side buttons; these micro keys could replace side keys increasing ergonomy of the keyboard at the same time. Also, as nice as center keys may seem to work, in practice I find them equally awkward to reach as other "normal" keys placed far from home positions. Trying different keyboards I came to the conclusion that a good key is the one which is nearby home positions and thus reducing the number of keys goes a long way towards increasing keyboard's ergonomy.

Would love to see Nexus using the idea of micro keys...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 17 September 2013, 15:35:17
I'd like to start by saying it's a fantastic project - I'm happy AcidFire started this and puts so much effort into it. Thank you very much!!!

I'm very curious to hear what you think about idea of extra, thin keys stuck in-between normal keys which I described here - http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48615.0 Granted you like this idea, how difficult would it be to incorporate such keys in the Nexus? In one of the earlier posts you asked what we think of getting rid of side buttons; these micro keys could replace side keys increasing ergonomy of the keyboard at the same time. Also, as nice as center keys may seem to work, in practice I find them equally awkward to reach as other "normal" keys placed far from home positions. Trying different keyboards I came to the conclusion that a good key is the one which is nearby home positions and thus reducing the number of keys goes a long way towards increasing keyboard's ergonomy.

Would love to see Nexus using the idea of micro keys...

honestly, I'm not a big fan of small keys like that.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Piotr Dobrogost on Tue, 17 September 2013, 16:17:55
honestly, I'm not a big fan of small keys like that.

What are your objections exactly?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 17 September 2013, 16:24:22
honestly, I'm not a big fan of small keys like that.

What are your objections exactly?

I just plain can't hit 'em. Especially the shift keys. My fingers are too fat LOL.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Piotr Dobrogost on Tue, 17 September 2013, 16:42:28
I just plain can't hit 'em. Especially the shift keys. My fingers are too fat LOL.

Do you refer to specific product using this solution? I'm asking because I'm not aware of any but would like to try it out if you know one. I think the easy of use depends on how it's done. I could image these micro keys being 1-2mm taller than normal ones; this way it wouldn't make it harder to reach for other normal keys and at the same time it should make it fairly easy to firmly actuate them.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: Piotr Dobrogost on Thu, 19 September 2013, 15:05:15
It's hard to tell, but my wrist is pretty much totally straight.

I observed interesting thing. After I've been typing for some time on angled keyboard (Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000) my hands prefer angled position (with regard to forearms) even with straight keyboard thus allowing my wrists to be straight. Maybe there's something similar going on here?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: hoggy on Thu, 19 September 2013, 15:15:37
I noticed the same thing a few years ago, it's still the case, but not quite as prounced as it was. Sadly, it cuts down the space available for all that biological stuff that makes your hands useful...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: eviltobz on Fri, 20 September 2013, 08:28:56
I just found this thread the other day, have blasted through it, and feel that I should add my voice to those expressing their admiration of how awesome it seems to be shaping up to be. I'm certainly interested in the possibility of buying in on the beta. I've done some hacking on my Ergodox firmware, so may have something to add on that front.

If we buy the beta kits, will it then be easy enough for us to get the fancy bling backlighting stuff to add when that is ready?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 20 September 2013, 08:39:49
I just plain can't hit 'em. Especially the shift keys. My fingers are too fat LOL.

Do you refer to specific product using this solution? I'm asking because I'm not aware of any but would like to try it out if you know one. I think the easy of use depends on how it's done. I could image these micro keys being 1-2mm taller than normal ones; this way it wouldn't make it harder to reach for other normal keys and at the same time it should make it fairly easy to firmly actuate them.

ooooh! I didn't mean micro keys like what you mean. I meant like some split boards that use itty-bitty shift keys.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 20 September 2013, 12:10:01
I just found this thread the other day, have blasted through it, and feel that I should add my voice to those expressing their admiration of how awesome it seems to be shaping up to be. I'm certainly interested in the possibility of buying in on the beta. I've done some hacking on my Ergodox firmware, so may have something to add on that front.

If we buy the beta kits, will it then be easy enough for us to get the fancy bling backlighting stuff to add when that is ready?

Yup, the beta kits will be basically pre production kits, meaning all the connectors for the bling backlighting stuff will be there so you can add it to the beta set just like a regular production kit.

I'd like to start by saying it's a fantastic project - I'm happy AcidFire started this and puts so much effort into it. Thank you very much!!!

I'm very curious to hear what you think about idea of extra, thin keys stuck in-between normal keys which I described here - http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48615.0 Granted you like this idea, how difficult would it be to incorporate such keys in the Nexus? In one of the earlier posts you asked what we think of getting rid of side buttons; these micro keys could replace side keys increasing ergonomy of the keyboard at the same time. Also, as nice as center keys may seem to work, in practice I find them equally awkward to reach as other "normal" keys placed far from home positions. Trying different keyboards I came to the conclusion that a good key is the one which is nearby home positions and thus reducing the number of keys goes a long way towards increasing keyboard's ergonomy.

Would love to see Nexus using the idea of micro keys...
I'd like to see a visual example as I'm having a hard time picturing it. I wasn't looking to get rid of the side buttons, but to reduce their size to the standard 1u keys.

Hiya. I'm sort of new here, and found your thread recently while looking for an ergonomic keyboard; wrists have been giving me a bit of trouble and it seems like a good idea to head things off at the pass...

So, first of all, awesome work (extremely awesome). Favorites are:

- the keystation version with the extra buttons (or space for a trackball, perhaps) in the middle... but I'm constrained to finding something relatively portable
- the V-shaped 70% version... which is just gorgeous, but I think I would like to keep the split halves for tenting and adjustability reasons
- the version wrapped around the laptop, which very well could be the best thing ever.

A couple of questions/suggestions (for split versions mostly, but they sort of apply to anything):

1) If I understand correctly, you are planning on offering LEDs under each key for backlighting/etc. Will it be possible to have the keys change color so that all keys on a particular layer are lit the same color? As in: For layer 0, all keys are backlit white. For layer 1, keys that are unchanged from layer 0 (or unassigned) remain white, layer 1 mappings are changed to red. Layer 2 keys might be blue, but holdovers from layer 0 or unassigned will again remain white, etc.

Granted, the idea is not to be looking at the keyboard, but the monitor does not fill one's entire field of view, and the glow from the keyboard can serve as a cue (especially while learning) for what layer we are on and what features we have access to... this becomes more important when considering options for dynamic changes to the layout based on context information fed back from the computer... I would love to experiment with the keyboard as a sort of I/O device.


2) Is there any chance you could add a scroll wheel to each half (either near the index finger or the thumb, not sure which would be better)? I'd like to use a pair of scroll wheels (in combination with remapping scroll wheel functions based on currently selected layer, and a nearby LED for each wheel) to replace a subset of actions that are usually handled by the mouse and/or the arrow keys. These actions seem to fall into a few categories, roughly delimited as follows:

The first is area/pane selection. A lot of what the mouse ends up doing is clicking within some bound region of the screen; this can be file panes like in an ftp client, subsections of application interfaces, etc. I can see this as a type of action that could be replaced with the cursor controlled by either a scroll wheel (or two, one each for quick jogs in x, y), or a numpad-like arrangement of keys on a separate layer, with sections of the numpad corresponding to screen regions; hitting a key jumps the cursor to the desired region... faster than tab, and then minor adjustments can be made by moving the cursor with the scroll wheel.

The second is within-pane navigation. In some applications the arrows keys or pgup/pgdn/home/end are pretty good for getting around, but in others, they lack both the speed and precision of a scroll wheel. Moving the cursor around with the arrows keys is acceptable sometimes, but kind of a pain most of the time; especially if you are using the cursor or highlighted section of text as a bookmark while referencing something else. This could be set as another scroll wheel layer.

The third is text selection. Like many of you, I spend a lot of time in text editors. Some actions, like shift+home/end or shift+arrows are great for grabbing lines or blocks of text, but they leave something to be desired when navigating and selecting from single lines; too much tapping, and/or waiting for key repeats. Mapping scroll wheels to arrows, and/or shift+arrows on an alternate layer gives a much faster way of moving through text.

The fourth, and last one for the moment, is selecting fields within a document or page. Tab and shift tab are nice, but again, that ends up being a lot of tapping... bind them to scroll, and get around faster...

I think the addition of scroll wheels would eliminate some of the use cases that tend to force a switch to the mouse and break up the mostly-keyboard workflow that I (and probably others) are looking for. They are probably less expensive than trackballs, pointing sticks, or touchpads (and definitely less frustration-inducing than the third option), so they might be worth looking in to...


3) Are you planning to offer tent stands, (ideally with the degree markings that were on the single-unit adjustable angle/tent board) with the split version?

(Random suggestion, though kind of useless to me on account of "too big to travel with:" mount each half inside a partial sphere, then put that into a partial box (three faces, xy, yz, xz) with a spherical mounting, then you have a very adjustable glove thing... doesn't really have a huge advantage over more reasonable ways of adjusting the boards, but it would probably look neat...)

Anyway, keep up the amazing work and best regards!

(I've already signed up for the beta.)

1) This will be one of the standard LED modes, where the only ones that light up are the active on the layer. As for the multi color issue, the current boards only have the ability to display one color, however there may be a way to get two colors into each key, which I will be investigating before I do the next spin of the boards. Full RGB control will be available through a somewhat expensive add on (RGB LED's ain't cheap!) that will allow you to set a huge variety of colors & effects for each layer. I'm still working on making it cheaper, but right now it isn't a priority either. Once the beta kits go out I'll be putting more time into the Bluetooth & RGB add-ons.

2) It may be possible, but I won't be investigating it at this point, simply because it's additional R&D to make it both work in software & to impliment it in hardware. A good scroll wheel is surprisingly difficult to get going functionally, but I'm not going to rule out the possibility at this point. Thats the beauty of this modular set up, it's something that be added down the road for those who want it.

3) TBH it doesn't really make sense to offer it with the split set up since they can just be turned, and don't really require the markings. Because of the way the materials need to be set up mechanically, the height of the tenting is adjusted by different sets of fins. If I get to do some injection molding, I have a few ideas for an adjustable height set up, as well as travel friendly versions of the tenting stands.

The spherical set up sounds interesting, it's something I'll have to play with when the first revision has been completed and is out in the wild.


Speaking of development, I've been relatively quiet this week with updates because I've received all my electronics including my ARM development boards and I've been deep into development mode getting it all working together. I've already been able to get it to recognize as a composite device with HID & MSD, or as a straight HID device which my bios had no issues picking up. I'm currently modifying the existing libraries for the control chips for the arduino to get them to work on the platform, hopefully before the end of the weekend I should have some demo videos done of the new controllers at work.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Demonmaker on Fri, 20 September 2013, 14:17:58
Speaking of development, I've been relatively quiet this week with updates because I've received all my electronics including my ARM development boards and I've been deep into development mode getting it all working together. I've already been able to get it to recognize as a composite device with HID & MSD, or as a straight HID device which my bios had no issues picking up. I'm currently modifying the existing libraries for the control chips for the arduino to get them to work on the platform, hopefully before the end of the weekend I should have some demo videos done of the new controllers at work.

Fantastic, cant wait.
Hows the kickstarter side coming along.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 20 September 2013, 14:47:28
The campaign is just about ready, I've outlined the first set of rewards, I'm just waiting to get the beta kits done and get input back before I put it online. Unfortunately delays for getting things like PCBs are slowly pushing back my deadlines, but I'm still pushing to try and get the kickstarter running by the end of October. It's all going to come down to how quickly I can get everything developed for it, not being able to work on it full time is definitely hurting my timetables.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: hoggy on Sat, 21 September 2013, 16:17:24
The campaign is just about ready, I've outlined the first set of rewards, I'm just waiting to get the beta kits done and get input back before I put it online. Unfortunately delays for getting things like PCBs are slowly pushing back my deadlines, but I'm still pushing to try and get the kickstarter running by the end of October. It's all going to come down to how quickly I can get everything developed for it, not being able to work on it full time is definitely hurting my timetables.

Don't worry about the timetable.  If you're waiting for stuff, that just means you've got time to iron your cape.

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 22 September 2013, 14:09:05
Agreed. real keyboarders are willing to wait years if necessary.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: insilica on Sun, 22 September 2013, 14:16:33
I hope PayPal doesn't throw a spanner in the works  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: linziyi on Sun, 22 September 2013, 14:22:42
I can't use paypal :(. It would be ideal if we are able to give the payment using credit/debit cards.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Nico_h on Sun, 22 September 2013, 15:09:06
Kickstarter (US) edition use credit cards via amazon (at least it did last year). Paypal is too painful to use for me too.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Nico_h on Sun, 22 September 2013, 15:17:01
I though real keyboarder made their own keyboards? Like AcidFire, Dox, the guy with the 3d printed keyboards(suka on deskthority) the guy with the 40% keyboard, the guy behind the key64 ;-) there are so many inspiring keyboard makers on this forum I almost want to make my own.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: spspencer on Sun, 22 September 2013, 15:30:34
What I love about my Ergodox is the ability to have so many layers. I could have all the layouts on different layers! What I hate about my Ergodox is never knowing what layer I'm on, so I end up using the default.

I noticed on your 70% you have 10 LEDs, 5 per side. Is the current plan to use those to denote which layer is active? I think having some way to see which layer you are on would be great to include at the base level. I also love backlihgting/color changing LEDs, but that is more "bling" then functional, so I would expect to pay more for that functionality.

Will you be beta testing only the split, or one of the 70% flavors?

Awesome work, Thanks!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: wesleyh on Mon, 23 September 2013, 03:18:46
An interesting tweeet by Carmack (who now works on occulus VR):

If a keyboard had a one bit touch sensor on each key, you could make an effective display and use it in VR.

https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/375328478603653121

Imagine using this keyboard in Virtual Reality.

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: bobkare on Mon, 23 September 2013, 12:51:52
I've been lurking on this thread for a while now, and have to add my voice to the mob of fans: sooo much awesomeness!

What I love about my Ergodox is the ability to have so many layers. I could have all the layouts on different layers! What I hate about my Ergodox is never knowing what layer I'm on, so I end up using the default.

I noticed on your 70% you have 10 LEDs, 5 per side. Is the current plan to use those to denote which layer is active? I think having some way to see which layer you are on would be great to include at the base level. I also love backlihgting/color changing LEDs, but that is more "bling" then functional, so I would expect to pay more for that functionality.

I've also got enough layers I sometimes forget which are active, and am trying out a possible solution: an RGB LED. Got it soldered yesterday (a bit of a pain since it's really an SMD part and I hand-soldered it to wires), but haven't got the firmware changes done yet. I'm thinking of using it in something like several axes, with base layers giving different hues while overlays control saturation or something like it. Could of course just be an unworkable idea, but at minimum I've definitely got three very different colors.

Oh, and AcidFire: I've been playing with the TMK firmware this weekend, and the debug channel it has is pretty neat, have you considered adding something like it?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 23 September 2013, 13:32:45
I hope PayPal doesn't throw a spanner in the works  :rolleyes:
It shouldn't, since I've gotten my Multiplxd paypal account approved as a business account now, and this would be straight up payment for product.

I can't use paypal :(. It would be ideal if we are able to give the payment using credit/debit cards.
Kickstarter (US) edition use credit cards via amazon (at least it did last year). Paypal is too painful to use for me too.
Unfortunately Paypal will probably be the only option to pay for the beta kits, but you should be able to use your credit/debit card for the kickstarter just like any other account. Remember as well that you can pay through paypal without needing an account, there is usually an option to pay without signing into an account, they just don't make it big & flashy.

Agreed. real keyboarders are willing to wait years if necessary.
Good to know :D I definitely want to get this right, and for a good price. That means I can't rush it, as much as I'm tempted to.

An interesting tweeet by Carmack (who now works on occulus VR):

If a keyboard had a one bit touch sensor on each key, you could make an effective display and use it in VR.

https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/375328478603653121

Imagine using this keyboard in Virtual Reality.
Technically, I could do this as an option down the road with an add-on board. I can only imagine the kind of attention I could get to something like the kickstarter or the boards in general if I were able to show Carmack a working add-on to give touch feedback from the keys.

What I love about my Ergodox is the ability to have so many layers. I could have all the layouts on different layers! What I hate about my Ergodox is never knowing what layer I'm on, so I end up using the default.

I noticed on your 70% you have 10 LEDs, 5 per side. Is the current plan to use those to denote which layer is active? I think having some way to see which layer you are on would be great to include at the base level. I also love backlihgting/color changing LEDs, but that is more "bling" then functional, so I would expect to pay more for that functionality.

Will you be beta testing only the split, or one of the 70% flavors?
Awesome work, Thanks!
I've been lurking on this thread for a while now, and have to add my voice to the mob of fans: sooo much awesomeness!

What I love about my Ergodox is the ability to have so many layers. I could have all the layouts on different layers! What I hate about my Ergodox is never knowing what layer I'm on, so I end up using the default.

I noticed on your 70% you have 10 LEDs, 5 per side. Is the current plan to use those to denote which layer is active? I think having some way to see which layer you are on would be great to include at the base level. I also love backlihgting/color changing LEDs, but that is more "bling" then functional, so I would expect to pay more for that functionality.

I've also got enough layers I sometimes forget which are active, and am trying out a possible solution: an RGB LED. Got it soldered yesterday (a bit of a pain since it's really an SMD part and I hand-soldered it to wires), but haven't got the firmware changes done yet. I'm thinking of using it in something like several axes, with base layers giving different hues while overlays control saturation or something like it. Could of course just be an unworkable idea, but at minimum I've definitely got three very different colors.

Oh, and AcidFire: I've been playing with the TMK firmware this weekend, and the debug channel it has is pretty neat, have you considered adding something like it?

Yes, that's one of the configurable options for the LEDs. I'm also looking at a small display module that would do something similar without being a stupidly expensive add-on.

As for the beta testing, I will only be building enough electronics for around 25 kits, and beta testers will be able to choose which casing they want to test. Beta testers will also be able to opt to pay (cost) for additional cases if they wish, to which they will be able to purchase & add electronics to later when the kickstarter is made available.

Unfortunately I haven't had much time to check out the TMK firmware in depth, but I do want to figure out some way of providing a debug channel for the processor. The major difference right now is still learning the ins & outs of the ARM to ensure I can get it working the way it needs to to provide this sort of functionality.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Thu, 26 September 2013, 00:21:43
Been gone for a while and just thought I would check in. Can't wait for the beta! Looks like your making great progress! Hope you get the PCBs in soon. Also can't wait to start programming the single color keyboard as I had tons of fun working with my kinesis backlit one. LEDs and hoping you continue working on the RGB add on. :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Piotr Dobrogost on Thu, 26 September 2013, 16:21:14
@AcidFire
Is beta program still open?
Can people from Europe participate?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Lumune on Thu, 26 September 2013, 17:40:15
I wish I knew about this project before I dropped my money on Ergodox round3 on MassDrop.... :(
spending too much money on keyboard already....
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: linziyi on Sat, 28 September 2013, 23:20:41
Don't know if anyone mentioned this before. Using the changeable LED to indicate different layer of the keyboard would be a great idea IMHO
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kaltar on Sun, 29 September 2013, 15:15:52
We are like kids in a road trip: "are we there yet? Are we there yet?"
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Thimplum on Mon, 30 September 2013, 08:08:15
We are like kids in a road trip: "are we there yet? Are we there yet?"

Haha! I agree.

Everyday I wait for that PM asking for the money...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 30 September 2013, 12:11:21
We are like kids in a road trip: "are we there yet? Are we there yet?"

Haha! I agree.

Everyday I wait for that PM asking for the money...
Working on it, learning the ins & outs of the ARM is taking time, but will be well worth it, especially speed wise. I know other input devices I've seen using the same processor family boast some amazingly fast response times, I want to ensure I can offer the same.

@AcidFire
Is beta program still open?
Can people from Europe participate?
Yes the beta is still open to applications, and is not region limited, as long as you understand that with being in Europe the shipping costs do end up being a bit higher.

Don't know if anyone mentioned this before. Using the changeable LED to indicate different layer of the keyboard would be a great idea IMHO
Already on the main set of features to be included by default in the first firmware.

Been gone for a while and just thought I would check in. Can't wait for the beta! Looks like your making great progress! Hope you get the PCBs in soon. Also can't wait to start programming the single color keyboard as I had tons of fun working with my kinesis backlit one. LEDs and hoping you continue working on the RGB add on. :)
I've gotten the PCBs for the breakout chips in and assembled. Right now as previously mentioned I'm working on getting the ARM firmware running solidly, while trying to spec out a simple communications protocol to allow control of the LEDs from apps running PC side.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Piotr Dobrogost on Mon, 30 September 2013, 14:22:28
@AcidFire
Is beta program still open?
Can people from Europe participate?
Yes the beta is still open to applications, and is not region limited, as long as you understand that with being in Europe the shipping costs do end up being a bit higher.

Then please count me in or tell me where to sign up.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Thimplum on Mon, 30 September 2013, 15:54:45
I love how this project has inspired at least 5 people to register on GH so they can join the beta.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: spspencer on Mon, 30 September 2013, 16:55:29
I love how this project has inspired at least 5 people to register on GH so they can join the beta.

Lol, I was one of those five. Been lurking two-ish years; I love my ergodox, but I need this one.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: do_Og@n on Mon, 30 September 2013, 17:00:37
I love the look and idea of the ergodox but I don't think I could switch to one. Maybe if someone came out with a single sided one that I could use as a gaming pad...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kaltar on Tue, 01 October 2013, 00:12:48
Will it be possible to add more keys later on? I'm thinking about the palm buttons that sordna added http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=26579 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=26579) those are really usefull!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Demonmaker on Tue, 01 October 2013, 07:21:07
I love the look and idea of the ergodox but I don't think I could switch to one. Maybe if someone came out with a single sided one that I could use as a gaming pad...

This particular Ego is already like that, the two parts are completely separate, so you could in effect use just one part as a gamepad, like the razer products you see, but this being obviously better and much more customizable.  ;D
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: yakitysax on Wed, 02 October 2013, 19:29:31
Quote from: AcidFire
As Thinplum mentioned, I do all my designs in Illustrator, which are then cut on a 60w Epliog Helix. I don't use anything for a 3D CAD package, I do all the solid geometry in my head, which admittedly doesn't always work quite the way I want. As for the PCBs, everything is done in Altium Designer, which has a bit of a steeper learning curve but I find far more flexible to use than Eagle. I've been testing a couple of different PCB protyping houses to figure out the best ratio between cost & quality, as well as delivery time.
Dang, that is even more impressive. You are on a different level, up there with Andrew (bunnie) Huang even. <bow> Hopefully I am on your level some day!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: router.exe on Thu, 03 October 2013, 16:44:40
subscribed.  very interesting in this keyboard.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 03 October 2013, 16:52:13
I completely forgot to share something as well. Taking inspiration from another design on the forums (I believe it was the GHpad), I retooled the thumb board with some happy results:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/new-thumbboard.png)
The new design is on the left, the old on the right. There are a number of advantages of the new design:
- 21 Cherry MX mount points, maximum usable is 12. The midway spaced spots allow a mix of 1u & 2u keys.
- Ambidextrous, reducing the cost of board production as I only need one PCB stencil, and I would be doubling the number of PCBs to be ordered, bringing down the cost per board.
- Various combinations can be done with a single board. The layout is determined using 6 jumpers to allow the board to identify itself to the controller.
- LEDs are oriented toward the user in a split board configuration, and towards the user when used as a standalone module.

I'm considering doing the same with the main boards, allowing for a couple of different configuration options, however they will still need be two seperate designs. Also, this obviously can affect the RGB addons, but thats something I'll deal with when the time comes.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: MOZ on Thu, 03 October 2013, 18:59:31
Regarding the RGB addon and lesser room for traces, considered making more layered PCB? Not just 2, maybe 3, 4? So you actually minimse the number of PCBS actually needed. This means less sorting as well.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: FiskFisk33 on Fri, 04 October 2013, 02:04:58
I completely forgot to share something as well. Taking inspiration from another design on the forums (I believe it was the GHpad), I retooled the thumb board with some happy

are those rotated 90 degrees?
as far as I understand caps doesn't fit well on switches rotated 90 degrees. :/
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Neebio on Fri, 04 October 2013, 12:54:26
I completely forgot to share something as well. Taking inspiration from another design on the forums (I believe it was the GHpad), I retooled the thumb board with some happy

are those rotated 90 degrees?
as far as I understand caps doesn't fit well on switches rotated 90 degrees. :/

MX switch stems are symmetrical.  There should be no difference at all to the key cap if the switch is rotated.

Edit: I stand corrected, see MOZ below.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: MOZ on Fri, 04 October 2013, 13:41:58
Actually they are not, the arms on the + are thinner on the top and bottom ones as  compared to the ones on the left and right.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 04 October 2013, 14:36:40
True, but typically (at least with the keysets I have here) the + is molded symetrically, and I haven't had any problems with fitment yet, but i will definitely make a note of it.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: hoggy on Fri, 04 October 2013, 14:42:51
I've mounted caps at 90 and 180 degrees.  Certainly feels a bit different when they go on, but haven't had any problems with them not staying on or not coming off, they feel stable enough.

Perhaps I've been lucky.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Loligagger on Fri, 04 October 2013, 18:13:11
Could probably just slap DSA caps on there so rotating it would be no problem.

Are steel/aluminum plate mounts still a possibility? Not sure how layering for the case would work if you had the plates the right thickness so switches could 'snap in'.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 07 October 2013, 14:03:50
Could probably just slap DSA caps on there so rotating it would be no problem.

Are steel/aluminum plate mounts still a possibility? Not sure how layering for the case would work if you had the plates the right thickness so switches could 'snap in'.

what I would most likely do with an aluminum or steel plate is go with 3mm, just like the acrylic, and mill the portion around the keys down to 1.5mm. The acrylic case may end up a bit obsolete as the new tech who just started at work has experience designing injection molded cases and is interested in helping me with it, but it's a bit of wait and see as IM is still more expensive to get spun up than laser cut acrylic.

On the development front, I spent the weekend with my new dev boards, and I have a few answers for some of the things we've been discussing.

- Yes, I can have the microSD connect & disconnect with a keypress/macro/command
- The current libraries available for the chip don't seem to support SDXC cards (yet.) I'm sure something could be ported, but it's not currently a priority.
- From what I can tell, theres nothing stopping proper NKRO over USB -but- this still needs to be explored.
- Because of the way the clock works on the chip, I keep catching myself making little errors with timing. In the next revision or two I'll be putting together a small library to make this easier on myself and those of you wishing to hack/modify the firmware.

Progress has been steady, despite the development environment being less than intuitive. I'm currently porting & updating libraries for talking to the control chips to take advantage of the faster I2C bus on the ARM. The other good news to share is that the Bluetooth Dev kit I ordered came in today, so I'll have that on hand ready to test when the firmware is done :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Loligagger on Mon, 07 October 2013, 14:33:20
Could probably just slap DSA caps on there so rotating it would be no problem.

Are steel/aluminum plate mounts still a possibility? Not sure how layering for the case would work if you had the plates the right thickness so switches could 'snap in'.

what I would most likely do with an aluminum or steel plate is go with 3mm, just like the acrylic, and mill the portion around the keys down to 1.5mm. The acrylic case may end up a bit obsolete as the new tech who just started at work has experience designing injection molded cases and is interested in helping me with it, but it's a bit of wait and see as IM is still more expensive to get spun up than laser cut acrylic.

Sounds like a good plan, 3mm thick aluminum plates would be lovely. May as well go all the way and get a full anodized aluminum case with matching anodized countersunk screws.  :cool:
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: elllit on Wed, 09 October 2013, 10:37:21
I am new... and count me in!

I was looking for a new keyboard and came across the ergodox... and a couple of days later I found this thread.
I really like what you did. :thumb:

Separating the thumb cluster from the other part of the keyboard is a good idea and will facilitate further modding, imho. For instance changing distance and angle between the boards to adopt for different hand sizes - I for, one, don't have very long fingers ;)

What's the progress on the project?

-- elllit
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: insilica on Wed, 09 October 2013, 10:42:02
Could probably just slap DSA caps on there so rotating it would be no problem.

Are steel/aluminum plate mounts still a possibility? Not sure how layering for the case would work if you had the plates the right thickness so switches could 'snap in'.

what I would most likely do with an aluminum or steel plate is go with 3mm, just like the acrylic, and mill the portion around the keys down to 1.5mm. The acrylic case may end up a bit obsolete as the new tech who just started at work has experience designing injection molded cases and is interested in helping me with it, but it's a bit of wait and see as IM is still more expensive to get spun up than laser cut acrylic.

Sounds like a good plan, 3mm thick aluminum plates would be lovely. May as well go all the way and get a full anodized aluminum case with matching anodized countersunk screws.  :cool:

Sounds like an expensive addon  :'(
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 11 October 2013, 13:08:57
I am new... and count me in!

I was looking for a new keyboard and came across the ergodox... and a couple of days later I found this thread.
I really like what you did. :thumb:

Separating the thumb cluster from the other part of the keyboard is a good idea and will facilitate further modding, imho. For instance changing distance and angle between the boards to adopt for different hand sizes - I for, one, don't have very long fingers ;)

What's the progress on the project?

-- elllit
Glad to have you aboard. Right now, the prototype cases are designed, the board designs have been updated, and I'm currently working to finish the first edition of the firmware. I may or may not be typing this post on the latest version of the firmware  :rolleyes:. Once the firmware is done, I'll be ordering the next spin of the boards, and once I get the first set of the new boards assembled and tested, I'll be emailing those people I've selected for the first round of beta.

Could probably just slap DSA caps on there so rotating it would be no problem.

Are steel/aluminum plate mounts still a possibility? Not sure how layering for the case would work if you had the plates the right thickness so switches could 'snap in'.

what I would most likely do with an aluminum or steel plate is go with 3mm, just like the acrylic, and mill the portion around the keys down to 1.5mm. The acrylic case may end up a bit obsolete as the new tech who just started at work has experience designing injection molded cases and is interested in helping me with it, but it's a bit of wait and see as IM is still more expensive to get spun up than laser cut acrylic.

Sounds like a good plan, 3mm thick aluminum plates would be lovely. May as well go all the way and get a full anodized aluminum case with matching anodized countersunk screws.  :cool:

Sounds like an expensive addon  :'(

I'm working on making the aluminum stuff as affordable as possible. As mentioned before, it'll all come down to volume. Speaking of which, I'm not sure if I mentioned this already but I've spoken with a rep from Cherry who has given me a rough estimate of what kind of numbers I would need to order from them to deal with them on an ongoing basis, but still haven't received a price. I was told I'd be looking at a 300K switch order if I want to deal with them right away and get better pricing, otherwise I'd have to spend 6-12months establishing a baseline number of orders before they'd consider it.

So, in order to get you guys the lowest price possible, I'm working out a plan to be able to afford such a large order. Most of that will include making harder to find switch colors available on a regular basis, as well as value packs that I will first offer through the kickstarter campaign, and then later through the web store I'm currently developing. The plan is to price these switches lower than they typically can be obtained for, while not shooting myself in the foot either.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Loligagger on Fri, 11 October 2013, 15:28:35
Does that 300k mean of one switch type, or total with all the switch types cherry can offer? Either way that's still quite a high MOQ.

Maybe check around for how many can provide their own switches? Unless you want to offer the board in the long run and not just a single group buy or something.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: JPG on Fri, 11 October 2013, 15:40:47
Woa, 300k is a lot of switches, but that's to be expected from Cherry since they are supplying big companies. Maybe you could try to find some suppliers if you intend to go for big numbers while not going for that big a number. You would not get that good of a price, but still maybe get a decent discount. Or maybe contact 7bit, he might be able to help you (or even team up with you). Just giving ideas, but who knows, maybe one could work!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: hoggy on Fri, 11 October 2013, 15:43:35
Just be careful of over extending. I'm hoping to buy plenty of increasingly interesting  stuff from you over the next few years...
Please don't think I'm trying to put you off.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 11 October 2013, 15:52:51
Woa, 300k is a lot of switches, but that's to be expected from Cherry since they are supplying big companies. Maybe you could try to find some suppliers if you intend to go for big numbers while not going for that big a number. You would not get that good of a price, but still maybe get a decent discount. Or maybe contact 7bit, he might be able to help you (or even team up with you). Just giving ideas, but who knows, maybe one could work!
I haven't talked to 7bit, but the quotes I've gotten back from other suppliers.... Suck. they leave me no room for mark up, not even enough to make it worth my time just to count them out for kits.

Does that 300k mean of one switch type, or total with all the switch types cherry can offer? Either way that's still quite a high MOQ.

Maybe check around for how many can provide their own switches? Unless you want to offer the board in the long run and not just a single group buy or something.
I'm not sure, I believe thats just a number for total number of parts ordered from them. I've already emailed the rep I've been talking to asking for clarification. The MOQ is high, but not unattainable. The biggest thing is to have a plan on how to move them at a reasonable rate, which I think I have.

And yes, thats the other half of the equation. I'm looking to be in it for the long haul with this if it does well, so having a reasonable supply on hand is a good thing. It'll all come down to numbers and what kind of pricing i can get per switch.

Just be careful of over extending. I'm hoping to buy plenty of increasingly interesting  stuff from you over the next few years...
Please don't think I'm trying to put you off.
Not at all. The advantages of working where I do includes such advice. I believe in what I'm working on, and I've had such a solid response both here and externally that the switches are one of the few things I'm willing to take an extra risk on, in part because I know I wouldn't have trouble selling them even at a price to recoup my costs. One of the harder things I've had to deal with, and I've seen be a problem for others, is getting ahold of switches in reasonable lot sizes at what should be lot pricing. I aim to change that, to make it easier for people like myself to worry more about innovation than being able to source parts.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Loligagger on Fri, 11 October 2013, 16:19:30
Have you looked into sourcing keycaps? Black/blank PBT DSA sets from SP are probably the way to go (maybe with blue deep dishes for the home row :cool:).

Also, this really is shaping up to be a fantastic board (it can't be said enough).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 11 October 2013, 16:24:51
Have you looked into sourcing keycaps? Black/blank PBT DSA sets from SP are probably the way to go (maybe with blue deep dishes for the home row :cool:).

Also, this really is shaping up to be a fantastic board (it can't be said enough).

Oh yes, the people at SP have been amazing, I already have quotes for everything I need. I have numbers for blanks of both DSA & DCS, as well as sets that have the 1u keys labelled (double shot) and some different options for the 1.5u & 2u keys.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: linziyi on Fri, 11 October 2013, 17:27:56
Would you please include some rarer switches as well? I am particularly interested in grey (tactile) switches :|
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 11 October 2013, 17:49:40
Would you please include some rarer switches as well? I am particularly interested in grey (tactile) switches :|

Can definitely look at it, which model switch are you looking for?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: linziyi on Fri, 11 October 2013, 18:18:31
I am quite fond on heavy tactile switches, the one I mentioned is this one: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Grey.
Would be great if we can get some info about Cherry MX Super Grey from the company... But I know I am asking for too much there :|
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 11 October 2013, 18:59:10
The people at SP have been amazing

this

They're great. I once asked them for a quote on some caps. They got back to me in a matter of hours.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: sordna on Fri, 11 October 2013, 23:38:30
One of the harder things I've had to deal with, and I've seen be a problem for others, is getting ahold of switches in reasonable lot sizes at what should be lot pricing. I aim to change that, to make it easier for people like myself to worry more about innovation than being able to source parts.

Maybe you can work with WASD Keyboards, Kinesis, Mechanicalkeyboards.com, Originative, or other small companies that sell switches, and sell them portions of your 300k switch order.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Sat, 12 October 2013, 01:38:17
One of the harder things I've had to deal with, and I've seen be a problem for others, is getting ahold of switches in reasonable lot sizes at what should be lot pricing. I aim to change that, to make it easier for people like myself to worry more about innovation than being able to source parts.

Maybe you can work with WASD Keyboards, Kinesis, Mechanicalkeyboards.com, Originative, or other small companies that sell switches, and sell them portions of your 300k switch order.

Yup, thats definitely a possibility. Also, you'll be happy to know I've already intergrated & implimented your peizo, does pretty nice for clicking sounds ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: hoggy on Sat, 12 October 2013, 01:52:12
That's great.  The sound my kinesis makes when the switch activates was the only thing that got me out of the habit of bottoming out.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: elllit on Sat, 12 October 2013, 02:45:32
Glad to have you aboard. Right now, the prototype cases are designed, the board designs have been updated, and I'm currently working to finish the first edition of the firmware. I may or may not be typing this post on the latest version of the firmware  :rolleyes:. Once the firmware is done, I'll be ordering the next spin of the boards, and once I get the first set of the new boards assembled and tested, I'll be emailing those people I've selected for the first round of beta.

This sounds great. Is the beta still open for applicants?

I'm working on making the aluminum stuff as affordable as possible. As mentioned before, it'll all come down to volume. Speaking of which, I'm not sure if I mentioned this already but I've spoken with a rep from Cherry who has given me a rough estimate of what kind of numbers I would need to order from them to deal with them on an ongoing basis, but still haven't received a price. I was told I'd be looking at a 300K switch order if I want to deal with them right away and get better pricing, otherwise I'd have to spend 6-12months establishing a baseline number of orders before they'd consider it.

Phew... 300k. They certainly play with big numbers.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: sordna on Sat, 12 October 2013, 10:44:30
Also, you'll be happy to know I've already intergrated & implimented your peizo, does pretty nice for clicking sounds ;)

GASP ... I totally did not expect you would actually act upon my old post. This is AWESOME ! 

... typed on my piezo-clicky ergodox :-)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Tarzan on Sat, 12 October 2013, 13:36:52
I am quite fond on heavy tactile switches, the one I mentioned is this one: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Grey.
Would be great if we can get some info about Cherry MX Super Grey from the company... But I know I am asking for too much there :|

I'd be most interested in the MX Grey switches as well, even if you decide to carry some for add-on sales.  I'm also a tactile switch fan; any of the MX White, MX Clear or MX Green switches would be awesome.

 :thumb:

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: anotherjunkie on Mon, 14 October 2013, 16:32:13
once I get the first set of the new boards assembled and tested, I'll be emailing those people I've selected for the first round of beta.

Haha, I check for this email compulsively. Just in case I missed it somehow....

Its great to see that you're using a new version of the firmware, and with all of the different ideas you've mentioned for off-shoots I don't think that you'd have any trouble unloading the excess switches. That being said... I know you said that you'd like to, and I really think you ought to gear up to be in this for the long haul. I mentioned to you in my original email that I've been through numerous keyboards because of my hands, and I just don't believe that anything can compare to the way you've designed this. With the right exposure, these may be trying to go out the door faster than you can put them together.

And now there is the possibility of Aluminum? I think reading that for the first time actually made me start drooling a bit. That would be so damn cool!

I do have a request of you, given that possibility: will you do a good weight comparison (ideally to two decimal places, in grams) between the acrylic body and the aluminum body for us and post the photos? Neither keyboard would need to be assembled, since I'm assuming the inside pieces of each would weigh the same...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: doublethink665 on Mon, 14 October 2013, 19:16:29
I also keep checking for the email :-)
I have been too swamped at work the past month to check my email and little demons have been dancing 'round my head, chanting "you're gonna miss the beta!"
I have been following this thread since July and every time I check back in, I get more impressed with this project.
I have been on a quest for the perfect keyboard since the 90s and this is the best one I have ever seen. My biggest problem is that what is 'perfect' for me changes depending on what I am doing. I love the adjustability of the keyboard. The more I can adjust it, the better.

Right now I am typing on a laptop keyboard and it feels like typing on a trampoline. My old keyboards have all had rubber domes of varying stiffness. I like the quietness of them, but the amount of force involved in pressing them hurts my fingers over time. I often spend 10 or more hours a day at a keyboard and I don't want to have to quit because of my hands.
My current keyboard is a cheapo wireless keyboard with rubber domes, but the keys take almost no pressure to press and they are very quiet. I type at all hours of the night and I have very sensitive hearing, so being quiet is a big factor for me. From what I have seen with mechanical keyboards, making them quiet is a challenge, but there are many things to try.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 15 October 2013, 11:59:48
This sounds great. Is the beta still open for applicants?
Unfortunately not at this point, as I've already selected applicants. However since I have other designs I haven't yet shared, there is always a possibility of it opening up down the line.

GASP ... I totally did not expect you would actually act upon my old post. This is AWESOME ! 

... typed on my piezo-clicky ergodox :-)
Well it was a good suggestion and you weren't the only one to request it either. I've built it with a couple of different sounds to the clicks, and one very similar to the sample I believe you posted is set as the default.

I am quite fond on heavy tactile switches, the one I mentioned is this one: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Grey.
Would be great if we can get some info about Cherry MX Super Grey from the company... But I know I am asking for too much there :|

I'd be most interested in the MX Grey switches as well, even if you decide to carry some for add-on sales.  I'm also a tactile switch fan; any of the MX White, MX Clear or MX Green switches would be awesome.
The current line-up of switches I'm looking to carry right now:
- White
- Blue
- Green
- Red
- Black
- Dark Grey
- Brown
- Clear
- Grey

Subject to what I can actually get from Cherry, of course.

Haha, I check for this email compulsively. Just in case I missed it somehow....

Its great to see that you're using a new version of the firmware, and with all of the different ideas you've mentioned for off-shoots I don't think that you'd have any trouble unloading the excess switches. That being said... I know you said that you'd like to, and I really think you ought to gear up to be in this for the long haul. I mentioned to you in my original email that I've been through numerous keyboards because of my hands, and I just don't believe that anything can compare to the way you've designed this. With the right exposure, these may be trying to go out the door faster than you can put them together.

And now there is the possibility of Aluminum? I think reading that for the first time actually made me start drooling a bit. That would be so damn cool!

I do have a request of you, given that possibility: will you do a good weight comparison (ideally to two decimal places, in grams) between the acrylic body and the aluminum body for us and post the photos? Neither keyboard would need to be assembled, since I'm assuming the inside pieces of each would weigh the same...
I will definitely release the weights for both once I finalize the designs for each. Injection molded as a standard option is looking more and more possible as I now have access to someone who has a fair amount of experience designing cases for manufacture.

I also keep checking for the email :-)
I have been too swamped at work the past month to check my email and little demons have been dancing 'round my head, chanting "you're gonna miss the beta!"
I have been following this thread since July and every time I check back in, I get more impressed with this project.
I have been on a quest for the perfect keyboard since the 90s and this is the best one I have ever seen. My biggest problem is that what is 'perfect' for me changes depending on what I am doing. I love the adjustability of the keyboard. The more I can adjust it, the better.

Right now I am typing on a laptop keyboard and it feels like typing on a trampoline. My old keyboards have all had rubber domes of varying stiffness. I like the quietness of them, but the amount of force involved in pressing them hurts my fingers over time. I often spend 10 or more hours a day at a keyboard and I don't want to have to quit because of my hands.
My current keyboard is a cheapo wireless keyboard with rubber domes, but the keys take almost no pressure to press and they are very quiet. I type at all hours of the night and I have very sensitive hearing, so being quiet is a big factor for me. From what I have seen with mechanical keyboards, making them quiet is a challenge, but there are many things to try.
From my own experience, linear or (my preference) tactile switches make about the same amount of noise as a standard keyboard, provided you aren't bottoming out.

As for the beta, I had considered emailing those of you who had been selected ahead of time to let you know if you had been added, however the portal I've been working on that would allow you to share feedback with both me & other testers hasn't been finished yet. It's coming though :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: MOZ on Tue, 15 October 2013, 12:01:49
You need to get MXLOCK, please, please.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 15 October 2013, 12:29:23
me & other testers

"other testers and I", don't you mean?


jk

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 18 October 2013, 13:53:04
Since I've been slaving away on the firmware, I decided to take a bit of a break last night and address the issue of angle and adjustability of the thumb cluster. After a few hours of design & testing, this is where I left off:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/IMG_2074.JPG)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/IMG_2075.JPG)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/IMG_2077.JPG)
While it's far from perfect, it's definitely headed in the right direction. The most notable difference for those of you with smaller hands, is that both my girlfriend and the girls in the office have all said that the stretch they felt with the previous design is gone, which should hopefully mean I won't need multiple case sizes. There are a number of design tweaks I currently have planned for tonight that address some problems I've encountered, as well as some general improvements.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: esoomenona on Fri, 18 October 2013, 13:54:25
That's pretty sweet! Great work.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: JPG on Fri, 18 October 2013, 14:51:27
Seems super nice. Will there be some kind of "lock" to make sure then angle does not change?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Neebio on Fri, 18 October 2013, 15:04:42
Seems super nice. Will there be some kind of "lock" to make sure then angle does not change?

I imagine with that sort of hinge design, it will stay pretty firmly in place by friction alone
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Demonmaker on Fri, 18 October 2013, 16:38:13
Oooo, some sexy new pictures.  I was just thinking the other day if you would be doing a photo update, so thank you very much.

Roll on the kickstarter, looking Fab!  :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Paul on Fri, 18 October 2013, 17:18:34
Hello, Geekhack!
I think this is an excellent project and definitely interested in buying one or two units once they become available. :) Excellent work, AcidFire!  :thumb:

I read the topic and see that all the questions that interested me had already been asked. But still I would like to clarify some of them. Sorry if I missed the answer somewhere.

1. The innermost column on the main keyboard is changed from one 1x and two 1.5x keys to be a column of four 1x keys?
2. The outermost column is still using 1.5x keys?
   Is it possible to make the switch mounts of the outermost column in a way that would allow to mount the switch both closer to the pinky (and use 1x caps) and farther (for 1.5x caps). Something similar to what was recently done in the thumb board.
   This would allow to change key layout by modifying only one layer of acrylic.
3. What about adding one additional key at the very bottom of the middle-finger column? This will make layout of the last row somewhat similar to what TrulyErgonomic has for arrow keys, which is quite useful in my opinion.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 18 October 2013, 18:40:21
Seems super nice. Will there be some kind of "lock" to make sure then angle does not change?

I imagine with that sort of hinge design, it will stay pretty firmly in place by friction alone
Pretty much this, at least for now. With it tightened properly, I break the acrylic before it will actually move. I hesitate to use other mechanisms because then you get locked into things like preset points, which can be especially annoying when your ideal zone lies somewhere between two points.

Oooo, some sexy new pictures.  I was just thinking the other day if you would be doing a photo update, so thank you very much.

Roll on the kickstarter, looking Fab!  :D
Yes, I thought it was getting a bit dry & photoless around here ;)

Hello, Geekhack!
I think this is an excellent project and definitely interested in buying one or two units once they become available. :) Excellent work, AcidFire!  :thumb:

I read the topic and see that all the questions that interested me had already been asked. But still I would like to clarify some of them. Sorry if I missed the answer somewhere.

1. The innermost column on the main keyboard is changed from one 1x and two 1.5x keys to be a column of four 1x keys?
2. The outermost column is still using 1.5x keys?
   Is it possible to make the switch mounts of the outermost column in a way that would allow to mount the switch both closer to the pinky (and use 1x caps) and farther (for 1.5x caps). Something similar to what was recently done in the thumb board.
   This would allow to change key layout by modifying only one layer of acrylic.
3. What about adding one additional key at the very bottom of the middle-finger column? This will make layout of the last row somewhat similar to what TrulyErgonomic has for arrow keys, which is quite useful in my opinion.

1. Originally yes, however the size & shape of the thumb cluster has forced me to remove the new key while keeping the others at the 1x.

2. If I exclude them from the backlight, yes. The issue isn't with the switch, but rather the holes for the LEDs for the backlighting. Now, if I update the board so that the LEDs point inward (90 rotation), this is entirely possible, and especially with keys that have been etched at the edges could actually be helpful, it ends up being odd looking in the single board solutions. This all in theory, of course and still remains to be tested. Edge etching the keys can also restrict their placement unless the legend is etched into all 4 sides.

3. I can see how that would be useful, and I may explore the idea tonight. The only difference I see is that the arrow cluster on a TECK is layed out evenly, while there would be a slight stagger to one side of mine.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: elllit on Fri, 18 October 2013, 20:09:59
Nice to see how you try to tackle the one and the other problems, either software or hardware. Even more so that I know how different the two are and how much both trigger different kinds of (eventually exhausting) parts of creativity.

But you are well on track to bring out some really awesome piece of work.... so just keep going.

Cheers,

 -- elllit
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Paul on Fri, 18 October 2013, 21:34:37
1. Originally yes, however the size & shape of the thumb cluster has forced me to remove the new key while keeping the others at the 1x.
Makes sense.

2. If I exclude them from the backlight, yes. The issue isn't with the switch, but rather the holes for the LEDs for the backlighting. Now, if I update the board so that the LEDs point inward (90 rotation), this is entirely possible, and especially with keys that have been etched at the edges could actually be helpful, it ends up being odd looking in the single board solutions. This all in theory, of course and still remains to be tested. Edge etching the keys can also restrict their placement unless the legend is etched into all 4 sides.
I see, not worth the time to explore this further, in my opinion.

3. I can see how that would be useful, and I may explore the idea tonight. The only difference I see is that the arrow cluster on a TECK is layed out evenly, while there would be a slight stagger to one side of mine.
It's a little hard to tell from the pictures of the prototypes, but it appears that the stagger should be minimal and comfortable enough to use, but only testing will show.

Thanks for explaining.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: fisofo on Sat, 19 October 2013, 00:22:42
Such a sweet design, will be great to get my mitts on one someday.


Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14190.jpg)



AcidFire: A bit off-topic, but what are the little caps on the bottom of the screws in this picture protecting the desk? Can you link to where I can get them?
It's something we stock for some of our kits, but we don't normally sell them seperately. I'll talk to my boss later and see if I can get them to let me sell some.


Any luck on this? No big deal if not, I prefer you not be distracted from the main project :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Loligagger on Sat, 19 October 2013, 10:57:20
Could the new thumb board fit in the older cases while sacrificing the corner 1x key/angle adjustability? I could deal with less flexibility for a more compact board, similar to your original test case here:

Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14173.jpg)


Also, that arm for the thumb board looks like it could be used as an adjustable foot for tenting. Would probably work better than the fixed angle brackets from a while back.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Demonmaker on Sat, 19 October 2013, 11:21:28
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14190.jpg)

I must admit I'm preferring the "piano" look of the original,  than the newer version with the adjustable thumb area.

Nearer the time to release, could we get a couple of photos of the designs with a hand placed on the device for comparison of shape and look ?  That would be great, thanks.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: vatin on Sun, 20 October 2013, 01:45:36
For me I'll say which ever design that benefits ergonomic totally works for me. Looking forward to the release.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Oobly on Sun, 20 October 2013, 02:51:51
Since I've been slaving away on the firmware, I decided to take a bit of a break last night and address the issue of angle and adjustability of the thumb cluster. After a few hours of design & testing, this is where I left off:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/IMG_2074.JPG)

Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/IMG_2075.JPG)

Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/IMG_2077.JPG)

While it's far from perfect, it's definitely headed in the right direction. The most notable difference for those of you with smaller hands, is that both my girlfriend and the girls in the office have all said that the stretch they felt with the previous design is gone, which should hopefully mean I won't need multiple case sizes. There are a number of design tweaks I currently have planned for tonight that address some problems I've encountered, as well as some general improvements.

The hinged thumb cluster design is fantastic! Good work! In my testing of various thumb cluster designs and placements, an angled thumb cluster definitely feels best IMHO. Positioning is fairly important, so it's a good idea to have a broad group of beta testers with different hand sizes and shapes.

Again, very nice work. The size is okay for a "permanent" desktop setup, but too big to be really portable, IMO, but I like really minimalist designs, so there is some bias ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 21 October 2013, 13:55:50
Such a sweet design, will be great to get my mitts on one someday.

AcidFire: A bit off-topic, but what are the little caps on the bottom of the screws in this picture protecting the desk? Can you link to where I can get them?
It's something we stock for some of our kits, but we don't normally sell them seperately. I'll talk to my boss later and see if I can get them to let me sell some.


Any luck on this? No big deal if not, I prefer you not be distracted from the main project :)
TBH I completely forgot to ask, send me a PM with how many you need and where you need them sent to and I'll see what I can do.

I must admit I'm preferring the "piano" look of the original,  than the newer version with the adjustable thumb area.

Nearer the time to release, could we get a couple of photos of the designs with a hand placed on the device for comparison of shape and look ?  That would be great, thanks.
I think you'd find that the thumb cluster in the default position is almost identical in design to the original, is actually more comfortable, and is more cost effective for me to produce. The Hinges acting as a stand are actually much cheaper than using longer screws/standoffs. As for the wing on the left hand side, I plan to make some adjustments and figure out a better stand to alleviate the need for it, so it'll go back to being a bit smaller.

Could the new thumb board fit in the older cases while sacrificing the corner 1x key/angle adjustability? I could deal with less flexibility for a more compact board, similar to your original test case here:

Also, that arm for the thumb board looks like it could be used as an adjustable foot for tenting. Would probably work better than the fixed angle brackets from a while back.

Yes, and thats basically how the new layout works. Right now, the design of the adjustable case and some issues with the acrylic are pushing me to the idea of doing a non adjustable version, like the other designs ive done, with the new thumb cluster brought in close. The adjustable version would be 3D printed/IMed as ABS would be a better material choice.

For me I'll say which ever design that benefits ergonomic totally works for me. Looking forward to the release.
That's what I'm aiming for :D

The hinged thumb cluster design is fantastic! Good work! In my testing of various thumb cluster designs and placements, an angled thumb cluster definitely feels best IMHO. Positioning is fairly important, so it's a good idea to have a broad group of beta testers with different hand sizes and shapes.

Again, very nice work. The size is okay for a "permanent" desktop setup, but too big to be really portable, IMO, but I like really minimalist designs, so there is some bias ;)
Seeing your progress was what actually inspired my work! :D I'm hoping to reduce the size with further iterations as well as a design developed with proper molded cases in mind. It may not end up travel size, but I'm hoping to get it close!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: linziyi on Mon, 21 October 2013, 18:30:32
I guess an adjustable thumb-cluster distant from the main cluster would be very nice for people with smaller hands.

My suggestion is to make a slider with gear teeth on it and a lock, but this will require a new design if we are to keep the adjustable angle... Not sure if I expressed myself clear enough, I can draw if that makes it more clear.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 22 October 2013, 13:42:49
The problem with teeth is that they can wear over time, and the added issue with acrylic is that they can crack with the right amount of pressure. The other problem with teeth is when your preferred spot happens to fall half way between two. This is why you'll usually see most things that are adjustable are done with a friction mount, almost always tightened with a thumb screw. You can go to smaller teeth to get around this issue, but breakage becomes even more of an issue.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: JPG on Tue, 22 October 2013, 13:47:07
Maybe you could add some kind of silicone washers to reduce the direct pressure on acrylic? And maybe a locking mechanism to lock the screw in place so that it would keep the pressure the same and not lose it?

Just ideas  ;D
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: linziyi on Tue, 22 October 2013, 14:10:05
The problem with teeth is that they can wear over time, and the added issue with acrylic is that they can crack with the right amount of pressure. The other problem with teeth is when your preferred spot happens to fall half way between two. This is why you'll usually see most things that are adjustable are done with a friction mount, almost always tightened with a thumb screw. You can go to smaller teeth to get around this issue, but breakage becomes even more of an issue.

Yes that's what I am saying... So it is very difficult to incorporate both adjustable angle and adjustable distant.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 22 October 2013, 16:20:23
The problem with teeth is that they can wear over time, and the added issue with acrylic is that they can crack with the right amount of pressure. The other problem with teeth is when your preferred spot happens to fall half way between two. This is why you'll usually see most things that are adjustable are done with a friction mount, almost always tightened with a thumb screw. You can go to smaller teeth to get around this issue, but breakage becomes even more of an issue.

Yes that's what I am saying... So it is very difficult to incorporate both adjustable angle and adjustable distant.

Actually the arm I currently have for it supports both. If I make the move to a 3D printed/IMed case, I can reduce a number of angles further and allow for even more adjustment, however right now I'm still working around the thickness of the acrylic and the need for a reasonable border around any holes to prevent breakage.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Oobly on Wed, 23 October 2013, 03:03:46
[quoteauthor=AcidFire link=topic=44940.msg1085229#msg1085229 date=1382381750]

Seeing your progress was what actually inspired my work! :D I'm hoping to reduce the size with further iterations as well as a design developed with proper molded cases in mind. It may not end up travel size, but I'm hoping to get it close!
[/quote]

Wow, I'm flattered! Your design is coming along very nicely and it's fantastic that you're keeping production methods in mind at each step. I'm really excited to see how it progresses.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: wasabah on Thu, 24 October 2013, 04:15:57
This looks awesome.. I'll keep a close eye on this.
And will most likely end up buying.. as far as there will be international shipping?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: wasabah on Thu, 24 October 2013, 04:25:59
Oh, and since I mentioned a third design:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)


Somehow I overlooked this one before.. I saw the 70% version and was like "if it would just be angled".
Dude.. lost for words here!!
Except maybe: give it to me. NOW!!!!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 24 October 2013, 13:59:30
This looks awesome.. I'll keep a close eye on this.
And will most likely end up buying.. as far as there will be international shipping?
Yup, nothing pisses me off more than to not be able purchase something because the shipping isn't available to Canada. I would hate to do that to someone else.

Oh, and since I mentioned a third design:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)


Somehow I overlooked this one before.. I saw the 70% version and was like "if it would just be angled".
Dude.. lost for words here!!
Except maybe: give it to me. NOW!!!!

I'm glad you like it :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kittykatmax on Fri, 25 October 2013, 20:20:57
Loving the new design with the thumb cluster hinge.  Cannot WAIT for this to be available for purchase - especially now that I'm suffering from "tennis elbow" (both arms /sigh) from using a "normal" tenkeyless keyboard.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: linziyi on Sun, 27 October 2013, 04:15:54
Have you considered incorporating a IBM red dot pointing sitck kind of thing into the keyboard? It would be certainly most welcomed!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: utku on Sun, 27 October 2013, 16:40:03
Wow! Okay I've just signed up to GH to praise the 70% ergo design. Congratulations man!

As someone who followed TypeMatrix -> TrulyErgonomic -> ErgoDox path recently, 70% ergo seems like a dream.

1. It gives me back 12 sweet keys that can be mapped for F-keys. This is one thing I hate most on ErgoDox. F-keys on another layer kills the conveniency of F-keys, especially for programmers.
2. One piece design. I've found two piece design of ErgoDox to be a curse as well as a blessing. It makes me constantly tweak and reposition the thing. I'm absolutely okay with the fixed angle of TrulyErgonomic, any angle larger than 0 is okay for me. And also one piece design means LAP TIME!
3. Bluetooth. Obvious.

I'd love a thinkpad style trackpoint there in the middle but let's not get carried away :) Kudos to you.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: wasabah on Sun, 27 October 2013, 18:35:11
1. It gives me back 12 sweet keys that can be mapped for F-keys. This is one thing I hate most on ErgoDox. F-keys on another layer kills the conveniency of F-keys, especially for programmers.
2. One piece design. I've found two piece design of ErgoDox to be a curse as well as a blessing. It makes me constantly tweak and reposition the thing. I'm absolutely okay with the fixed angle of TrulyErgonomic, any angle larger than 0 is okay for me. And also one piece design means LAP TIME!
Exactly!! :)


Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 28 October 2013, 18:18:23
Loving the new design with the thumb cluster hinge.  Cannot WAIT for this to be available for purchase - especially now that I'm suffering from "tennis elbow" (both arms /sigh) from using a "normal" tenkeyless keyboard.
You were one of the people on a list in my head concerned about size & angle, and thus one of the reasons I started working on an adjustable cluster :D

Wow! Okay I've just signed up to GH to praise the 70% ergo design. Congratulations man!

As someone who followed TypeMatrix -> TrulyErgonomic -> ErgoDox path recently, 70% ergo seems like a dream.

1. It gives me back 12 sweet keys that can be mapped for F-keys. This is one thing I hate most on ErgoDox. F-keys on another layer kills the conveniency of F-keys, especially for programmers.
2. One piece design. I've found two piece design of ErgoDox to be a curse as well as a blessing. It makes me constantly tweak and reposition the thing. I'm absolutely okay with the fixed angle of TrulyErgonomic, any angle larger than 0 is okay for me. And also one piece design means LAP TIME!
3. Bluetooth. Obvious.

I'd love a thinkpad style trackpoint there in the middle but let's not get carried away :) Kudos to you.
Have you considered incorporating a IBM red dot pointing sitck kind of thing into the keyboard? It would be certainly most welcomed!

Some updated design notes which will cover some of this stuff:
*** Casing & Electronics ***
With the move to molded plastic more likely, this may actually free up more space in my cases below the key clusters. This in turn should hopefully free up enough space for a couple of things:

1) The extra space should hopefully allow me to move the control electronics for the clusters from the top/sides of the boards to separate modules underneath. This would allow me to reduce the size of the existing case designs, AND provide a possible case option that would allow the existing designs to have an additional row added to them for use as function keys. With the additional space at the edges, any unused rows on the matrix can be potentially broken out for use by you enterprising modders.

2) More space also means that the USB & 3.5mm connection jacks would no longer be required to be a part of the main cluster, allowing users to choose which USB type they want (MicroB or MiniB), and how many 3.5mm connection points are available. This reduces cost on the base model.

3) I had made a bit of a mistake earlier with the selection of the I/O expander I was planning to use for reading keypresses. Instead of using a PCA9555, I'll be using a PCA9675. The great thing is, the pins are basically identical, so there are only slight modifications required of the existing design for the new addressing. The new expanders allow for up to 64 devices on a single bus. Now, in practical use, this will be reduced to 16, as addresses need to be left available for LED control as well as the device configuration switches.

4) Tested a plate with the arrow clusters in a position similar to the TECK. I like it. There will be a version of the main cluster keys available with it if I choose not to include it as part of the base model.

Going forward, this means a huge step in flexibility/modibility. Instead of each cluster design having a dedicated section for the control electronics, they will be an add on. This adds very little to the existing cost, and reduces the cost of future changes to your boards. It also reduces the size of the cluster PCBs, and thus the size of the units themselves.

Each controller board will consist of:
 * 1x PCA9675 (8x8 Board - 64 Keys) or PCA9670(4x4 Board - 16 Keys) - This is the I/O expander that will be reading keypresses.
 * 1x PCA9670 - This additional expander will act as a set of configurable dip switches (using shunts to stay cheap), telling the main CPU unit what kind of set up it is, whether it has a backlight, etc. I'm also considering using it purely as an address system, potentially setting aside a block of addresses, with the remaining open to custom user set up. A config file on the microSD card would instruct the CPU unit on how to handle each device.
* 1x PCA9685 - LED Controller, handling control of the individual LEDs on each key. I may offer a version without this section populated for those not interested in a backlight, again reducing cost.

This also changes things like the RGB indicator lights that were added. This was an add-on that added additional cost to the base unit, but with the new design not only will you be able to decide whether you need it, but potentially where it might mount in the casing as well.

I know all of this sounds complicated, especially to those of you who just want a damn keyboard. Fear not, for all of this will come pre configured in the kits & finished boards, and exists solely for flexibility & customization for those who wish to do so. Believe it or not, this all also helps to reduce costs, and increase the number of options for key layout and the like for the initial launch.

And yes, I'm still looking into adding a nub mouse controller :P
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Loligagger on Mon, 28 October 2013, 19:25:51
F keys and a micro usb connector? Yes please.

Any estimate for how close we are to putting up the kickstarter?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kurplop on Mon, 28 October 2013, 20:05:33
Loving the new design with the thumb cluster hinge.  Cannot WAIT for this to be available for purchase - especially now that I'm suffering from "tennis elbow" (both arms /sigh) from using a "normal" tenkeyless keyboard.
You were one of the people on a list in my head concerned about size & angle, and thus one of the reasons I started working on an adjustable cluster :D

She can be quite charming, can't she?





Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Niomosy on Mon, 28 October 2013, 20:45:02
F keys?  Sweetness!  This could end up very interesting. 
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 29 October 2013, 11:49:05
F keys and a micro usb connector? Yes please.

Any estimate for how close we are to putting up the kickstarter?
Not yet, I'm still working out a number of things with the basic firmware first. I know I'm slipping past my timeline, unfortunately life, especially the freelance work I'm doing to continue funding this, keep getting in the way.

She can be quite charming, can't she?
Yes, and I feel for anyone who continually suffers at the hands of a terrible keyboard. It was feedback from her, my girlfriend and a couple of the girls in the office that prompted me to look for a better solution for the sizing.

F keys?  Sweetness!  This could end up very interesting. 
I know a number of people have asked about it, and I don't see why I can't make a version of the board available with the F keys right from the start, the new controller setup should handle it nicely.

Speaking of options, I should have mentioned that the new controller set up would actually allow for the design of Alps, Topre & buckling spring boards, as far as I can tell.

Edit: And I completely forgot to mention that moving the controls to a sub board means I can go back to a double sided design for things like the main cluster, reducing design & assembly complexity on my end, and the price of the kits as well.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kittykatmax on Wed, 30 October 2013, 12:16:35
Loving the new design with the thumb cluster hinge.  Cannot WAIT for this to be available for purchase - especially now that I'm suffering from "tennis elbow" (both arms /sigh) from using a "normal" tenkeyless keyboard.
You were one of the people on a list in my head concerned about size & angle, and thus one of the reasons I started working on an adjustable cluster :D

<3
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Wed, 30 October 2013, 18:11:50
Just checking up on the thread (I've been gone doing other things). Love the new design for the adjustable angle!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Niomosy on Wed, 30 October 2013, 19:49:42
I know a number of people have asked about it, and I don't see why I can't make a version of the board available with the F keys right from the start, the new controller setup should handle it nicely.

That alone would be quite nice for me.  I've come to accept that most any ergo keyboard is going to make me put the brackets in an odd place so I can keep the other right-hand keys in their normal QWERTY locations but having a Function row to keep Esc and ~ in their proper locations (and make it easier for to use the FX keys with various commands and in gaming) is quite pleasant.

On top of that, sounds like you've been quite busy with all the work getting put into this.  I'm sure the Alps/Topre fanbase will have some good fun with the potential for adding those switches in ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 31 October 2013, 17:35:48
I've been the Egdx exclusively for a long long while.

This is just my take.. but... I don't think the thumb cluster is needed at all..

We just really need 2 large- thumb keys that are CLOSER to the home cluster.

The Yellow gap in the picture is where the thumb would naturally fall, without extension to cross the gap into the "current" thumb key system.


I highlighted in the enclosed picture what I'm talking about..

The rest of the thumb cluster keys are rarely used, and could readily be replaced with function layers
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Oobly on Fri, 01 November 2013, 08:39:16
My take on the thumb clusters:

[attach=1]

I am still finalising the position and angle, but it's easy to use, you can press any combination of the buttons (even all 8 if it makes sense with your key mappings) and the pressing direction feels natural. I use Layer, Shift, Backspace and Tab on the left cluster, Ctrl, Alt, Space and Enter on the right.

I would like to be able to move the cluster "in" just a couple millimeters, but the key housings start to interfere with each other.

I really think this is the best layout (I tried a lot of different options) as you don't have to "move" your thumb around and everything is within reach.

ErgoDox and Nexus the thumb buttons are a bit of a stretch for me.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 01 November 2013, 12:31:26
My take on the thumb clusters:

(Attachment Link)

I am still finalising the position and angle, but it's easy to use, you can press any combination of the buttons (even all 8 if it makes sense with your key mappings) and the pressing direction feels natural. I use Layer, Shift, Backspace and Tab on the left cluster, Ctrl, Alt, Space and Enter on the right.

I would like to be able to move the cluster "in" just a couple millimeters, but the key housings start to interfere with each other.

I really think this is the best layout (I tried a lot of different options) as you don't have to "move" your thumb around and everything is within reach.

ErgoDox and Nexus the thumb buttons are a bit of a stretch for me.

I've been the Egdx exclusively for a long long while.

This is just my take.. but... I don't think the thumb cluster is needed at all..

We just really need 2 large- thumb keys that are CLOSER to the home cluster.

The Yellow gap in the picture is where the thumb would naturally fall, without extension to cross the gap into the "current" thumb key system.


I highlighted in the enclosed picture what I'm talking about..

The rest of the thumb cluster keys are rarely used, and could readily be replaced with function layers
Both of you make sense, and this is why I'm happy with my modular design. Just because I'm designing a larger cluster on the thumbs, doesn't mean it can't be switched for something smaller (and fairly easily as well.) Smaller thumb clusters will also make for a cheaper option, since the new design of the cluster controllers negates the need for one on the thumbs for smaller designs, reducing the cost. Not to mention of course, that it's cheaper with less caps & switches as well.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Oobly on Fri, 01 November 2013, 15:27:24
Modular is good! Keep going with this, it's coming along very nicely.  :thumb:
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 05 November 2013, 12:49:59
My take on the thumb clusters:

(Attachment Link)

I am still finalising the position and angle, but it's easy to use, you can press any combination of the buttons (even all 8 if it makes sense with your key mappings) and the pressing direction feels natural. I use Layer, Shift, Backspace and Tab on the left cluster, Ctrl, Alt, Space and Enter on the right.

I would like to be able to move the cluster "in" just a couple millimeters, but the key housings start to interfere with each other.

I really think this is the best layout (I tried a lot of different options) as you don't have to "move" your thumb around and everything is within reach.

ErgoDox and Nexus the thumb buttons are a bit of a stretch for me.

I think you'd find the core thumb buttons are fine, but yes, the ones surrounding them would be for sure. But as TP4 pointed out, those buttons would work fine as things like the function keys.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: conandy on Sat, 09 November 2013, 12:57:02
Wow.  Just discovered this thread (linked by an ErgoDox post) and I have to just say...wow.  Acidfire, I envy you a) your access to laser cutters and electronic parts and b) your ability to move so quickly!  You have a great project going here, and I am incredibly interested in a production unit (assembled) when you get to that point, probably both the split and the ergo 70%.  I love your commitment modularity and hackability.

I have seen others post the "I want F-keys" note, so I'll just add my 2 cents.  I am an engineer who works with AutoCAD a great deal and I am also a gamer.  Although I might be able to get used to layering the F-keys in AutoCAD, I am not sure I could learn workarounds for MMORPG stuff where there just really needs to be a lot of keys accessible to the left hand.  Granted, I could switch keyboards for gaming, but I can dream, can't I? 

I had been toying with the idea of doing my first keyboard build project ever by taking the ErgoDox project ideas and adding F keys, but after seeing all the work you have put into this project, I'd rather throw money at you than start something on my own.  I could even see adding the F-keys as an add-on module on top of the base ErgoGP case, raised and tilted at about a 60 degree angle or so (similar to the Kinesis Advantage) to keep hand movement to a minimum.

I have now subscribed to this thread, and will be anxiously awaiting the beta-testing results and looking forward, hopefully, to a production unit around Christmas! 

 

 
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: tups on Thu, 14 November 2013, 10:59:44
Any news on how the beta or kickstarter are coming together?

I would love to get my hands on one, f-keys or not!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: bearcat on Thu, 14 November 2013, 11:44:20
I've been the Egdx exclusively for a long long while.

This is just my take.. but... I don't think the thumb cluster is needed at all..

We just really need 2 large- thumb keys that are CLOSER to the home cluster.
[snip]
The rest of the thumb cluster keys are rarely used, and could readily be replaced with function layers

I agree.  I found I couldn't naturally hit more than 3 thumb keys.  One directly under the thumb, one outside, and one inside.  My design was here: the ctrl/alt keys are actually mapped to spacebar etc., heck, you know, it's programmable ;)  I'm making PCBs for the next version now and am looking for feedback.

(http://i.imgur.com/W7BS21T.jpg)

Thanks!

Really looking forward to seeing how the kickstarter/groupbuy for this turns out!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Oobly on Fri, 15 November 2013, 03:04:51
I've been playing SWtOR with my ergo board and am using all the keys of the left hand except the Layer and Shift buttons so far (and Esc). I'll start to map the function layer buttons next for targeting, but all my important abilities are keymapped and very quick (including heals, playing a Consular Sage with Kinetics build) :)

I have 6 keys instantly accessible (left, right, forward, quick heal, jump and select next target) and 11 more just one key away from the home positions (the other abilities I need to be fast). Using the function layer I gain access to another 15 bindable keys which are good for anything that doesn't have to be lightning-quick. The third layer which contains all the function keys on the left hand (Layer+Shift) is just as accessible (since pressing both buttons is as easy as pressing one with the thumb cluster design).

I have character screen, map, quest log and inventory mapped to the edit cluster under the alpha keys, although I'll probably change the quest log key to companion skills screen.

I never have to look at the keyboard or move my hand from the home position. FOR ME, it's way better for gaming than a "normal" board, even in MMO's with a lot of keybinds. Takes a bit of effort to learn, but becomes intuitive very quickly. Also means I don't need a crazy mouse with 100 buttons, so I can rather choose something for ergonomics and performance than number of buttons.

Three thumb buttons is probably enough for most, but I use 4 so I can get all the modifier combinations without weird contortions or using the little finger for mods.

If I got a Nexus, I'd set up the thumb clusters just like my current board with 4xsingle caps and angle the thumb cluster to suit me. The great thing is that this is completely feasible and within the design! I love it. I think this will be a VERY popular board and people will customise it to their taste :D

Good job so far, really looking forward to this getting to the Group Buy / Kickstarter / commercial product stage!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: conandy on Fri, 15 November 2013, 22:54:12
Have to say I'm with a few other posters here regarding the thumb cluster.  More that 3 keys is hard to deal with, and the current layouts of the ergodox and ergo gp have the cluster too far out. I dropped the layouts into AutoCAD and have been printing and trying them out with spare keycaps and some sticky tack.  For my little hands (with their long-ago torn thumb tendons), the thumb spread is just too far out.  I found I need to have the "space bar" equivalent thumb key located right under the B key (qwerty) on the left hand, and N on the right, with like 2mm spacing between corner of the thumb key and the B or N key.  This sort of interferes with the bottom row of the main key matrix, though.  Still playing with it.  I like some of Kurplop's experiments going on with his keyboard layouts.   I know AcidFire has indicated that the dropped thumb cluster and now the angled down thumb cluster really make it an easier reach, but I may be a statistical outlier as far as this goes.    We'll see.

Great thing about this project is that the thumb cluster is re-position-able and now... hinged! 

I also feel like I needed more column stagger, so I'm gonna try the raw Key64 layout with the increased stagger to the columns.  My fingers are very different in length and my pinky is really short, so we'll see where that goes.  I  may end up with a complete home-made version of this to suit my needs, but hey, that is what this site is all about.  Sharing ideas.

Excited to see this project come to fruition.  Keep up the great work, Acidfire.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: conandy on Fri, 15 November 2013, 23:04:28
I've been playing SWtOR with my ergo board and am using all the keys of the left hand except the Layer and Shift buttons so far (and Esc). I'll start to map the function layer buttons next for targeting, but all my important abilities are keymapped and very quick (including heals, playing a Consular Sage with Kinetics build) :)

I have 6 keys instantly accessible (left, right, forward, quick heal, jump and select next target) and 11 more just one key away from the home positions (the other abilities I need to be fast). Using the function layer I gain access to another 15 bindable keys which are good for anything that doesn't have to be lightning-quick. The third layer which contains all the function keys on the left hand (Layer+Shift) is just as accessible (since pressing both buttons is as easy as pressing one with the thumb cluster design).

I have character screen, map, quest log and inventory mapped to the edit cluster under the alpha keys, although I'll probably change the quest log key to companion skills screen.

I never have to look at the keyboard or move my hand from the home position. FOR ME, it's way better for gaming than a "normal" board, even in MMO's with a lot of keybinds. Takes a bit of effort to learn, but becomes intuitive very quickly. Also means I don't need a crazy mouse with 100 buttons, so I can rather choose something for ergonomics and performance than number of buttons.

Three thumb buttons is probably enough for most, but I use 4 so I can get all the modifier combinations without weird contortions or using the little finger for mods.

If I got a Nexus, I'd set up the thumb clusters just like my current board with 4xsingle caps and angle the thumb cluster to suit me. The great thing is that this is completely feasible and within the design! I love it. I think this will be a VERY popular board and people will customise it to their taste :D

Good job so far, really looking forward to this getting to the Group Buy / Kickstarter / commercial product stage!

Oobly, your point regarding getting used to the key layout and getting around the extra keys is well taken, regarding gaming.  I think if I take the time to train myself to truly touch type (one of the reasons I want a split ergo board is to force myself), I'll also train myself to touch-game (is that a word?  is now...).   I'm a VERY casual, and occasional gamer, wish I had time to do more, frankly. 

I have always wondered why all the modifier keys on a normal keyboard are under the pinkies, rather than the thumbs.  If Thumbkeys are modifiers, so much more is possible one-handed.  The pinky modifiers essentially force a two-handed keying.   This is probably OK for typists and programmers, but not so great for gaming or CAD work.  I see anything that makes me remove my right hand from the mouses as being un-desirable.   Have CTL and ALT under the thumb creates a lot of one handed modifier double keystroke options without twisting my hand at incredibly awkward angles.   

Pinkies are such overworked weaklings of the hands.  Here's to more thumb usage!  I may have just talked myself into trying to figure out how to use more of the plethora of thumb keys Acidfire is putting into this project (re: my other post regarding thumb keys).   
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: conandy on Fri, 15 November 2013, 23:18:17
While I am here and sharing thoughts on this project, I wanted to comment on the Keystation idea, specifically the idea of having the 10-key pad in the middle.  I have personally tried the 10-key located between the split halves of my Kinesis Freestyle, and I have to say that using a 10-key pad in this position feels very awkward.  Although access to the keypad with both hands is a great idea on paper (I like to have left hand access to the keypad when using CAD or sometimes spreadsheets), it ends up at an awkward angle to either hand when located in the middle.  If you have trained your fingers to touch-type numbers on the pad, having your hand and arm approach the keypad at a 45 degree angle across your body is murder. 

I'm still torn about what to actually DO with the 10-key pad.  I love using it for numerical input, but hate having it on my desk.  Right now I have a detached num-pad sitting right above (closer to the screen) my mouse pad so I can reach it with my right hand.  My keyboard is 10-keyless.   What I really need to do is truly train my left hand for num-pad input, but BOY is that hard.  If you think about it, even for right handers, having the num-pad on the left is the logical placement.  Keep that mouse close in, keep the right hand on the mouse, and input numbers with the left hand.  It sounds logical, at least, until you try to get work done that way. 

Now that I am thinking about it, what might make sense for me (the guy who doesn't want his right hand to move off the mouse) is to set up the 10-key layer on the LEFT hand of the split-ergo, and set up a layer-switch modifier key on the mouse!    Now I'm just talking crazy talk. 
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jeffgran on Sat, 16 November 2013, 02:25:57
While I am here and sharing thoughts on this project, I wanted to comment on the Keystation idea, specifically the idea of having the 10-key pad in the middle.  I have personally tried the 10-key located between the split halves of my Kinesis Freestyle, and I have to say that using a 10-key pad in this position feels very awkward.  Although access to the keypad with both hands is a great idea on paper (I like to have left hand access to the keypad when using CAD or sometimes spreadsheets), it ends up at an awkward angle to either hand when located in the middle.  If you have trained your fingers to touch-type numbers on the pad, having your hand and arm approach the keypad at a 45 degree angle across your body is murder. 

I'm still torn about what to actually DO with the 10-key pad.  I love using it for numerical input, but hate having it on my desk.  Right now I have a detached num-pad sitting right above (closer to the screen) my mouse pad so I can reach it with my right hand.  My keyboard is 10-keyless.   What I really need to do is truly train my left hand for num-pad input, but BOY is that hard.  If you think about it, even for right handers, having the num-pad on the left is the logical placement.  Keep that mouse close in, keep the right hand on the mouse, and input numbers with the left hand.  It sounds logical, at least, until you try to get work done that way. 

Now that I am thinking about it, what might make sense for me (the guy who doesn't want his right hand to move off the mouse) is to set up the 10-key layer on the LEFT hand of the split-ergo, and set up a layer-switch modifier key on the mouse!    Now I'm just talking crazy talk.

I agree that the 10key in the middle may SEEM like a good idea, but that it is not. I think the best option is a "layer switch" key you hold down or toggle with the left hand, that turns the home row and the three keys above and below (JKL, UIO and M,.) into the 10key. The right-hand "space bar" key in the thumb cluster is the 0. I set this up on my ergodox and have been using it for a few days, and it feels great. :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jeffgran on Sat, 16 November 2013, 02:30:42
Have to say I'm with a few other posters here regarding the thumb cluster.  More that 3 keys is hard to deal with, and the current layouts of the ergodox and ergo gp have the cluster too far out.

In response to this, I just have to say that I DISagree. I want all 6 keys, if not more, per thumb. Space bar & enter (right), backspace & tab (left), and then control, meta, alt, layer1, layer2 for EACH thumb.

But I do wholeheartedly agree that the ED thumb cluster is too far out and awkward. My take on the physical layout of the thumb keys is the first image in this thread: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46015.msg966802#msg966802
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: hoggy on Sun, 17 November 2013, 01:32:31
As a kinesis user, I'd prefer the full set of thumb keys.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: conandy on Mon, 18 November 2013, 10:57:54
Hmmm..based on some of the feedback here, maybe I need to mock up that full thumb cluster after all.  I like the taller button idea, or some sort of 3D sculpted configuration. 

Acidfire's been quiet awhile.  How's the project going, Acid?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 18 November 2013, 11:41:55
Things have been going quite well, I've made a number of revisions to the case design that while I'm not quite ready to share, address the issues with the thumb clusters quite nicely, both for spacing and the number of keys available. I've also come up with a way to for the boards to better figure out how to self configure. I'm hoping to have some new board designs ready to go out for prototyping by the end of the month, which should let me test out both the new case designs and the new electronics.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: ffira on Sat, 23 November 2013, 07:08:48
Hey all, just found this post today.

AcidFire, just send out the word for the beginning of your kickstart, and I'm sure to contribute some (even though I'm broke from buying an ergodox recently). :thumb:

Really nice designs, and really interested in your handiwork!  ;D
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: reziak on Mon, 25 November 2013, 01:48:34
This is fantastic. Sign me up for a kit!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kfmfe04 on Tue, 26 November 2013, 15:11:53
okay, I almost signed up for the ergodox massdrop - after a brief scan of this thread, I think I will have to reconsider...  ...at the very least, I need to read this entire thread first!

EDIT:  okay, I was a bit sceptical about the tiered thumb layer, but then I saw a photo of your hand on the prototype - now I'm convinced you're right!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Pacifist on Tue, 26 November 2013, 15:22:01
Screw Ergodox, Im getting this
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: w3djyt on Tue, 26 November 2013, 15:56:52
Screw Ergodox, Im getting this

Yeah, no kidding. Really looking forward to the kickstarter/initial offering/what have you!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kfmfe04 on Tue, 26 November 2013, 17:48:58
The biggest thing that kept me from pulling the trigger on the third round of massdrop/ergodox was the tenting problem (the thumb button placement was the other).

This project solves both, in a beautiful way.  Kudos on a very nice piece of design and engineering!

No more ergodox for me; I've also cancelled my orders for Honeywell/ERGO spherical keys on Deskthority.

AcidFire, for reference, if you haven't done so already, do check out the GB on Deskthority for ongoing MX cherries and please do say hi to 7bit if you haven't already, for as someone else mentioned, maybe you can join up with 7bit on future mass purchases to meet Cherries' MOQ:

http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-mx-taking-pre-orders-t2760.html (http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-mx-taking-pre-orders-t2760.html)

FWIW, when you go into production, I will likely have to order a tented board and that 70% board from you (MX Reds).  The RGB LEDs look great:  I'll wait in line for those. 

Also WAY INTO THE FUTURE (maybe version 2 or 3), if you design a module that can actually take LCD buttons (even if the switch is not mechanical), maybe in the form of a numpad-size module, I would definitely go for that.  I'm talking about something found in Razer's Deathstalker Ultimate (I like those 10 buttons - don't care much about the RGB LCD display).  To be honest, I'm not sure I even know what that hardware looks like underneath.

[attachimg=1]

I looked into buying that board just so I can have programmable key-faces (for specialized applications, I want keys that will change depending on some real-time metrics), but their SDK is closed source and requires the purchase of Visual Studio Pro for $600 - no thanks!

EDIT:  fwiw, the crazy version of that type of keyboard (and the inspiration) comes from Art Lebedev - I think this one, the Optimus Popularis, goes for USD1000+ :

[attachimg=2]

TL;DR

I will be eagerly checking this thread daily, awaiting your kickstarter announcement for version 1.0!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kzhk on Tue, 26 November 2013, 18:14:18
I'm also waiting for AcidFire's keyboard, but I'm still in for one (and maybe a second one later) Ergodox. I still use a scissor switch keyboard (typematrix) right now, and I can't wait to go mechanical ! Also Honeywell keycaps should mostly work for AcidFire's keyboard.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: w3djyt on Fri, 29 November 2013, 11:51:59
Smaller thumb clusters will also make for a cheaper option, since the new design of the cluster controllers negates the need for one on the thumbs for smaller designs, reducing the cost. Not to mention of course, that it's cheaper with less caps & switches as well.

I am so on board for smaller clusters. Also really glad to hear you're running designs past people with smaller hands. It's the one thing I've always found prohibitively difficult when it comes to more ergonomic designs on pretty much any input device. It's like the people that make them have ape-hands and it never occurs to them that there are others out there who don't?

Can't wait for this to finalize!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: doublethink665 on Fri, 29 November 2013, 12:13:25
I have ape hands, and I can assure you that ergonomic keyboards were not made with me in mind.  ;D Few things in this world were made with me in mind.
My fingertips are as big as the keys, so unless I hit the keys dead on I hit two or more at once. Flat keytops are not my friends. Neither are condensed or "mini" boards. I feel like King Kong when I use those.
My wife has tiny hands, so I can appreciate the other side of the spectrum. It's not easy being outside the norm.
I love the adjustable cluster idea.
I plan on putting backspace and escape on the cluster so my time with vi will be much easier. My pinkies have gotten pretty strong from all that flexing over the years, but they are still the first to wear out.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Oobly on Fri, 29 November 2013, 13:14:01
Smaller thumb clusters will also make for a cheaper option, since the new design of the cluster controllers negates the need for one on the thumbs for smaller designs, reducing the cost. Not to mention of course, that it's cheaper with less caps & switches as well.

I am so on board for smaller clusters. Also really glad to hear you're running designs past people with smaller hands. It's the one thing I've always found prohibitively difficult when it comes to more ergonomic designs on pretty much any input device. It's like the people that make them have ape-hands and it never occurs to them that there are others out there who don't?

Can't wait for this to finalize!

I've actually experienced this from the other direction, particularly with mice. Most are too small to be comfortable for me when held "correctly".
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kfmfe04 on Fri, 29 November 2013, 13:17:26
I've actually experienced this from the other direction, particularly with mice. Most are too small to be comfortable for me when held "correctly".

One solution is to be "allergic to the mouse" when working.

Years ago, I used to have a co-worker who did his best to avoid using the mouse whenever possible.

Now, I appreciate his aversion - the more I keep my hands on the keyboard, the faster/more productive I am.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Oobly on Fri, 29 November 2013, 14:16:31
That's pretty hard to do when gaming  ;)  But good advice when working. I've got a R.A.T. now and it fits my hand well, so no worries any more.

Back on topic, tenting and angled thumb clusters make a big difference, IMO, and really make this a lot more attractive to me than an ErgoDox. I'm very interested to see the next iteration of the design.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kfmfe04 on Fri, 29 November 2013, 15:50:13
I totally agree : the lack of tenting was the headache which made me put off joining the ergodox massbuy - turned out for the best as I discovered this thread in the meantime.

Oobly, I saw your thread on your custom build the other day - very impressive - I wish I had the skills with materials to construct something like that!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: yakitysax on Sat, 30 November 2013, 01:45:05
AcidFire, have you thought about a module that interfaces the keyboard with a small LCD display? The use case here that I have in mind is to display information relevant to the current keyboard state, such as the current layer in use, potentially enabling alias'ing the layers with more meaningful indicators such as naming a layer based on being designed for a unique context.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: spspencer on Mon, 02 December 2013, 13:50:28


Love your handle.

War is peace,
Freedom is Slavery,
Ignorance is Strength



Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 04 December 2013, 13:54:33
Have to say I'm with a few other posters here regarding the thumb cluster.  More that 3 keys is hard to deal with, and the current layouts of the ergodox and ergo gp have the cluster too far out. I dropped the layouts into AutoCAD and have been printing and trying them out with spare keycaps and some sticky tack.  For my little hands (with their long-ago torn thumb tendons), the thumb spread is just too far out.  I found I need to have the "space bar" equivalent thumb key located right under the B key (qwerty) on the left hand, and N on the right, with like 2mm spacing between corner of the thumb key and the B or N key.  This sort of interferes with the bottom row of the main key matrix, though.  Still playing with it.  I like some of Kurplop's experiments going on with his keyboard layouts.   I know AcidFire has indicated that the dropped thumb cluster and now the angled down thumb cluster really make it an easier reach, but I may be a statistical outlier as far as this goes.    We'll see.

Great thing about this project is that the thumb cluster is re-position-able and now... hinged! 

I also feel like I needed more column stagger, so I'm gonna try the raw Key64 layout with the increased stagger to the columns.  My fingers are very different in length and my pinky is really short, so we'll see where that goes.  I  may end up with a complete home-made version of this to suit my needs, but hey, that is what this site is all about.  Sharing ideas.

Excited to see this project come to fruition.  Keep up the great work, Acidfire.
The thing I'm proud of right now with the new design of the PCBs is that if the clusters don't suit your hands, you still have the ability to make custom clusters and use the control electronics, following some very simple guidelines. When all the project files are released, I'll also be posting a guide to designing your own clusters.

Have to say I'm with a few other posters here regarding the thumb cluster.  More that 3 keys is hard to deal with, and the current layouts of the ergodox and ergo gp have the cluster too far out.

In response to this, I just have to say that I DISagree. I want all 6 keys, if not more, per thumb. Space bar & enter (right), backspace & tab (left), and then control, meta, alt, layer1, layer2 for EACH thumb.

But I do wholeheartedly agree that the ED thumb cluster is too far out and awkward. My take on the physical layout of the thumb keys is the first image in this thread: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46015.msg966802#msg966802
Smaller thumb clusters will also make for a cheaper option, since the new design of the cluster controllers negates the need for one on the thumbs for smaller designs, reducing the cost. Not to mention of course, that it's cheaper with less caps & switches as well.

I am so on board for smaller clusters. Also really glad to hear you're running designs past people with smaller hands. It's the one thing I've always found prohibitively difficult when it comes to more ergonomic designs on pretty much any input device. It's like the people that make them have ape-hands and it never occurs to them that there are others out there who don't?

Can't wait for this to finalize!
Given how excited my girlfriend is about this project, if I were to release something that was too big for her I would never hear the end of it :D This is the other major factor that's slowed me down a bit, because in order to really bring the thumb clusters in close, acrylic just won't cut it and so something injection molded will give me something that'll let the thumb cluster move right in against the body. And yes, the new controller design will definitely let me reduce costs for a board with the smaller thumb clusters.

While I am here and sharing thoughts on this project, I wanted to comment on the Keystation idea, specifically the idea of having the 10-key pad in the middle.  I have personally tried the 10-key located between the split halves of my Kinesis Freestyle, and I have to say that using a 10-key pad in this position feels very awkward.  Although access to the keypad with both hands is a great idea on paper (I like to have left hand access to the keypad when using CAD or sometimes spreadsheets), it ends up at an awkward angle to either hand when located in the middle.  If you have trained your fingers to touch-type numbers on the pad, having your hand and arm approach the keypad at a 45 degree angle across your body is murder. 

I'm still torn about what to actually DO with the 10-key pad.  I love using it for numerical input, but hate having it on my desk.  Right now I have a detached num-pad sitting right above (closer to the screen) my mouse pad so I can reach it with my right hand.  My keyboard is 10-keyless.   What I really need to do is truly train my left hand for num-pad input, but BOY is that hard.  If you think about it, even for right handers, having the num-pad on the left is the logical placement.  Keep that mouse close in, keep the right hand on the mouse, and input numbers with the left hand.  It sounds logical, at least, until you try to get work done that way. 

Now that I am thinking about it, what might make sense for me (the guy who doesn't want his right hand to move off the mouse) is to set up the 10-key layer on the LEFT hand of the split-ergo, and set up a layer-switch modifier key on the mouse!    Now I'm just talking crazy talk.

I agree that the 10key in the middle may SEEM like a good idea, but that it is not. I think the best option is a "layer switch" key you hold down or toggle with the left hand, that turns the home row and the three keys above and below (JKL, UIO and M,.) into the 10key. The right-hand "space bar" key in the thumb cluster is the 0. I set this up on my ergodox and have been using it for a few days, and it feels great. :)
Unfortunately I think I should have been more clear when I had posted the keystation, while the module I was using is around the size is the same as a 10-key pad, I more envision them as macro keys/custom bindings that aren't used as much. Personally, I would love the 10-key on my left hand side, either as a layer or external module, since that is actually how I use my 10-key right now, shifting my left hand over when I have lots of numbers to enter. I think I'll include a layer with the default set that has the 10-key setup on the left hand side ;)

I have ape hands, and I can assure you that ergonomic keyboards were not made with me in mind.  ;D Few things in this world were made with me in mind.
My fingertips are as big as the keys, so unless I hit the keys dead on I hit two or more at once. Flat keytops are not my friends. Neither are condensed or "mini" boards. I feel like King Kong when I use those.
My wife has tiny hands, so I can appreciate the other side of the spectrum. It's not easy being outside the norm.
I love the adjustable cluster idea.
I plan on putting backspace and escape on the cluster so my time with vi will be much easier. My pinkies have gotten pretty strong from all that flexing over the years, but they are still the first to wear out.
I definitely feel your pain on that one, as I have largish fingers myself. So far I've been enjoying both the DCS and DSA profiles, and I'm happy that I'll be offering both options.

The biggest thing that kept me from pulling the trigger on the third round of massdrop/ergodox was the tenting problem (the thumb button placement was the other).

This project solves both, in a beautiful way.  Kudos on a very nice piece of design and engineering!

No more ergodox for me; I've also cancelled my orders for Honeywell/ERGO spherical keys on Deskthority.

AcidFire, for reference, if you haven't done so already, do check out the GB on Deskthority for ongoing MX cherries and please do say hi to 7bit if you haven't already, for as someone else mentioned, maybe you can join up with 7bit on future mass purchases to meet Cherries' MOQ:

http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-mx-taking-pre-orders-t2760.html (http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-mx-taking-pre-orders-t2760.html)

FWIW, when you go into production, I will likely have to order a tented board and that 70% board from you (MX Reds).  The RGB LEDs look great:  I'll wait in line for those. 

Also WAY INTO THE FUTURE (maybe version 2 or 3), if you design a module that can actually take LCD buttons (even if the switch is not mechanical), maybe in the form of a numpad-size module, I would definitely go for that.  I'm talking about something found in Razer's Deathstalker Ultimate (I like those 10 buttons - don't care much about the RGB LCD display).  To be honest, I'm not sure I even know what that hardware looks like underneath.

(Attachment Link)

I looked into buying that board just so I can have programmable key-faces (for specialized applications, I want keys that will change depending on some real-time metrics), but their SDK is closed source and requires the purchase of Visual Studio Pro for $600 - no thanks!

EDIT:  fwiw, the crazy version of that type of keyboard (and the inspiration) comes from Art Lebedev - I think this one, the Optimus Popularis, goes for USD1000+ :

(Attachment Link)

TL;DR

I will be eagerly checking this thread daily, awaiting your kickstarter announcement for version 1.0!
I'm currently working on lining up the financing outside of a kickstarter campaign to meet Cherry's MOQ, as I'd really like to be able to offer sets to the community at a price that is both profitable for me but much more affordable and easier to get ahold of, like reds & greens, for the community (looking to hit 0.50-0.60/switch at less than 100 switches). If that doesn't happen, I'll definitely be talking to 7bit about future orders.

I don't know how feasible an LCD key module will be, but it's definitely something I'd like to explore at some point. The great thing is that the existing system would only require a firmware upgrade to talk to such modules.

AcidFire, have you thought about a module that interfaces the keyboard with a small LCD display? The use case here that I have in mind is to display information relevant to the current keyboard state, such as the current layer in use, potentially enabling alias'ing the layers with more meaningful indicators such as naming a layer based on being designed for a unique context.
This is definitely something I'm looking into, for the exact reason you mentioned. I already know the module can be dropped into the loop without an issue, the only thing i have to look into is what type of LCD/OLED display I want to use, and how much I can get them for.

****************************************************

Development wise, there is a few things I'm excited to share with you. First, thanks to the help of the always amazing Melissa @ SP, it looks like I will be able to offer backlit keysets in both DCS & DSA at only a slight premium over blanks, since I will be able to buy the translucent keys unpainted (painted the cost doubles per set) and do the coating myself. This also means that aside from the standard set, there will also be the option to order a custom set with a font of your choice for the cost of the setup, which while it still needs to be determined, should be quite low if the design guidelines are followed.

Now the other major design improvement I've made deals with the auto configuration. Originally, the idea was to use the unused I/O on the expanders for the clusters for setting configuration options, but this limited them to being used atmost as a 5x7 cluster. I realized that this would be too limiting, and so had planned to include an 8-bit expander on each of the controllers that could be used to set the configuration. The problem with this approach is that while I could get the cost of the expanders below $1/ea., $4/kit = $10.00 added to the price of the keyboard. It also added an extra level of complexity for someone else designing a custom cluster.

Then, while discussing this with Commie, I had a bit of an epiphany. The LEDs are used in each switch, and could very easily be scanned when the board starts up, allowing it to auto discover its layouts on the fly without need of a weird addressing scheme. So now, the LEDs sit in a polar opposite direction of the diode on each switch, allowing it to be read in a different manner with the keys, without having the backlight interferred with when running normally. I know this might be hard to visualize, so I will be posting a video hopefully this weekend showing this in action.

This led to a second discovery, because of the simplified boards, I can offer the backlighting as an optional add on, which potentially can reduce the cost of a kit to $140-160. When the board comes without the LED backlighting, 1n4148 diodes can be used in place of the LEDs, which add a marginal cost compared to the LEDs. These of course can be removed later and replaced with LEDs with a backlight upgrade kit. I have a picture to upload a bit later that will show how this set up works.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Demonmaker on Wed, 04 December 2013, 17:02:10
Great update, thank you.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: sordna on Wed, 04 December 2013, 17:54:50
Then, while discussing this with Commie, I had a bit of an epiphany. The LEDs are used in each switch, and could very easily be scanned when the board starts up, allowing it to auto discover its layouts on the fly without need of a weird addressing scheme.

That's BRILLIANT!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Wed, 04 December 2013, 18:07:28
AcidFire: I know we talked about RGB option but did you see the just announced MX RGB. It looks like they have a surface mount RGB on each switch.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 04 December 2013, 18:15:51
AcidFire: I know we talked about RGB option but did you see the just announced MX RGB. It looks like they have a surface mount RGB on each switch.

MOTHER OF GOD. Looks like they're going to be hard to get ahold of if they're exclusive to Corsair boards :( The other problem would be the same as current LEDs, with the light only reaching one side. The design I have allows for complete coverage of a key, albeit at a slightly higher cost I'm sure.

It's also interesting to note that they neglect to mention the Green, White & clear switches.

Edit: Watching the video again, it may be possible that the entire body of the switch is helping to diffuse the light. Either way, the exclusivity to Corsair is going to make it a difficult option. It's definitely something I'll be keeping my eye on.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Wed, 04 December 2013, 18:20:47
AcidFire: I know we talked about RGB option but did you see the just announced MX RGB. It looks like they have a surface mount RGB on each switch.

MOTHER OF GOD. Looks like they're going to be hard to get ahold of if they're exclusive to Corsair boards :( The other problem would be the same as current LEDs, with the light only reaching one side. The design I have allows for complete coverage of a key, albeit at a slightly higher cost I'm sure.

It's also interesting to note that they neglect to mention the Green, White & clear switches.

I know I almost lost it. I'm guessing the transparency will help the color stand out better. I agree your solution look like it will be lots better but these look awesome too. I guessing the Corsair exclusive is a just to allow them to ramp up production (I'm sure money was involved too. I am so freaking excited about this though because it means more support for RGB keys
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 04 December 2013, 18:24:35
AcidFire: I know we talked about RGB option but did you see the just announced MX RGB. It looks like they have a surface mount RGB on each switch.

MOTHER OF GOD. Looks like they're going to be hard to get ahold of if they're exclusive to Corsair boards :( The other problem would be the same as current LEDs, with the light only reaching one side. The design I have allows for complete coverage of a key, albeit at a slightly higher cost I'm sure.

It's also interesting to note that they neglect to mention the Green, White & clear switches.

I know I almost lost it. I'm guessing the transparency will help the color stand out better. I agree your solution look like it will be lots better but these look awesome too. I guessing the Corsair exclusive is a just to allow them to ramp up production (I'm sure money was involved too. I am so freaking excited about this though because it means more support for RGB keys

Generally deals on exclusivity aren't in perpetuity, so hopefully down the road they might be available to order. I'm not holding my breath until I can match what I'm sure had to be a massive order for them to produce them.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kittykatmax on Wed, 04 December 2013, 18:45:10
Waiting patiently but eagerly to be able to buy one (or two!) of your amazing keyboards.  The more I read, the more I feel like a little kid at Christmas! 

:)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 04 December 2013, 22:36:58
So after looking at the Cherry MX RGB, I found myself more determined to make the RGB addon a more affordable option. So I did some digging, and I managed to find some LEDs that were the right size and a much better price. There is still some pricing I need to do, but even at the extreme, it's looking quite possible to do an RGB addon kit for roughly $65.00 :D This would be the version that has 4 LEDs per switch acting as a single light, and can be installed in a kit that's already been assembled in about 5 minutes. So while Corsair/Cherry can boast 16.7 million colors, my kit will push 68.7 billion.


Also, as promised, this is how the diodes for reading the layout are set up.
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14811.jpg)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: w3djyt on Thu, 05 December 2013, 11:08:33
There is still some pricing I need to do, but even at the extreme, it's looking quite possible to do an RGB addon kit for roughly $65.00 :D This would be the version that has 4 LEDs per switch acting as a single light, and can be installed in a kit that's already been assembled in about 5 minutes. So while Corsair/Cherry can boast 16.7 million colors, my kit will push 68.7 billion.

You are a god :O
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: daerid on Thu, 05 December 2013, 11:15:40
Quote from: AcidFire
Then, while discussing this with Commie, I had a bit of an epiphany. The LEDs are used in each switch, and could very easily be scanned when the board starts up, allowing it to auto discover its layouts on the fly without need of a weird addressing scheme.

Whoah, whoah, whoah. What? Are you talking about probing the LEDs/Diodes for row/columns on boot up? That's absolutely insane. And absolutely genius.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 05 December 2013, 12:02:18
There is still some pricing I need to do, but even at the extreme, it's looking quite possible to do an RGB addon kit for roughly $65.00 :D This would be the version that has 4 LEDs per switch acting as a single light, and can be installed in a kit that's already been assembled in about 5 minutes. So while Corsair/Cherry can boast 16.7 million colors, my kit will push 68.7 billion.

You are a god :O
Not a god, just very determined ;)

Quote from: AcidFire
Then, while discussing this with Commie, I had a bit of an epiphany. The LEDs are used in each switch, and could very easily be scanned when the board starts up, allowing it to auto discover its layouts on the fly without need of a weird addressing scheme.

Whoah, whoah, whoah. What? Are you talking about probing the LEDs/Diodes for row/columns on boot up? That's absolutely insane. And absolutely genius.

That's exactly what it does. Unfortunately it can't tell what size the key is, but I think overall it'll do the trick for discovering the layout. I seen a trick on another project about using machine pin sockets to make the LEDs swappable, I think I'd offer a $5.00 addon for the kit that would include enough pins to do the entire board.

Additional: I found a new pin/header supplier who offers a greater number of options for connector size, which will actually let me go back to 0.1" standard headers for everything. They also happen to have a smt 2 pin female header, that allows bottom entry (heh) and is only 5mm tall. This is shorter than the height of the controller board when connected, and would allow a very easy swap of diodes and LEDs without having to open up the switches. If the quote comes back low enough, I may just include them as a standard feature.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: sche on Fri, 06 December 2013, 10:45:29
Awesome project, I'm in!
 :thumb:
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kaltar on Fri, 13 December 2013, 01:16:00
I can't wait to see it done... Im drooling!!!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: simplisity on Mon, 16 December 2013, 17:44:42
Nice work.  I am definitely in for one of these.  Will it have the ability for full 90 degrees vertical?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Thu, 19 December 2013, 20:55:44
Seriously, just SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!!  :)

I was dying to get an Ergodox but this sounds awesome. I hope that you can actually implement all the customization options that you're suggesting. We can all create our own dream keyboard!!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Fri, 20 December 2013, 06:36:12
SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!! Awesome project.

The addition of assignable scroll wheels on both sides would make this project my perfect keyboard. If you don't do it, there's a good chance that I'll try to add them to mine when I buy it. I've always wanted a keyboard with a scrollwheel. When I'm surfing, the arrows are too slow, pgup/down is too jumpy, so it's back over to the mouse for the scrollwheel all the time.

Acidfire, I just hope that you're not spreading yourself too thin with all these features and options. Please don't be offended by this, I'm just very keen to see this come to fruition - KISSASS Keep it simple stupid and ship something! I totally understand that you don't want to limit yourself by underdesigning the initial offering though.

Keep up the good work! It looks awesome.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Fri, 20 December 2013, 18:17:34
I'm curious, what controllers do the rgb leds that you're using have?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kfmfe04 on Sat, 21 December 2013, 01:41:27
I try to look at the situation in a positive light.

Because this design looks so good, it has actually put a HALT to my keyboard spending: I'm reluctant to spend more money because I know something better (this project) will come to fruition, eventually!

So the situation is actually saving me money.

Of course, once released, I can't guarantee that I won't go broke spending money on all these yummy modules...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Demonmaker on Tue, 24 December 2013, 14:55:53
Merry crimbo to AcidFire and everyone else eagerly waiting on this divine piece of kit.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: fourzeropooh on Tue, 24 December 2013, 16:02:54

Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14185.jpg)

Installing diodes made it super simple to connect my columns. The best part is, it takes minimal effort to remove the hot glue & solder, so when I do finally get PCBs made it won't take me long to recover my keys for the new board.

How viable is it to make a board like this with no PCB? Seems really awesome and cheap :thumb:
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: FiskFisk33 on Wed, 25 December 2013, 22:42:43

Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14185.jpg)

Installing diodes made it super simple to connect my columns. The best part is, it takes minimal effort to remove the hot glue & solder, so when I do finally get PCBs made it won't take me long to recover my keys for the new board.

How viable is it to make a board like this with no PCB? Seems really awesome and cheap :thumb:

Well, If you're making one board for yourself it is the way to go, but if you're going to make lots, not so.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Fri, 27 December 2013, 06:04:44
Merry crimbo to AcidFire and everyone else eagerly waiting on this divine piece of kit.

Merry Christmas from Australia! There must be geeks all over the world dying waiting for this keyboard. I know I am!!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: yakitysax on Sun, 29 December 2013, 04:31:16
Merry crimbo to AcidFire and everyone else eagerly waiting on this divine piece of kit.

Merry Christmas from Australia! There must be geeks all over the world dying waiting for this keyboard. I know I am!!
I'm mainly anxious to get hacking on the software.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: tups on Mon, 30 December 2013, 04:17:34
AcidFire, will there be room in the layout for a few F-keys? I got an ErgoDox kit recently and ended up using most of the thumb-clusters for F-keys (F1 through F6), but this is less than ideal due to being split between two hands. I don't need all 12, but room for F1-F4 in one block or F1-F8 in one/two blocks would be awesome!

In any case, really looking forward to what you come up with, especially the compact (travel) variant!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: plainbriny on Mon, 30 December 2013, 05:16:05
AcidFire, will there be room in the layout for a few F-keys? I got an ErgoDox kit recently and ended up using most of the thumb-clusters for F-keys (F1 through F6), but this is less than ideal due to being split between two hands. I don't need all 12, but room for F1-F4 in one block or F1-F8 in one/two blocks would be awesome!

In any case, really looking forward to what you come up with, especially the compact (travel) variant!

The ErgoDox design allows 80 keys (extra 2 keys in the thumb clusters per hand), this should meet your needs.
However you need a 80 key plate instead of the original one.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 30 December 2013, 11:58:20
Merry crimbo to AcidFire and everyone else eagerly waiting on this divine piece of kit.

Merry Christmas from Australia! There must be geeks all over the world dying waiting for this keyboard. I know I am!!
I'm mainly anxious to get hacking on the software.

Merry Christmas to everyone! Apologies for not getting on to reply over my break, was quite busy with family this past week.

I'm still working on the software side, and I have to admit I'm struggling a bit with the ARM side of things. While I have a firm handle on the electronics, getting the firmware up and running has been a bit more troublesome. I may enlist the aid of a few of the people who applied as beta testers who have experience programming for the Cortex M0/M Family or ARM in general to get the first version out the door. If anyone is interested in helping me out with this, shoot me a PM.


Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14185.jpg)

Installing diodes made it super simple to connect my columns. The best part is, it takes minimal effort to remove the hot glue & solder, so when I do finally get PCBs made it won't take me long to recover my keys for the new board.
How viable is it to make a board like this with no PCB? Seems really awesome and cheap :thumb:
Well, If you're making one board for yourself it is the way to go, but if you're going to make lots, not so.
Pretty much this. This was a bit time intensive, but was fun to work on over an afternoon. I will say though, that unless your doing a different layout, the PCBs are still the way to go in terms of time efficiency, especially since the boards won't cost a lot and I do plan to make completely bare boards available for those who want to truely build from scratch.

I'm curious, what controllers do the rgb leds that you're using have?
I'm currently using standard LEDs that are connected to NXP PCA9685 12-bit 16 Channel i2c LED controllers. These allow the LEDs to produce 4096 color per channel, instead of 256, or 68,719,476,736 colors as opposed to 16,777,216 (8-bit.)

For the single color backlights, the LEDs are connected to NXP PCA9674 8 Channel & PCA9675 16 Channel 8-bit i2c LED controllers.

Both of these chips have a couple of distinct advantages, chief among them being an internal PWM clock, meaning they don't need to be constantly updated like the TLC5940. Basically that means they're set & forget, which is very processor friendly.


I try to look at the situation in a positive light.

Because this design looks so good, it has actually put a HALT to my keyboard spending: I'm reluctant to spend more money because I know something better (this project) will come to fruition, eventually!

So the situation is actually saving me money.

Of course, once released, I can't guarantee that I won't go broke spending money on all these yummy modules...
No pressure! I've heard this from a number of people and its very encouraging to know that there are people eagerly awaiting what I'm working on. With what I've seen so far with my numbers, I don't think it's going to break the bank either.

AcidFire, will there be room in the layout for a few F-keys? I got an ErgoDox kit recently and ended up using most of the thumb-clusters for F-keys (F1 through F6), but this is less than ideal due to being split between two hands. I don't need all 12, but room for F1-F4 in one block or F1-F8 in one/two blocks would be awesome!

In any case, really looking forward to what you come up with, especially the compact (travel) variant!
Currently, there are two different solutions to this request that are part of the current revision.

First, the thumb cluster can be set up with all single keys, giving you a ton of options at your thumbs. There will also be an optional top row of keys that can be added that by default would act as F keys. Because of the minimal number of parts required outside of the key switches, I'm hoping to keep this add on to $25 or less. As with the pricing of everything on this project, most of that is the cost of the key switches, and if I can get the pricing I want, I'm looking at a price of roughly $16-18, but that wouldn't include caps.

Depending on how the sizing works out there will most likely be space available in the cases for the desktop sizes, however the travel variants would probably need a different casing. I'll be using the kickstarter campaign to judge how popular a travel variant with F keys would be.

SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!! Awesome project.

The addition of assignable scroll wheels on both sides would make this project my perfect keyboard. If you don't do it, there's a good chance that I'll try to add them to mine when I buy it. I've always wanted a keyboard with a scrollwheel. When I'm surfing, the arrows are too slow, pgup/down is too jumpy, so it's back over to the mouse for the scrollwheel all the time.

Acidfire, I just hope that you're not spreading yourself too thin with all these features and options. Please don't be offended by this, I'm just very keen to see this come to fruition - KISSASS Keep it simple stupid and ship something! I totally understand that you don't want to limit yourself by underdesigning the initial offering though.

Keep up the good work! It looks awesome.
I'm currently looking at three accessories/addons that sit at the thumbs.

1) Scroll Wheels - The code/electronics for this are actually quite simple, mechanically however it's a bit more of a pain as the wheels need to be sourced, mounting worked out, etc which all needs to be set up within an enclosure that would allow an end user to add it to their set up.

2) Jog Wheels - A horizontal version of the scroll wheels with a high precision, the problem mostly comes with how much space a wheel needs. I do however see this + the RGB backlight being quite useful to editors.

3) Mouse/Trackball/Trackpoint - This is the most requested option that currently isn't being included in the base project, mainly due to cost & sourcing (mouse actions will be supported in software however.) I think this may also provide a viable alternative to the scroll wheel, since it should be possible to map the mouse to the scroll functions.

As for KISSASS, this is something that has been guiding the project from the start. The only major revisions/feature changes that have been made are those core to the functionality of the project. I have a long list of additions and features that can be added due to the open nature of the firmware & modularity of the hardware.

---------------------------------

Ongoing, I realize that I haven't released a video explaining how the new key scanning/auto config works. Unfortunately the green LEDs I had originally purchased for testing have a terrible viewing angle and as the previous video showed, tend to flare badly. I have some nice diffused ones included in our next parts order at which point I'll be not only posting a video of how it works, but another of what the backlight is capable of.

I've also nearly completed the new versions of the PCBs, including the seperate control PCBs for the keys & backlight. This also includes the new thumb clusters which can be customized in a number of different configurations. This does present a problem with doing RGB backlight plates unfortunately, so most likely the plates that will be released will be voted on which layouts to do first.

As I mentioned previously I've managed to reduce the cost of the RGB addon significantly, and am currently in the design stage of the PCB layout for these boards. While they most likely won't go in with the next batch of board designs, I intend to get them in within the next 30 days so that they can be made a part of the kickstarter campaign.

On the case design side, one of the guys in our office has offered to teach me the basics of both Inventor & Solidworks, which should hopefully result in a workable case design in the next couple of weeks. Once I have that done I expect to be able to get quotes done and have a final price for the kit, not to mention being able to 3D print the design for active testing.

I know a number of you are anxious to help me beta test and we're definitely close to that mark. As previously mentioned, testers will only be paying for the cost of materials for their kits. While most of what would be included should be considered production ready parts, the final case will not be, partially since the final design will be based on their feedback. Instead, 3D printed and hand finished (sanded) cases will be sent for testing, with the final case being made available when ready at cost.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: spspencer on Tue, 31 December 2013, 19:19:46
Happy New Year everyone! May the new year bring you a shiny new Nexus!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: hoggy on Wed, 01 January 2014, 02:57:58
I'll drink to that.  Actually I would, but it's not yet nine in the morning...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Wed, 01 January 2014, 22:38:04
I'm curious, what controllers do the rgb leds that you're using have?
I'm currently using standard LEDs that are connected to NXP PCA9685 12-bit 16 Channel i2c LED controllers. These allow the LEDs to produce 4096 color per channel, instead of 256, or 68,719,476,736 colors as opposed to 16,777,216 (8-bit.)

For the single color backlights, the LEDs are connected to NXP PCA9674 8 Channel & PCA9675 16 Channel 8-bit i2c LED controllers.

Both of these chips have a couple of distinct advantages, chief among them being an internal PWM clock, meaning they don't need to be constantly updated like the TLC5940. Basically that means they're set & forget, which is very processor friendly.

Nice. The reason that I asked is because I've been playing around with WS2811 leds and they use the same kind of system, and I was thinking how easy it would be to use these for keyboard backlighting, if only you could physically fit them in, that is! It's so tricky that they can do all that with only a single data line. Technology is getting so amazing these days.

Quote
I'm currently looking at three accessories/addons that sit at the thumbs.

1) Scroll Wheels - The code/electronics for this are actually quite simple, mechanically however it's a bit more of a pain as the wheels need to be sourced, mounting worked out, etc which all needs to be set up within an enclosure that would allow an end user to add it to their set up.

2) Jog Wheels - A horizontal version of the scroll wheels with a high precision, the problem mostly comes with how much space a wheel needs. I do however see this + the RGB backlight being quite useful to editors.

3) Mouse/Trackball/Trackpoint - This is the most requested option that currently isn't being included in the base project, mainly due to cost & sourcing (mouse actions will be supported in software however.) I think this may also provide a viable alternative to the scroll wheel, since it should be possible to map the mouse to the scroll functions.

As for KISSASS, this is something that has been guiding the project from the start. The only major revisions/feature changes that have been made are those core to the functionality of the project. I have a long list of additions and features that can be added due to the open nature of the firmware & modularity of the hardware.

DROOL!! I like the tactile feedback of a physical scrollwheel personally. I hate using the trackpad on a laptop, even if it has the scroll controller down the side. I would buy one if it was the only option though, of course.  :)

Quote
I've also nearly completed the new versions of the PCBs, including the seperate control PCBs for the keys & backlight. This also includes the new thumb clusters which can be customized in a number of different configurations. This does present a problem with doing RGB backlight plates unfortunately, so most likely the plates that will be released will be voted on which layouts to do first.

As I mentioned previously I've managed to reduce the cost of the RGB addon significantly, and am currently in the design stage of the PCB layout for these boards. While they most likely won't go in with the next batch of board designs, I intend to get them in within the next 30 days so that they can be made a part of the kickstarter campaign.

A cool thing would be if the backlight pattern/animation could change according to which layout is selected, but I'm sure that you've already thought of this.

Awesome! Great work. Thanks for keeping us posted. I'll need to buy a new F5 key soon, the way I've been refreshing this thread.

Excellent stuff, I hope people are helping you with the ARM programming. I would if I could but I'm pretty new to mucking around with Arduino, and my Teensy v3.1 is still in the mail!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: yakitysax on Thu, 02 January 2014, 05:15:18
Excellent stuff, I hope people are helping you with the ARM programming. I would if I could but I'm pretty new to mucking around with Arduino, and my Teensy v3.1 is still in the mail!
I have a sneaking suspicion that the prevalence of ARM in embedded projects, especially hobby projects is going to lead to more people knowing the ARM instruction set than Power or Intel in the future, plus IDA Pro works with it now, which is awesome.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: daerid on Sat, 04 January 2014, 23:20:26
I know a number of you are anxious to help me beta test and we're definitely close to that mark. As previously mentioned, testers will only be paying for the cost of materials for their kits. While most of what would be included should be considered production ready parts, the final case will not be, partially since the final design will be based on their feedback. Instead, 3D printed and hand finished (sanded) cases will be sent for testing, with the final case being made available when ready at cost.

Is the 70% still on track? Or did it get put on the back burner? (I'd go back and read, but holy hell this thread gets a lot of updates).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Sun, 05 January 2014, 08:11:01
I know a number of you are anxious to help me beta test and we're definitely close to that mark. As previously mentioned, testers will only be paying for the cost of materials for their kits. While most of what would be included should be considered production ready parts, the final case will not be, partially since the final design will be based on their feedback. Instead, 3D printed and hand finished (sanded) cases will be sent for testing, with the final case being made available when ready at cost.

Is the 70% still on track? Or did it get put on the back burner? (I'd go back and read, but holy hell this thread gets a lot of updates).

The 70% is just another configuration for the main board if I recall correctly, not much more than a different case and a couple different connectors on the inside.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 06 January 2014, 02:00:13
Is the 70% still on track? Or did it get put on the back burner? (I'd go back and read, but holy hell this thread gets a lot of updates).

The 70% is just another configuration for the main board if I recall correctly, not much more than a different case and a couple different connectors on the inside.

Exactly this. I'm currently working on the version of the main clusters that would allow them to connect to a board in the middle without needing another controller. While there is still a bit more routing that needs to be done, I thought I'd share my current progress:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/boardside05.png)

I'm sure a few of you will be excited to see that I've included (and completed) the add on that would allow for an extra row of function keys, including the LED backlight. To the left of that is the new LED Indicator module. I'm currently toying with the idea of making it reversible, hence the through hole pad for the LEDs. I'm not sure if that will pan out yet, it'll all depend on whether the components end up in the way and whether SMD RGB LEDs end up being cheap enough in both purchase and assembly to warrant having two seperate boards. Currently, the pricing is looking at around 20-30.00 for the F keys module (less without the switches) & roughly 15.00 for the indicator modules (pair.)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Mon, 06 January 2014, 05:45:26
Great work AcidFire. I am so keen for this keyboard!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: smferris on Mon, 06 January 2014, 12:56:17

I'm sure a few of you will be excited to see that I've included (and completed) the add on that would allow for an extra row of function keys, including the LED backlight. To the left of that is the new LED Indicator module. I'm currently toying with the idea of making it reversible, hence the through hole pad for the LEDs. I'm not sure if that will pan out yet, it'll all depend on whether the components end up in the way and whether SMD RGB LEDs end up being cheap enough in both purchase and assembly to warrant having two seperate boards. Currently, the pricing is looking at around 20-30.00 for the F keys module (less without the switches) & roughly 15.00 for the indicator modules (pair.)

It's great to see function keys come back.  I would have missed them.

Any chance you could add another column of keys for the index fingers?  I'd like to get as many useful keys as I can near the thumbs and index fingers, since they're the strongest.  I was sad to see the innermost column reduced to three keys in order to make more room for the thumb cluster, though having useful thumb keys is more important than index finger keys.  Still, another column of index finger keys would really help make up for the loss.  I need lots of modifier keys for emacs, preferably enough so that each hand has Shift, Control, Meta, Alt, Super, Hyper, and Command, all in reasonable locations for the thumbs or index fingers, along with all the common punctuation chars like tab, return, backspace, etc.  My thumb clusters are looking to be pretty crowded, and index finger keys are the next best choice, and where I'll probably end up putting Tab, Return, and so on if I can get enough index finger keys for them.  I'd like to completely stop using my pinkies for modifier keys, which most keyboards force me to do.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 06 January 2014, 14:09:11
It's great to see function keys come back.  I would have missed them.

Any chance you could add another column of keys for the index fingers?  I'd like to get as many useful keys as I can near the thumbs and index fingers, since they're the strongest.  I was sad to see the innermost column reduced to three keys in order to make more room for the thumb cluster, though having useful thumb keys is more important than index finger keys.  Still, another column of index finger keys would really help make up for the loss.  I need lots of modifier keys for emacs, preferably enough so that each hand has Shift, Control, Meta, Alt, Super, Hyper, and Command, all in reasonable locations for the thumbs or index fingers, along with all the common punctuation chars like tab, return, backspace, etc.  My thumb clusters are looking to be pretty crowded, and index finger keys are the next best choice, and where I'll probably end up putting Tab, Return, and so on if I can get enough index finger keys for them.  I'd like to completely stop using my pinkies for modifier keys, which most keyboards force me to do.

There's still a column available since the controller can now handle an 8x8 array, so its possible. The only potential problem I see is in the ergo 70% having to be set a bit wider. But I will agree with you on the pinkies, I find it can be rather awkward & painful to constantly use them for modifiers. Also, since there will already be connectors on that side for keys for the 70% designs, it's entirely possible to add a set of keys, just like the F keys. The only issue comes with the housing, since the design is going injection molded, it's a fair amount of space to leave open for those keys. In saying that, it may not end up being much bigger than the current acrylic designs, since they've already got a roughly 6-7mm border from the keys. I'll have to do some test plates to work it out.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Dynamo on Mon, 06 January 2014, 22:04:32
The more keys the better.  :thumb:
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 09 January 2014, 02:05:03
Thought I'd throw out a quick update. I received the samples for the 3.5mm TRRS jack, microSD slot, micro & mini USB and a number of the 2mm connectors. I still need a few more samples, which I've ordered today, but I'm nearly done sourcing all the required parts. The other good news is that I've managed to source enough of the 3.5mm TRRS jack (the only part I had trouble sourcing in quantity) to build the batch of beta units, as well as a couple of development units for myself and whoever I can get to assist me with the firmware.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Thu, 09 January 2014, 04:46:27
Excellent stuff AcidFire!

I have a question, will the longer keys have stabilizers?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kfmfe04 on Thu, 09 January 2014, 16:28:16
AcidFire,

I know you've been working your butt off on many technical aspects, but could you throw some keyboard p0rn our way so we can see what your latest design is, in terms of ergonomics?

I remember seeing a post earlier of your S.O. buying you an amazing photo setup - perhaps you can throw a snapshot or two of your latest renditions our way?

TIA!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 10 January 2014, 12:39:06
AcidFire,
I know you've been working your butt off on many technical aspects, but could you throw some keyboard p0rn our way so we can see what your latest design is, in terms of ergonomics?

I remember seeing a post earlier of your S.O. buying you an amazing photo setup - perhaps you can throw a snapshot or two of your latest renditions our way?

TIA!
I wish I could! The latest revision is in various stages of design, from the completion of the new PCBs to the case which I've had several offers of help with, there isn't much to see at this point. I will however be cutting some new test plates tonight to show how the modularity with the f-keys and the extra column will work, but that won't be in a full case. I can take pics of that if you like.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: PhineasRex on Sat, 11 January 2014, 19:57:17
I check this thread every day hoping for more pictures of this amazing project.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Sat, 11 January 2014, 21:53:01
I check this thread every day hoping for more pictures of this amazing project.

My life's been a little easier now I turned email notify on. Now I just check my email obsessively...  ^-^
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: yakitysax on Wed, 15 January 2014, 05:43:40
Is the 70% still on track? Or did it get put on the back burner? (I'd go back and read, but holy hell this thread gets a lot of updates).

The 70% is just another configuration for the main board if I recall correctly, not much more than a different case and a couple different connectors on the inside.

Exactly this. I'm currently working on the version of the main clusters that would allow them to connect to a board in the middle without needing another controller. While there is still a bit more routing that needs to be done, I thought I'd share my current progress:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/boardside05.png)


I'm sure a few of you will be excited to see that I've included (and completed) the add on that would allow for an extra row of function keys, including the LED backlight. To the left of that is the new LED Indicator module. I'm currently toying with the idea of making it reversible, hence the through hole pad for the LEDs. I'm not sure if that will pan out yet, it'll all depend on whether the components end up in the way and whether SMD RGB LEDs end up being cheap enough in both purchase and assembly to warrant having two seperate boards. Currently, the pricing is looking at around 20-30.00 for the F keys module (less without the switches) & roughly 15.00 for the indicator modules (pair.)
What is the use of a SD slot on a keyboard?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Wed, 15 January 2014, 16:50:36
What is the use of a SD slot on a keyboard?

* 1x PCA9670 - This additional expander will act as a set of configurable dip switches (using shunts to stay cheap), telling the main CPU unit what kind of set up it is, whether it has a backlight, etc. I'm also considering using it purely as an address system, potentially setting aside a block of addresses, with the remaining open to custom user set up. A config file on the microSD card would instruct the CPU unit on how to handle each device.

Keylogger.  ;)  j/k

Config files.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kfmfe04 on Sun, 19 January 2014, 14:08:03
Quick question about keycaps for the present version of this board.

If I were to order an ergodox-compatible set of spherical doubleshots from 7-bit's Round 5, would it be sufficient to fit onto the current version of this board?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 20 January 2014, 14:13:43
What is the use of a SD slot on a keyboard?

* 1x PCA9670 - This additional expander will act as a set of configurable dip switches (using shunts to stay cheap), telling the main CPU unit what kind of set up it is, whether it has a backlight, etc. I'm also considering using it purely as an address system, potentially setting aside a block of addresses, with the remaining open to custom user set up. A config file on the microSD card would instruct the CPU unit on how to handle each device.

Keylogger.  ;)  j/k

Config files.

Also, in looking at what flash memory would cost, and what kind of space & requirements the board needs to support the BGA sized module that would fit, SD made far more sense. It's simplier to interface, there is more documentation & support for them available in the modding community, and it allows for a simple user upgrade/replacement.

As for why at all vs building it into the firmware, it comes down to accessibility & ensuring a simpler operation for the end users. While the Cortex M0 I've chosen does support live rewriting of the firmware, you can run into a huge problem if a cable gets pulled or something else happens while you're updating the firmware each time you edit your layout (which can be often if your trying to find the right scheme.) Even if there's a problem with your memory card, not only is it user servicable, but it is also something you can find in just about any electronics store at this point.

Quick question about keycaps for the present version of this board.

If I were to order an ergodox-compatible set of spherical doubleshots from 7-bit's Round 5, would it be sufficient to fit onto the current version of this board?

It should. The spacing is identical to the ergodox, the only difference has been the shift in the columns. I'm currently using off the shelf keycaps from Signature Plastics in all my testing. The only thing of note is that my board has a few more keys than an ergodox, so you might want to keep that in mind when you order.
Title: anotherjunkie
Post by: anotherjunkie on Mon, 20 January 2014, 14:25:22
Really excited to read through all the progress, and that we're going to be able to edit layouts on SD instead of firmware. I somehow missed that decision previously... While being able to make edits to the layout "on the keyboard" is a huge thing for me, frequently playing with the firmware itself has always made me hesitant.

Can't wait to get my hands on one. I almost caved on a 'dox before Christmas, but one look back here had me set straight.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kfmfe04 on Mon, 20 January 2014, 17:27:49
It should. The spacing is identical to the ergodox, the only difference has been the shift in the columns. I'm currently using off the shelf keycaps from Signature Plastics in all my testing. The only thing of note is that my board has a few more keys than an ergodox, so you might want to keep that in mind when you order.

For a standard ergodox set as a reference, (76 keys total or 38 keys a side):

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Round_5#HONEY.2FERGO.2FRED.2FWHITE_.28ErgoDox_red_white_kit_.7C_.2455.29 (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Round_5#HONEY.2FERGO.2FRED.2FWHITE_.28ErgoDox_red_white_kit_.7C_.2455.29)

What would be the sizes/labels/positions on the extra keys?

It would be great to prepare a full set of quality keycaps for the board - adds to the anticipation!

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 23 January 2014, 14:37:10
For a standard ergodox set as a reference, (76 keys total or 38 keys a side):

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Round_5#HONEY.2FERGO.2FRED.2FWHITE_.28ErgoDox_red_white_kit_.7C_.2455.29 (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Round_5#HONEY.2FERGO.2FRED.2FWHITE_.28ErgoDox_red_white_kit_.7C_.2455.29)

What would be the sizes/labels/positions on the extra keys?

It would be great to prepare a full set of quality keycaps for the board - adds to the anticipation!

Currently, the layout includes:

Split:
 - 6x 2u keys
 - 10x 1.5u keys
 - 66x 1u keys
Total: 82 keys

Ergo & Straight:
 - 16x 1.5u keys
 - 62x 1u keys
Total: 78 keys

However, more keys are available via the addon modules, so that needs to be kept in mind.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kfmfe04 on Thu, 23 January 2014, 15:01:53

Currently, the layout includes:

Split:
 - 6x 2u keys
 - 10x 1.5u keys
 - 66x 1u keys
Total: 82 keys

Ergo & Straight:
 - 16x 1.5u keys
 - 62x 1u keys
Total: 78 keys

However, more keys are available via the addon modules, so that needs to be kept in mind.

Thank you.  For reference the standard sets above includes 76 keys:
4 x 2u
12 x 1.5u
60 x 1u

so that means the following are missing/needed for split:
2 x 2u
6 x 1u

and for ergo:
4 x 1.5u
2 x 1u
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kfmfe04 on Thu, 23 January 2014, 16:23:23
Slightly OT, but for those of you also interested in Round 5, this is what I ordered for AcidFire's split configuration (white/red, white/black, black/red, all black possible sets):

HONEY/ERGO/RED/WHITE 1
HONEY/ERGO/BLACK 1
HONEY/MUIRIUM/BLANK 1
BLANK/R3U100D/WHITE 2
BLANK/R3U100D/BLACK 2
BLANK/R3U100D/RED 2
BLANK/R3U200/BLACK 2
BLANK/R3U200/RED 2

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Round_5 (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Round_5)

All keys are blank and I've ordered pairs of deep-dish WHITE BLACK RED for the F/J key positions (I LOVE deep-dish SPH!).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: daerid on Tue, 28 January 2014, 10:45:11
This thread needs to be stickied.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 28 January 2014, 11:03:18
It get so many posts, and it's so awesome, it should.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 28 January 2014, 12:03:37
So some interesting news this morning. A friend of mine who is sponsoring the Seattle Mini Maker Faire has offered me space in his rather large booth to show off a couple of working prototypes. The goal is to have everything done by March 17th so that I have time to have everything shipped down ahead of me. That leaves me with 47 days to finish the electronics, get the firmware running, and get a case designed and 3D printed. Thankfully, I should have help with all these things, so those of you in the Seattle area should come down to the Seattle Mini Maker Faire on the weekend of March 22nd and see all my hard work :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: MOZ on Tue, 28 January 2014, 12:30:14
So some interesting news this morning. A friend of mine who is sponsoring the Seattle Mini Maker Faire has offered me space in his rather large booth to show off a couple of working prototypes. The goal is to have everything done by March 17th so that I have time to have everything shipped down ahead of me. That leaves me with 47 days to finish the electronics, get the firmware running, and get a case designed and 3D printed. Thankfully, I should have help with all these things, so those of you in the Seattle area should come down to the Seattle Mini Maker Faire on the weekend of March 22nd and see all my hard work :D

Excellent news and congratulations!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Tue, 28 January 2014, 17:57:51
So some interesting news this morning. A friend of mine who is sponsoring the Seattle Mini Maker Faire has offered me space in his rather large booth to show off a couple of working prototypes. The goal is to have everything done by March 17th so that I have time to have everything shipped down ahead of me. That leaves me with 47 days to finish the electronics, get the firmware running, and get a case designed and 3D printed. Thankfully, I should have help with all these things, so those of you in the Seattle area should come down to the Seattle Mini Maker Faire on the weekend of March 22nd and see all my hard work :D

Great news! Might be a bit far for me to attend (13000km!), but I hope somebody will attend and put lots of good pictures up!!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Legorandir on Thu, 30 January 2014, 23:55:29
Hey!
AcidFire regarding pointing devises I found out about these:
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9320
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10835

When I was lurking trough Input Nirvanas signature kinesis thread and assorted cross-linked treads.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Fri, 31 January 2014, 05:16:23
Hey!
AcidFire regarding pointing devises I found out about these:
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9320
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10835

When I was lurking trough Input Nirvanas signature kinesis thread and assorted cross-linked treads.

That blackberry trackball thing looks good, pity it's out of stock.

Edit: actually doing a google search for "blackberry trackballer" came up with some places that have it in stock. Interesting.

Edit2: after reading some reviews on the quality of the blackberry trackball, I'm now less enthusiastic about this controller.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: hoggy on Fri, 31 January 2014, 07:12:26
The maker faire sounds like a good break.  Hope it works out. 

Don't forget that it doesn't have to be finished to your very high standards in order to show off the product...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 31 January 2014, 19:47:16
Hey!
AcidFire regarding pointing devises I found out about these:
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9320
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10835

When I was lurking trough Input Nirvanas signature kinesis thread and assorted cross-linked treads.

That blackberry trackball thing looks good, pity it's out of stock.

Edit: actually doing a google search for "blackberry trackballer" came up with some places that have it in stock. Interesting.

Edit2: after reading some reviews on the quality of the blackberry trackball, I'm now less enthusiastic about this controller.
I've actually got both sitting on my desk, and I haven't really enjoyed either of them tbh. I'm lucky because through the company I work for I can get these sorts of things below retail, which has let me try a couple of different options without breaking the bank. I'm still hard pressed to find a solution I enjoy more than the nub mouse.

The maker faire sounds like a good break.  Hope it works out. 

Don't forget that it doesn't have to be finished to your very high standards in order to show off the product...
This is something I've been reminding myself of. My current target is to get the electronics and the case done, since writing firmware isn't going to do much good if it isn't providing the comfort and strain relief that are the core goals of this project. If I can get it done as well, all the better.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: sordna on Sat, 01 February 2014, 04:33:27
By nub mouse you mean trackpoint? We have hope to get it? ???
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: tups on Sat, 01 February 2014, 06:58:47
I'd be more interested in something like clicky scroll wheels to use as left/right and up/down arrow keys. Never liked trackpoint mice much.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Sat, 01 February 2014, 08:51:01
I'd be more interested in something like clicky scroll wheels to use as left/right and up/down arrow keys. Never liked trackpoint mice much.

I've also never been that impressed with using trackpoints myself but after reading the comments at http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/05/touchpad-vs-trackpoint.html (http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/05/touchpad-vs-trackpoint.html) comparing touchpads and trackpoints, it sounds to me like people who give the trackpoint a bit of time to get used to end up liking them better. There wasn't much mention of trackballs there though.

I personally hate touchpads. Too much lifting of your finger to get across the whole screen, then if you turn the speed up, they're not accurate enough.

The article could be dated as it is from 2006, although the comments go up until 2011.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: yakitysax on Sun, 02 February 2014, 01:21:29
I'd be more interested in something like clicky scroll wheels to use as left/right and up/down arrow keys. Never liked trackpoint mice much.

I've also never been that impressed with using trackpoints myself but after reading the comments at http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/05/touchpad-vs-trackpoint.html (http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/05/touchpad-vs-trackpoint.html) comparing touchpads and trackpoints, it sounds to me like people who give the trackpoint a bit of time to get used to end up liking them better. There wasn't much mention of trackballs there though.

I personally hate touchpads. Too much lifting of your finger to get across the whole screen, then if you turn the speed up, they're not accurate enough.

The article could be dated as it is from 2006, although the comments go up until 2011.
I prefer trackpoints still, but the older trackpads were a lot less useful than the multi-touch ones made by Apple or Logitech, which are the only decent ones made and worth mentioning IMO. I prefer trackballs to either, but they are not easily implemented in a keyboard regrettably.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Sun, 02 February 2014, 04:32:20
I prefer trackpoints still, but the older trackpads were a lot less useful than the multi-touch ones made by Apple or Logitech, which are the only decent ones made and worth mentioning IMO. I prefer trackballs to either, but they are not easily implemented in a keyboard regrettably.

A small trackball could be implemented in a keyboard, like the smaller ones in wireless media keyboards. I had one that was ok, but you still had to move your hand over to the trackball. What I think would be really cool is one that you could move with your thumb without leaving the home row. That's what I was thinking of with the blackberry trackball, but it sounds like garbage from people's reviews of it. I might look into trackpoints. Not sure how to get it working even if I do get a hold of one, but I'll order one off ebay and give it a go.

[attach=1]
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Mon, 03 February 2014, 23:36:12
Looks like good progress acidfire! On a related note did you see the rgb corsair demos at CES? Really makes me want to grab this upgrade on your board even more. I am excited that corsair is making them fully addressable and providing an API to write your own code.

 As usually let me know when your ready for both the standard and the 70% board rgb upgrade or not. Just got my latest tube amp built so I'm ready to get back to soldering!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: daerid on Wed, 05 February 2014, 13:12:37
I would love to have a trackpoint integrated into the 70% model. That would be sex
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 07 February 2014, 11:30:07
I'd be more interested in something like clicky scroll wheels to use as left/right and up/down arrow keys. Never liked trackpoint mice much.

I've also never been that impressed with using trackpoints myself but after reading the comments at http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/05/touchpad-vs-trackpoint.html (http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/05/touchpad-vs-trackpoint.html) comparing touchpads and trackpoints, it sounds to me like people who give the trackpoint a bit of time to get used to end up liking them better. There wasn't much mention of trackballs there though.

I personally hate touchpads. Too much lifting of your finger to get across the whole screen, then if you turn the speed up, they're not accurate enough.

The article could be dated as it is from 2006, although the comments go up until 2011.
I prefer trackpoints still, but the older trackpads were a lot less useful than the multi-touch ones made by Apple or Logitech, which are the only decent ones made and worth mentioning IMO. I prefer trackballs to either, but they are not easily implemented in a keyboard regrettably.

Either trackpoint or trackball, I'm definitely still looking at making it happen. It may just end up being a stretch goal on the KS ;)

Looks like good progress acidfire! On a related note did you see the rgb corsair demos at CES? Really makes me want to grab this upgrade on your board even more. I am excited that corsair is making them fully addressable and providing an API to write your own code.

 As usually let me know when your ready for both the standard and the 70% board rgb upgrade or not. Just got my latest tube amp built so I'm ready to get back to soldering!

I did! It's very frustrating to see that the clear key switches that are designed to fit an RGB LED are exclusive to Corsair, but then again that would mean you'd have to completely replace your setup in a configuration like mine, so I feel a bit better knowing that mine should work quite nicely as an addon for those that want it.

On the development side, I've taken a bit of a step back to ensure that the boards are done and will work 100%, and instead of working from schematics on paper and in my head, I'm building them properly in Altium before designing the new boards. This has been massively beneficial in a couple of ways, including coming across a different way of setting up the controllers that drops $12 cost/$30 retail from the price :D I've also changed the pattern for the key switches a bit, which potentially allows for a surface mount, bottom entry header below the key switch, allowing you to change your LEDs/Diodes without needing a soldering iron  :thumb:.

The only thing I'm currently debating on is the inclusion of the buzzer on the default model. Because of the new change of the controller, there wouldn't be 1 included in a kit there would be 4, one for each controller board. If I source them right now from one of the bigger distributors, they potentially add $9 - $13 to the retail price. Just like the RGB LEDs I was looking at, this is unacceptable, and so I have a couple of quote requests out to chinese suppliers, if the pricing comes back at 0.50 or lower per unit, their inclusion will have a minimal impact on the cost and you'll be able to make your keyboard sing to you :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Fri, 07 February 2014, 11:44:00
Awesome! I love the IDEA of switching out the LEDs without soldering. I don't mind soldering but with keyboards their is so much of it, especially with the LEDs too.

Yeah I didn't like that the Cherry ones would work with any setup and I'm definitely on board for yours! To be honest I am surprised corsair made it addressable. I spoke with one of their higher end reps over a year ago and specifically told them how I had tested surface mount RGB leds and thought they were the way to go but specifically mentioned it HAD to be programmable and addressable because with so many options it has so much potential that would be wasted without an API. Not sure it influenced their decision but at the time he laughed at my suggestion on both the RGB surface mount and making it programmable so I guess I will never know.

Also the audio sounds like a great idea as well but you are right adding it with tons of cost isn't a good solution unless it can be added on separately if a user wants to source them his/her self.

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: hoggy on Sat, 08 February 2014, 03:07:08
As for the buzzer, I've got my Kinesis set up to bleep when a key is activated - it's a fantastic feature and well worth it (well, I think so anyway). 

If you're using them to help the user from bottoming out, then you won't really need a bleep on the modifier keys - I don't know about anyone else, but I def. bottom out on those.  You might be able to cut costs by only having two buzzers.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Sat, 08 February 2014, 06:44:48
I can't think of anything more annoying than a keyboard with a buzzer on it.  :eek:

My girlfriend would kill me, and I'd want to kill myself!!  :p
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: sordna on Sat, 08 February 2014, 10:57:23
Buzzer is configurable bro, you can turn it off :-) It's actually quieter than having say cherry blues.

Anyway, for me a buzzer on my keyboards is a must, but I'm happy to solder it myself if there's provision for it... I wouldn't want to have to drill holes or hack the firmware as I had to do (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg840977#msg840977) on the Ergodox. The buzzer I used on my Ergodox is this, I paid $1.95 retail:
http://www.abra-electronics.com/products/COM%252d07950-Buzzer-%252d-PC-Mount-12mm-2.048kHz.html
It's sparkfun model COM-07950, also known as CET12A3.5.  It only needs a brief voltage applied, no waveforms or anything. It buzzes itself, at around 2khz.

Chirping away in my ears as I type this, it's an amazing help to avoid bottoming out on cherry reds. :-)
Click for my ergodox buzzer sound sample. (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=42231.0;attach=20386) First I type without the buzzer, then with the buzzer on.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Sat, 08 February 2014, 11:17:39
To each their own. Both of those sounds were much louder than I'd want...

Enjoy your buzzing!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Sat, 08 February 2014, 14:54:02
The Kinesis sound is much quieter than the browns. I like it
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kaltar on Sun, 09 February 2014, 19:17:12
The Kinesis sound is much quieter than the browns. I like it

Is not quieter. The keys use a broader spectrum of frequencies, so it gives the impression of being louder. (Additionally, you can type really loud if you have no o-rings)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: yakitysax on Sun, 09 February 2014, 20:20:52
I'd be more interested in something like clicky scroll wheels to use as left/right and up/down arrow keys. Never liked trackpoint mice much.

I've also never been that impressed with using trackpoints myself but after reading the comments at http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/05/touchpad-vs-trackpoint.html (http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/05/touchpad-vs-trackpoint.html) comparing touchpads and trackpoints, it sounds to me like people who give the trackpoint a bit of time to get used to end up liking them better. There wasn't much mention of trackballs there though.

I personally hate touchpads. Too much lifting of your finger to get across the whole screen, then if you turn the speed up, they're not accurate enough.

The article could be dated as it is from 2006, although the comments go up until 2011.
I prefer trackpoints still, but the older trackpads were a lot less useful than the multi-touch ones made by Apple or Logitech, which are the only decent ones made and worth mentioning IMO. I prefer trackballs to either, but they are not easily implemented in a keyboard regrettably.

Either trackpoint or trackball, I'm definitely still looking at making it happen. It may just end up being a stretch goal on the KS ;)

Looks like good progress acidfire! On a related note did you see the rgb corsair demos at CES? Really makes me want to grab this upgrade on your board even more. I am excited that corsair is making them fully addressable and providing an API to write your own code.

 As usually let me know when your ready for both the standard and the 70% board rgb upgrade or not. Just got my latest tube amp built so I'm ready to get back to soldering!

I did! It's very frustrating to see that the clear key switches that are designed to fit an RGB LED are exclusive to Corsair, but then again that would mean you'd have to completely replace your setup in a configuration like mine, so I feel a bit better knowing that mine should work quite nicely as an addon for those that want it.

On the development side, I've taken a bit of a step back to ensure that the boards are done and will work 100%, and instead of working from schematics on paper and in my head, I'm building them properly in Altium before designing the new boards. This has been massively beneficial in a couple of ways, including coming across a different way of setting up the controllers that drops $12 cost/$30 retail from the price :D I've also changed the pattern for the key switches a bit, which potentially allows for a surface mount, bottom entry header below the key switch, allowing you to change your LEDs/Diodes without needing a soldering iron  :thumb:.

The only thing I'm currently debating on is the inclusion of the buzzer on the default model. Because of the new change of the controller, there wouldn't be 1 included in a kit there would be 4, one for each controller board. If I source them right now from one of the bigger distributors, they potentially add $9 - $13 to the retail price. Just like the RGB LEDs I was looking at, this is unacceptable, and so I have a couple of quote requests out to chinese suppliers, if the pricing comes back at 0.50 or lower per unit, their inclusion will have a minimal impact on the cost and you'll be able to make your keyboard sing to you :D
On that trackpoint board that you linked, do you know where one would source the actual joystick part for it similar in size to the IBM/Lenovo ones? I am wanting to put a couple in a custom board I am working on but would prefer to not have to harvest existing keyboards to do so, so that would be grand if I could find it.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: yakitysax on Sun, 09 February 2014, 20:26:26
Also Acidfire, have you tried out the Kinesis Advantage or another keyboard that uses 1.25x keycaps on the sides instead of 1.5x? 1.25x would shave a marginal amount of size off the keyboard and at least personally between the 1.5x that the Ergodox uses and the 1.25x the Kinesis Advantage uses I do not see much benefit with the marginal increase in size for those keys myself. It is just as easy to accurately place the 1.25x keys for me at least.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Sun, 09 February 2014, 20:43:30
Either trackpoint or trackball, I'm definitely still looking at making it happen. It may just end up being a stretch goal on the KS ;)

Sorry, excuse my ignorance, but what's "the KS"?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: domesticbark on Sun, 09 February 2014, 21:06:58
Either trackpoint or trackball, I'm definitely still looking at making it happen. It may just end up being a stretch goal on the KS ;)

Sorry, excuse my ignorance, but what's "the KS"?

https://www.kickstarter.com/
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: DSlayerZX on Mon, 10 February 2014, 00:04:53
to be honest, I am not sure if a track ball is needed since chances are, the keyboard is going to out live it.

I am also not sure if it's necessary, can't we just designate one layer of the keyboard mapping and make it function as mouse up down left right per key?


Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kfmfe04 on Mon, 10 February 2014, 03:19:45
to be honest, I am not sure if a track ball is needed since chances are, the keyboard is going to out live it.

I am also not sure if it's necessary, can't we just designate one layer of the keyboard mapping and make it function as mouse up down left right per key?

I agree - I prefer to use the keyboard as much as possible - since this will be a programmable keyboard, that means I should be able to avoid touching a mouse/touchpad/trackball even more so than I am doing now.

If I really need such an input, I actually have plenty of spare USB mice and trackpads that I can use.  Having the option to pick that secondary input is nice.

Also, a keyboard with standard keys is highly preferable to a weird one with a nub (etc) which would require special keys, even if it's only one or two.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: prasopes on Mon, 10 February 2014, 06:31:02
Either trackpoint or trackball, I'm definitely still looking at making it happen. It may just end up being a stretch goal on the KS ;)

That's great news! The problem I have with split ergonomic keyboards and mice is that these keyboards are always too wide to accommodate a mouse next to them. You end up either having an uncomfortable grip on the mouse as it's too far to the right or you have to move the keyboard to the left, decreasing typing comfort.
By the way, are there any patent issues with the trackpoint?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: tups on Mon, 10 February 2014, 10:39:39
I agree with DSlayerZX and kfmfe04, I prefer a smaller keyboard plus external mouse (though I usually place the mouse "below" the keyboard, i.e. towards me, so width isn't such an issue).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: nazarie on Tue, 11 February 2014, 11:04:46
Did you happen to see how the Cherry MX RGB switches actually work?  They are just clear enclosures with SMD RGB LEDs under.  Sounds like your designs for backlighting will work perfectly with those switches once they are generally available.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: fengor on Wed, 12 February 2014, 12:55:39
Wow, what an epic read. I just registered to say how awesome this is and that I am looking forward to the kickstarter :)

Sadly i think i am too late for the beta ain't i?

awesome kudos from germany
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Wed, 12 February 2014, 16:33:36
I think there's a lot of people who are eagerly awaiting this one! I know I am.

G'day mate from Australia.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kraftman on Wed, 19 February 2014, 08:05:00
I think there's a good chance that this is tested, improved, and fully funded on KS before I receive my massdrop ergodox order from November
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: FiskFisk33 on Tue, 25 February 2014, 03:08:15
Any news acidfire?  :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 26 February 2014, 11:34:31
Really quick update, I've finally gotten all the newest revisions of the board designs done, and the files are going to the board house later today. The designs aren't perfect and will still need a couple of tweaks for the final version, however at this point I would consider them near production ready. While developing the boards, I saw an opportunity to eliminate a pair of the controllers as unnecessary, which helps to drop the retail price right now. Unfortunately I can't give a completely solid number for final retail for diy/completed kits until I hear from Cherry and talk to SP a bit more, but right now it's looking to be around an $80-100 kit (including the cases) for those of you who already have your switches & caps :D

There are also a couple of new developments with the designs that I'll be waiting (impatiently) to share, but I want to have the boards in hand and design done first.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: hoggy on Wed, 26 February 2014, 11:51:55
Wow!  That's a lot cheaper than I thought.  That cape must be getting some serious use.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Demonmaker on Wed, 26 February 2014, 13:21:00
Cheers for the update..

looking forward to seeing the near final product
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: FiskFisk33 on Thu, 27 February 2014, 00:37:10
awesome!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: daerid on Thu, 27 February 2014, 11:39:24
F**kin aye!!! Way better than the ErgoDox price. Can't wait!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: JPG on Thu, 27 February 2014, 12:18:00
Hum, very nice price!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 27 February 2014, 14:13:00
Sorry guys, I just want to make sure it's absolutely clear, the $80-100 estimation is a kit with no key caps or switches. Unfortunately the key caps & switches even in volume add roughly $120 to the price tag after mark up (and that's with making certain assumptions about the volume prices of the switches.) I'm going to be calling the reps from SP & Cherry directly to see what kind of volume I need to get the price a bit lower, but I'm determined to keep the base kits under $200 (225-250 preassembled.)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: JPG on Thu, 27 February 2014, 14:18:47
Sorry guys, I just want to make sure it's absolutely clear, the $80-100 estimation is a kit with no key caps or switches. Unfortunately the key caps & switches, even in volume add roughly $120 to the price tag after mark up (and that's with making certain assumptions about the volume prices of the switches.) I'm going to be calling the reps from SP & Cherry directly to see what kind of volume I need to get the price a bit lower, but I'm determined to keep the base kits under $200 (225-250 preassembled.)


I got you, but I have enough switches and enough keycaps, maybe not all the mods depending on final layout, but at worst I put a smaller cap or no cap at some places. Not perfect, but good enough for me. If I fall in love with the layout, then I will maybe look for a full keycap set! My main problem right now is my new love for the model F lol, but I really want to try an ergo keyboard anyway, so if I can get one for 100$ I will be super happy!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 28 February 2014, 12:30:10
I realized last night it's been awhile since I've really shown anything new, so I thought I'd share a little teaser of whats coming:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/controller-render.png)
(The silver disk the size of a quarter, for reference)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/straight-render.png)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: utku on Fri, 28 February 2014, 13:21:53
I realized last night it's been awhile since I've really shown anything new, so I thought I'd share a little teaser of whats coming:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/controller-render.png)

(The silver disk the size of a quarter, for reference)
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/straight-render.png)


there seems to be one too many chips on that board, might it be that this keyboard has bluetooth capability? if so, where should i throw my handful of cash? :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 28 February 2014, 13:27:15
there seems to be one too many chips on that board, might it be that this keyboard has bluetooth capability? if so, where should i throw my handful of cash? :)

What you see on that board is the processor, micro sd reader, peizo & vreg, as well as the supporting resistors/capacitors. However, the 6 pin header at the top of the board is for the bluetooth addon ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Fri, 28 February 2014, 23:46:32
I realized last night it's been awhile since I've really shown anything new, so I thought I'd share a little teaser of whats coming:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/controller-render.png)

(The silver disk the size of a quarter, for reference)
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/straight-render.png)


Lovely looking board, but I thought the thumbswitches were supposed to be lower than the rest of the board, like on the grand piano?

I know you might be too far along to change it, but I'm wondering why you didn't give it a bit of a tilt inwards on each hand, like that nice 70% board you made? Here's a pic of something that I've been working on, I find that my hands are happiest at about this angle with my ergodox:

[attach=1]
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Sat, 01 March 2014, 01:33:17
I realized last night it's been awhile since I've really shown anything new, so I thought I'd share a little teaser of whats coming:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/controller-render.png)

(The silver disk the size of a quarter, for reference)
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/straight-render.png)


Lovely looking board, but I thought the thumbswitches were supposed to be lower than the rest of the board, like on the grand piano?

I know you might be too far along to change it, but I'm wondering why you didn't give it a bit of a tilt inwards on each hand, like that nice 70% board you made? Here's a pic of something that I've been working on, I find that my hands are happiest at about this angle with my ergodox:

(Attachment Link)

If you flip back through the thread, that layout is for the straight board design, which is meant to be smaller for travel. That's also four seperate PCBs:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/sample-cluster-01.jpg)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/sample-cluster-02.jpg)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Thor on Sat, 01 March 2014, 06:58:03
I really wish you could make the keyboard detachable in the middle...now then it would truly be the perfect keyboard.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Sat, 01 March 2014, 23:45:16
I really wish you could make the keyboard detachable in the middle...now then it would truly be the perfect keyboard.

Who's saying that's not an option? ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Thor on Sun, 02 March 2014, 03:06:57
Well I'm glad to hear that....because even if it's design is ergonomic by default being detachable in the middle would really offer the best I could ever imagine in terms of ergonomy....and I really like having my hands extending in an "outwards fashion"(I don't know if that makes any sense...English is not my native language) ..I don't like being constricted.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: yakitysax on Mon, 03 March 2014, 05:41:28
Did you scrap using either a trackpoint mouse or trackball in the keyboard? The trackpoint would be immensely valuable, especially if there was one on both sides of the keyboard. That would make available somewhere between 10-18 bindable keys (10 if just cardinal plus down button, 18 if diagonals also) keys per layer that are easily accessible. I would use those for things like window and app management that I like to access frequently and quickly but not waste a short chord on.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 03 March 2014, 11:33:21
Well I'm glad to hear that....because even if it's design is ergonomic by default being detachable in the middle would really offer the best I could ever imagine in terms of ergonomy....and I really like having my hands extending in an "outwards fashion"(I don't know if that makes any sense...English is not my native language) ..I don't like being constricted.
I completely agree, and it's one of the reasons this project started in the first place. I'm currently working on a design that merges the split & ergonomic designs, with the ability to completely split them as well. Laser cut acrylic was going to make that a complete pain, but moving to injection molding I think will sort the issues I was having out.

Did you scrap using either a trackpoint mouse or trackball in the keyboard? The trackpoint would be immensely valuable, especially if there was one on both sides of the keyboard. That would make available somewhere between 10-18 bindable keys (10 if just cardinal plus down button, 18 if diagonals also) keys per layer that are easily accessible. I would use those for things like window and app management that I like to access frequently and quickly but not waste a short chord on.
Yes, but it's still low on the priority list currently. It's looking more and more like I'd have to go with a trackball, which will require some custom parts. Unfortunately, I'm still not solid enough with solidworks (ha!) to design that sort of thing, but I'm working with a mechanical engineer who is.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: daerid on Mon, 03 March 2014, 12:36:59
Sorry guys, I just want to make sure it's absolutely clear, the $80-100 estimation is a kit with no key caps or switches. Unfortunately the key caps & switches even in volume add roughly $120 to the price tag after mark up (and that's with making certain assumptions about the volume prices of the switches.) I'm going to be calling the reps from SP & Cherry directly to see what kind of volume I need to get the price a bit lower, but I'm determined to keep the base kits under $200 (225-250 preassembled.)

Okay, thanks for clearing that up. Even if the price is comparable to the ErgoDox, I think the Nexus will be a much better value. Keep up the great work!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: John Venture on Mon, 03 March 2014, 19:51:24
Will there be any love for ISO users?

I love the ergo dox but what prevents me from buying it is that I wouldn't be able to install 2 keys where they should be, and the Nexus' layouts seems to go the same route :(

Do you think you could make 2 slots here to counter this?

(http://tof.canardpc.com/preview/d4da0af7-b186-4d57-9450-5d235c189005.jpg) (http://tof.canardpc.com/view/d4da0af7-b186-4d57-9450-5d235c189005.jpg)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Kitesurfer on Tue, 04 March 2014, 06:39:47
+1 with John, thanks for noticing.
This is the first glitch for me, otherwise it's an awesome project !
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: vatin on Wed, 05 March 2014, 22:46:21
I think the op should update the op post with all these development pictures and progress status instead of having them spread across thousands of post.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kfmfe04 on Thu, 06 March 2014, 04:49:09
I think the op should update the op post with all these development pictures and progress status instead of having them spread across thousands of post.

I like update-to-date news as any here, but I'm quite content that AcidFire spends his valuable time working on the project rather than deal with trivialities such as this.

If you don't want to read the entire thread, you can either check the last few pages or wait for his final announcement (or new thread) for the finished project.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Thu, 06 March 2014, 05:41:23
I think the op should update the op post with all these development pictures and progress status instead of having them spread across thousands of post.

I like update-to-date news as any here, but I'm quite content that AcidFire spends his valuable time working on the project rather than deal with trivialities such as this.

If you don't want to read the entire thread, you can either check the last few pages or wait for his final announcement (or new thread) for the finished project.

Or be a stalker like me and go to http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=28423 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=28423) to see all his posts.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: wasabah on Thu, 06 March 2014, 12:37:54
Or be a stalker like me and go to http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=28423 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=28423) to see all his posts.

Haha I'm also constantly doing that! :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 06 March 2014, 13:51:33
Will there be any love for ISO users?

I love the ergo dox but what prevents me from buying it is that I wouldn't be able to install 2 keys where they should be, and the Nexus' layouts seems to go the same route :(

Do you think you could make 2 slots here to counter this?

(http://tof.canardpc.com/preview/d4da0af7-b186-4d57-9450-5d235c189005.jpg) (http://tof.canardpc.com/view/d4da0af7-b186-4d57-9450-5d235c189005.jpg)
It's something I'll have to look into as I'm not totally familar with the ISO layout (or why the slots would be needed), but I wouldn't rule out the possibility either. Because it's a modular board (including the plate), doing a custom layout/change is always in the card, the only concern is ensuring it fits in the casing.

I think the op should update the op post with all these development pictures and progress status instead of having them spread across thousands of post.

I like update-to-date news as any here, but I'm quite content that AcidFire spends his valuable time working on the project rather than deal with trivialities such as this.

If you don't want to read the entire thread, you can either check the last few pages or wait for his final announcement (or new thread) for the finished project.

Or be a stalker like me and go to http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=28423 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=28423) to see all his posts.
Funny enough, I do that too :P Right now I just don't have enough time to cull everything and bring it into the first post, but when I get back from Seattle I will definitely take the time to shift everything around into an easier to find format. I'll also be putting up a proper webpage detailing current progress/features etc. as well before I go, so that might be a better spot for that info.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: John Venture on Thu, 06 March 2014, 20:01:34
It's something I'll have to look into as I'm not totally familar with the ISO layout (or why the slots would be needed), but I wouldn't rule out the possibility either. Because it's a modular board (including the plate), doing a custom layout/change is always in the card, the only concern is ensuring it fits in the casing.

The main differences between the ISO norm (EU) and ANSI (US) are:
- number of keys (105 vs 104)
- smaller left shift (next to which the additional key is set)
- 'tetris' shaped return key

The shape and size of the return and shift keys don't matter here, but on an AZERTY (French) layout the additional key is '<' (and '>'), which is a pain to those HTML developers who want to use an ANSI keyboard. On a BEPO layout (the French Dvorak) it is 'ê', which can also be formed using a combination of keys (alt gr + 6 + e) but it defeats the purpose of having diacritical characters handy - which are very common in several European countries.

E.g: Not tonight honey, I have a headache : Pas ce soir chérie, j'ai mal à la tête.

P.S: not that French people often use that sentence :)

Sprit's designed a PCB which is compatible for both ISO and ANSI, if that can be of any help: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50580.0

Here's an ISO BEPO layout for reference:

(http://download.tuxfamily.org/dvorak/wiki/images/Carte-bepo-complete.png)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Dynamo on Fri, 07 March 2014, 16:58:04
The shape and size of the return and shift keys don't matter here, but on an AZERTY (French) layout the additional key is '<' (and '>'), which is a pain to those HTML developers who want to use an ANSI keyboard. On a BEPO layout (the French Dvorak) it is 'ê', which can also be formed using a combination of keys (alt gr + 6 + e) but it defeats the purpose of having diacritical characters handy - which are very common in several European countries.

E.g: Not tonight honey, I have a headache : Pas ce soir chérie, j'ai mal à la tête.

In the Swedish keyboard layout you also have åäö (ÅÄÖ) as separate keys, e.g. on the right side of the P and L keys using the qwerty-layout. So, as I´ve said earlier, the more keys the better.

Not tonight honey, I have a headache. : Inte ikväll älskling, jag har huvudvärk.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: eviltobz on Sat, 08 March 2014, 08:08:14
something to bear in mind with this sort of keyboard though is with the layer switching functionality that can be programmed in, and good use of some thumb keys to control them, you suddenly have a far greater number of distinct key presses available. I've still got keys on my ergodox (that i'm typing this with) that i've not got assigned to anything yet due to the usefulness of the layering system.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: tups on Sat, 08 March 2014, 13:33:17
Great work AcidFire. Definitely want one of those boards!

For anyone interested, I have some XKB (linux) configs for multi-layer layouts (ErgoDox and standard keyboards) here: https://github.com/dhardy/keyboard/blob/master/cyborg16
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: oystein.krog on Sun, 09 March 2014, 07:44:21
Are you still accepting beta applications?
The website seems to be down...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kfmfe04 on Sun, 09 March 2014, 23:49:31
All I know is, once this board is done, I will definitely configure a hhkb-like layout and post it to AcidFire's site for others to use... 

I'm also looking forward to playing around with other possibilities like double-tap CTRL for caps-lock, etc - should be fun.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: yakitysax on Mon, 10 March 2014, 01:27:21
All I know is, once this board is done, I will definitely configure a hhkb-like layout and post it to AcidFire's site for others to use... 

I'm also looking forward to playing around with other possibilities like double-tap CTRL for caps-lock, etc - should be fun.
That sort of thing is already achievable with software like AutoHotkey, KeyRemap4Macbook, or xmodmap, xinit, and xcape, probably some others that I have forgotten. It's what I use to double up keys, which is fantastic, especially for large programs that have a lot of bindings.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 10 March 2014, 12:50:39
All I know is, once this board is done, I will definitely configure a hhkb-like layout and post it to AcidFire's site for others to use... 

I'm also looking forward to playing around with other possibilities like double-tap CTRL for caps-lock, etc - should be fun.
That sort of thing is already achievable with software like AutoHotkey, KeyRemap4Macbook, or xmodmap, xinit, and xcape, probably some others that I have forgotten. It's what I use to double up keys, which is fantastic, especially for large programs that have a lot of bindings.

While this sort of thing is definitely managable with software, I'm happy that the board will support this sort of thing on board, especially since it will not only allow it to be layer specific but also not require software for those situations where you can't install something (gov/school/military etc.)

And I'm looking forward to what you come up with kfm, I know one of the guys helping with the programming will want to check out your hhkb (he loves his.)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: QuadGMoto on Mon, 10 March 2014, 15:03:18
I am definitely looking forward to a successful conclusion of this project.  :thumb:

I also rely heavily on a numeric keypad. Will there be a matching, equally programmable keypad to go with it? Or is there an existing project that covers that base?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 10 March 2014, 16:11:56
I am definitely looking forward to a successful conclusion of this project.  :thumb:

I also rely heavily on a numeric keypad. Will there be a matching, equally programmable keypad to go with it? Or is there an existing project that covers that base?

There are a couple of options currently under development for this, one of which I'll be revealing hopefully in the next two weeks.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: tups on Thu, 13 March 2014, 05:12:15
While this sort of thing is definitely managable with software, I'm happy that the board will support this sort of thing on board, especially since it will not only allow it to be layer specific but also not require software for those situations where you can't install something (gov/school/military etc.)
Good idea, but I hate how limited this ends up (e.g. alternative bindings for things like @, *, (, { require simulating pressing shift — and they still won't work right for many people because a lot of non-US layouts move these characters around). May still be the best option for many people though.

I also rely heavily on a numeric keypad. Will there be a matching, equally programmable keypad to go with it? Or is there an existing project that covers that base?
I use the right side of my ErgoDox as a a numpad, and it works great (also means I can get F-keys on the Ergo). Have a look here (you'll need key binding software): https://github.com/dhardy/keyboard/blob/master/cyborg16#L50
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kfmfe04 on Thu, 13 March 2014, 05:59:20
While this sort of thing is definitely managable with software, I'm happy that the board will support this sort of thing on board, especially since it will not only allow it to be layer specific but also not require software for those situations where you can't install something (gov/school/military etc.)
Good idea, but I hate how limited this ends up (e.g. alternative bindings for things like @, *, (, { require simulating pressing shift — and they still won't work right for many people because a lot of non-US layouts move these characters around). May still be the best option for many people though.

I also rely heavily on a numeric keypad. Will there be a matching, equally programmable keypad to go with it? Or is there an existing project that covers that base?
I use the right side of my ErgoDox as a a numpad, and it works great (also means I can get F-keys on the Ergo). Have a look here (you'll need key binding software): https://github.com/dhardy/keyboard/blob/master/cyborg16#L50

I think you are mis-interpreting AcidFire's solution.

IIUC, I believe AcidFire intends his boards to be programmable/firmware driven so I don't think your requirements are an issue.  You can look at the source code, configure the behavior that you prefer, compile, load the firmware onto the board, and use.  If you are not technical, you will be able to use the firmware revisions that other developers come up with. 

Firmware-driven solutions tend to be very low level (essentially at or right above the driver level) so you are rarely limited with weirdness that you may get with bindings in standard remapping software (none of this requiring a shift-key for * garbage).

AFAIK, you typically are only limited by the hardware/standards...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: tups on Thu, 13 March 2014, 08:53:38
AFAIK, you typically are only limited by the hardware/standards...

Which, as I understand it, is a problem: they way a keyboard communicates with a computer using the standard USB HID standard (or for that matter, PS/2) is to report the scan codes of the keys which have been pressed or released — so, for example, a keyboard can report that "shift" was pressed, "2" pressed, then "2" released (actually, the scan codes for "shift" and "2" not the key mapping) — but depending on keyboard layout shift+2 may mean " or may mean @ (or maybe something else).

Working higher up the chain with whatever software the OS uses to map scan codes to characters doesn't have this problem, and additionally allows characters not usually found on keyboards (€, —, →, ∋, α, ζ, ≥, ß, ... : a small sample of what is on my keyboard).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 13 March 2014, 14:24:43
AFAIK, you typically are only limited by the hardware/standards...

Which, as I understand it, is a problem: they way a keyboard communicates with a computer using the standard USB HID standard (or for that matter, PS/2) is to report the scan codes of the keys which have been pressed or released — so, for example, a keyboard can report that "shift" was pressed, "2" pressed, then "2" released (actually, the scan codes for "shift" and "2" not the key mapping) — but depending on keyboard layout shift+2 may mean " or may mean @ (or maybe something else).

Working higher up the chain with whatever software the OS uses to map scan codes to characters doesn't have this problem, and additionally allows characters not usually found on keyboards (€, —, →, ∋, α, ζ, ≥, ß, ... : a small sample of what is on my keyboard).
This is true, the character itself isn't mapped, just the scan code. However, Where a character code would normally require something like Shift+2, the mapping on the board can be set so that is still a single keypress and it does the combo for you (macros basically).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Thu, 13 March 2014, 17:28:58
While this sort of thing is definitely managable with software, I'm happy that the board will support this sort of thing on board, especially since it will not only allow it to be layer specific but also not require software for those situations where you can't install something (gov/school/military etc.)
Good idea, but I hate how limited this ends up (e.g. alternative bindings for things like @, *, (, { require simulating pressing shift — and they still won't work right for many people because a lot of non-US layouts move these characters around). May still be the best option for many people though.

I also rely heavily on a numeric keypad. Will there be a matching, equally programmable keypad to go with it? Or is there an existing project that covers that base?
I use the right side of my ErgoDox as a a numpad, and it works great (also means I can get F-keys on the Ergo). Have a look here (you'll need key binding software): https://github.com/dhardy/keyboard/blob/master/cyborg16#L50

I have an ergodox running the TMK firmware, and it is really ridiculously programmable. I feel that I can really set it up to do almost anything that you can think of. The only real problem is remembering what you set it to do!

I have one of the thumbkeys set as a layer switcher, so while holding that, the right hand becomes a numpad. If you tap the same thumbkey twice, it will lock onto the numpad layer. If you can touchtype on a numpad, it's perfect.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: QuadGMoto on Tue, 18 March 2014, 07:53:41
So some interesting news this morning. A friend of mine who is sponsoring the Seattle Mini Maker Faire has offered me space in his rather large booth to show off a couple of working prototypes. The goal is to have everything done by March 17th so that I have time to have everything shipped down ahead of me. That leaves me with 47 days to finish the electronics, get the firmware running, and get a case designed and 3D printed. Thankfully, I should have help with all these things, so those of you in the Seattle area should come down to the Seattle Mini Maker Faire on the weekend of March 22nd and see all my hard work :D

That's this weekend already! I hope it goes well, AcidFire!  :thumb:
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: hoggy on Tue, 18 March 2014, 08:40:22
That's gone quick!  Good luck with getting it ready and hope it goes well!

 
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
Post by: EvillePanda on Tue, 18 March 2014, 15:40:40
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)



Show Image
(http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6axgxYPry1robh3ho1_250.gif)


Ditto.  I just saw this thanks to daerid.  Gimme!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: router.exe on Tue, 18 March 2014, 16:08:35
So some interesting news this morning. A friend of mine who is sponsoring the Seattle Mini Maker Faire has offered me space in his rather large booth to show off a couple of working prototypes. The goal is to have everything done by March 17th so that I have time to have everything shipped down ahead of me. That leaves me with 47 days to finish the electronics, get the firmware running, and get a case designed and 3D printed. Thankfully, I should have help with all these things, so those of you in the Seattle area should come down to the Seattle Mini Maker Faire on the weekend of March 22nd and see all my hard work :D

what booth will you be at? i'm planning on going to the faire on sunday.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: hoggy on Wed, 19 March 2014, 02:38:42
Router, could you please take some photos, and maybe buy him a beer?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: router.exe on Fri, 21 March 2014, 16:18:51
if i can find AcidFire  :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: bearcat on Fri, 21 March 2014, 18:55:36
I'll also be there saturday afternoon -- maybe i'll also be able to buy him a beer!  :thumb:
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: blackisthenewblack on Sat, 22 March 2014, 23:57:10
Acidfire has been posting some epic pictures on his facebook lately.  I am so stoked for this.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Pacifist on Sun, 23 March 2014, 00:01:32
Acidfire has been posting some epic pictures on his facebook lately.  I am so stoked for this.

link????
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: bearcat on Sun, 23 March 2014, 01:08:33
I saw him, he's real!  Very friendly too :)

And he's rocking a sweet new logo and name -- something about some big company (moogle?  foogle?) had some other product named Nexus...  Really looking forward to his next update!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Sun, 23 March 2014, 01:25:02
Acidfire has been posting some epic pictures on his facebook lately.  I am so stoked for this.

link????

I'm keen to see the epic pictures as well!

I saw him, he's real!  Very friendly too :)

And he's rocking a sweet new logo and name -- something about some big company (moogle?  foogle?) had some other product named Nexus...  Really looking forward to his next update!

Did you take any pics?

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: wasabah on Sun, 23 March 2014, 04:27:14
Acidfire has been posting some epic pictures on his facebook lately.  I am so stoked for this.

Can you link the profile?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: oystein.krog on Sun, 23 March 2014, 14:29:27
On http://makerfaireseattle.com/tag/openbeam/ (http://makerfaireseattle.com/tag/openbeam/) I found:

Quote
The Axios is an Open Source ergonomic keyboard featuring modular components and a design to better match the hand’s natural resting position reducing strain in both the wrists and fingers. The Axios is user programmable as well, allowing a near infinite number of layouts to be stored on the board itself and requiring no special drivers. It’s modular nature allows for a wide degree of adjustability and customization giving the user more control over their comfort and laser etched backlit keys let the user make it their own.

Excited to hear more :)

I also found https://www.facebook.com/multiplxd (https://www.facebook.com/multiplxd) but there is no info there.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: blackisthenewblack on Mon, 24 March 2014, 01:14:53
I will check and see if he is cool sharing his facebook, but here is one of the pics.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: tups on Mon, 24 March 2014, 02:30:31
Nothing about injection-molded cases yet then.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Mon, 24 March 2014, 08:55:58
Hmm, I though the board with both sides stuck together was going to have all the keys rotated not just the thumb keys
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Neebio on Mon, 24 March 2014, 09:22:14
I will check and see if he is cool sharing his facebook, but here is one of the pics.

That keyboard looks delightfully cheerful, as if it's holding its little keycap fingers over its little keyboard mouth, giggling uncontrollably.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: router.exe on Mon, 24 March 2014, 10:43:51
Hmm, I though the board with both sides stuck together was going to have all the keys rotated not just the thumb keys

there were also these varieties on the table.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: router.exe on Mon, 24 March 2014, 10:45:03
Nothing about injection-molded cases yet then.

nothing in production yet.  i talked him for a bit, and injection molding is the route he's going to take in the near future.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 24 March 2014, 14:52:23
Time for a long overdue update!

Seattle was absolutely amazing, it was awesome to meet those of you who came out! Of the 150 some cards I brought with info to hand out, I left the event with 15, which was way better than I was expecting :D

As BearCat & Router mentioned, the project has a new name. I know I swore up and down that Nexus was where it was staying, but unfortunately it was pointed out to me that Google's TM on Nexus covers not only mobile devices, but peripherals as well and that's one sleeping bear I don't want to poke. So in discussions with a friend of mine about a possible rename she suggested Axiom, which I took to but with research came across the Axiom keyboards from M-Audio. Wanting to work the Open Source into the name the m became an S, and thus the project was rechristened Axios.

(http://axios.io/exports/axios-banner.png)

My setup at the Seattle Mini MakerFaire:
(http://axios.io/exports/events/smmf-2014/booth-setup.jpg)

These were the last of the laser cut prototypes, I'm now hard at work on the 3d printed/injection molded prototypes, with the aim to have fully functional prototypes ready for the Bay Area MakerFaire.

The other major update to the project pertains to the bluetooth/wireless options. Without giving away too much, there is now a possibility of wireless charging.

Project's official webpage:
http://axios.io/ (http://axios.io/)
You can find my page on facebook here:
https://www.facebook.com/multiplxd (https://www.facebook.com/multiplxd)
Twitter:
https://twitter.com/multiplxd (https://twitter.com/multiplxd)
and my personal facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/ac1df1re  (https://www.facebook.com/ac1df1re)(Please mention you're from geekhack in the message)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: QuadGMoto on Mon, 24 March 2014, 15:29:53
It's great to see that it went well!  :thumb:

I do have a question though. You had mentioned moving to TECK style arrow keys, but the bottom row where the arrow keys (or function keys) doesn't seem to be in a plus or inverted-T layout. Is that the final layout? Can I request a plus or inverted-T layout for those keys?

Thanks, and looks good!

Hopefully Axios is enough different from Axiom that it could survive a trademark challenge. I'm no expert in that area, but I think one letter difference may not be enough. What if you went with something like Aksios, or Maxios, or Mechos, or Mekos? (Modular Ergonomic Keyboards Open Source)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 24 March 2014, 15:49:56
It's great to see that it went well!  :thumb:

I do have a question though. You had mentioned moving to TECK style arrow keys, but the bottom row where the arrow keys (or function keys) doesn't seem to be in a plus or inverted-T layout. Is that the final layout? Can I request a plus or inverted-T layout for those keys?

Thanks, and looks good!

Hopefully Axios is enough different from Axiom that it could survive a trademark challenge. I'm no expert in that area, but I think one letter difference may not be enough. What if you went with something like Aksios, or Maxios, or Mechos, or Mekos? (Modular Ergonomic Keyboards Open Source)

To be honest I completely spaced on that concept, but that would actually help with a change I was looking to make with the connector headers for the thumb clusters. I'll have to take a look at the board layout to see what I can do but it's definitely something I want to explore.

As for Axios it's actually a greek word as well as I've come to discover. I've also see IT companies with both Axios & Axiom who seem to be operating without going after each other, so I'm not overly concerned at this point, especially since the M-Audio is a musical board, not meant for PC input.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: metalliqaz on Mon, 24 March 2014, 22:11:12
wow nice spread.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Pacifist on Mon, 24 March 2014, 22:43:33
gimme already :thumb:
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Tue, 25 March 2014, 00:36:02
Nice. I really like the look of the hinged, tented transparent 'Dox.

I've never used a tented board so I'm unsure if I'd like it in reality though.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kittykatmax on Wed, 26 March 2014, 13:58:40
Tented boards allowsyou to hold your hands/wrists in a more neutral position.  I think once you try it, you'll hate flat keyboards.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: EvillePanda on Wed, 26 March 2014, 14:02:17
Hmm, I though the board with both sides stuck together was going to have all the keys rotated not just the thumb keys

there were also these varieties on the table.

Is it weird I want to find a way to put a trackball mouse in between the keys?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Wed, 26 March 2014, 17:10:34
Hmm, I though the board with both sides stuck together was going to have all the keys rotated not just the thumb keys

there were also these varieties on the table.

Is it weird I want to find a way to put a trackball mouse in between the keys?

I'm weird as well then... I think there's a lot of people around who want to add pointing devices to their 'Doxes.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 26 March 2014, 18:00:37
Who said that isn't in the cards? ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: EvillePanda on Wed, 26 March 2014, 18:22:50
Who said that isn't in the cards? ;)

Awesome.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: fisofo on Wed, 26 March 2014, 21:30:51
I can't remember if I've asked this before, and it probably wouldn't be relevant if there is not going to be an aluminum case option, but what do you think of having an ESD circuit to protect the USB? I ask because, well, I've had some trouble with my ergodox in this area  :(
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kittykatmax on Wed, 26 March 2014, 22:27:29
Ok....would it be feasible to buy the DCS keycaps from the Toxic group buy to pimp out my Nexus (sorry, Axios!), and if so, which sets would I need?  Any major cons to trying to do this?  I have two QFR keyboards, so I have cherry mx keyboards to use at least some of the keys in the meantime and I just fricken LOVE the color scheme!

Toxic Group Buy:  http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55644.0

UPDATE: Read through some older posts on the thread.  AcidFire, are you still planning to offer back-lit keycaps?  If that's the case, I'd use those over the Toxic keycaps, and just get a set for my QFR. 
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 27 March 2014, 14:42:13
Ok....would it be feasible to buy the DCS keycaps from the Toxic group buy to pimp out my Nexus (sorry, Axios!), and if so, which sets would I need?  Any major cons to trying to do this?  I have two QFR keyboards, so I have cherry mx keyboards to use at least some of the keys in the meantime and I just fricken LOVE the color scheme!

Toxic Group Buy:  http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55644.0

UPDATE: Read through some older posts on the thread.  AcidFire, are you still planning to offer back-lit keycaps?  If that's the case, I'd use those over the Toxic keycaps, and just get a set for my QFR. 

Yup, thats still the plan.

I'm not sure if I've mentioned it before, but I've been working on something pretty exciting on the keycap side. There is still some evaluation that needs to be done in both software and equipment, but there is a strong possibility that you'll be able to order a custom etched set (using a template file) for a $20 premium. This number may change a bit, but I'm trying to keep it as low as possible. The blanks will come in at roughly $40, meaning I should be able to offer a complete custom set for around $60.

I can't remember if I've asked this before, and it probably wouldn't be relevant if there is not going to be an aluminum case option, but what do you think of having an ESD circuit to protect the USB? I ask because, well, I've had some trouble with my ergodox in this area  :(
I do have plans to do limited runs of aluminum cases, but they'll be a secondary/premium offer as I haven't looked to see how the new designs will need to change to accommodate that.

The plates however, I plan to machine out of aluminum (similar to stuff from Corsair) for all the kits and so ESD is on the block for the next round of electronics protection.



Speaking of keycaps, I'm currently looking at swapping the 2x/1x/1x on the big thumb clusters to 1.5x/1.5x/1x to make the secondary row more functional/easier to strike. The other upshot of this cost, in two parts.
1) I'm now only ordering two key types instead of three, increasing the number of 1.5x and bringing down their cost with higher volume.
2) This move eliminates the need for stabs that while not expensive, still helps to reduce the cost of the unit (and is also one less part to source)

It also means that someone who is moving from the flat design to the tented/angled design have fewer unique keycaps to purchase.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: metalliqaz on Thu, 27 March 2014, 16:39:52
So these are based on Teensy like the ergodox?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: QuadGMoto on Thu, 27 March 2014, 16:48:11
… there is a strong possibility that you'll be able to order a custom etched set (using a template file) …

I've been leaning strongly towards using a modified version of Programmer Dvorak with one of these. So you're saying that I would be able to order keycaps with exactly the right labels to match that custom layout? Awesome!

Are custom fonts (as outlines) and colors possible?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 27 March 2014, 18:17:09
So these are based on Teensy like the ergodox?

No, these are my custom design.

… there is a strong possibility that you'll be able to order a custom etched set (using a template file) …

I've been leaning strongly towards using a modified version of Programmer Dvorak with one of these. So you're saying that I would be able to order keycaps with exactly the right labels to match that custom layout? Awesome!

Are custom fonts (as outlines) and colors possible?

Font yes color no. Atleast not for the lettering/etching. I've got feelers out currently for what I can get ahold of for different color vinyl dyes (paint).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: dsmitify on Fri, 28 March 2014, 01:53:07
Hello AcidFire.

Will this keyboard/firmware support time-based keys: https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/issues/37 ?
The firmware will be open source?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: eviltobz on Fri, 28 March 2014, 05:14:46
Speaking of keycaps, I'm currently looking at swapping the 2x/1x/1x on the big thumb clusters to 1.5x/1.5x/1x to make the secondary row more functional/easier to strike. The other upshot of this cost, in two parts.
1) I'm now only ordering two key types instead of three, increasing the number of 1.5x and bringing down their cost with higher volume.
this sounds like you're just planning a dsa type, everything-is-the-same-profile, kinda key. i got my dox with dsas from the first massdrop run, and i tend to feel that a more profiled set would feel nicer with the otherwise flat board. also, on my kinesis, 1 of the thumb keys on each cluster have a flat top, whilst the other is angled, which i think helps to locate your thumbs to the home position in the same way as homing bumps do. just things to think about in a cost vs value stylee.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 28 March 2014, 15:38:00
Hello AcidFire.

Will this keyboard/firmware support time-based keys: https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/issues/37 ?
The firmware will be open source?
Absolutely the firmware will be open source. While time-based keys aren't currently high on my list of priorities for the firmware, I'm not going to rule them out either once the rest of the major functionality is finished and polished up. For me, it's not just as simple as adding it to the firmware, as the functionality would need to be added to the desktop configuration software as well. That isn't going to stop (nor would I want it to) the intrepid hackers who are planning to mod the source anyways, so I'm sure if I can't get to it right away someone else will.

Speaking of keycaps, I'm currently looking at swapping the 2x/1x/1x on the big thumb clusters to 1.5x/1.5x/1x to make the secondary row more functional/easier to strike. The other upshot of this cost, in two parts.
1) I'm now only ordering two key types instead of three, increasing the number of 1.5x and bringing down their cost with higher volume.
this sounds like you're just planning a dsa type, everything-is-the-same-profile, kinda key. i got my dox with dsas from the first massdrop run, and i tend to feel that a more profiled set would feel nicer with the otherwise flat board. also, on my kinesis, 1 of the thumb keys on each cluster have a flat top, whilst the other is angled, which i think helps to locate your thumbs to the home position in the same way as homing bumps do. just things to think about in a cost vs value stylee.
Right now I'm looking at both DSA & DCS profiles. The DCS may start as all row 3 or 4, simply to keep costs down, however if funding provides I'll definitely go with a fully contoured set.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Sun, 30 March 2014, 17:07:40
Hello AcidFire.

Will this keyboard/firmware support time-based keys: https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/issues/37 ?
The firmware will be open source?
Absolutely the firmware will be open source. While time-based keys aren't currently high on my list of priorities for the firmware, I'm not going to rule them out either once the rest of the major functionality is finished and polished up. For me, it's not just as simple as adding it to the firmware, as the functionality would need to be added to the desktop configuration software as well. That isn't going to stop (nor would I want it to) the intrepid hackers who are planning to mod the source anyways, so I'm sure if I can't get to it right away someone else will.

I bet someone will port Hasu's TMK firmware (which supports this and media keys and lots more besides) to this really soon.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jloomb on Sun, 30 March 2014, 18:20:39
i see MD doing another dox drop........ but i really like where the axios is heading...... with MD dox taking several months to ship, should I wait for axios?? anyone else facing this decision?
I shouldnt worry, prob going to waiting in my keycaps for few months anyway. But want all the things now!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kittykatmax on Sun, 30 March 2014, 18:39:55
i see MD doing another dox drop........ but i really like where the axios is heading...... with MD dox taking several months to ship, should I wait for axios?? anyone else facing this decision?
I shouldnt worry, prob going to waiting in my keycaps for few months anyway. But want all the things now!

I agree waiting is painful (in my case, also literally, thanks to my crummy hands) but it will be worth it, so I'm waiting for the Axios.  The angled thumb cluster alone will make it ergonomically superior to the Ergodox in terms of supporting a more neutral hand (thumb) position.  Unless you have large hands, the thumb clusters on the Ergodox are difficult to comfortably access according to user accounts.  Awkward thumb clusters seem to rather defeat the purpose/benefits of having them.  I originally almost got an ErgoDox when MassDrop was having a buy that included an assembly option, but passed; while it IS a superior design compared to what's currently out there, I have small hands even for a woman, so there's no way it would have worked for me. :(  YMMV, but just my two cents!

P.S.  If you go with the Axios and it's going to be your main board, you also might want to pass on buying keycaps for a bit, since AcidFire is apparently working on something awesome. ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Sun, 30 March 2014, 19:28:24
i see MD doing another dox drop........ but i really like where the axios is heading...... with MD dox taking several months to ship, should I wait for axios?? anyone else facing this decision?
I shouldnt worry, prob going to waiting in my keycaps for few months anyway. But want all the things now!

i see MD doing another dox drop........ but i really like where the axios is heading...... with MD dox taking several months to ship, should I wait for axios?? anyone else facing this decision?
I shouldnt worry, prob going to waiting in my keycaps for few months anyway. But want all the things now!

I agree waiting is painful (in my case, also literally, thanks to my crummy hands) but it will be worth it, so I'm waiting for the Axios.  The angled thumb cluster alone will make it ergonomically superior to the Ergodox in terms of supporting a more neutral hand (thumb) position.  Unless you have large hands, the thumb clusters on the Ergodox are difficult to comfortably access according to user accounts.  Awkward thumb clusters seem to rather defeat the purpose/benefits of having them.  I originally almost got an ErgoDox when MassDrop was having a buy that included an assembly option, but passed; while it IS a superior design compared to what's currently out there, I have small hands even for a woman, so there's no way it would have worked for me. :(  YMMV, but just my two cents!

P.S.  If you go with the Axios and it's going to be your main board, you also might want to pass on buying keycaps for a bit, since AcidFire is apparently working on something awesome. ;)

Kitty definitely nailed it on the head :D there are some really cool things coming for the keycaps (I have a demo booked for next week).

Also, while I've taken the beta sign up down, anyone who would like email updates and first notice when the Crowd Supply campaign is available can sign up at http://axios.io/signup.php (http://axios.io/signup.php). If you've already signed up for the beta you're already included on that list.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: QuadGMoto on Sun, 30 March 2014, 20:21:40
i see MD doing another dox drop........ but i really like where the axios is heading...... with MD dox taking several months to ship, should I wait for axios?? anyone else facing this decision?
I shouldnt worry, prob going to waiting in my keycaps for few months anyway. But want all the things now!

The Ergodox is off the table for me for a bunch of reasons. They're flat (tented is better), the Axios thumb cluster placement is far superior, AcidFire is planning real arrow/page key clusters, and the Ergodox doesn't have real F-keys which I need. (AcidFire mentioned having appropriate case space for them, though I didn't see them in the Maker Fair pictures.)

I was using a Microsoft Natural up until a month ago when I couldn't take it any more. Now I'm using a TECK, which will be able to keep me happy until the Axios is ready.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jloomb on Sun, 30 March 2014, 22:47:08
yeah Im going to wait. i want tented. but preferably diy asap ha. all ready signed onto the list. my keys already on order. but im happy with that choice.

edit: props on the awesome work AcidFire, keep it up!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: sordna on Mon, 31 March 2014, 01:41:30
Any fully split keyboard can be tented.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: xman on Mon, 31 March 2014, 01:57:20
i see MD doing another dox drop........ but i really like where the axios is heading...... with MD dox taking several months to ship, should I wait for axios?? anyone else facing this decision?
I shouldnt worry, prob going to waiting in my keycaps for few months anyway. But want all the things now!

The Ergodox is off the table for me for a bunch of reasons. They're flat (tented is better), the Axios thumb cluster placement is far superior, AcidFire is planning real arrow/page key clusters, and the Ergodox doesn't have real F-keys which I need. (AcidFire mentioned having appropriate case space for them, though I didn't see them in the Maker Fair pictures.)

I was using a Microsoft Natural up until a month ago when I couldn't take it any more. Now I'm using a TECK, which will be able to keep me happy until the Axios is ready.

Yeah, real F-keys, I need them also.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: tups on Mon, 31 March 2014, 03:08:38
F-keys on the ErgoDox work fine: make what would be the number keys f-keys (in two blocks of six). Use a modifier key to turn the right half into a numpad for the numbers. Not saying the Axios won't be better though. Didn't like the TECK personally: too few thumb keys and the halves not angled enough.

Speaking of keycaps, I'm currently looking at swapping the 2x/1x/1x on the big thumb clusters to 1.5x/1.5x/1x to make the secondary row more functional/easier to strike. The other upshot of this cost, in two parts.
1) I'm now only ordering two key types instead of three, increasing the number of 1.5x and bringing down their cost with higher volume.
2) This move eliminates the need for stabs that while not expensive, still helps to reduce the cost of the unit (and is also one less part to source)
I never understood the point of multiple rows for the thumb clusters. On the ErgoDox I can reach the two big 2x1 keys fine and the two 1x1 side keys okay (mapped as up/down and pg up/down), but I just can't reach the top 1x1 keys. I'm happy with that, but maybe your design is better?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 31 March 2014, 06:50:36
I never understood the point of multiple rows for the thumb clusters. On the ErgoDox I can reach the two big 2x1 keys fine and the two 1x1 side keys okay (mapped as up/down and pg up/down), but I just can't reach the top 1x1 keys. I'm happy with that, but maybe your design is better?
I think this came about via designing on paper and paying attention to mechanical constraints and past precedent but not ever actually trying the design out on real three-dimensional moving hands, or at least not doing nearly enough of that. This seems to be a common problem with keyboard designs from the mid 19th century to the present, so the Ergodox is hardly unique here; frankly this is also a problem with the designs I’ve seen AcidFire make in this thread.

A few people have tried to make more radical improvements. The Japanese had the Tron project and the M-system in the 80s. The Maltron keyboard is pretty fantastic for being from the 1970s. The Apple Adjustable keyboard, followed by the IBM M15, and the Cherry G80-5000, etc. were fairly solid attempts to make ergonomic boards which were easy to use, not intimidating for non-experts, and which didn’t require too much training. The μTRON keyboard is great: if only it weren’t absurdly expensive and designed for tiny Japanese hands.

For programmability, and as a community project, the Ergodox project is a great success. As an ergonomic design, I find it uninspiring. (And this Nexus/Axios/whatever looks to be fairly similar on both fronts.)

Before anyone designs a new keyboard layout, with ergonomics as a goal, they should start by doing their homework: actually studying past designs, learning about human hand anatomy, reading the ergonomics literature, talking to professional scholars in the field, and making dozens of prototypes and then testing them on people with various hand shapes. Unfortunately, doing this work is hard, so basically no one does it.

* * *

Edit: I’m not just trying to be a ****. I think there’s a lot of great ideas here: modularity, open hackable ARM firmware, a few of the specific design elements, several of the hardware decisions, current goals w/r/t pricing (I bet this is harder than it initially seems though), etc.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: eviltobz on Mon, 31 March 2014, 08:48:48
on the ergonomics front though, as you hinted at, everyone is different, so you probably can't reasonably make one board that's perfect for everyone from the biggest person with giant hands down to little kids and everyone inbetween, so designers need to pick some target audience which, more likely than not (and doubly so for a non-commercial enterprise), will centre on their requirements. that's before even considering stuff like standard keycap sizes as a limiting factor for any reasonably priced project (big shout out to olddatahands and his datahand project here).

i suppose i have fairly large hands, so in the case of the ergodox i find it odd to hear people complain about the stretch to the first thumb key being a bit too far. on both my dox & kinesis i home my thumbs on the second thumb key quite comfortably - it just seemed like the obvious place for my thumbs to go so i have other keys to either side, rather than a big stretch over a key. i do like the extra curveyness of the kinesis over the dox, but not so much that it's a problem - both are still infinitely better than a plain old plank keyboard and the axios' thumbcluster angle may help on this front too. (and of course i love the programmability of the dox over the kinesis.) point being - it works well for me :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: QuadGMoto on Mon, 31 March 2014, 09:55:55
F-keys on the ErgoDox work fine: make what would be the number keys f-keys (in two blocks of six). Use a modifier key to turn the right half into a numpad for the numbers.

It's that whole fn+ to do a function key that's a problem. It can be fine by itself, though not quite as good as simply tapping one when you need it, but when you start layering on modifiers it get out of hand really darn quick. Part of the whole point of them is quick single key hits instead of complicated combinations.

Didn't like the TECK personally: too few thumb keys and the halves not angled enough.

Yeah, I agree with those complaints. It's a compromise to give me the lighter mechanical switches with at least some ergonomics to carry me to the completion of the Axios. And it has real F-keys. ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Glod on Mon, 31 March 2014, 09:59:46
F-keys on the ErgoDox work fine: make what would be the number keys f-keys (in two blocks of six). Use a modifier key to turn the right half into a numpad for the numbers.

It's that whole fn+ to do a function key that's a problem. It can be fine by itself, though not quite as good as simply tapping one when you need it, but when you start layering on modifiers it get out of hand really darn quick. Part of the whole point of them is quick single key hits instead of complicated combinations.

not wanting to derail this thread but you CAN have dedicated F keys on the ergodox see this layout i use
see http://almightyglod.com/public_stack/Glod_ErgoDox_Layout_March_2014.png
i also wanted to have f keys instead of FN+#, plus it makes the layout keycap friendly

not saying there are not things wrong with the ergodox, i have been interested in this project since the beginning, just the last two arguments about the tenting and f keys on the ergodox is false, you can tent the ergodox and have dedicated f keys.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 31 March 2014, 12:28:32
I never understood the point of multiple rows for the thumb clusters. On the ErgoDox I can reach the two big 2x1 keys fine and the two 1x1 side keys okay (mapped as up/down and pg up/down), but I just can't reach the top 1x1 keys. I'm happy with that, but maybe your design is better?
I think this came about via designing on paper and paying attention to mechanical constraints and past precedent but not ever actually trying the design out on real three-dimensional moving hands, or at least not doing nearly enough of that. This seems to be a common problem with keyboard designs from the mid 19th century to the present, so the Ergodox is hardly unique here; frankly this is also a problem with the designs I’ve seen AcidFire make in this thread.

A few people have tried to make more radical improvements. The Japanese had the Tron project and the M-system in the 80s. The Maltron keyboard is pretty fantastic for being from the 1970s. The Apple Adjustable keyboard, followed by the IBM M15, and the Cherry G80-5000, etc. were fairly solid attempts to make ergonomic boards which were easy to use, not intimidating for non-experts, and which didn’t require too much training. The μTRON keyboard is great: if only it weren’t absurdly expensive and designed for tiny Japanese hands.

For programmability, and as a community project, the Ergodox project is a great success. As an ergonomic design, I find it uninspiring. (And this Nexus/Axios/whatever looks to be fairly similar on both fronts.)

Before anyone designs a new keyboard layout, with ergonomics as a goal, they should start by doing their homework: actually studying past designs, learning about human hand anatomy, reading the ergonomics literature, talking to professional scholars in the field, and making dozens of prototypes and then testing them on people with various hand shapes. Unfortunately, doing this work is hard, so basically no one does it.

* * *

Edit: I’m not just trying to be a ****. I think there’s a lot of great ideas here: modularity, open hackable ARM firmware, a few of the specific design elements, several of the hardware decisions, current goals w/r/t pricing (I bet this is harder than it initially seems though), etc.

I'm hoping that this doesn't come across as overly defensive given that this is my project but I'll preface this with a preemptive apology just in case; I'm sorry if this comes across as ****ish myself.

I have to admit that some of these comments bothered me quite a bit, considering I have put a substantial amount of time into trying to strike a balance between ergonomics & cost. The first boards I designed were done specifically for my hands, and when a couple of the girls here as well as my own fiancee expressed concerns (and rightly so) about sizing & comfort I ended up completely retooling the boards. I went through atleast a dozen prototypes (most of which I didn't bother to share because well, they were just minor tweaks) trying to find the right balance for small & large hands and ended up with several boxes of acrylic in my office that look like this:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/box-o-testing.jpg)

And this was before I had even begun to look seriously at the electronics. Eventually I decided that the thumb cluster wasn't quite right for a couple of reasons;
1) Your thumb curls inward, not down. It would be pointless to do all the work adjusting for the fingers if the thumb wasn't moving in the optimum motion either, hence the dropped angle not only putting it at a natural resting position but also allowing it to curl in.
2) Adjustability, both for hand size and positioning. This has allowed someone with tiny hands to rest as naturally on the board as my own sizable mitts.

This even breaks down in the heights of the staggered columns. On both the ergodox, the little and index columns didn't sit at enough of a height difference I found, and it took a bit of tweaking to find a height that was more comfortable not only to me, but others as well. Another major difference I haven't shared yet (mostly because I'm still sculpting) is a proper contoured rest designed to better support the hands. Unfortunately this is one of the few parts that can only have so much adjustment and would need to be swapped out for different hand sizes, but it is definitely something I'm working towards.

I'll be the first one to admit that a flat shape isn't the end-all-be-all of ergonomics, something closer to the kinesis/maltron is more the ideal shape however there are a few problems with them (not ergonomically):
1) They're intimidating as hell. Even though they're following the same basic layout as mine & the ergodox, the size and shape of them make them far more scary looking to the uninitiated than they ought to be.
2) Compared to a flat design, they're expensive to produce. You either have to curve the pcb (kinesis) or wire from switch to switch (maltron), neither of which is cheap to do in volume. They also require custom keycaps, adding to the expense.

That first point is extremely important as I discovered last weekend in discussions with the general public. Even my own boards can look intimidating until you show someone that the layout is actually the same as a standard keyboard (atleast in terms of where keys sit), but positioned in a more natural resting state.

As I mentioned, I've been working towards something that balances ergonomics & cost. It's possible its just the Canadian socialist in me, but I'm tired of anything regarding my health being expensive. I'd be very much interested to hear what it is that stands out for you on the design that seems like it needs to be tweaked or is uninspiring.

F-keys on the ErgoDox work fine: make what would be the number keys f-keys (in two blocks of six). Use a modifier key to turn the right half into a numpad for the numbers.

It's that whole fn+ to do a function key that's a problem. It can be fine by itself, though not quite as good as simply tapping one when you need it, but when you start layering on modifiers it get out of hand really darn quick. Part of the whole point of them is quick single key hits instead of complicated combinations.

Didn't like the TECK personally: too few thumb keys and the halves not angled enough.

Yeah, I agree with those complaints. It's a compromise to give me the lighter mechanical switches with at least some ergonomics to carry me to the completion of the Axios. And it has real F-keys. ;)
I want to make sure I'm clear about it, the flat straight/ergo split designs currently don't include space for F keys, only the split tent (I really need proper names for these designs) have the extra space for dedicated keys. Otherwise, there are enough keys in the middle of the flat designs to actually set them as dedicated F keys. If I do a dedicated desktop version (remember these designs were intended more for travel) I will include these F rows as dedicated keys.

F-keys on the ErgoDox work fine: make what would be the number keys f-keys (in two blocks of six). Use a modifier key to turn the right half into a numpad for the numbers.

It's that whole fn+ to do a function key that's a problem. It can be fine by itself, though not quite as good as simply tapping one when you need it, but when you start layering on modifiers it get out of hand really darn quick. Part of the whole point of them is quick single key hits instead of complicated combinations.

not wanting to derail this thread but you CAN have dedicated F keys on the ergodox see this layout i use
see http://almightyglod.com/public_stack/Glod_ErgoDox_Layout_March_2014.png
i also wanted to have f keys instead of FN+#, plus it makes the layout keycap friendly

not saying there are not things wrong with the ergodox, i have been interested in this project since the beginning, just the last two arguments about the tenting and f keys on the ergodox is false, you can tent the ergodox and have dedicated f keys.
Not derailing this thread at all, considering a large number of us are programmers/developers I think it's a very valid concern to address & discuss.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: hoggy on Mon, 31 March 2014, 13:46:31
If you try to please everyone here, you'll end up pleasing no one. The hard part is knowing what well meaning advice to ignore, or at least to give less weight to.

You have your own design in mind, I'd say see that one through, and if enough people demand some changes, then build another model for them.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 31 March 2014, 14:44:48
And this was before I had even begun to look seriously at the electronics. Eventually I decided that the thumb cluster wasn't quite right for a couple of reasons;
1) Your thumb curls inward, not down. It would be pointless to do all the work adjusting for the fingers if the thumb wasn't moving in the optimum motion either, hence the dropped angle not only putting it at a natural resting position but also allowing it to curl in.
Well this is kind of what I mean, and why I say that someone designing a new keyboard should spend some time studying hand anatomy and talking to ergonomics experts. (I’m also not an anatomist or ergonomist or expert: I’ve read some books aimed at laymen and I’ve spent a bunch of time closely inspecting my hand motions, but someone who is e.g. a skilled musical instrument teacher, or a physical therapist, or a professional ergonomics researcher, or a surgeon, etc., will surely have more insight than I do.)

Inre thumb motion: try it! There are 3 joints in the thumb, 2 of which are the main drivers for orienting the thumb relative to a key and pressing it. The distal one of these, the metacarpophalangeal joint, just rotates in one dimension. The proximal one, the carpometacarpal joint, is quite a sophisticated joint, with a bunch of ligagments attached to it, and can move in all kinds of tricky ways, including curling inward [“flexion”/“extension”] (this is aided by the metacarpophalangeal joint usually), and moving up/down [“abduction”/“adduction”], etc. I’m sure this article would be a more useful guide than any summary I can give http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jor.1100100319/abstract (seems to be the most cited one on google scholar) or there are surely some others that aren’t paywalled.

A standard keyboard, as well as the ergodox, kinesis, maltron rely mainly on the main direction of carpometacarpal movement. Of these, I haven’t tried a Maltron, but in making prototypes of my own with plastilina and cardboard, and from just holding loose switches in one hand with the other hand sitting in a neutral position and trying to press them, I believe that the Maltron has the best angle for taking advantage of the natural direction of motion for the strongest type of thumb motion. The Kinesis Advantage is in my opinion is a less effective angle, and the ergodox has a still less effective angle.

Oobly’s DIY keyboard, for example, relies on a different, inward movement of the carpometacarpal, plus an assist from the metacarpophalangeal joint. This is in my experience a less easy/powerful joint movement, but he gets away with it by having all the keys very easy to reach, which more than makes up the difference compared to the poor placement of Ergodox thumb keys.

Figuring out the proper height and direction for the thumb to move though, such that (a) the motion takes as little effort as possible using the biggest muscles and aligning with the movement as closely as possible, and (b) reaching all the keys is easy and natural is a quite non-trivial problem. And figuring out something that will work for very large or very small hands is difficult indeed.

Quote
2) Adjustability, both for hand size and positioning. This has allowed someone with tiny hands to rest as naturally on the board as my own sizable mitts.
Adjustability is great! Ideally every position and angle could be adjusted, as well as keycap sizes, key spacing, etc. Figuring out just what can be reasonably adjusted and which problems that solves for which hands is pretty tricky. Hopefully the adjustment is both easy and sufficient to match a big range of hands.

Quote
On both the ergodox, the little and index columns didn't sit at enough of a height difference I found, and it took a bit of tweaking to find a height that was more comfortable not only to me, but others as well.
Agreed. I find that if the index finger and ring finger keys are level, then the middle finger can use about half a key of stagger, upwards, and the pinky can use at least half a key of stagger, downward. But note, on a standard keyboard, often the best finger to use for a key is not the same as the one advocated by typing teachers / learning materials. As a result, many people have non-standard ways of moving their hands and type keys with other than the recommended fingers. Sometimes people even use different hands to type the 6, Y, or B keys (in QWERTY) depending on which word is being typed. When moving to a matrix or column stagger layout instead, those inconsistencies are going to require a few weeks of getting used to the new layout (maybe sped up by some clever custom character mapping). Even on a column staggered board though, it may not always be ideal to use a separate finger for all the keys in each column (e.g. the pinkies are not going to be easily able to reach up to a number row, so those keys are probably going to be pressed by the ring finger anyway.), which may have some bearing on how much stagger is ideal, depending on how many rows and columns of keys are included.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: EvillePanda on Mon, 31 March 2014, 15:47:04
As someone with tiny hands (the distance from the tip of my middle finger to the bottom of my palm is just under 6 inches), I appreciate you taking hand size into account.  It's very painful to have to reach keys on some layouts, though columnar layouts solve a lot of it.

And as for making everybody happy?  You can please all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you can't please everybody all the time.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Mon, 31 March 2014, 18:25:47
i suppose i have fairly large hands, so in the case of the ergodox i find it odd to hear people complain about the stretch to the first thumb key being a bit too far. on both my dox & kinesis i home my thumbs on the second thumb key quite comfortably - it just seemed like the obvious place for my thumbs to go so i have other keys to either side, rather than a big stretch over a key.

I have average to large hands, and I find that my thumb naturally falls right between the two large thumb keys on the Ergodox.

Figuring out the proper height and direction for the thumb to move though, such that (a) the motion takes as little effort as possible using the biggest muscles and aligning with the movement as closely as possible,

You seem to have given this a lot of thought, but I wonder whether it is always better to use the largest muscles? I would think that it would be the extremities that you would want to use. Like just the end of the thumb. That way you don't need to move anything but the last joint. Surely just moving the last joint is easier than moving the whole thumb.

F-keys on the ErgoDox work fine: make what would be the number keys f-keys (in two blocks of six). Use a modifier key to turn the right half into a numpad for the numbers.

It's that whole fn+ to do a function key that's a problem. It can be fine by itself, though not quite as good as simply tapping one when you need it, but when you start layering on modifiers it get out of hand really darn quick. Part of the whole point of them is quick single key hits instead of complicated combinations.

Didn't like the TECK personally: too few thumb keys and the halves not angled enough.

Yeah, I agree with those complaints. It's a compromise to give me the lighter mechanical switches with at least some ergonomics to carry me to the completion of the Axios. And it has real F-keys. ;)

I'd much rather use a modifier and number keys than have to move my whole hand to get to a function key row. Also I personally find it hard to touchtype function keys when they are so far from the home row. And even worse when they have a different spacing to the rest of the keyboard. I defy anyone to successfully touchtype all the function keys without looking when they are in a layout like the Truly Ergonomic.

Before anyone designs a new keyboard layout, with ergonomics as a goal, they should start by doing their homework: actually studying past designs, learning about human hand anatomy, reading the ergonomics literature, talking to professional scholars in the field, and making dozens of prototypes and then testing them on people with various hand shapes. Unfortunately, doing this work is hard, so basically no one does it.

* * *

Edit: I’m not just trying to be a ****. I think there’s a lot of great ideas here: modularity, open hackable ARM firmware, a few of the specific design elements, several of the hardware decisions, current goals w/r/t pricing (I bet this is harder than it initially seems though), etc.

Also not trying to be a ****, but I would love to see a design from yourself.

I've thought about it a bit, but it's hard to design something that is easily manufacturable and still ergonomic. I think the Ergodox has done a great job but I'd love to see something with the thumbs lowered and tilted.

I don't care too much about price, a great ergonomic keyboard would be worth a lot to me... With the amount of time I spend on the computer, it's worth it.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 31 March 2014, 20:31:00
Getting away from super serious business for a second, been having fun figuring out what I'm doing with the new keys I ordered from SP today:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/layouts/keyset-oj-bk-gy-wh.png)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: linziyi on Tue, 01 April 2014, 11:56:11
Had you by any chance announced the list of beta testers yet?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: tups on Tue, 01 April 2014, 14:55:52
F-keys on the ErgoDox work fine: make what would be the number keys f-keys (in two blocks of six). Use a modifier key to turn the right half into a numpad for the numbers.

It's that whole fn+ to do a function key that's a problem. It can be fine by itself, though not quite as good as simply tapping one when you need it, but when you start layering on modifiers it get out of hand really darn quick. Part of the whole point of them is quick single key hits instead of complicated combinations.

I'd much rather use a modifier and number keys than have to move my whole hand to get to a function key row. Also I personally find it hard to touchtype function keys when they are so far from the home row. And even worse when they have a different spacing to the rest of the keyboard. I defy anyone to successfully touchtype all the function keys without looking when they are in a layout like the Truly Ergonomic.

Apparently most people didn't get my point: setting the primary action of the top row to be F-keys works great on the Dox. I can half-way touch-type these, and also, I can finally touch-type numbers by turning the right side into a num-pad when holding a modifier with the thumb. I would recommend it for programmers and other Axios users wanting F-keys, the only problem is how to get the symbols normally on the number keys (my solution (https://github.com/dhardy/keyboard/blob/master/cyborg16#L50)).

Nice layouts AcidFire. Now someone needs to come up with new standard locations for -, =, `, \ etc. Especially like that it should be easier to touch-type the bottom row than the ErgoDox (having a small gap is a good idea).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: QuadGMoto on Tue, 01 April 2014, 15:35:28
Apparently most people didn't get my point: setting the primary action of the top row to be F-keys works great on the Dox. I can half-way touch-type these, and also, I can finally touch-type numbers by turning the right side into a num-pad when holding a modifier with the thumb. I would recommend it for programmers and other Axios users wanting F-keys, the only problem is how to get the symbols normally on the number keys (my solution (https://github.com/dhardy/keyboard/blob/master/cyborg16#L50)).

I get it. I just don't want to work that way. I don't touch type F-keys. I'm fine with moving my hands from the home row to use them, and I actually prefer it that way. I'm already suffering a bit from shortcut overload and I don't want to add to it.

BTW, when I set up the Axios, I'm planning to use a modified form of Programmer Dvorak, where the symbols are the default and the shift key has to be used for the numbers. Or I'll just use the numeric keypad for more than one or two digits.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Loligagger on Tue, 01 April 2014, 16:50:07
Getting away from super serious business for a second, been having fun figuring out what I'm doing with the new keys I ordered from SP today:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/layouts/keyset-oj-bk-gy-wh.png)


That bottom row on the main cluster looks perfect for arrow keys. Are you planning on having the regular bottom row as an option too? Also will the thumb cluster board still support various layouts as well (like what's shown in the OP)?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: ryanlee0203 on Tue, 01 April 2014, 20:47:07
May I ask prototype array Source Code or Gerber File?

I wanna make that protype myself cuz can't wait the final product :(

Plz sir AcidFire could u provide me a prototype source or gerber? pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeas :((
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Tue, 01 April 2014, 23:46:40
Getting away from super serious business for a second, been having fun figuring out what I'm doing with the new keys I ordered from SP today:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/layouts/keyset-oj-bk-gy-wh.png)


If we just had RGB theirs no need to mess with different colors. We can have them ALL! :)  :0) :) :) :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: obra on Wed, 02 April 2014, 15:58:41
Awesome stuff. A lot of what you're doing and contemplating is similar to what we're doing with our first keyboard.io model, but different enough that I suspect we'll be appealing to slightly different bits of the market.

I'd love to compare notes some time.

-jesse
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 02 April 2014, 16:34:17
Had you by any chance announced the list of beta testers yet?
I haven't yet as I'm currently making some decisions on what I'll be releasing for the beta, which affects the people selected for it. Once I know, you guys will.

Getting away from super serious business for a second, been having fun figuring out what I'm doing with the new keys I ordered from SP today:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/layouts/keyset-oj-bk-gy-wh.png)


If we just had RGB theirs no need to mess with different colors. We can have them ALL! :)  :0) :) :) :)
One can dream :D I do have a design thats semi workable right now that while needing tweaking should work nicely for those switches.

May I ask prototype array Source Code or Gerber File?

I wanna make that protype myself cuz can't wait the final product :(

Plz sir AcidFire could u provide me a prototype source or gerber? pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeas :((
Unfortunately the current design files have some functionality issues and I haven't finished the latest revision :(

Awesome stuff. A lot of what you're doing and contemplating is similar to what we're doing with our first keyboard.io model, but different enough that I suspect we'll be appealing to slightly different bits of the market.

I'd love to compare notes some time.

-jesse
Absolutely. A lot of your earlier hand wired prototypes are what inspired me to look at rolling my own solution rather than stick with the existing designs like the edox. I'll be down in San Mateo for the Bay Area maker faire in may, maybe we can catch up there :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: obra on Wed, 02 April 2014, 16:55:05

Absolutely. A lot of your earlier hand wired prototypes are what inspired me to look at rolling my own solution rather than stick with the existing designs like the edox. I'll be down in San Mateo for the Bay Area maker faire in may, maybe we can catch up there :D

That'd totally work. We're going to be in Shenzhen for the two weeks before maker faire, but I think we get back the Saturday. If you're coming through SF, you'd be welcome to come hang out at Highway1 (The incubator space we're in)

I'll admit to having not been following your stuff in detail. I've been super nose-down for the past couple months. But I'm starting to get a handle on sourcing keyswitches, RGB LEDs, pcbs and am starting to look into interesting enclosures, custom keycaps and bluetooth modules.

One of the things we're playing with is a custom logic board & standardized footprint & header placement optimized for building open keyboards. But this stuff probably belongs in its own thread. :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Wed, 02 April 2014, 17:43:58
One of the things we're playing with is a custom logic board & standardized footprint & header placement optimized for building open keyboards. But this stuff probably belongs in its own thread. :)

That's a great idea, would make it much easier to combine open stuff together. Maybe just a pin header, something like an ICSP header?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kaltar on Wed, 02 April 2014, 17:47:03

As I mentioned, I've been working towards something that balances ergonomics & cost. It's possible its just the Canadian socialist in me, but I'm tired of anything regarding my health being expensive. I'd be very much interested to hear what it is that stands out for you on the design that seems like it needs to be tweaked or is uninspiring.

Well, does your health has a cost? You are designing a comfort. It should be as comfortable as your budget allows it.  Its going to be expensive cause very few people will venture into getting the project (unless you make a massive sale and the prices go as low as possible, for like 1000 units).

I love the ergodox project, however, is not as ergonomic as the Kinesis Advantage. PERIOD. The kinesis is far from perfect, but as you said, the curve on the keypad is just an outstanding feature that really follows ergonomics. I totally agree with you on the thumb buttons, the alternative would be something like this, but with lateral buttons. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/70308014/kings-assembly-a-computer-mouse-full-of-awesome

It's your project and everyone will try to suggest ideas. All the rest, can't wait to get our hands on whatever you end up designing. And we will support the project because it is just looking good, and you show you care about ergonomics.

I personally would pay $500 bucks for a better ergonomic keyboard. My hands and pain are worth it.

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 02 April 2014, 18:58:01

As I mentioned, I've been working towards something that balances ergonomics & cost. It's possible its just the Canadian socialist in me, but I'm tired of anything regarding my health being expensive. I'd be very much interested to hear what it is that stands out for you on the design that seems like it needs to be tweaked or is uninspiring.

Well, does your health has a cost? You are designing a comfort. It should be as comfortable as your budget allows it.  Its going to be expensive cause very few people will venture into getting the project (unless you make a massive sale and the prices go as low as possible, for like 1000 units).

I love the ergodox project, however, is not as ergonomic as the Kinesis Advantage. PERIOD. The kinesis is far from perfect, but as you said, the curve on the keypad is just an outstanding feature that really follows ergonomics. I totally agree with you on the thumb buttons, the alternative would be something like this, but with lateral buttons. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/70308014/kings-assembly-a-computer-mouse-full-of-awesome

It's your project and everyone will try to suggest ideas. All the rest, can't wait to get our hands on whatever you end up designing. And we will support the project because it is just looking good, and you show you care about ergonomics.

I personally would pay $500 bucks for a better ergonomic keyboard. My hands and pain are worth it.

Without giving too much away at this point, the bowled design is not out of the question. However there is much more to get right (and to have to do custom) and a good amount of funding is required for that, hence getting this first stuff out.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: obra on Wed, 02 April 2014, 19:28:17
One of the things we're playing with is a custom logic board & standardized footprint & header placement optimized for building open keyboards. But this stuff probably belongs in its own thread. :)

That's a great idea, would make it much easier to combine open stuff together. Maybe just a pin header, something like an ICSP header?

*nod*
We're still trying to figure out what makes the most sense.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: conandy on Thu, 03 April 2014, 17:43:48
F-keys on the ErgoDox work fine: make what would be the number keys f-keys (in two blocks of six). Use a modifier key to turn the right half into a numpad for the numbers.

It's that whole fn+ to do a function key that's a problem. It can be fine by itself, though not quite as good as simply tapping one when you need it, but when you start layering on modifiers it get out of hand really darn quick. Part of the whole point of them is quick single key hits instead of complicated combinations.

Didn't like the TECK personally: too few thumb keys and the halves not angled enough.

Yeah, I agree with those complaints. It's a compromise to give me the lighter mechanical switches with at least some ergonomics to carry me to the completion of the Axios. And it has real F-keys. ;)

Have to admit as a CAD user and gamer that the F-keys are a must, in my opinion.  The Fn+ to get to the function key layer may be workable with practice, though, at least for CAD use.  I too have gone with a TECK for the time being since I got a great deal used on eBay.  The F-keys are in no-way touch-typeable on the TECK, but at least they are all on the keyboard.  For CAD and for gaming, the idea is to do as much as possible with only the left hand on the keyboard and keeping the right hand on the mouse.   The ergonomic decisions here are definitely different than for you programmers who try to keep both hands on the keyboard most of the time and use the mouse as little as possible.  That is also an ergonomic way of working, it is just a different application. 

Unfortunately, one solution doesn't necessarily fit all.  That is why I would actually be happy if the F-keys were an add-on board, something like the x-keys sticks (http://xkeys.com/xkeys/xk8.php) could actually work in lieu of them built into the keyboard.  Just wish x-keys had a 2-rows x 6 keys option to make the standard 12 F-keys on a normal keyboard all accessible to the left hand.  I'd just stick it to the top of the left hand keyboard and be happy as a clam.  Probably would tilt it up a bit, too.   

The TECK is a compromise at the moment, and I agree with other sentiments on the angle between hands not being enough and the lack of a thumb cluster.  I'm holding out for that Axios!  Had to grit my teeth to let this most recent Ergodox Massdrop pass me by. 
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Thu, 03 April 2014, 18:02:48
Have to admit as a CAD user and gamer that the F-keys are a must, in my opinion.  The Fn+ to get to the function key layer may be workable with practice, though, at least for CAD use.  I too have gone with a TECK for the time being since I got a great deal used on eBay.  The F-keys are in no-way touch-typeable on the TECK, but at least they are all on the keyboard.  For CAD and for gaming, the idea is to do as much as possible with only the left hand on the keyboard and keeping the right hand on the mouse.   The ergonomic decisions here are definitely different than for you programmers who try to keep both hands on the keyboard most of the time and use the mouse as little as possible.  That is also an ergonomic way of working, it is just a different application. 

Have you thought about one of those MMO mice with a million thumb buttons as Fkeys?

[attach=1]
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: conandy on Thu, 03 April 2014, 18:18:09
Have to admit as a CAD user and gamer that the F-keys are a must, in my opinion.  The Fn+ to get to the function key layer may be workable with practice, though, at least for CAD use.  I too have gone with a TECK for the time being since I got a great deal used on eBay.  The F-keys are in no-way touch-typeable on the TECK, but at least they are all on the keyboard.  For CAD and for gaming, the idea is to do as much as possible with only the left hand on the keyboard and keeping the right hand on the mouse.   The ergonomic decisions here are definitely different than for you programmers who try to keep both hands on the keyboard most of the time and use the mouse as little as possible.  That is also an ergonomic way of working, it is just a different application. 

Have you thought about one of those MMO mice with a million thumb buttons as Fkeys?

(Attachment Link)

Have a Logitech G700, which is OK.  Haven't tried the g600 or the other similar ones with lots of buttons.  I think I'd have a hard time using all those thumb buttons.  I have found that the sidemounted thumb buttons tend to make the mouse move when pressed, and that annoys the crap out of me.  Also, my thumb tends to rest behind the center of the buttons (closer to me) and it is hard for me to hit them all  without moving my hand on the mouse.   I do use the 3 top left buttons on the G700 quite a bit, though.  More easily reachable index finger buttons on a mouse would be great.  Have thought about that as a project as well. 
 
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Thu, 03 April 2014, 18:47:37

As I mentioned, I've been working towards something that balances ergonomics & cost. It's possible its just the Canadian socialist in me, but I'm tired of anything regarding my health being expensive. I'd be very much interested to hear what it is that stands out for you on the design that seems like it needs to be tweaked or is uninspiring.

Well, does your health has a cost? You are designing a comfort. It should be as comfortable as your budget allows it.  Its going to be expensive cause very few people will venture into getting the project (unless you make a massive sale and the prices go as low as possible, for like 1000 units).

I love the ergodox project, however, is not as ergonomic as the Kinesis Advantage. PERIOD. The kinesis is far from perfect, but as you said, the curve on the keypad is just an outstanding feature that really follows ergonomics. I totally agree with you on the thumb buttons, the alternative would be something like this, but with lateral buttons. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/70308014/kings-assembly-a-computer-mouse-full-of-awesome

It's your project and everyone will try to suggest ideas. All the rest, can't wait to get our hands on whatever you end up designing. And we will support the project because it is just looking good, and you show you care about ergonomics.

I personally would pay $500 bucks for a better ergonomic keyboard. My hands and pain are worth it.

Without giving too much away at this point, the bowled design is not out of the question. However there is much more to get right (and to have to do custom) and a good amount of funding is required for that, hence getting this first stuff out.

No way! I love the bowl/kenesis design! I had some ideas about how to make a printable design with little single key pcbs so you could make it your own height but it turned a bit crazy because you had to make so many different pieces. It turn out I was going to have to 3d print it to handle them all. Not out of the question but that's where I stopped. Would love to see a bowl design that you can adjust to your hand shape (I mean once not continuos adjustment) I have some other ideas but not any I have the time to implement.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: spspencer on Thu, 03 April 2014, 21:49:39
Hey Acidfire, love your work. I think your modular mindset is the way to go, as you will never be able to please everyone with one board. I don't even think you should try. My personal favorite is the ergodox'ish tented design with the thumb cluster tilted down. 

As I understand it, both the thumb cluster and the main cluster can be removed/interchanged, correct? Comparing router.exe's photo (reply #1119) with your photo (reply #1121), it looks like you took half of the flat keyboard and stuck it into the tented one. If so, that's sweet!

I've been using the Ergodox for awhile now, and I love it, but I'm using it flat. I'd rather have it tented, with the thumb cluster down, much like your design. I think this is as good as it gets for a "mass produced" design.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: ryanlee0203 on Fri, 04 April 2014, 08:01:22
Hey Acidfire, love your work. I think your modular mindset is the way to go, as you will never be able to please everyone with one board. I don't even think you should try. My personal favorite is the ergodox'ish tented design with the thumb cluster tilted down. 

As I understand it, both the thumb cluster and the main cluster can be removed/interchanged, correct? Comparing router.exe's photo (reply #1119) with your photo (reply #1121), it looks like you took half of the flat keyboard and stuck it into the tented one. If so, that's sweet!

I've been using the Ergodox for awhile now, and I love it, but I'm using it flat. I'd rather have it tented, with the thumb cluster down, much like your design. I think this is as good as it gets for a "mass produced" design.

Here's an assenter for him.

totally agree with his idea. no need to satisfact whole people, but it need to be more evolved.

more function keys with tilting thumb cluster keyboard? how much it is? I'll buy 3 of 'em give me that.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: eviltobz on Fri, 04 April 2014, 08:52:45
acidfire, have you thought about getting a simple screen on there instead of just some old school leds?

the typical plank has caps-lock (marginally useful), num-lock (does anyone ever want this turned off) and scroll lock (so arcane that i dunno why they even bothered to include it in the usb keyboard spec). With my dox i currently have 3 main layers to switch between as a base (colemak osx, colemak windows, and stupid mode (qwerty windows)) then I have momentary layer for numpad/f-keys/media-keys and another for coding-symbols/handy-vim-cursor-when-in-colemak and a cunning multipress momentary layer for admin mode to change the base layer or reprogram the teensy.  even with hacking the source code to use the leds for sommat more useful they're still woefully inadequate - having it flashing morse code to tell me the different active layers just aint good enough ;)

last saturday was international arduino day, and at my local hackspace i got a bunch of bits and some workshop tutorial action. getting a bit more advanced than what i did there, it seems that a shift register will let you control at least a 16x2 character lcd with just 3 pins. and the dox has 3 pins dedicated to its leds. dunno what your circuits are looking like, but that seems like fate to me ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 04 April 2014, 12:53:42
Hey Acidfire, love your work. I think your modular mindset is the way to go, as you will never be able to please everyone with one board. I don't even think you should try. My personal favorite is the ergodox'ish tented design with the thumb cluster tilted down. 

As I understand it, both the thumb cluster and the main cluster can be removed/interchanged, correct? Comparing router.exe's photo (reply #1119) with your photo (reply #1121), it looks like you took half of the flat keyboard and stuck it into the tented one. If so, that's sweet!

I've been using the Ergodox for awhile now, and I love it, but I'm using it flat. I'd rather have it tented, with the thumb cluster down, much like your design. I think this is as good as it gets for a "mass produced" design.

Here's an assenter for him.

totally agree with his idea. no need to satisfact whole people, but it need to be more evolved.

more function keys with tilting thumb cluster keyboard? how much it is? I'll buy 3 of 'em give me that.

Yup, that was the main reasoning behind the modularity, the other being the cost savings of not having 3-4 different custom large PCBs. By going with smaller designs I can produce in larger numbers to offer more designs, I get them cheaper, which lets me keep prices lower on what I'm offering. It also means that if you buy a travel size board, and decide you want a split tented version, you'll only need to buy the case+thumb clusters instead of needing to buy a whole new set.

acidfire, have you thought about getting a simple screen on there instead of just some old school leds?

the typical plank has caps-lock (marginally useful), num-lock (does anyone ever want this turned off) and scroll lock (so arcane that i dunno why they even bothered to include it in the usb keyboard spec). With my dox i currently have 3 main layers to switch between as a base (colemak osx, colemak windows, and stupid mode (qwerty windows)) then I have momentary layer for numpad/f-keys/media-keys and another for coding-symbols/handy-vim-cursor-when-in-colemak and a cunning multipress momentary layer for admin mode to change the base layer or reprogram the teensy.  even with hacking the source code to use the leds for sommat more useful they're still woefully inadequate - having it flashing morse code to tell me the different active layers just aint good enough ;)

last saturday was international arduino day, and at my local hackspace i got a bunch of bits and some workshop tutorial action. getting a bit more advanced than what i did there, it seems that a shift register will let you control at least a 16x2 character lcd with just 3 pins. and the dox has 3 pins dedicated to its leds. dunno what your circuits are looking like, but that seems like fate to me ;)

there is a... disturbing number of LCDs in a box on my bench. As I mentioned previously, I'm looking at the LCD/OLED/e-ink display option though it definitely won't be priority to start. And with the high speed i2c bus on board, I only need 2 wires. not 3 ;) The other side of it of course is figuring out how best to integrate it into the boards as an addon.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: router.exe on Fri, 04 April 2014, 13:30:41
Getting away from super serious business for a second, been having fun figuring out what I'm doing with the new keys I ordered from SP today:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/layouts/keyset-oj-bk-gy-wh.png)


after our talk at maker faire, this definitely helps me see how i could further reduce hand pain and get me to switch away from a TECK.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: eviltobz on Sat, 05 April 2014, 14:19:06
...screens n stuff...
...e-ink display option...
ooooooooh :) that sound extra cool. my limited delve into such things hasn't taken me into e-ink land, so i didn't even think of that as an option.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 10 April 2014, 11:42:04
Just thought I'd pop on for a bit of an update.

I'm currently working with Crowd Supply to dial in the budget for the crowd funding campaign. There's an end goal to where we'd like to see the budget launch at and right now I'm tuning the numbers in to get there. What does that mean going forward?

1) The Split/Straight travel designs will not be part of the base funding goal, however they will be the first stretch goals. What those goals will be will come down to the mold quotes I get back.

2) As much as I'd love to, the minimums for Greens, Reds & Browns would tack on up to $65K to the base funding goal. I'll be watching the total for switches as the campaign is being funded, and the second I hit the numbers I need I'll be adding them. This includes the bags of switches I was originally hoping to offer as a pledge level, as well as a few other pledges I'm keeping close to my chest for now.

There is, however some good news as part of this:

3) To compensate for the (initial) lack of travel cases, I'm currently working into the split design the ability to use either the arm which allows for adjustability & depth for desktop use, or a flat plate that makes it more travel friendly. Both will be included in the box so that you don't have to choose.

4) I'm currently reviewing the costs, but I'm looking to mold the cases & rests out of PBT instead of ABS. No shine!

As for a timeline, I'm currently targeting to launch the Crowd Supply campaign on May 16th (unless something comes up before then).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Thu, 10 April 2014, 12:56:19

2) As much as I'd love to, the minimums for Greens, Reds & Browns would tack on up to $65K to the base funding goal. I'll be watching the total for switches as the campaign is being funded, and the second I hit the numbers I need I'll be adding them. This includes the bags of switches I was originally hoping to offer as a pledge level, as well as a few other pledges I'm keeping close to my chest for now.

SO I'm confused as to which switches you will be using, or are you saying you won't be providing ANY switches until you hit the amount needed for them? Or are you saying that there is something different about the minimums for greens, reds and browns than other choices like blue, blacks, clears, etc and you will be offering the later switches?

As for a timeline, I'm currently targeting to launch the Crowd Supply campaign on May 16th (unless something comes up before then).

Is the beta going to happen before this time?

Thanks for the update!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 10 April 2014, 13:44:38

2) As much as I'd love to, the minimums for Greens, Reds & Browns would tack on up to $65K to the base funding goal. I'll be watching the total for switches as the campaign is being funded, and the second I hit the numbers I need I'll be adding them. This includes the bags of switches I was originally hoping to offer as a pledge level, as well as a few other pledges I'm keeping close to my chest for now.

SO I'm confused as to which switches you will be using, or are you saying you won't be providing ANY switches until you hit the amount needed for them? Or are you saying that there is something different about the minimums for greens, reds and browns than other choices like blue, blacks, clears, etc and you will be offering the later switches?

As for a timeline, I'm currently targeting to launch the Crowd Supply campaign on May 16th (unless something comes up before then).

Is the beta going to happen before this time?

Thanks for the update!

Basically, what that means is that I'll be offering the boards with blues, clears & blacks to start. When I have enough funding that I could add browns, reds and greens to the line up you better believe I will.

The plan right now is still to run the beta first before sending out the production units. That means you'll get the prototype injection molded cases for testing, and based on beta feedback they'll either be released for a full production run or tweaked, retested and then released for full production.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: wasabah on Thu, 10 April 2014, 15:00:41
As for a timeline, I'm currently targeting to launch the Crowd Supply campaign on May 16th (unless something comes up before then).
Would be an awesome birthday present! ;)

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Thu, 10 April 2014, 20:18:15

2) As much as I'd love to, the minimums for Greens, Reds & Browns would tack on up to $65K to the base funding goal. I'll be watching the total for switches as the campaign is being funded, and the second I hit the numbers I need I'll be adding them. This includes the bags of switches I was originally hoping to offer as a pledge level, as well as a few other pledges I'm keeping close to my chest for now.

SO I'm confused as to which switches you will be using, or are you saying you won't be providing ANY switches until you hit the amount needed for them? Or are you saying that there is something different about the minimums for greens, reds and browns than other choices like blue, blacks, clears, etc and you will be offering the later switches?

As for a timeline, I'm currently targeting to launch the Crowd Supply campaign on May 16th (unless something comes up before then).

Is the beta going to happen before this time?

Thanks for the update!

Basically, what that means is that I'll be offering the boards with blues, clears & blacks to start. When I have enough funding that I could add browns, reds and greens to the line up you better believe I will.

The plan right now is still to run the beta first before sending out the production units. That means you'll get the prototype injection molded cases for testing, and based on beta feedback they'll either be released for a full production run or tweaked, retested and then released for full production.

Thanks that sounds like a good way to do the beta testing I'm so glad your taking your time not just planning on rushing things out (As Much as I would like you too :).

I like blues and browns personally but I am amazed that the browns aren't a smaller buy in. Clearly looking at most large manufacture keyboards they must be shipping a crap ton of both blues and browns. Cherry probably has piles of browns like Scrooge McDuck's money tower. They wouldn't even notice if you dived in and swiped some. :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 10 April 2014, 21:55:15
I like blues and browns personally but I am amazed that the browns aren't a smaller buy in. Clearly looking at most large manufacture keyboards they must be shipping a crap ton of both blues and browns. Cherry probably has piles of browns like Scrooge McDuck's money tower. They wouldn't even notice if you dived in and swiped some. :)
I think Cherry actually has trouble keeping up with demand, and e.g. Razer switching to Kaihua MX clones is partly caused just by difficulty sourcing Cherry MX switches. If you talk to, e.g., the MassDrop people, sourcing switches for Ergodox buys &c. is a real pain in the butt (and causes delays).

My guess is that Kaihua and other Chinese MX clones are going to take a bigger chunk of the market in the next few years, since they can offer switches at much cheaper prices, and OEMs won’t have the same supply and distribution problems they currently have with MX. The switches are close enough in feeling to Cherry MX that being half the cost and easy to source will make up for the lack of Cherry branding.

Personally though, I’m hoping that more OEMs start using Matias switches, which I like better than MX.

Or it would also be great if someone tried to clone other types of old switches (or, wow, here’s an idea, even invent some new ones). It’s kind of a bummer that the switches and keyboard build-quality of the 60s–70s were better in almost every way than the keyboards of the 80s–90s, and those were better than almost everything being made today. Cherry MX is a 30 year old design, which could be improved in at least some of: actuation distance, tactile feeling, stability, smoothness, sound, overall switch size, ... but currently we’re mostly stuck with them, because no one has put much research or development effort into keyswitches since the 80s.

(To be fair, the cause of this was relentless cost-cutting of all computer components, which has resulted in lots of people being able to afford computers, and that’s great!)

AcidFire: good luck sourcing switches!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: sordna on Thu, 10 April 2014, 22:18:01
Hasn't Matias done switch development recently? Like the Quiet Click switches in their Laptop Pro mechanical keyboard (which are an evolution of ALPS of course).

http://matias.ca/switches/quiet/
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 10 April 2014, 23:00:56
Hasn't Matias done switch development recently? Like the Quiet Click switches in their Laptop Pro mechanical keyboard (which are an evolution of ALPS of course).

http://matias.ca/switches/quiet/
Sure, Matias has done some tweaking of the Alps design (their quiet-click switches are sort of a combination of the simplified Alps switches (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_SKBM_White) made by Alps and then Fuhua which Matias was using in their original Tactile Pro keyboards, and the dampened Alps switches (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_SKCM_Cream_Damped) that used to ship in SGI and Apple keyboards 20 years ago), and they’ve done an impressive job working with their manufacturing partners on setting up the tooling and supply chain, tweaking the tactile leaves and springs and plastic pieces so they’re reliable and effective, and getting switches produced with good QC, etc.

And for the record I think Matias switches are awesome, and I would definitely recommend them.

But that’s not really a new switch design, where by “new” I mean something that might get a patent. (Though using a clear housing so that arbitrary LEDs can shine through the bottom is nice, for those folks who like LEDs. Cherry has now copied this idea, and I’m guessing the Cherry clones aren’t too far behind.)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: linziyi on Thu, 10 April 2014, 23:43:36
2) As much as I'd love to, the minimums for Greens, Reds & Browns would tack on up to $65K to the base funding goal. I'll be watching the total for switches as the campaign is being funded, and the second I hit the numbers I need I'll be adding them. This includes the bags of switches I was originally hoping to offer as a pledge level, as well as a few other pledges I'm keeping close to my chest for now.

So... No grey switches (the tactile one that is) considered?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: sm31 on Fri, 11 April 2014, 07:23:17
So then given the hassles with Cherry MX, is it feasible to consider Matias instead AcidFire?

Just asking.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: QuadGMoto on Fri, 11 April 2014, 09:33:19
So then given the hassles with Cherry MX, is it feasible to consider Matias instead AcidFire?

Just asking.


Obviously AcidFire will probably have his own opinion, but here's my take.


The ALPS switches have a different pin configuration than the MX switches. That means a different circuit board would be needed. Supposedly, the pins are close enough to a mirror image that the board could simply be turned over, but I have my doubts about how well that would work.


IMHO, I think AcidFire should have an option for ALPS/Matias switches… in version 2. I think it's better to get a version shipping with just MX switches first, and add options such as ALPS compatible switches later rather than delaying things any further.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: sm31 on Fri, 11 April 2014, 10:47:50
Makes sense; I hadn't thought about potential incompatibility.

So then given the hassles with Cherry MX, is it feasible to consider Matias instead AcidFire?

Just asking.


Obviously AcidFire will probably have his own opinion, but here's my take.


The ALPS switches have a different pin configuration than the MX switches. That means a different circuit board would be needed. Supposedly, the pins are close enough to a mirror image that the board could simply be turned over, but I have my doubts about how well that would work.


IMHO, I think AcidFire should have an option for ALPS/Matias switches… in version 2. I think it's better to get a version shipping with just MX switches first, and add options such as ALPS compatible switches later rather than delaying things any further.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kittykatmax on Fri, 11 April 2014, 13:32:39
I must confess, I'm personally surprised and disappointed that the first available switches are all the higher actuation ones, given the fact that this is supposed to be an ergonomic keyboard.  Cherry MX Browns are  popular because of the low actuation force required (helpful if your hand function is impaired, as mine is), there's that nice tactile bump that's useful for touch typing to avoid bottoming out (which can be fatiguing), plus they are quiet enough to be used in office/shared computing environments.  This is why they are the most popularly used (Cherry) switch by manufacturers of ergonomic keyboards. Cherry MX blues are the lowest actuating switches you're offering, and they are among the worst (if not the worst) to try to use in a shared office environment (be that at work or home). 

Browns are also just a good all around option for people who want something that's pleasant for both gaming and typing.  Yes, I know, that aspect is considered by many to be strictly user preference, but it IS the general consensus when you read guides on Cherry MX switches, and in my own experiences, it has certainly proven to be the case.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: EvillePanda on Fri, 11 April 2014, 14:20:10
He did say it would be a stretch goal.  And it's not his fault.  He has to consider costs in order to get the project off the ground.  The lower actuation switches are more expensive.  It's unfortunate, but it happens.  I'm sure I don't have to say this, but if we want access to those lower actuation switches (or the other form factors for that matter), we should look at broadcasting AcidFire's project as loud and as far as we can to make sure he gets the funding he needs.  Let's look at this positively.  He's very close to starting his crowd funding.  As a community, let's focus on what we can do to make it successful, whether it be participating financially or getting the word out to people who can.  I'm excited for the board, even if the selection will be limited at the onset.  It won't be that way forever.  As long as he gets the support he'll need.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: spspencer on Fri, 11 April 2014, 18:19:13
I must confess, I'm personally surprised and disappointed that the first available switches are all the higher actuation ones, given the fact that this is supposed to be an ergonomic keyboard.  Cherry MX Browns are  popular because of the low actuation force required (helpful if your hand function is impaired, as mine is), there's that nice tactile bump that's useful for touch typing to avoid bottoming out (which can be fatiguing), plus they are quiet enough to be used in office/shared computing environments.  This is why they are the most popularly used (Cherry) switch by manufacturers of ergonomic keyboards. Cherry MX blues are the lowest actuating switches you're offering, and they are among the worst (if not the worst) to try to use in a shared office environment (be that at work or home). 

Browns are also just a good all around option for people who want something that's pleasant for both gaming and typing.  Yes, I know, that aspect is considered by many to be strictly user preference, but it IS the general consensus when you read guides on Cherry MX switches, and in my own experiences, it has certainly proven to be the case.

The great thing about cherry mx switches is they are available in different styles to suit everyone. The horrible thing about them is they can be difficult to source, or a manufacturer will settle on only offering one. I am a blue fan, so I'm happy. Given a choice, I would probably get greens because I haven't tried them yet.

I am the exact opposite of you as far as key choice. I detest browns; they feel "dirty" to me, like a defective mechanical component. I also love the blue sound. I'm in the older crowd, so I'm used to the sound--I'll even run programs that give me a "fake" click sound when typing on my MacBook's keyboard. I also like the blues because I'll tap my fingers lightly on the keyboard while thinking (another reason to look at greens). Lighter activation wouldn't work for me.

Having said all that, I love this project and want to see it succeed. If not having browns is a no-go for you I would be willing to solder browns for you free of charge (you provide board and switches.)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: QuadGMoto on Fri, 11 April 2014, 19:01:27
I'm personally thrilled that clears are on the initial list, in spite of the fact that I find them to be too heavy. That's because the switch I really want is the clear with a blue spring or equivalent. (I already have those.) That's, IMHO, a tactilly better switch than the browns.


If you think of it, that's an excellent starting set of switches, accounting for each basic type, tactile clicky, tactile quiet, and linear. If necessary, the springs on all 3 can be swapped out for something else.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kittykatmax on Fri, 11 April 2014, 22:53:42

I am the exact opposite of you as far as key choice. I detest browns; they feel "dirty" to me, like a defective mechanical component. I also love the blue sound. I'm in the older crowd, so I'm used to the sound--I'll even run programs that give me a "fake" click sound when typing on my MacBook's keyboard. I also like the blues because I'll tap my fingers lightly on the keyboard while thinking (another reason to look at greens). Lighter activation wouldn't work for me.

Having said all that, I love this project and want to see it succeed. If not having browns is a no-go for you I would be willing to solder browns for you free of charge (you provide board and switches.)

I don't dislike blues at all, I simply suffer from arthritis, thumbs that dislocate, and nerve damage.   I originally bought a QFR with blues, but after a few months I switched to a QFS with browns.  It's simply less fatiguing for me to type on, feels better when gaming (I play WoW), and it's less disruptive given I share a small home office with my husband.   I've thought of trying reds, but I like having a tactile bump, plus my fingers can be twitchy and I'd likely make accidental keystrokes.  Perhaps it's because I have smaller hands than the average woman, but I also sometimes tap my fingers on the keys, and never make accidental key presses on the browns.

I'm actually in the "older crowd" too. :)  When I started working in IT, it was supporting Apple IIe and IBM PS/2 computers - I always loved those IBM keyboards!  My hands are probably such a mess because I've used computer keyboards heavily since the 80s, plus I used to love to draw, embroider/cross stitch, knit and make jewelry.  I reluctantly gave up my other hobbies, but they'll pry my computer keyboard from my cold dead hands!

Thank you for your extremely kind and generous offer (so many amazing people in the GH community), but I'd hate to impose like that; I'm much better at giving than receiving.  Depending upon how expensive the board winds up being (and it will be worth every penny!), I'll probably either buy it with blues first and get a second one with browns later on if possible (I also want to see this project and our wonderful AcidFire succeed!), or wait to see if browns become available. 
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kittykatmax on Sat, 12 April 2014, 02:57:25
He did say it would be a stretch goal.  And it's not his fault.  He has to consider costs in order to get the project off the ground.  The lower actuation switches are more expensive.  It's unfortunate, but it happens.  I'm sure I don't have to say this, but if we want access to those lower actuation switches (or the other form factors for that matter), we should look at broadcasting AcidFire's project as loud and as far as we can to make sure he gets the funding he needs.  Let's look at this positively.  He's very close to starting his crowd funding.  As a community, let's focus on what we can do to make it successful, whether it be participating financially or getting the word out to people who can.  I'm excited for the board, even if the selection will be limited at the onset.  It won't be that way forever.  As long as he gets the support he'll need.

Ummm...I didn't say AcidFire was at "fault" for anything.  That appears to be coming straight from you.  It's AcidFire's project, he can do whatever he wants, and the rest of us are just happy he's willing to share. I simply expressed my personal disappointment as a severe RSI sufferer, and tried to back it up objectively, because in the past, AcidFire has been very welcoming of feedback.  As a more typical "end user" type, and as a female with RSI injuries, I sometimes offer a different perspective from the more typical "hard core" keyboard hacker/collector/enthusiast with strong "man hands."  Different perspectives are good - they can sometimes provide a more complete picture.     

That doesn't mean I expect him to change anything for little old me (you'll note, I didn't actually ASK him to), nor am I disappointed in HIM, or with the project in general.  I'm just disappointed.  And that's OK.  I've never gotten a pony either, and yet somehow I've survived.  And frankly, the pony thing is a MUCH bigger deal.



All the best, AcidFire!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kfmfe04 on Sat, 12 April 2014, 09:55:29
Browns feel dirty to me, too.

fwiw, I will patiently wait until an MX Red version is available - I don't have the skill and (debugging) patience to debug a badly soldered board (by me) so I'll wait until one is available in production.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: EvillePanda on Sat, 12 April 2014, 11:08:47
He did say it would be a stretch goal.  And it's not his fault.  He has to consider costs in order to get the project off the ground.  The lower actuation switches are more expensive.  It's unfortunate, but it happens.  I'm sure I don't have to say this, but if we want access to those lower actuation switches (or the other form factors for that matter), we should look at broadcasting AcidFire's project as loud and as far as we can to make sure he gets the funding he needs.  Let's look at this positively.  He's very close to starting his crowd funding.  As a community, let's focus on what we can do to make it successful, whether it be participating financially or getting the word out to people who can.  I'm excited for the board, even if the selection will be limited at the onset.  It won't be that way forever.  As long as he gets the support he'll need.

Ummm...I didn't say AcidFire was at "fault" for anything.  That appears to be coming straight from you.  It's AcidFire's project, he can do whatever he wants, and the rest of us are just happy he's willing to share. I simply expressed my personal disappointment as a severe RSI sufferer, and tried to back it up objectively, because in the past, AcidFire has been very welcoming of feedback.  As a more typical "end user" type, and as a female with RSI injuries, I sometimes offer a different perspective from the more typical "hard core" keyboard hacker/collector/enthusiast with strong "man hands."  Different perspectives are good - they can sometimes provide a more complete picture.     

That doesn't mean I expect him to change anything for little old me (you'll note, I didn't actually ASK him to), nor am I disappointed in HIM, or with the project in general.  I'm just disappointed.  And that's OK.  I've never gotten a pony either, and yet somehow I've survived.  And frankly, the pony thing is a MUCH bigger deal.



All the best, AcidFire!

That's fair.  I guess I misread.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: QuadGMoto on Sat, 12 April 2014, 11:28:11
AcidFire has mentioned that he is designing the switch mounting plates so that the switches can be opened without having to remove them. That means you can swap out springs without doing any kind of soldering.

That also means that due to how MX switches are designed, you could replace the stem and spring from the installed switch with the stem and spring of a different switch and the result will be that donor switch. The upper and lower case of the switches are exactly the same.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: doublethink665 on Sat, 12 April 2014, 23:01:35
AcidFire has mentioned that he is designing the switch mounting plates so that the switches can be opened without having to remove them. That means you can swap out springs without doing any kind of soldering.

That also means that due to how MX switches are designed, you could replace the stem and spring from the installed switch with the stem and spring of a different switch and the result will be that donor switch. The upper and lower case of the switches are exactly the same.

Brilliant! I can make a Frankenswitch! I just might be able to make something perfect for me. I don't know what I need yet, but the first things I will try are lowering the activation force and reducing the distance to activation.

I don't dislike blues at all, I simply suffer from arthritis, thumbs that dislocate, and nerve damage.   I originally bought a QFR with blues, but after a few months I switched to a QFS with browns.  It's simply less fatiguing for me to type on, feels better when gaming (I play WoW), and it's less disruptive given I share a small home office with my husband.   I've thought of trying reds, but I like having a tactile bump, plus my fingers can be twitchy and I'd likely make accidental keystrokes.  Perhaps it's because I have smaller hands than the average woman, but I also sometimes tap my fingers on the keys, and never make accidental key presses on the browns.

I'm actually in the "older crowd" too. :)  When I started working in IT, it was supporting Apple IIe and IBM PS/2 computers - I always loved those IBM keyboards!  My hands are probably such a mess because I've used computer keyboards heavily since the 80s, plus I used to love to draw, embroider/cross stitch, knit and make jewelry.  I reluctantly gave up my other hobbies, but they'll pry my computer keyboard from my cold dead hands!

Right on! I started writing code in '94. Good times. Even my giant hands have started to wear down from years of typing. Good ol' Apple IIe. My school had Apple IIes until the early 2000s. Those things were tanks.

I like to tap my fingers on the keys, too. Sometimes I lightly press the keys and let them spring back up.

I know that no matter what comes of this project, I won't be 100% happy right away. That's part of the fun. This is going to be vastly better than everything else I have ever tried. I am so picky and I change my mind so often that no one thing can ever fit all of my needs. I look at this as an adventure.

Wow. I just previewed this post and it is all over the place. That's what I get for posting when I have a fever :-)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Sun, 13 April 2014, 03:55:42
Brilliant! I can make a Frankenswitch! I just might be able to make something perfect for me. I don't know what I need yet, but the first things I will try are lowering the activation force and reducing the distance to activation.
You should look into the “jailhouse blue” mod. Your goals sound similar to what Leslieann was able to hack together http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=38091.30
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Sun, 13 April 2014, 18:43:41
He did say it would be a stretch goal.  And it's not his fault.  He has to consider costs in order to get the project off the ground.  The lower actuation switches are more expensive.  It's unfortunate, but it happens.  I'm sure I don't have to say this, but if we want access to those lower actuation switches (or the other form factors for that matter), we should look at broadcasting AcidFire's project as loud and as far as we can to make sure he gets the funding he needs.  Let's look at this positively.  He's very close to starting his crowd funding.  As a community, let's focus on what we can do to make it successful, whether it be participating financially or getting the word out to people who can.  I'm excited for the board, even if the selection will be limited at the onset.  It won't be that way forever.  As long as he gets the support he'll need.

Ummm...I didn't say AcidFire was at "fault" for anything.  That appears to be coming straight from you.  It's AcidFire's project, he can do whatever he wants, and the rest of us are just happy he's willing to share. I simply expressed my personal disappointment as a severe RSI sufferer, and tried to back it up objectively, because in the past, AcidFire has been very welcoming of feedback.  As a more typical "end user" type, and as a female with RSI injuries, I sometimes offer a different perspective from the more typical "hard core" keyboard hacker/collector/enthusiast with strong "man hands."  Different perspectives are good - they can sometimes provide a more complete picture.     

That doesn't mean I expect him to change anything for little old me (you'll note, I didn't actually ASK him to), nor am I disappointed in HIM, or with the project in general.  I'm just disappointed.  And that's OK.  I've never gotten a pony either, and yet somehow I've survived.  And frankly, the pony thing is a MUCH bigger deal.



All the best, AcidFire!

Kitty made a very good point and to be honest the selection of blues, clears & blacks was based simply on the fact that right now those are the three I'm able to order in small batches. In other words, habit. The minimum numbers for the switches are actually fairly close to each other, and the interesting thing is that blues, reds and browns all come in at roughly the same price.

So I'll correct myself, Blues, Reds and Browns will be the initial offering. There will be a stretch goal for Blacks, Clears, Greens and possibly Greys & Whites if I can get them and if there's enough demand. I will be looking at offering bags of 50 & 100's of switches as pledge rewards to help pad out the switch orders. I do have a minimum number of switches/funding I'd need to meet which will have a count down on the Crowd Supply campaign.

Panda's right too. The more people we can get behind this, the more I can offer with my project, and with making what are normally hard to find switches easier & cheaper for people to get. I'm working on a number of things in the background (on top of final prototype designs) to help with that as well :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jloomb on Mon, 14 April 2014, 03:28:27
^ wahoooo, my day just got better (wants dem browns)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jdoraemon on Mon, 14 April 2014, 05:15:28
Apologies for a very ignorant question: is is possible (and how hard would it be) to change switches say from brown to blue on the board?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: QuadGMoto on Mon, 14 April 2014, 11:55:26
So I'll correct myself, Blues, Reds and Browns will be the initial offering. There will be a stretch goal for Blacks, Clears, Greens…


Ah, the joys of such a project. When you make one person happy, you disappoint another.  :(


I'll just have to find a way to ensure that stretch goal is hit.  ;D
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 14 April 2014, 12:06:05
So I'll correct myself, Blues, Reds and Browns will be the initial offering. There will be a stretch goal for Blacks, Clears, Greens…


Ah, the joys of such a project. When you make one person happy, you disappoint another.  :(


I'll just have to find a way to ensure that stretch goal is hit.  ;D

Which switch color were you looking for Moto?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: QuadGMoto on Mon, 14 April 2014, 12:07:45
Apologies for a very ignorant question: is is possible (and how hard would it be) to change switches say from brown to blue on the board?


Easiest way: Order it with blues in the first place.  ;)


Cherry MX switches can be opened from the top if the plate they're mounted in has the appropriate cutouts. AcidFire's design does have those cutouts.


Here's a thread showing how to open switches and swap springs out: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44749.0#post_Guide


If you also swap the slider, you wind up with that kind of switch the slider came from. (Replace brown slider with blue, you now have a blue switch.)


Here's a good photo essay on how to make a binder clip tool for opening switches. (If you can read the language, you're better than me.  :)) ) http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/tipandtech/3520312


There's also an interest check thread on custom made switch opening tools. Hopefully it'll graduate to a group buy soon! http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54168.0
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: QuadGMoto on Mon, 14 April 2014, 12:08:11
Which switch color were you looking for Moto?


Clear
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: linziyi on Mon, 14 April 2014, 20:03:59
You can buy clear switches (as well as grey switches which I personally look forward to) from mechanicalkeyboards.com
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 15 April 2014, 11:24:14
You can buy clear switches (as well as grey switches which I personally look forward to) from mechanicalkeyboards.com

You sir have become my new best friend. The price for 100 lots of switches is better than the quotes I've been getting and I've been looking at 150,000 switch quotes! It's so frustrating I can't deal with Cherry directly, but it looks like I'll have to have a conversation with mechanicalkeyboards.com and see if they'll let me buy in bulk from them.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: OverKill on Tue, 15 April 2014, 12:21:21
**** i figured that was common knowledge. That was the only place i was able to find switches besides digikey.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: QuadGMoto on Tue, 15 April 2014, 12:29:21
**** i figured that was common knowledge. That was the only place i was able to find switches besides digikey.


Mouser also has them. But in quantities of 100, they're still almost twice the price that mechanicalkeyboards is showing.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 15 April 2014, 13:00:10
**** i figured that was common knowledge. That was the only place i was able to find switches besides digikey.


Mouser also has them. But in quantities of 100, they're still almost twice the price that mechanicalkeyboards is showing.

Yup. I wish I had know this sooner, could have saved myself a fair bit of cash. I know where I'm ordering from now on (including an order today).

Also, since it was asked and I forgot to answer, I'm still looking at offering ALPs/Matias versions as well once the Cherry MX versions are up and doing well. Because the controller is a daughter board, it's relatively simple to add these options down the road.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: linziyi on Tue, 15 April 2014, 23:09:35
Glad that I can help around  ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: xman on Wed, 16 April 2014, 23:13:47
Apologies for a very ignorant question: is is possible (and how hard would it be) to change switches say from brown to blue on the board?


Easiest way: Order it with blues in the first place.  ;)


Cherry MX switches can be opened from the top if the plate they're mounted in has the appropriate cutouts. AcidFire's design does have those cutouts.


Here's a thread showing how to open switches and swap springs out: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44749.0#post_Guide


If you also swap the slider, you wind up with that kind of switch the slider came from. (Replace brown slider with blue, you now have a blue switch.)


Here's a good photo essay on how to make a binder clip tool for opening switches. (If you can read the language, you're better than me.  :)) ) http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/tipandtech/3520312


There's also an interest check thread on custom made switch opening tools. Hopefully it'll graduate to a group buy soon! http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54168.0

My understanding is (please correct me if I'm wrong)
that in order to be able to open a switch that way...
the switch must NOT have a built-in-to-the-switch LED.
Is that correct?

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: sordna on Thu, 17 April 2014, 02:01:32
Correct. There is a mod where you drill a large enough hole through the switch top for the LED to pass through, but normally you cannot open a switch that has a LED on it.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Sat, 19 April 2014, 09:12:40
Yes, it's definitely a bit frustrating to try to open them once the LED is in. Of course this can be solved in a couple of ways, both of which unfortunately won't be available to me for a little while yet (unless the campaign goes really well). The first is to offer an evolution of the Cherry MX, a bit like the Mattias is of the ALPS switches and to intergrate things like an open switch top. For those you who I met at the Seattle Mini Maker, I believe I showed most of you the modified clear top which actually allowed me to use a square through hole RGB switch with it. The other option is to get clear switches like the ones in the upcoming Corsair boards and mount the LED directly to the board, but it seems like those won't be available to me to purchase for a while. The current route I'm still exploring is an addon board to sit on top of the plate, which does allow for a greater variety of switches to be used as well as only being an added expense to those that want it. there's also the ease of the install; remove caps, screw down board, replace caps, done. No soldering required. These boards won't be available for the Crowd Supply campaign, but the capacity to add them will be there.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: xman on Mon, 21 April 2014, 13:17:45
It's nice that Cherry MX switches have the option
 -- if certain criteria are met -- of being easily opened,
with no soldering, to have their actuation force changed
(by changing/modifying their springs &/or slider-stems).


There's been some mention of switches other than Cherry MX...

Do any of the other switches have easy (no soldering needed)
adjustable actuation force?  Or is Cherry MX the only one with that?

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Nico_h on Mon, 21 April 2014, 17:59:58

These boards won't be available for the Crowd Supply campaign, but the capacity to add them will be there.

Will the keycaps you offer for the initial sale be compatible with backlighting? (Will material will be glow-through?) If not, do you plan to offer such keycaps for sale later or would you rather just recommend a compatible set from a third party?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Thimplum on Mon, 21 April 2014, 19:19:01
If you try to please everyone here, you'll end up pleasing no one. The hard part is knowing what well meaning advice to ignore, or at least to give less weight to.

You have your own design in mind, I'd say see that one through, and if enough people demand some changes, then build another model for them.

I told him that in July or August. Not pointing fingers though, haha.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: ryanlee0203 on Mon, 21 April 2014, 22:04:27
I can't hardly WAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT!!!

Sir Acidfire, when do u expect the manufacturing day?

I'm ready to assemble any keyboards but still waiting..  :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: yuktsi on Mon, 21 April 2014, 23:08:31
I wonder if you could share with us the cad file at the end of project?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Scoox on Tue, 22 April 2014, 00:08:52
First post but a long-time lurker. Looking forward to this keyboard!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: smferris on Tue, 22 April 2014, 00:43:23
Also, since it was asked and I forgot to answer, I'm still looking at offering ALPs/Matias versions as well once the Cherry MX versions are up and doing well. Because the controller is a daughter board, it's relatively simple to add these options down the road.

I was hoping to be one of the beta testers so that I could figure out if I liked the board enough to buy 3 more in the Kickstarter, one for each location I use a keyboard.  Now you tease me with Matias switches and make me ponder if I'll be upgrading/replacing them all later if it turns out I like the Matias switches better.  Would it make any sense to try to convert a keyboard from Cherry to Matias or would it be more practical to just replace the whole board and sell off whichever one I liked less?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: indigoglyph on Tue, 22 April 2014, 03:45:54
(Another long-term lurker votes...)

AcidFire, thank you. The decision to make reds/bowns available in the Crowd Supply campaign seals it, for me. As long as the split design is an option, and international shipping is possible, I'll buy.

Of course, if a future version develops scooped keywells, I'll then have to buy one of those as well!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 23 April 2014, 00:37:47
It's nice that Cherry MX switches have the option
 -- if certain criteria are met -- of being easily opened,
with no soldering, to have their actuation force changed
(by changing/modifying their springs &/or slider-stems).

There's been some mention of switches other than Cherry MX...

Do any of the other switches have easy (no soldering needed)
adjustable actuation force?  Or is Cherry MX the only one with that?
Technically the Alps/Matias should, since it's basically just a spring swap. How accessible they'll be after being mounted I'm not entirely sure, I'll find out when I can get some ordered.

These boards won't be available for the Crowd Supply campaign, but the capacity to add them will be there.
Will the keycaps you offer for the initial sale be compatible with backlighting? (Will material will be glow-through?) If not, do you plan to offer such keycaps for sale later or would you rather just recommend a compatible set from a third party?
Yes, the base set will be compatible and made from a translucent PC/PBT, even if you don't install or use the backlight.

If you try to please everyone here, you'll end up pleasing no one. The hard part is knowing what well meaning advice to ignore, or at least to give less weight to.
You have your own design in mind, I'd say see that one through, and if enough people demand some changes, then build another model for them.
I told him that in July or August. Not pointing fingers though, haha.
True. On the other side, I've always believed that a project/company/whatever that doesn't involve the people it's meant for is doomed for failure. The iPhone I think is a perfect example. Apple keeps giving people what they think they want, instead of listening and as a result they're losing users to platforms that do, like Android based devices.

I can't hardly WAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT!!!

Sir Acidfire, when do u expect the manufacturing day?

I'm ready to assemble any keyboards but still waiting..  :'( :'( :'(
Should be coming soon :D Trust me, no one wants these boards out into the world more than I do. Still aiming to get the Crowd Supply campaign up on May 16th, and the faster we hit the funding goal the sooner I can get them out. Crowd Supply releases the initial funds as soon as the goal is reached, instead of waiting for the end like Kickstarter & Indiegogo.

I wonder if you could share with us the cad file at the end of project?
Yes, once the backer rewards have all been fulfilled the CAD, Altium, and other design files will be shared, as well as the firmware & desktop/mobile config apps.

Also, since it was asked and I forgot to answer, I'm still looking at offering ALPs/Matias versions as well once the Cherry MX versions are up and doing well. Because the controller is a daughter board, it's relatively simple to add these options down the road.

I was hoping to be one of the beta testers so that I could figure out if I liked the board enough to buy 3 more in the Kickstarter, one for each location I use a keyboard.  Now you tease me with Matias switches and make me ponder if I'll be upgrading/replacing them all later if it turns out I like the Matias switches better.  Would it make any sense to try to convert a keyboard from Cherry to Matias or would it be more practical to just replace the whole board and sell off whichever one I liked less?
Looking at the numbers, aside from the shipping it would be cheaper to just swap out the keyset modules. Even cheaper if you sell off the cherry mx modules to another user.

First post but a long-time lurker. Looking forward to this keyboard!
(Another long-term lurker votes...)

AcidFire, thank you. The decision to make reds/bowns available in the Crowd Supply campaign seals it, for me. As long as the split design is an option, and international shipping is possible, I'll buy.

Of course, if a future version develops scooped keywells, I'll then have to buy one of those as well!
Glad to have you both aboard! The split design will be the first on offer for the campaign and yes, international shipping will be offered as well. If you haven't done so already, you can sign up for information & updates from the Crowd Supply campaign at http://www.crowdsupply.com/multiplxd/axios-keyboard (http://www.crowdsupply.com/multiplxd/axios-keyboard).

Also, since I haven't gotten to post much for pretty pictures lately, I added something with the last batch of prototypes that came off the laser:
(http://axios.io/media/ergo48.jpg)
(http://axios.io/media/straight48.jpg)
:D
These will be the last on the list to get the case files done, but if there's enough interest I wouldn't see any problems producing them (the PCB is already done:) ).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 23 April 2014, 01:35:34
Do any of the other switches have easy (no soldering needed)
adjustable actuation force?  Or is Cherry MX the only one with that?

Technically the Alps/Matias should, since it's basically just a spring swap. How accessible they'll be after being mounted I'm not entirely sure, I'll find out when I can get some ordered.

Actually Alps switches (and Matias switches) are easier to open up when mounted in a plate than when they’re just loose. Swapping the springs out would be quite straight-forward, but you’d have to have some replacement springs to use, and I’m not sure where those can be found (outside of taking apart old switches).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kfmfe04 on Wed, 23 April 2014, 09:07:52
Looks great - just signed up for the Crowd Source.

BTW, for the split/v-shaped board, is it all one piece?

I'm wondering about tenting (whether it will be possible or included in this version)...  ...thank you for the great work!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: EvillePanda on Wed, 23 April 2014, 10:31:25
I've registered as well. Very excited.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Scoox on Fri, 25 April 2014, 02:40:20
I am curious as to how it feels using thumb keys as modifier keys. I have been using layers to type symbols and numbers on a regular QWERTY keyboard for many years. Originally I tried using the Alt keys to the sides of the spacebar as modifiers to enable the various layers, but when later I started using a pair of high-quality footswitches to do the job it felt felt a lot more comfortable, although admittedly at the expense of portability. The reason is that, because on a regular keyboard the thumbs are the only fingers that stay put, since their only job is to push the space key, I naturally tend to hinge around the thumbs when reaching for other keys. The minute my thumbs leave their "home" position I lose my bearing and have to fumble around to get back home. This only happens when the thumb operates modifier keys, as it usually means that the entire hand has to move away from the home position. When using the thumb keys as, say, Enter or Backspace, only one key is being pressed at a time, so while the thumb leaves the home position, the other fingers don't, therefore there I can use the other fingers that haven't moved as a reference. I am asking because I see AcidFire is working on several variants of his keyboard with different thumbpad configurations and it would be interesting to know the practical differences between them.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: sordna on Fri, 25 April 2014, 12:00:08
I have used thumb keys for modifiers in a Kinesis advantage keyboard and it worked fine. So it all depends on location. If you tried it on a regular keyboard then I can see how it wouldn't be comfortable.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kittykatmax on Fri, 25 April 2014, 16:56:44
IMHO thumb modifiers will work best on a keyboard with angled thumb clusters.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: spspencer on Fri, 25 April 2014, 21:43:37
I am curious as to how it feels using thumb keys as modifier keys. I have been using layers to type symbols and numbers on a regular QWERTY keyboard for many years. Originally I tried using the Alt keys to the sides of the spacebar as modifiers to enable the various layers, but when later I started using a pair of high-quality footswitches to do the job it felt felt a lot more comfortable, although admittedly at the expense of portability. The reason is that, because on a regular keyboard the thumbs are the only fingers that stay put, since their only job is to push the space key, I naturally tend to hinge around the thumbs when reaching for other keys. The minute my thumbs leave their "home" position I lose my bearing and have to fumble around to get back home. This only happens when the thumb operates modifier keys, as it usually means that the entire hand has to move away from the home position. When using the thumb keys as, say, Enter or Backspace, only one key is being pressed at a time, so while the thumb leaves the home position, the other fingers don't, therefore there I can use the other fingers that haven't moved as a reference. I am asking because I see AcidFire is working on several variants of his keyboard with different thumbpad configurations and it would be interesting to know the practical differences between them.

I love using thumb modifiers for my egrodox. I have painful wrists, so I try to move my hand and fingers as little as possible. I only use half of the available finger keys on the egrodox. I touch qwerty, but am trying out Dvorak. Here is my current layout: https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?referer=SPAJZH&hash=c9749fde145f902c34b84a3c76bfb0dd it only took a little while to get used to the mod layer. For example, tab is on a thumb shift layer, but typed with the same finger. The only difference being I don't have to stretch for it, (it's typed thumb layer "a"). Granted, it is terrible for games with a lot of key binds (I'm looking at you WoW) but works great for general typing. I also use SA profile keycaps to give the ergodox a bit of bowl shape. I'll attach a photo to demonstrate. The reduced key set + the shaped keys feels wonderful for me.

What I'm looking forward to in AcidFire's offerings is the tented thumb clusters. Even better would be one of the mini boards with tented thumb clusters. I took a lump of clay and made the ideal keyboard for me. Granted it is far from being an actual keyboard, but it does contain the most available keys for minimal finger movement (once again "for me" probably not for anyone else). I'll also include a picture of it. The keycaps don't mean anything, the green dots are the home row.

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Scoox on Fri, 25 April 2014, 22:14:58
Cool, I guess I've never had proper thumb keys, plus my set-up was not very ergonomic to begin with, being a regular qwertboard.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: spspencer on Fri, 25 April 2014, 22:26:36
Cool, I guess I've never had proper thumb keys, plus my set-up was not very ergonomic to begin with, being a regular qwertboard.

yeah, I don't think it would work on a regular board. On my regular boards, the thumbs are for space or an occasion the control key.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: xman on Mon, 28 April 2014, 20:13:05
Hi AcidFire,

You said:
I want to make sure I'm clear about it, the flat straight/ergo split designs currently don't include space for F keys, only the split tent (I really need proper names for these designs) have the extra space for dedicated keys. Otherwise, there are enough keys in the middle of the flat designs to actually set them as dedicated F keys. If I do a dedicated desktop version (remember these designs were intended more for travel) I will include these F rows as dedicated keys.


For clarity please explain what you meant when you said:
"extra space for dedicated keys"

Does that mean there is extra space, but no actual F keys?
Or does that mean the extra space will have actual F keys?


Also for clarity it would help to see a drawing or a
picture of "the split tent" and "the flat designs".

Thanks!

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: tups on Tue, 29 April 2014, 14:33:06
xman, I think this refers to an add-on module (similar to the thumb clusters being separate modules). AcidFire mentioned that the boards will support quite a few simultaneous modules and IIRC the F-keys won't be included in the base version but as an add-on.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: daerid on Thu, 01 May 2014, 17:43:59
Hooray for the mailing list! I don't check this thread nearly enough
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: davkol on Mon, 05 May 2014, 08:58:17
Awesome! I wonder why I haven't checked in earlier, although I know about the project more or less since its beginning... I especially wish I had signed up for the beta.

About the switches. If I understand it correctly, backlighting will be optional. If it's so, it shouldn't be a problem to open switches, as long as there's a phantom-style plate. Then, fewer kinds of Cherry MX would be a complete non-issue, because a pair of tweezers and a bag of Korean springs would completely solve it.

I'm kinda confused, what the name of the keyboard is currently. It appears Google have burried the Nexus brand, but so did you. The name is Axios now, isn't it? And what's ErgoGP? Is it the split keyboard (as opposed to 70% and 40%), or is it depricated as well?

I see that the keyboard is modular. Have you considered palm-button modules like some users have added to their kinesis?

Another thought... What about PBT SA keycaps? Unfortunately, I haven't seen them anywhere but SP's inventory and well... the price w/ shipping to Central Europe was quite steep.

Anyway, back to work, so that I can afford this. Maybe I'll even give up on getting the czarek's planned ErgoDox-compatible wireless keyboard.
Title: Re: AcidFire's custom keyboard
Post by: spspencer on Mon, 05 May 2014, 11:05:11
woah. that is beautiful. the curves and legs remind me of a grand piano.

I'm starting to think I'm going to have to do a mixed white&black keyset lol. I also updated the thread title, considering now that you guys have said it all I can see when I look at it is grand piano  ;)

Also, while these are a bit big, I'm sure I could find similar to look like piano legs heh:
http://www.mbs-standoffs.com/Aluminum-Standoffs-Diameter-12-Standoff-12-Aluminum-Black-Anodized-Finish_p_3001.html (http://www.mbs-standoffs.com/Aluminum-Standoffs-Diameter-12-Standoff-12-Aluminum-Black-Anodized-Finish_p_3001.html)


ErgoGP = Ergodox Grand Piano

...and it just grew from there!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: technomancy on Tue, 06 May 2014, 11:13:02
IMHO thumb modifiers will work best on a keyboard with angled thumb clusters.

Thumb modifiers are just about the best thing ever, especially for Emacs users. They're great with separate thumb clusters, but I have a bunch of thumb modifiers (1x and 1.5x) on my custom 40% just along the bottom row and that works great too.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: yakitysax on Wed, 07 May 2014, 06:22:40
IMHO thumb modifiers will work best on a keyboard with angled thumb clusters.

Thumb modifiers are just about the best thing ever, especially for Emacs users. They're great with separate thumb clusters, but I have a bunch of thumb modifiers (1x and 1.5x) on my custom 40% just along the bottom row and that works great too.
If you look at some of the older keyboard designs designed for using at a UNIX workstation, they had the design of symmetric modifiers along the bottom row instead of an obscenely idiotic monster space bar.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 08 May 2014, 15:13:07
Hi AcidFire,

You said:
I want to make sure I'm clear about it, the flat straight/ergo split designs currently don't include space for F keys, only the split tent (I really need proper names for these designs) have the extra space for dedicated keys. Otherwise, there are enough keys in the middle of the flat designs to actually set them as dedicated F keys. If I do a dedicated desktop version (remember these designs were intended more for travel) I will include these F rows as dedicated keys.


For clarity please explain what you meant when you said:
"extra space for dedicated keys"

Does that mean there is extra space, but no actual F keys?
Or does that mean the extra space will have actual F keys?


Also for clarity it would help to see a drawing or a
picture of "the split tent" and "the flat designs".

Thanks!
xman, I think this refers to an add-on module (similar to the thumb clusters being separate modules). AcidFire mentioned that the boards will support quite a few simultaneous modules and IIRC the F-keys won't be included in the base version but as an add-on.

What that means is that the base design, while having an area you can add F-keys to, will not include them in the base kit. The addon modules however are designed to be a simple plug in and go, they were simply omitted from the base kit for cost reasons. I am however thinking of including them with the kit in the crowd supply campaign as a bonus.

As for a drawing, I should hopefully have some new photos done this weekend in anticipation of the Crowd Supply campaign.


Awesome! I wonder why I haven't checked in earlier, although I know about the project more or less since its beginning... I especially wish I had signed up for the beta.

About the switches. If I understand it correctly, backlighting will be optional. If it's so, it shouldn't be a problem to open switches, as long as there's a phantom-style plate. Then, fewer kinds of Cherry MX would be a complete non-issue, because a pair of tweezers and a bag of Korean springs would completely solve it.

I'm kinda confused, what the name of the keyboard is currently. It appears Google have burried the Nexus brand, but so did you. The name is Axios now, isn't it? And what's ErgoGP? Is it the split keyboard (as opposed to 70% and 40%), or is it depricated as well?

I see that the keyboard is modular. Have you considered palm-button modules like some users have added to their kinesis?

Another thought... What about PBT SA keycaps? Unfortunately, I haven't seen them anywhere but SP's inventory and well... the price w/ shipping to Central Europe was quite steep.

Anyway, back to work, so that I can afford this. Maybe I'll even give up on getting the czarek's planned ErgoDox-compatible wireless keyboard.

Yes, backlighting will be optional, so someone who hasn't installed LEDs should have no problem opening switches in the plate. There is however some stuff I'm working on the switch side that is completely hush hush, but very promising ;) Unfortunately thats all i can say for now until the crowd supply campaign.

Because of the nature of the palm rests I haven't looked at palm switches yet, however because of the nature of the modularity and the break outs available on the board its always a possibility. At this point I don't want to let feature creep slow me down but it's on the list of things to investigate after the first models are available.

As for the SA profile, I have a set of translucent PC keys coming in from SP today so I can try out the profile. Unfortunately compared to DSA/DCS there's a fairly low demand for it so I'm not sure when I'd actually end up offering it. That being said, as with most things I won't rule out the possibility of offering them in the future, it all comes down to numbers.

I am curious as to how it feels using thumb keys as modifier keys. I have been using layers to type symbols and numbers on a regular QWERTY keyboard for many years. Originally I tried using the Alt keys to the sides of the spacebar as modifiers to enable the various layers, but when later I started using a pair of high-quality footswitches to do the job it felt felt a lot more comfortable, although admittedly at the expense of portability. The reason is that, because on a regular keyboard the thumbs are the only fingers that stay put, since their only job is to push the space key, I naturally tend to hinge around the thumbs when reaching for other keys. The minute my thumbs leave their "home" position I lose my bearing and have to fumble around to get back home. This only happens when the thumb operates modifier keys, as it usually means that the entire hand has to move away from the home position. When using the thumb keys as, say, Enter or Backspace, only one key is being pressed at a time, so while the thumb leaves the home position, the other fingers don't, therefore there I can use the other fingers that haven't moved as a reference. I am asking because I see AcidFire is working on several variants of his keyboard with different thumbpad configurations and it would be interesting to know the practical differences between them.

I love using thumb modifiers for my egrodox. I have painful wrists, so I try to move my hand and fingers as little as possible. I only use half of the available finger keys on the egrodox. I touch qwerty, but am trying out Dvorak. Here is my current layout: https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?referer=SPAJZH&hash=c9749fde145f902c34b84a3c76bfb0dd it only took a little while to get used to the mod layer. For example, tab is on a thumb shift layer, but typed with the same finger. The only difference being I don't have to stretch for it, (it's typed thumb layer "a"). Granted, it is terrible for games with a lot of key binds (I'm looking at you WoW) but works great for general typing. I also use SA profile keycaps to give the ergodox a bit of bowl shape. I'll attach a photo to demonstrate. The reduced key set + the shaped keys feels wonderful for me.

What I'm looking forward to in AcidFire's offerings is the tented thumb clusters. Even better would be one of the mini boards with tented thumb clusters. I took a lump of clay and made the ideal keyboard for me. Granted it is far from being an actual keyboard, but it does contain the most available keys for minimal finger movement (once again "for me" probably not for anyone else). I'll also include a picture of it. The keycaps don't mean anything, the green dots are the home row.


I've been looking at a tented version with the smaller clusters as well, and I even have daughter boards done for testing, however for the time being they've been tabled until the first designs are ready to go out (I like your layout btw).

***************************************************************

As for an overdue update, I've had my Crowd Supply budget, reward levels & stretch goals approved, so the only thing left for prep is to provide a writeup, a video and some photos. If I get very lucky, I might be able to get this all done in time to launch for the Bay Area Maker Faire. If that isn't the case, it'll go up shortly after. I hope to see those of you in San Francisco down there :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: davkol on Thu, 08 May 2014, 15:54:47
As for the SA profile, I have a set of translucent PC keys coming in from SP today so I can try out the profile. Unfortunately compared to DSA/DCS there's a fairly low demand for it so I'm not sure when I'd actually end up offering it. That being said, as with most things I won't rule out the possibility of offering them in the future, it all comes down to numbers.
Round 5 (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Round_5) and some other group buys feature this kind of keycaps, but usually not in PBT. They should be thicker (good thing), taller (matter of personal preference) and spherical (IMHO good thing). Moreover, they don't fit on MX stems (especially MX Clear) nearly as tightly as DSA; there's a quite big risk of unintentional opening or even damaging switches when removing DSA keycaps.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: James35 on Sat, 10 May 2014, 20:27:02
At one point in this thread you mentioned a 4x5 project that you were thinking about. Sounds like that could make an outstanding numeric keypad.  Is that still something you might do in the future?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: xman on Mon, 12 May 2014, 20:50:44
Hi AcidFire,
Full NKRO is reportedly now possible on the ErgoDox.
I'm begging for full NKRO capability for your keyboard!
I know you discussed full NKRO previously,
and you may have already worked it out,
but I'm posting these links anyway, just in case...

It looks like wuqe has had success...   
Wuqe said: "I'm using Hasu's TMK firmware with NKRO on"
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53245.msg1195642#msg1195642

My full layout is available at
https://github.com/simonmelhart/tmk_keyboard/blob/simon_layout/keyboard/ergodox/keymap_simon.h

Official documentation:
https://github.com/cub-uanic/tmk_keyboard/blob/master/doc/build.md

TMK on Ergodox thread:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48106.0

Once you turn on NKRO_ENABLE, you can turn on NKRO with shift+ shift+N. Alternatively, you can edit common/host.c and set keyboard_nkro to true by default, so it starts up in NKRO. I haven't had any compatibility problems.

Changelist for that:
https://github.com/simonmelhart/tmk_keyboard/commit/b8375

everything's from Hasu's TMK firmware:
https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard

cub-uanic ported it to Ergodox, so check his fork for a better 'Dox-friendly starting point:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48106.0

Here are some more items of interest in the TMK documentation:

On defining a keymap (complete with all available action codes):
https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/blob/master/doc/keymap.md

Keycode list:
https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/blob/master/doc/keycode.txt

On building and loading Teensy with the firmware: https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/blob/master/doc/build.md

The Shift+Shift combos list:
https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard#magic-commands

To get debug output, you use PJRC's HIDListen program: http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/hid_listen.html

Quote from: clickclack123 on Tue, 28 January 2014, 08:30:10
After you make your keymap_simon.h file, how do you tell it to actually use that file?

You add a reference to it in the keymap.c file, and then build it with an extra command line parameter. Here's my changelist for this: https://github.com/simonmelhart/tmk_keyboard/commit/72655e3

See also my customized Makefile: https://github.com/simonmelhart/tmk_keyboard/commit/36a4cd19597eb63e9
____________________________________________________
.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: smferris on Tue, 13 May 2014, 01:20:35
Hi AcidFire,
Full NKRO is reportedly now possible on the ErgoDox.
I'm begging for full NKRO capability for your keyboard!
I know you discussed full NKRO previously,
and you may have already worked it out,
but I'm posting these links anyway, just in case...

Even if it doesn't make it in as a feature for the default firmware for the board, I'm sure we'll eventually have a firmware version that supports it, either as a modification to the stock firmware or a port of some other keyboard firmware to this hardware.  I want NKRO as well, and I'll add the feature myself if that's what it takes. :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: eviltobz on Tue, 13 May 2014, 03:18:56
NKRO would be great (i need to get around to trying plover at some point) but first be mindful of having everything being absolutely rock solid & robust on the basic usb keyboard spec. i've tried the TMK firmware on my dox, and with my kb & mouse in a little usb hub then straight into my mac it works fine, taking the hub into my belkin thunderbolt dock, then into my mac leads to various problems. hasu has been helpful at pointing out a few possible fixes to pull in, but for now i've switched back to using ic07's code which is less problematic for me, although that doesn't support waking my pooter from sleep mode. ho hum.

as this project seems to be aiming for a broader appeal than the DIY ergodox you really need to be sure that when people plug the board in, through whatever chain of devices they might use, it will work so soundly and smoothly that it just fades into the background and no one will even think of all the hard work you put in.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: xman on Wed, 14 May 2014, 18:36:14
NKRO would be great (i need to get around to trying plover at some point) but first be mindful of having everything being absolutely rock solid & robust on the basic usb keyboard spec. i've tried the TMK firmware on my dox, and with my kb & mouse in a little usb hub then straight into my mac it works fine, taking the hub into my belkin thunderbolt dock, then into my mac leads to various problems. hasu has been helpful at pointing out a few possible fixes to pull in, but for now i've switched back to using ic07's code which is less problematic for me, although that doesn't support waking my pooter from sleep mode. ho hum.

as this project seems to be aiming for a broader appeal than the DIY ergodox you really need to be sure that when people plug the board in, through whatever chain of devices they might use, it will work so soundly and smoothly that it just fades into the background and no one will even think of all the hard work you put in.

I agree with you 100% in theory, except when you say:
"whatever chain of devices they might use"
because that's a bit too much to expect in practice...

I think a more reasonable expectation might be:
"whatever known-to-be-good/fully-tested devices they might use".

But I get your point... rock solid, robust, smooth, no problems.
Any devices that are connected/chained will need to be that way, also.


Sorry to hear about your thunderbolt & USB hub problems.
  I've seen devices that work fine when connected alone,
  but when chained, they won't play well with each other.
  Sometimes the connection order matters.
  Sometimes the power-on order matters.
  Sometimes turning on various polling options matters.
  I've also heard of issues with some USB 3.0 ports, so
  if your "pooter" has a 2.0 port, that might be a good test.


For those who do not (currently) need full NKRO,
or for when someone wants maximum compatibility...
Hasu's normal default setting is full NKRO "off".

For those who -- like yourself -- are going to try/use Plover
or try/use anything where full NKRO is mandatory...
then the full NKRO option needs to be enabled...
so it's able to be turned "on" when needed,
(even though the default setting is full NKRO "off")
so a specific key combination can activate it.
.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: sordna on Wed, 14 May 2014, 21:21:05
Didn't know that, being able to turn NKRO on/off is brilliant ! 
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: eviltobz on Thu, 15 May 2014, 03:17:00
I agree with you 100% in theory, except when you say: "whatever chain of devices they might use" because that's a bit too much to expect in practice...

I think a more reasonable expectation might be: "whatever known-to-be-good/fully-tested devices they might use".
well, i still think it's a good goal to aim for :) but yeah, there are practical limitations to how far it can all be tried and tested. the key point is that for something to appeal outside of a community of techy tweakers it needs to just work in most of the same environments that other commercial keyboards work, with no problems. once you start piling more hubs and devices in to the mix it will be less of an issue for the common user, but i think my sort of set up is pretty reasonable. a big selling point for a thunderbolt hub is a single connection to plug into your lappy to get everything anchored to your desktop up and running. having to plug in 2 cables is a big old first world problem, but it's a first world problem that i bought an expensive thunderbolt hub to solve ;) and i'm intending to build the usb into a new case for my dox, so to the outside world its very existence would seem to disappear. it's nice to have a couple of usb ports on your keyboard.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: conandy on Fri, 16 May 2014, 12:53:49
Itching for one of these.  So...hard..to..resist...current...ergodox...massdrop.....Can't wait for the crowd sourcing campaign to go live. 

Been living with a TECK for a few months now....really wanting those thumb clusters.   

You are doing a great job so far Acidfire.  As you have noted in other posts, don't to let feature creep bog you down.  Lot's of great ideas floating around this forum make it hard not to try to please everyone. 

We'll love it regardless of how many features you get into version 1.0.   


 
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: dsmitify on Mon, 19 May 2014, 07:17:12
How's it hanging AcidFire? Any new info for us?  :thumb:
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 23 May 2014, 19:17:05
Hi AcidFire,
Full NKRO is reportedly now possible on the ErgoDox.
I'm begging for full NKRO capability for your keyboard!
I know you discussed full NKRO previously,
and you may have already worked it out,
but I'm posting these links anyway, just in case...

Even if it doesn't make it in as a feature for the default firmware for the board, I'm sure we'll eventually have a firmware version that supports it, either as a modification to the stock firmware or a port of some other keyboard firmware to this hardware.  I want NKRO as well, and I'll add the feature myself if that's what it takes. :)

NKRO would be great (i need to get around to trying plover at some point) but first be mindful of having everything being absolutely rock solid & robust on the basic usb keyboard spec. i've tried the TMK firmware on my dox, and with my kb & mouse in a little usb hub then straight into my mac it works fine, taking the hub into my belkin thunderbolt dock, then into my mac leads to various problems. hasu has been helpful at pointing out a few possible fixes to pull in, but for now i've switched back to using ic07's code which is less problematic for me, although that doesn't support waking my pooter from sleep mode. ho hum.

as this project seems to be aiming for a broader appeal than the DIY ergodox you really need to be sure that when people plug the board in, through whatever chain of devices they might use, it will work so soundly and smoothly that it just fades into the background and no one will even think of all the hard work you put in.

Tobz pretty much nailed it. First and foremost the end goal is to get the base firmware as rock solid as possible before adding things like NKRO. If it's possible to get it nailed down for the 1.0 release, then of course it'll be included. If not, all the source will be made available and I'll provide whatever support is needed to make it happen.

Itching for one of these.  So...hard..to..resist...current...ergodox...massdrop.....Can't wait for the crowd sourcing campaign to go live. 

Been living with a TECK for a few months now....really wanting those thumb clusters.   

You are doing a great job so far Acidfire.  As you have noted in other posts, don't to let feature creep bog you down.  Lot's of great ideas floating around this forum make it hard not to try to please everyone. 

We'll love it regardless of how many features you get into version 1.0.   

I certainly hope so! Feature creep thankfully is a dead issue and currently is not holding back development.

Round 5 (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Round_5) and some other group buys feature this kind of keycaps, but usually not in PBT. They should be thicker (good thing), taller (matter of personal preference) and spherical (IMHO good thing). Moreover, they don't fit on MX stems (especially MX Clear) nearly as tightly as DSA; there's a quite big risk of unintentional opening or even damaging switches when removing DSA keycaps.
Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to get a set onto my working prototype yet, but I'm looking forward to exploring the difference in the feel of it.

At one point in this thread you mentioned a 4x5 project that you were thinking about. Sounds like that could make an outstanding numeric keypad.  Is that still something you might do in the future?
Absolutely, I have the board files done but not produced yet. I haven't tackled the case design, but that should be mostly a modification of the existing 3x4 cluster design.

How's it hanging AcidFire? Any new info for us?  :thumb:
First off, I'd like to say thank you to those of you who stopped by to say hi (including the lurkers ;) ) during the Bay Area Maker Faire, getting the chance to meet people and hear how excited you are is a big motivator to not only get this out there, but to do it right.

I also got the chance to sit down with Jesse from keyboard.io for a bit, which was definitely a highlight from the trip and the level of information that passed back and forth exemplifys why doing this open source is definitely the right choice (I look forward to doing it again next time I head down that way).

Unfortunately, I did wind up with a bit of bad news coming home from the show however. Upon opening the Pelican case I had borrowed from the office to keep my stuff safe, I was greeting with a painful sight:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/broken/broken-axios_100_palm_rest-left.jpg)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/broken/broken-axios_100_palm_rest-right.jpg)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/broken/broken-axios_80.jpg)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/broken/broken-axios_thumb_01.jpg)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/broken/broken-axios_thumb_03.jpg)
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/broken/broken-axios_thumb_04.jpg)
Even my Hakko took a beating:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/broken/broken-hakko.jpg)
(Thankfully it still works)
Whatever beating the case had taken was bad enough that two of the latches were broken as well.

Sadly this means I need to cut and assemble a slew of new units this weekend instead of photographing them and getting started on the launch video, which delays me a bit on getting content ready for the launch.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Pharo212 on Sat, 24 May 2014, 14:35:02
Question for when the kickstarter (crowdsupply?) goes up;

Will there be an option without keycaps, in case someone has a set they'd like to use instead?

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: QuadGMoto on Sat, 24 May 2014, 14:51:51
Whatever beating the case had taken was bad enough that two of the latches were broken as well.


Geez! What did they do? Drop it from the plane at 10,000 feet? They had to work at it to do that much damage!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: FiskFisk33 on Sun, 25 May 2014, 04:35:18
umm
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Scoox on Mon, 26 May 2014, 11:14:55
Baggage handling staff are morons. One of the reasons I hate flying.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: EvillePanda on Tue, 27 May 2014, 08:48:58
umm

Saw something similar to that.  Watched a baggage handler, in the baggage bay, waiting on the conveyor belt, get impatient and just threw the luggage out on the tarmac.  Not drop.  He chucked that SOB.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jeep on Wed, 28 May 2014, 17:09:12
which delays me a bit on getting content ready for the launch.

I know these things take time... but what's the current guess for starting the crowdfunding? Any chance of previewing the funding levels? I've been lurking and keeping an eye on this for a bit.

Thanks,
-JEEP
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: richie on Sat, 31 May 2014, 12:51:34
Gah can't wait for this to be out ideal keyboard for me especially with the mouse button keys!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Glod on Sun, 01 June 2014, 13:21:37
Will there be any geekhack community test runs before you move to crowd funding. Don't take this the wrong way acid fire, I seriously respect your work, I'm just a little sad that no prototypes ever went out and community feedback gathered. If you haven't noticed you now have members of geekhack mutilating ergo dox pcbs to improve it. People here are desperate for a ergodox successer, including myself though I want to keep my Keycaps and wrist rest.
Title: How to program the key layout?
Post by: yumea on Wed, 04 June 2014, 03:00:06
Since I have recently discovered this awesome keyboard project, I have been searching through the posts, but have not caught any hint about how to program its layout - maybe I have missed it, and I am not experienced in keyboard creation.
Can I use the ergodox layout creator or would I have to write any layout file by myself?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: EvillePanda on Wed, 04 June 2014, 08:47:28
Someone, if not AcidFire will probably have a layout creator ready to go by the time the keyboard is released.

Which reminds me.  How close are we to lift off?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 04 June 2014, 17:53:59
Will there be any geekhack community test runs before you move to crowd funding. Don't take this the wrong way acid fire, I seriously respect your work, I'm just a little sad that no prototypes ever went out and community feedback gathered. If you haven't noticed you now have members of geekhack mutilating ergo dox pcbs to improve it. People here are desperate for a ergodox successer, including myself though I want to keep my Keycaps and wrist rest.
Fear not, there are still plans for community feedback. I'm currently about halfway through designing what should be the final injection molded cases, which did require a bit of a tweak to the PCBs (already done). On the current 3D printer I have access to, it'd take about 2 days worth of time to print out all the parts, and since I'm using a machine without dissolvable support material, they'll be a bit rough in some spots. When I have a final, working prototype that I feel confident in, the selected beta testers will be notified and I'll begin printing & packing units to go out. While that is happening, the campaign will go up and when funding is complete (fingers crossed), the beta testers will be the first to get preproduction cases to test out (along with those who purchase at a particular reward level). I won't order a full run for the cases until I've received enough feedback from the beta units.

Key caps you should be able to keep without issue, tho the numbers are a bit different than an Ergodox:

22x 1.5u
62x 1u

I'm not sure how your wrist rest will fit (haven't checked the dimensions) but it should be pretty close.

Since I have recently discovered this awesome keyboard project, I have been searching through the posts, but have not caught any hint about how to program its layout - maybe I have missed it, and I am not experienced in keyboard creation.
Can I use the ergodox layout creator or would I have to write any layout file by myself?
Someone, if not AcidFire will probably have a layout creator ready to go by the time the keyboard is released.

Which reminds me.  How close are we to lift off?
Neither, by the time the board is delivered to backers config software will have been written to make it easy to manage. We're currently looking at doing it in java as it seems to be the safest way to deliver cross platform but if there are other/better suggestions we're totally open to it. And of course with it being open source, I fully expect to see alternatives to what we provide as well ;)

Question for when the kickstarter (crowdsupply?) goes up;

Will there be an option without keycaps, in case someone has a set they'd like to use instead?
Yup, they'll be a couple of DIY options. On some solid advice I've received, only the DIY kit will have the option to skip the keycaps during the CrowdSupply campaign and I plan to offer assembled versions without caps down the road.

******************************************

Now, onto the campaign launch. Currently I had targeted to have everything ready to go before the 15th of this month, however between the acrylic units being damaged and some very exciting developments with the case design, I'm pushing it back a bit with a projected launch date of July 1st.

So why is this new case design so important, you may ask? If everything continues along the path it's currently on, I should be able to offer all three configurations in the box, as well as keep the adjustability I've been aiming for all these months :D As I hope you can imagine, this is exciting as it means no waiting for the extra designs, as well as reducing production costs & complications on our side.

And since I've been dropping hints here and there about something else we're working on, I have some equally exciting news. I've been in touch with the fine folks at Matias, and we're currently working on a Matias produced, Cherry MX compatible switch. The aim is to launch with equivalents to the Blue & Brown switch, with other options to follow shortly after. These switches have a couple of long standing community requests as well (can't say any more for the time being). This development leads to three more announcements:

1) Switch availability
These custom switches will be made available to the community at either Matias' current switch price or a little more (we're still looking to nail it down). For those of you who don't know, you can currently get Matias switches for about 200/$50 ;)

2) RGB
While it won't be a part of the initial campaign (feature creep!), I'll be ordering these Matias switches in clear, allowing me to develop full RGB boards without having to worry about the Cherry MX versions.


3) Pricing
Unless something changes drastically, I'm looking at two price points.
 - DIY - $170
 - Assembled - $200
Yes, both of those include switches and laser etched keycaps :D

These are the prices the campaign will launch with, however the campaign price will also have the shipping cost built in ($20).

Lots more to come!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Wed, 04 June 2014, 19:01:43
Great news acidfire, thanks for the update!

I've forgotten, did you say that these would be available with MX Clears?

Also, what kind of keycaps to you intend them to come with? I'm personally very partial to cylindrical caps, I'm loving the DCS caps that just arrived for my ergodox!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kittykatmax on Wed, 04 June 2014, 19:55:47
 /squeals like a school girl

Awesome stuff!!!!!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: sordna on Wed, 04 June 2014, 22:33:04
Nice! Thanks for the update!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: conandy on Wed, 04 June 2014, 23:06:55
Awesome news!  Love to hear the dulcet tones of progress being made!  Makes me glad I passed on this last Ergodox massdrop.

T

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: conandy on Wed, 04 June 2014, 23:08:20
Awesome news!  Love to hear the dulcet tones of progress being made!  Makes me glad I passed on this last Ergodox massdrop. 

The pricing you are proposing is awesome! 

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jeep on Thu, 05 June 2014, 00:04:22
Cool! Glad to hear about the progress. I'm excited for this to come out. I wish I'd skipped on the last ergodox, but, oh well.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: yumea on Thu, 05 June 2014, 06:01:46
These are really awesome news!! When will the "order" button appear! ;)

Since I have recently discovered this awesome keyboard project, I have been searching through the posts, but have not caught any hint about how to program its layout - maybe I have missed it, and I am not experienced in keyboard creation.
Can I use the ergodox layout creator or would I have to write any layout file by myself?
Someone, if not AcidFire will probably have a layout creator ready to go by the time the keyboard is released.

Which reminds me.  How close are we to lift off?
Neither, by the time the board is delivered to backers config software will have been written to make it easy to manage. We're currently looking at doing it in java as it seems to be the safest way to deliver cross platform but if there are other/better suggestions we're totally open to it. And of course with it being open source, I fully expect to see alternatives to what we provide as well ;)

Will this config software enable it to create a custom layout with several layers and corresponding (non-standard) modifier keys? I would like to set up an adjusted version of the Flux1.01 layout (http://wiki.neo-layout.org/wiki/Flux1.01 - basically the same like http://neo-layout.org/, which has 6 layers) on your fantastic keyboard creation.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: wasabah on Thu, 05 June 2014, 06:32:08
Woohoo, sounds awesome!! Man, I can't wait! :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: EvillePanda on Thu, 05 June 2014, 08:44:18
Very exciting.  I look forward to the launch.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Howler on Thu, 05 June 2014, 11:23:54
Great news! I can't wait for the launch. Been very hard to turn down the last ergo massdrop, but I really like what you have been doing with this one. Love open source; Would definitely like to write some software for it (dynamic backlight control? =) ).

Will you be releasing the 3d files for the cases? At least the stl files, so those of us with printers can print our own case. Of course the full part files would be better so we could modify to our heart's content without starting from scratch.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: domoaligato on Thu, 05 June 2014, 11:27:16
Will the plates use the removable switch top design?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: robotswillkillyou on Thu, 05 June 2014, 13:36:59
I am a long time lurker on geekhack, but i made an account just for this one.
I am mad interested in this project and i wanted to express my support. i'd buy one immediately.
reaaally good job!

p.s.: hello everybody btw.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: yumea on Thu, 05 June 2014, 14:35:06
I am a long time lurker on geekhack, but i made an account just for this one.
I am mad interested in this project and i wanted to express my support. i'd buy one immediately.
reaaally good job!

p.s.: hello everybody btw.

i am just same
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: JackMills on Thu, 05 June 2014, 14:55:56
I am a long time lurker on geekhack, but i made an account just for this one.
I am mad interested in this project and i wanted to express my support. i'd buy one immediately.
reaaally good job!

p.s.: hello everybody btw.

i am just same

I guess there are more lurkers becoming active because of their anticipation for this keboard. What can I say, I am the same too.
I am waiting with the purchase of an ErgoDox because I want to see what this will be like. I even have used my daily email to subscribe to the crowd suply, which I rarely do, just to make sure I don't miss any news.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: nalui333 on Thu, 05 June 2014, 19:37:48
Another lurker vote ... waiting ...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: etd on Fri, 06 June 2014, 02:30:04
Hello AcidFire,
your image at https://www.crowdsupply.com/multiplxd/axios-keyboard - I see there 57x1u + 21x1.5u and you are mentioning "22x 1.5u + 62x 1u" and "Lots more to come!"...

How the final layout looks like - is it splittable or even with tenting thumb clusters?
If not, will it be possible to disassemble it in a way allowing use in such alternative casing?

I'm looking forward to crowdsupply campaign, but can't wait! :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 06 June 2014, 16:07:47
Great news acidfire, thanks for the update!

I've forgotten, did you say that these would be available with MX Clears?

Also, what kind of keycaps to you intend them to come with? I'm personally very partial to cylindrical caps, I'm loving the DCS caps that just arrived for my ergodox!
That was the plan originally, however because we're no long going with Cherry MX and using the custom designed Matias Switches, technically clears won't be available with the launch, but you can always order it without switches and add your own. There will be a version of the Clears in this new switch design as well but not for launch. (Might be a stretch goal)


Will this config software enable it to create a custom layout with several layers and corresponding (non-standard) modifier keys? I would like to set up an adjusted version of the Flux1.01 layout (http://wiki.neo-layout.org/wiki/Flux1.01 - basically the same like http://neo-layout.org/, which has 6 layers) on your fantastic keyboard creation.
Yes. The only limit to the number layers will be the size of the SD card. Currently we're looking at including 2-4gb.

Great news! I can't wait for the launch. Been very hard to turn down the last ergo massdrop, but I really like what you have been doing with this one. Love open source; Would definitely like to write some software for it (dynamic backlight control? =) ).

Will you be releasing the 3d files for the cases? At least the stl files, so those of us with printers can print our own case. Of course the full part files would be better so we could modify to our heart's content without starting from scratch.
Yup, both the solidworks parts & assemblies as well as stl files.

Will the plates use the removable switch top design?
Thats the plan currently, but as with everything I can't promise it because I don't know how it'll play out with the injection molding.

Hello AcidFire,
your image at https://www.crowdsupply.com/multiplxd/axios-keyboard - I see there 57x1u + 21x1.5u and you are mentioning "22x 1.5u + 62x 1u" and "Lots more to come!"...

How the final layout looks like - is it splittable or even with tenting thumb clusters?
If not, will it be possible to disassemble it in a way allowing use in such alternative casing?

I'm looking forward to crowdsupply campaign, but can't wait! :)
Well, since I haven't put up anything to actually look at lately, I think it's time to remedy that:
This is what one of the thumb clusters looks like fresh off the printer, note all the support material that I had to cut off:
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-01.jpg)

But more importantly, with this new design, I'm able to satisfy the request for both split designs as well as joined boards, in both flat and adjustable packages, all with a few connecting parts:
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-05.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-06.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-04.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-03.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-07.jpg)
Since the bed on the 3D printer I currently have isn't big enough to print the top plates as a single peice, here are some of the laser cut plates for reference. Notice that there is no border to the case, it stops at the edge of the keycaps (or where they will be ;) ). We're expecting upgrade parts to the printer next week so I'll be able to print a full size complete model.
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-07.jpg)
And this is what the connection points look like:
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-08.jpg)

There is definitely room for improvement, but I'm loving where the design is at now, especially since this revision comes closer to being able to address more concerns/requests than anything I've done previously.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: sordna on Fri, 06 June 2014, 17:07:25
Looks awesome! Thanks for the photos.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: QuadGMoto on Fri, 06 June 2014, 17:29:39
That was the plan originally, however because we're no long going with Cherry MX and using the custom designed Matias Switches, technically clears won't be available with the launch, but you can always order it without switches and add your own. There will be a version of the Clears in this new switch design as well but not for launch. (Might be a stretch goal)


This concerns me a bit, since Ergo Clears are what I'm after. (Or at least that feel.) Could you elaborate a bit?


How will the Matias switches compare? Are they like the traditional ALPS switches in feel and weight? (The Apple Extended Keyboard used ALPS switches. They used to be my favorites, but now I prefer the lighter weight of the Blues I'm using, but I want that weight in Clears. I think I would be happy—possibly even more happy—with the ALPS feel in the lighter weight. Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to try the Matias switches yet.)


Can the spring be swapped out like the MX switches? Can the same springs be used?


What effect will this have on key caps? Will they work with MX caps, or will ALPS connectors be necessary? If the latter, will custom layouts be possible?


Sorry for the grilling, but a change in your plans requires a change in mine.  :-[
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 06 June 2014, 17:49:50
Assuming by “custom designed Matias switches”, AcidFire means this kind (http://matias.ca/switches/quiet/)...

This concerns me a bit, since Ergo Clears are what I'm after. (Or at least that feel.) Could you elaborate a bit?
Personally, I think Matias switches are nicer than “ergo clear” MX switches, with a similar general concept (very tactile switch without too much sound). They might be slightly more force to actuate, but the feel is much smoother, and they’re more tactile (and the tactility is crisper).

Quote
How will the Matias switches compare? Are they like the traditional ALPS switches in feel and weight? (The Apple Extended Keyboard used ALPS switches...)
The Matias switches take slightly more force to actuate than the Alps switches in Apple’s old keyboards; they’re pretty similar in feel to good-condition clicky white Alps switches, if you’ve used those.

Quote
Can the spring be swapped out like the MX switches? Can the same springs be used?
Yes, but there aren’t too many ready sources of replacement springs; they’re not the same type as Cherry MX switches use.

Quote
What effect will this have on key caps? Will they work with MX caps, or will ALPS connectors be necessary? If the latter, will custom layouts be possible?
Matias switches use Alps-mount keycaps. They won‘t work with MX caps unless you have some kind of plastic adapters (while this is possible, it would increase the key height by quite a bit).

I’ll leave AcidFire to answer the rest.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: domoaligato on Fri, 06 June 2014, 18:05:46
mx compatible matias switches that support rgb and mx keycaps.

Does this mean that the switch soldering legs/mounts are the same? (Assumption from saying we could swap the matias switches for ergo clears if we wanted later.)

Take my money :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: davkol on Sat, 07 June 2014, 02:10:12
On one hand, it's pretty interesting news. On the other hand, it got me thinking... I'm not a fan of Alps-like switches. Quite the contrary, actually. I love #vintage linear Cherry MX. That being said, the PCB will come with presoldered SMD diodes out of the box, right? The things is, will it support MX switches with integrated diodes (i.e. will there be holes for those pins)?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: JackMills on Sat, 07 June 2014, 14:06:25
I'm hoping that the custom Matias switches will resemble their Quiet Click switches, I find the quietness/tactility balance nice (especially because I am intending to use it in an open-office environment)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: xman on Sun, 08 June 2014, 01:12:23
Will the plates use the removable switch top design?
Thats the plan currently, but as with everything I can't promise it because I don't know how it'll play out with the injection molding.

      AcidFire, in your initial thread starter post you said:
"... searching for a keyboard solution to my pain in my wrists."
Mentioning that as a reminder of what started all of this: pain.
Some of us are pushed by pain towards the adjustability of MX switches,
which need to have their switch tops opened to be adjusted.
Some of us need a keyboard that easily allows that.
The following Bottom Line is my opinion:
It's really important to have a removable MX switch top design.

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: MuadDirac on Sun, 08 June 2014, 17:21:15
Some of us are pushed by pain towards the adjustability of MX switches,
which need to have their switch tops opened to be adjusted.
Some of us need a keyboard that easily allows that.
The following Bottom Line is my opinion:
It's really important to have a removable MX switch top design.

Unless I'm mistaken, alps (and presumably matias) switches can be opened and the springs replaced just like MX. But regardless I'd expect hand position to have a far greater affect on pain than actuation force.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 09 June 2014, 11:02:46
Ok, I need to clarify on the switches. they are not ALPS switches, they are a Cherry MX compatible that Wil be produced by Matias. That means the same pinning, the same dimensions and the same stem as a Cherry MX. it also means the springs are replaceable just like a Cherry MX as well.

a dressing the Ergo Clears, are you talking about straight clear switches or modified? one of the advantages of this move is the ability to do spring and stem combinations the community has been asking for at a much lower volume than what Cherry has asked for in the past.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: QuadGMoto on Mon, 09 June 2014, 11:09:49
a dressing the Ergo Clears, are you talking about straight clear switches or modified? one of the advantages of this move is the ability to do spring and stem combinations the community has been asking for at a much lower volume than what Cherry has asked for in the past.


I was expecting stock Cherry Clears either as an available option, or a separate purchase to populate the board. So I already bought springs as part of a group buy a couple of months ago. (Though I'm still anxiously looking for The_Beast to sell some switch opening tools.) So if you use Matias' MX compatible version of the stock Clears, that's fine with me.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: davkol on Mon, 09 June 2014, 11:16:44
Ergo Clears are clears with a lighter spring (often 62g or more to prevent sticking, but all sorts of springs, including 55g or 67g, are used).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Naed on Mon, 09 June 2014, 12:02:07
Ok, I need to clarify on the switches. they are not ALPS switches, they are a Cherry MX compatible that Wil be produced by Matias. That means the same pinning, the same dimensions and the same stem as a Cherry MX. it also means the springs are replaceable just like a Cherry MX as well.

a dressing the Ergo Clears, are you talking about straight clear switches or modified? one of the advantages of this move is the ability to do spring and stem combinations the community has been asking for at a much lower volume than what Cherry has asked for in the past.

Above and beyond (as usual  :p)

Thank you for sticking with your project :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: sordna on Mon, 09 June 2014, 14:40:34
Ok, I need to clarify on the switches. they are not ALPS switches, they are a Cherry MX compatible that Wil be produced by Matias. That means the same pinning, the same dimensions and the same stem as a Cherry MX. it also means the springs are replaceable just like a Cherry MX as well.

Will your keyboards have a plate to mount the switches, and if so, will the switch openings have the necessary "phantom" cutouts so the switches can be opened up without desoldering?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 09 June 2014, 17:06:35
      AcidFire, in your initial thread starter post you said:
"... searching for a keyboard solution to my pain in my wrists."
Mentioning that as a reminder of what started all of this: pain.
Some of us are pushed by pain towards the adjustability of MX switches,
which need to have their switch tops opened to be adjusted.
Some of us need a keyboard that easily allows that.
The following Bottom Line is my opinion:
It's really important to have a removable MX switch top design.
Will your keyboards have a plate to mount the switches, and if so, will the switch openings have the necessary "phantom" cutouts so the switches can be opened up without desoldering?

Currently, the design features a bottom case and a top plate with no lip, similar to Corsair's K series. Not only does this simplify the manfacturing, but it also makes it easier to stack different key layouts closer together. This was done specifically in response to feedback from those with smaller hands.

 Up until now, I hadn't prioritized the cutouts for the top removal but xman makes an excellent point, this board is all about finding your comfort, and that includes the switches. I've added them to a new model of the switch top I'll be running off the 3D printer to test for rigidity, however dimensionally there seems to be enough plastic between them to be solid.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 09 June 2014, 17:19:30
Ok, I need to clarify on the switches. they are not ALPS switches, they are a Cherry MX compatible that Wil be produced by Matias. That means the same pinning, the same dimensions and the same stem as a Cherry MX. it also means the springs are replaceable just like a Cherry MX as well.
Is there any more information available about these switches? It sounds like they’re clone Cherry MX switches, which Matias is handling the manufacturing for... have they announced anything about this publicly? Do you know whether the switches are internally (nearly) identical to MX switches, or are they internally set up differently, and only compatible in pinout, outer housing dimensions, and keycap mount?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: EvillePanda on Mon, 09 June 2014, 17:25:04
      AcidFire, in your initial thread starter post you said:
"... searching for a keyboard solution to my pain in my wrists."
Mentioning that as a reminder of what started all of this: pain.
Some of us are pushed by pain towards the adjustability of MX switches,
which need to have their switch tops opened to be adjusted.
Some of us need a keyboard that easily allows that.
The following Bottom Line is my opinion:
It's really important to have a removable MX switch top design.
Will your keyboards have a plate to mount the switches, and if so, will the switch openings have the necessary "phantom" cutouts so the switches can be opened up without desoldering?

Currently, the design features a bottom case and a top plate with no lip, similar to Corsair's K series. Not only does this simplify the manfacturing, but it also makes it easier to stack different key layouts closer together. This was done specifically in response to feedback from those with smaller hands.

 Up until now, I hadn't prioritized the cutouts for the top removal but xman makes an excellent point, this board is all about finding your comfort, and that includes the switches. I've added them to a new model of the switch top I'll be running off the 3D printer to test for rigidity, however dimensionally there seems to be enough plastic between them to be solid.

Yay! Keyboards for tiny hands!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 09 June 2014, 17:29:57
Ok, I need to clarify on the switches. they are not ALPS switches, they are a Cherry MX compatible that Wil be produced by Matias. That means the same pinning, the same dimensions and the same stem as a Cherry MX. it also means the springs are replaceable just like a Cherry MX as well.
Is there any more information available about these switches? It sounds like they’re clone Cherry MX switches, which Matias is handling the manufacturing for... have they announced anything about this publicly? Do you know whether the switches are internally (nearly) identical to MX switches, or are they internally set up differently, and only compatible in pinout, outer housing dimensions, and keycap mount?
No, much of this is in direct response to questions/concerns from me. The switches are still very early in the design stage, but from what I understand they'll be very close to the Cherry mechanically, with some much needed modifications that Cherry has been lacking since the start. As I've mentioned before, I can't say more past that at this time but know that if the Matias produced switches aren't up to snuff (and I seriously doubt that'll be a problem) I have a backup plan in place.

Edit:
Also, I keep forgetting to mention that the new case design for the main clusters supports a 1/4" 20 thread, which should make them easy to mount. Would that work for those of you looking to mount them to things like chairs?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 09 June 2014, 18:09:23
The switches are still very early in the design stage, ...
If they’re currently very early in the design phase, I’m amazed that apparently the plan is to ramp up production in the near future. I would have expected figuring out the design/tooling/supply chain issues for a new type of keyswitch to take at least several months.

Also, it seems weird to base a switch on Cherry MX. I guess that’s where the money currently is, but Cherry MX seems like a pretty flawed switch in many ways. It seems like you’d get a better typing experience (either for linear or tactile switches) by starting with a different basic design (for example, I’d love to see someone try to copy SMK switches (http://deskthority.net/wiki/SMK_second_generation) and make some variants of that design with a bit longer travel, slightly higher actuation point, and a few varieties of weights and tactile response). Then again, I guess MX switches are well-known, with lots of options for keycaps. I’m especially surprised because Matias himself has gone on record a few times bad-mouthing MX switches.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 09 June 2014, 18:22:19
The switches are still very early in the design stage, ...
If they’re currently very early in the design phase, I’m amazed that apparently the plan is to ramp up production in the near future. I would have expected figuring out the design/tooling/supply chain issues for a new type of keyswitch to take at least several months.

Also, it seems weird to base a switch on Cherry MX. I guess that’s where the money currently is, but Cherry MX seems like a pretty flawed switch in many ways. It seems like you’d get a better typing experience (either for linear or tactile switches) by starting with a different basic design. Then again, I guess MX switches are well-known, with lots of options for keycaps. I’m especially surprised because Matias himself has gone on record a few times bad-mouthing MX switches.

The majority of the run up time is the design, since Matias would be using their existing manufacturing process to produce said switches. This would run in parallel with my own development/production timeline for the boards themselves.

In all honesty, I'd actually just like to switch to the Matias/ALPs and be done with it. They're easier to design and develop for, including custom keycaps, not to mention cheaper. It also helps that Matias loves this stuff and are awesome to work with. While the Cherry MX is flawed, it's also the most common and ignoring that can push something like this into relative obscurity, which can also affect the pricing (lower lot production = higher CPU). Again, this wasn't Matias' idea, but purely my concern based on exposure/familiarity w/ Cherry not only in this community but in general. It's very expensive unfortunately for a startup to support multiple product lines. 
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: conandy on Mon, 09 June 2014, 18:37:23
I'm all for trying the Matias switches.  I ran by a local Microcenter to try out the apple Matias keyboard they had, and have to say I like them.  Think they were the quiet clicky ones.  The price is right, and Matias as a company seems like a better match for a small startup production run than Cherry, based on Acidfire's feedback on how many switches Cherry insists upon selling at a time.  Go for the Matias.  I'm game!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Mon, 09 June 2014, 18:46:43
I'm also cautiously optimistic about trying out Matias switches. My favorite switch so far has been Cherry MX Clears, but Matias quiet clicky's sound similar and very good from all the descriptions that I've read.

I must say, the blue prototypes with the tiltable thumb clusters really look great. I can't wait to see the finished product! Also it's good that Acidfire has thought about mounting options with the screw holes. I can finally create my Emperor chair!! My girlfriend will be ecstatic to have this in the living room! :rolleyes:

[attach=1]
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: madderoftime on Mon, 09 June 2014, 19:00:29
I'm also cautiously optimistic about trying out Matias switches. My favorite switch so far has been Cherry MX Clears, but Matias quiet clicky's sound similar and very good from all the descriptions that I've read.

I must say, the blue prototypes with the tiltable thumb clusters really look great. I can't wait to see the finished product! Also it's good that Acidfire has thought about mounting options with the screw holes. I can finally create my Emperor chair!! My girlfriend will be ecstatic to have this in the living room! :rolleyes:

(Attachment Link)

Now that chair is awesome.  :eek:
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Mon, 09 June 2014, 19:24:56
Now that chair is awesome.  :eek:

Yes, only the price is not so awesome...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 09 June 2014, 20:12:25
As mentioned previously, something I was aiming for was the lack of borders between keys, like so:
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-09.jpg)
Both the thumbs and main clusters sport this design. Also, I've come to realize as well that it may be possible to upgrade to a curved/bowl shape on the current design down the road. When I get some free time (hah!) I'll be trying to design some test peices to see how it works out.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: eviltobz on Tue, 10 June 2014, 03:11:48
ooooh, curves? now we're talking :)
the one thing that my kinesis has over my dox is the 3d-ness. it just feels that much easier to reach the bottom row of keys. get some shaping action going on there and you're getting into the territory of being the ideal keyboard. well, maybe apart from the datahand ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Tue, 10 June 2014, 03:16:24
Also, I've come to realize as well that it may be possible to upgrade to a curved/bowl shape on the current design down the road.
Are you just going to hand wire those, or what?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: davkol on Tue, 10 June 2014, 03:16:54
Curved keywells are tricky. Bottom row easier to reach with the four fingers comes at the cost of being able to press those keys with palms or thumbs... and it makes the keyboard bulky.

Something like Model M's curved backplate wouldn't hurt, but PCBs and their price...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 10 June 2014, 12:34:06
ooooh, curves? now we're talking :)
the one thing that my kinesis has over my dox is the 3d-ness. it just feels that much easier to reach the bottom row of keys. get some shaping action going on there and you're getting into the territory of being the ideal keyboard. well, maybe apart from the datahand ;)

Also, I've come to realize as well that it may be possible to upgrade to a curved/bowl shape on the current design down the road.
Are you just going to hand wire those, or what?

Curved keywells are tricky. Bottom row easier to reach with the four fingers comes at the cost of being able to press those keys with palms or thumbs... and it makes the keyboard bulky.

Something like Model M's curved backplate wouldn't hurt, but PCBs and their price...

TBH I have a couple of differing ideas about how to wire it, but hand wiring wouldn't be one of them as the labor would just make it too costly. And the curved well versions would definitely not be travel friendly, but from what I've had my hands on with a kinesis & a maltron it would definitely be worthwhile for the desktop.

Now I do have an opinion question for those of you looking to either assemble your own or are looking to buy the kit to hack it. I've been looking at the interconnect options between the adjustable pieces, and I can either stay with the 2mm connectors which have some issues (right angle females break exceptionally easy) and are a bit more labor intensive to produce and relatively bulky, or FPC cables & connectors which are thinner and tend to be easier to manage in a smaller case which also lets me design it a bit slimmer and makes it easier to take the casing apart. It also means that when you don't opt for things like the f-row addon that there is a much smaller hole in the case. They're also easier to assemble (with the right locking connector). Originally, the 2mm connectors were selected for height and the fact that because they're through hole its still easy to solder to them. The FPC cables on the other hand would require no soldering but aren't breadboard/hacker friendly. To counter that, I'd look at offering a "hacker" kit that would include breakouts for the FPC cables to standard 0.1" spacing, aiming for a cost around 10-20 depending on what would be included (breakouts, extra cables of different lengths, etc). Thoughts?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: davkol on Tue, 10 June 2014, 12:58:34
This might be a dumb idea, but what about something like pigtails? I'm just trying to think outside the box...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: QuadGMoto on Tue, 10 June 2014, 13:30:16
Now I do have an opinion question for those of you looking to either assemble your own or are looking to buy the kit to hack it. I've been looking at the interconnect options between the adjustable pieces, and I can either stay with the 2mm connectors which have some issues (right angle females break exceptionally easy) and are a bit more labor intensive to produce and relatively bulky, or FPC cables & connectors which are thinner and tend to be easier to manage in a smaller case which also lets me design it a bit slimmer and makes it easier to take the casing apart. It also means that when you don't opt for things like the f-row addon that there is a much smaller hole in the case. They're also easier to assemble (with the right locking connector). Originally, the 2mm connectors were selected for height and the fact that because they're through hole its still easy to solder to them. The FPC cables on the other hand would require no soldering but aren't breadboard/hacker friendly. To counter that, I'd look at offering a "hacker" kit that would include breakouts for the FPC cables to standard 0.1" spacing, aiming for a cost around 10-20 depending on what would be included (breakouts, extra cables of different lengths, etc). Thoughts?


It seems to me that the vast majority (98.8%+ ?) of your customers will not do the level of hardware hacking that the 2mm connector would benefit. IMHO, the higher reliability option with the extra cost "hacker kit" would likely make the most people happy.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: sm31 on Tue, 10 June 2014, 15:20:13
I've come to realize as well that it may be possible to upgrade to a curved/bowl shape on the current design down the road. When I get some free time (hah!) I'll be trying to design some test peices to see how it works out.

Does "down the road" suggest after the forthcoming campaign? If yes, it might be nice for you to consider a campaign funding option for people primarily interested in a curved keyboard.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 10 June 2014, 17:10:21
This might be a dumb idea, but what about something like pigtails? I'm just trying to think outside the box...
I'm not sure I get what you mean by Pigtails, but I'd guess that you're talking about coiled cables?

It seems to me that the vast majority (98.8%+ ?) of your customers will not do the level of hardware hacking that the 2mm connector would benefit. IMHO, the higher reliability option with the extra cost "hacker kit" would likely make the most people happy.
I've been thinking about this more and more, and I think you're right it'll strike the right balance for now. good thing I haven't submitted my board files yet ;)

I've come to realize as well that it may be possible to upgrade to a curved/bowl shape on the current design down the road. When I get some free time (hah!) I'll be trying to design some test peices to see how it works out.

Does "down the road" suggest after the forthcoming campaign? If yes, it might be nice for you to consider a campaign funding option for people primarily interested in a curved keyboard.
Yes, but I'm not sure when down the road. I don't feel comfortable adding an option for something that I'm not entirely sure when it'll enter/finish development, however it seems perfectly reasonable to do a funding campaign for those kits when the time comes.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: davkol on Tue, 10 June 2014, 17:27:36
This might be a dumb idea, but what about something like pigtails? I'm just trying to think outside the box...
I'm not sure I get what you mean by Pigtails, but I'd guess that you're talking about coiled cables?
I was thinking of something like the connector often used for WiFi antennas, example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wi-Fi#mediaviewer/File:RouterBoard_112_with_U.FL-RSMA_pigtail_and_R52_miniPCI_Wi-Fi_card.jpg), but obviously not these, just the mechanism. Can't think of a better example now.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/RouterBoard_112_with_U.FL-RSMA_pigtail_and_R52_miniPCI_Wi-Fi_card.jpg/250px-RouterBoard_112_with_U.FL-RSMA_pigtail_and_R52_miniPCI_Wi-Fi_card.jpg)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: conandy on Tue, 10 June 2014, 20:26:31
As mentioned previously, something I was aiming for was the lack of borders between keys, like so:
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-09.jpg)

Both the thumbs and main clusters sport this design. Also, I've come to realize as well that it may be possible to upgrade to a curved/bowl shape on the current design down the road. When I get some free time (hah!) I'll be trying to design some test peices to see how it works out.

There isn't a lot of plastic left on the edges of those plates.  I'd be afraid those would break pretty easily, especially in a travel situation or when someone starts swapping out keyswitches or even just popping open switches for spring changes.   Keep those safety factors in place!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: sm31 on Wed, 11 June 2014, 07:53:33
Does "down the road" suggest after the forthcoming campaign? If yes, it might be nice for you to consider a campaign funding option for people primarily interested in a curved keyboard.
Yes, but I'm not sure when down the road. I don't feel comfortable adding an option for something that I'm not entirely sure when it'll enter/finish development, however it seems perfectly reasonable to do a funding campaign for those kits when the time comes.

I understand that.

Is it feasible that a curved variant could reuse components from the first campaign?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Scoox on Fri, 13 June 2014, 09:54:03
I am really excited about this project. How sad that the standard QWERTY keyboard has become... well, the standard. It would be so easy for multinational keyboard manufacturers such as Logitech to mass-produce affordable symmetrical layout keyboards and yet they don't, it's so pathetic. I take my hat off to AcidFire and truly hope his keyboard starts a revolution.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: conandy on Fri, 13 June 2014, 11:00:06
I am really excited about this project. How sad that the standard QWERTY keyboard has become... well, the standard. It would be so easy for multinational keyboard manufacturers such as Logitech to mass-produce affordable symmetrical layout keyboards and yet they don't, it's so pathetic. I take my hat off to AcidFire and truly hope his keyboard starts a revolution.

I'm surprised that a nifty company like Matias, who obviously has some great ideas and products, hasn't jumped on this bandwagon yet.  Or even some of the bigger guys like DAS or Leopold or Ducky who obviously cater to the keyboard enthusiast.  From this community it is obvious to see that the "one size fits all" keyboard mentality should become a thing of the past.  But it's all about numbers.  When there are literally millions of people buying the same ****ty qwerty staggered keyboards because that is all they know and they don't know any better, there is no impetus for the big companies to change a thing.  Quite frankly, even the thousands upon thousands of people who are experiencing repetitive motion injuries and carpal tunnel syndrome don't realize how really stupid the standard qwerty keyboard design is in modern day.   I'm preaching to the choir, though, with this audience. 

Projects like the ErgoDox and this one are long overdue.  Unfortunately, even the efforts that have gone before, like Maltron and Kinesis, have been largely relegated to the obscurity of the niche ergonomics market and are only known to those who have already had to get treatment for the poor keyboarding ergonomics left to us by the inventors of the modern typewriter.   

As an engineer it is very frustrating to see the masses out there continue to be duped into using inferior designed products purely for the reason that they are the established norm.  It is an uphill battle. 

Stepping off my soap box now.....

Keep up the great work, Acidfire.  What I like about your efforts here are that you are really trying to make this a production level effort that is customize-able and user configurable.  The opportunities for scaling this project up seem to really be there.  If you end up starting a company that continues to innovate....I'll invest. 
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: madderoftime on Fri, 13 June 2014, 11:38:44
I totally agree. As I sit here on a Kinesis typing this I am realizing that I am part of a niche market. I can't even type on a flat keyboard anymore. I bought the duel legend keys for Dvorak as well. Hard to change when you have to use these for typing for work everyday. The time to change and the drop in performance for your employment is scary. Still even the change of the thumb keys is extraordinary for someone that hurts daily.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: JackMills on Fri, 13 June 2014, 12:43:10
I am really excited about this project. How sad that the standard QWERTY keyboard has become... well, the standard. It would be so easy for multinational keyboard manufacturers such as Logitech to mass-produce affordable symmetrical layout keyboards and yet they don't, it's so pathetic. I take my hat off to AcidFire and truly hope his keyboard starts a revolution.

I'm surprised that a nifty company like Matias, who obviously has some great ideas and products, hasn't jumped on this bandwagon yet.  Or even some of the bigger guys like DAS or Leopold or Ducky who obviously cater to the keyboard enthusiast.  From this community it is obvious to see that the "one size fits all" keyboard mentality should become a thing of the past.  But it's all about numbers.  When there are literally millions of people buying the same ****ty qwerty staggered keyboards because that is all they know and they don't know any better, there is no impetus for the big companies to change a thing.  Quite frankly, even the thousands upon thousands of people who are experiencing repetitive motion injuries and carpal tunnel syndrome don't realize how really stupid the standard qwerty keyboard design is in modern day.   I'm preaching to the choir, though, with this audience. 

Projects like the ErgoDox and this one are long overdue.  Unfortunately, even the efforts that have gone before, like Maltron and Kinesis, have been largely relegated to the obscurity of the niche ergonomics market and are only known to those who have already had to get treatment for the poor keyboarding ergonomics left to us by the inventors of the modern typewriter.   

As an engineer it is very frustrating to see the masses out there continue to be duped into using inferior designed products purely for the reason that they are the established norm.  It is an uphill battle. 

Stepping off my soap box now.....

Keep up the great work, Acidfire.  What I like about your efforts here are that you are really trying to make this a production level effort that is customize-able and user configurable.  The opportunities for scaling this project up seem to really be there.  If you end up starting a company that continues to innovate....I'll invest.
I had a discussion today at work with the company MD about RSI and carpal tunnel syndrome. He didn`t believe a keyboard or mouse has anything to do with it, it`s solely bad posture...just to say that even educated persons can be ignorant on this.
I do find it strange that companies spend dollars on creating ergonomical equipment for the hard labour in their factories, however they find it weird if asked for ergonomical equipment for those who sit at a desk all day.
I work in IT and got a decent chair, but I always get a strange look when I propose something as a Maltron or even a Natural Keyboard 4000, not to say a standing desk.
I applaud this initiative and hope for successful commercialisation of the Axios.
And keep researching and developing... 
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 13 June 2014, 18:19:19

I was thinking of something like the connector often used for WiFi antennas, example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wi-Fi#mediaviewer/File:RouterBoard_112_with_U.FL-RSMA_pigtail_and_R52_miniPCI_Wi-Fi_card.jpg), but obviously not these, just the mechanism. Can't think of a better example now.
ah gotcha. The problem with anything using a connector or connectors on the end is bulk especially since I actually have very little room for cutouts for connectors, hence why I've been taking a hard look at the FPC cabling.

There isn't a lot of plastic left on the edges of those plates.  I'd be afraid those would break pretty easily, especially in a travel situation or when someone starts swapping out keyswitches or even just popping open switches for spring changes.   Keep those safety factors in place!
I've done a number of totally on purpose ( :)) ) drop tests and I have yet to damage the sides of the plates, and thats with using PLA which is a more brittle plastic than ABS. That being said there will still be stress testing once I've gotten the injection molded parts to ensure they'll take the abuse before I sell them. Maybe I'll put a couple of prototypes in a pelican and fly with Alaska again ;).


I understand that.

Is it feasible that a curved variant could reuse components from the first campaign?
That would be the aim, that you could upgrade instead of having to replace.

I totally agree. As I sit here on a Kinesis typing this I am realizing that I am part of a niche market. I can't even type on a flat keyboard anymore. I bought the duel legend keys for Dvorak as well. Hard to change when you have to use these for typing for work everyday. The time to change and the drop in performance for your employment is scary. Still even the change of the thumb keys is extraordinary for someone that hurts daily.
I am really excited about this project. How sad that the standard QWERTY keyboard has become... well, the standard. It would be so easy for multinational keyboard manufacturers such as Logitech to mass-produce affordable symmetrical layout keyboards and yet they don't, it's so pathetic. I take my hat off to AcidFire and truly hope his keyboard starts a revolution.
I'm surprised that a nifty company like Matias, who obviously has some great ideas and products, hasn't jumped on this bandwagon yet.  Or even some of the bigger guys like DAS or Leopold or Ducky who obviously cater to the keyboard enthusiast.  From this community it is obvious to see that the "one size fits all" keyboard mentality should become a thing of the past.  But it's all about numbers.  When there are literally millions of people buying the same ****ty qwerty staggered keyboards because that is all they know and they don't know any better, there is no impetus for the big companies to change a thing.  Quite frankly, even the thousands upon thousands of people who are experiencing repetitive motion injuries and carpal tunnel syndrome don't realize how really stupid the standard qwerty keyboard design is in modern day.   I'm preaching to the choir, though, with this audience. 

Projects like the ErgoDox and this one are long overdue.  Unfortunately, even the efforts that have gone before, like Maltron and Kinesis, have been largely relegated to the obscurity of the niche ergonomics market and are only known to those who have already had to get treatment for the poor keyboarding ergonomics left to us by the inventors of the modern typewriter.   

As an engineer it is very frustrating to see the masses out there continue to be duped into using inferior designed products purely for the reason that they are the established norm.  It is an uphill battle. 

Stepping off my soap box now.....

Keep up the great work, Acidfire.  What I like about your efforts here are that you are really trying to make this a production level effort that is customize-able and user configurable.  The opportunities for scaling this project up seem to really be there.  If you end up starting a company that continues to innovate....I'll invest. 

I had a discussion today at work with the company MD about RSI and carpal tunnel syndrome. He didn`t believe a keyboard or mouse has anything to do with it, it`s solely bad posture...just to say that even educated persons can be ignorant on this.
I do find it strange that companies spend dollars on creating ergonomical equipment for the hard labour in their factories, however they find it weird if asked for ergonomical equipment for those who sit at a desk all day.
I work in IT and got a decent chair, but I always get a strange look when I propose something as a Maltron or even a Natural Keyboard 4000, not to say a standing desk.
I applaud this initiative and hope for successful commercialisation of the Axios.
And keep researching and developing... 

First, and always, the support of this community means the world to me and these posts always make my day, thank you :D

I think a lot of the reason that up until now companies haven't taken a chance on this sort of thing is potential cost. For my own setup for what I'm doing the budget required is staggering, and I know for a smaller company like Matias it would be difficult to take on as well. Remember as well that most companies buy PCs in a box from places like Dell, and in order for those manufacturers to beat out the competition they have to go as cheap as possible, including a crappy membrane keyboard.

The other major issue is perception. What I've found from the events where people are able to see even the basic layout is how different it looks to a standard keyboard, until you show them that not only is it no different than their regular keyboard, it's also a much more comfortable position. Then the lightbulb clicks on and you can see them really start to think about what a difference it could make in their lives. What I hear quite a bit as well when I show people the Kinesis/Maltron bowl shapes is that it's too intimidating, too scifi, too weird, etc etc. which is also why I'm not starting with a curve, too much of an uphill battle. That's also why I'd like the curve to be something you could upgrade to do the road, make it easier for people to take the first step.

Now, enough with the wordy stuff. While the shape still requires some polish (not so boxy) and I have to design the wrist rest & tenting stand (my gear 2 neo will have to stand in for now), I've finally gotten a rough unit together.

To start, I've made a few changes to the thumb cluster hinges (new on the left, old on the right):
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-15.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-16.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-17.jpg)
so while the previous design allowed for angle & a little distance, this new setup provides, angle, distance & height.

This has culminated into...
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-19.jpg)
Axios Transform!
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-20.jpg)
(The dreamer/masochist in me spent a disturbing amount of time wondering if I could motorize it :p )

Not only is the thumb cluster adjustable, so is the f-row of keys. So you can pack it up flat for travel, and open it up when you get there. Speaking of travel, I know many of you had asked for a solid board in part because you wanted to travel with it. I've also heard concerns about the thickness of it (I've had them myself), so here's a comparison to my QFR TK:
This is the front edge of the QFR TK compared to the Axios (which is uniform in height when flat)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-27.jpg)
While this is the back edge of the QFR, and the Axios comes in at a smaller height.
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-28.jpg)
Also worth noting is that with the exception of the thumb cluster Axios comes in at a slightly shorter depth.
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-29.jpg)

Now for a little hands on.
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-21.jpg)
Reaching for the F row.
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-24.jpg)

And for those of you with smaller hands, I also had my minion at work try it as well.
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-25.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-26.jpg)
Her fingers are more than an inch shorter than mine and she still finds it comfortable (tho it definitely needs the wrist rest).

I'll be ordering new PCBs tonight (need to update the design for the FPC connectors) and spending the weekend working on the tenting, wrist rest and io plates, so hopefully there should be more updates in the next few days.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: brainT on Fri, 13 June 2014, 18:52:34
Wow,I'd buy it!  Truly awesome work!

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: fisofo on Fri, 13 June 2014, 18:53:25
Dude, that looks fantastic. Thanks for posting, I'm super excited about this!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kittykatmax on Fri, 13 June 2014, 20:51:34
Fantastic!   Looks amazing!!!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: EvillePanda on Fri, 13 June 2014, 21:25:10
Gimme!!!!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: QuadGMoto on Fri, 13 June 2014, 22:08:59
What I'm seeing in those pictures is the very reason I'm keeping close tabs on this project. The anticipation is almost palpable.


 :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:


Edit: Is that the final key arrangement?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: plainbriny on Fri, 13 June 2014, 22:10:12
This looks amazing!!
Totally fit my needs.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: JackMills on Sat, 14 June 2014, 02:11:09

Now, enough with the wordy stuff. While the shape still requires some polish (not so boxy) and I have to design the wrist rest & tenting stand (my gear 2 neo will have to stand in for now), I've finally gotten a rough unit together.

To start, I've made a few changes to the thumb cluster hinges (new on the left, old on the right):
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-15.jpg)

Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-16.jpg)

Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-17.jpg)

so while the previous design allowed for angle & a little distance, this new setup provides, angle, distance & height.

This has culminated into...
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-19.jpg)

Axios Transform!
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-20.jpg)

(The dreamer/masochist in me spent a disturbing amount of time wondering if I could motorize it :p )

Not only is the thumb cluster adjustable, so is the f-row of keys. So you can pack it up flat for travel, and open it up when you get there. Speaking of travel, I know many of you had asked for a solid board in part because you wanted to travel with it. I've also heard concerns about the thickness of it (I've had them myself), so here's a comparison to my QFR TK:
This is the front edge of the QFR TK compared to the Axios (which is uniform in height when flat)
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-27.jpg)

While this is the back edge of the QFR, and the Axios comes in at a smaller height.
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-28.jpg)

Also worth noting is that with the exception of the thumb cluster Axios comes in at a slightly shorter depth.
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-29.jpg)


Now for a little hands on.
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-21.jpg)

Reaching for the F row.
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-24.jpg)


And for those of you with smaller hands, I also had my minion at work try it as well.
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-25.jpg)

Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-26.jpg)

Her fingers are more than an inch shorter than mine and she still finds it comfortable (tho it definitely needs the wrist rest).

I'll be ordering new PCBs tonight (need to update the design for the FPC connectors) and spending the weekend working on the tenting, wrist rest and io plates, so hopefully there should be more updates in the next few days.

How many positions does your design allow and how do you lock the positions?

I am looking forward to owning one.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: davkol on Sat, 14 June 2014, 02:36:18
This has culminated into...
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-19.jpg)

Axios Transform!
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-20.jpg)

(The dreamer/masochist in me spent a disturbing amount of time wondering if I could motorize it :p )
<3
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: tups on Sat, 14 June 2014, 04:21:44
This forum seriously needs a +1 button! Amazing piece of work!

Does this mean there is only one design now (no separate flat/travel design)? This looks quite capable. Are the f-keys and thumb cluster removable still? And the diamond-shaped arrow key cluster?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: JackMills on Sat, 14 June 2014, 06:11:02
This forum seriously needs a +1 button! Amazing piece of work!

Does this mean there is only one design now (no separate flat/travel design)? This looks quite capable. Are the f-keys and thumb cluster removable still? And the diamond-shaped arrow key cluster?

If I look at it, the cluster and the f-key row are attached with hex screws, so detaching them shouldn't be a problem.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Sat, 14 June 2014, 11:24:21
Hello everyone... I've also been a lurker for some time and I've just registered to say how impressed and happy I am seeing this project nearing completion.

I'm happy I only discovered the project a couple weeks ago. The wait would have been insane had I seen the Grand Piano last summer. I've been checking this thread for updates several times a day since I found the thread (in fact, I read the entire thread just because...), and I'll buy at least one as soon as it's available...

I've wanted to build an ergonomic keyboard for years, but if electronics and coding isn't a problem, I never found a good solution to create the case/plate (I considered buying a 3D printer, but that's still expensive for not-perfect results). But this project is really, really close to what I dreamed... I just love it.

To be more precise, I intended to use levers instead of "lateral" buttons for the thumbs, but I guess it's a possible hack, I would have loved a "bowl" design (kinesys-style), even if I know it's really difficult to achieve, I would have put an additional row for pinkies and I'm not fond of the "gap" between the inner "arrow" key and the other keys (I prefer the ErgoGP layout by a small margin), but I think using a 1.5u keycap for the arrow can nearly fill this gap.

Still, those are mostly details, it's 95% what I wanted, and so much better than what I could have done (I want a fablab/hacker space in my town!)

I'm eagerly waiting to replace my keyboard, now... and to implement my ideal layout. I intend to develop a configuration tool for this, too, if that can be of any use, should the available one not already allow for any strange ideas I have.

tl;dr : many, many thanks, AcidFire, for all your hard work!

If I look at it, the cluster and the f-key row are attached with hex screws, so detaching them shouldn't be a problem.
Those, definitively. The arrow cluster (TECK-like), on the contrary, would require a different plate and PCB, I think. I guess it could be among the "customize" options, but I'm not sure those will be available at first (?)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: conandy on Sat, 14 June 2014, 12:44:01
Thanks for all the new pics, Acidfire!  This is some serious keyboard porn!  I LOVE the F-key row, and it's even TILTABLE!!  That SO rocks!  And the fact that the thumb cluster has the variable angle is awesome.  Even more awesome is the fact that if I don't like it...I can dismantle the case and rework the position to my liking in my own cobbled case without having to worry about major electronics work.

Money burning a hole in my pocket.  No longer do I have ANY regrets for passing on the last Ergodox drop.  Can't wait. 
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Sun, 15 June 2014, 02:18:57
This forum seriously needs a +1 button! Amazing piece of work!

Does this mean there is only one design now (no separate flat/travel design)? This looks quite capable. Are the f-keys and thumb cluster removable still? And the diamond-shaped arrow key cluster?
Yes, that was the aim with this new revision; to eliminate the need for the separate travel/flat version so that the funding campaign may appeal to more people and not only get us to the funding goal but to some of the extras as well (including bluetooth included in the kits :D).

Also, while the f-row keys won't normally be included with the board to keep the cost down, I will be including them with the kits bought in the funding campaign.

How many positions does your design allow and how do you lock the positions?

I am looking forward to owning one.


Each side of the arms on the thumb cluster allow for 135 degrees of movement with no preset indentations (who am I to decide the right angle for you?). The f-row has a similar range of motion, but will most likely end up a bit more restricted in the final design to protect the FPC cable connecting it to the main case.

The tenting I'm working on allows you to adjust up to an angle of 30 degrees, but I may end up expanding that.

As for locking them, I'm exploring a few options. Right now I'm using a hex driver to tighten them, but I've also tried a couple of versions of thumb screws with varying degrees of success. I've also looked at flip locks but I haven't designed for them before. The hex key gives the best level of comfort when tightening, but I also don't want someone to have to pack a driver with them when they travel. I do have a thought about it I'm going to try modelling for.

Edit: Is that the final key arrangement?
Currently yes but not set in stone, nothing will be finalized or approved for production until I have feedback from the beta testers who will be receiving the first units. Was there a particular concern you have?


Hello everyone... I've also been a lurker for some time and I've just registered to say how impressed and happy I am seeing this project nearing completion.

I'm happy I only discovered the project a couple weeks ago. The wait would have been insane had I seen the Grand Piano last summer. I've been checking this thread for updates several times a day since I found the thread (in fact, I read the entire thread just because...), and I'll buy at least one as soon as it's available...

I've wanted to build an ergonomic keyboard for years, but if electronics and coding isn't a problem, I never found a good solution to create the case/plate (I considered buying a 3D printer, but that's still expensive for not-perfect results). But this project is really, really close to what I dreamed... I just love it.

To be more precise, I intended to use levers instead of "lateral" buttons for the thumbs, but I guess it's a possible hack, I would have loved a "bowl" design (kinesys-style), even if I know it's really difficult to achieve, I would have put an additional row for pinkies and I'm not fond of the "gap" between the inner "arrow" key and the other keys (I prefer the ErgoGP layout by a small margin), but I think using a 1.5u keycap for the arrow can nearly fill this gap.

Still, those are mostly details, it's 95% what I wanted, and so much better than what I could have done (I want a fablab/hacker space in my town!)

I'm eagerly waiting to replace my keyboard, now... and to implement my ideal layout. I intend to develop a configuration tool for this, too, if that can be of any use, should the available one not already allow for any strange ideas I have.

tl;dr : many, many thanks, AcidFire, for all your hard work!

If I look at it, the cluster and the f-key row are attached with hex screws, so detaching them shouldn't be a problem.
Those, definitively. The arrow cluster (TECK-like), on the contrary, would require a different plate and PCB, I think. I guess it could be among the "customize" options, but I'm not sure those will be available at first (?)

Well with the arrow cluster, you can actually get away with a 2u key on the inner one (tho without stabs). An earlier design included 1u instead of the 1.5u for the pinkies, as well as an extra row of keys however it really wasn't comfortable to reach for (and was contrary to the design ethos of trying to reduce travel around the board as much as possible). The lever idea is an interesting one, it makes me think of the Data Hand and would be interesting to try some time :D

Yes, the arrow cluster is part of the current PCB & plate, but there's nothing saying I can't release a version of them (even just the design files) that is similar to the original ergogp layout. Open Source ftw ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Sun, 15 June 2014, 05:51:22
An earlier design included 1u instead of the 1.5u for the pinkies, as well as an extra row of keys however it really wasn't comfortable to reach for (and was contrary to the design ethos of trying to reduce travel around the board as much as possible).
I guess it's a matter of habit... Since there's two lateral rows on traditional keyboards and the return key is actually three rows on the left of the pinker rest key, I don't mind using two rows on both sides of the hand (putting the rarest used one on the most external one, of course). There's usually 31 character keys plus two dead keys for french language, and as a programmer I like my {}[]\ etc. directly available, so I'm always fond of more keys ^_^ It's even worse in japanese, there's 50 (59) keys required just for main characters, and many additional converting keys besides ponctuation marks.

And maybe that's me, but I find keys two rows outside for pinkies on the home row more accessible than the keys two row under the ring fingers, for example. The fact that I've played keyboard instruments may have changed my preferences a bit, though (the layout toos, I'm sometimes using several keys for the same character, using them depending on the current state of the hand... like alternate fingerings with flute. E.g. a distant direct access and a close alt-gr access. On the same idea, I like how punctuation marks followed by an upper case character, such as ? and . are shifted keys and the others, like , ; and : are normal keys on AZERTY keyboards... I used to import belgian azerty keyboards which, I think, are a nice blend between qwerty and azerty)

That being said, that's just a small detail, I just love your work. I couldn't stop myself yesterday evening from tweaking my layout to adapt to those small changes. I'm now ready and eagerly wait to send you money ^_^ A big programmation task probably awaits, though (I need a kind of macro keys aware of previous keystrokes, for example to be able to build a japanese kana layer that doesn't need a driver, sending Hepburn sequences for each kana character. But it's a problematic task : a き press can be translated as 'ki' but if you follow it by ゃ, you need to send backspace then 'kya', the Hepburn sequence for きゃ. Of course, the replacement sequence depends on the previous key. I wasn't expecting to be able to do this with a normal keyboard, but since those kind of keyboards are wonderfully capable of customization...)

Yes, the arrow cluster is part of the current PCB & plate, but there's nothing saying I can't release a version of them (even just the design files) that is similar to the original ergogp layout. Open Source ftw ;)
Yes, another reason to find all this great. But if I can avoid finding someone that'll produce a 4-layers PCB then soldering SMD components, just for a single key position, I'm all for it ^_^
Title: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: daerid on Sun, 15 June 2014, 07:48:57
n/m
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: xman on Sun, 15 June 2014, 08:06:02
                    OK, AcidFire, you win.
After looking at your pictures that you posted Fri, 13 June 2014:
I personally prefer your design over any other split keyboard design
that I've ever seen anywhere.
                   When your keyboard works (with full NKRO) with Plover,
I'm going to have to buy it.
            Can't speak for the other 329 Plover Google Group members,
but I'm guessing I won't be alone.
       Thanks
xman

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/ploversteno/0snNzQ9jtt0

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!aboutgroup/ploversteno

http://stenoknight.com/wiki/Main_Page

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Sun, 15 June 2014, 09:00:23
I'm also a plover group member, and I'm buying one as soon as it's available...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Sun, 15 June 2014, 12:07:37
An earlier design included 1u instead of the 1.5u for the pinkies, as well as an extra row of keys however it really wasn't comfortable to reach for (and was contrary to the design ethos of trying to reduce travel around the board as much as possible).
I guess it's a matter of habit... Since there's two lateral rows on traditional keyboards and the return key is actually three rows on the left of the pinker rest key, I don't mind using two rows on both sides of the hand (putting the rarest used one on the most external one, of course). There's usually 31 character keys plus two dead keys for french language, and as a programmer I like my {}[]\ etc. directly available, so I'm always fond of more keys ^_^ It's even worse in japanese, there's 50 (59) keys required just for main characters, and many additional converting keys besides ponctuation marks.

And maybe that's me, but I find keys two rows outside for pinkies on the home row more accessible than the keys two row under the ring fingers, for example. The fact that I've played keyboard instruments may have changed my preferences a bit, though (the layout toos, I'm sometimes using several keys for the same character, using them depending on the current state of the hand... like alternate fingerings with flute. E.g. a distant direct access and a close alt-gr access. On the same idea, I like how punctuation marks followed by an upper case character, such as ? and . are shifted keys and the others, like , ; and : are normal keys on AZERTY keyboards... I used to import belgian azerty keyboards which, I think, are a nice blend between qwerty and azerty)

That being said, that's just a small detail, I just love your work. I couldn't stop myself yesterday evening from tweaking my layout to adapt to those small changes. I'm now ready and eagerly wait to send you money ^_^ A big programmation task probably awaits, though (I need a kind of macro keys aware of previous keystrokes, for example to be able to build a japanese kana layer that doesn't need a driver, sending Hepburn sequences for each kana character. But it's a problematic task : a き press can be translated as 'ki' but if you follow it by ゃ, you need to send backspace then 'kya', the Hepburn sequence for きゃ. Of course, the replacement sequence depends on the previous key. I wasn't expecting to be able to do this with a normal keyboard, but since those kind of keyboards are wonderfully capable of customization...)

The thing to remember with the extra keys, particularly ones like programmer keys is that on this current revision the second row of 1.5u above the main row is very easily reachable with your thumbs (I know I plan to try putting them there ;) ) so that might work for you as alternative solution.

I find your aim to make something like japanese work within the board instead of on the PC side extremely interesting, in part because it falls in with the direction of the board not requiring support on the PC side to function (also because I love the language). I'll lend you whatever support I can to make it happen and if we can possibly roll these additions into the main firmware release.

Yes, the arrow cluster is part of the current PCB & plate, but there's nothing saying I can't release a version of them (even just the design files) that is similar to the original ergogp layout. Open Source ftw ;)
Yes, another reason to find all this great. But if I can avoid finding someone that'll produce a 4-layers PCB then soldering SMD components, just for a single key position, I'm all for it ^_^

Well the key clusters are only 2 layer, so they're not nearly as expensive or difficult to produce ;) But I don't blame you, SMD work can be a pain in the ass. After the main version is done, I plan to run polls/preorders/group buys for alternative layouts based on user feedback and suggestions. And of course, there's nothing stopping someone else from doing a design for this controller either :D


                    OK, AcidFire, you win.
After looking at your pictures that you posted Fri, 13 June 2014:
I personally prefer your design over any other split keyboard design
that I've ever seen anywhere.
                   When your keyboard works (with full NKRO) with Plover,
I'm going to have to buy it.
            Can't speak for the other 329 Plover Google Group members,
but I'm guessing I won't be alone.
       Thanks
xman

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/ploversteno/0snNzQ9jtt0

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!aboutgroup/ploversteno

http://stenoknight.com/wiki/Main_Page
I'm also a plover group member, and I'm buying one as soon as it's available...

I'm hoping to have NKRO finished before the boards go out to people after the campaign, if not shortly after. I've had a couple of people offer to help with it and so they'll be getting preproduction models first and we'll do what we must because we can (I couldn't resist  :)) )
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: naz on Sun, 15 June 2014, 13:19:32
wow!! this is it! i've looking for a new split keyboard, but none of the currents ones i really like (i play classic guitar, so i got worried when the wrist pain started for using those damn traditional keyboards and mouse all day at the office (i'm an engeneer).:

- ergodox is too big for my hands (about an inch shorter than average)
- maltron is not programable, way too expensive and way too ugly
- advantage kinesis doesn't split, wich is funny since theire slogan is "separation beats splay for comfort", can't really use the space in the middle and doesn't have a proper set of arrows keys (i use those a lot while inputing numbers on excel sheets)
- freestyle2 doesn't have the align columns and uses membrane
- so on and so on....

now acidfire team appear and it looks just perfect (i know you been working on this for about a year now, but i just found this forum about a week ago so it's new to me XD)

so a few question:

is there a release date yet??
where can i sign for the first batch??
do you have a website with news or do you use this forum alone??
will it be a kit like the the ergodox??
do you have a price yet??

Thanks a lot for innovating!
 
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Sun, 15 June 2014, 14:13:36
The thing to remember with the extra keys, particularly ones like programmer keys is that on this current revision the second row of 1.5u above the main row is very easily reachable with your thumbs (I know I plan to try putting them there ;) )
I noticed that, indeed. I placed more modifiers on the thumb clusters, and that freed enough keys to make everything easily reachable. There's more keys reachable than on a classic keyboard, so that's already good.

I find your aim to make something like japanese work within the board instead of on the PC side extremely interesting, in part because it falls in with the direction of the board not requiring support on the PC side to function (also because I love the language).
That's exactly what I thought. That's not a perfect solution, because you still need an IME installed (or a program with integrated japanese support, like JWPCE which can be carried on a USB key). But at least you won't need to install drivers for the keyboard to support kana entering. Just maybe some configuration to set up the henkan & muhenkan keys.

Small configuration tweaks in the keyboard can be done without installing anything, anyway (I even used the capslock / numlock LEDs in the past to send data back to a custom device acting as a fake keyboard for the system). As long as the PC believe you're entering Hepburn sequences, that'll do I think.

But I don't blame you, SMD work can be a pain in the ass.
My friends in a robotic club find SMD "not challenging enough" and are doing BGA soldering now for FPGAs and microcontrollers, using a custom oven. As crazy as it sounds, it (usually) works. So I have some experience in SMD soldering (they design nearly everything this way), but I still don't like it much.

At least, you still see the components... In my lab, diods were packaged in capsules (like drugs) because they were as thin as hairs. I remember trying to find one fallen on the floor, the hell it was! ^_^
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: eviltobz on Sun, 15 June 2014, 15:05:49
...
As for locking them, I'm exploring a few options. Right now I'm using a hex driver to tighten them, but I've also tried a couple of versions of thumb screws with varying degrees of success. I've also looked at flip locks but I haven't designed for them before. The hex key gives the best level of comfort when tightening, but I also don't want someone to have to pack a driver with them when they travel. I do have a thought about it I'm going to try modelling for.
...
in the world of wailing shred guitar we have handy allen key holders like this http://guitarheads.net/products/hardware/misc/allen.html (http://guitarheads.net/products/hardware/misc/allen.html) maybe you can work something like that into the design.

more variations on the theme here: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=guitar+headstock+allen+key&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=oPydU5XPIsH80QX61oDoDQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1753&bih=847 (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=guitar+headstock+allen+key&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=oPydU5XPIsH80QX61oDoDQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1753&bih=847)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: QuadGMoto on Sun, 15 June 2014, 16:37:43
Edit: Is that the final key arrangement?
Currently yes but not set in stone, nothing will be finalized or approved for production until I have feedback from the beta testers who will be receiving the first units. Was there a particular concern you have?


Nope, just anxious to figure out the layout I want to use.  ;D


But now that you ask, I do have a comment, not a complaint.  ;)


I have found that having the navigation keys tucked into that spot has lead to accidents on my TECK. But that has a lot to due with habits that I'm having to change. I expect the Axios layout will lead to even more accidents as I'm climbing the learning curve. There have been times when I've wished they weren't tucked in quite as close or that there was some sort of tactile indication that my fingers were on a navigation button instead of whatever I thought it was.


Do you have a plan for indicator lights? (Caps lock, num lock, something programmed)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jeep on Sun, 15 June 2014, 23:54:41
I think the only way to improve on this for me is to have the key to the right of the arrow keys be a scroll wheel. (As long as I'm greedy, maybe a tilt scroll wheel :) ).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: yumea on Mon, 16 June 2014, 11:34:53
I find your aim to make something like japanese work within the board instead of on the PC side extremely interesting, in part because it falls in with the direction of the board not requiring support on the PC side to function (also because I love the language).
That's exactly what I thought. That's not a perfect solution, because you still need an IME installed (or a program with integrated japanese support, like JWPCE which can be carried on a USB key). But at least you won't need to install drivers for the keyboard to support kana entering. Just maybe some configuration to set up the henkan & muhenkan keys.

Small configuration tweaks in the keyboard can be done without installing anything, anyway (I even used the capslock / numlock LEDs in the past to send data back to a custom device acting as a fake keyboard for the system). As long as the PC believe you're entering Hepburn sequences, that'll do I think.

if you want to write in real japanese, you would want to get kanji and katakana out as well, not only hiragana. for this aim you would need an ime anyway - or program your own equivalent to it, which would be be extremely laborious.
however, a keyboard layout for japanese input is what i am interested in setting up, too. but i am rather tying with the japanese ergonomic m-system layout (http://xahlee.info/kbd/Japan_M-Type_TRON_keyboards.html) to clone it partly on acidfire's keyboard.

additionally to this, like i have mentioned before, i want to use an adjusted version of the flux1.01 layout (http://wiki.neo-layout.org/wiki/Flux1.01 adjusted similar to http://wiki.neo-layout.org/wiki/Ergodox) for german input  - moreover the standard layouts for korean (i guess, this is just qwerty converted by the korean ime into korean) and russian.
i would also like to make an additional (7th) layer for character strings per key (like sending "i n t Space m a i n ( ) Return { Return Return } Uparrow" to speed up programming) in the adjusted flux1.01 layout.
will it be possible to make such a character code string layer - and also create a layout switch key?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kfmfe04 on Mon, 16 June 2014, 12:01:35
I type in Mandarin and Japanese all day long (using pinyin and romanization), so I totally agree with yumea's sentiments...  ...let the IMEs do all the work - typing in CJK languages are complicated enough that programmers have spent tens of thousands of hours to get them to work well - in the present state, it still takes human knowledge of the language to select correct characters even though the software is getting better at guessing: would be backwards to try to re-engineer any of this and load it into firmware, especially given how many languages are out there, and the complexity of each language.

Yumea's is also right about some kind of switch/arrow-keys/wheel which lets you select which layer you are using, but then this begs the use of an LED or some kind of beep-feedback (eg number of beeps?) which tells you which layer you have selected.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Mon, 16 June 2014, 14:00:42
if you want to write in real japanese, you would want to get kanji and katakana out as well, not only hiragana. for this aim you would need an ime anyway - or program your own equivalent to it, which would be be extremely laborious.
Yes, of course. I think I wasn't clear enough.

My idea is quite simple : all computers can produce japanese text using an IME (even without installing anything, I sometimes use programs like JWPCE which has its own IME included, although not as efficient as Mozc e.g.). Using a normal keyboard, you can do this by typing Hepburn sequences with alphanumeric characters.

But I want my keyboard to act as an kana keyboard (kana nyûryoku) WITHOUT requiring to installing a japanese keyboard driver. A key on the keyboard corresponds to a kana (when the kana layer is active), and when you press it, the *keyboard* translate the key into a Hepburn sequence of ASCII keys. So you can use the IME by typing kanas (and still using the IME for kana>kanji translation) but you don't need to type 'k' then 'a' for 'ka', but directly 'ka'. Still, the IME believes you're entering alphanumeric characters on a normal QWERTY keyboard.

Two reasons for typing kanas instead of Hepburns sequences: a lower number of presses are needed (nearly half less) and with an ergonomic layout, 'w', 'k' and 'y' are not the easiest to reach (at least in french) so typing japanese would become more difficult (and I don't want a layer per-language for alphanumeric keys).

Most japanese people use QWERTY to enter kana/kanjis, but that's mostly because (according to japanese people I know):
- the placement of kana keys is awful and inconvenient (and there's not enough reachable keys on a QWERTY keyboard to change this), and some of the most useful kanas are really far from the home row
- the placement itself seems as random as QWERTY (would be interested to know a reason for this placement if there's one besides "historical placement on typewriters"), so it's very difficult to memorize two layouts, especially if there's twice as many keys as A-Z

I knew about TRON keyboards, they're really nice, I even considered buying one (although it's not easy to import them, and even in Japan, they're nowhere to be found in normal shops). But they're usually not cut in half, not (enough) tented to my taste, usually seriously lack keys for a programmer, and most importantly aren't as customizable as keyboards with microcontrollers.

Most probably those ergonomics keyboards have a clever layout (a kana-dvorak of sorts) for kanas I could copy, but I won't try... I don't enter enough japanese, currently, to warrant learning a complex layout. I'll rather have a finger per vowel (i-u-a-e-o) and a row per sound (t, r, n, -, r, s, h, m) plus keys for y*, w*, n and other special keys (henkan, muhenkan, IME control, hiragana/katakana switch, etc.). And a modifier for ° and " (or deadkey, but with thumb clusters, I prefer a modifier). So, easily remembered layout... I've just chosen the position of each vowel/sound depending on the frequency of each kana, so it's already far better than 'normal' kana keyboards in Japan (tried it on AZERTY keyboard, it's efficient, but I lacks some keys on AZERTY so I lack some kanas, and the lack of programmability makes transforming ka + small-ya in kya tricky, although definitively possible).

i would also like to make an additional (7th) layer for character strings per key (like sending "i n t Space m a i n ( ) Return { Return Return } Uparrow" to speed up programming) in the adjusted flux1.01 layout.
will it be possible to make such a character code string layer - and also create a layout switch key?
Definitively. That's macro keys for you (if it's not in the standard configuration program, it'll definitively be possible in the one I'll try to develop). The only issue could be memory, but there should be plently of memory.

I also considered this (I actually have the layer for this ready for C++, Python and even for TeX). But I'm not sure I'll actually do it, since my editor do mostly the same by using a key then a shortcut (two presses, the same as a layer change). The shortcut would be a direct key on the keyboard. The editor seems a better option to me because it's content-aware. Of course, it's less portable, but I travel with my editor on a key anyway (I can't use an editor with different colors, different shortcuts, etc.)


And by the way, I think you can do far more than that with programmable keyboards (in-keyboard copy-paste, keylogging, cryptography, one-time passwords, etc.). I've far more ideas than I have time for those ^_^  AcidFire, I sure have great hopes for firmware hacking with the Atmega ;)


The first one I'll do, though, is creating a "clever close" key: the keyboard remember your last ( [ { and " using a stack, and when you press the "close" key, it types ), ], } or " based on the stack.

So :

fun(table["key"])

can be entered by

f u n ( t a b l e [ " k e y CLOSE CLOSE CLOSE

(I'd like, if possible, to add a small screen displaying the stack state, too, so that I know how many things I still need to close and which one)

Yes, I've done some LISP in the past, maybe that's where I get this idea ^_^
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 16 June 2014, 14:52:54
is there a release date yet??
where can i sign for the first batch??
do you have a website with news or do you use this forum alone??
will it be a kit like the the ergodox??
do you have a price yet??

 
- Still aiming to get the campaign done for the end of the month, but that'll depend on the delivery of the boards.
- You can sign up for notification of the campaign over at CrowdSupply (https://www.crowdsupply.com/multiplxd/axios-keyboard)
- I do have a very negelected website that I'll be working on once the physical side is done to the point I can put a video together. I will also be setting up a support & discussion forum there as well.
- It'll be available both as a kit or preassembled.
- Roughly $170 for the kit, $200 assembled.

I think the only way to improve on this for me is to have the key to the right of the arrow keys be a scroll wheel. (As long as I'm greedy, maybe a tilt scroll wheel :) ).

I have a thought as to where one might fit, but a scroll wheel is a

in the world of wailing shred guitar we have handy allen key holders like this http://guitarheads.net/products/hardware/misc/allen.html (http://guitarheads.net/products/hardware/misc/allen.html) maybe you can work something like that into the design.

more variations on the theme here: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=guitar+headstock+allen+key&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=oPydU5XPIsH80QX61oDoDQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1753&bih=847 (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=guitar+headstock+allen+key&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=oPydU5XPIsH80QX61oDoDQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1753&bih=847)
My thinking was along the same lines but without requiring the hardware. I had a thrustmaster HOTAS setup that you could disconnect with an allen key that was stored in the bottom of the throttle like so:
(http://axios.io/exports/examples/allen-key-example.jpg)

There's enough space in the design so I'll be working on integrating a key for the prototypes to see how it works out.

if you want to write in real japanese, you would want to get kanji and katakana out as well, not only hiragana. for this aim you would need an ime anyway - or program your own equivalent to it, which would be be extremely laborious.
however, a keyboard layout for japanese input is what i am interested in setting up, too. but i am rather tying with the japanese ergonomic m-system layout (http://xahlee.info/kbd/Japan_M-Type_TRON_keyboards.html) to clone it partly on acidfire's keyboard.

additionally to this, like i have mentioned before, i want to use an adjusted version of the flux1.01 layout (http://wiki.neo-layout.org/wiki/Flux1.01 adjusted similar to http://wiki.neo-layout.org/wiki/Ergodox) for german input  - moreover the standard layouts for korean (i guess, this is just qwerty converted by the korean ime into korean) and russian.
Far enough, I'll let Koren take it for a spin on his board and we'll see how it works out.

quote author=yumea link=topic=44940.msg1367439#msg1367439 date=1402936493]
mentioned before, i want to use an adjusted version of the flux1.01 layout (http://wiki.neo-layout.org/wiki/Flux1.01 adjusted similar to http://wiki.neo-layout.org/wiki/Ergodox) for german input  - moreover the standard layouts for korean (i guess, this is just qwerty converted by the korean ime into korean) and russian.
i would also like to make an additional (7th) layer for character strings per key (like sending "i n t Space m a i n ( ) Return { Return Return } Uparrow" to speed up programming) in the adjusted flux1.01 layout.
will it be possible to make such a character code string layer - and also create a layout switch key?
[/quote]
Yes, this should be entirely doable with the macro setup. And you'll be able to create several different types of layer keys:
- Switch (Up/Down)
Fairly self explanatory I think. Cycle up and down through layers
- Toggle
Toggle's a targeted layer on and stays on until released.
- Favorites
Jumps to the assigned layer's position in the layer stack.

My friends in a robotic club find SMD "not challenging enough" and are doing BGA soldering now for FPGAs and microcontrollers, using a custom oven. As crazy as it sounds, it (usually) works. So I have some experience in SMD soldering (they design nearly everything this way), but I still don't like it much.

At least, you still see the components... In my lab, diods were packaged in capsules (like drugs) because they were as thin as hairs. I remember trying to find one fallen on the floor, the hell it was! ^_^
Yeah I just don't like being hunched over while doing it, hard on my back :P And I can only imagine what kind of hell that would be!

I have found that having the navigation keys tucked into that spot has lead to accidents on my TECK. But that has a lot to due with habits that I'm having to change. I expect the Axios layout will lead to even more accidents as I'm climbing the learning curve. There have been times when I've wished they weren't tucked in quite as close or that there was some sort of tactile indication that my fingers were on a navigation button instead of whatever I thought it was.

I don't think they'll be quite as problematic as the wrist supports should lift your hands a bit higher than the TECK does, however it's also possible to use some kind of homing bump or the deep dish keys so you can feel when you hit them.

Do you have a plan for indicator lights? (Caps lock, num lock, something programmed)
Yumea's is also right about some kind of switch/arrow-keys/wheel which lets you select which layer you are using, but then this begs the use of an LED or some kind of beep-feedback (eg number of beeps?) which tells you which layer you have selected.
I'm still looking at where I can possibly get indicator lights on the board, without resorting to using the backlight LEDs as indicators. I'm thinking of tucking them under the arrow keys closer to the thumb cluster on the bottom. Alternatively, I'm also looking at a raised section above the 1.5u keys but that would cause problems with 3D printing the design. Regarding the beep, there is a peizo on the board so that could be used for layer indication as well, but definitely in conjunction with the LEDs as I'm sure those sharing office space would want to turn the beeping off.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Mon, 16 June 2014, 15:44:10
- Still aiming to get the campaign done for the end of the month, but that'll depend on the delivery of the boards.
Nice!

I'm still looking at where I can possibly get indicator lights on the board, without resorting to using the backlight LEDs as indicators.
Additional LEDs are always welcome, but I don't find using backlight LEDs (so there's indeed backlight LEDs for the first version? That's great...) such a bad idea, actually. I can't look check a status light without actually looking at the keyboard if there's several LEDs, but changing the backlight color depending on the layer/status can provide information about the active layer just using the peripheral vision... I think it's one of the useful uses for the backlight, besides just being "cool".

In short, customizing options are great ^_^
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: QuadGMoto on Mon, 16 June 2014, 15:48:53
I'm still looking at where I can possibly get indicator lights on the board, without resorting to using the backlight LEDs as indicators. I'm thinking of tucking them under the arrow keys closer to the thumb cluster on the bottom. Alternatively, I'm also looking at a raised section above the 1.5u keys but that would cause problems with 3D printing the design. Regarding the beep, there is a peizo on the board so that could be used for layer indication as well, but definitely in conjunction with the LEDs as I'm sure those sharing office space would want to turn the beeping off.


Here's a couple of ideas: At the top of the thumb pad. On the inside edge of the main board.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jeep on Mon, 16 June 2014, 21:07:45
Quote
I have a thought as to where one might fit, but a scroll wheel is a

Oh man, left me hanging...

On another note... End of the month!?!? Woo hoo. Excited to see this see this project hit the end zone and see what comes next.

-JEEP
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Larken on Tue, 17 June 2014, 02:49:02
glad to see this come to fruition. amazing work as always, Acidfire.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: vatin on Tue, 17 June 2014, 18:59:31
In the spirit of searching for a better input device and not to derail the thread by any means, are you guys aware of the King's Assembly mouse keyboard combo? Preorder has started already.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: sordna on Tue, 17 June 2014, 20:17:45
Looks like it forces you to type with your hands planted on the device. That's quite bad for RSI. It's a nice concept but primarily a pointing device and not for serious typing in my opinion. I give it points for straight key columns though!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 18 June 2014, 02:21:40
In the spirit of searching for a better input device and not to derail the thread by any means, are you guys aware of the King's Assembly mouse keyboard combo? Preorder has started already.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57497.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54723.0
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: yumea on Wed, 18 June 2014, 10:51:34
Thou shalt have no other keyboard before AcidFire's.
In AcidFire we trust.
;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 18 June 2014, 22:51:08
Quick update for tonight. While it still needs some tweaking, I have the rough design done for the tenting to be built into the casing.

Flat:
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-30.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-33.jpg)

15° incline:
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-31.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-34.jpg)

30° incline:
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-32.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-35.jpg)

This design currently supports between 0-30° inclines.

This plate shares the anchors for the center pieces that allow the main clusters to be connected for a central board as well, and is completely removable. Next up is the wrist rest :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Thu, 19 June 2014, 00:11:05
Needless to say, this looks fantastic, Acidfire!!

I'm very keen for this to come to fruition. I'm in for at least one for sure.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: JackMills on Thu, 19 June 2014, 01:44:40
Does it add to the thickness of the case or did you manage to keep it the same size (referring to an older post where you compared the case to another keyboard)?

Edit: It seems to remain quite the same after taking a better look at the pictures

The more I look at it, the more I wish I had one
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: EvillePanda on Thu, 19 June 2014, 09:10:05
That looks badass.  I'm really excited for this keyboard now.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: conandy on Thu, 19 June 2014, 19:03:50
when the thumb cluster gets attached, I'm a little afraid that is going to get a little tippy towards the middle. Great idea, though, on the lift mechanism.  I have toyed with similar ideas in my head for how to add tenting to a flat split keyboard.   Glad to see someone with the time and facilities to try ideas like that out so quickly.  Let us know how that feels once you have thumb cluster attached and start pounding on the keys.   ;D
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: yakitysax on Thu, 19 June 2014, 20:51:20
Quick update for tonight. While it still needs some tweaking, I have the rough design done for the tenting to be built into the casing.

Flat:
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-30.jpg)

Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-33.jpg)


15° incline:
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-31.jpg)

Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-34.jpg)


30° incline:
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-32.jpg)

Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-35.jpg)


This design currently supports between 0-30° inclines.

This plate shares the anchors for the center pieces that allow the main clusters to be connected for a central board as well, and is completely removable. Next up is the wrist rest :D

That latest keyboard iteration looks amazing. I LOVE how you have implemented the tenting and original grand piano thumb cluster orientation. Can you explain how the thumb cluster achieves the custom angle that is not fixed? I really dig it but I do not see exactly how it works. It looks super smart though.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: pdf on Fri, 20 June 2014, 01:18:07
I'm still looking at where I can possibly get indicator lights on the board, without resorting to using the backlight LEDs as indicators. I'm thinking of tucking them under the arrow keys closer to the thumb cluster on the bottom. Alternatively, I'm also looking at a raised section above the 1.5u keys but that would cause problems with 3D printing the design. Regarding the beep, there is a peizo on the board so that could be used for layer indication as well, but definitely in conjunction with the LEDs as I'm sure those sharing office space would want to turn the beeping off.
Backlight LEDs ought to be fine for this I think, especially if they're RGB.  From what I understand reading through the thread though, we're not going to see RGB/LEDs on the first rev?  Can you expand on your plans for this?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 20 June 2014, 01:40:26
That latest keyboard iteration looks amazing. I LOVE how you have implemented the tenting and original grand piano thumb cluster orientation. Can you explain how the thumb cluster achieves the custom angle that is not fixed? I really dig it but I do not see exactly how it works. It looks super smart though.
Right now, there are a pair of arms that connects the thumb to the main cluster, which are curved in at the top to allow the greater range of motion. They tighten down (currently with a hex driver) to lock into position.
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-36.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-37.jpg)

when the thumb cluster gets attached, I'm a little afraid that is going to get a little tippy towards the middle. Great idea, though, on the lift mechanism.  I have toyed with similar ideas in my head for how to add tenting to a flat split keyboard.   Glad to see someone with the time and facilities to try ideas like that out so quickly.  Let us know how that feels once you have thumb cluster attached and start pounding on the keys.   ;D

This is something I'd dealt with earlier designs, and I have a solution for it however the printer I currently have doesn't have a big enough bed to print the part I need. Unfortunately the parts my friend has been waiting on were stuck in customs until earlier today, so by the time he receives it and turns it my way it'll be thursday/friday next week. After that I'll be able to print full test units and I'll get more pictures up.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: yumea on Fri, 20 June 2014, 12:42:12
i worry that this connection construction with screws is not stable enough. when some pressure (lying hand) acts on the hinges for some while, they could slip due to insufficient sticking friction and the quite strong torsional moment on them, and if the screws are tightened too firmly to prevent this, the material could be damaged.

so i took some time to consider about an alternative, a physical barrier which shall keep the setting of thumb and main cluster without screw tension on the material.

my idea consists of a gib with a "gear wheel"-like outer profile

[attachimg=1]


so the connectors of thumb cluster, interlink and main cluster to this gib get "gear wheel"-like inner profile negative to the gib's one

[attachimg=2]


stuck together it would look like this:

[attachimg=3]


in this draft the relative position of the thumb to the main cluster is not continuous, the raster is small and can be made even smaller though, but the advantage is the much better stability of the adjusted state.
to change the relative orientation, the gib has to be removed and inserted again.
the gib itself could be enhanced by a head (like a screw head) for shifting and fixation.

i want to give you this idea for your consideration, acidfire.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 20 June 2014, 13:54:09
Backlight LEDs ought to be fine for this I think, especially if they're RGB.  From what I understand reading through the thread though, we're not going to see RGB/LEDs on the first rev?  Can you expand on your plans for this?
First rev will feature a single color backlight to keep the initial costs down. An RGB version will follow once everything is working smoothly.

i worry that this connection construction with screws is not stable enough. when some pressure (lying hand) acts on the hinges for some while, they could slip due to insufficient sticking friction and the quite strong torsional moment on them, and if the screws are tightened too firmly to prevent this, the material could be damaged.

so i took some time to consider about an alternative, a physical barrier which shall keep the setting of thumb and main cluster without screw tension on the material.

my idea consists of a gib with a "gear wheel"-like outer profile

(Attachment Link)


so the connectors of thumb cluster, interlink and main cluster to this gib get "gear wheel"-like inner profile negative to the gib's one

(Attachment Link)


stuck together it would look like this:

(Attachment Link)


in this draft the relative position of the thumb to the main cluster is not continuous, the raster is small and can be made even smaller though, but the advantage is the much better stability of the adjusted state.
to change the relative orientation, the gib has to be removed and inserted again.
the gib itself could be enhanced by a head (like a screw head) for shifting and fixation.

i want to give you this idea for your consideration, acidfire.

I like the idea however it may not be necessary. The two materials we're looking at (ABS and Poly Carb) for the case have both been proven to be capable of dealing with the concerns you have, polycarb especially since that's currently whats being used in the GoPro mounting system which was the original inspiration to this design. There are also plans to texture the joint where the arms mate to help improve the friction and require less tightening to lock them into place.

To give you a little more background, what you've suggested was something I had looked at even when I was building these arms out of the laser cut acrylic. The issue arises from the fact that any indentation like what you're suggestion means a loss of flexibility in the angles that can be set, not to mention the rigidity of the materials, especially the teeth, at such a small scale. There's also the problem that it requires either an additional mold for plastic parts for the gear wheel or to have an extrusion mold made for metal parts, both an expensive proposition. It also limits the open source concept for the case being a custom part that for most people with 3D printers won't be able to replicate.

However, if this becomes an issue when the beta units go out, this will be the first solution we'll try, thank you for taking the time to draft an example.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Naed on Sat, 21 June 2014, 20:05:12
Damn you AcidFire!

Why did you make such a sweet project into reality :P
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Sun, 22 June 2014, 02:18:39
The new case is looking sweet, especially with all those fold out parts that can lay flat for transport, my only concern would be adjusting them on the go. While the allen wrench holder would make it easier, perhaps it would be worth looking into thumbscrews as a means of adjustment. Though with the size of the screws that may not be much easier than the wrench.

 (https://www.unicorpinc.com/images/WEB%20Thumbscrews-plain-%20B.jpg)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: yumea on Sun, 22 June 2014, 09:17:01
i guess all of you want to program the keyboard so that keystrokes (single and combined ones like ctrl+alt+something) fire directly unicode codes instead of scancodes (scancodes would throw us back to handling a qwerty keyboard and would lead to complicated difficulties in programming macros for them like i had with autohotkey).
i find it much more beautiful to preset directly the unicode output. (for my further purposes of using adjusted layouts for korean and japanese, this would work, too - i just let the keyboard send the unicode codes which the ime then converts into the desired korean or japanese character; and for using even more layouts controlled by IMEs in their standard layout (like russian), i would program also another qwerty-like scancode layout.)


as i have mentioned before, i want to make keyboard layouts containing several layers, which i habe been in the process of designing.
these layers shall be accessible by modifier keys (just like the old Shift key).
as i am quite unexperienced in programming keyboards i would like to get your help about how to program such layers.
i have made a sample code about how i imagine such modifier key functions and hope to get your advice in how to actually do it. i also expect my sample code to be containing many mistakes which i would appreciate you much to correct for me.


the basic outline of my sample is:
case of pressed modifier keys -> function for the combination with a following character key -> unicode fire function for this key combination <-> timer function to make delay between the unicode fires; presetting of these delays
(i my sample this all follows in reverse order, just like c++ works)


i do not know how to address the keys. so i have assumed the
sample modifier keys to be accessed by: Key03 and Key04 (keys like Ctrl, Shift, Alt, ...)
and the
sample character keys by: KeyA5, KeyA6, KeyA7 (keys like A, L, 4, [, -)

*Key*.state is meant to return if *Key* is pressed down (state=1) or released (state=-1)  - right i have no clue about how to make such a function either.




int d0=500;                                               // sets standard delay between first and second code fire
int d1=50;                                                // sets standard delay between code fires, up from the second code fire

int timer(int ttM, int tKey){                             // timer: makes delay to next code fire as long as the keys are down
  for (int tt=0,tt<ttM,tt++){                             // counts up until delay time ttM (d0 or d1 from the fire unicode function loop) or until the character key tKey is released
    if (tKey.state=-1){                                   // case that the character key tKey is released
      tt=ttM;                                             // sets exit condition to this timer
      st=-1;                                              // sets exit condition to the fire unicode function loop that has initiated this timer
      return st;                                           // returns exit condition to the fire unicode function loop that has initiated this timer
    }
  }
}
 
...

int send03(){...}                                         // fire function to fire unicode for the Key03+... combination

int send04(){...}                                         // fire function to fire unicode for the Key03+... combination

...
int send0304(int unicode, int sKey){                      // fire function to fire the unicode for the Key03+Key04+KeyA5,6,7,..... combination
  for (int st=0,st>-1,st++){                              // repeats infinitely until timer returns exit condition st=-1
      send unicode;                                       // fires the unicode for the Key03+Key04+KeyA5,A6,A7,..... combination
      if st=0 timer(d0, sKey);                            // starts timer for the 1st code fire to make delay of d0 (e.g. 500 from presetting) timer circles to next code fire
      else timer(d1, sKey);                               // starts timer up from the 2nd code fire to make delay of d1 (e.g. 50 from presetting) timer circles to next code fire
  }
}

...

int m03(){...}                                             // function to register the following character in the case of pressed-down Key03

int m04(){...}                                             // function to register the following character in the case of pressed-down Key03

...

int m0304(){                                               // function to register the following character key in the case of pressed-down Key03+Key04 combination
  if (KeyA5.state=1)                                      // case of pressed-down Key03+Key04+KeyA5 combination
    send0304(29D4,KeyA5);                                 // starts function to fire the unicode for the Key03+Key04+KeyA5 combination
  else
  if (KeyA6.state=1)                                      // case of pressed-down Key03+Key04+KeyA6 combination
    send0304(29D5,KeyA6);                                 // starts function to fire the unicode for the Key03+Key04+KeyA6 combination
  else
  if (KeyA7.state=1)                                      // case of pressed-down Key03+Key04+KeyA7 combination
    send0304(29D6,KeyA7);                                 // starts function to fire the unicode for the Key03+Key04+KeyA7 combination
  else
  if
  .....
  else
  if KeyA7.state=-1
    send03()                                              // switches to the function for the case of pressed-down Key03
  else
  if KeyA6.state=-1
    send04()                                              // switches to the function for the case of pressed-down Key04
}

int main(){                                               // MAIN PROGRAM

...

  if (Key03.state=1){
    if (Key04.state=1)
      m0304();                                             // starts function for the case of pressed-down Key03+Key04 combination

    ...

    else m03();                                           // starts function for the case of pressed-down Key03 (placement here unlogical)
    }

  if (Key04.state=1){
    if (Key03.state=1)
      m0304();                                             // starts function for the case of pressed-down Key03+Key04 combination

    ...

    else m04();                                           // starts function for the case of pressed-down Key04 (placement here unlogical)
    }

...

}



i guess one (only one of the certainly numerous) necessary correction would be to put the call for the m0304 function with its calling condition into the m03 and m04 functions.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Sun, 22 June 2014, 16:09:27
i guess all of you want to program the keyboard so that keystrokes (single and combined ones like ctrl+alt+something) fire directly unicode codes instead of scancodes
Is it even possible? (without designing a specific driver for the keyboard, I mean, and even with this, it'll probably fail with some programs directly reading the keyboard state). The idea that the keyboard would send unicodes is great on paper, but I don't think the people who designed the keyboard protocol allowed anything like this, unfortunately (in fact, if you're looking at xkb on Linux, for example, it's an awfully complicated system).

As far as I know, people who want to send unicode characters (or characters not in the standard layout) with a programmable keyboard usually use tricks like sending down-"ALT", a sequence of a possible "+" and digits using the keypad, and releasing "ALT" (compose sequences are also a possibility on some systems). Unfortunately, it'll work only if the OS allow this, and it won't work with every program. Besides, you can't do it for normal characters, or the modifiers (like ctrl, alt, etc.) won't work.


So I'd like to know how you intend to "fire a unicode character"... if there's an easy way, I missed it :( So I'm REALLY interested. You probably won't be able to do far more than what you do with a normal keyboard, except the (great) possibility of sending sequences of scancodes with a single key (which allow already a lot of possibilities... Besides, there's dozen of additional scancodes available that can be used).


Beside this point, I've yet to study your code... I'm a bit busy currently, but I'll get far more free time in july/august, and I'm really interested in what can actually be done in the keyboard.



(BTW, translating key presses in Hepburn sequences before sending them to the PC works well, I tried it with a Leonardo and a couple of microswitchs... Now, I REALLY hope there's a lot of memory in the keyboard, because I intend to put a lot of things inside ^_^ )
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: JackMills on Sun, 22 June 2014, 23:24:31
i guess all of you want to program the keyboard so that keystrokes (single and combined ones like ctrl+alt+something) fire directly unicode codes instead of scancodes (scancodes would throw us back to handling a qwerty keyboard and would lead to complicated difficulties in programming macros for them like i had with autohotkey).
i find it much more beautiful to preset directly the unicode output. (for my further purposes of using adjusted layouts for korean and japanese, this would work, too - i just let the keyboard send the unicode codes which the ime then converts into the desired korean or japanese character; and for using even more layouts controlled by IMEs in their standard layout (like russian), i would program also another qwerty-like scancode layout.)


as i have mentioned before, i want to make keyboard layouts containing several layers, which i habe been in the process of designing.
these layers shall be accessible by modifier keys (just like the old Shift key).
as i am quite unexperienced in programming keyboards i would like to get your help about how to program such layers.
i have made a sample code about how i imagine such modifier key functions and hope to get your advice in how to actually do it. i also expect my sample code to be containing many mistakes which i would appreciate you much to correct for me.


the basic outline of my sample is:
case of pressed modifier keys -> function for the combination with a following character key -> unicode fire function for this key combination <-> timer function to make delay between the unicode fires; presetting of these delays
(i my sample this all follows in reverse order, just like c++ works)


i do not know how to address the keys. so i have assumed the
sample modifier keys to be accessed by: Key03 and Key04 (keys like Ctrl, Shift, Alt, ...)
and the
sample character keys by: KeyA5, KeyA6, KeyA7 (keys like A, L, 4, [, -)

*Key*.state is meant to return if *Key* is pressed down (state=1) or released (state=-1)  - right i have no clue about how to make such a function either.




int d0=500;                                               // sets standard delay between first and second code fire
int d1=50;                                                // sets standard delay between code fires, up from the second code fire

int timer(int ttM, int tKey){                             // timer: makes delay to next code fire as long as the keys are down
  for (int tt=0,tt<ttM,tt++){                             // counts up until delay time ttM (d0 or d1 from the fire unicode function loop) or until the character key tKey is released
    if (tKey.state=-1){                                   // case that the character key tKey is released
      tt=ttM;                                             // sets exit condition to this timer
      st=-1;                                              // sets exit condition to the fire unicode function loop that has initiated this timer
      return st;                                           // returns exit condition to the fire unicode function loop that has initiated this timer
    }
  }
}
 
...

int send03(){...}                                         // fire function to fire unicode for the Key03+... combination

int send04(){...}                                         // fire function to fire unicode for the Key03+... combination

...
int send0304(int unicode, int sKey){                      // fire function to fire the unicode for the Key03+Key04+KeyA5,6,7,..... combination
  for (int st=0,st>-1,st++){                              // repeats infinitely until timer returns exit condition st=-1
      send unicode;                                       // fires the unicode for the Key03+Key04+KeyA5,A6,A7,..... combination
      if st=0 timer(d0, sKey);                            // starts timer for the 1st code fire to make delay of d0 (e.g. 500 from presetting) timer circles to next code fire
      else timer(d1, sKey);                               // starts timer up from the 2nd code fire to make delay of d1 (e.g. 50 from presetting) timer circles to next code fire
  }
}

...

int m03(){...}                                             // function to register the following character in the case of pressed-down Key03

int m04(){...}                                             // function to register the following character in the case of pressed-down Key03

...

int m0304(){                                               // function to register the following character key in the case of pressed-down Key03+Key04 combination
  if (KeyA5.state=1)                                      // case of pressed-down Key03+Key04+KeyA5 combination
    send0304(29D4,KeyA5);                                 // starts function to fire the unicode for the Key03+Key04+KeyA5 combination
  else
  if (KeyA6.state=1)                                      // case of pressed-down Key03+Key04+KeyA6 combination
    send0304(29D5,KeyA6);                                 // starts function to fire the unicode for the Key03+Key04+KeyA6 combination
  else
  if (KeyA7.state=1)                                      // case of pressed-down Key03+Key04+KeyA7 combination
    send0304(29D6,KeyA7);                                 // starts function to fire the unicode for the Key03+Key04+KeyA7 combination
  else
  if
  .....
  else
  if KeyA7.state=-1
    send03()                                              // switches to the function for the case of pressed-down Key03
  else
  if KeyA6.state=-1
    send04()                                              // switches to the function for the case of pressed-down Key04
}

int main(){                                               // MAIN PROGRAM

...

  if (Key03.state=1){
    if (Key04.state=1)
      m0304();                                             // starts function for the case of pressed-down Key03+Key04 combination

    ...

    else m03();                                           // starts function for the case of pressed-down Key03 (placement here unlogical)
    }

  if (Key04.state=1){
    if (Key03.state=1)
      m0304();                                             // starts function for the case of pressed-down Key03+Key04 combination

    ...

    else m04();                                           // starts function for the case of pressed-down Key04 (placement here unlogical)
    }

...

}



i guess one (only one of the certainly numerous) necessary correction would be to put the call for the m0304 function with its calling condition into the m03 and m04 functions.
I know this discussion originated here, but doesn't this deserve a separate thread?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 23 June 2014, 17:56:56
The new case is looking sweet, especially with all those fold out parts that can lay flat for transport, my only concern would be adjusting them on the go. While the allen wrench holder would make it easier, perhaps it would be worth looking into thumbscrews as a means of adjustment. Though with the size of the screws that may not be much easier than the wrench.
I've spent some time looking, designing and testing both traditional nurled and otherwise patterned thumbscrews and the tight spacing in a number of places makes them somewhat difficult to employ. I haven't given up finding another option but the hex key+holder is still looking like the best bet currently.

Damn you AcidFire!

Why did you make such a sweet project into reality :P
I'm... sorry? No wait, no I'm not ;)

i guess all of you want to program the keyboard so that keystrokes (single and combined ones like ctrl+alt+something) fire directly unicode codes instead of scancodes (scancodes would throw us back to handling a qwerty keyboard and would lead to complicated difficulties in programming macros for them like i had with autohotkey).
snip
Is it even possible? (without designing a specific driver for the keyboard, I mean, and even with this, it'll probably fail with some programs directly reading the keyboard state). The idea that the keyboard would send unicodes is great on paper, but I don't think the people who designed the keyboard protocol allowed anything like this, unfortunately (in fact, if you're looking at xkb on Linux, for example, it's an awfully complicated system).
snip
(BTW, translating key presses in Hepburn sequences before sending them to the PC works well, I tried it with a Leonardo and a couple of microswitchs... Now, I REALLY hope there's a lot of memory in the keyboard, because I intend to put a lot of things inside ^_^ )
It's a really interesting way to look at it, along with the counterpoints Koren's made. I'll be putting up a dedicated forum near launch or shortly after with a section dedicated to programming and sharing of this sort of thing where this can be discussed further, especially after I've released the source code.

As for memory space, I'm still looking at using the LPC11U37 with 64kB flash/12kB sram. However, given the small difference in price (about 0.40-0.50/unit in volume), the newly released LPC11u68 with 256kB/36kB sram is looking mighty tempting as well. I haven't ruled out an M3 solution either, however I'm still aiming for the M0 line right now purely for reasons of power consumption & cost (not to mention the LPC11U line supports the drag & drop programming bootloader).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: pdf on Tue, 24 June 2014, 09:56:55
Backlight LEDs ought to be fine for this I think, especially if they're RGB.  From what I understand reading through the thread though, we're not going to see RGB/LEDs on the first rev?  Can you expand on your plans for this?
First rev will feature a single color backlight to keep the initial costs down. An RGB version will follow once everything is working smoothly.
Ah right, well without RGB, it's probably not going to work for cycling through layouts for example, but the backlight is still probably alright for two-state toggle indication.

I'm assuming the diodes will be on the main board, so it'll mean a full board replacement to upgrade to RGB when it becomes available?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Tue, 24 June 2014, 11:26:03

Quote
As for memory space, I'm still looking at using the LPC11U37 with 64kB flash/12kB sram. However, given the small difference in price (about 0.40-0.50/unit in volume)
I'd say it definitively worth the ~ .50 (for me at least). I'll gladly pay for it. Running out of memory just for .50 would be unfortunate.

Layers (and especially macros) take space, and I was thinking that the keyboard could make a double translation: key -> actual character* -> keycodes**. The first one depending on the layout, the second one depending on the keyboard you're trying to emulate. I mean, I'm probably not the only one who will probably use it on different computers. Sometimes, you can't change the keyboard layout in the PC. Being able to say to the *keyboard* "behave like a qwerty", "behave like an azerty", "behave like a qwertz" would be handy.

* or macros
** or sequence of keycodes

What I mean is that the keyboard could translate "second row, second key" into "A", then "A" into 24 or 36 depending on the azerty/qwerty settings (then the PC will translate it back into "A"). Who hasn't been stuck in a terminal, trying to remember how typing a strong password with a azerty layout in a qwerty terminal, without any way to change the layout on the PC side? (OK, probably many people interested in AcidFire's keyboard, but developpers/administrators where qwerty is not the de facto standard will probably understand what I mean ^_^ )

But this require to store both your layout and several standard layouts (that fortunately only have a limited number of layers)

Ah right, well without RGB, it's probably not going to work for cycling through layouts for example, but the backlight is still probably alright for two-state toggle indication.
You can still use shapes with so many leds: all keys = layer 0 ; left&right columns = row 1 ; upper line of keys = layer 2 ; home row = layer 3 ; illuminated heart = layer 4 ; etc.

Still, I agree that RGB is just nicer and cooler.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 24 June 2014, 18:47:29
First rev will feature a single color backlight to keep the initial costs down. An RGB version will follow once everything is working smoothly.
Ah right, well without RGB, it's probably not going to work for cycling through layouts for example, but the backlight is still probably alright for two-state toggle indication.

I'm assuming the diodes will be on the main board, so it'll mean a full board replacement to upgrade to RGB when it becomes available?
[/quote]

We're looking at a couple of different methods, but yes that's a possibility as well.


Quote
As for memory space, I'm still looking at using the LPC11U37 with 64kB flash/12kB sram. However, given the small difference in price (about 0.40-0.50/unit in volume)
I'd say it definitively worth the ~ .50 (for me at least). I'll gladly pay for it. Running out of memory just for .50 would be unfortunate.

Layers (and especially macros) take space, and I was thinking that the keyboard could make a double translation: key -> actual character* -> keycodes**. The first one depending on the layout, the second one depending on the keyboard you're trying to emulate. I mean, I'm probably not the only one who will probably use it on different computers. Sometimes, you can't change the keyboard layout in the PC. Being able to say to the *keyboard* "behave like a qwerty", "behave like an azerty", "behave like a qwertz" would be handy.

* or macros
** or sequence of keycodes

What I mean is that the keyboard could translate "second row, second key" into "A", then "A" into 24 or 36 depending on the azerty/qwerty settings (then the PC will translate it back into "A"). Who hasn't been stuck in a terminal, trying to remember how typing a strong password with a azerty layout in a qwerty terminal, without any way to change the layout on the PC side? (OK, probably many people interested in AcidFire's keyboard, but developpers/administrators where qwerty is not the de facto standard will probably understand what I mean ^_^ )

But this require to store both your layout and several standard layouts (that fortunately only have a limited number of layers)

Ah right, well without RGB, it's probably not going to work for cycling through layouts for example, but the backlight is still probably alright for two-state toggle indication.
You can still use shapes with so many leds: all keys = layer 0 ; left&right columns = row 1 ; upper line of keys = layer 2 ; home row = layer 3 ; illuminated heart = layer 4 ; etc.

Still, I agree that RGB is just nicer and cooler.

remember though that what is a .50 difference per part (x2 since each side has a controller) still needs a markup on top of it. So you're looking at $1.00 x 2.6 (often recommended for open source projects) so it's a $2.60 addition to the price tag which doesn't seem like much but adds up quickly across the project. That being said, remember that the layers aren't stored in the micro like most controllers, but rather an external memory card which you can upgrade quite easily.

And you're right, while RGB LEDs would be the slickest option, I have a few patterns in mind which should work nicely with the single color backlights.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Wed, 25 June 2014, 08:25:46
That being said, remember that the layers aren't stored in the micro like most controllers, but rather an external memory card which you can upgrade quite easily.
Nice to know that the external memory card is still in the project. With this, obviously, memory isn't a problem anymore, so forget about my previous message. This keyboard will be great.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: yumea on Fri, 27 June 2014, 08:04:32
i guess all of you want to program the keyboard so that keystrokes (single and combined ones like ctrl+alt+something) fire directly unicode codes instead of scancodes (scancodes would throw us back to handling a qwerty keyboard and would lead to complicated difficulties in programming macros for them like i had with autohotkey).
snip
Is it even possible? (without designing a specific driver for the keyboard, I mean, and even with this, it'll probably fail with some programs directly reading the keyboard state). The idea that the keyboard would send unicodes is great on paper, but I don't think the people who designed the keyboard protocol allowed anything like this, unfortunately (in fact, if you're looking at xkb on Linux, for example, it's an awfully complicated system).
snip
(BTW, translating key presses in Hepburn sequences before sending them to the PC works well, I tried it with a Leonardo and a couple of microswitchs... Now, I REALLY hope there's a lot of memory in the keyboard, because I intend to put a lot of things inside ^_^ )
It's a really interesting way to look at it, along with the counterpoints Koren's made. I'll be putting up a dedicated forum near launch or shortly after with a section dedicated to programming and sharing of this sort of thing where this can be discussed further, especially after I've released the source code.
snip


after sharing your constructive considerations on my post and your hint on the keyboard protocol, koren, i tried to get into this matter and also to get a deeper insight into the ergodox firmware files.
but it began to dawn on me that such modifier routines do not work the way i tried to set up in my previous post.
letting the keyboard send scan codes is the simplest way and seems to be done in every firmware i have found so far. but will we really have to deal with just rearranging virtual qwerty keyboard keys?
that is quite stoneage.
in contrast to the conception that only scancodes are possible, i have found a corrective statement in wikipedia:
in the article about keyboard layouts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout) just in the introduction in the 8th line it is written
"Most computer keyboards are designed to send scancodes to the operating system, rather than directly sending characters."
hereof i deduce that also some computer keyboards are designed to directly send characters. so, unicode sending keyboard firmware seems to be possible.

however, acidfire has also mentioned many times that there will be compiled a configuration tool for the firmware, that it will support 8+ layers and will be available open source.
in this thread there have been many post by experts as well who are experienced in implementing firmware on keyboards - lastly by koren
so i have considered, instead of reinventing the wheel, i should better ask acidfire and the experts directly if and how my desired layout can be actualized.

on the pictures below i show my desired layout which i have developed so far up to the 4th layer, so on the key images only the characters in layer 1,2,3,4 are shown.
"L2", "L3", "L4", "L5", "L7" are the modifier keys for the layers 2, 3, 4, 5, 7. for the function and the character keys, L2 has the same effect like Shift (L2 + ^⇥ = +^⇥ (shift control tab) for scrolling through tabs reversely).

koren, on the third (japanese) layout i want to show you my proposal for japanese hepburn sequences. i have been considering about your idea, and it seems to be just the same like mine.
except ゛゜ just plane hepburn character sequences can be sent to generate japanese characters. many of these sequences might look weired and some of them are exchangable (like extu→ettu, zy→j, dox→dol), but those who are familiar with japanese input should understand it fully.
do you know how to generate ゛゜ by hepburn?

the last layout is meant for usage with IMEs, sending qwerty scancodes. here, on the right grayed part the characters for the german ime are shown - because the key left of "z" is absent on the american keyboard.


main layout (english, german)
[attach=1]

korean layout
[attach=2]

japanese layout
[attach=3]

qwert keyboard scancode plan
[attach=4]
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Fri, 27 June 2014, 10:36:29
(disclaimer: if it bothers AcidFire or anyone here that we discuss protocols/layouts/firmware here, we can open a separate thread...)

but will we really have to deal with just rearranging virtual qwerty keyboard keys?
that is quite stoneage.
If fear it's quite a good summarization of the current situation...

Most people are quite happy with their "national" layout, and even for special cases (like japanese), they tend to use standard layouts too, like qwerty + IME.

There was use for additional keys, like multimedia keys, so they added some reserved scancodes (or rather use old scancodes from some manufacturers that created those). But since scancodes means no computing power in the keyboard, thus cheaper keyboards, they never found any reasons to improve the protocol to handle unicode or anything like this. Doing this in the PC was easier.

in contrast to the conception that only scancodes are possible, i have found a corrective statement in wikipedia:
in the article about keyboard layouts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout) just in the introduction in the 8th line it is written
"Most computer keyboards are designed to send scancodes to the operating system, rather than directly sending characters."
hereof i deduce that also some computer keyboards are designed to directly send characters. so, unicode sending keyboard firmware seems to be possible.
I think I remember old non-PC keyboards sending directly ASCII (7bits) codes instead of scancodes. And you can always create a keyboard that send unicode characters on PC... but you could need to install a specific driver so that the PC understand the keycodes.

So I'm not sure it's as promising as it sounds.

I you say "I'm ok with installing a custom driver on the PC for the keyboard", there's no doubt that you can send unicode chars with the keyboard.

The problem is that pre-installed keyboard drivers only expect scancodes, afaik, and translate those themselves in characters. I don't think you can explain them that they should fire the codes they're receiving without interpreting them (would be surprised if you could do so in Windows, and I'm pretty sure I've read nothing about this possibility in xkb in Linux)

But, to me, installing a custom keyboard driver (if you're allowed to!) is pretty much the same as carrying an xkb configuration file or an autohotkey macros collection... a non-optimal solution. Using qwerty susbtitution is sub-par, but at least it won't require anything on the PC-side to work.

on the pictures below i show my desired layout which i have developed so far up to the 4th layer
Seems perfectly doable for me. You'll have a lot of macros, but since there's enough memory for this...

koren, on the third (japanese) layout i want to show you my proposal for japanese hepburn sequences. i have been considering about your idea, and it seems to be just the same like mine.
Yes, we've pretty similar ideas. The differences are interesting, though.

Your japanese layout seems similar to a Dvorak japanese layout: enter the sound with the right, and the vowel with the left hand. I rather went with a "one kana, one key".

Here's my current layout : http://imgur.com/9a83OVM

Lower left is normal Layer 4. Upper left require "Shift".
Lower right is Layer 5 (a kind of "alt-gr" layer). Upper right is Layer 5 + shift.

Some placements will probably change. It's not as "confortable" as it can be (I'll probably use the same digit several times in a row on a regular basis) and the pinkie usage may be a bit high, but at least I remember it easily, and most useful kanas are near the home row on strongest fingers.

Only black characters are "required" to type japanese in an IME as far as I know (after some testing, kixya gives the same result as kya in my IME, so that makes everything easier, no specific firmware needed, just macros)

Grayed japanese kanjis are just "shortcuts" for most common sounds (sparing one key press). I don't have shortcuts for non-japanese sounds, but I don't really mind. There's too many sounds possible, anyway.

Grayed ascii sequences may be useful to enter all sequence an IME can know, but I'm pretty sure there're even useless. As long as qw + i and ku + xi gives the same result, I probably don't need "qw". Same for the others.

I was surprised that you included things like "axtu", "onn", etc., at first, but since most of the keys on the right weren't used, that's interesting and will result in fewer keystrokes if you can get used to it.

do you know how to generate ゛゜ by hepburn?
Not sure you actually can create a hepburn sequence for that. "to" must become "do", "ho" become "bo" or "po".

I suppose you want those keys to work as dead keys, like for accentuated characters in some european keyboards. It probably could be done by tweaking the firmware (macro for 't' or 'k' depending on a flag, the " / ° key setting the flag).

But what who you use the " / ° key for, anyway? You already have g for k+", p for h+°, b for h+", d for t+", j for t+"... It seems to me that you can enter anything without this key?

Do you want to be able to enter just " or ° without a character?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jeep on Sat, 28 June 2014, 18:53:01
So, it's getting close to the end of the month. Still on track? I'm anxious to give you my monies. ;)

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: sordna on Sat, 28 June 2014, 23:08:38
(disclaimer: if it bothers AcidFire or anyone here that we discuss protocols/layouts/firmware here, we can open a separate thread...)

Please do so. It's an interesting topic but not necessarily tied to this particular keyboard.
So it would be beneficial to move these long posts to a dedicated thread about firmware for advanced layouts I think.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 30 June 2014, 12:44:13
So, it's getting close to the end of the month. Still on track? I'm anxious to give you my monies. ;)

We're close. I spent the weekend with the latest revision of the case prototype. While something worked, others didn't and I'm currently working to make corrections, particularly in the arm connections. I've also gotten confirmation on shipment for my parts & PCBs which should mean a full working prototype in the next week or so. Once it's confirmed working, the campaign will go live :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jeep on Mon, 30 June 2014, 12:47:03
Great to hear! (And just for the record, I would rather have something that works as you want it to than something today... so don't rush something to market before it's ready.)

Thanks for the update.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kittykatmax on Mon, 30 June 2014, 18:03:24
Agreed.  Getting it done right beats getting it done fast. 
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jeep on Tue, 01 July 2014, 17:25:24
Okay, this is the third time today that I've checked this thread... I've got a problem. (And, no, you can't prove that I checked it more than 3 times... because I wasn't logged in and I used different computers for the other times. :p)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: JackMills on Tue, 01 July 2014, 18:23:07
Okay, this is the third time today that I've checked this thread... I've got a problem. (And, no, you can't prove that I checked it more than 3 times... because I wasn't logged in and I used different computers for the other times. :p)

I've pinned a tab in my browser for this thread and refresh it regularly, same for the crowdsupply site, even if AcidFire said he has to wait for some parts and it will probably next week or so.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: techne on Tue, 01 July 2014, 19:37:53
I have been reading this for 6 months.  Well worth my time.  I just registered now.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jakkdl on Wed, 02 July 2014, 17:00:09
I highly suggest you guys turn on notifications so you get a mail everytime there's a new reply (in addition to some sort of notification on new mails) - it will save you a lot of time otherwise spent refreshing.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 02 July 2014, 19:08:14
Just so you guys know, I check this thread just as often, I love seeing your feedback and suggestions/thoughts. And email notification is definitely the way to go ;)

Development wise, I had a very productive weekend. After having a little epiphany on friday, I was able to redesign the casing to make it easier to both 3D print and more importantly, reduce the cost of the molds required for production. A side benefit was that the new design should be (relatively) easy to machine as well, opening up the possibility of CNC aluminum case options without needing a 4 axis machine.

The big issue with the design is the slides/rails for the adjustable arms. The original design would call for a mold with 6-7 cams (slides), which complicates production and the cost of the mold. It also makes the design very difficult to produce in any method other than injection molding. While I was talking with someone about the boards and playing with the latest prototype, I realized that the design of the arms gives me a bit more leeway in how much material needs to surround the screws to make them work as a rail. So I put together a quick prototype to test it:
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-39.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-40.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-41.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-42.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-43.jpg)
I was grinning ear to ear when I realized that not only does this work, it makes a number of other things possible and easier to achieve. While I was playing with this prototype at my desk, another thought hit me. I squared out the corners on the arm parts, you can then flip them around and lock the arms from being able rotate, while still be able to adjust the distance:
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-44.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-45.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-46.jpg)
Which should prove to be pretty ideal for those of you looking to keep it flat for travel. So, the work's now been done to the casing, the main in particular, to reflect this new design. To give you a point of comparison, this is what I was originally looking at:
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-38.jpg)
While this is the new design:
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-47.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-48.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-49.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-50.jpg)

I also had a chance to sit down with a local molder today who completely blew me away not only in the quality of their work and what they're capable of, but their pricing as well. It's very likely we'll be working with them for the casings which means not only a top quality case, but a much shorter lead time with no language/timezone barriers to communication (it helps that they're currently a 30 min drive from where I am).

The other good news is that I've received all the FPC cables and connectors and my boards should be here by Friday assuming there aren't any hangups in customs. As for the final case prototype, the same injection molder has the capability of printing me a set of final parts for testing the fit of everything, which is the final step aside from assembling the electronics to finishing the campaign prep and launching :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jeep on Wed, 02 July 2014, 20:29:10
I highly suggest you guys turn on notifications so you get a mail everytime there's a new reply (in addition to some sort of notification on new mails) - it will save you a lot of time otherwise spent refreshing.

I told you I had a problem... and no it wouldn't save me time. I only like to go through my e-mail twice per day. I don't want to spend all day checking my email instead. ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: fisofo on Wed, 02 July 2014, 21:29:44
Oh man, so much good news! Happy happy happy!  ;D
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 02 July 2014, 21:35:29
You may get slightly improved rigidity without increasing weight / amount of plastic by adding some little ribs; this nice page has some about that at the top:
http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/gcnc/ch6/
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 03 July 2014, 03:56:31
You may get slightly improved rigidity without increasing weight / amount of plastic by adding some little ribs; this nice page has some about that at the top:
http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/gcnc/ch6/

The designs are definitely getting ribbing, the f row in particular is susceptible to warpage right now. Admittedly I've been skipping it because it takes additional time to model and when I'm prototyping and iterating through designs fairly quickly those sorts of details tend to slow me down a bit. The final models (which I'm currently working on) will feature them and a few other key things, like holes sized properly for the brass inserts I just ordered which should make it very easy to open up and tinker. I also ordered inserts for the 1/4-20 threading mount point on the bottom of the case as well.

And since I was so giddy about the ongoing case work I completely forgot to mention something else. With the change to the FPC connectors, I'm able to stack headers on each side of the PCB instead of having to double them on the same side. This means I no longer need the internal connections which removes the need for a (relatively) expensive PCB for the controller, aka a cost reduction (which will help to balance the cost of the injection molded parts).

The removal of these 2mm connectors allows me to design a thinner case as well, and while I'm still looking at the numbers and ensuring there's enough space in the case, right now it's looking like I can reduce the overall height by 3mm, which just happens to offset the height of the built in case stand.

The last thing to note was overall assembly. Because of the reduction of the margins on the case (or lack thereof), I had a hard time working screw points into the case, particularly the thumb clusters. This became a bit of an internal debate, because it comes into conflict with one of the major goals of the project; modularity. It's taken a bit of tinkering but I've come up with a hole pattern that'll allow for atleast two different layouts, one being what you've seen for the thumb clusters, and the other being a 3x4 1u key layout which should work nicely as a small macro pad. And because of the modular nature, there's also the possibility of doing new case designs for new layouts down the road (especially since my molding costs are much lower than originally projected).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 03 July 2014, 07:29:15
Thanks to a rather painful migraine, I didn't get much sleep last night. So, shiny new forums are up! (http://forums.multiplxd.com/)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: JPG on Thu, 03 July 2014, 07:47:05
Thanks to a rather painful migraine, I didn't get much sleep last night. So, shiny new forums are up! (http://forums.multiplxd.com/)


A productive migraine that is ...  :p
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: davkol on Thu, 03 July 2014, 08:06:37
That's cool, but now I'll have to keep track of two places instead of just one. :evil:
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: QuadGMoto on Thu, 03 July 2014, 11:46:53
That's cool, but now I'll have to keep track of two places instead of just one. :evil:


I just signed up for his forum (and started a discussion about a layout (http://forums.multiplxd.com/threads/quadgmotos-programmer-layout.6/)). It can also send notifications to threads you've subscribed to. As for checking another forum… well I will personally put up with it for this keyboard.  :p
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Zisilius on Sun, 06 July 2014, 03:46:42
AcidFire: First of all I'm seriously excited about this keyboard coming out and I can't wait to put my hands on this beauty. Thank you for doing all of this work, I'm sure hundreds/thousands of people will appreciate it in future.

I would like to ask you about the type of key caps that the keyboard will offer. I don't particularly care that much for the back light, RGB or whatnot ,since I wish to use unmarked keys. I'm pretty sure that you mentioned creating a custom profile for the caps used for your board. So I'm wondering if we will be able to customize the colors (since I wish to have white PBT caps for the alphanumerics and light grey for the modifier keys), chose if we want anything printed on the caps and I hope they will be PBT? Or will we need to get them from somewhere else, I'm just worried about the specific profile of caps for the Axios that will be hard to source. Hmm or maybe SP will do some kind of a custom set like they did for the ErgoDox, will be cool to this what comes out.

Another thing about the actual switches. I'm excited to see what Matias can engineer for the Axios, but I'm worried about the time they might take. It sounds like a pretty drastic change from their current line up, to a more cherry MX oriented design and improve it on top of that. Are they getting any closer to a finishing stage and what other info you might have about them for us?

And also the casing. Will we get to chose a color for it? I sure would love a completely black case with that key cap combo :)

Either way, hopefully we are inching closer and closer to the release of this sucker and celebrating all of the work that you put into this.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: davkol on Sun, 06 July 2014, 04:40:54
I think the MX-compatible Matias switches could have something to do with Gaote, a company that assembles Alps-compatible Matias switches and makes Cherry MX clones (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Gaote_Cherry_MX_clone). Gaote MX-compatible switches are already used on keyboards like Noppoo Lolita.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: TotalChaos on Sun, 06 July 2014, 09:19:30
This keyboard looks splendiferously wonderful!

I can't wait to buy one with Cherry Red switches!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: davkol on Sun, 06 July 2014, 09:30:53
Ouch, TotalChaos strikes back. Await a hundred posts about how this keyboard should support PS/2.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Glod on Sun, 06 July 2014, 18:06:38
Ouch, TotalChaos strikes back. Await a hundred posts about how this keyboard should support PS/2.

LOL
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: hasu on Tue, 08 July 2014, 19:23:43
First, good to seeing great progress of your project!

I like to ask some about bootloader of LPC controller.

(not to mention the LPC11U line supports the drag & drop programming bootloader).

I'm working with NXP LPC11U35/501 and disappointed a bit at its bootloader. The NXP bootloader is not as "Drap and Drop" as what I expected, on Mac and Linux I cannot program with the "DnD" method and I have to use terminal commands(like umount, dd) to upload my firmware. Not so user friendly.

Does your LPC11U37 has better bootloader and you can do "Drag and Drop" on Mac and Linux?

And I have no experience other Cortex M's, so I don't know the NXP booloader is excellent or not in comparison with other Cortex's like STM. Did you try other Cortex's yet? How do you think?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 08 July 2014, 19:50:07
AcidFire: First of all I'm seriously excited about this keyboard coming out and I can't wait to put my hands on this beauty. Thank you for doing all of this work, I'm sure hundreds/thousands of people will appreciate it in future.

I would like to ask you about the type of key caps that the keyboard will offer. I don't particularly care that much for the back light, RGB or whatnot ,since I wish to use unmarked keys. I'm pretty sure that you mentioned creating a custom profile for the caps used for your board. So I'm wondering if we will be able to customize the colors (since I wish to have white PBT caps for the alphanumerics and light grey for the modifier keys), chose if we want anything printed on the caps and I hope they will be PBT? Or will we need to get them from somewhere else, I'm just worried about the specific profile of caps for the Axios that will be hard to source. Hmm or maybe SP will do some kind of a custom set like they did for the ErgoDox, will be cool to this what comes out.

Another thing about the actual switches. I'm excited to see what Matias can engineer for the Axios, but I'm worried about the time they might take. It sounds like a pretty drastic change from their current line up, to a more cherry MX oriented design and improve it on top of that. Are they getting any closer to a finishing stage and what other info you might have about them for us?

And also the casing. Will we get to chose a color for it? I sure would love a completely black case with that key cap combo :)

Either way, hopefully we are inching closer and closer to the release of this sucker and celebrating all of the work that you put into this.
Unfortunately to start we won't be able to offer options outside of the Polycarb (though we are looking at a variety of colors for those) simply because it's too much of an investment to get them from SP where we can offer a price point that is appealing to you and doesn't end up costing us money. As I mentioned tho, you will be able to order the PC keys in hopefully a decent spectrum and they'll be vinyl coated/dyed so they won't wear like normal ABS/Printed keys. As for the profiles, we're currently going to be offering DSA & DCS (though DCS will be Row 1) to start. There's also something special we're doing with the DSA keys that we'll share a bit later ;)

I'll have to touch base with Matias, but I believe they're currently waiting for a PO from me to get the fianl engineering going. These by far have the longest lead time, and we're looking at alternative solutions that we can offer for those of you who need it/want it sooner. Unfortunately without funding, it's not something I can get spooled up until we run the campaign, but we'll be doing what we can to shorten the lead times.

As for the casing, after talking to the molders additional colors may be an option, they're waiting on a final/near final design from me to be able to give me final costs & minimums for colors. To start we'll be doing them in black.


This keyboard looks splendiferously wonderful!

I can't wait to buy one with Cherry Red switches!

Ouch, TotalChaos strikes back. Await a hundred posts about how this keyboard should support PS/2.
Ha! I know I've seen libraries for PS2 support, and it may be possible with the current setup of the board, we'll have to take a look at it once everything else is taken care of.

I think the MX-compatible Matias switches could have something to do with Gaote, a company that assembles Alps-compatible Matias switches and makes Cherry MX clones (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Gaote_Cherry_MX_clone). Gaote MX-compatible switches are already used on keyboards like Noppoo Lolita.
That's interesting. If so, they may be the ones doing the engineering which should hopefully lead to short development time. I'll have to ask the next time I talk to Matias.

First, good to seeing great progress of your project!

I like to ask some about bootloader of LPC controller.

(not to mention the LPC11U line supports the drag & drop programming bootloader).

I'm working with NXP LPC11U35/501 and disappointed a bit at its bootloader. The NXP bootloader is not as "Drap and Drop" as what I expected, on Mac and Linux I cannot program with the "DnD" method and I have to use terminal commands(like umount, dd) to upload my firmware. Not so user friendly.

Does your LPC11U37 has better bootloader and you can do "Drag and Drop" on Mac and Linux?

And I have no experience other Cortex M's, so I don't know the NXP booloader is excellent or not in comparison with other Cortex's like STM. Did you try other Cortex's yet? How do you think?
The prototype controllers I have are currently built with the LPC11U35, but I don't believe the bootloader is much different (or at all). The LPC11U6X series I believe is a slightly different bootloader but I haven't had a chance to order test parts (I would also have to redo the board layout).

As for STM and others, I haven't had any time (or spare R&D funds) to take them for a spin yet, but I know that they emulate the drag and drop setup with a secondary chip on the board, much like a standard arduino. We're at a point where we need to lock down the design and so switching the chip may have to come a bit later. As for a Mac & Linux solution, we may just have to develop a desktop app  (much like many other peripherals) for burning the firmware. Unforunately there's only so much time in the day, however once I have some stable controllers running I'll be sending them out (along with a full beta kit) to a couple of people who have been offering to help with the firmware.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: indigoglyph on Mon, 14 July 2014, 06:01:37
This keyboard really is as close to perfect as I can imagine. Concave 'wells' will be nice, but I'll be happy to buy an upgrade kit for this, if one appears ;)

Just one question, @AcidFire. To clarify, how many different products should we be expecting in the CrowdSupply campaign, now? Reading between the lines, I'm expecting one fixed (flat) keyboard and one two-part (tent-able) one - or have I missed something?

- M
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: conandy on Mon, 14 July 2014, 09:45:04
@indigoglyph

The pictures at this site I think should demonstrate what the initial offering will be like: adjustable flat or tented with adjustable thumb clusters and F-keys.  Separate halves, not a single keyboard. 

https://www.crowdsupply.com/multiplxd/axios-keyboard

Can't wait! 
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: christianfrd3 on Tue, 15 July 2014, 09:27:58
what color will the pcb's be? i was wondering if it would look nice in a clear acrylic case with a black pcb or something.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: JackMills on Wed, 16 July 2014, 04:40:34
...
Just one question, @AcidFire. To clarify, how many different products should we be expecting in the CrowdSupply campaign, now? Reading between the lines, I'm expecting one fixed (flat) keyboard and one two-part (tent-able) one - or have I missed something?

I asked more or less the same question on the new forum for the Axios, which is maintained by AcidFire.

http://forums.multiplxd.com/threads/options-or-editions.8/ (http://forums.multiplxd.com/threads/options-or-editions.8/)

This was the answer:

"At this point we're not looking to do a single case board design like that one, however the combo kits that will be in the campaign (yes there will be combos :D) will come with the pieces needed to connect the halves and make a setup similar to that one."
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 21 July 2014, 17:57:51
I just thought I'd clarify quick as to what you can look forward to in the campaign. Normally, the products will be available as a couple of seperate options:

- Base Kit - The base units, as I've been showing them including the built in tenting support. Separate modules.
- F Row Kit - Addon for the base unit for those who want dedicated f row keys or extras for remapping. Not Included In Base Kit
- Connector Kit - Addon containing parts for connecting the two halves. Will most likely be included with base kit.
- Deluxe Kit - All of the above, plus potentially a few extras.

Now, the Deluxe Kit will typically come at a bit of a premium simply because there are more parts included. For the campaign, I'll be offering the Deluxe kit at the price of the base kit. Also, if we hit a certain goal, these kits will also include a bluetooth upgrade at no extra charge.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: elllit on Wed, 23 July 2014, 14:51:13
soooo.... Deluxe it is!  ;D



Alternate text:

Deluxe, baby!!!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 23 July 2014, 18:15:58
It's update time!

1) First tests with the existing paste masks I have went exceptionally well, I'm just waiting for the new masks to come in to finish the assembly.

2) I'm still waiting for parts on the 3D printer to finish the larger case parts, but all the peices I've done so far where I've cut them in half to fit the printer have worked out really well.

3) Keycaps Are In! Mid June I placed a custom order with Signature Plastics. I now have enough keys to do 5 backlit DSA, and 5 backlit DCS (a grand total of 920 keycaps!). I still need to paint and etch them, but I have a plan in the works for that.
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-55.jpg)

4) I haven't had a chance to print the wrist rest pieces yet (last minute design tweaks), however last night I worked out a rough design for how I might connect the two halves for those who want a single board. Utilizing pieces that are designed to angle 15°, I can create splays for both straight & ergonomic setups.

(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-56.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-57.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-58.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-59.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-60.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-61.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-62.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-63.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-64.jpg)

Currently I've designed it this way because anything I could come up with that was adjustable was also inherently weaker. I'm not completely settled on it yet, but I do like the rigidity they offer once they're tightened down.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Naed on Tue, 29 July 2014, 14:00:10
It's update time!

Darn and double darn you!

You are such a tease! :P
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 29 July 2014, 19:33:44
With new paste masks in hand, I've started assembling the latest electronics:

(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-66.jpg)
This is the new laser cut jig I made for the controller board, with the paste mask visible in the top of the pic. I have a jig like this for each of the new boards, which makes it easy to paste...
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-67.jpg)
and place on these boards, cutting my assembly time down substantially.
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-68.jpg)
And onto the electric skillet for reflow:
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-69.jpg)
Working on one of the large 5x7 clusters (sorry for the blurry pic):
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-70.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-71.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-72.jpg)
These are 0.5mm pitch FPC connectors, and while this method was a bit more expensive to set up (new tools/materials + masks), it's taken a lot of the headache out of the assembly. This will also make it easier to assemble beta units once I've verified these prototypes.

Speaking of prototypes, while I have my handy Kossel Mini printer for prototype parts, a friend of mine is currently printing me a full prototype case on one of his machines at work. While not a fast machine (expected to take all week to print), it'll be the closest I'll have to the final production design and is the last piece I'm waiting on to finish a video & photos for a campaign so I can finally get the funding up.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: anotherjunkie on Thu, 31 July 2014, 10:44:17
For what it's worth, AcidFire, I'm still with you & ready to get my hands on one of these! I almost bought a  Dox for the meantime, but I just can't function without the BT module -- and all the other awesome changes you've made here! Can't wait to see/use the finished version!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kaltar on Fri, 01 August 2014, 18:46:39
Looking more awesome and closer each post!!! :thumb:
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Zisilius on Sat, 02 August 2014, 13:12:15
Oh wow, this is looking so good I can't wait until this goes live so that I can get my grabby hands all over it! haha

The perfect keyboard in my mind, and I love all the work that is going in it, this will definitely be something that I will cherish a number of years down the road. Feels like it's going to be very good quality product, props to you for sticking with this as long as you have and putting all the effort into the community's well being :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Tallbrahh on Sun, 03 August 2014, 10:46:58
Would just like to let you (AcidFire) the dedication towards this is amazing.  Good on you.

It looks like it will be the perfect keyboard. 

Count me in!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: yakitysax on Mon, 04 August 2014, 04:22:38
With new paste masks in hand, I've started assembling the latest electronics:

Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-66.jpg)

This is the new laser cut jig I made for the controller board, with the paste mask visible in the top of the pic. I have a jig like this for each of the new boards, which makes it easy to paste...
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-67.jpg)

and place on these boards, cutting my assembly time down substantially.
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-68.jpg)

And onto the electric skillet for reflow:
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-69.jpg)

Working on one of the large 5x7 clusters (sorry for the blurry pic):
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-70.jpg)

Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-71.jpg)

Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-72.jpg)

These are 0.5mm pitch FPC connectors, and while this method was a bit more expensive to set up (new tools/materials + masks), it's taken a lot of the headache out of the assembly. This will also make it easier to assemble beta units once I've verified these prototypes.

Speaking of prototypes, while I have my handy Kossel Mini printer for prototype parts, a friend of mine is currently printing me a full prototype case on one of his machines at work. While not a fast machine (expected to take all week to print), it'll be the closest I'll have to the final production design and is the last piece I'm waiting on to finish a video & photos for a campaign so I can finally get the funding up.

I was thinking all this time that you have been using a fancy 3D printer (one of the tens of thousands of dollars ones), and all this time you are getting excellent prints with one that is very affordable; that is encouraging as I am in the market for one.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: DSlayerZX on Wed, 06 August 2014, 11:15:01
This project seems to get better and better every time I check back.

The best part is that it seems Acidfire has manufacture already figured out before he starts the campaign vs some other crow funding campaigns.

I'll be waiting patiently for the start of the kick starter campaign.




Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 06 August 2014, 13:27:12
Thanks for all the encouragement guys, as always it's a huge help and definitely a motivator :D

This project seems to get better and better every time I check back.

The best part is that it seems Acidfire has manufacture already figured out before he starts the campaign vs some other crow funding campaigns.

I'll be waiting patiently for the start of the kick starter campaign.
That's always been my biggest concern with a lot of crowdfunding campaigns. They have a prototype, but haven't done the leg work to know exactly where it's being produced, how, and what issues might arise. They also have a tendency to trust the vendors delivery dates (bad bad idea).

Because I know it's been buried in the thread, to reiterate:
** Electronics **
- PCBs - Produced in Canada
- Parts - 95% North American 5% China
- Switches - Produced By Matias (Canada)
- Assembly - Done in house on our PCB line

** Hardware **
- Casing - Produced 20min from my daytime job office
- Hardware - Canadian Vendors
- Keycaps - Produced by SP, painted and laser etched in house

** Packaging **
- Produced locally (boxes) & in house (inserts)
- Packed locally

I also have a minimum of two backups for each vendor, including if something happens with our in house equipment.

I was thinking all this time that you have been using a fancy 3D printer (one of the tens of thousands of dollars ones), and all this time you are getting excellent prints with one that is very affordable; that is encouraging as I am in the market for one.
Currently I'm using an OpenBeam Kossel Mini - Reprap; this printer has absolutely spoiled me. I take it to and from the office everyday (40min drive each way) without having to re-calibrate or service it. This is a prototype unit too, for what that's worth. When I come back from my trip down to Seattle & Portland, I'll be running a OpenBeam Kossel - Pro, which has a much larger build area (250mm vs 170mm) and with the higher end parts on it (injection molded, stuffed with bearings) it'll run faster too. They're also quiet too, I run the Mini sitting no more than 3 ft from me at all times and having a conversation with someone is louder than the printer. I have a couple preordered already for ongoing development & beta unit production. I can't recommend them enough and you can preorder them here (https://www.shopstarter.com/p/ttstam/openbeam-kossel-pro-a-new-type-of-3d-printer/) :D </shameless plug>
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: vivalarevolución on Wed, 06 August 2014, 14:47:40
Thanks for all the encouragement guys, as always it's a huge help and definitely a motivator :D

This project seems to get better and better every time I check back.

The best part is that it seems Acidfire has manufacture already figured out before he starts the campaign vs some other crow funding campaigns.

I'll be waiting patiently for the start of the kick starter campaign.
That's always been my biggest concern with a lot of crowdfunding campaigns. They have a prototype, but haven't done the leg work to know exactly where it's being produced, how, and what issues might arise. They also have a tendency to trust the vendors delivery dates (bad bad idea).

Because I know it's been buried in the thread, to reiterate:
** Electronics **
- PCBs - Produced in Canada
- Parts - 95% North American 5% China
- Switches - Produced By Matias (Canada)
- Assembly - Done in house on our PCB line

** Hardware **
- Casing - Produced 20min from my daytime job office
- Hardware - Canadian Vendors
- Keycaps - Produced by SP, painted and laser etched in house

** Packaging **
- Produced locally (boxes) & in house (inserts)
- Packed locally

I also have a minimum of two backups for each vendor, including if something happens with our in house equipment.

I was thinking all this time that you have been using a fancy 3D printer (one of the tens of thousands of dollars ones), and all this time you are getting excellent prints with one that is very affordable; that is encouraging as I am in the market for one.
Currently I'm using an OpenBeam Kossel Mini - Reprap; this printer has absolutely spoiled me. I take it to and from the office everyday (40min drive each way) without having to re-calibrate or service it. This is a prototype unit too, for what that's worth. When I come back from my trip down to Seattle & Portland, I'll be running a OpenBeam Kossel - Pro, which has a much larger build area (250mm vs 170mm) and with the higher end parts on it (injection molded, stuffed with bearings) it'll run faster too. They're also quiet too, I run the Mini sitting no more than 3 ft from me at all times and having a conversation with someone is louder than the printer. I have a couple preordered already for ongoing development & beta unit production. I can't recommend them enough and you can preorder them here (https://www.shopstarter.com/p/ttstam/openbeam-kossel-pro-a-new-type-of-3d-printer/) :D </shameless plug>


Are Matias switches really produced in Canada, or are those produced in China?  To my understanding, Matias does all their production in China.  They might assemble in Canada.

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 06 August 2014, 17:02:57
That's always been my biggest concern with a lot of crowdfunding campaigns. They have a prototype, but haven't done the leg work to know exactly where it's being produced, how, and what issues might arise. They also have a tendency to trust the vendors delivery dates (bad bad idea).

Because I know it's been buried in the thread, to reiterate:
** Electronics **
- PCBs - Produced in Canada
- Parts - 95% North American 5% China
- Switches - Produced By Matias (Canada)
- Assembly - Done in house on our PCB line

** Hardware **
- Casing - Produced 20min from my daytime job office
- Hardware - Canadian Vendors
- Keycaps - Produced by SP, painted and laser etched in house

** Packaging **
- Produced locally (boxes) & in house (inserts)
- Packed locally

I also have a minimum of two backups for each vendor, including if something happens with our in house equipment.


Are Matias switches really produced in Canada, or are those produced in China?  To my understanding, Matias does all their production in China.  They might assemble in Canada.
They're produced in China I believe, including assembly. I tagged Matias as Canadian since I'm dealing with them and they're based in Canada with me. Of course they're still subject to the same potential issues as anyone else with manufacturing overseas, but given the number of years they've been in business I'm not concerned about the timelines they've given me.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 07 August 2014, 01:00:37
So a thought has occured to me. I'll be in Seattle from the 9th - 11th, and Portland from the 12th - 17th. I also may or may not have a full prototype with me. Would anybody in these areas be interested in a hands on? I can't promise a fully working unit yet (firmware & some hardware troubles), but it will be completely assembled and is what I would consider a near production ready design on the case design.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: linziyi on Thu, 07 August 2014, 14:27:03
Is it possible to install MX switches on the PCB? Never tried matias before :|
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AKmalamute on Thu, 07 August 2014, 17:13:50
So a thought has occured to me. I'll be in Seattle from the 9th - 11th, and Portland from the 12th - 17th. I also may or may not have a full prototype with me. Would anybody in these areas be interested in a hands on? I can't promise a fully working unit yet (firmware & some hardware troubles), but it will be completely assembled and is what I would consider a near production ready design on the case design.

I'm not far from Portland, and yes seeing this keyboard in person sounds cool. Not sure what days will work best for me yet, but I'll PM you sometime this week.

Do you know which end of Portland you'll be on? There's the I-205 half, and the I-5 half ... North/South doesn't really separate them into full quarters although of course it's more driving if a person wants to get kitty-corner to the section they're in...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: etd on Fri, 08 August 2014, 01:33:21
Is it possible to install MX switches on the PCB? Never tried matias before :|
it seems to be possible:
Ok, I need to clarify on the switches. they are not ALPS switches, they are a Cherry MX compatible that Wil be produced by Matias. That means the same pinning, the same dimensions and the same stem as a Cherry MX. it also means the springs are replaceable just like a Cherry MX as well.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: deven.norton on Fri, 08 August 2014, 15:22:42
Hey I tried to sign up for your other forum it keeps giving me the same errors:

Sorry, you must wait longer to create an account.
Something went wrong. Please try again or contact the administrator.

Anyway, I'm super excited about your project having recently stumbled upon it. I'm curious too as to how you might go about implementing the bowled keypads. Anyway keep up the good work and I'm soon at some point I'll be gleefully hurling a small pile of money in your direction just as soon as you give us the chance.

Sincerely yours
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: vvp on Fri, 08 August 2014, 17:18:44
I'm curious too as to how you might go about implementing the bowled keypads.
I'm curious too. I see only two options:
* doing it like Kinesis with a bent PCB (they have a patent for this but it may be expired now)
* doing it like Maltron and that means hand wiring the matrix

I'm trying the Maltron approach here:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=61323.msg1423071#msg1423071
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jeep on Sun, 10 August 2014, 00:36:43
Quote
So a thought has occured to me. I'll be in Seattle from the 9th - 11th, and Portland from the 12th - 17th

Yes!!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Hundrakia on Thu, 14 August 2014, 01:47:54
Hey Acidfire, are you going to be near Grande Prairie at any time in the near to distant future?
I'd love to have a longing look at one of these setups!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: yakitysax on Thu, 14 August 2014, 20:01:30
Can you clarify something on the switches AcidFire: I love Mattias' switches and their design; will these MX compatible switches produced by them use the same design as Mattias' switches except with a MX stem or is it a clone of a MX switch entirely, eschewing Mattias' switch designs entirely? Assuming it uses Mattias' design, will it be the quiet click or click based type? Also, do you know when/if Mattias will sell just the MX compatible switches themselves? I would love to order some of them myself if possible.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: davkol on Fri, 15 August 2014, 01:26:02
Can you clarify something on the switches AcidFire: I love Mattias' switches and their design; will these MX compatible switches produced by them use the same design as Mattias' switches except with a MX stem or is it a clone of a MX switch entirely, eschewing Mattias' switch designs entirely? Assuming it uses Mattias' design, will it be the quiet click or click based type? Also, do you know when/if Mattias will sell just the MX compatible switches themselves? I would love to order some of them myself if possible.
This is has been answered several times in the thread. Last time *5* posts above you. People, learn to read, please.
Is it possible to install MX switches on the PCB? Never tried matias before :|
it seems to be possible:
Ok, I need to clarify on the switches. they are not ALPS switches, they are a Cherry MX compatible that Wil be produced by Matias. That means the same pinning, the same dimensions and the same stem as a Cherry MX. it also means the springs are replaceable just like a Cherry MX as well.

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Fri, 15 August 2014, 04:55:04
This is has been answered several times in the thread. Last time *5* posts above you. People, learn to read, please.
Actually, the post above mostly deals with the form factor and the actuation force. Yakitysax seems interested in the innards (clicky, tactile, etc.).

Granted, the question has indeed been raised in the thread, too, but you have to dig a little more. Besides, There's doesn't seem to be a definite answer on the question, and maybe AcidFire know more about them now... I think I remember reading that the "feeling" (of at least one version of those) was similar to clears, but I may be mistaken. We'll probably know more when the kickstarter is launched, anyway.

Is there any more information available about these switches? It sounds like they’re clone Cherry MX switches, which Matias is handling the manufacturing for... have they announced anything about this publicly? Do you know whether the switches are internally (nearly) identical to MX switches, or are they internally set up differently, and only compatible in pinout, outer housing dimensions, and keycap mount?
No, much of this is in direct response to questions/concerns from me. The switches are still very early in the design stage, but from what I understand they'll be very close to the Cherry mechanically, with some much needed modifications that Cherry has been lacking since the start. As I've mentioned before, I can't say more past that at this time but know that if the Matias produced switches aren't up to snuff (and I seriously doubt that'll be a problem) I have a backup plan in place.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: zipeldiablo on Mon, 18 August 2014, 07:09:02
Sorry for the question if it has been already asked (too many pages...) : will this baby come with backlighting? was looking for the backlit pcb for the ergodox but hey, this will do just as fine, and when will we be able to purchase? (my keyboard is dead so....)
additionnal : do i need to run a software on my computer or is the code within a ship or something? ( cannot launch anything during exam, just wanna know if i can bring it or not)
Thanks!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: davkol on Mon, 18 August 2014, 08:53:48
Optional RGB backlighting IIRC.

There shouldn't be any special software required on the host computer, unless you want to do some remapping and stuff. AcidFire mentioned a portable GUI in Java or something for that.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: zipeldiablo on Mon, 18 August 2014, 12:41:47
Oh sweeet! I'll be waiting for it then, hopefully it wont take to long before release :/
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Mon, 18 August 2014, 14:52:54
Optional RGB backlighting IIRC.
There will be backlighting, but I think that the RGB backlighting will be for a revision. The first kickstarter should be for a single-color backlighting, if I'm not mistaken.

additionnal : do i need to run a software on my computer or is the code within a ship or something? ( cannot launch anything during exam, just wanna know if i can bring it or not)
As said before, no, you won't need any software on the computer, you just have to plug the keyboard and it'll work. You can do you configuration at home (and you may not even need a software, anyway, you may be able to upload the layers with a card reader (?) )

That being said, considering the internal storage, you may have a problem for an exam. You could program the keyboard so that when you type a keyword in an editor, the keyboard will past any wall of text you entered previously. I guess that may be a problem with some kind of exams.

I admit I toyed with the idea of putting man pages and cheat sheets inside the keyboard... When you're not at home and don't have an internet connexion, that can be handy.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: zipeldiablo on Tue, 19 August 2014, 08:05:28
Optional RGB backlighting IIRC.
There will be backlighting, but I think that the RGB backlighting will be for a revision. The first kickstarter should be for a single-color backlighting, if I'm not mistaken.

additionnal : do i need to run a software on my computer or is the code within a ship or something? ( cannot launch anything during exam, just wanna know if i can bring it or not)
As said before, no, you won't need any software on the computer, you just have to plug the keyboard and it'll work. You can do you configuration at home (and you may not even need a software, anyway, you may be able to upload the layers with a card reader (?) )

That being said, considering the internal storage, you may have a problem for an exam. You could program the keyboard so that when you type a keyword in an editor, the keyboard will past any wall of text you entered previously. I guess that may be a problem with some kind of exams.

I admit I toyed with the idea of putting man pages and cheat sheets inside the keyboard... When you're not at home and don't have an internet connexion, that can be handy.

Well if you're good enough you can still hack the exam session and put your internet back on so....
as long as they are not aware that the baby have an internal storage they shouldnt be on my ass, we'll see.
Thanks for the answers guys
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: solarundies on Wed, 20 August 2014, 21:43:33
I just found out about this project and love everything about it. I can't wait to get my hands on one.

Going to keep my eyes on this thread and the crowd funding page.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: cruzin on Wed, 20 August 2014, 23:40:28
I just found out about this project and love everything about it. I can't wait to get my hands on one.

Going to keep my eyes on this thread and the crowd funding page.

I've gone through most of the pages in this thread but I couldn't find a crowd funding page link. I'm definitely interested in getting a kit or two.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Thu, 21 August 2014, 05:15:25
I've gone through most of the pages in this thread but I couldn't find a crowd funding page link. I'm definitely interested in getting a kit or two.
Not yet... I think AcidFire is really adamant about having a device as close to perfect as possible before launching the funding campaign. A lot of people here must be longing for the campaign to start, but if he need the time to do some final tweakings, let be it.

Still, can't wait ^_^

Well if you're good enough you can still hack the exam session and put your internet back on so....
as long as they are not aware that the baby have an internal storage they shouldnt be on my ass, we'll see.
I agree, I just wanted you to be aware of the possible issue.

(If it's possible to get the internet back on computers used for serious exams, I think they should see to replace their sysadmin, though ^_^)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: zipeldiablo on Thu, 21 August 2014, 06:34:43
I agree, I just wanted you to be aware of the possible issue.

(If it's possible to get the internet back on computers used for serious exams, I think they should see to replace their sysadmin, though ^_^)
Computers used for exams are the same that we used everyday (mac actually), every data is store on the server so we log with our normal session or with the exam session and the server sync the file, since everything is connected you can always find your way in : B
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jeep on Fri, 22 August 2014, 02:47:20
You can sign up to get notified when it is ready here:
https://www.crowdsupply.com/multiplxd/axios-keyboard

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: yakitysax on Fri, 29 August 2014, 06:21:37
AcidFire, I hope this is not too forward, but I am curious to know if you are open to releasing the design files for the case you are working on for the Nexus keyboard. It is the most brilliant one I have seen to date and it would save a lot of time to be able to reuse it for future projects like we can with the ErgoDox case design files.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Fri, 29 August 2014, 14:26:43
AcidFire, I hope this is not too forward, but I am curious to know if you are open to releasing the design files for the case you are working on for the Nexus keyboard.
If I understand you correctly, good news, AcidFire is kind enough to develop everything as open source / open hardware if I'm not mistaken.

I'll quote him from the Axios forum:
Quote
[...] Everything is (and forever will be) Open Source. Unfortunately some of the tools I'm using aren't (Altium for electronics & SolidWorks for mechanical) but the choice was made for a faster development cycle. That being said, all the source files will still be released and in a multitude of formats as well. [...] Everything currently lives on a private repo and will be pushed to the public one once the first round of files & firmware are ready to go.

http://forums.multiplxd.com/threads/open-source.5/

It is the most brilliant one I have seen to date
I agree heartfully, and I can't wait for some news...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: XNine on Fri, 29 August 2014, 14:58:49
I've been hunting for a replacement for my Logitech G13.  This looks like it could be the ticket if I can just order and use the left hand board.  Cherry switches will be a nice change from the G13 to game on.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 04 September 2014, 19:15:38
I'm curious too as to how you might go about implementing the bowled keypads.
I'm curious too. I see only two options:
* doing it like Kinesis with a bent PCB (they have a patent for this but it may be expired now)
* doing it like Maltron and that means hand wiring the matrix

I'm trying the Maltron approach here:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=61323.msg1423071#msg1423071
I'm considering taking the individual key PCBs I've already designed for testing, and looking at doing something similar to the FPC connectors I'm using now. Failing that, I'll probably take the Kinesis route since the cost of flex PCBs has come down quite a bit.

Hey Acidfire, are you going to be near Grande Prairie at any time in the near to distant future?
I'd love to have a longing look at one of these setups!
Unfortunately nothing that I'm aware of, but I do have family in both Edmonton and Fort Mac so if that changes I'll let you know :)

Can you clarify something on the switches AcidFire: I love Mattias' switches and their design; will these MX compatible switches produced by them use the same design as Mattias' switches except with a MX stem or is it a clone of a MX switch entirely, eschewing Mattias' switch designs entirely? Assuming it uses Mattias' design, will it be the quiet click or click based type? Also, do you know when/if Mattias will sell just the MX compatible switches themselves? I would love to order some of them myself if possible.

This is has been answered several times in the thread. Last time *5* posts above you. People, learn to read, please.
Actually, the post above mostly deals with the form factor and the actuation force. Yakitysax seems interested in the innards (clicky, tactile, etc.).

-snip-
Unfortunately, we're still in the same state with the switches until I can fund the development of them. I will say however that the final board supports both Cherry & Matias existing footprints, so no matter what the outcome is with the custom switches, we still have plenty to fall back on. As for the custom switches themselves, the plan is for them to debut with me/Multiplxd to start, but we'll also be selling them seperately from the boards at the same prices you can currently get them at (unless there's an unforseen premium from Matias). So don't worry, you'll be able to get ahold of them.

Sorry for the question if it has been already asked (too many pages...) : will this baby come with backlighting? was looking for the backlit pcb for the ergodox but hey, this will do just as fine, and when will we be able to purchase? (my keyboard is dead so....)
additionnal : do i need to run a software on my computer or is the code within a ship or something? ( cannot launch anything during exam, just wanna know if i can bring it or not)
Thanks!
Yes it will. Currently it's single color, though with the new switch design and a transparent housing, RGB is very much a possibility. In the meantime I'm currently exploring options with bicolor 3mm LEDs as well as the flat 5mm RGB which are damn close to fitting the standard cherry profile.

Hey I tried to sign up for your other forum it keeps giving me the same errors:

Sorry, you must wait longer to create an account.
Something went wrong. Please try again or contact the administrator.

Anyway, I'm super excited about your project having recently stumbled upon it. I'm curious too as to how you might go about implementing the bowled keypads. Anyway keep up the good work and I'm soon at some point I'll be gleefully hurling a small pile of money in your direction just as soon as you give us the chance.

Sincerely yours
I'll have to look to see if I can tweak that error message, basically you'll get it when trying to register a common/normal name as that's spambot 101. If you happen to get this message be patient as I have to approve accounts on a case by case basis.

I've been hunting for a replacement for my Logitech G13.  This looks like it could be the ticket if I can just order and use the left hand board.  Cherry switches will be a nice change from the G13 to game on.
For simplicity's sake we were looking at only offering full kits (as was recommended to me by experience crowd funding folk) for the initial campaign, but we've had so many requests for single sides that we're now looking at how we'll do it, ie kit only, assembled only, etc etc. But we'll do what we can to make it happen.

I've gone through most of the pages in this thread but I couldn't find a crowd funding page link. I'm definitely interested in getting a kit or two.
Not yet... I think AcidFire is really adamant about having a device as close to perfect as possible before launching the funding campaign. A lot of people here must be longing for the campaign to start, but if he need the time to do some final tweakings, let be it.

Still, can't wait ^_^
I should clarify, I'm not chasing perfect, just reasonable (and manufacturable!) ;). I've seen far too many people release projects too early in the development cycle resulting in hostility towards the project by the final release and general negativity towards the guys producing it. When it's finally up for funding, it's because I have everything lined up and I know without some kind of act-of-god disaster, I can deliver when I promise (or sooner).

Also, I feel horrible that I haven't been able to update since getting back from vacation, it's been a busy couple of weeks to say the least. First, for those of you who were hoping to sit down with me and the prototype while I was in Seattle & Portland, I'm so sorry I missed you. As I was gently reminded by my better half, I was suppose to be relaxing and taking a little bit of a break before diving back into the home stretch when we got back (you should have seen the look I got when I suggested a meetup on my birthday).

However, when I was visiting with my friend in Seattle he was able to finally provide me with the parts for the 3D printed full size prototype:
[img]http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-73.jpg[/img[

I've also received the newest revisions of the IO boards (USB & I2C) that fit this case properly and I'm currently working to get them populated so that I can get a full prototype up and running for testing. (Will upload pics later tonight.)

I'm also currently struggling a little bit with the wrist rest when the board is tented, since to doesn't have it's own support it becomes a point of leverage which off balances the unit. I have a couple of different solutions I'm drafting and testing.

Lastly, on top of all this development work, I'll be showing at the Calgary Mini Maker Faire this weekend (Sept 6-7) and the Portland Mini Maker Faire in the Crowd Supply booth the following weekend (Sept 13-14).

Oh and JEEP I'm terribly sorry that I wasn't able to catch up with you on my way back through Seattle, and to Koren and the rest who have been awesome in helping to answer questions in my absence, you guys rock :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: FiskFisk33 on Wed, 24 September 2014, 07:11:34
is there any date set for the campaign? or at least any guesses?  :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jeep on Fri, 26 September 2014, 01:23:11
No real guesses from the masses, I think. It's close, though. As long as perfection doesn't defeat good enough...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: hoggy on Fri, 26 September 2014, 01:40:50
No real guesses from the masses, I think. It's close, though. As long as perfection doesn't defeat good enough...
With you on that one, Arthur C Clark's short story Superiority says it rather well.

This isn't meant as a slight to anyone, just a comment on the previous post.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jeep on Fri, 26 September 2014, 02:15:39
I talked to Acidfire briefly, I don't think it will... It does sound like he wants to ensure that everything is ready for production before starting up the campaign, though.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: JackMills on Fri, 26 September 2014, 04:44:21
I talked to Acidfire briefly, I don't think it will... It does sound like he wants to ensure that everything is ready for production before starting up the campaign, though.
Haste makes waste. And if I understood Acidfire correctly on the Axios forum, he is really aiming at making a good campaign with some extras.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jeep on Fri, 26 September 2014, 22:33:22
Agreed... but then you can also say "the early bird gets the worm"

The Matias Ergo Pro isn't nearly as cool, but it is likely to be out first... Although, it is easy to argue that is a different market.

-JEEP
Joe Peterson
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kittykatmax on Sat, 27 September 2014, 00:45:49
Agreed... but then you can also say "the early bird gets the worm"

The Matias Ergo Pro isn't nearly as cool, but it is likely to be out first... Although, it is easy to argue that is a different market.

-JEEP
Joe Peterson

The Matias Ergo Pro uses a staggered layout, which is NOT ergonomic at all.  It also doesn't tent as much as I'd like.  It also doesn't do anything to lessen the work of your pinky fingers.  Finally, I've read Amazon reviews of their other keyboards, and got the impression there were some quality control issues (one person received three bad keyboards in a row) compounded by lackluster customer support (users never receiving a response from support or getting bad info), which would make me hesitate to buy a keyboard from them. 

I'm more concerned with AcidFire having competition from Keyboard.io, although they're also still at the drawing board from the looks of things.  Showed what looked like a finished design in aluminium and wood, but I later read the aluminum was a no-go, because it made the keyboard as heavy as an entire laptop. Whoops!  The somewhat butterfly shape might also be a bit of a tough sell (for men, at least).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 27 September 2014, 02:19:28
The Matias Ergo Pro uses a staggered layout, which is NOT ergonomic at all.  It also doesn't tent as much as I'd like.  It also doesn't do anything to lessen the work of your pinky fingers.  Finally, I've read Amazon reviews of their other keyboards, and got the impression there were some quality control issues (one person received three bad keyboards in a row) compounded by lackluster customer support (users never receiving a response from support or getting bad info), which would make me hesitate to buy a keyboard from them.
For what it’s worth, this is contrary to my experience or the experience of other people I know. I think Matias’s build quality is in general quite solid, and their customer support is pretty friendly and willing to do what they can to make things right when problems arise. Edgar Matias himself is very accessible via twitter and email, and is active in soliciting feedback and discussion here on Geekhack.

Quote
I'm more concerned with AcidFire having competition from Keyboard.io, although they're also still at the drawing board from the looks of things.  Showed what looked like a finished design in aluminium and wood, but I later read the aluminum was a no-go, because it made the keyboard as heavy as an entire laptop. Whoops!  The somewhat butterfly shape might also be a bit of a tough sell (for men, at least).
Why “concerned”? Seems like the more good options there are for people to get more comfortable typing experiences, the better. Between the Maltron, the Kinesis Advantage, keyboard.io, the Matias ErgoPro, the Truly Ergonomic, the Ergodox, etc., there is suddenly a great variety of options for people with different hand shapes and preferences. I think the whole ergonomic keyboard market has lots of room to expand, and giving people more options (some fully scuplted, some programmable, some portable, some similar to standard keyboards, some with many extra keys, some with few keys) helps ensure that customers looking to avoid injuries and improve comfort and efficiency can find something that works for them.

My expectation is that both keyboard.io and this Axios project are going to discover that manufacturing and distributing things at scale is a lot harder than it seems from outside, and costs a lot. I hope they both make it to market, and ASAP, but I wouldn’t be too surprised if it takes both of them at least another 8–12 months to ship a product, or if their products end up in the $200–300 range.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Sat, 27 September 2014, 06:00:35
The Matias Ergo Pro uses a staggered layout, which is NOT ergonomic at all.
I think that a staggered layout can be ergonomic (to some extent) if you don't use it the usual way (and remap it), as long as the left part is modified to be a mirror version of the right part.

I'll try to explain: if you have a classic keyboard, staggered, put your right hand on J-I-O-P. The shape is quite close to the relative lenght of fingers, and your hand points inwards, which is also good. The fact that the keyboard is staggered is ideal in the sense that now that your hand points inwards, U-8-9-0 and M-K-L-, (or something like that on a qwerty, I use a strange layout) are directly up and down.

There's a near match between the right part of a staggered keyboard and an Ergodox, if you can see what I mean.

But in fact, I could even live with a staggered keyboard using the usual position (J-K-L-,) for the right hand. It's the left one that is just awful.

The problem is... you can't do this on the right side because of the fact that the keyboard isn't symmetric.


That could be just a random thought, but actually, there is at least one staggered keyboard *with symmetry* : the µTron.
(http://www.luxurylaunches.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/μTRON_Keyboard_4-thumb-450x206.jpg)

There's a lot of interesting tricks in this one, especially when you look at the keys profiles (such as the thumb ones):
(http://luxurylaunches.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/μTRON_Keyboard_1-thumb-450x378.jpg)

I could have been interested in it, should it have been in the ~150$ range. But at three time the price, I think that there's better alternatives.


Especially the one we're all waiting here ^_^ (I want news, too ^_^)


(The Keyboard.io solution is nice, too, but I prefer a two-part keyboard, tentable, not fond of the thumb keys, and there's not enough keys for my taste as a programmer, and worse, one that also use often accentuated characters... But as far as design is concerned, it's one of the nicest variations on ergonomic keyboards, and it probably feels far better than most commercial alternatives. Pretty sure there's enough interest for both projects to find enough happy typists)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: caseyandgina on Mon, 29 September 2014, 20:51:19
Just awesome! I cannot wait to empty my wallet frequently in acidfire' general direction. I hope lots of different modules come out over time.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: dshk on Thu, 02 October 2014, 20:18:03
I am happy that I found this keyboard. As far as I see, there are no alternatives of it. It has many keys which is good for coding and accented characters, it has a matrix layout, 3D shape and it is programmable.

I am using Kinesis Advantage, which is very comfortable, programmable, but it has very few keys: after adding the accented characters I need, I left with only three symbols (, . ; ), and when I design a layout, I have to choose between good layout for system administration or for coding, not both.

Maltron is 3D and matrix. But while it has many additional keys, these are not accessible without moving my entire hand (I do not have one, I just look at its photos). It has full value function keys, so if you use them rarely, they can be reused. The deal-breaker is that it is not programmable.

Ergodox has a matrix layout and it is programmable. But it is not 3D and it has relatively few keys.

And so on. Regarding price, I believe that the keyboard is one of my most importart tool. Even if it costs $500 (which is not true) that would be still less than the price of a single good monitor.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: conandy on Fri, 03 October 2014, 01:14:54
Hey, guys.  As I just watched another Ergodox group buy pass me by on Massdrop, I was wondering how this project is going.  Haven't seen any updates in a few weeks, Acidfire.  How are things coming?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: davkol on Fri, 03 October 2014, 05:37:12
Maltron is 3D and matrix. But while it has many additional keys, these are not accessible without moving my entire hand (I do not have one, I just look at its photos). It has full value function keys, so if you use them rarely, they can be reused. The deal-breaker is that it is not programmable.
It *is*, if you make a custom order. I think I've seen that option listed somewhere at their website.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: lavalamp on Sat, 04 October 2014, 02:30:40
Is there a prospective key mapping for this keyboard?  In particular assuming a US-QWERTY style layout, where are the square bracket / curly brace keys located?

Any thought as to an additional column of pinky keys?  Yes, extra pinky keys are not ergonomic, but they are friendlier to a computer programmer with 35 years of QWERTY touch typing experience.  :)

With only 6 columns for the right hand, all these keys need to be relocated: equal/plus, backspace, closing square bracket/closing curly brace, backslash/pipe, enter and (assuming a 1.75u right shift) the extra function key.

But with 7 columns, this right hand layout is possible:

6 7 8 9 0 - =
y u i o p [ ]
h j k l ; ' <return>
n m , . / <shift> <function>

which would only require relocating the backspace (presumably to the thumb cluster) and backslash/pipe keys (perhaps immediately below the backquote/tilde key to the left of the Q key),  with 7 columns, the left hand layout could be this:

<ESC> ` 1 2 3 4 5
<TAB> \ q w e r t
<CTRL> a s d f g
<SHIFT> z x c v b

In the above left hand layout, <CTRL> and <SHIFT> would be at least 1.5u wide.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: dshk on Sat, 04 October 2014, 07:21:14
With only 6 columns for the right hand, all these keys need to be relocated: equal/plus, backspace, closing square bracket/closing curly brace, backslash/pipe, enter and (assuming a 1.75u right shift) the extra function key.

I definitely not against more keys, because it adds flexibility, although only with very diminishing returns as the additional keys are hard to reach. But I assume that you never used a keyboard with a thumb section. Look at Maltron or Kinesis. The backspace and Enter keys have a very good place at the thumbs, it is much-much better, than on a convention non-thumb keyboard.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: eviltobz on Sat, 04 October 2014, 07:42:31
the thumb clusters aren't just about space, enter, backspace & delete though. they're perfect for modifier keys, and with a decent programmable board that can include layer toggles too. so just by holding a thumb key down your entire board can be re-arranged. my ergodox setup gives me numpad and F keys with one button and a bunch of handy symbols and useful Vim keys with another. it keeps you nicely glued to the home keys :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Sat, 04 October 2014, 09:00:53
Is there a prospective key mapping for this keyboard?
There's a forum to discuss layouts on the official forum, although it's quite quiet now.

There will probably be an "example" layout (at least for people new to ergonomics keyboards), but I'm pretty sure that many potential buyers have already their own layout, even on an ISO keyboard. Even US-QWERTY layouts are probably not so common, especially with Dvorak, Colemak and so on.

Most ergonomics keyboards are narrower, and if there is a need for a "default" layout, maybe being close to ergodox / typematrix / Maltron variation of QWERTY is the safest bet.

Any thought as to an additional column of pinky keys?  Yes, extra pinky keys are not ergonomic, but they are friendlier to a computer programmer with 35 years of QWERTY touch typing experience.  :)
As I said before, should it have been my own project, I would have put this additional column, just because after years of ISO-105 (with THREE columns at the right of the right pinkie column, even FOUR on laptops), I find having only one a bit unusual and a possible waste of options.

That being said, in practice, I don't think that's a big issue. The only key needing relocation on US-QWERTY is ]  (there's 7 keys on top row, so 6 7 8 9 0 ) = are OK, even if, as a programmer, I've put = elsewhere since years.

External keys like CAPSLOCK, TAB, BACKSPACE (or ESC) are probably better in the middle part of the keyboard or in the thumb cluster, so that release some pinkie keys on the sides. SHIFT/CTRL can be easier to reach with thumb, too.

In short : just put the ] } key where the ' is on the US-QWERTY, and put the ' " key where the TAB or CAPSLOCK is, and you're done.

It's a bit worse on ISO-105, like AZERTY, since you have to relocate both $ and *, but that's not awful either. Even considering that most people not using AZERTY also have a bunch of accentuated characters to put on the board.


That being said, this discussion on layouts is really interesting, and if you have time, please consider registering the axios forum so that we can discuss layouts there without bothering too much people here just waiting for news about the campaign (one of the reasons of the official forum is to allow layouts and firmware discussions)

And so on. Regarding price, I believe that the keyboard is one of my most importart tool. Even if it costs $500 (which is not true) that would be still less than the price of a single good monitor.
I agree, although there has been quite decent and cheap monitors. I stayed far away from LCD monitors for a long time because of color rendition, but recently, I've bought 22" eIPS from LG for ~150$ which are really, really good for their price (at least, as a monitor for work, heavy gaming may be an issue with the latency, but you can't get low latency AND good colors)


the thumb clusters aren't just about space, enter, backspace & delete though. they're perfect for modifier keys, and with a decent programmable board that can include layer toggles too. so just by holding a thumb key down your entire board can be re-arranged. my ergodox setup gives me numpad and F keys with one button and a bunch of handy symbols and useful Vim keys with another. it keeps you nicely glued to the home keys :)
Completely agree with that. And while I really, really don't like Vim (probably discovered it too late to change my habits to such a degree), I think having arrows near the center row is great, so I have indeed a layer with arrows + Page up/down + home + end on the center row/just above.

Layers can do wonders, anyway.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 06 October 2014, 19:26:13
The Matias Ergo Pro uses a staggered layout, which is NOT ergonomic at all.  It also doesn't tent as much as I'd like.  It also doesn't do anything to lessen the work of your pinky fingers.  Finally, I've read Amazon reviews of their other keyboards, and got the impression there were some quality control issues (one person received three bad keyboards in a row) compounded by lackluster customer support (users never receiving a response from support or getting bad info), which would make me hesitate to buy a keyboard from them.
For what it’s worth, this is contrary to my experience or the experience of other people I know. I think Matias’s build quality is in general quite solid, and their customer support is pretty friendly and willing to do what they can to make things right when problems arise. Edgar Matias himself is very accessible via twitter and email, and is active in soliciting feedback and discussion here on Geekhack.
I'm surprised to hear this as well, given the excellent communication I've had with them. As for the staggered layout, from the conversation I had with them it basically comes down to the law of averages and as we've talked about time and again, makes for a less intimidating purchase for someone. Thankfully after meeting lots of people at the last couple of events, more and more people seem to be willing to make the change for their health :D

I'm more concerned with AcidFire having competition from Keyboard.io, although they're also still at the drawing board from the looks of things.  Showed what looked like a finished design in aluminium and wood, but I later read the aluminum was a no-go, because it made the keyboard as heavy as an entire laptop. Whoops!  The somewhat butterfly shape might also be a bit of a tough sell (for men, at least).
Why “concerned”? Seems like the more good options there are for people to get more comfortable typing experiences, the better. Between the Maltron, the Kinesis Advantage, keyboard.io, the Matias ErgoPro, the Truly Ergonomic, the Ergodox, etc., there is suddenly a great variety of options for people with different hand shapes and preferences. I think the whole ergonomic keyboard market has lots of room to expand, and giving people more options (some fully scuplted, some programmable, some portable, some similar to standard keyboards, some with many extra keys, some with few keys) helps ensure that customers looking to avoid injuries and improve comfort and efficiency can find something that works for them.

My expectation is that both keyboard.io and this Axios project are going to discover that manufacturing and distributing things at scale is a lot harder than it seems from outside, and costs a lot. I hope they both make it to market, and ASAP, but I wouldn’t be too surprised if it takes both of them at least another 8–12 months to ship a product, or if their products end up in the $200–300 range.
It's interesting you bring this up. I've met with Jesse & Kaia (Keyboard.io) and have talked with Steve (VP of Matias) and the common thought is that the more there is on the market, the better for everybody and the more likely you are to find something to fit your needs.

As for production, I can't speak for keyboard.io but I've been involved in bringing products to market before at scale both at work as well as assisting friends, and there's a reason I haven't pushed it to market yet ;) While there is always the potential for unexpected issues, I'm working hard to mitigate them out of the gate (having two backups for every manufacturer, for instance) and to keep the price as close to the projected mark as I can.

There's a forum to discuss layouts on the official forum, although it's quite quiet now.
I know I've been terrible for keeping the forums updated, I've been swamped at work and at home with development. I'll try to get on more ;)

There will probably be an "example" layout (at least for people new to ergonomics keyboards), but I'm pretty sure that many potential buyers have already their own layout, even on an ISO keyboard. Even US-QWERTY layouts are probably not so common, especially with Dvorak, Colemak and so on.

--snip--

That being said, this discussion on layouts is really interesting, and if you have time, please consider registering the axios forum so that we can discuss layouts there without bothering too much people here just waiting for news about the campaign (one of the reasons of the official forum is to allow layouts and firmware discussions)
+1 on this, and while I have been working on the default layouts I haven't quite finished yet. I'll try to share what I have so far soon so I can start collecting feedback.


And so on. Regarding price, I believe that the keyboard is one of my most importart tool. Even if it costs $500 (which is not true) that would be still less than the price of a single good monitor.
I agree, but much of the original goals of this project were to help not only the developers/programmers/keyboard wizards out there, but the average office person as well who can't justify a $500~ board to HR (which is frightening tbh). That being said, there are a few upgrades down the road for those who are heavy keyboard users who want to invest more into their tools ;)

Hey, guys.  As I just watched another Ergodox group buy pass me by on Massdrop, I was wondering how this project is going.  Haven't seen any updates in a few weeks, Acidfire.  How are things coming?

Things are going pretty well I think. We had great turn outs at both the Calgary & Portland MMF, introducing more people to the concept and getting some great hands on feedback. Speaking of hands on, one of the things I've noticed from the last couple of shows, and even bringing the units out for friends, was that the built in tenting stand had way too much flex to it. So I took a second look at a concept I had originally scrapped:
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-74.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-76.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-77.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-78.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-79.jpg)
This new stand is incredibly rigid, thanks in part to a small sliding part in the "kickstand":
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-80.jpg)
Unfortunately I haven't had a chance yet to take pictures of it installed, but trust me when I say the stability is impressive and the flex has disappeared completely. Because there are fewer parts required, and the case itself no longer requires mounts for the stand, cost for both molds and parts is dropped quite nicely.

As things seem to on this project, this little breakthrough snowballed into another; the connecting piece. A couple posts back I shared a design I had for a modular connector between the two halves and while I liked the concept, there was too much going wrong in practice. With this new design however, I'm able to let the kickstands connect via a third piece which if the currently printed parts are any indication, is quite stable and mobile friendly:
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-75.jpg)
(note that these parts are using an older connector piece, I have a new design in the works)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-81.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-82.jpg)
because some things are changing with the main case design, I haven't rigged up the ergo set with the rests & joints like I did with the straight setup:
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-83.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-84.jpg)
Due to some circumstances at work, I currently don't have access to the 3D printer I've been using. While my friend will be sending me one of his production units in a few weeks (score!), I've ordered another printer that I can refit for dual extruder use that I expect to have on hand by the end of the week. This setup should let me build with proper support material which will result in nicer looking units, faster production of beta units for testers, and make it less likely that I'll end up sticking a knife in my hand again (yes, I've actually bled for this project).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Tue, 07 October 2014, 04:12:05
As for the staggered layout, from the conversation I had with them it basically comes down to the law of averages and as we've talked about time and again, makes for a less intimidating purchase for someone.
I think they could make at least a tiny step, and while keeping the staggered layout, making it symmetric. The staggered layout is really only awful for the left hand. There's no valid reason for having a non-symmetric layout, when we have symmetric hands.

Most of the time, some of the decisions the keyboard builders make no sense. For example, most of the time with split layouts, 'b' key is on the left side. While most users are right-handed and would feel the 'b' key more at ease on the right side.


I know I've been terrible for keeping the forums updated, I've been swamped at work and at home with development. I'll try to get on more ;)
Oh, I wasn't thinking about you at all when I was writing that. It's just that the layouts discussions will probably become more heated when we are closer to release. The fact that the forums are quite now is not a problem, I just wanted to warn him that replies could be a little slow, but I'm sure that several people beside me would still read his post there and reply.

I agree, but much of the original goals of this project were to help not only the developers/programmers/keyboard wizards out there, but the average office person as well who can't justify a $500~ board to HR (which is frightening tbh).
When keys can be close to 1$ and some manufacturers have to use tricks like bended circuits, I don't really find this frightening... But at this price, you'd want a product as close to perfect as possible: really good ergonomics, durability, good materials, customizable, etc.



As things seem to on this project, this little breakthrough snowballed into another; the connecting piece. (snip)
Seems really nice... Can't wait to see it real!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: kittykatmax on Thu, 09 October 2014, 15:32:55
SOOO happy to see how your project is progressing, AcidFire.   I am super excited to get my hands on one, but content to wait until it's ready. :)

With regards to various comments on my previous post:

I am not anti-Matias, which I'm afraid I may have come across as.  The worst feedback on Amazon was for Matias' Quiet Pro keyboard in particular - and of course, not everyone had bad things to say.  It could have simply been a bad batch, or (although it seems unlikely) competitors trying to hurt their reputation.  Still, the feedback was enough to concern me, especially since Matias didn't respond.  Given some of the complaints included bad customer service, one is more inclined to believe (which doesn't make it true), in the face of that lack of response.  Fair expectation or not or not, Matias would be wise to check out and respond to feedback on the Amazon site, since a lot of people go there to check out end user experiences for products - and yes, I realize they must be taken with a grain of salt.  Still, for perspective, I just put in a positive comment for a $12 laundry additive on Amazon and within an hour or two (!) got feedback from the manufacturer, telling me I didn't have to use it for every load, that I could stretch the product out so a bottle would last a year, and giving me tips on how best to avoid future laundry issues.  They gave me advice that would cause me to buy less of their product!!!  Who does that?  Now THAT is impressive as heck, especially since my post was singing the product's praises.

Koren, how a staggered layout could be finagled to create an ergonomic setup doesn't change the reality of the Matias Ergo Pro and its standard staggered layout.  Their Ergo Pro product is an admirable one, with several very positive changes when held against a standard keyboard layout.  If I didn't know about AcidFire's Axios keyboard and Keyboard.io, I would definitely have been inclined to jump on board.   Since I do know, I also know the Ergo Pro just doesn't do as much as it could - as much as I NEED.  In the very least, I (personally, for what little it's worth) think at least a symmetrically staggered layout (like the uTron that Koren mentioned) would have been a reasonable compromise in out-of-the-box usability vs. ergonomics.  People would only need to relearn touch typing for the left hand.

Maybe I'm unique, but from the perspective of THIS end user, if you're going to shell out $200 or more for an ergonomic keyboard, you're also willing to put up with some ramp-up time in getting used to that keyboard.  There are plenty of "safe" (and as cheap as $30) ergo boards out there already.  If I were too non-committal to be willing to make some changes in how I type to spare myself harm or discomfort, I imagine I'd be more inclined to go for one of those.   Also, in my particular case, my left pinky is my weakest, most problematic finger for typing (not that any of them are that great at this point), so this (and the more typical ergo boards) just wouldn't cut it for me as is; a symmetrical stagger or matrix keyboard layout would better accommodate my particular needs, which is well worth relearning/adjusting how to touch type.

As to my fears about Keyboard.io vs. AcidFire's product, I wasn't wishing ill of the Keyboard.io group, as I have been following their project with interest.  The chick in me also can't help that "ooohh, pretty!" reaction. lol  I was just worried (selfishly) that it might discourage AcidFire in some way.  Happy to see it doesn't/won't!  Not everyone "collects" keyboards, and these, of necessity, won't be cheap.  That said, depending upon final features and price (and how its release date corresponds with the Axios release date), I may find myself unable to resist getting a Keyboard.io as well - whether to keep me going until AcidFire's comes out, or as an alternate board at another computer/for use with tablets/laptops. We have enough computers and gadgets around the house that I can manage to justify it to myself within reason. lol  There's also the fact that the Axios was also supposed to be my birthday present (when crowd sourcing was estimated for July), so I could justify one as my belated birthday gift and the other as a Christmas gift. ;)

One last thought - AcidFire, you might consider changing the "Nexus" to "Axios" in the thread title to get more brand awareness going.  I must shamefully confess that I had to look up the current keyboard name, as I had forgotten it.





 
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 09 October 2014, 16:20:06
I think they could make at least a tiny step, and while keeping the staggered layout, making it symmetric. The staggered layout is really only awful for the left hand. There's no valid reason for having a non-symmetric layout, when we have symmetric hands.
There’s a perfectly valid reason: it’s what people are used to.

But anyway, the staggered layout is really awful for both hands; a hand is not shaped like a rectangle or a parallelogram.

Quote
Most of the time, some of the decisions the keyboard builders make no sense. For example, most of the time with split layouts, 'b' key is on the left side. While most users are right-handed and would feel the 'b' key more at ease on the right side.
'B' is equally far from both home row positions. There’s no a priori obvious side for it to be on. However, typing schools have been teaching people to use their left index finger for the 'B' key for almost a century now, so if one side has to be picked, we might as well follow convention.

The one that annoys me is the '6' key, which is clearly closer to the left hand, but often gets stuck on the right side of a split keyboard.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: davkol on Thu, 09 October 2014, 17:04:42
Quote
Most of the time, some of the decisions the keyboard builders make no sense. For example, most of the time with split layouts, 'b' key is on the left side. While most users are right-handed and would feel the 'b' key more at ease on the right side.
'B' is equally far from both home row positions. There’s no a priori obvious side for it to be on. However, typing schools have been teaching people to use their left index finger for the 'B' key for almost a century now, so if one side has to be picked, we might as well follow convention.
Not almost a century, but over 130 years now. Striking TGB with the left index finger and YHN with the right one is already recommended in Ms. Longley's Type-writer lessons (1882).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Thu, 09 October 2014, 17:23:38
Koren, how a staggered layout could be finagled to create an ergonomic setup doesn't change the reality of the Matias Ergo Pro and its standard staggered layout.
I fully agree with this (and with most, if not all, of the rest of your post, in fact).


There’s a perfectly valid reason: it’s what people are used to.
From a commercial point of view, I agree, it's a perfectly valid one. I was speaking of "valid" reasons that doesn't involve habits. Should have been more clear on that.

I don't expect "classic" keyboards disappearing anytime soon, but there is a market for ergonomics keyboards, and when you're ready to sell a split keyboard (or mechanical touch keyboard), you could sometimes consider a slight change in the staggering (at least, an inward staggering is better than an outward one, and most people won't even notice the change at first glance on a split keyboard). I'd say that Matias products don't really compete with the "standardized" keyboard you buy in a supermarket.

But I fully agree that consumer habits plays a great part in commercial choices. Or we would have seen some changes in layouts... even if I don't think you'll type much more quickly on a dvorak after training, a good layout is still more confortable.


Just to be clear, I'm not fond of Dvorak per se, it's just an example... for example, I kind of prefer roll over strict alternating hands, because when I play music, alternating hands is always harder to perform at high speed than rolls. And classic layouts are NOT random or even worse designed to slow down typing... they're just designed so that the top row is used more often


'B' is equally far from both home row positions. There’s no a priori obvious side for it to be on.
That's true, but right-handed people usually flex far more easily their right forefinger inwards than their left one (it's a thing that bothered me a bit when I used a split keyboard for the first time, and when I discussed this with other people, I haven't found many counter-example of this).

But I think you're right for the reason:
However, typing schools have been teaching people to use their left index finger for the 'B' key for almost a century now, so if one side has to be picked, we might as well follow convention.
Indeed, except that's not a universal rule. Most "schools" suggest this, though.

The problem: that's for a stupid reason (even if it's a 130-years old one). And linked to the staggered layout. They decided that Z was under A (little finger), thus V under F (forefinger)... and so B is next to V like N is next to M, so it "makes sense" to reach B with left forefinger (I hope I get this right for QWERTY layout, I don't use it).

But with this, when you move your right hand to the bottom row, it moves outwards. With these rules on the left hand, it moves inwards. That doesn't make sense, and it's one of the reasons staggered layout are even more awful (the simple fact that people can't agree on which finger should be used for a given key is a very bad sign).

Some schools make Z under S (ring finger), C under F (forefinger), and B a "neutral" key that can be reached with the more apt hand.


Yes, habits, I know...


The one that annoys me is the '6' key, which is clearly closer to the left hand, but often gets stuck on the right side of a split keyboard.
Yes, I agree, and it's for the very same reason : over F is R, over R is 4 (left forefinger). Over J is U, over U is 7 (right forefinger). If you ignore the staggering when you set the finger rules, 6 becomes "closer" to the right forefinger.

And yes, that's stupid.


I prefer this finger placement :
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-lmOlYy6vWhg/TndHiQ-mR1I/AAAAAAAAAZQ/JskQV3KtFHo/s1600/Position+des+doigts+sur+un+clavier.png)

Which is not the most common one found in schools, indeed (but not unkown either because it's the one my mother learned in typing class), but it makes B neutral and 6 at worse neutral, but rather leaning to the left side.


That being said, we're driving the thread away from its purpose. Keyboards such as the one we're waiting here solve those issues. One more reason to be eager to get one ^_^


And by the way, I thinking about rewriting a typing tutor for Axios (one that can support any layout), so that I can get used to it quickly, except if there's good ones for ergodox that could work... I'm not sure what are the most efficient strategies for training, though, so if anyone here has ideas on this and want to share them, or are interested in such a project, I'd welcome any suggestions (although probably not in this thread, the Axios forums are probably a better place for this)

Not almost a century, but over 130 years now. Striking TGB with the left index finger and YHN with the right one is already recommended in Ms. Longley's Type-writer lessons (1882).
As I said above, I know, and I disagree with TGB being a column that should be reached on the left forefinger. And some typing schools also disagree.

There's a bit of things that were teached in 1880 that have been revised in the century that followed, this could be another one ^_^
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 09 October 2014, 18:12:31
If you try to map out what’s easily reachable on a standard keyboard, you get a picture something along the lines of:
(http://i.imgur.com/BODnxsT.png)

Both Y and B are pretty bad, as are return, backwards delete (“backspace”), right shift, right bracket, backslash, escape, backtick, tab, 1, 2, 5, 6, 7, minus, plus, both ctrl keys, both windows/meta keys, right alt, all the F keys, all the "navigation keys", and to some extent the P key and the bottom row on the left (Z, X, C).

For what it’s worth both the Ergodox and the Axios also have insufficient stagger between columns and a bunch of somewhat unreachable keys. (But of course they are quite a bit better than a standard keyboard.) Using a totally flat keycap profile like DSA makes this problem worse; I would advise anyone with an Ergodox or similar board to use sculpted keycaps.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: caseyandgina on Fri, 10 October 2014, 11:28:28
The one that annoys me is the '6' key, which is clearly closer to the left hand, but often gets stuck on the right side of a split keyboard.

Ironically, it was when I first started using an "ergonomic" keyboard (Microsoft Natural) that I was forced to start using the right hand for the 6.  Now I've stuck with that stupid habit ever since.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Fri, 10 October 2014, 12:12:43
Ironically, it was when I first started using an "ergonomic" keyboard (Microsoft Natural) that I was forced to start using the right hand for the 6.  Now I've stuck with that stupid habit ever since.
There is an "ergonomic" keyboard from Microsoft with the "6" on the right side?

From the oldest Natural Elite/Pro in the 90s to the current 4000/Sculpt, all of them I've seen has the "6" on the left side. I'm curious... It's strange that they would have change this for a particular keyboard.

Is this a "local" layout variation?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: sordna on Fri, 10 October 2014, 14:26:17
The Kinesis Advantage has 6 on the right. I like this and it feels natural to have half the number keys on the left and half on the right hand. It makes sense for symmetrical keyboards IMO.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Fri, 10 October 2014, 15:02:46
The Kinesis Advantage has 6 on the right. I like this and it feels natural to have half the number keys on the left and half on the right hand. It makes sense for symmetrical keyboards IMO.
I'm leaning toward a 1-5 / 6-0 layout on the Axios, too, I'm not confortable with an unbalanced layout for numbers, indeed.

But the problem with split keyboards like the Natural Keyboard is that they keep the staggered layout. With a staggered layout, having the 6 on the right part isn't exactly a great idea. On Kinesis/Maltron, or any row-aligned keyboard, it's perfectly fine.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Hairball on Sun, 19 October 2014, 22:41:49
Hey I'm coming to this thread really late, but I wanted to say how much I'm thrilled at what I'm seeing here!  Little background now if you'll bear with me - it explains how I got here.

I'm a database developer and spend a helluva lot of hours coding, documenting, and emailing.  That's 8-10 hours a day (not counting computer use on my own time.)  I'm a decent touch typist and on the high end do about 95wpm.  I'm a LONG time user of Microsoft Natural keyboards, with the 4000 being my main at home and work for quite a few years now.  I'm aware of how horrible the switches are compared to good mechanical switches, mainly because a coworker/friend of mine let me try out his 2 mechanical keyboards the other day.  Basic layouts with the 10-key, one using Cherry Blues and the other Cherry Browns.  Liked them both.  Was like going back to typing in mud on the Microsoft keyboard :(  I've always really liked the layout on the MS ergonomic keyboards so I thought it shouldn't be *too* hard to find something like that, but with good switches.  I had no idea what I was getting into when I started my research.

Long story short, I've looked at just about every ergo keyboard out there including a lot of long since discontinued ones (not paying $1000+ for a 15 year old used keyboard ;) )  I went to /r/mechanicalkeyboard and geekhack.org here and deskthority.net and a slew of resellers and manufacturers.  The Truly Ergonomic and the Kinesis Advantage (which I was already vaguely aware of) seem close, but have some major issues for me personally.  I was about to give up, but one more search led me to a guy's blog where he essentially built his own Ergodox (sourced it all himself, cut his own acrylic layers, etc.) and he was saying it was *almost* perfect, but not quite right.  He then dropped a little line about something that was the closest to what he wanted to see with a link to this thread.

*BAM* - I read all 50 pages in this thread and hot damn my days ofsearching and research have paid off!  I didn't know it before today, but this is what I've actually been looking for all along. :) 

I was cringing at the thought of spending $200-300 on a good ergonomic mechanical keyboard as my first such device because nothing I had been looking at was quite right and I would have been spending a lot of money on something that I knew wasn't right, but might have been my only option.  I don't have that same reluctance about this project - I swear it really does seem to be exactly what I'm after.

Sorry for going on an on here.  Wanted to really convey how awesome this project is for me.  I've signed up to be notified when the project launches and I'm following this thread, plus the Axios forums :)

Fantastic work, Acid!  Consider me another enthusiastic supporter ready to throw money at this when it's ready.

Note: honestly, I did have a real mechanical keyboard before now since the first PC I built was a parted together 8088 with of course a mechanical keyboard a long, long time ago ;)

edit: because spelling
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: kittykatmax on Sun, 19 October 2014, 23:42:45
Welcome to the party, Hairball! 
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: vatin on Mon, 20 October 2014, 08:37:13
Hey I'm coming to this thread really late, but I wanted to say how much I'm thrilled at what I'm seeing here!  Little background now if you'll bear with me - it explains how I got here.

I'm a database developer and spend a helluva lot of hours coding, documenting, and emailing.  That's 8-10 hours a day (not counting computer use on my own time.)  I'm a decent touch typist and on the high end do about 95wpm.  I'm a LONG time user of Microsoft Natural keyboards, with the 4000 being my main at home and work for quite a few years now.  I'm aware of how horrible the switches are compared to good mechanical switches, mainly because a coworker/friend of mine let me try out his 2 mechanical keyboards the other day.  Basic layouts with the 10-key, one using Cherry Blues and the other Cherry Browns.  Liked them both.  Was like going back to typing in mud on the Microsoft keyboard :(  I've always really liked the layout on the MS ergonomic keyboards so I thought it shouldn't be *too* hard to find something like that, but with good switches.  I had no idea what I was getting into when I started my research.

Long story short, I've looked at just about every ergo keyboard out there including a lot of long since discontinued ones (not paying $1000+ for a 15 year old used keyboard ;) )  I went to /r/mechanicalkeyboard and geekhack.org here and deskthority.net and a slew of resellers and manufacturers.  The Truly Ergonomic and the Kinesis Advantage (which I was already vaguely aware of) seem close, but have some major issues for me personally.  I was about to give up, but one more search led me to a guy's blog where he essentially built his own Ergodox (sourced it all himself, cut his own acrylic layers, etc.) and he was saying it was *almost* perfect, but not quite right.  He then dropped a little line about something that was the closest to what he wanted to see with a link to this thread.

*BAM* - I read all 50 pages in this thread and hot damn my days or searching and research have paid off!  I didn't know it before today, but this is what I've actually been looking for all along. :) 

I was cringing at the thought of spending $200-300 on a good ergonomic mechanical keyboard as my first such device because nothing I had been looking at was quite right and I would have been spending a lot of money on something that I knew wasn't right, but might have been my only option.  I don't have that same reluctance about this project - I swear it really does seem to be exactly what I'm after.

Sorry for going on an on here.  Wanted to really convey how awesome this project is for me.  I've signed up to be notified when the project launches and I'm following this thread, plus the Axios forums :)

Fantastic work, Acid!  Consider me another enthusiastic supporter ready to throw money at this when it's ready.

Note: honestly, I did have a real mechanical keyboard before now since the first PC I built was a parted together 8088 with of course a mechanical keyboard a long, long time ago ;)
Welcome indeed.
I have a kinesis advantage and trust me, it is well worth it.
Takes some adjustment but it'll help you conserve energy throughout the day, you'll be more efficient. They're coming out with a revised model next year so you might want to wait. Much better than any flat traditional keyboard.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: kittykatmax on Mon, 20 October 2014, 11:45:55
Unless they're splitting it and allowing for various tenting degrees, it's still going to fall far short compared to the Axios, which hopefully will also be available next year. 
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: naz on Mon, 20 October 2014, 12:51:35
I'm under the impression that the new kinesis will be very similar, changing the f-buttons to mechanical switches and little more (i never use the f-row, so i really don't care that much about that upgrade). I really doubt they'll split their over 20 years main design (hope i'm wrong though)

Axios is the way to go, if only our dearest acidfire would post updates more often.... (a video would be awesome!) 


Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: hoggy on Mon, 20 October 2014, 13:35:03
Hairball, there's nothing wrong in getting another ergonomic keyboard...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Hairball on Mon, 20 October 2014, 14:15:03
Hairball, there's nothing wrong in getting another ergonomic keyboard...
Oh so you're saying I should get a kinesis *and* the Axios, right? ;)

Actually the biggest problem I have with the layout of the kinesis advantage is how they handled the arrow keys.  I use those a lot and having them split between hands would drive me nuts.  I do use the function keys, but could deal with the non-mechanical nature of the current version.  It does have the vertical key layout (columns vs. staggered) so that would be a plus and I suspect their key wells would be interesting.  I'm just not sure about those horrible arrow keys and the lack of tenting.  If the keyboard was $100 that would be one thing, but @ $300 new I would want things to be pretty damn perfect.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: vvp on Mon, 20 October 2014, 14:26:27
Actually the biggest problem I have with the layout of the kinesis advantage is how they handled the arrow keys.
I like them the way they are on kinesis. I know one guy who bought kinesis just because of arrow keys. He was getting a pain in fingers because of using the inverted T arrow keys a lot.
Although, if you do not like it you can swap e.g. '[' with '←' and ']' with '→'. Then you will have them on one side. Having them all in a row is probably better for quick use. On the new kinesis advantage, it may be possible to move them to a proper layer (at least they promise significant firmware improvements). We shell see how it turns out.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: hoggy on Mon, 20 October 2014, 14:52:43
It took me a good while to 'get' the arrow keys on the kinesis, but now I'm used to them, they are so amazingly well placed.

Yes, get a few such boards, that way you can swap easily when you need a change.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Hairball on Mon, 20 October 2014, 15:24:05
Yes, get a few such boards, that way you can swap easily when you need a change.
Oh just "get a few such boards" you say.  What am I, made of money?  hehe I'd love to have the Kinesis Advantage, the Truly Ergonomic and the Ergodox while I wait for the Axios to come along!

I did just spend about an hour here at work using a das keyboard (brown switches) trying to use it enough to get a real idea of what it feels like.  I much prefer the key feel compared to this mushy MS keyboard, but even after that little time the non-ergo design was uncomfortable.  Also, I can tell I really prefer the blue switches to the browns for typing.

So... Acidfire, I'm throwing money at my screen, but nothing's happening ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: dshk on Mon, 20 October 2014, 17:17:30
Actually the biggest problem I have with the layout of the kinesis advantage is how they handled the arrow keys. I use those a lot and having them split between hands would drive me nuts. 

If you use Kinesis Advantage - or I guess any other split keyboard - than you have to learn touch typing anyway. Or at least something similar to touch typing :) Fortunately, it is very easy to learn it on this keyboard. Now, if you touch type, than it does not make any difference where are the keys, if they are easily reachable. And they are! If you look at the Kinesis Advantage, they are pressed with the two stronger fingers and they are near to the base line. The physical arrangement planned for Axios looks nicer, but it means that arrows are pressed with the weaker fingers, including the overloaded pinky. Moreover, the left arrow is farther a bit, but the down arrow is farther by a complete row, compared to Kinesis Advantage.

Of course one of the most important features of Axios, or any open keyboard, that we can all create our own layout! I will make Axios similar to the Kinesis in this regard. Only the small disadvantage will remain, that the left arrow (on the right side, which become the down arrow) will be a bit farther than it is necessary.

Btw, I have yet to learn vi, but I guess that editor has the most perfect cursor movement keys: they are on the baseline (H J K L).

I do use the function keys, but could deal with the non-mechanical nature of the current version.

I tried to touch type with the F keys on Kinesis but I cannot. It is a complete catastrophe. And if only the F1-12 have the rubber keys... But the ESC is also there and the layout switch too.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Hairball on Mon, 20 October 2014, 17:36:44
If you use Kinesis Advantage - or I guess any other split keyboard - than you have to learn touch typing anyway. Or at least something similar to touch typing :) Fortunately, it is very easy to learn it on this keyboard. Now, if you touch type, than it does not make any difference where are the keys, if they are easily reachable. And they are! If you look at the Kinesis Advantage, they are pressed with the two stronger fingers and they are near to the base line. The physical arrangement planned for Axios looks nicer, but it means that arrows are pressed with the weaker fingers, including the overloaded pinky. Moreover, the left arrow is farther a bit, but the down arrow is farther by a complete row, compared to Kinesis Advantage.
Well I'm a touch typist, but I'm not seeing how that helps with the altered arrow keys.  I'm sure I could train myself to use them the way they are laid out on the Kinesis, but at least in concept it seems weird to me.  I get the column vs. staggered keys, the key wells, thumb keys, etc.

Quote
I tried to touch type with the F keys on Kinesis but I cannot. It is a complete catastrophe. And if only the F1-12 have the rubber keys... But the ESC is also there and the layout switch too.
Ouch that bad?  I wasn't paying enough attention and didn't realize ESC was there, too.  I need to find one to demo, but I don't see any resellers in my area.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: dshk on Mon, 20 October 2014, 17:55:13
Ouch that bad?  I wasn't paying enough attention and didn't realize ESC was there, too.  I need to find one to demo, but I don't see any resellers in my area.

If you are typing in English on the Kinesis then you can move the Esc key to the second "\" key for example. The Kinesis is programmable. I cannot do that, because I use many accented characters and there is no unused or rarely used key. Axios is better in this regard, it has much more keys.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: eviltobz on Tue, 21 October 2014, 03:34:52
a common tactic amongst us vim users is to map caps lock to be escape. this is possible with any old keyboard when using the right software, but with the kinesis you can just map whatever you want to wherever you want it, so this old trick is exceedingly simple. similarly i have my cursors all in a row at the bottom of my right hand and the brackets & braces on the left as mentioned earlier.

the only real problem with the kinesis for remapping is that it doesn't have proper support for layers in the way that firmwares like the ergodox or tmk do - there is the keypad button, but that one is the only non-remappable button, it's on a rubber key, only supports toggle switching not momentary, and is only a single layer option. my dox has one momentary layer key on my left thumbcluster that gives me a numpad on the right hand and F-keys on the left, and a different one on the right cluster to give me quick access to a bunch of handy programming symbol characters and stuff on or around the home row. i miss that when i'm on the kinesis. it's the main area where the dox or axios wins out over the kinesis.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: davkol on Tue, 21 October 2014, 04:35:31
The only real problem with the Kinesis Advantage firmware is that not only it doesn't support layers and all the other fancy schmancy stuff, it's also full bugs. I had tough time finding an accessible spot for AltGr and eventually simply remapped Caps Lock to AltGr. Guess what happened next? Left Shift and AltGr (previously Caps Lock) didn't register with keys on the right half (especially N or M) half of the time. Then I went back to my ErgoDox. I know, I know, the kinesis can be remapped on-the-fly, unlike most ErgoDox implementations, but what's the point, if you have to build the muscle memory anyway?

The current situation around ErgoDox firmwares is a mess as well. The Massdrop's backend for the graphical configurator is ridiculously outdated, and the upstream (both Ben's and TMK) is scattered in plenty of bratches.

HaaTa's Keyboard Layout Language (https://www.writelatex.com/read/zzqbdwqjfwwf) appears to be a salvation at this point, if properly implemented.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Naed on Tue, 21 October 2014, 04:39:02
a common tactic amongst us vim users is to map caps lock to be escape. this is possible with any old keyboard when using the right software, but with the kinesis you can just map whatever you want to wherever you want it, so this old trick is exceedingly simple. similarly i have my cursors all in a row at the bottom of my right hand and the brackets & braces on the left as mentioned earlier.

the only real problem with the kinesis for remapping is that it doesn't have proper support for layers in the way that firmwares like the ergodox or tmk do - there is the keypad button, but that one is the only non-remappable button, it's on a rubber key, only supports toggle switching not momentary, and is only a single layer option. my dox has one momentary layer key on my left thumbcluster that gives me a numpad on the right hand and F-keys on the left, and a different one on the right cluster to give me quick access to a bunch of handy programming symbol characters and stuff on or around the home row. i miss that when i'm on the kinesis. it's the main area where the dox or axios wins out over the kinesis.

Mind sharing that layout? Asking because I am curious how that looks.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: eviltobz on Tue, 21 October 2014, 07:37:11
Mind sharing that layout? Asking because I am curious how that looks.
what, the ergodox layout? you can see the source here https://github.com/eviltobz/ergodox-firmware/blob/partial-rewrite/firmware/keyboard/ergodox/layout/tobz-custom.c (https://github.com/eviltobz/ergodox-firmware/blob/partial-rewrite/firmware/keyboard/ergodox/layout/tobz-custom.c) i think that's pretty much what i'm running at the moment. it's from a very old version of ben's partial rewrite code. As a quick overview, the aforementioned momentary layers are available with any of the basic permanent layers. a combination of momentaries puts it into admin mode which is where the bootloader key is, along with layer switches to change the basic operation. it defaults to a colemak layout for osx, but can be switched to a windows optimised version (basically just swapping a few modifiers around) and a qwerty version for games or if i let regular mortals use my sacred keyboard ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Hairball on Tue, 21 October 2014, 17:31:58
I was looking at another design last night from someone on geekhack: http://www.keyboard.io/

That's also a really interesting/intriguing design, but I still feel like the direction Acid's design is going is a better fit for me.  I like the completely separate keyboard halves and the adjustable angle on the thumb cluster + function keys.  Granted, I'd like to have both ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: naz on Tue, 21 October 2014, 19:32:30
I remember reading that the keyboardio can be split in two halfs, but they don't want to show the mechanims just yet. I like the keys on the keyboardio (they were made specially for it), but axios has more of them (i need the arrows to navegate on excel sheets), plus they haven't mention a price yet, so i think it will be more expensive than the axios.

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: dshk on Wed, 22 October 2014, 07:38:52
HaaTa's Keyboard Layout Language (https://www.writelatex.com/read/zzqbdwqjfwwf) appears to be a salvation at this point, if properly implemented.

That is a very interesting project. Now only if the interested parties (USB HID standard body, keyboard and OS manufacturers) recognize that in 2014 keyboards should be able to send scan codes corresponding to Unicode code points instead of restricting keyboards to predefined sets, which are reminescents of the 8 bit code pages from the '80s...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Sat, 25 October 2014, 09:59:28
Now only if the interested parties (USB HID standard body, keyboard and OS manufacturers) recognize that in 2014 keyboards should be able to send scan codes corresponding to Unicode code points instead of restricting keyboards to predefined sets, which are reminescents of the 8 bit code pages from the '80s...
I agree heartfully, but I really doubt that'll happen anytime soon...

Definitively not on from keyboards manufacturers.

They don't need much electronics in their keyboards if they don't have to convert a scancode into a unicode code. Besides, as long as they send scancodes, the electronics is exactly the same for EACH layout. They only have to produce a single type of keyboard, without any specific firmware, and just change the keycaps. The translation is done in the OS.

The best we can hope is an extension of the HID standard that allows a kind of "advanced keyboards" sending unicodes codes*. But I can't see who would push for such an inclusion in the standard...

* still, we should define what's "unicode"... Sending 31 bits values may be a bit much (and still require translation in OS, because I don't think many OS operate on 31bits unicode values), but most solutions like UTF-8 or UTF-16 makes things far more complex. What format should be used for communication?

Linux can usually be seen as a platform where some new things are introduced, but when I look at input devices, I'm sad. They "recently" changed the way IR remotes are handled. You now what?

- now, remotes IR sequences are translated into... keyboard scancodes

- which, obviously, mean that most of the time, a button of your remote will change its behavior if you change... your keyboard layout (!!)

- wait, maybe it's not that bad... you map remote buttons to the bunch of scancodes that refer to "media" functions that should not depend on the layout, which would make more sense? Nope, because X will ignore all keys over 256, which mean most of those special scancodes simply won't work.


Fun and simple example: take numbered keys on an IR remote. Quite useful, usually. Now, in practice:

* If you map them to the KEY_1, KEY_2... scancodes, you'll get, for example "&" when pushing [1] on the remote if you have a standard AZERTY layout selected

* If you map them to the KEY_KP_1, KEY_KP_2... scancodes, you'll get different results depending on the keyboard numpad lock state

* If you map them to the BTN_1, BTN_2... scancodes (which should probably the best idea), X will ignore them

As a result, on my HTPC, the [1] button of my remote is mapped to KEY_BASSBOOST, and I have a keyboard layout that produce a '1' when the KEY_BASSBOOST scancode is received. Other keys uses KEY_FINANCE, KEY_SHOP, KEY_ALTERASE...

That's TOTALLY retarded, even if technically it works.

And if Linux developpers can be satisfied with such a crappy way to handle an IR remote, I don't expect the situation on the keyboard protocol getting better anytime soon.


Using a totally flat keycap profile like DSA makes this problem worse; I would advise anyone with an Ergodox or similar board to use sculpted keycaps.
I'm ready to order a set of sculpted keycaps for my future Axios keyboard, for this very reason, even if that means I'll miss some of the advantages of backlighting (if I want labeled keys), but I'm at lost to source the 1.5 (or 1.25?) keys on the Axios for most rows. Should you have any idea for this, I'm interested.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Scoox on Thu, 30 October 2014, 19:28:02
So... is it just us or is the whole world retarded? It's 7 billion of us and it seems we are the only "idiots" who realise the traditional keyboard is a piece of cr*p. Heck, just a simple  symmetrical layout with some extra thumb keys and middle keys would make a massive difference. This is the sort of thing only a company like Apple, which was able to get away with a one-button mouse for too many years, might be able to step in and do, and then everyone else will start jumping off the Apple cliff like lemmings, as usual.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Thu, 30 October 2014, 23:49:49
Using a totally flat keycap profile like DSA makes this problem worse; I would advise anyone with an Ergodox or similar board to use sculpted keycaps.

I agree with this. I had DSA on my ergodox for a few months and hated it. Then I went in on a Massdrop for DCS ergodox caps and it was like night and day.

So... is it just us or is the whole world retarded? It's 7 billion of us and it seems we are the only "idiots" who realise the traditional keyboard is a piece of cr*p. Heck, just a simple  symmetrical layout with some extra thumb keys and middle keys would make a massive difference. This is the sort of thing only a company like Apple, which was able to get away with a one-button mouse for too many years, might be able to step in and do, and then everyone else will start jumping off the Apple cliff like lemmings, as usual.

I'm amazed by this as well. People spend 8 hours per day typing yet don't manage to give any thought as to what keyboard/mouse they use. Most people don't even bother to learn to touchtype or learn keyboard shortcuts. Just lazy IMO.

It was a revelation to me when I found geekhack and other input device forums. Then the excellent ergodox and the future excellence of the axios.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: dshk on Fri, 31 October 2014, 09:27:00
Lack of public interest in modern, ergonomic keyboards is directly related to the lack of touch typing knowledge. For a hunt and peck typist an ergonomic layout does not help, it can even be a hindrance if the keyboard is split into two halfs. The 22-catch here is that it would be much easier to learn touch typing on a modern keyboard. I also noticed that people think they touch type, while actually they are not, they do not press the same key using the same finger consistently.

However, this does not explain why there is no more demand for tactile switches in a conventional keyboard layout.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: davkol on Fri, 31 October 2014, 09:35:21
I also noticed that people think they touch type, while actually they are not, they do not press the same key using the same finger consistently.
TIL Sean Wrona (or basically any other profficient typist) doesn't touch type… or your definition of touch typing is wrong.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 31 October 2014, 14:56:44
I also noticed that people think they touch type, while actually they are not, they do not press the same key using the same finger consistently.
TIL Sean Wrona (or basically any other profficient typist) doesn't touch type… or your definition of touch typing is wrong.
Couldn’t you have said that in a nicer (less snarky) way?

I’m pretty sure there are “proficient” typists who consistently use one finger per key, considering that typing schools have been training people to do that for a century. Sean Wrona also doesn’t bother with the shift key, because it slows him down.

dshk: From what I understand, the definition of “touch” typing just involves knowing where the keys are by touch rather than needing to find keys by eye, looking at the legends; to “touch type” doesn’t require any specific technique, beyond that. Still, there are ways to be more effective or less effective, and I’m sure many people use uncomfortable, slow, error-prone techniques.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Fri, 31 October 2014, 16:09:37
I’m pretty sure there are “proficient” typists who consistently use one finger per key, considering that typing schools have been training people to do that for a century.
Are they, really? (geniously curious about that, I would be surprised if they do this, although there's been a lot of rules that doesn't make sense in many typing schools, so I probably shouldn't be surprised).

I mean, it's normal, at first, to say that there's a "natural finger" for each key. But there's definitively situations where a finger substitution makes far more sense than using the "normal" finger.

For example, when you have two keys in a roll pattern that normally require using the same finger twice, such as 'yu' (on azerty/qwerty) followed by a character on the left hand. When the index is on the 'y', the hand has moved, and using the middle finger to type the 'u' make more sense, for me, than using the index a second time.

If you learn a musical instrument, you'll be teach "normal" fingers position at first, but after a couple of years, you'll learn dozens of substitutions for certain sequences.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 31 October 2014, 16:57:07
For example, when you have two keys in a roll pattern that normally require using the same finger twice, such as 'yu' (on azerty/qwerty) followed by a character on the left hand. When the index is on the 'y', the hand has moved, and using the middle finger to type the 'u' make more sense, for me, than using the index a second time.
There are almost no words in English that include “yu” in them, so I doubt this comes up all that often. I don’t too often discuss yurts or yuccas, picayune things, or bradyuria. Speaking for myself, I type both “y” and “u” with the same right index finger in such situations. (Though my typing speed only tops out at about 100 WPM, so perhaps I can’t be considered “proficient”.)

The full list from:
egrep -i ".*yu.*" /usr/share/dict/words

Ahantchuyuk, Astrocaryum, ayu, Ayubite, Ayyubid, Banyuls, Brachyura, brachyural, brachyuran, brachyuranic, brachyure, brachyurous, Brachyurus, bradyuria, Bryum, Cambyuskan, Cayubaba, Cayubaban, Cayuga, Cayugan, Cayuse, Cayuvava, Centrosoyus, Chinchasuyu, colipyuria, colyum, colyumist, coyure, dacryuria, dasyure, Dasyuridae, dasyurine, dasyuroid, Dasyurus, Dasyus, embryulcia, embryulcus, Fayumic, gavyuti, guayule, Hiroyuki, Hyrachyus, Jianyun, Kikuyu, Kyu, Kyung, Kyurin, Kyurinish, Leucobryum, Liyuan, muyusa, oxyuriasis, oxyuricide, Oxyuridae, oxyurous, pacouryuva, picayune, picayunish, picayunishly, picayunishness, polyuresis, polyuria, polyuric, pyuria, Ryukyu, sarcodictyum, Seiyuhonto, Seiyukai, skyugle, Stachyuraceae, stachyuraceous, Stachyurus, Syun, Takayuki, Teruyuki, Tuyuneiri, Vayu, Wanyakyusa, Yuan, yuan, Yuapin, yuca, Yucatec, Yucatecan, Yucateco, Yucca, yucca, Yuchi, yuck, yuckel, yucker, yuckle, yucky, Yuechi, yuft, Yuga, yugada, Yugoslav, Yugoslavian, Yugoslavic, yuh, Yuit, Yukaghir, Yuki, Yukian, yukkel, yulan, yule, yuleblock, yuletide, Yuma, Yuman, yummy, Yun, Yunca, Yuncan, yungan, Yunnanese, Yurak, Yurok, yurt, yurta, Yurucare, Yurucarean, Yurucari, Yurujure, Yuruk, Yuruna, Yurupary, yus, yusdrum, Yustaga, yutu, yuzlik, yuzluk

Even for more common such combinations, like “tr” and “mn”, I find that I type both letters with the same finger. Really what those pairs highlight though is that QWERTY is a terrible layout – “gr”, “fr”, “ft”, “br”, “mu”, “nu”, “my”, “ny”, “de”, “ws”, “sw”, “hu”, “lo”. “ki”, &c. &c. should all (to the extent possible) be moved onto different fingers. It’s entirely possible to create a layout where pairs of letters typed on the same finger are extremely rare.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: dshk on Fri, 31 October 2014, 16:57:23
dshk: From what I understand, the definition of “touch” typing just involves knowing where the keys are by touch rather than needing to find keys by eye, looking at the legends; to “touch type” doesn’t require any specific technique, beyond that. Still, there are ways to be more effective or less effective, and I’m sure many people use uncomfortable, slow, error-prone techniques.

Yes, I mean "touch typing as it is taught in school". I am not aware that there are schools which teach touch typing in such a way that a key may be pressed by more than one finger. I do know about Sean Wrona, but he learned typing when he was 3 years old. He is in a different category. I am not sure if anybody - including himself - analyzed his method.

This is only interesting here, because as I see, ergonomic keyboard layouts are mostly beneficial or mostly liked if somebody does touch typing as it is taught in school. This benefit is smaller and smaller as we go closer to the other end of the spectrum, hunt and peck typists, where it has no benefit at all. And a surprisingly low number of people learn touch typing systematically, even in the IT field.

Btw. I got a TrulyErgonomic for testing. So far I truly miss the thumb keys :(
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: davkol on Fri, 31 October 2014, 17:05:34
For example, when you have two keys in a roll pattern that normally require using the same finger twice, such as 'yu' (on azerty/qwerty) followed by a character on the left hand. When the index is on the 'y', the hand has moved, and using the middle finger to type the 'u' make more sense, for me, than using the index a second time.
There are almost no words in English that include “yu” in them, so I doubt this comes up all that often. I don’t too often discuss yurts or yuccas, picayune things, or bradyuria. Speaking for myself, I type both “y” and “u” with the same right index finger in such situations.
Colemak 'he' or say QWERTY 'hj' (not unseen in Nordic languages) is the same case.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 31 October 2014, 17:09:46
Colemak 'he' or say QWERTY 'hj' (not unseen in Nordic languages) is the same case.
Colemak doesn’t put “he” on the same finger...?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: JackMills on Fri, 31 October 2014, 17:17:59
Colemak 'he' or say QWERTY 'hj' (not unseen in Nordic languages) is the same case.
Colemak doesn’t put “he” on the same finger...?
Colemak doesn't put 'he' on the same finger. H is index and e is middle, you have 'hn' which would be index for both.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: davkol on Fri, 31 October 2014, 17:57:08
Colemak 'he' or say QWERTY 'hj' (not unseen in Nordic languages) is the same case.
Colemak doesn’t put “he” on the same finger...?
I guess the point is that in such situation it might be more efficient to move the whole hand and use "non-standard" fingering, instead of (a) slowing down, or (b) stretching the index finger from the home position.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Fri, 31 October 2014, 19:13:06
There are almost no words in English that include “yu” in them, so I doubt this comes up all that often.
That was just an example... and there's not only english (when I'm typing japanese on azerty, I'm using 'yu' quite a lot, actually, and I could fill this page with common japanese words including 'yu') and others layouts can have different digrams on those keys.

Even for more common such combinations, like “tr”
That's actually not really the same situation, and if I chose 'yu' over the more common 'tr' in english, that's because the hand don't move much to reach the 't' (other fingers could stay quite easily on the home position), but it moves more when you try to reach 'y'.

(but I indeed use the middle finger for 'r' when typing 'tr'... actually, I'm using all 4 fingers in a roll to type 'trez' on AZERTY, and 'trez' is really common in french.)

Besides, I only wanted to underline the fact that, at least for some people, fingers substitutions can make sense. And that's hardly a reason to consider that it isn't 'touch typing'.


On a side note, I've been teached, when I was learning accordion, that you should avoid pressing the same key with the same fingers twice in a row (and even more for two different keys). The reasons are not really useful with a keyboard (you increase both the speed and the regularity when pressing the key several times, but you don't need pressing more than twice the same key on a keyboard, and you're not interested in regularity) but I'm pretty sure a part of my typing habits have been inherited from those rules.

Really what those pairs highlight though is that QWERTY is a terrible layout
Indeed... Avoiding digrams on the same finger was my n°1 rule when I designed my own layout.

That's mostly for comfort, though (although comfort is obviously important). I expect the effect of the layout on the typing speed to be marginal at best.

But, back to topic, I expect a bigger gain in comfort by using a keyboard like Axios than by just changing layout on a classical ISO keyboard... Can't wait, really...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: dshk on Fri, 31 October 2014, 19:32:13
Besides, I only wanted to underline the fact that, at least for some people, fingers substitutions can make sense. And that's hardly a reason to consider that it isn't 'touch typing'.

I agree that if the same combination of fingers are consistently used for pressing the same combination of keys, then it is touch typing in every sense. This is just the extension of the specific finger for a specific key principle for multiple keys. The common point is that muscle memory is enough for typing in all of these cases.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 31 October 2014, 19:40:23
I agree that if the same combination of fingers are consistently used for pressing the same combination of keys, then it is touch typing in every sense.
Why does consistency have anything to do with it? Your definition of “touch typing” seems very forced and artificial, and I’m not sure what the point is.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: dshk on Fri, 31 October 2014, 19:57:26
Why does consistency have anything to do with it?
For me the most important benefit of touch typing is that it does not cause distraction. If there is no consistency, than the brain must decide on which finger to use, and the need for a decision distracts from the real task I do.

Your definition of “touch typing” seems very forced and artificial, and I’m not sure what the point is.
To be honest I feel that I accidentally diverted this topic to an offtopic subject, and I hoped that we can agree in this way, and return to Axios :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Sat, 01 November 2014, 01:23:07
Btw. I got a TrulyErgonomic for testing. So far I truly miss the thumb keys :(

I got one and missed the thumb keys of my ergodox as well, so I made the left arrow key the Fn key, and it works quite well for me at work. I love having the arrow keys on the home row as a Fn layer activated by the thumb, then I don't have to move my hand to navigate. If you're interested, my current layout (dvorak) is here (https://trulyergonomic.com/store/layout-designer--configurator--reprogrammable--truly-ergonomic-mechanical-keyboard/#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).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Guntereno on Sun, 09 November 2014, 07:30:46
Just signed up to say that I'm really excited about this project! I've been a user of Microsoft Natural keyboards for many years now and when I felt the urge to try a mechanical keyboard I was disappointed to see the limited selection of split keyboard options available. After doing some research and obsessing about getting an ErgoDox for a while, I stumbled upon this thread this morning and now I've got a new obsession! This is shaping up to be the perfect keyboard and I'll definitely be backing it. I'm really impressed with the care and dedication which has gone into its development.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: assaf758 on Sun, 09 November 2014, 09:20:04
Just as Guntereno, I signed into geekhack to voice my excitement about this project!
Hopefully we will be able to order one soon ;-)
Thx,
Assaf
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Hairball on Sun, 09 November 2014, 11:48:51
Just signed up to say that I'm really excited about this project! I've been a user of Microsoft Natural keyboards for many years now and when I felt the urge to try a mechanical keyboard I was disappointed to see the limited selection of split keyboard options available. After doing some research and obsessing about getting an ErgoDox for a while, I stumbled upon this thread this morning and now I've got a new obsession! This is shaping up to be the perfect keyboard and I'll definitely be backing it. I'm really impressed with the care and dedication which has gone into its development.
You sound just like me :)  Long-time user of the MS Natural keyboards wanting the same sort of idea, but as a mechanical board.  I was also disappointed to see the limited selection out there, but this project does seem to check all the boxes for me.  Can't wait to see it move forward!

/paging Acidfire... ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: dsmitify on Mon, 10 November 2014, 06:38:21
Interesting to see how many have the same history as me :D

Also using Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 and waiting for this one. Ergodox just didn't have everything i wanted.

Can't wait for this project to go live! :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 10 November 2014, 15:36:00
Also using Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 and waiting for this one. Ergodox just didn't have everything i wanted.
Just out of curiosity, which parts of the Ergodox do you dislike?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Niomosy on Mon, 10 November 2014, 20:42:01
Throw me in the MS Ergo 4000 group.  I've used MS Ergo keyboards since 1997.  I've been looking for one like that with reds for ages.  I'm keeping an eye on this one to see how well it works for me.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: dsmitify on Tue, 11 November 2014, 01:23:04
Also using Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 and waiting for this one. Ergodox just didn't have everything i wanted.
Just out of curiosity, which parts of the Ergodox do you dislike?

mostly small stuff like: the thumbs area looked to me like its hard to use (u can only easily reach the first thumbs row), no Bluetooth, flat design
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Niomosy on Sun, 16 November 2014, 04:33:32
Also using Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 and waiting for this one. Ergodox just didn't have everything i wanted.
Just out of curiosity, which parts of the Ergodox do you dislike?

There's a few problems for me with the Ergodox. 

What it ends up boiling down to is layout compromise.  I could probably get a layout that was workable if somewhat odd (brackets and quote keys being the typical issue) but the lack of function keys just throws me right out given the cost. 
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: JackMills on Tue, 18 November 2014, 14:49:28
I am wondering how AcidFire is doing, he hasn't posted in a while. And his own forum is getting spammed :(
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Hairball on Tue, 18 November 2014, 15:14:56
I am wondering how AcidFire is doing, he hasn't posted in a while. And his own forum is getting spammed :(
Noticed that... not much real being posted on his forum and I think it's been a few weeks since we've heard from him.  I gathered he was pretty busy so that's probably all it is, but I'm sure a lot of us are anxious for an update :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: JackMills on Tue, 18 November 2014, 15:21:44
Noticed that... not much real being posted on his forum and I think it's been a few weeks since we've heard from him.  I gathered he was pretty busy so that's probably all it is, but I'm sure a lot of us are anxious for an update :)
It is a pity that his forum is getting spammed, each time I get my hopes up because a new post or topic has been created, only to see a new spam post.
I have absolutely no issue with him taking some time, either for himself or for this project, but because of his enthusiasm throughout this development it seemed a bit strange that he hasn't posted here or on his own forum.   
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Tue, 18 November 2014, 15:53:23
It is a pity that his forum is getting spammed, each time I get my hopes up because a new post or topic has been created, only to see a new spam post.
Same here...

I'm fine with the project taking the time it needs, too. I sure hope everything is fine for AcidFire, though.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 19 November 2014, 18:59:31
Still alive!
Between work and getting all the media/content prepped, I've been keeping my head down a bit more than I would like. I've now completely a couple of sets of parts both in printing and electronically so I've been hard at work getting content ready for the campaign. While I've been slaving away, I was asked to find a part I had mentioned to a friend that could suit his project, and the more and more I looked at it the more I realized it could suit the Axios as well.
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-90.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-91.jpg)
These nifty little bastards sport a 4 way nav, 24 detent rotary wheel, and click center. Originally I was hoping they might make a good mouse substitute, but sadly the 4 way has too long of a reach, and they're fairly large. However, due to their specs, I'm going to build something similar to what you see with the prototype so that I can map them to various editing functions since the rotarys are great for that sort of thing. This device will eventually run the same controller that's in the Axios, but it's on hold until the keyboard is well on it's way.

That did however lead to a bit of determination, since I'm finding more and more myself hating to have to switch between keyboard and mouse. After much googling and pouring over datasheets, I think I've found an excellent pointing device.
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-89.jpg)
It's a hall effect sensor with a rather nice return to center spring as well as click. It's the right size to potentially work as a drop in replacement for a key, and is i2c compatible to boot so it's super simple to hook up. The controller even supports two addresses, so you'd be able to have one on each side if you wanted. Again, while a pleasant discovery it's being set aside until the main project is done, but I'm excited for the prospect of it.

As for those of you who have been asking for the ability to mount the units to a chair or other platform, behold:
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-87.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-88.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-85.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-86.jpg)
Unfortunately my flexible photo arm wasn't the best example platform, but I'm definitely liking the balance so far. Might need a little bit of tweaking but it's definitely a feature that'll be included with the launch units.

As for my poor neglected forums, I'll be working with a friend to get them cleaned up and a bit more spam proofed.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: berserkfan on Wed, 19 November 2014, 20:01:54
I just learned about your awesome keyboard project in development. Up for you, Acidfire! Yes, we need something better than ergodox!

That said, I am really not sure that the thumb spacings will work for someone with smaller hands. I just decided to sell an ergodox almost immediately after I got it, https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62920.0
and the reason was that the thumb spaces were simply unacceptable to me.

If you look at my link (it's a selling link but I also put three photos there), (https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=62920.0;attach=82075;image)
(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=62920.0;attach=82077;image)
(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=62920.0;attach=82079;image)

a person with smaller hands than you, such as me, would never find the three row thumb spaces comfortable. As much as I applaud you for instance, it's not at the point where I would donate (I am selling my ergodox and part of proceeds will go to another project.)

Do you feel that your current 3x3 thumb cluster is a bit too much work for the thumbs? Add to that you have to consider that thumbs are oriented differently from the rest of the fingers. It is still easier for thumbs to move INWARDS rather than horizontally up and down to trigger the keys on your tilted-horizontal 3x3 matrix. Methinks you can still tilt your thumb cluster at least 45 degrees.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: etd on Thu, 20 November 2014, 03:24:44
Good to hear you're OK, AcidFire.

I was wondering if it is possible to optionally swap thumb clusters between halves in order to have 1u keys on bottom row. In this case, middle row is closer to thumbs, therefore more suitable for smaller hands (berserkfan?).

I'm finding more and more myself hating to have to switch between keyboard and mouse.
It would be awesome to have pointing device embedded - e.g. as a stretch goal.

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: JackMills on Thu, 20 November 2014, 03:32:36
Good to hear of you, AcidFire.

...
I'm finding more and more myself hating to have to switch between keyboard and mouse.
It would be awesome to have pointing device embedded - e.g. as a stretch goal.

^^ this, I would like to see this as an extra as well. You are right switching between keyboard and mouse is not something that you want to do, but sometimes you have to. And I can't handle those little pointers in the middle of the keyboard. A bigger pad at a thumb would be interesting. You can give up one thumbkey for that pad, and you can map your mouse button action to any key that is comfortable.


Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: berserkfan on Thu, 20 November 2014, 05:08:34
Good to hear you're OK, AcidFire.

I was wondering if it is possible to optionally swap thumb clusters between halves in order to have 1u keys on bottom row. In this case, middle row is closer to thumbs, therefore more suitable for smaller hands (berserkfan?).

I'm finding more and more myself hating to have to switch between keyboard and mouse.
It would be awesome to have pointing device embedded - e.g. as a stretch goal.

The pointing device idea is good, but I just don't understand why manufacturers are no longer making the effort to research these. We're still stuck in a world where no matter how ergonomic our keyboard and layout is, we must constantly move our hands off the keyboard in order to use the mouse. What wouldn't I give to get a pointing device that doesn't require moving hands away from their happy home row resting position!

If only this could be incorporated on one of the thumb positions somehow! (Note that it doesn't have to be super accurate. It just needs to do regular mousing work. Remember, if you wanted some super mouse for CAD or professional gaming, ultimately you will still need to buy a real dedicated mouse.)

(http://i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/32227377154/Wireless-Finger-Handheld-Optical-font-b-Thumb-b-font-Controlled-font-b-Trackball-b-font-font.jpg)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 20 November 2014, 13:42:43
I just learned about your awesome keyboard project in development. Up for you, Acidfire! Yes, we need something better than ergodox!

That said, I am really not sure that the thumb spacings will work for someone with smaller hands. I just decided to sell an ergodox almost immediately after I got it, https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62920.0
and the reason was that the thumb spaces were simply unacceptable to me.
[snip]
Do you feel that your current 3x3 thumb cluster is a bit too much work for the thumbs? Add to that you have to consider that thumbs are oriented differently from the rest of the fingers. It is still easier for thumbs to move INWARDS rather than horizontally up and down to trigger the keys on your tilted-horizontal 3x3 matrix. Methinks you can still tilt your thumb cluster at least 45 degrees.
Not particularly, and I think you'd be surprised at how well it would fit you hands. The whole reason we started down the road of an adjustable thumb cluster in the first place was the size difference between hands. Both my fiancee and a girl I work with have hands that are a full joint shorter than mine (their fingertips only reach the end of my 2nd row Phalanges) and with the thumb cluster brought right against the body and angled a bit, both found their thumbs resting in the center key which gives you an ideal reach to either side.

Good to hear you're OK, AcidFire.

I was wondering if it is possible to optionally swap thumb clusters between halves in order to have 1u keys on bottom row. In this case, middle row is closer to thumbs, therefore more suitable for smaller hands (berserkfan?).
Absolutely, that's one of the benefits of the modular design. It would take some tweaking of the layouts of course, but it's entirely possible to do.

The pointing device idea is good, but I just don't understand why manufacturers are no longer making the effort to research these. We're still stuck in a world where no matter how ergonomic our keyboard and layout is, we must constantly move our hands off the keyboard in order to use the mouse. What wouldn't I give to get a pointing device that doesn't require moving hands away from their happy home row resting position!

If only this could be incorporated on one of the thumb positions somehow! (Note that it doesn't have to be super accurate. It just needs to do regular mousing work. Remember, if you wanted some super mouse for CAD or professional gaming, ultimately you will still need to buy a real dedicated mouse.)
The problem with doing it with a trackball is size. Anything that will fit + sensors ends up being just a bit bigger than the blackberry trackballs which usually isn't all the comfortable to use. That being said, until I get the chance to explore it properly I won't rule it out either.

Good to hear of you, AcidFire.

...
I'm finding more and more myself hating to have to switch between keyboard and mouse.
It would be awesome to have pointing device embedded - e.g. as a stretch goal.

^^ this, I would like to see this as an extra as well. You are right switching between keyboard and mouse is not something that you want to do, but sometimes you have to. And I can't handle those little pointers in the middle of the keyboard. A bigger pad at a thumb would be interesting. You can give up one thumbkey for that pad, and you can map your mouse button action to any key that is comfortable.

I'll definitely keep it in mind. Even if it isn't part of the initial campaign, it should be something you're able to swap out down the road, and the handy thing is that you don't have to give up another key for the left mouse click, though you may for the right click.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: berserkfan on Thu, 20 November 2014, 18:38:28
Not particularly, and I think you'd be surprised at how well it would fit you hands. The whole reason we started down the road of an adjustable thumb cluster in the first place was the size difference between hands. Both my fiancee and a girl I work with have hands that are a full joint shorter than mine (their fingertips only reach the end of my 2nd row Phalanges) and with the thumb cluster brought right against the body and angled a bit, both found their thumbs resting in the center key which gives you an ideal reach to either side.
[/quote]

AH, I think I see what you're talking about. The picture you're showing isn't the only possible picture. The thumb cluster can still be adjusted/ moved to suit people's hands, is that what you're saying?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 20 November 2014, 19:51:02
AH, I think I see what you're talking about. The picture you're showing isn't the only possible picture. The thumb cluster can still be adjusted/ moved to suit people's hands, is that what you're saying?

Yup, thats the idea. Between angle and distance from the main body, there is a fair bit of flexibility in the hand sizing.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: berserkfan on Thu, 20 November 2014, 21:02:21
AH, I think I see what you're talking about. The picture you're showing isn't the only possible picture. The thumb cluster can still be adjusted/ moved to suit people's hands, is that what you're saying?

Yup, thats the idea. Between angle and distance from the main body, there is a fair bit of flexibility in the hand sizing.

 :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Too bad this forum doesn't have smileys that can applaud, like some fora do.

I do urge you to consider work on a pointing device. Having bought many things each incrementally better than the next, I think it would be very sad if you produced an awesome $250 board that most people thought would be great, then a few months later someone produced another awesome $250 keyboard that incorporated excellent pointing devices, causing people to give up your layout for the newer and more ergonomic keyboard. We're perpetually bleeding cash on slightly better things when will that end?

Really hate it that no manufacturer really wants to devote proper time to incorporating a good trackball onto the keyboard. Most options we've seen are not ergonomic, such as iScorpius which essentially pasted a trackball on the right side of the keyboard. Your 3D keyboard idea is truly the best I have seen in a long time, and it looks manageable too, unlike Kinesis with its one size fits all mentality. (EG on Kinesis homepage, the guy demo-ing the keyboard is clearly a guy with big hands.)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: 0100010 on Thu, 20 November 2014, 22:28:12
-snip- We're still stuck in a world where no matter how ergonomic our keyboard and layout is, we must constantly move our hands off the keyboard in order to use the mouse. What wouldn't I give to get a pointing device that doesn't require moving hands away from their happy home row resting position! -snip-

Does the iGrip count?

(http://the-gadgeteer.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/alphagrip.jpg)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: conandy on Thu, 20 November 2014, 23:47:05
Still alive!

As for those of you who have been asking for the ability to mount the units to a chair or other platform, behold:
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-87.jpg)

Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-88.jpg)

Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-85.jpg)

Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-86.jpg)

Unfortunately my flexible photo arm wasn't the best example platform, but I'm definitely liking the balance so far. Might need a little bit of tweaking but it's definitely a feature that'll be included with the launch units.

As for my poor neglected forums, I'll be working with a friend to get them cleaned up and a bit more spam proofed.

Gotta say those pics of the chair arm mounted Axios are sexy!  Those mounts make it possible to have a seriously nice desk mounted base that could provide tenting and angle.

I am jonesing for one of these to play with.  Already have visions of Kerplop style customizing with track ball, etc.  And a one piece travel version.  etc. 

Glad to see you are still making progress.  I am passing up yet another Ergodox drop in anticipation. 
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 21 November 2014, 00:28:48
Quote
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-86.jpg)
Gotta say those pics of the chair arm mounted Axios are sexy!  Those mounts make it possible to have a seriously nice desk mounted base that could provide tenting and angle.
Though the one pictured is not at the proper height relative to the armrest; the wrist in that picture is bent upward in a way that will put a lot of strain on the finger extensor muscles/tendons.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: JackMills on Fri, 21 November 2014, 00:38:59
Though the one pictured is not at the proper height relative to the armrest; the wrist in that picture is bent upward in a way that will put a lot of strain on the finger extensor muscles/tendons.

More
Still alive!
Between work and getting all the media/content prepped, I've been keeping my head down a bit more than I would like. I've now completely a couple of sets of parts both in printing and electronically so I've been hard at work getting content ready for the campaign. While I've been slaving away, I was asked to find a part I had mentioned to a friend that could suit his project, and the more and more I looked at it the more I realized it could suit the Axios as well.
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-90.jpg)

Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-91.jpg)

These nifty little bastards sport a 4 way nav, 24 detent rotary wheel, and click center. Originally I was hoping they might make a good mouse substitute, but sadly the 4 way has too long of a reach, and they're fairly large. However, due to their specs, I'm going to build something similar to what you see with the prototype so that I can map them to various editing functions since the rotarys are great for that sort of thing. This device will eventually run the same controller that's in the Axios, but it's on hold until the keyboard is well on it's way.

That did however lead to a bit of determination, since I'm finding more and more myself hating to have to switch between keyboard and mouse. After much googling and pouring over datasheets, I think I've found an excellent pointing device.
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-89.jpg)

It's a hall effect sensor with a rather nice return to center spring as well as click. It's the right size to potentially work as a drop in replacement for a key, and is i2c compatible to boot so it's super simple to hook up. The controller even supports two addresses, so you'd be able to have one on each side if you wanted. Again, while a pleasant discovery it's being set aside until the main project is done, but I'm excited for the prospect of it.

As for those of you who have been asking for the ability to mount the units to a chair or other platform, behold:
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-87.jpg)

Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-88.jpg)

Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-85.jpg)

Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-86.jpg)

Unfortunately my flexible photo arm wasn't the best example platform, but I'm definitely liking the balance so far. Might need a little bit of tweaking but it's definitely a feature that'll be included with the launch units.

As for my poor neglected forums, I'll be working with a friend to get them cleaned up and a bit more spam proofed.

I think AcidFire addresses this himself by saying this is not the best example. But as a principle it is a very neat feature to have and it is not offered by similar devices. And although you are correct about the positioning, that still will be a personal preference about comfort. Even with all the features to make it ergonomic as possible, people will have setup that can be far from ideal because they think it feel better.


Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: sheeap on Fri, 21 November 2014, 01:39:07
I think this is the thread I have watched the most in my life. Okay, okay, compared to a lot on here I haven't watched many, but I am very much enjoying the development of this project. Great work AcidFire! And I am only a little biased because I live in Calgary too :D. It was pretty funny how excited I was when I found that out; you know, hometown pride and all. And don't worry, no stalking inclinations here ;).

I would just like to say that I have gone through a decent number of pointing devices for my RSI symptoms, and the best option I have found is to use a trackpad with one hand in conjunction with performing mouse clicks/shortcuts on the keyboard with the other hand. I am currently trying to figure out how to mount the trackpad vertically above my Kinesis Advantage. Here is a link to the related GH post: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65895.0 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65895.0)

Maybe an option down the road for the Axios is to offer a mount that would position a trackpad vertically above the keyboard ;).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: tups on Fri, 21 November 2014, 06:51:03
Personally I'm not interested in mouse emulators on a keyboard (I have a rather odd method of putting the mouse between the halves of my ErgoDox at the moment), but those scrolling hats could be nice for editing (emulating left/right key presses on scroll, for example). Much more interested in seeing the current keyboard prototype in production, however ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: yakitysax on Sat, 22 November 2014, 01:20:09
Still alive!
Between work and getting all the media/content prepped, I've been keeping my head down a bit more than I would like. I've now completely a couple of sets of parts both in printing and electronically so I've been hard at work getting content ready for the campaign. While I've been slaving away, I was asked to find a part I had mentioned to a friend that could suit his project, and the more and more I looked at it the more I realized it could suit the Axios as well.
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-90.jpg)

Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-91.jpg)

These nifty little bastards sport a 4 way nav, 24 detent rotary wheel, and click center. Originally I was hoping they might make a good mouse substitute, but sadly the 4 way has too long of a reach, and they're fairly large. However, due to their specs, I'm going to build something similar to what you see with the prototype so that I can map them to various editing functions since the rotarys are great for that sort of thing. This device will eventually run the same controller that's in the Axios, but it's on hold until the keyboard is well on it's way.

That did however lead to a bit of determination, since I'm finding more and more myself hating to have to switch between keyboard and mouse. After much googling and pouring over datasheets, I think I've found an excellent pointing device.
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-89.jpg)

It's a hall effect sensor with a rather nice return to center spring as well as click. It's the right size to potentially work as a drop in replacement for a key, and is i2c compatible to boot so it's super simple to hook up. The controller even supports two addresses, so you'd be able to have one on each side if you wanted. Again, while a pleasant discovery it's being set aside until the main project is done, but I'm excited for the prospect of it.

As for those of you who have been asking for the ability to mount the units to a chair or other platform, behold:
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-87.jpg)

Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-88.jpg)

Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-85.jpg)

Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-86.jpg)

Unfortunately my flexible photo arm wasn't the best example platform, but I'm definitely liking the balance so far. Might need a little bit of tweaking but it's definitely a feature that'll be included with the launch units.

As for my poor neglected forums, I'll be working with a friend to get them cleaned up and a bit more spam proofed.
It is amusing/interesting that you have arrived at this same solution that I have been working on with a custom keyboard of my own that uses hall effect microjoysticks in it, motivated by recurring friction caused by how incompetently designed keyboards are and OS side key chording limitations. I am not surprised though with how creative and ambitious that you have been already in this design. I'm working on it at present when I have some time, and I'll report back to you once I have it implemented sanely. Surprisingly, out of the joysticks which are suitable for the embedded design arrived at, there is not a great deal of supply for them; additionally, the ones which incorporate a default joystick cap is not that comfortable, and there are a lot that I have tried which require too much force or are too insensitive for this purpose. It is definitely much trial and error finding ones that work here. This is so obviously the solution and logical conclusion of the trackpoints that IBM has utilized and such an effective solution to the problems of keyboarding design that it is shocking that none have done so in a manner which implements this logical conclusion.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Sat, 22 November 2014, 07:36:14
but those scrolling hats could be nice for editing (emulating left/right key presses on scroll, for example).
If you can get spares and they are easy to replace...

Because all products I have with those wheels have had problems with them. After some moderate use, there's plently of issues (including left rotations that produce sometimes right movements). I'm curious if AcidFire's ones are of a higher quality.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: user888 on Sat, 22 November 2014, 09:32:26
@tups I'm with you, no mouse emulators (or an option to order without or disable it). Nothing can beat my Apple Magic Mouse.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Mon, 24 November 2014, 23:17:49
More
Still alive!
Between work and getting all the media/content prepped, I've been keeping my head down a bit more than I would like. I've now completely a couple of sets of parts both in printing and electronically so I've been hard at work getting content ready for the campaign. While I've been slaving away, I was asked to find a part I had mentioned to a friend that could suit his project, and the more and more I looked at it the more I realized it could suit the Axios as well.
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-90.jpg)

Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-91.jpg)

These nifty little bastards sport a 4 way nav, 24 detent rotary wheel, and click center. Originally I was hoping they might make a good mouse substitute, but sadly the 4 way has too long of a reach, and they're fairly large. However, due to their specs, I'm going to build something similar to what you see with the prototype so that I can map them to various editing functions since the rotarys are great for that sort of thing. This device will eventually run the same controller that's in the Axios, but it's on hold until the keyboard is well on it's way.

That did however lead to a bit of determination, since I'm finding more and more myself hating to have to switch between keyboard and mouse. After much googling and pouring over datasheets, I think I've found an excellent pointing device.
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-89.jpg)

It's a hall effect sensor with a rather nice return to center spring as well as click. It's the right size to potentially work as a drop in replacement for a key, and is i2c compatible to boot so it's super simple to hook up. The controller even supports two addresses, so you'd be able to have one on each side if you wanted. Again, while a pleasant discovery it's being set aside until the main project is done, but I'm excited for the prospect of it.

As for those of you who have been asking for the ability to mount the units to a chair or other platform, behold:
Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-87.jpg)

Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-88.jpg)

Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-85.jpg)

Show Image
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-86.jpg)

Unfortunately my flexible photo arm wasn't the best example platform, but I'm definitely liking the balance so far. Might need a little bit of tweaking but it's definitely a feature that'll be included with the launch units.

As for my poor neglected forums, I'll be working with a friend to get them cleaned up and a bit more spam proofed.

Wow, everything's looking great. Really like the mounting and the drop in mouse.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jeep on Tue, 25 November 2014, 12:42:14
Speaking of keycaps, I'm currently looking at swapping the 2x/1x/1x on the big thumb clusters to 1.5x/1.5x/1x to make the secondary row more functional/easier to strike.

This change seems good. After working on the ergodox, I keep complaining about the 1u/2u configuration. I want either 1/1/1 or 1.5/1.5.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: user888 on Wed, 26 November 2014, 00:07:05
@AcidFire, I like your work (and with me a lot of people: 120K times read already!). For what it's worth, I especially like the V-shaped model, the one that's called model-05-03 on this (http://"http://xahlee.info/kbd/axios_keyboard.html") page. I think this keyboard is unique for two main reasons:


The fact that left and right parts are fixed in one case should not be a problem. Just Google for images of Ergodox' on peoples desktop. Most of the people use their Ergodox in an angle of around 10~15ish degrees (a little wider than the model-05-03 proto). One size could fit all in this case. It may not be the most ergonomic solution (I can see that you are striving for the best solution), but hey, as long as 99% is using QWERTY on a traditional keyboard it sure improves things a lot!

Just my 5 cents. I know with 120K reads there are 120K opinions ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 26 November 2014, 18:22:53
I think this is the thread I have watched the most in my life. Okay, okay, compared to a lot on here I haven't watched many, but I am very much enjoying the development of this project. Great work AcidFire! And I am only a little biased because I live in Calgary too :D. It was pretty funny how excited I was when I found that out; you know, hometown pride and all. And don't worry, no stalking inclinations here ;).

I would just like to say that I have gone through a decent number of pointing devices for my RSI symptoms, and the best option I have found is to use a trackpad with one hand in conjunction with performing mouse clicks/shortcuts on the keyboard with the other hand. I am currently trying to figure out how to mount the trackpad vertically above my Kinesis Advantage. Here is a link to the related GH post: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65895.0 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65895.0)

Maybe an option down the road for the Axios is to offer a mount that would position a trackpad vertically above the keyboard ;).

No worries about the stalking, technically I don't live in Calgary so I won't be that easy to stalk ;) That being said there are a few users who are local and once I've gotten the prototype to a level I feel confident having other people put their hands on we'll definitely do a sit down on a weekend.

The trackpad mounting is interesting, I hadn't seen that done before but due to the nature of the design I'm sure we could look at rigging something up down the road. Maybe when the hands on gathering happens you can bring your kinesis and show me how it works for you, I'd love to check out the concept.

Personally I'm not interested in mouse emulators on a keyboard (I have a rather odd method of putting the mouse between the halves of my ErgoDox at the moment), but those scrolling hats could be nice for editing (emulating left/right key presses on scroll, for example). Much more interested in seeing the current keyboard prototype in production, however ;)
@tups I'm with you, no mouse emulators (or an option to order without or disable it). Nothing can beat my Apple Magic Mouse.
And that's why it'll be an optional addon instead of included with the kit. Everyone has their preference, hence  Axios was designed to be adaptable ;)

Though the one pictured is not at the proper height relative to the armrest; the wrist in that picture is bent upward in a way that will put a lot of strain on the finger extensor muscles/tendons.

I think AcidFire addresses this himself by saying this is not the best example. But as a principle it is a very neat feature to have and it is not offered by similar devices. And although you are correct about the positioning, that still will be a personal preference about comfort. Even with all the features to make it ergonomic as possible, people will have setup that can be far from ideal because they think it feel better.
In hindsight I really should have taken a less awkward looking photo, but as I mentioned previously the flex arm wasn't nearly ridged enough; everytime I bumped it the positioning would move. At some point I'll try and get better photos with a more solid setup.

It is amusing/interesting that you have arrived at this same solution that I have been working on with a custom keyboard of my own that uses hall effect microjoysticks in it, motivated by recurring friction caused by how incompetently designed keyboards are and OS side key chording limitations. I am not surprised though with how creative and ambitious that you have been already in this design. I'm working on it at present when I have some time, and I'll report back to you once I have it implemented sanely. Surprisingly, out of the joysticks which are suitable for the embedded design arrived at, there is not a great deal of supply for them; additionally, the ones which incorporate a default joystick cap is not that comfortable, and there are a lot that I have tried which require too much force or are too insensitive for this purpose. It is definitely much trial and error finding ones that work here. This is so obviously the solution and logical conclusion of the trackpoints that IBM has utilized and such an effective solution to the problems of keyboarding design that it is shocking that none have done so in a manner which implements this logical conclusion.
That'd be great, I'm always looking at different ways of implementing this sort of thing and how others do it as well. I spotted somewhere else on the forum (will have to dig up the thread) where they're using strain gauges to do something similar but my issue with the ibm trackpoint and the lack of give they have would probably stop me from using that sort of setup.

but those scrolling hats could be nice for editing (emulating left/right key presses on scroll, for example).
If you can get spares and they are easy to replace...

Because all products I have with those wheels have had problems with them. After some moderate use, there's plently of issues (including left rotations that produce sometimes right movements). I'm curious if AcidFire's ones are of a higher quality.
I've seen that on a few as well. Sometimes it's mechanical, others it's a lack of proper debounce/state tracking. When we're ready to get a feature like this going we'll be running them through jigs to ensure that whatever ships will at the very least perform like they should for what the part is rated for.

@AcidFire, I like your work (and with me a lot of people: 120K times read already!). For what it's worth, I especially like the V-shaped model, the one that's called model-05-03 on this (http://"http://xahlee.info/kbd/axios_keyboard.html") page. I think this keyboard is unique for two main reasons:

  • It closes the gap between traditional keyboards and ergonomic keyboards. It looks less alien and allows persuading newcomers.
  • The form factor of the keyboard allows for easy traveling, great for existing users of say Ergodox

The fact that left and right parts are fixed in one case should not be a problem. Just Google for images of Ergodox' on peoples desktop. Most of the people use their Ergodox in an angle of around 10~15ish degrees (a little wider than the model-05-03 proto). One size could fit all in this case. It may not be the most ergonomic solution (I can see that you are striving for the best solution), but hey, as long as 99% is using QWERTY on a traditional keyboard it sure improves things a lot!

Just my 5 cents. I know with 120K reads there are 120K opinions ;)
The v design is actually 15 degrees for each side, which I found to be a happy medium in terms of angles. For the initial run I'm trying to include parts that would allow you to join both halves and retain the adjustability. The only thing I'm currently having a hard time nailing down is adjustability in the angle between the halves. As for the single case design it hasn't been taken off the table yet, but I was advised (and rightly so I think) to focus on the current design first, get it out the door and then look at additional case options. That being said if the campaign does well enough backers may find an extra casing option included with their kits.

Speaking of keycaps, I'm currently looking at swapping the 2x/1x/1x on the big thumb clusters to 1.5x/1.5x/1x to make the secondary row more functional/easier to strike.
This change seems good. After working on the ergodox, I keep complaining about the 1u/2u configuration. I want either 1/1/1 or 1.5/1.5.
I wasn't a fan of the 1/1/1(/1?) configuration, hence settling on the 1.5/1.5/1, though there's the potential to release the other designs as swap in modules down the road if there's enough interest in them.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Nico_h on Sat, 29 November 2014, 17:45:48
This is the thread I got an account on GeekHack for, and I can't wait for the ErgoGP/Axios to become real. Good hunting to AcidFire to make it happen.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: sheeap on Sat, 29 November 2014, 23:35:59
...there are a few users who are local and once I've gotten the prototype to a level I feel confident having other people put their hands on we'll definitely do a sit down on a weekend.

The trackpad mounting is interesting, I hadn't seen that done before but due to the nature of the design I'm sure we could look at rigging something up down the road. Maybe when the hands on gathering happens you can bring your kinesis and show me how it works for you, I'd love to check out the concept.

A-w-e-s-o-m-e. I would definitely be up for both! :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: berserkfan on Sun, 30 November 2014, 07:18:52
Acidfire, I made a

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=66202.msg1548805#msg1548805
Made a second Tipro casings photolog.
Hope that helps. The second is a more modern design, lighter and plastic. I think the casing might wind up being more expensive due to molding needs, but the PCB and cable connectors may give you good ideas.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 08 December 2014, 23:25:26
Berserk that's an awesome thread, it's always really cool to see how these sorts of things get put together by other people. The cable bus between the parts is of particular interest. While we've looked at those cables, the issue of size became a major concern, since the lines that have to be run to both the thumb cluster and the f row cluster number up to 20. This could be reduced by adding either processors or io expanders, but of course this adds cost and in the case of the f-row there isn't enough space. Hence the FPC cables; they're more flexible, require less finishing (connector install) and they're smaller. The only down side is strain relief, but we should be able to tackle that.

I've also been working on the wrist rest since aside from niceties on the case, it's the only major outstanding issue. I'm going to be trying a version of the case with the wrist rest built in since the tented stand without it just isn't stable. It's taller at the back end of the main unit than a typical keyboard and without the wrist rest causes a more severe deviation than a typical keyboard. For those of you who are wanting a more streamlined version, I've also got a design for something that should be as thin or thinner than the ergodox that allows the rest to be removed. This design still allows for the distance of the thumb cluster to be adjusted, but only on a flat plane.

On the development timeline side, we had a bit of an unfortunate incident last weekend:
(http://acidfire.ca/accident.jpg)
While it's been a rather painful week for all of us, my fiancee is suffering the worst and currently is home from work. Between physio and work around the house that she's unable to help with my development time is becoming severely limited, so if the updates are lacking in the next couple of weeks I apologize in advance. I'll keep trying to sneak in time wherever I can.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: hoggy on Tue, 09 December 2014, 00:54:55
Eek. Hope you both recover soon.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jeep on Tue, 09 December 2014, 01:15:18
On the development timeline side, we had a bit of an unfortunate incident last weekend:

 Hope your family gets better soon.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: berserkfan on Tue, 09 December 2014, 01:33:45
Is that your kid looking out of the seat?

Yes, do get well soon. And watch your health/ watch out for any unexpected changes in your weight or diet. Sometimes these crashes cause internal injuries (eg to intestines and stomach wall, when your body is thrown hard against some seat belts) that affect your digestion and show up as bleeding in the toilet. As adults you and your fiancée should be able to take action, but children sometimes don't understand.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: MOZ on Tue, 09 December 2014, 07:06:47
Berserk that's an awesome thread, it's always really cool to see how these sorts of things get put together by other people. The cable bus between the parts is of particular interest. While we've looked at those cables, the issue of size became a major concern, since the lines that have to be run to both the thumb cluster and the f row cluster number up to 20. This could be reduced by adding either processors or io expanders, but of course this adds cost and in the case of the f-row there isn't enough space. Hence the FPC cables; they're more flexible, require less finishing (connector install) and they're smaller. The only down side is strain relief, but we should be able to tackle that.

I've also been working on the wrist rest since aside from niceties on the case, it's the only major outstanding issue. I'm going to be trying a version of the case with the wrist rest built in since the tented stand without it just isn't stable. It's taller at the back end of the main unit than a typical keyboard and without the wrist rest causes a more severe deviation than a typical keyboard. For those of you who are wanting a more streamlined version, I've also got a design for something that should be as thin or thinner than the ergodox that allows the rest to be removed. This design still allows for the distance of the thumb cluster to be adjusted, but only on a flat plane.

On the development timeline side, we had a bit of an unfortunate incident last weekend:
Show Image
(http://acidfire.ca/accident.jpg)

While it's been a rather painful week for all of us, my fiancee is suffering the worst and currently is home from work. Between physio and work around the house that she's unable to help with my development time is becoming severely limited, so if the updates are lacking in the next couple of weeks I apologize in advance. I'll keep trying to sneak in time wherever I can.

Forget the keyboards, real life and real problems are much more important then keyboards irrespective of how much we love them.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: JackMills on Wed, 10 December 2014, 05:12:55
Ow man, get well soon. Take time to recover, with car accidents not all injuries are obvious right away, as described in detail by Berserkfan. Take your time to get used to driving again, it would be normal to feel scared when going on the road again.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: berserkfan on Wed, 10 December 2014, 05:33:31
Ow man, get well soon. Take time to recover, with car accidents not all injuries are obvious right away, as described in detail by Berserkfan. Take your time to get used to driving again, it would be normal to feel scared when going on the road again.

Ya, generally for internal injuries your diet, digestion, appetite and excretion are affected. Since the internal organs are soft, it's more about bruising, internal clots, etc. The danger is not with adults who generally will recognize that something is wrong, but with kids who might not report the changes.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: thadood on Wed, 10 December 2014, 12:13:05
I wish you both a speedy recovery! I went through a bad wreck back in 2012 that I still have issues with. My right side (right hand was on steering wheel, which I bent on impact) has a fair amount of arthritis, my right hand has occasional weird nerve issues that cause pain, and I had to have surgery on my left middle finger because a piece of glass severed the tendon that's responsible for bringing your fingers straight.

If I were a litigious person, I'd have gone after the doctor that said everything is fine and sent me home without any medication / therapy recommendations. Didn't find out about the tendon until almost two weeks later, after being told "Just give it some time, sometimes the muscles are in shock", I went to a specialist and he was pretty shocked about the situation.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: EvillePanda on Sun, 14 December 2014, 00:29:22
Ouch, hope both of you feel better soon.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Scoox on Mon, 29 December 2014, 08:42:43
Take care man, get well soon!!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: kittykatmax on Wed, 21 January 2015, 17:26:07
We haven't heard from you in a while.  I hope you and your fiancee are doing better!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 23 January 2015, 18:26:07
Hey guys, thought I'd pop on quick and say thank you for the well wishes, we're both getting better (though slower than we'd like) and hopefully my fiancee will be back at work next week, part time. In the meantime I've been slowly spinning back up into finishing off development.

I've been working on the design for the last couple of weeks, and there are a couple of things I think the latest design addresses that I plan to post photos of over the weekend as I print more parts.

1) Plate material
After long comparisons, I find far more preference for metal mount plates vs plastic, so I'm working with the pricing to squeeze aluminum plates into the design without a massive change in value. I've also been working on design for these plates that is compatible with both Cherry MX & Matias switches.

2) Cherry MX & Matias compatible PCBs
I'm also working on upgrading the existing PCB designs for Matias support as well. The upshot of this is the boards require little to no modification to include it. Unfortunately however a doubled sided footprint for the Matias ends up being a slot instead of holes and would do a terrible job of keeping the switch aligned. If I end up having to go with separate designs for each side, it definitely helps to free up some of the frustrations that the double sided boards introduce. I'll be evaluating how this would affect the bottomline of the price of the kits.

3) Thumb cluster switch changes
The more I look at the design, the top three 1u switches on each side seem to be counter intuitive to the end goal of reducing strain by reducing travel, so I'm experimenting with dropping them. In their place, I'm looking at using the space for a set of 5 RGB LEDs on each side for indicators, since dropping the switches & caps helps to balance out the cost while putting them in a nice visible position. For those of you asking for some kind of display, this would also make for a very handy mounting point.

4) Open top/sides (Similar to Corsair K70) vs Closed (like most boards)
I've had requests for both and in what seems to be a continual pattern for this project, opinion has been split down the middle. The current iteration of the design now will accommodate both and even allow you to switch between them fairly easily.

5) Getting under the hood
The current iteration harkens back to my earlier acrylic designs, with the assembly screws being inserted from the top. Not only does this allow the new design to work the way it does (pics coming I promise) but it also gives the tinkerers a chance to get under the hood while it's set up, also making troubleshooting easier for those who'll be building their own kits.

6) RGB
For those of you interested in RGB, I had an idea for an add-on for the Matias switches that I think is pretty clever in the way it can be installed without the removal of the Matias switches. Unfortunately I don't have the same type of option for the Cherry MX yet, but I'll keep it going on the back burner.

Check back over the weekend, I have a lot I plan to share over the next couple of days.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: conandy on Fri, 23 January 2015, 23:16:09
Glad to see you back in action, Acidfire.  Hope the fiancee and yourself are doing well and recovering back to 100%. 

Looking forward to the updated pics and design alterations. 

Some thoughts on keyswitches. It may have been addressed earlier in the thread, but have you considered the Kailh cherry MX-compatible switches as an alternative to genuine cherry MX?  I haven't used them (only felt them in the store), but they seem to be gaining popularity in some of the major brands of keyboards like Razer.  I was just thinking maybe they'd be a more reasonable and reliable supplier than Cherry.  Also: I'd be fine if you committed 100% to Mattias switches for the first version of the Axios, too.  Rather than re-iterating the design to accomodate either/or MX or Mattias.  I'd focus on one or the other (whomever can supply you the switches most reliably and cost effectively), but maybe you'll end up with one version of the boards for Mattias, and another for Cherry, when all is said and done.  I do respect the drive to design for all possibilities and to make everyone happy.  I am an engineer and also struggle with the "paralysis by analysis" but sometimes you just have to say "this is good enough". 

Personally, I think most of us here will buy the keyboard regardless of the switch choice, even though there are a lot of strong opinions on switches here.     

Also: what happened to the potential "Mattias designed and built Cherry MX-compatible switch" you had going on earlier?  Did that fall through or is that still potentially on the table?  That seemed like a tall order, but I was intrigued. 

If you REALLY want a following, you should design your own new improved buckling spring switches!   ;D



Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Loligagger on Sat, 24 January 2015, 00:03:44
What about keycaps for a matias switch version? Scrounging alps compatible caps from old boards would surely be a hassle.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Sat, 24 January 2015, 02:10:48
Glad to see you back in action, Acidfire.  Hope the fiancee and yourself are doing well and recovering back to 100%. 

Looking forward to the updated pics and design alterations. 

Some thoughts on keyswitches. It may have been addressed earlier in the thread, but have you considered the Kailh cherry MX-compatible switches as an alternative to genuine cherry MX?  I haven't used them (only felt them in the store), but they seem to be gaining popularity in some of the major brands of keyboards like Razer.  I was just thinking maybe they'd be a more reasonable and reliable supplier than Cherry.  Also: I'd be fine if you committed 100% to Mattias switches for the first version of the Axios, too.  Rather than re-iterating the design to accomodate either/or MX or Mattias.  I'd focus on one or the other (whomever can supply you the switches most reliably and cost effectively), but maybe you'll end up with one version of the boards for Mattias, and another for Cherry, when all is said and done.  I do respect the drive to design for all possibilities and to make everyone happy.  I am an engineer and also struggle with the "paralysis by analysis" but sometimes you just have to say "this is good enough". 

Personally, I think most of us here will buy the keyboard regardless of the switch choice, even though there are a lot of strong opinions on switches here.     

Also: what happened to the potential "Mattias designed and built Cherry MX-compatible switch" you had going on earlier?  Did that fall through or is that still potentially on the table?  That seemed like a tall order, but I was intrigued. 

If you REALLY want a following, you should design your own new improved buckling spring switches!   ;D
I think I may end up with plates specifically for the difference switch types, however the PBS are actually a bit simpler to keep flexible.

As for switch type, I too agree that I need to focus on one type and I'm leaning more and more towards for the Matias for a substantial cost savings and a much more even lighting profile since they come in clear by default. to compensate for those set on cherry, we'd offer a version in the campaign with everything but switches so people can still get theirs up and running how they'd like.

On the topic of the hybrid switches, I'd still like to do them however they require a substantial financial commitment that I am not nearly in the place to take on right now (we're currently down to just my income) but time as well since I'm told we're looking at a 6 month time minimum production time frame.

I do find myself more open now to evaluating the switches from Kailh since from what I understand they're supposedly the manufacturer for Matias as well, plus the same complaints that have been pointed at them I've managed to do with legit Cherry switches here.


What about keycaps for a matias switch version? Scrounging alps compatible caps from old boards would surely be a hassle.
Key caps I already have a source for, no need to scrounge ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Sat, 24 January 2015, 06:02:45
First and foremost, I must say it's great to get some decent news about your recovering. I only learned about the accident very recently, because I had some "problems" at work that prevented me from visiting this forum, and I felt strange to offer wishes so late. I hope your family and you will fully recover quickly now.


And since you offer some new interesting things about your project...

3) Thumb cluster switch changes
The more I look at the design, the top three 1u switches on each side seem to be counter intuitive to the end goal of reducing strain by reducing travel, so I'm experimenting with dropping them. In their place, I'm looking at using the space for a set of 5 RGB LEDs on each side for indicators
I think those 1u switches are indeed pretty much useless for typing, but I find them useful to toggle the keyboard behavior (The kind of thing a 'numlock' key can do on a normal keyboard). Maybe I wouldn't switch the 1u keys on both sides (especially since 10 leds seems a bit much when keys act as led themselves) but anything you'll do will be great, I'm sure!

Key caps I already have a source for, no need to scrounge ;)
If there's a change from MX-compatible to Matthias switches, I'm happy I haven't ordered a keycaps set in advance ^_^

I was very close to do so (with WASD) a couple months ago, mostly because I was interested in a DCS or similar shape, and IIRC, the default keycaps will probably be flatter to keep costs down (?) Custom printed keys for Matthias switchs will probably be higher...

The thing that prevented me to make the order is that I wasn't able to find proper 1.5u keys for the sides.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Nico_h on Mon, 26 January 2015, 04:21:58
First, welcome back AcidFire, and it's good everything seems to be getting better for yours and you.

As to the keyboard, I understand giving us a release date would be an exercise in futility, but I am sure a ballpark (e.g. First half of 2015 / summer/fall 2015...) would be appreciated by all. Otherwise an estimate on the scope of the remaining work to be done on your side would be awesome.

On paper, I am sold on the Matias Quiet click switches so i can't wait to get my hands on your board.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 26 January 2015, 05:34:49
Unfortunately my prints have been going a bit slow over the weekend, so I'll share some quick renders until I can get them finished up.
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-92.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-93.jpg)
(The thumb plates don't have the cherry mod slots for the sake of speed)
These are the same kit, with a minor difference in parts. These parts will let you pick whether you want open or closed sides (or switch between them), with the added benefit that the caps can be removed easily for cleaning with a can of duster gas (also makes it easy to service without flipping it over). While the top 1u switches can be used reasonably while the unit sits flat, they're exceptionally uncomfortable to use while tented. As for the uses of the LEDs, there are a number of uses for them including layer indicator, caps/num/scroll lock, battery level, connection strength, email/message notification, etc etc. that I think the 10 are pretty useful without tying up use of the backlight.

As for keycaps, I'm still looking at offering DSA and DCS sets out of the gate. I've been reassured that since the molds already exist, there is no difference in the cost vs the Cherry MX stem especially since they'll still be laser etched.

The last hurdle before putting the campaign out has been finalizing the design, since the revisions of the electronics and firmware can be finished while the campaign is up and running. And really, the only thing holding up the design is printing the parts and making sure it all looks good together. We had another bit of good news this weekend as well when were talking to wedding photographers over the weekend. My fiancee was telling them what I've been working on and after the photog and his wife were done geeking out they told me they could help with the video, something I've been dreading putting together. So I suppose the short answer is: First half of 2015.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: kittykatmax on Tue, 27 January 2015, 16:50:51
Welcome Back! :)  I'm glad things are finally starting to get somewhat back to normal for you and your fiancee.

I can only speak for myself, but:

- I'm beyond THRILLED about the option for an open (Corsair K70-style) keyboard design - SOOOO much easier to clean without necessarily having to pull keycaps (with three cats, that's a big plus!).  I also just love the look - visually cleaner and (imho) more modern/attractive.

- As for the thumb cluster, my biggest hopes are/were that it has enough buttons within easy reach so that I can: Space with the left and Backspace with the right, plus program Ctrl, Alt & Shift keys in order to give my pinkies a break. Six buttons is plenty!  That said, I had a thought; would a single, long key work for the third row, if the goal was to hit it with the heel of your thumb/edge of your palm, and not the end of your thumb?  If so, they'd work great as Space/Backspace, or potentially even mod, function or layer keys depending upon user preference.

- My personal switch preference is: Backlit Cherry MX > Backlit Matias > Cherry MX > Matias > Backlit Kailh > Kailh.  I tend to use my PC in a dim room, and while I touch type, I don't exclusively touch type, so I want/need to be able to see what is what! 

I love Cherry switches, but I'm open to trying Matias switches.  Being limited for custom keycaps (I forget, would they have cherry stems?) would be a concern, but that's a pain for any backlit keyboard, realistically.  As for the suggestion to check out Kailh by another member, I personally hope you don't.  I haven't read many good things, just a few people with brand new boards that claim they don't have issues yet (whoopie!).  I acknowledge that it's impossible to say whether many or all the negative comments are based more out of snobbery over a "made in China imitation" than truth. 

TLDR: Only time will tell if Kailh switches are true switch contenders, or just a cheap (price/quality) knock-off.

More
It might make me a bad person, but I can't help but feel more confident about Cherry, with their proven track record for quality and their German manufacturing, over some newcomer out of China (I know the company might have been around for a while, but not their Kailh switch).  "Made in China" doesn't mean a product can't be good or even great.  But, it's also true that I've personally had just enough bad experiences with various Chinese-manufactured "bargain-priced" or knock-off products, in conjunction with enough bad experiences with (poor quality) knock-offs regardless of WHERE they're made, that I lack out-of-the-gate faith. 

Regardless of any current user claims that their keyboard is fine, it's early days yet, and it doesn't mean the switches will hold up over time.  To truly know that will take...time.  Numbers based off of tests using a machine (which methodically presses a key over and over in precisely the same way each time) is imho NOT the same as the wear-and-tear a keyboard's switches will experience in the hands of an actual human being (hitting keys with varying force, at varying angles).  I've also heard, among other issues, that Kailh switches don't feel the same as Cherry switches, that Kailh switches have looser tolerances, and that they're made with cheaper plastics - all of which are of concern.  Just my two cents - well, as windy as I was (sorry), it's probably more like a couple dollars. lol
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Tue, 27 January 2015, 18:36:09
So I suppose the short answer is: First half of 2015.
Does that mean first half of 2015 for the crowd-funding campaign to go live, plus like 6–12 months to finish production?

In any event, while some design features aren’t my personal cup of tea, I’m looking forward to seeing what these look like. The more alternative keyboard designs available, the better. All the best luck, I hope it goes smoothly!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: AbuBakr on Tue, 27 January 2015, 20:16:36
I understand that anything such as Buckling Springs would be out of the question, but are you planning on offering this in a Topre variation? Considering that this is one of (if not THE) most modular, customizable, and ergonomic keyboard design I've ever seen, it would be quite a shame if it didn't come in Topre's.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Tue, 27 January 2015, 21:10:10
I understand that anything such as Buckling Springs would be out of the question, but are you planning on offering this in a Topre variation? Considering that this is one of (if not THE) most modular, customizable, and ergonomic keyboard design I've ever seen, it would be quite a shame if it didn't come in Topre's.
It’s way way harder to make a custom Topre keyboard, because it requires substantial support directly from the Topre Corporation to make custom parts in the new layout. You can’t just buy separate switches and then build whatever you want. So my guess is that none of the new alternative keyboard projects is going to use Topre switches any time soon, and if you want to make it happen, you might want to go talk to Topre directly about how to make it work, since for the people designing new keyboards, it’s way too big a commitment of time/effort to be worth it, considering the high chance that they’ll just say “nope, sorry” or “come back when you have an order for 50000 units”.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Nico_h on Wed, 28 January 2015, 01:02:22

. So I suppose the short answer is: First half of 2015.

Awesome! Thanks a lot for the update!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 28 January 2015, 15:29:36
Welcome Back! :)  I'm glad things are finally starting to get somewhat back to normal for you and your fiancee.

I can only speak for myself, but:

- I'm beyond THRILLED about the option for an open (Corsair K70-style) keyboard design - SOOOO much easier to clean without necessarily having to pull keycaps (with three cats, that's a big plus!).  I also just love the look - visually cleaner and (imho) more modern/attractive.
I'm glad you like it. I've been flipping back and forth about the design and closed vs open, and was happy when I came up with a design that I think gives enough flexibility to let users pick what works for them. It's also handy that if you do go with the closed design, you can still remove the caps for easy cleaning.

- As for the thumb cluster, my biggest hopes are/were that it has enough buttons within easy reach so that I can: Space with the left and Backspace with the right, plus program Ctrl, Alt & Shift keys in order to give my pinkies a break. Six buttons is plenty!  That said, I had a thought; would a single, long key work for the third row, if the goal was to hit it with the heel of your thumb/edge of your palm, and not the end of your thumb?  If so, they'd work great as Space/Backspace, or potentially even mod, function or layer keys depending upon user preference.
I've tried using a long bar on the bottom row, and found I was striking it unintentionally when hitting the keys above it. The same rang true for the top row of 1u keys as well, I kept bumping the 1.5u below them unless I was specifically remembering not to.

- My personal switch preference is: Backlit Cherry MX > Backlit Matias > Cherry MX > Matias > Backlit Kailh > Kailh.  I tend to use my PC in a dim room, and while I touch type, I don't exclusively touch type, so I want/need to be able to see what is what! 

I love Cherry switches, but I'm open to trying Matias switches.  Being limited for custom keycaps (I forget, would they have cherry stems?) would be a concern, but that's a pain for any backlit keyboard, realistically.  As for the suggestion to check out Kailh by another member, I personally hope you don't.  I haven't read many good things, just a few people with brand new boards that claim they don't have issues yet (whoopie!).  I acknowledge that it's impossible to say whether many or all the negative comments are based more out of snobbery over a "made in China imitation" than truth. 

TLDR: Only time will tell if Kailh switches are true switch contenders, or just a cheap (price/quality) knock-off.
I used to be a fan of Cherry as well, but the attitude of their sales staff has seriously soured me on them, especially in contrast to the folks at Matias who have been nothing short of amazing. From what I've seen from Jesse(obra) and the Keyboardio the Matias also seem to have a fantastic evenness to their backlighting since you can centralize the light source, while the RGB from Corsair still have the characteristic fade from one side to the other. And as you mentioned, because it's a full backlit board you'll have very few custom options anyways. As I mentioned previously however, I will be doing a Cherry MX kit as well for those who absolutely have to have them, I just can't do preassembled Cherry without an $80~ premium to account for the difference in the pricing of switches.

So I suppose the short answer is: First half of 2015.
Does that mean first half of 2015 for the crowd-funding campaign to go live, plus like 6–12 months to finish production?

In any event, while some design features aren’t my personal cup of tea, I’m looking forward to seeing what these look like. The more alternative keyboard designs available, the better. All the best luck, I hope it goes smoothly!
That would mean first quarter 2015 for funding, with a production time no longer than 6 months (barring major supply obstacles). Keeping basically all the production local will let us keep a much tighter set of reigns on the timeline.

I'm curious, what design features aren't appealing to you? I'm happy with the design myself and with the exception of minor tweaks for the sake of robustness &amp; manufacturability have no plans to change it, but I always love the feedback.

I understand that anything such as Buckling Springs would be out of the question, but are you planning on offering this in a Topre variation? Considering that this is one of (if not THE) most modular, customizable, and ergonomic keyboard design I've ever seen, it would be quite a shame if it didn't come in Topre's.
It’s way way harder to make a custom Topre keyboard, because it requires substantial support directly from the Topre Corporation to make custom parts in the new layout. You can’t just buy separate switches and then build whatever you want. So my guess is that none of the new alternative keyboard projects is going to use Topre switches any time soon, and if you want to make it happen, you might want to go talk to Topre directly about how to make it work, since for the people designing new keyboards, it’s way too big a commitment of time/effort to be worth it, considering the high chance that they’ll just say “nope, sorry” or “come back when you have an order for 50000 units”.
To be honest I'd hadn't given it any thought, but as jacobolus pointed out Topre's are a bit more of a time/funding sink than I currently have the capacity for. That being said, as long as the dimensions work (and the CM Novatouch hints that they may) I definitely wouldn't rule it out.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 28 January 2015, 16:34:28
That would mean first quarter 2015 for funding, with a production time no longer than 6 months (barring major supply obstacles). Keeping basically all the production local will let us keep a much tighter set of reigns on the timeline.
Well, I wish you all the best.

Quote from: AcidFire
I'm curious, what design features aren't appealing to you?
I really don’t want to sound like I’m bashing you, because I think every experimental design is great, we get to test out new ideas and see what works. For me personally, there are too many keys, with many of them unreachable, the columns aren’t staggered ideally, and the whole thumb section is too far away, and the way it tilts puts the switches at a worse position and angle (for me personally anyway) than when it’s just flat.

I’m glad you’re making it though, because other people can then try it and report back on which aspects work for them.

Quote from: AcidFire
To be honest I'd hadn't given it any thought, but as jacobolus pointed out Topre's are a bit more of a time/funding sink than I currently have the capacity for. That being said, as long as the dimensions work (and the CM Novatouch hints that they may) I definitely wouldn't rule it out.
CM Storm sunk a huge amount of time, effort, and resources into the Novatouch, and it’s a huge gamble for them that could be disastrous if it flops (I have no idea what their sales are like, I really hope their gamble pays off, because it’s nice to see more keyswitch alternatives in popular use). It’s certainly possible that you (or another small indy keyboard designer) could figure out a way to build a Topre version, especially if someone has friends at the Topre Corporation, or if a keyboard design turns out to be outrageously popular; it just seems unlikely to happen any time soon.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 28 January 2015, 17:41:50
I really don’t want to sound like I’m bashing you, because I think every experimental design is great, we get to test out new ideas and see what works. For me personally, there are too many keys, with many of them unreachable, the columns aren’t staggered ideally, and the whole thumb section is too far away, and the way it tilts puts the switches at a worse position and angle (for me personally anyway) than when it’s just flat.

I’m glad you’re making it though, because other people can then try it and report back on which aspects work for them.
I don't consider it bashing at all, it's the same sort of feedback that I had from the ergodox that started me on this project in the first place and why we do what we do here :)

I know your points are yours personally but my inner engineer/designer (http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/37399571.jpg) can't help but reply:

there are too many keys
Can't really argue here, this is totally subjective to someone's intended use; that being said I tried to strike a balance between removing keys that don't get used as much outside of specific tasks like programming, while keeping enough that you don't have to shift between a number of layers to find what you need. Another factor was being able to resemble a standard QWERTY board as much as possible to make the transition for the average user as easy as possible. After this design goes out into the world, I have a couple more waiting that you may like a bit more.

with many of them unreachable
As previously mentioned, this was mostly due to the aim of striking a balance with something familiar and something new. The next designs I'd like to work on definitely seek to address it for those who are more open to new layouts.

columns aren’t staggered ideally
this was something else I struggled with, especially with the index finger and trying to strike a balance between male & female anatomy. I do however think I need to raise/lower the pinkies about half a key(credit to you for inspiring this with your ergodox revisions) and dropping a key (bye bye caps lock :D ) to reduce their curl, and happily there is enough room the design that it's a relatively minor change to (admittedly one I keep forgetting to) make. I'm going to try a plate as well dropping the third key on the inner most column in favor of lowering the remaining two into a more reachable position (the very helpful reason I like having easily accessible plates).

whole thumb section is too far away
It is pushing it for sure when it's flat, however when tented and dropped the thumbs can actually come in a bit closer than they look. I'll see if I can do a better render to illustrate this. In the case design I'd like to release after the first run, the plates will remain the same but sit right against each other, minimizing the distance.

the way it tilts puts the switches at a worse position and angle
Again I would agree that this can be subjective, but I've found that with the thumb adjusted properly so that you rest in the middle, the keys to either side are a very comfortable movement to make. The next time I'm in SF I'd love to catch up and see if it fits better in person (and just to nerd out about keyboards in general).

CM Storm sunk a huge amount of time, effort, and resources into the Novatouch, and it’s a huge gamble for them that could be disastrous if it flops (I have no idea what their sales are like, I really hope their gamble pays off, because it’s nice to see more keyswitch alternatives in popular use). It’s certainly possible that you (or another small indy keyboard designer) could figure out a way to build a Topre version, especially if someone has friends at the Topre Corporation, or if a keyboard design turns out to be outrageously popular; it just seems unlikely to happen any time soon.
This is the half of the reason why I backed off doing a new type of switch for the initial production (the other half being a potentially 6-8 month dev/production time, and that was the most optimistic). The money I'd have to invest for a potentially bad switch (doubtful with Matias at the helm admittedly) that if they didn't feel right or just took too long was just took much of a risk. I'm glad to see Cooler Master & Logitech taking these types of risks to help open up the market and provide viable alternatives to the Cherry MX.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: JackMills on Thu, 29 January 2015, 02:25:38
Good to hear you and your significant other are doing well!

Just read through the new posts as I haven't frequented here that often, and I am still looking forward to the launch (doesn't matter when). I would love to go for Matias switches, especially with the RGB option as I have the idea of using the RGB to color code the keys (would look cool with blank translucent caps), if possible it would be great to change the color coding between layers.

Now the next step is to put Bluetooth in ;D
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jeep on Thu, 29 January 2015, 16:56:16
3) Thumb cluster switch changes
The more I look at the design, the top three 1u switches on each side seem to be counter intuitive to the end goal of reducing strain by reducing travel, so I'm experimenting with dropping them. In their

Well, I'll put in one vote to have the extra keys remain...

And welcome back. ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: AbuBakr on Fri, 30 January 2015, 11:09:08
Thought so.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 30 January 2015, 11:38:22
I didn't think so. Topre did seem a bit outlandish. I ruled out buckling springs a long time ago, but I'm starting to see their reasonability. Do you see any future in using Buckling Springs (capacitive or membrane)? But I suppose BS switches would be even more difficult to obtain and utilize. I suppose a modern BS keyboard (especially Ergodox like) will just have to remain a fantasy. ;(
Making a custom-layout Model M is basically impossible without ridiculous up front capital expense, and is probably never going to happen. Making a custom-layout Model F is possible as a DIY hobby project, but requires cannibalizing parts from an XT keyboard (or similar), so is not viable as a commercial product. If you want a custom-layout Model F, you’re going to need to design and build it yourself.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Fri, 30 January 2015, 15:04:49
About buckling springs, is there a lot of patents over the system?

I'm curious, with many improvements on the 3D printers, the next step could be custom designs for switchs. Buckling springs are not the most complex design...

That's a stretch, because moving parts are difficult things to produce, but seeing how the technology has changed recently...

Well, I wish you all the best.
Same here... Can't wait to invest money in this ^_^

Many thanks for the updates AcidFire!

For me personally, there are too many keys, with many of them unreachable
With threads here about 40% and boards with 122+ keys, you probably won't be able to design a "one fits all" ^_^ I'd say that there's not enough keys for me (I don't mind an additional pinkie column, I prefer moving the hand to combination of keys, and I can't put all the keys I use often on the current board... it's even worse now I have to find a way to relocate 6 keys ^_^)

I'm already happy that this keyboard will happen soon, because even if we could have designed a couple of things differently (I'll trust AcidFire on the ergonomics, though, he has apparently put a lot of thought in this), that's still better for many of us than anything available, and if other designs follow, that's even better news.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Dee1 on Sat, 31 January 2015, 02:17:16
Wow, this looks amazing so far! I personally love the fact that it has so many keys. It looks really useful in that regard. I can't wait to see your future progress on this. :)

Most importantly of all, I'm glad you're doing well! :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Dynamo on Tue, 03 February 2015, 13:59:01
I also vote for many keys! :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: cmdrdan on Wed, 04 February 2015, 22:15:06
I am wondering what a complete kit minus key caps would run (all micro processing, switches, case), also do you have any early run kits available?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Scoox on Wed, 04 February 2015, 22:52:01
I was just thinking about the arrow keys. I may be wrong, but I think most people use these keys as follows:

Index >> Left
Middle >> Up and Down
Ring >> Right

The current design means the hand needs to move outwards by one key in order to operate the arrow keys with the above familiar fingering. It may be a bit late but in my opinion this would be more ergonomic and a little cheaper (saves two keys):

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98636804/Forums/GeekHack/2015-02-05-124345 Arrow keys.png)

In previous mappings I did on normal keyboards I put the arrow keys on the numbers row (so they were arranged in a line, not in the shape of a cross) and it didn't take much getting used to. The point is the hands don't need to move sideways.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Scoox on Wed, 04 February 2015, 22:58:57
I was just thinking about the arrow keys. I may be wrong, but I think most people who have all their fingers in place would operate the arrow keys as follows:


This is probably because index+middle+rings is the most dexterous combination possible, certainly more than middle+ring+pinky, even though the ring finger is the dumbest of all fingers. The current design means the hand needs to move outwards by one column in order to operate the arrow keys with the familiar fingering. It may be a bit late to point this out now but in my opinion the following design would be more ergonomic and a little cheaper (saves one key):

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98636804/Forums/GeekHack/2015-02-05-124345 Arrow keys.png)

In previous mappings I did on normal keyboards I put the arrow keys on the numbers row (so they were arranged in a line, not in the shape of a cross) and it didn't take much getting used to. The point is the hands don't need to move sideways.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: conandy on Thu, 05 February 2015, 01:14:59
I have to admit I am in accord with Scoox on the arrow cluster positioning.  I have a TEK, and the arrow cluster (right hand) and the pageup/dn/home/end cluster (left hand) being one key shifted right (or left) of the home row positioning really is not ideal, especially for touch typing.  I was not originally a fan of the Ergodox solution which puts them all in a row, but I think I could learn to live with that solution (don't have an Ergodox yet, though, so haven't tried it) since it lets the hand slide directly down the columns and stay aligned with home row.

Even taking the same concept that is currently on the table, and moving the arrow cluster over one column so that the left arrow is directly in line withe the J-key column, but keeping the cross layout, would be a better solution in my opinion.   

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Thu, 05 February 2015, 02:13:24
I agree with these two. I have both an ergodox and a truly ergonomic. I have programmed the left arrow key on the teck so it is a Fn key that I hold down with my thumb to turn the home row into arrows. So I don't even have to move my hand, I just press the thumbkey and J is left, K is down, L is right, and I is up. Also H is Home, ; is End, U is PgUp and O is PgDn.

My ergodox is set the same, using one of the thumbkeys.

I use dvorak so it's not actually those keys, but you get the idea.

I could not go back to a layout without such a setup anymore. It's so useful being able to navigate without moving your hand.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Scoox on Thu, 05 February 2015, 07:19:17
I agree with these two. I have both an ergodox and a truly ergonomic.

Did you buy the ErgoDox after the TEK because you were looking for something better? How do the two compare (pros cons about both)?

I like to hit the left- and right-most keys (shift keys on a normal keyboard) with my palms, at the base of my pinkies, so I normally would map those to be the Enter key. Looking at the US version of the TEK, and also AcidFire's keyboard, these keys are slightly wider which means they may be easier to press this way by a range of users with varying hand sizes.

For me the centre column has always been (from top to bottom) Win key, Ctrl, Alt. On the ErgoDox there are two larger keys straddling the home row vertically, which is not the case on the TEK or AcidFire's keyboard, I wonder which one feels better in practice.

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98636804/Forums/GeekHack/2015-02-05-213437 Middle keys.png)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98636804/Forums/GeekHack/2015-02-05-213534 Middle keys.png)

Also, could you comment on the enclosure? The ErgoDox one seems kind of boxy with those sharp corners, while the TEK one is curvier and somehow more "inviting", so to speak.

I have programmed the left arrow key on the teck so it is a Fn key that I hold down with my thumb to turn the home row into arrows. So I don't even have to move my hand, I just press the thumbkey and J is left, K is down, L is right, and I is up. Also H is Home, ; is End, U is PgUp and O is PgDn.

My ergodox is set the same, using one of the thumbkeys.

I use dvorak so it's not actually those keys, but you get the idea.

I could not go back to a layout without such a setup anymore. It's so useful being able to navigate without moving your hand.

That's really interesting. I did a prototype layout yesterday on a Japanese HHK2 Lite which has a bunch of extra thumb keys. I moved all keys of the right hand to the right by one key, so I get an extra column in the centre which now contains Ctrl, Alt and Win (so it is basically a poor-man's TEK).

When I press and hold the left thumb modifier key I get numbers under my left hand and arrow keys under my right. I am finding key combinations such as Shift+Home (which on a normal keyboard only involve two keys) hard to get the hang of, because of the extra modifier key involved. I think my problem is that the way I've set it up I have to press Shift and the modifier with the same hand, the way you've set yours up you are probably pressing the modifier with the right thumb and Shift with the left hand, am I right?

I've been using layers for symbols and numbers for many  years (since 2002 actually), but I always had my arrow keys mapped to the numbers row, so maybe I have grown used to the immediacy of dedicated arrow keys vs using a layer for that. Therefore I'd like to hear about your adaptation experience.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: sordna on Thu, 05 February 2015, 08:55:39
I agree with the above 3 folks and would also much prefer a normal bottom row.
Long time Kinesis Advantage and Ergodox user here. I actually like my arrow keys like Kinesis arranged, using index and middle finger on left and right hands, and using the rest bottom row keys for other purposes.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Thu, 05 February 2015, 09:48:39
I am wondering what a complete kit minus key caps would run
If the keys use Matthias stern, you could probably spend more in custom keycaps than in the keyboard itself... They won't be easy to source, I fear.

The current design means the hand needs to move outwards by one key in order to operate the arrow keys with the above familiar fingering.
You probably have to move your hands so far downwards that I don't think an outwards move matters so much.

I'm pretty sure that many touch typers will use motion keys in the middle of the keyboard in a special layer rather than the cross-shaped keys in the bottom most of the time (I use J for left, K for down, L for right, I for up, U for home, ; for end, Y for pageup and H for pagedown on a QWERTY layout myself).

There's nothing mandatory like using those clusters for navigation... They're probably too far for touch typing, anyway. But I think they can be an useful alternative when your hands have left the keyboard (I can more easily find the inverted T cluster on my keyboard by touch than the home row).

IIRC, one of the reasons for this cluster is to make the keyboard less strange to newcomers in the world of ergonomics keyboards.

It may be a bit late but in my opinion this would be more ergonomic
You're not late, but it's actually an older layout that was studied... It was changed to the current one (minux the keys replaced by LEDS) something around may 2015 if I remember well.

I think the current layout has its merits, although I would personally use a larger key for the inward key in the cluster to avoid having a "gap". This way, you virtually have the same layout you suggested (plus a "down" key you may always not use).

and a little cheaper (saves two keys)
Please  Stop  Removing  Keys  !    ^_^

(besides, I've already redo my layout half a dozen times in the last eight months, I'll turn crazy before the kickstarter launch ^_^ )
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Scoox on Thu, 05 February 2015, 11:19:30
IIRC, one of the reasons for this cluster is to make the keyboard less strange to newcomers in the world of ergonomics keyboards.

C'mon, this keyboard was never aimed at the masses: for that the market is already saturated with so-called "professional" and "ergonomic" keyboards. Plus, I bet everyone following this thread can touch-type.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Thu, 05 February 2015, 11:49:23
C'mon, this keyboard was never aimed at the masses: for that the market is already saturated with so-called "professional" and "ergonomic" keyboards. Plus, I bet everyone following this thread can touch-type.
My memory may serve me bad. I don't remember well the reason(s) for the "switch" of the layout. It's in the pages 30-40, it could be interesting to re-read this discussion.

Fact is the suggested layout here has been the one AcidFire was toying with at first... See for example the first Grand Piano model, or this one from last march:
(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/IMG_2074.JPG)

I think both layouts can work, the differences are not really so important. Especially since the keys we're talking about won't be the ones used the most often, given their position. I doubt a lot of people will find a layout or the other unconfortable just because of two keys.

I think AcidFire intend to offer variations of the layout in subsequent kickstarters, anyway...

About the people targeted by this keyboard, I hope it appeals to people outside of this thread. Actually, outside of people even interested in ergonomics keyboards. A couple of my co-workers may be interested in AcidFire's keyboard (they want to try it, at least), and they didn't even know that there were keyboards beside the ISO/ANSI ones...

Since hardware makers are only doing stupid "ergonomics" keyboards layouts or insanely expensive (and scary) ones, I think this kind of project, like the Axios, the Ergodox or the Keyboardio one may be the firsts steps toward a larger reach of comfortable keyboards. Maybe I dream a bit, but you have to set your goals high.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: tups on Thu, 05 February 2015, 16:27:57
Lets dream, Koren!

I was one of the people requesting an arrow cluster — a few months and pages back. I have some weird less-than-ideal arrangement on the ErgoDox at the moment (up/down on thumb cluster). Not enough spare keys elsewhere (and most already have two or more layers).

ErgoDox vs. TEK: personal opinion, but I like the design on the Ergo much more than the TEK. The TEK feels higher quality but both are heavy, over-engineered keyboards (in a good way).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Scoox on Fri, 06 February 2015, 02:45:34
Thanks for the info.

And yes, I think the future is ergonomic input devices. Not sure what it will take for people to realise. I blame schools for teaching kids to use computers but not teaching them how to type. In my case, I set out to learn to touch type form the day I got my first computer. I've always seen touch typing and operating a computer as being part of the same skill. This is just another example of how 90% of the bull**** kids get taught in school is useless in real life, instead of teaching them life skills, such as cooking, healthcare, personal hygiene, communication skills, and of course, typing.

A simple solution, which is not going to happen, would be get all manufacturers to produce keyboards without key labels. Within a few months everyone would be touch typing.

I think the keyboard of the future will be symmetrical but will still have key labels. A symmetrical keyboard resembles the natural position and angle of the hands, and it's more likely to lure newcomers down the touch typing path. With the traditional QWERTY keyboard I had to read a typing course book to figure out which fingers should press which keys. But a keyboard like the ErgoDox is pretty much self-documenting, in terms of fingering.

Perhaps in the future laptops will have very low profile symmetrical keyboards, similar in layout to the ErgoDox, but much lower profile (scissor mechanism), fitted with a folding tenting mechanism such that optionally springs open and locks in place mechanism. Whether it will happen within our lifetime is different story.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Fri, 06 February 2015, 04:02:49
I blame schools for teaching kids to use computers but not teaching them how to type.
I've been taught the basics of touch-typing when I was 10 at school. Using a neat program where a conveyor belt was bringing letters, and you had a trap in the middle that could catch the letter should you press the right key at the right moment. First, it was the keys on the home row, then you were working with the letters all over the board. It's something like 26 years in the past, but I can still see the yellow letters flowing on the blue background. ^_^

I'm pretty sure that many kids of my age at this time were given the opportunity to do the same here.

That being said, I don't think that touch typing is a more valuable lesson than most of what's done in schools.

I'm not even convinced that touch-typing is so important for most peoples (although I find it obviously valuable myself).

With the traditional QWERTY keyboard I had to read a typing course book to figure out which fingers should press which keys.
There's different views about which fingers should be used for each key, and I'm not even convinced that there's a definitive finger that should be use on a key (like some really proficient typist, by the way). I created my "own" way to touch-type, although I read later my mother's books out of curiosity (that differ a bit from the usual suggestion, but I like them better because they are closer to symmetry, using for example middle finger for X).

I'd say I can live with the ISO-ANSI being a standard for home computers, since I can still choose the variation I like the most. The issue is indeed with laptops, and I don't believe I'll see the day where we'll see a decent keyboard on a laptop, unfortunately.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Fri, 06 February 2015, 08:24:19
I agree with these two. I have both an ergodox and a truly ergonomic.

Did you buy the ErgoDox after the TEK because you were looking for something better? How do the two compare (pros cons about both)?

I had the Ergodox first. I bought the TEK because I wanted something to use at work that was similar to the Ergodox, but slightly less "out there" so I wouldn't get so many questions from people. Also I kind of don't trust some of the people who have access to my office after-hours, so I didn't want to leave something that I've put so much effort into making like the Ergodox around... I can replace a TEK but the Ergodox would be a pain in the ass to replace.

I do like both of them but in different ways.

Ergodox Pros:
Ergodox Cons:

TEK Pros:
TEK Cons:

If I had to choose only one, it'd be the Ergodox for sure. The TE is a compromise that I got because it's a bit more suitable for my work environment.

I don't actually use the larger keys in the middle of either the Ergodox or the TEK much. I think that's partially because I'm constantly switching between the two boards, so any keys on the layouts that are different between them, I tend not to use or remember what they're programmed to.

Quote
I like to hit the left- and right-most keys (shift keys on a normal keyboard) with my palms, at the base of my pinkies, so I normally would map those to be the Enter key. Looking at the US version of the TEK, and also AcidFire's keyboard, these keys are slightly wider which means they may be easier to press this way by a range of users with varying hand sizes.

For me the centre column has always been (from top to bottom) Win key, Ctrl, Alt. On the ErgoDox there are two larger keys straddling the home row vertically, which is not the case on the TEK or AcidFire's keyboard, I wonder which one feels better in practice.

I personally prefer the Ergodox layout for the center keys but that may be because that's what I started with. I find it more natural to just reach over with my pointing finger on both hands, feels like a bigger target. Maybe you could get used to either though?

Quote
Show Image
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98636804/Forums/GeekHack/2015-02-05-213437 Middle keys.png)

Show Image
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98636804/Forums/GeekHack/2015-02-05-213534 Middle keys.png)


Also, could you comment on the enclosure? The ErgoDox one seems kind of boxy with those sharp corners, while the TEK one is curvier and somehow more "inviting", so to speak.

I thought the same thing about the case being boxy, so I bought the czarek case for my Ergodox that seems much more compact, so I can't comment on the standard Ergodox case because I've never had one. I'm very happy with the czarek case. I do like the solidity and feel of the rounded edges of the TEK case. The whole thing feels nice and solid. Unfortunately for me, my TEK wasn't made as well electronically as it was physically.

Quote
I have programmed the left arrow key on the teck so it is a Fn key that I hold down with my thumb to turn the home row into arrows. So I don't even have to move my hand, I just press the thumbkey and J is left, K is down, L is right, and I is up. Also H is Home, ; is End, U is PgUp and O is PgDn.

My ergodox is set the same, using one of the thumbkeys.

I use dvorak so it's not actually those keys, but you get the idea.

I could not go back to a layout without such a setup anymore. It's so useful being able to navigate without moving your hand.

That's really interesting. I did a prototype layout yesterday on a Japanese HHK2 Lite which has a bunch of extra thumb keys. I moved all keys of the right hand to the right by one key, so I get an extra column in the centre which now contains Ctrl, Alt and Win (so it is basically a poor-man's TEK).

When I press and hold the left thumb modifier key I get numbers under my left hand and arrow keys under my right. I am finding key combinations such as Shift+Home (which on a normal keyboard only involve two keys) hard to get the hang of, because of the extra modifier key involved. I think my problem is that the way I've set it up I have to press Shift and the modifier with the same hand, the way you've set yours up you are probably pressing the modifier with the right thumb and Shift with the left hand, am I right?

That's correct. I still find it a bit difficult when I want to select the last word (shift-ctrl-left) and things like that though. My brain finds it harder when I have to do two modifiers. But any combination using a single or no modifier feels natural to me.

BTW the thumbkey also turns the numbers into Fkeys, which I also find very natural because the Ergodox doesn't have Fkeys, and I know how to touchtype numbers.

Quote
I've been using layers for symbols and numbers for many  years (since 2002 actually), but I always had my arrow keys mapped to the numbers row, so maybe I have grown used to the immediacy of dedicated arrow keys vs using a layer for that. Therefore I'd like to hear about your adaptation experience.

I found it super easy once I set up that thumb navigation layer. Never had any trouble getting used to it.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 11 February 2015, 16:09:57
Wow, lots of awesome discussion going back and forth with this! I've been reading and trying a few things quietly, and I think for the initial layout we'll be going with a bit more of a normal bottom row. For those of you wanting a more traditional arrow cluster, it's marked down as the first layout option to be released after the initial product run is done. Also thank you Clickclack for the break down between the ergodox & the TEK, immensely helpful.

For those of you who don't make use of twitter, I've recently been accepted as part of the pre production testing for a new bit of cloud software called Onshape. Onshape is basically like Solidworks but delivered via the browser instead of a desktop app, with all the rendering done on their servers. I've been assured that there will always be a free version (fully featured too), which means those of you looking to build or modify your own designs will have an easy & free tool to do so (including the ability to fork any design I've shared). Unfortunately an NDA prevents me from saying too much about the software, I will tell you that it's been pretty fantastic to build in and I'm hoping this is the defacto tool I use for Axios right up to production.

Also on the design side, I wanted to share a little bit of my thought processes and why the casing seems to be taking so long to finish. I've said from the start that it wouldn't go to crowdfunding until I was 80-90% happy with the design; this used to be "production ready", but I've since learned that especially with user feedback that won't happen right out of the gate. I do however want to keep the dev cycle after funding to an absolute minimum, hence the seeming "perfectionism".

Up until I switched over to an adjustable design, things were relatively straight forward; this changed quite a bit however when I did. In order to accommodate the adjustable design, I lost roughly 30-40% of the space you would normally find in a standard mechanical keyboard case. This was to allow the arms to move in and out as well as up and down, all while using standard hardware to do so.

 Connectors have been the other major design consideration. I've had input devices that come with custom cables and once one of those disappears in a move or even dragging it to and from school/work/lan parties/wherever, they're either impossible to replace or ridiculously expensive for what they are. While the original plan was to go with TRRS cables like the ergodox, I've seen enough complaints about failed connectors/cables that I started looking at other options. I've since landed on using phone handset cables, often mislabeled as RJ9/10/11. They're easier to find than TRRS cables, more robust and have a greater number of options for things like curled for less clutter. They also make a more solid connection and more importantly, there's no chance of shorting something out while you're plugging them in (a risk with TRRS). There's only one problem with them: the size of the modular jack.

Modifying the case design to fit them meant I had to add another 3mm to the height of the case, which is never ideal. There are a few positives though; I can now use standard 3mm thumbscrews, and it gave me enough room in the case that the folding stand can now sit flush with the bottom of the case when not in use. A bonus on top of this is that the 1/4"-20 mount is now hidden by the stand when packed up, protecting it for travel. Also worth mentioning is the additional space for these connectors also opens the doors for others, like the potential ability to use ethernet cables for bridging or for the use of a full size B connector (seriously, I've had more than a few people ask).

The other problem with using the modular jacks and their height is their length. While only 6mm longer than the TRRS connectors, in design this small that's a massive difference especially since their height would mean having to increase the thickness of the case further to prevent potential shorts between the legs of the switches and the PCBs for the connectors. To counteract that, I've made the difficult decision to eliminate the f-row mounts and increase the space at the top of the unit by roughly the amount it would have taken up. It's not all bad news however; not only does this make enough room for the connectors, I have enough space left over to add the missing 3 keys from the thumb cluster to the empty space not set aside for the connectors. It also allows for a larger, more stable folding stand and room for a bigger battery for the wireless option.

As for the now orphaned f-row keys, the increase in the depth would allow for another module the size of the thumb cluster to be mounted there, and with allowing for some space for the RGB controller, you would be able to add an additional 6-9 keys :D

On top of all this, I'm still trying to balance the aesthetics, because while I know we all value function (and RSI relief) over looks having a nice looking board helps to get the public on board. During the events I attended last year with prototypes, I got more positive "must have" feedback from the general public than I ever would have expected. And this is absolutely the sort of thing we want to see, the more boards we sell, the better rates I can get for parts & manufacturing and thus the cheaper I can sell them. And more importantly, just that many more people we're helping and educating that the current standards suck and there are better options out there.

Hopefully this is all clear, and if it's not don't fret as I'll have additional photos soon (hopefully renders as well when if i can get permission to post screen caps from Onshape).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jeep on Wed, 11 February 2015, 17:39:32
 Thanks for the update!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: JackMills on Thu, 12 February 2015, 10:30:17
Interesting insight in the design decisions, thank you for sharing AcidFire.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: GenuineMP5 on Wed, 18 February 2015, 14:43:11
Just found out about this today. Spent the last couple hours reading through the entire thread. While this (http://xahlee.info/kbd/i3/axios/axios_keyboard_model-01-02.jpg) version would have been the one I wanted, I certainly see how something like the current version would appeal to a larger crowd.

AcidFire, absolutely amazing work all around! Now, I'm going to go play with Lego and pretend I'm anywhere near as skilled as you.

Looking forward to watching progress of this!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: solarundies on Fri, 20 February 2015, 10:01:35
It's awesome to hear that you're back working on this! I'm excited to see your new design choices.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 25 February 2015, 02:32:09
In the last week or so, I've had a couple of epiphanies (hurray for long drives home!) that have not only cleared up some electrical design issues, but more importantly reduced the cost to produce the casing by a substantial amount.

First, for those of you who were missing the three keys on the thumb cluster they've been added back, in a bit of a different spot:
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-94.jpg)

And as I mentioned previously, the f-row/hotkeys now have a new home:
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-95.jpg)

With the plan to release something down the road to connect the halves in the center, we'll end up with a layout that looks something like this:
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-96.jpg)

As I mentioned, I believe I've found a way to eliminate the need for slides from the injection molds, which is a not insubstantial savings -
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-100.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-101.jpg)

I've also been working on & testing thumbscrews -
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-97.jpg)
Both of these have been very promising :D

Along with the case design I've been finalizing the connectors. The kits will most likely come with Mini/Micro USB, 6p4c connectors and a blank or two. However for the beta unit we'll be including all of them for extensive feedback from you guys.
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-98.jpg)
Top Row, left to right:
- 4p4c (Phone Handset Cables RJ11Mini)
- 6p6c (Phone Wall Cable RJ11)
- 8p8c (Ethernet Cable)
Middle Row, left to right:
- 3.5mm TRRS Cable
- Mini/Micro B USB
- Full Size B USB
Bottom Row:
- Blank Cap

I'll post more as they come off the printer.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Faokryn on Wed, 25 February 2015, 03:00:40
Well, you can count me among those who registered an account to comment on this amazing project.  :]

AcidFire, first of all, your commitment to open source and to accommodating those with disabilities is commendable and inspiring.  Not to mention how inspirational this project as a whole is: reading through the thread made me want to get out and make things!

I found a link to this thread on a blog post regarding the ErgoDox, and referencing the original ErgoGP design.  Since learning about the ErgoDox a few months ago, I've been excited about potential modding capability, but I think the Axios's modular design will be even better, allowing the creation of custom modules (and releasing them open source for anyone who wants, of course :] ).  Now I'm watching this thread, subscribed to the crowd supply, following on Twitter, and among those eagerly awaiting each update!

I do have a couple of questions / comments regarding some of the most recent design changes.

3) Thumb cluster switch changes
The more I look at the design, the top three 1u switches on each side seem to be counter intuitive to the end goal of reducing strain by reducing travel, so I'm experimenting with dropping them. In their place, I'm looking at using the space for a set of 5 RGB LEDs on each side for indicators, since dropping the switches & caps helps to balance out the cost while putting them in a nice visible position. For those of you asking for some kind of display, this would also make for a very handy mounting point.

I have enough space left over to add the missing 3 keys from the thumb cluster to the empty space not set aside for the connectors.

So one row of 1u keys has been moved from the thumb cluster to the top of the keyboard, and replaced by indicator LEDs?  It seems like the keys would also be difficult to reach at the top of the keyboard.  Isn't it better to have the extra keys on the thumb cluster, even if they're secondary to the other two rows? Perhaps moving the LEDs to the top of the keyboard instead?  I was under the impression that having more thumb cluster keys is optimal, because it allows you to have more keys for changing layers while keeping the rest of your fingers on the home keys.  I'm interested to hear some opinions regarding that from people who have ergonomic keyboards (I don't).

Anyway, I'm sure we'll see the all-key thumb cluster module down the road, if not as a stretch goal for the crowd funding campaign, then soon thereafter.  I for one wouldn't mind having one all-key thumb cluster and one indicator LED one (the opinion has already been expressed that 5 LEDs is more than enough for many people).  That's the best part about this system!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: JackMills on Thu, 26 February 2015, 01:50:55
I am curious to see how the new hotkeys cluster looks like when tented. Good job on improving your design for manufacturing, most people don't realize how important this is, so kudos on that. I always liked this total approach of you and I am very anxious to get hold on one of these, but I am also willing to wait because I think you could produce something very nice.

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Thu, 26 February 2015, 15:01:02
AcidFire, I may have thought one second about cursing you for making me adapt again my layout, but...

But it's just great, as usual. Can't wait, really.

Using the available space on top to put back the buttons from the thumb cluster is nice (it's maybe even better for me, in fact). I'm curious to see how the "f-keys" add-on can be secured in place when folded strongly enough, but I'm sure it'll be nice.

Thanks for all your hard work, and I hope that the accident is just a bad memory for your family now.

Isn't it better to have the extra keys on the thumb cluster, even if they're secondary to the other two rows? Perhaps moving the LEDs to the top of the keyboard instead?  I was under the impression that having more thumb cluster keys is optimal, because it allows you to have more keys for changing layers while keeping the rest of your fingers on the home keys.
The third row on the thumb clusters was quite difficult to reach, anyway. You probably can't use them during "normal" typing. I think "out of reach" keys still have their use (for a pause key, a behavior-tweaking key, etc.), so that's great we don't lose those, I think.

As far as layers are concerned, if you combine both sides, you could already have 49 (7*7) layers directly available without even pressing two keys with a thumb (which is definitively possible for adjacent keys). And that also don't take into account that a single key can be used at the same time as a layer switch and a dead key, so you can have several hundreds layers available easily. Probably more than you can remember...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 26 February 2015, 16:53:25
Well, you can count me among those who registered an account to comment on this amazing project.  :]

AcidFire, first of all, your commitment to open source and to accommodating those with disabilities is commendable and inspiring.  Not to mention how inspirational this project as a whole is: reading through the thread made me want to get out and make things!

I found a link to this thread on a blog post regarding the ErgoDox, and referencing the original ErgoGP design.  Since learning about the ErgoDox a few months ago, I've been excited about potential modding capability, but I think the Axios's modular design will be even better, allowing the creation of custom modules (and releasing them open source for anyone who wants, of course :] ).  Now I'm watching this thread, subscribed to the crowd supply, following on Twitter, and among those eagerly awaiting each update!
Awesome, glad to have you aboard! If you have it, would you mind sharing the blog post where you found the link?

As for your questions...
So one row of 1u keys has been moved from the thumb cluster to the top of the keyboard, and replaced by indicator LEDs?  It seems like the keys would also be difficult to reach at the top of the keyboard.  Isn't it better to have the extra keys on the thumb cluster, even if they're secondary to the other two rows? Perhaps moving the LEDs to the top of the keyboard instead?  I was under the impression that having more thumb cluster keys is optimal, because it allows you to have more keys for changing layers while keeping the rest of your fingers on the home keys.  I'm interested to hear some opinions regarding that from people who have ergonomic keyboards (I don't).

Anyway, I'm sure we'll see the all-key thumb cluster module down the road, if not as a stretch goal for the crowd funding campaign, then soon thereafter.  I for one wouldn't mind having one all-key thumb cluster and one indicator LED one (the opinion has already been expressed that 5 LEDs is more than enough for many people).  That's the best part about this system!
I probably should have been more clear about the strain I mentioned regarding removing the top row of thumb keys. While they're not completely terrible when the board lays flat, when tented and dropped they introduce a fairly severe ulnar deviation (http://www.ergovancouver.net/wrist_movements.htm) and given that the core of this project is ergonomics above all else it goes directly against the device's goals. Even as a key you'd occasionally strike by lifting your hands, you're now introducing Pronation strain (http://www.ergovancouver.net/wrist_movements.htm) as you rotate your wrist around to hit it. With the keys in their new home, it's a shoulder-elbow-wrist movement similar to lifting and striking the F row, or a mouse movement with a substantial reduction on strain.

For those who absolutely must have three rows of keys, the 9x9 hot key cluster can be used in the thumb cluster as well, with the trade off being a reduced hit box for each of the keys. As for a module down the road adding them back, I honestly don't see that as something we'll release since a change in the case design to strengthen the cap that surrounds the keys on the top (and prevents light leaks) has shortened the 45° angled side, requiring a reduction in the length of the thumb module. I could leave it at the original length, however that adds to the cost of the device since every part of the thumb cluster is designed to be used for both halves of the board. While adding another cavity to a mold isn't a huge expense, there's also the requirement to now stock both and unlike the main case which are very clear in their difference, the thumb bottoms are less so and I would hate to accidentally ship the wrong part. By pure serendipity, the vertical side where the main clusters can connect was lengthened to nearly match the 45° side, negating the need for an extra set of molds for the hot keys.

Regarding the indicator LEDs, you may notice that I've reduced them to three per side. When I had my little epiphany (or realization that I was being stubborn) and figured out that I don't need LED control electronics in the thumb clusters, I also discovered that with the 2x3 1.5 layout that meant that I would have three RGB LEDs free. So, cost savings (component count reduction) + easier programming = win. As part of the development with the backlight, I've decided that you'll be able to assign three different behaviors to each key's backlight individually.
- Open - Answers to both backlighting/animations & indicator calls, with indicators taking priority by default (possible to make it user selectable to prioritize backlight as well)
- Backlight - Answers only to backlighting calls.
- Indicator - Answers only to indicator calls. These will be user assignable as well, with certain functions built into the keyboard and the desktop software augmenting it (for things like tweets or email notifications).

I am curious to see how the new hotkeys cluster looks like when tented. Good job on improving your design for manufacturing, most people don't realize how important this is, so kudos on that. I always liked this total approach of you and I am very anxious to get hold on one of these, but I am also willing to wait because I think you could produce something very nice.
I am as well, I'm still learning the assembly side of Onshape so modeling the tented outcome has not been happening for me. That being said, I will admit that I'm not the biggest fan of the way it all looks flat, with the exception of the two sides connected. Hopefully I should have all my parts printed by the end of the weekend and we'll see it in the flesh.

And I very much appreciate the support and patience while I dial these things in, while I'm also very anxious to get it into everyone's hands I also don't want that to happen until I know for sure that the end product is feasible. I've watched far too many crowd funded (kickstarters especially) drag on for months or years because they didn't take this time to do it right, and I am adamant that won't happen with Axios.

AcidFire, I may have thought one second about cursing you for making me adapt again my layout, but...

But it's just great, as usual. Can't wait, really.

Using the available space on top to put back the buttons from the thumb cluster is nice (it's maybe even better for me, in fact). I'm curious to see how the "f-keys" add-on can be secured in place when folded strongly enough, but I'm sure it'll be nice.

Thanks for all your hard work, and I hope that the accident is just a bad memory for your family now.
Ha I wouldn't blame you, I've mentally smacked myself a couple of times each time I change it because it means I also have to update the PCBs as well. I've learned to wait and handwire until I'm satisfied with the end result.

I'm not concerned about the strength of the mount for the hot keys cluster as the new thumbscrews make it very easy to tighten down, and short of HULK SMASH style typing they won't move (though it is designed to give with enough force to prevent the mounts from being damaged).

Isn't it better to have the extra keys on the thumb cluster, even if they're secondary to the other two rows? Perhaps moving the LEDs to the top of the keyboard instead?  I was under the impression that having more thumb cluster keys is optimal, because it allows you to have more keys for changing layers while keeping the rest of your fingers on the home keys.
The third row on the thumb clusters was quite difficult to reach, anyway. You probably can't use them during "normal" typing. I think "out of reach" keys still have their use (for a pause key, a behavior-tweaking key, etc.), so that's great we don't lose those, I think.

As far as layers are concerned, if you combine both sides, you could already have 49 (7*7) layers directly available without even pressing two keys with a thumb (which is definitively possible for adjacent keys). And that also don't take into account that a single key can be used at the same time as a layer switch and a dead key, so you can have several hundreds layers available easily. Probably more than you can remember...
[/quote]
Pretty much this. I think your title going forward Koren will have to be "Keeper Of Layouts" ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Faokryn on Thu, 26 February 2015, 22:42:52
If you have it, would you mind sharing the blog post where you found the link?

Absolutely! http://adereth.github.io/blog/2014/02/12/building-an-ergodox/ (http://adereth.github.io/blog/2014/02/12/building-an-ergodox/)

The third row on the thumb clusters was quite difficult to reach, anyway. You probably can't use them during "normal" typing. I think "out of reach" keys still have their use (for a pause key, a behavior-tweaking key, etc.), so that's great we don't lose those, I think.
I probably should have been more clear about the strain I mentioned regarding removing the top row of thumb keys...

Well, I trust your expertise, and your experiences using the prototypes!  Thank you for the further information.

And Koren, I agree that "out of reach" keys have their uses  :)

For those who absolutely must have three rows of keys, the 9x9 hot key cluster can be used in the thumb cluster as well, with the trade off being a reduced hit box for each of the keys. As for a module down the road adding them back, I honestly don't see that as something we'll release since a change in the case design to strengthen the cap that surrounds the keys on the top (and prevents light leaks) has shortened the 45° angled side, requiring a reduction in the length of the thumb module. I could leave it at the original length, however that adds to the cost of the device since every part of the thumb cluster is designed to be used for both halves of the board. While adding another cavity to a mold isn't a huge expense, there's also the requirement to now stock both and unlike the main case which are very clear in their difference, the thumb bottoms are less so and I would hate to accidentally ship the wrong part. By pure serendipity, the vertical side where the main clusters can connect was lengthened to nearly match the 45° side, negating the need for an extra set of molds for the hot keys.

Using the 9x9 cluster would meet what I was thinking of just fine!  Though with your and Koren's advice, I realize it might not be comfortable.  Still, my curious nature means it's probably something I'll have to try out, as long as I'm correct in thinking the normal thumb cluster and the hot key cluster will be easy to swap, since they'll be using the same mold  ;D

Regarding the indicator LEDs, you may notice that I've reduced them to three per side. When I had my little epiphany (or realization that I was being stubborn) and figured out that I don't need LED control electronics in the thumb clusters, I also discovered that with the 2x3 1.5 layout that meant that I would have three RGB LEDs free. So, cost savings (component count reduction) + easier programming = win. As part of the development with the backlight, I've decided that you'll be able to assign three different behaviors to each key's backlight individually.
- Open - Answers to both backlighting/animations & indicator calls, with indicators taking priority by default (possible to make it user selectable to prioritize backlight as well)
- Backlight - Answers only to backlighting calls.
- Indicator - Answers only to indicator calls. These will be user assignable as well, with certain functions built into the keyboard and the desktop software augmenting it (for things like tweets or email notifications).

Cool modification! I love that you're constantly squeezing more efficiency out of your design!  And even with three lights, that's 8 indication states without even changing the color.  That's quite versatile!

As far as layers are concerned, if you combine both sides, you could already have 49 (7*7) layers directly available without even pressing two keys with a thumb (which is definitively possible for adjacent keys). And that also don't take into account that a single key can be used at the same time as a layer switch and a dead key, so you can have several hundreds layers available easily. Probably more than you can remember...

I meant more as single-key modifiers to use quickly while typing, but I understand that you have practically limitless layer mapping when combining keys.  I was even thinking of maybe having a "layer layer" (activated by one of the "out of reach" keys) that would map a set of keys to then switch to other layouts for specific applications.  That could be nifty!  :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Fri, 27 February 2015, 04:17:52
I meant more as single-key modifiers to use quickly while typing
I don't think you should be worried...

If I understand you well, that's still 12 alternate layers directly availables with a single thumb (without pressing "between" keys) and 36 by using both...

Following a Zipf law, each layer tend to be really roughly ~50 times less useful than the previous one in a given context (depending on how keys you actually use on the main part of the keypad), so even if you'll probably need the first three layers on a regular basis, the fourth one should be useful each hour, the next one each week, then each year, a couple a time in a life, then never. Three layer switchs on both thumbs are probably sufficient to store your needs for a lifetime.

Though there's a catch. "In a givent context" is important : you could probably want different layers when you're changing the language (russian, asian languages...), the application (for shortcuts), etc. For example, I'd like a key giving me α in a "normal" context but "\alpha" in a "LaTeX" mode (having a greek-LaTeX macro layer will probably spare me hours each year). But hitting an additionnal key to switch the context, or a harder to reach one, is not a problem.

I'd suggest you to try designing your layout, you'll probably run out of ideas before running out of layer switchers ^_^

I was even thinking of maybe having a "layer layer" (activated by one of the "out of reach" keys) that would map a set of keys to then switch to other layouts for specific applications.  That could be nifty!  :)
Actually, that's totally what I intend to do ^_^
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Faokryn on Sat, 28 February 2015, 00:24:12
I don't think you should be worried...

If I understand you well, that's still 12 alternate layers directly availables with a single thumb (without pressing "between" keys) and 36 by using both...

Following a Zipf law, each layer tend to be really roughly ~50 times less useful than the previous one in a given context (depending on how keys you actually use on the main part of the keypad), so even if you'll probably need the first three layers on a regular basis, the fourth one should be useful each hour, the next one each week, then each year, a couple a time in a life, then never. Three layer switchs on both thumbs are probably sufficient to store your needs for a lifetime.

Oh, I'm not worried, personally.  I have never had a keyboard with thumb switches before, but I have some friends who do (they're the one's who pointed me towards the ErgoDox in the first place, which led me here) and I had gotten the "more thumb switches == better" impression from them.  I don't really know exactly how I'll use it yet, and as you have said, just a few is probably more than I'll want or need.  I was more just curious to hear people's thoughts, given my previous impression.

Honestly, I'm much more likely to use the layers to organize and use macros than I am to have a bunch of modifiers to use while typing.  <anecdote> A few years ago, I was really heavily using the website tumblr, and I was very meticulously tagging my posts.  I had an old USB numpad, and I used the software Controller Mate to make a bunch of macros to help me tag things more quickly.  Most of the buttons on the numpad represented a show, comic, or video game about which I often reblogged art or other content.  Pressing one of these keys printed the name of the series and remapped the numpad so the keys represented characters from the series, or, if there were a lot of characters, groups of characters (antagonists and protagonists, factions, whatever made sense for the series).  I also had some keys that would print the names of every character in a group or of a bunch of characters that often appeared together in posts.  And of course I had two keys which always represented "go back one step" and "go back to the beginning" respectively.  It was pretty useful given how much I used the site back then. </anecdote> I don't plan on setting that up again, but it shows you the kind of stuff for which I have a tendency.  :D

I'd suggest you to try designing your layout, you'll probably run out of ideas before running out of layer switchers ^_^

I really should.  But first I have to decide if I'm going to stick with QWERTY, or if I'm going to use the switch to an ergonomic keyboard as an opportunity to switch to an alternative layout, like Colemak or Programmer Dvorak.  ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Niomosy on Mon, 02 March 2015, 19:58:38
I blame schools for teaching kids to use computers but not teaching them how to type.

For my oldest, typing is a requirement for the elementary school and something they do as homework on a regular basis.   That's a good thing as we were encouraged to type but there was never a really strong emphasis put on it in any computer class I've taken in elementary school or Jr. High back in the days of the Apple IIe in schools.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Scoox on Tue, 03 March 2015, 00:05:26
I blame schools for teaching kids to use computers but not teaching them how to type.

For my oldest, typing is a requirement for the elementary school and something they do as homework on a regular basis.   That's a good thing as we were encouraged to type but there was never a really strong emphasis put on it in any computer class I've taken in elementary school or Jr. High back in the days of the Apple IIe in schools.

That's nice to hear. A lot of schools don't teach practical skills.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: pdf on Thu, 05 March 2015, 22:42:03
I've made the difficult decision to eliminate the f-row mounts and increase the space at the top of the unit by roughly the amount it would have taken up. It's not all bad news however; not only does this make enough room for the connectors, I have enough space left over to add the missing 3 keys from the thumb cluster to the empty space not set aside for the connectors. It also allows for a larger, more stable folding stand and room for a bigger battery for the wireless option.

As for the now orphaned f-row keys, the increase in the depth would allow for another module the size of the thumb cluster to be mounted there, and with allowing for some space for the RGB controller, you would be able to add an additional 6-9 keys :D
I've been really looking forward to this keyboard, however I was already a little worried about how easy to reach the function keys were going to be, now with them moved to be largely inaccessible, I think this is a deal-breaker for me - they're an integral and frequent part of my daily workflow  :(
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: QuadGMoto on Fri, 06 March 2015, 08:17:06
I think I need to lobby for TECK style diamond key arrangements for the arrow, page up/down, and home/end keys. I know the thinking is that making them linear in the bottom row makes it possible to hit them without moving your hands, and that may be true.


But how many times do you hit those particular keys just once? How many times do you hit only one of those keys? Is it really feasible to reach two rows down without moving your hands? It seems to me (IMNSHO) that even with "in line" arrangements of these keys, moving your hands to reach them is still normal. Heck, even in my current TECK, the keys are in range for normal typing, but moving to reach them is normal because of how they're used.


Because of how they're used, they're also highly directional. But laying out such directional keys in a line means you either have to memorize something that's counter-intuitive (move left to go up, right to go down, or visa-versa) or look back and forth between the keys and screen.


Bottom line, if you're going to be moving your hands to use those keys anyway (actually more of a shoulder movement than hand movement), then the keys should be laid out in the most intuitive and quick to use arrangement.


I'm still excited about this project, and this probably wouldn't be a showstopper for me. But I do feel quite strongly about this.  ;D


I haven't seen any discussion of a paired numeric keypad for a while. (Really important when typing lots of numbers, and I do.) Is that going to be part of this project?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: hoggy on Fri, 06 March 2015, 14:51:47
I understand your point about the arrangement of navigation keys, but once I got used to those keys on my kinesis advantage... :-)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: sordna on Fri, 06 March 2015, 20:32:11
I understand your point about the arrangement of navigation keys, but once I got used to those keys on my kinesis advantage... :-)

Same here. I am fully accustomed to regular arrow clusters and Kinesis Advantage arrow keys, and honestly I prefer the Kinesis Advantage arrangement.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jleechpe on Mon, 09 March 2015, 10:03:57
I think I need to lobby for TECK style diamond key arrangements for the arrow, page up/down, and home/end keys. I know the thinking is that making them linear in the bottom row makes it possible to hit them without moving your hands, and that may be true.


But how many times do you hit those particular keys just once? How many times do you hit only one of those keys? Is it really feasible to reach two rows down without moving your hands? It seems to me (IMNSHO) that even with "in line" arrangements of these keys, moving your hands to reach them is still normal. Heck, even in my current TECK, the keys are in range for normal typing, but moving to reach them is normal because of how they're used.


Because of how they're used, they're also highly directional. But laying out such directional keys in a line means you either have to memorize something that's counter-intuitive (move left to go up, right to go down, or visa-versa) or look back and forth between the keys and screen.


Bottom line, if you're going to be moving your hands to use those keys anyway (actually more of a shoulder movement than hand movement), then the keys should be laid out in the most intuitive and quick to use arrangement.

On the one hand I agree.  When at work with a generic HP keyboard I am very used to just dropping my hand over to the arrow cluster (inverted T) and using it to navigate.
On the other hand, setting it up like it is on the Kinesis is actually quite easy to get used to.  One hand is left-right, the other is up down.  Other than it being two handed, it is essentially the same as the HJKL cluster in VI for moving around (once your fingers know it there isn't any extra effort involved).

I haven't seen any discussion of a paired numeric keypad for a while. (Really important when typing lots of numbers, and I do.) Is that going to be part of this project?

I suspect the solution to this will be similar to the Kinesis situation.  Some sort of Layer Toggle that changes the right hand cluster into a 10-key (thumb keys for 0 and Enter, various mathematical options on number keys and to the right of the 'numbers'.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Faokryn on Mon, 09 March 2015, 12:13:16
I think I need to lobby for TECK style diamond key arrangements for the arrow, page up/down, and home/end keys...

...Because of how they're used, they're also highly directional...

...the keys should be laid out in the most intuitive and quick to use arrangement...

I, for one, probably won't even use those keys for arrows, page up/down, and home/end, opting instead to use a layer to map the vim directional hjkl to arrows etc.  Placing the keys in a cross has an implicit directional connotation, which, as you mentioned, makes sense if you're going to use them for directionally-associated functions, but it's a very counter-intuitive layout for anyone planning on using them for anything else.  With the newer configuration, the keys don't have that implicit directional connotation for anyone planning on using them for other things, but (unless I'm mistaken) will still be in a somewhat directional layout, similar to the inverted T, for anyone who does want to use them for those functions.

AcidFire, I think you're going to find this one a very divided issue with strong opinions on both sides.  I'd advise you to go with the configuration that you want, and the rest will have to wait for a swap-in board down the road.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 09 March 2015, 18:58:16
I've been really looking forward to this keyboard, however I was already a little worried about how easy to reach the function keys were going to be, now with them moved to be largely inaccessible, I think this is a deal-breaker for me - they're an integral and frequent part of my daily workflow  :(
Unfortunately I think this is the case with any staggered design that doesn't move the f keys to match that pattern (of which I don't actually think I've seen any). I hope you'll still be willing to try a unit when they're done, maybe the new cluster or even a remap will end up being to your satisfaction.


I think I need to lobby for TECK style diamond key arrangements for the arrow, page up/down, and home/end keys. I know the thinking is that making them linear in the bottom row makes it possible to hit them without moving your hands, and that may be true.
- snip -
I, for one, probably won't even use those keys for arrows, page up/down, and home/end, opting instead to use a layer to map the vim directional hjkl to arrows etc.  Placing the keys in a cross has an implicit directional connotation, which, as you mentioned, makes sense if you're going to use them for directionally-associated functions, but it's a very counter-intuitive layout for anyone planning on using them for anything else.  With the newer configuration, the keys don't have that implicit directional connotation for anyone planning on using them for other things, but (unless I'm mistaken) will still be in a somewhat directional layout, similar to the inverted T, for anyone who does want to use them for those functions.

AcidFire, I think you're going to find this one a very divided issue with strong opinions on both sides.  I'd advise you to go with the configuration that you want, and the rest will have to wait for a swap-in board down the road.
I think you both make very good points. And there's no need to lobby for the arrows as a cluster, that'll be the first alternate cluster setup that will be released. Depending on how the campaign goes, I'm currently looking at making it the first (and very low) stretch goal since its mostly a difference in production costs.

I haven't seen any discussion of a paired numeric keypad for a while. (Really important when typing lots of numbers, and I do.) Is that going to be part of this project?
It's still in the works as an addon (and possibly stand alone (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c-F7cAK3LY)(sorry inner GitS nerd couldn't help it!)) to follow the initial launch.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Tue, 10 March 2015, 16:15:22
I think you both make very good points. And there's no need to lobby for the arrows as a cluster, that'll be the first alternate cluster setup that will be released. Depending on how the campaign goes, I'm currently looking at making it the first (and very low) stretch goal since its mostly a difference in production costs.

Really, I don't even think you would need an alternate cluster. Just some extra holes and traces in the pcb to allow for either setup. I've seen a lot of keyboards have somewhat overlapping switch areas so you can have different spacing on the bottom row, different kinds of enter key, and so on all on the same pcb.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: smferris on Fri, 13 March 2015, 20:42:21
Historically I've always liked having dedicated arrow keys.  I used to really like the 8-key navigation cluster on the TypeMatrix 2030, which was roughly:

PageUpHomeUpEnd
PageDownLeftDownRight

I'm not sure where I'd want to put that on an Axios.  It works better in a matrix array than it will on the Axios due to the finger staggering.  The new center 3x3 grids AcidFire posted about recently aren't staggered, so they'd be an option, but probably not a particularly good one since my goal would be to have three fingers hovering over the arrows and that's awkward when they're centrally located.  I may end up trying to convert myself to the layered home row approach.  The TextBlade I just ordered does that so perhaps I'll get used to it while waiting for the Axios to go into production.

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 17 March 2015, 10:49:41
Historically I've always liked having dedicated arrow keys.  I used to really like the 8-key navigation cluster on the TypeMatrix 2030, which was roughly:

PageUpHomeUpEnd
PageDownLeftDownRight
I'm not sure where I'd want to put that on an Axios.  It works better in a matrix array than it will on the Axios due to the finger staggering.  The new center 3x3 grids AcidFire posted about recently aren't staggered, so they'd be an option, but probably not a particularly good one since my goal would be to have three fingers hovering over the arrows and that's awkward when they're centrally located.  I may end up trying to convert myself to the layered home row approach.  The TextBlade I just ordered does that so perhaps I'll get used to it while waiting for the Axios to go into production.

Alternatively, the revamped casing for the thumb cluster (which I haven't posted yet) would allow it to sit externally so that might be an option as well (thinking about setting one up like this for myself).

Really, I don't even think you would need an alternate cluster. Just some extra holes and traces in the pcb to allow for either setup. I've seen a lot of keyboards have somewhat overlapping switch areas so you can have different spacing on the bottom row, different kinds of enter key, and so on all on the same pcb.
Have you been snooping through my PCBs? ;) Yes, the footprints for the extra switches exist on the current boards, though I'm still struggling a bit to make them work with the RGB LEDs, I'm sure I can work out some sort of solution for production time.

Speaking of RGB, for those of you who would prefer Cherry MX stems, would you be open to the option of Gateron switches as a compromise? With a semi clear housing and from what I've seen a much more reasonable switch price, it's looking very doable to offer them along side the Matias. And from what I've read, those of you who have been wanting buckling spring may be interested in trying out the Gateron black equiv, they seem to feel quite similar (from what I've read anyways).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Faokryn on Tue, 17 March 2015, 19:43:05
Alternatively, the revamped casing for the thumb cluster (which I haven't posted yet) would allow it to sit externally so that might be an option as well (thinking about setting one up like this for myself).

I have to admit I've lost track of the current layout a little bit.  This is what I'm currently working with:

(http://i61.tinypic.com/30ctyio.jpg)

That's 60 x 1u caps and 22 x 1.5u caps.  Is that correct?  If not, would you mind uploading current layout information when you have a chance?

Speaking of RGB, for those of you who would prefer Cherry MX stems, would you be open to the option of Gateron switches as a compromise? With a semi clear housing and from what I've seen a much more reasonable switch price, it's looking very doable to offer them along side the Matias. And from what I've read, those of you who have been wanting buckling spring may be interested in trying out the Gateron black equiv, they seem to feel quite similar (from what I've read anyways).

Hmm.  Now you have me wondering if I should jump on the current Massdrop for the Gateron switches  ;)  Having them ahead of time would give me time to try them out to see what I like...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: berserkfan on Wed, 18 March 2015, 14:48:08

Speaking of RGB, for those of you who would prefer Cherry MX stems, would you be open to the option of Gateron switches as a compromise? With a semi clear housing and from what I've seen a much more reasonable switch price, it's looking very doable to offer them along side the Matias. And from what I've read, those of you who have been wanting buckling spring may be interested in trying out the Gateron black equiv, they seem to feel quite similar (from what I've read anyways).

I strongly urge a switch moddable plate. That way we have flexibility in putting whatever stems we like inside. Not surprisingly, I'm going for the same jailhouse greens that I've been talking about perpetually.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 18 March 2015, 16:09:05
I have to admit I've lost track of the current layout a little bit.  This is what I'm currently working with:

Show Image
(http://i61.tinypic.com/30ctyio.jpg)


That's 60 x 1u caps and 22 x 1.5u caps.  Is that correct?  If not, would you mind uploading current layout information when you have a chance?
You've got it right. For reference the current plate looks like this:
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-102.png)
Hmm.  Now you have me wondering if I should jump on the current Massdrop for the Gateron switches  ;)  Having them ahead of time would give me time to try them out to see what I like...
You can if you like, but I believe we'll be making some switch testers available before the campaign that would include the 6 common Cherry, 5 Gateron, and 3 Matias currently available. They may also be a campaign option that would include a voucher for the CrowdSupply price (lower than the final retail) minus the cost of the switch tester. We're currently looking into it.

I strongly urge a switch moddable plate. That way we have flexibility in putting whatever stems we like inside. Not surprisingly, I'm going for the same jailhouse greens that I've been talking about perpetually.
With Cherry that definitely goes without question. If you do see me post a Cherry plate without the notches, rest assured that the production models will have them. It just happens to be easier to switch between Matias & Cherry when building layouts without the notches ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: DSlayerZX on Wed, 18 March 2015, 20:40:43
Acid, just curious, do you have an estimated date that the keyboard will be available to be crowd funded?


I am really interested in this keyboard... but my wrist has been killing me lately... I might have to get something first if it's going to take a while.  >.<

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 19 March 2015, 00:44:01
I am really interested in this keyboard... but my wrist has been killing me lately...
You should sort your wrist out ASAP, don’t wait: by all means get an Axios keyboard, but don’t just work through your pain in the mean time. RSI is no joke, and continuing to repeatedly do something that is causing you pain is a good way to give yourself a serious, possibly irreparable, injury.

You might want to read some of the threads in the ergonomics subforum here at geekhack, or start a new thread showing a picture or video of yourself typing (showing your hands and at least most of your forearm). There are many possible steps to take to improve hand comfort, including improving diet/exercise/sleep, reducing time spent on hobbies that stress your hands, working less on the computer or less overall, taking frequent breaks, changing your desk/chair setup or sitting style, repositioning or reorienting your keyboard, changing your typing style/technique, changing the logical keyboard layout (away from QWERTY) or finally of course swapping out the keyboard for something with different physical shape.

Don’t stop trying to tweak your setup and habits until the pain goes away. Pain is your body’s way of telling you something is wrong.

(Disclaimer: I’m not a doctor or physical therapist, etc. Just some guy on the internet with several friends who tried to work through pain, screwed their bodies up, and needed to take long breaks from their careers to recover or have surgery.)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Thu, 19 March 2015, 04:22:02
You can if you like, but I believe we'll be making some switch testers available before the campaign that would include the 6 common Cherry, 5 Gateron, and 3 Matias currently available.
That's a really great idea. As someone that has only very limited experience with buckling springs (I'm that old T_T ) and some Cherries, I'm clueless when it comes to Matias, and never heard of Gateron...


changing the logical keyboard layout (away from QWERTY)
Plently of good advices... but I'm still not sure that Qwerty is such a pain by itself. The issue with Qwerty layout (or any 'default' layout) is probably that on typewriters, the easiest row to use is rather the upper one (shorter mechanism) than the middle one, and the layout was designed around this. Switch both upper rows and it's not a truly bad layout.

The main issue is probably the fact that the common rest position teached for such a keyboard is all fingers on the mid row. I've seen people having a resting position for the finger just one row below and have far less issues. It makes ISO layout virtually staggered, and your wrists have a far better position (angled). The only issue is that a couple of keys are a bit more farther (two "rows" up or two "rows" down, depending on the exact rest position).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 19 March 2015, 05:35:28
Plently of good advices... but I'm still not sure that Qwerty is such a pain by itself. The issue with Qwerty layout (or any 'default' layout) is probably that on typewriters, the easiest row to use is rather the upper one (shorter mechanism) than the middle one, and the layout was designed around this. Switch both upper rows and it's not a truly bad layout. The main issue is probably the fact that the common rest position teached for such a keyboard is all fingers on the mid row. [...]
The first of these is not the issue, and the second is not the main issue; these are two problems among many.

In any case, I personally know several people, and have heard from a pile more on geekhack, who switched to Dvorak or some other logical layout and found it dramatically improved their hand comfort, despite typing each physical key with a similar style to the one they used with QWERTY. Thus, switching layouts might be one thing for someone in pain to try. (Though it’s probably the most extreme type of change to adapt to, even more effort than learning to type on a changed physical layout.)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: DSlayerZX on Thu, 19 March 2015, 12:59:19
Thank Jacob, for your passionate reply.

My wrist problem is mostly stem from over work than anything. (been pulling off 50-60 hours a week in office)

I have readjusted the working position already and hopefully it will help me out to reduce my wrist pain.

The office work load should die down in a week or two since I have been pushing and rejecting projects once my wrist has started to act up.... So hopefully... it should be better soon.

Though... the fact that it was acting up really raised an alarm for me and push me into actively looking for more ergonomic keyboards... hence the last comment...


Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Thu, 19 March 2015, 13:49:29
In any case, I personally know several people, and have heard from a pile more on geekhack, who switched to Dvorak or some other logical layout and found it dramatically improved their hand comfort, despite typing each physical key with a similar style to the one they used with QWERTY.
I don't dispute the fact that the comfort will be higher if you reduce fingers motion. I'm just saying that the direct effects of a layout change on wrist pain may not be so obvious. Paying attention to wrist position even without changing the layout (and NOT using usual advices for typing, such as the one below, unless your waist is 10cm broad) is probably the most important thing to do.

More
(http://mrclauslab.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/8/0/13802513/9824594_orig.jpg)

I wouldn't be surprised that a layout with less vertical fingers motion help people maintaining a better wrist angle, explaining some seen benefits from layout. I wouldn't be surprised there's also a placebo effect in play. I've even seen people arguing Dvorak induce more strain for them than Qwerty.

I'd stay the worst thing with qwerty is not the layout, it's the way you learn to touchtype on it...

Beside that, I'm obviously in favor of better layouts than Qwerty (although I'm definitively not fan of Dvorak or Bépo, especially the alternating part)


Software that program micro-breaks seems to be useful, too...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 19 March 2015, 14:36:29
Paying attention to wrist position even without changing the layout (and NOT using usual advices for typing, such as the one below, unless your waist is 10cm broad) is probably the most important thing to do.
I feel like we’re arguing just for the sake of it, not really disagreeing. You might want to follow the ergonomics subforum (here are some posts of mine about precisely this: 1 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67996.msg1607538#msg1607538) 2 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67996.msg1608213#msg1608213) 3 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69126.msg1654198#msg1654198) 4 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69705.msg1674235#msg1674235) 5 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=70015.msg1682858#msg1682858)), instead of talking about this here where we’re getting somewhat off topic.

Inre your linked image:
More
(http://mrclauslab.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/8/0/13802513/9824594_orig.jpg)

This is somewhat helpful, in particular how it stresses to avoid wrist flexion or extension, but the way the “right” image shows the forearms coming to the keyboard – parallel to each other ~8 inches apart, aligned with the keyboard rectangle – is physically impossible, and the negative slope is only relevant when the surface the keyboard is resting on is very low, not helpful in contexts where the typist doesn’t have control over the furniture. The pictures need at least a few paragraphs of explanation to give helpful advice IMO, or at least several more diagrams. The ideal is probably an explanatory video.

Quote
I'd stay the worst thing with qwerty is not the layout, it's the way you learn to touchtype on it...
The way touch typing is formally taught is mostly okay. For instance:
More
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvUxizk1x3c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVBoBJ-nNAo

The way people type in practice is often awful. Other logical keyboard layouts (not to mention other physical layouts) encourage much more comfortable typing technique.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Thu, 19 March 2015, 16:20:45
I feel like we’re arguing just for the sake of it, not really disagreeing.
I agree, we mostly share the same views and arguing over details, and it's indeed not the place for this kind of discussion (apologies to AcidFire and others). I'd be pleased to discuss this elsewhere with you later, but I'll stop derailing the thread further.

But just since you posted some medias, mostly the video (I love those videos from the mid XXth century, especially the science ones), I'll hide a comment below explaining the problem I have with those teachings...

More
I disagree with the most common (although not universal) finger placement/usage, such as depicted there:
(http://i.imgur.com/y5YCGj9.jpg)
I can't see how such a non-symmetric layout, with both hands going leftwards instead of inwards, can make sense...

This leads to many akward situations, such as this one:
(http://i.imgur.com/FSpadAS.jpg)
For me, such an angle for the wrist can't be any good when you care about wrist pain.

Overall, I don't think that placing the hands perpendicular to the keyboard can be a good idea for RSI and thus, I'm not sure that "QSDF" resting position for the fingers is the best idea. It was the only possible one for old typewriters because the rows were layered, but with flat keyboards, I think it's not the best idea. Granted, I try to make an ergonomic keyboard from an ISO one, which is a strange idea, but still...

That being said, I'm out, but thanks for the discussion...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 19 March 2015, 17:47:31
I'll hide a comment below explaining the problem I have with those teachings...
You should either make a new thread about this in the ergonomics subforum, or else do a search: there are several existing threads about this topic.
More
I personally use a fingering something along the lines of:
(http://i.imgur.com/oTgR4Kq.png)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: smferris on Thu, 19 March 2015, 23:25:34
Historically I've always liked having dedicated arrow keys.  I used to really like the 8-key navigation cluster on the TypeMatrix 2030, which was roughly:

PageUpHomeUpEnd
PageDownLeftDownRight
I'm not sure where I'd want to put that on an Axios.  It works better in a matrix array than it will on the Axios due to the finger staggering.  The new center 3x3 grids AcidFire posted about recently aren't staggered, so they'd be an option, but probably not a particularly good one since my goal would be to have three fingers hovering over the arrows and that's awkward when they're centrally located.  I may end up trying to convert myself to the layered home row approach.  The TextBlade I just ordered does that so perhaps I'll get used to it while waiting for the Axios to go into production.

Alternatively, the revamped casing for the thumb cluster (which I haven't posted yet) would allow it to sit externally so that might be an option as well (thinking about setting one up like this for myself).

Could a thumb cluster have a 4x2 or 4x3 grid?  I was assuming it'd max out at 3x3, which would make the layout much more awkward.  I found it really useful to have PageUp and PageDown stacked on top of each other just to the left of the left arrow, so that I could easily reach them with my index finger while keeping the rest of my hand at a home position over the arrows.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 25 March 2015, 16:00:46
I will agree 100%, do whatever you need to do to deal with your wrist pain, your health absolutely comes first.

As for a 4x2 or 4x3 cluster, 4x2 with 1u keys *might* be possible, but a 4x3 would require a larger housing. Originally there was space for this, however in order to keep the distance between the keys of the main cluster and the thumb to an absolute minimum, we went with a smaller housing to match the area available. This was part asthetics but mostly due to manfacturing & inventory management, a larger thumb cluster means there is a higher molding cost (for two unique cavities) since each side now has it's own MOQ. Plus, inventory management/space to keep track of the additional part since now they need to be tracked and verified seperately when building kits.. It may not seem like much, but with everything else that goes into this it adds up very quickly.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: smferris on Wed, 25 March 2015, 16:46:23

As for a 4x2 or 4x3 cluster, 4x2 with 1u keys *might* be possible, but a 4x3 would require a larger housing. Originally there was space for this, however in order to keep the distance between the keys of the main cluster and the thumb to an absolute minimum, we went with a smaller housing to match the area available. This was part asthetics but mostly due to manfacturing & inventory management, a larger thumb cluster means there is a higher molding cost (for two unique cavities) since each side now has it's own MOQ. Plus, inventory management/space to keep track of the additional part since now they need to be tracked and verified seperately when building kits.. It may not seem like much, but with everything else that goes into this it adds up very quickly.

4x2 1u is really what I'd be looking for in a navigation cluster.  I don't know what I'd do with the extra keys if it was 4x3.  I wasn't expecting it to even be able to handle 4x2 keys, so it's good to know it might be possible.  When do you think we'd know if 4x2 was workable or not?

Overall I think a smaller thumb cluster makes sense, at least for it's intended purpose.  Tacking a navigation cluster on elsewhere would be nice if possible, but at that point I'd be trying to reuse a part for something it wasn't designed for.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Wed, 25 March 2015, 18:21:04
I suppose I should have been clear/clarified, if you're looking for two rows of four, that won't fit without a larger thumb cluster. 4 rows x 2 columns, however is definitely doable.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jeep on Mon, 30 March 2015, 01:07:00
Any update on how long you think this will take? Also, has the multiplxd forum been pretty much abandoned for now?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: richardkemp on Wed, 08 April 2015, 14:56:42
I hate to be that guy, but I'd also love an eta. I need a second ergo board since I currently commute with my ergodox, and I'd much rather wait a little while for an axios than give in and get the ergodox update currently going on massdrop. That said, if eta is more like a year than a few months... compromise time. Can you give us an estimate acidfire?  :-*
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: rsadek on Wed, 08 April 2015, 15:20:55
I hate to be that guy, but I'd also love an eta. I need a second ergo board since I currently commute with my ergodox, and I'd much rather wait a little while for an axios than give in and get the ergodox update currently going on massdrop. That said, if eta is more like a year than a few months... compromise time. Can you give us an estimate acidfire?  :-*

I'm in a similar boat. My plan is to hedge: add 2nd Ergodox, then sell one once the axios comes. For a small cost this will avoid frustrations such as timeline slips,  damaging or losing Ergodox during commute, etc.
-R
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 08 April 2015, 18:15:20
That said, if eta is more like a year than a few months... compromise time.
As a general rule, if you need something in the near future, just buy something that already exists, instead of waiting on an unfinished version 1 hardware project (same story whether it’s a 3d printer, a blender, a chair, a shoe, whatever...). You can always resell whatever you get, when the new hardware finally arrives: the ergodox or kinesis advantage or whatever existing product is going to hold most of its value for at least a year or two.

It’s wonderful to support (via crowd funding or pre orders or design contributions ...) new hardware projects, but go into them with an expectation that the final ship date will always be at least 6 months later than you expect [or judging from the Kickstarters I’ve been involved in, often at least a year behind the intended schedule]. Then if a project meets its schedule goals you can be excited and happy, but you won’t feel as bad about delays. If you need and expect to get something in your hands by a particular date and you pre-order a product still in development, you’ll be really disappointed by every tiny schedule slip, and end up grumpy instead of excited about the new thing.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Wed, 08 April 2015, 21:47:03
As a general rule, if you need something in the near future, just buy something that already exists, instead of waiting on an unfinished version 1 hardware project (same story whether it’s a 3d printer, a blender, a chair, a shoe, whatever...). You can always resell whatever you get, when the new hardware finally arrives: the ergodox or kinesis advantage or whatever existing product is going to hold most of its value for at least a year or two.

I think you are definitely correct about ths, but just a comment, the Infinity Ergodox sounds like it's a bit of a work in progress as well. They're still investigating whether stabilizers will be included in the drop, there are no photos of the lcd working, also it doesn't sound to me like the backlighting will have fw support in the first instance.

I do think that the basics will work when it ships though... I should think that though, I bought one!!

They did say in the description that NKRO and the lcd would work though.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 08 April 2015, 22:26:14
I think you are definitely correct about ths, but just a comment, the Infinity Ergodox sounds like it's a bit of a work in progress as well.
Yep. Ergodoxes in general take at least a few months between order and ship date. If you need something within the next month or two, buy a retail product, or build it yourself.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: dsmitify on Thu, 09 April 2015, 01:45:59
I did the same as clickclack123. Ordered an Infinity Ergodox while waiting for the Axios :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: richardkemp on Thu, 09 April 2015, 04:07:38
All great points. And I'm well aware how hard it can be to provide even a wildly inaccurate ETA. Just curious how far along acidfire feels he is. I am, as suggested, strongly leaning towards the dox infinity for the short term.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Niomosy on Thu, 09 April 2015, 18:11:31
My wallet and I aren't in a tremendous rush so I'll just wait and see what pans.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: yumea on Sat, 11 April 2015, 17:35:54
i am a little concerned with the eta, too.
i would get me another keyboard to bridge the time until the delivery of the axios.
there is an ergodox that will be delivered assembled (because i do not want to try soldering on an expensive kit): https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ergodox-ez-an-incredible-mechanical-keyboard/x/10491336
however, the estimated date of delivery is in december.
so, the 220$ question is whether the eta of axios will be considerably later than december.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Faokryn on Mon, 13 April 2015, 10:40:05
I believe this is the latest timeframe we have from AcidFire:

That would mean first quarter 2015 for funding, with a production time no longer than 6 months (barring major supply obstacles). Keeping basically all the production local will let us keep a much tighter set of reigns on the timeline.

Though Q1 crowd funding has already slipped a couple weeks...

Also, has the multiplxd forum been pretty much abandoned for now?

I'd also be interested in revitalizing the Multiplxd forum.  I have some questions about the hardware, and I don't want to get this thread too off topic with my personal inquiries, since I'm sure there are people who follow it mostly for updates from AcidFire.  On the other hand, I currently feel that posting on the Multiplxd forum would be like shouting into an empty room...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: the aether on Thu, 16 April 2015, 18:50:39
I've been lurking this thread since 2013, just wanted to stop by to say keep up the good work and I can't wait to join the Kickstarter/Indiegogo for this :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Zisilius on Wed, 22 April 2015, 15:12:35
I love this keyboard so much, I just can't wait for it to come out. I just cancelled the order for infinity ErgoDox since I though it's a waste of money if I'm not getting the Axios. I hope it will come out really soon, I have been waiting for it for more than a year haha. You have been doing excellent work Acidfire, thank you for everything you do and stand for in the community. Get well.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Wed, 22 April 2015, 18:29:21
I just cancelled the order for infinity ErgoDox since I though it's a waste of money if I'm not getting the Axios.

I think you'd probably be able to sell your Infinity Ergodox for more than you bought it for once the Axios came out, if you really needed to.

I'm buying both... :-)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Zisilius on Fri, 24 April 2015, 12:40:18
I just cancelled the order for infinity ErgoDox since I though it's a waste of money if I'm not getting the Axios.

I think you'd probably be able to sell your Infinity Ergodox for more than you bought it for once the Axios came out, if you really needed to.

I'm buying both... :-)

I'm glad you are. Now you made me regret passing it by. Maybe I can still contact them and get an order in. The shipping date isn't until June 29. So I think I might still be okay. Thanks though.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: yumea on Sat, 25 April 2015, 01:50:13
acidfire!

no harm meant, but it is quite remarkable and frustrating that the frequency of your dedication to this forum has decreased vastly - from several times each day in the beginning to barely once a month now.
additionally there is no real perspective for a completion of your project, which is attended to and caused by the absence of news by you.
so, at least for me, my initial enthusiasm has transformed into a hopeless waiting. is your project dead?

i hope you have not given up!! please share your progress with us more (much more) frequently!
your idea is awesome!!

if you have lost your interest in this project, please do us a last favor by sharing everything about your project you have so that someone else can continue this project.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: conandy on Sun, 26 April 2015, 01:43:05
I'll second Yumea. I was really excited when this was supposedly going to hit Crowd Source over a year ago.  Now I just hope for a tidbit of news now and then, and have stopped being so excited any more.   Have bypassed many ergodox drops waiting for this.  I wonder now if letting the Infinity Ergodox pass by was a mistake.

Please let us know how things are going, what your current expectations are for schedule (realistic, not optimistic), etc.

As has been said before, don't let yourself suffer paralysis by analysis.  You have quite a following here of people who will buy this keyboard, regardless of whether it is "perfect", or just nearly so. 



Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Zustiur on Mon, 27 April 2015, 07:09:06
Add me to the list of people waiting for this board who didn't order an infinity (though in my case, it was more through inattentiveness than actual choice).
I don't want AcidFire to feel like he's being pressured by the community as that sort of pressure can quickly turn into stress. I'll continue to wait patiently. Hopefully he sees these posts as encouragement :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: TomBodet on Mon, 27 April 2015, 19:59:00
Add me to the list of people waiting for this board who didn't order an infinity (though in my case, it was more through inattentiveness than actual choice).

Heck I got in on the Dox Infinity and I'm still dying to see what this project comes up with.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: alexofthewest on Mon, 27 April 2015, 20:29:22
beautiful keyboard! and +1 for the enders game book next to it (one of the best books ever written).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: markdavisxxx on Fri, 08 May 2015, 08:32:59
Just found this topic as I'm looking to ergo my work-from-home setup.  I've been doing a ton of research lately, and this looks like the best keyboard in the works that I could find.  Keep up the awesome work AcidFire!  :thumb:
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: richardkemp on Fri, 22 May 2015, 14:41:14
So I bough a Kinesis Advantage Pro while waiting for this. I don't like it. Compared to an ErgoDox which I already own, the lack of *full* reprogrammability is frustrating. I want to map the esc key, but I can't. Looking forward to the release of this AcidFire. Take my money!!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: vvp on Fri, 22 May 2015, 16:50:29
So I bough a Kinesis Advantage Pro while waiting for this. I don't like it. Compared to an ErgoDox which I already own, the lack of *full* reprogrammability is frustrating. I want to map the esc key, but I can't. Looking forward to the release of this AcidFire. Take my money!!
If you can do a bit of electronics then there is one more option: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56923.0
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Fri, 22 May 2015, 17:04:33
Each time I see this thread bumped, I rush here hoping for news... just to see someone else eager to see this project coming to fruition.

My money is waiting, too, but at this moment, I just hope everything is all right with AcidFire and his family, because two months without news feel like a long time.


I'm thinking about ordering a 'dox EZ, a bit expensive for temporary solution, but at least it's a tentable dox to fill the gap.


So I bough a Kinesis Advantage Pro while waiting for this. I don't like it. Compared to an ErgoDox which I already own, the lack of *full* reprogrammability is frustrating. I want to map the esc key, but I can't.
I'm really thinking that we shoud design a USB pass-through to add reprogrammability to devices that don't have it... I wanted to try it, at least as a proof-of-concept, using a leonardo and an USB host shield, but haven't found the time to do so (beside, I don't really have a use for this myself, and the limited speed/memory of the Arduino don't allow a lot of interesting tricks, so I never really tried)

I guess you're on Windows?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: njbair on Fri, 22 May 2015, 17:08:37
Each time I see this thread bumped, I rush here hoping for news... just to see someone else eager to see this project coming to fruition.

My money is waiting, too, but at this moment, I just hope everything is all right with AcidFire and his family, because two months without news feel like a long time.


I'm thinking about ordering a 'dox EZ, a bit expensive for temporary solution, but at least it's a tentable dox to fill the gap.


So I bough a Kinesis Advantage Pro while waiting for this. I don't like it. Compared to an ErgoDox which I already own, the lack of *full* reprogrammability is frustrating. I want to map the esc key, but I can't.
I'm really thinking that we shoud design a USB pass-through to add reprogrammability to devices that don't have it... I wanted to try it, at least as a proof-of-concept, using a leonardo and an USB host shield, but haven't found the time to do so (beside, I don't really have a use for this myself, and the limited speed/memory of the Arduino don't allow a lot of interesting tricks, so I never really tried)

I guess you're on Windows?
Hasu is working on a USB pass through device using an AVR and some other hardware. I'm on mobile so I can't link it but search the forum for "USB to USB converter."
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Fri, 22 May 2015, 17:27:09
Hasu is working on a USB pass through device using an AVR and some other hardware. I'm on mobile so I can't link it but search the forum for "USB to USB converter."
Nice... I hadn't seen this project somehow. Will look for it, out of curiosity... thanks!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Faokryn on Wed, 27 May 2015, 09:24:05
Desire for an Axios update aside, I'm a bit worried about AcidFire.  Last time he went this long without posting something was after the car accident.  I hope he's okay :\
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: yumea on Thu, 28 May 2015, 01:59:59
guys!

acidfire has fooled and ass-kicked us!

he appears to be very fine, on facebook his last post is just from 5 days ago!

i bet he simply does not give a damn any more on this project we all set our hearts on!

no sentimental care necessary

[attachimg=2] (i removed the screenshot)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Thu, 28 May 2015, 03:09:15
guys!

acidfire has fooled and ass-kicked us!

he appears to be very fine, on facebook his last post is just from 5 days ago!

i bet he simply does not give a damn any more on this project we all set our hearts on!
I'm sure he does. But he has a life, a family, and he works for free. Granted, many people here are really eager to try his keyboard, but we can't ask him to spend his nights on this project just because time feels long.

If he's fine (although you probably won't discuss all your problems on Facebook or here), that's good news. And I'm sure updates will come sooner or later ^_^

Btw, I'm not sure that posting Facebook screenshots with real names and co is the best idea, but maybe I'm a bit paranoïd ^_^
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Faokryn on Fri, 29 May 2015, 09:20:30
he appears to be very fine, on facebook his last post is just from 5 days ago!

I'm very relieved to hear :]

I'm sure he does. But he has a life, a family, and he works for free. Granted, many people here are really eager to try his keyboard, but we can't ask him to spend his nights on this project just because time feels long.

I agree.  I don't think we need to worry about the project dying.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: meirish on Sat, 20 June 2015, 20:28:24
If you don't follow along on twitter - there's some exciting news:

https://twitter.com/Multiplxd/status/612371130695860224

Also: congrats on getting married AcidFire!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: berserkfan on Sat, 20 June 2015, 21:53:34
guys!

acidfire has fooled and ass-kicked us!

he appears to be very fine, on facebook his last post is just from 5 days ago!

i bet he simply does not give a damn any more on this project we all set our hearts on!

no sentimental care necessary

(Attachment Link) (i removed the screenshot)

You may have set your heart on this project, but you have at present 11 posts and no contribution to Acidfire.

Some people simply do not appreciate how much time and effort the makers need in order to complete their projects.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jamadagni on Sat, 20 June 2015, 22:51:59
AcidFire says (https://twitter.com/Multiplxd/status/612370731310018560) he "was just a little preoccupied with getting married" and "progress is still very much being made". Congratulations to AcidFire and his bride! Nice to hear on the project side too.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jamadagni on Sat, 20 June 2015, 23:13:54
One of the main reason I joined this forum was this project. I just finished reading all 56 pages (which seem to suddenly have changed to 34, not sure why) over the past few days, and have saved a lot of the images just for at least window shopping for now! ;-)

Now as someone else said, I'm wondering whether I should wait for this or go for ErgoDox EZ which is to come out in December. This one is much more feature-packed for probably a similar price tag (based on the estimates AcidFire posted a few pages ago). So if this one comes out, I would be really curious to know who would buy the EZ and why (while Erez of that project has been very kind and helpful to my email queries) As for KeyboardIO, though I like the colour LED feature, I don't exactly dig the fancy butterfly shape -- not sure how many would either. Also, the outer keys especially of each side do not seem replaceable by other caps for whatever reason. Now if it were a regular rectangular shape, it might appeal to those who agree with me, but I digress...

Now that we know the reason for AcidFire's recent silence on this score, I'm eagerly looking forward to when he'll get some time [after the due wedding celebration period of course! ;-)] to post updates.

Now there is one actual design detail I want to chime in on: he said (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg1607676#msg1607676) he would be removing the three 1u keys on the thumb clusters, and also the function keys (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg1636990#msg1636990) which are then both combined into a cluster in the center (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg1657285#msg1657285). However this is ignoring the Esc key on the far top left and the Ins (or at least in my head I labeled it that) key on the far top right both of which are shown in bright blue in the CrowdSupply page (https://www.crowdsupply.com/multiplxd/axios-keyboard) (which is still showing the model before these changes).

Since AcidFire is very nice about getting even negative feedback if constructive, I'd like to say this: The keys from the thumb cluster did not have any fixed functions brought over from the regular keyboards, and it was going to be up to users (or AcidFire for the default firmware) to assign some function to it. So repositioning them is not that big a deal. (Frankly I myself was somewhat wondering about the overcrowded thumb cluster.)

However, the Esc, Ins and F keys have already known functions and people are used to their relative positions (whether or not they are placed in fours, or sixes or whatever). So especially considering that one of the intentions of providing dedicated F keys is to make it convenient for those who are used to it, I think they should still be retained along the top (as a modular option of course) and not reordered into clusters which would totally make it inconvenient IMO and defeat their very purpose. Re keeping them along the top, I don't think they are used so often that reaching for them is a big issue, especially since the design has them somewhat titled towards the fingers so it's not all that much of a reach. Those who don't like to reach even that much can always use one of the extra keys as an Fn modifier with a model that doesn't have the dedicated keys (thanks to the modularity).

Finally, I'd like to hear more about the hall effect sensor (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg1540712#msg1540712) too. However, now that the thumb cluster has been reduced to 4x1.5u keys, I feel that any such pointing device should not replace any more of the remaining 4 keys but be placed instead of one of the removed keys. I'm not sure we'll need 5 LEDs on either side (though usages can always be found by innovative people) so lesser LEDs should be fine.

BTW how would such a pointing device, even if clickable, be used to distinguish left-click and right-click (and middle-click for those that use it)?!!

Finally, thanks and congratulations to AcidFire and I hope he really is able to get the time to take this to completion reasonably soon!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Faokryn on Sun, 21 June 2015, 00:13:55
Exciting news!  Congratulations AcidFire!

I just finished reading all 56 pages (which seem to suddenly have changed to 34, not sure why)

Huh, the page count did go down.  Weird :\
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: yumea on Sun, 21 June 2015, 01:26:12
You may have set your heart on this project, but you have at present 11 posts and no contribution to Acidfire.

Some people simply do not appreciate how much time and effort the makers need in order to complete their projects.


so, why had you not said that before? you come up with your accusations only AFTER, and right within an hour since, this news about acidfire's condition has been posted.
that you accuse me now is quite - flimsy. you were not convinced about it. if you stood by your accusation, you had showed some guts by conveying it when you were with the same level of information like me BEFORE this news - but you have failed. second-guessing is quite funny and lame  ;D i spoke out what appeared to quite a few of us - even to you i think  ;)

about your statistical analysis and your "no contribution" and "not appreciate how much time and effort" :)) : so you can count, but your reading comprehension has much potential to improve.


independently from your accusations, with this news information i can happily revise my impression about acidfire's motivation. and, read carefully and keep in mind, berserkfan, as said many times before, i appreciate this project.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: yumea on Sun, 21 June 2015, 01:28:04
this news about acidfire is quite awesome.

congratulations from me too!

it is relieving and revives my confidence that everything in life and project of acidfire works fine.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jacobolus on Sun, 21 June 2015, 01:35:11
One of the main reason I joined this forum was this project. I just finished reading all 56 pages (which seem to suddenly have changed to 34, not sure why) over the past few days, and have saved a lot of the images just for at least window shopping for now! ;-)
If you are logged into geekhack, you can decide how many posts you want to see per page. https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;area=theme
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jamadagni on Sun, 21 June 2015, 01:49:07
If you are logged into geekhack, you can decide how many posts you want to see per page. https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;area=theme
Yes I know, but the point is, I was logged in even when there were 50+ pages, and I'm logged in even now. My setting for "posts per page" is set to "Forum default" so possibly somebody changed that recently.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Sun, 21 June 2015, 02:43:36
AcidFire says (https://twitter.com/Multiplxd/status/612370731310018560) he "was just a little preoccupied with getting married" and "progress is still very much being made". Congratulations to AcidFire and his bride! Nice to hear on the project side too.
Oh, nice... Congratulations, and a lot of happyness!

Now as someone else said, I'm wondering whether I should wait for this or go for ErgoDox EZ which is to come out in December. This one is much more feature-packed for probably a similar price tag (based on the estimates AcidFire posted a few pages ago). So if this one comes out, I would be really curious to know who would buy the EZ and why
I do, partly as a gap-filler because I felt AcidFire keyboard would be late, partly because I think having two keyboards will probably be handy, partly because I think AcidFire's keyboard won't take the same kind of beating with moving parts, partly because I want to design a firmware, and being able to test it on Ergodox could be useful.

As for KeyboardIO, though I like the colour LED feature, I don't exactly dig the fancy butterfly shape -- not sure how many would either.
Not overly fond of the shape, but I'm not bothered by it either. But there's definitively not enough keys on this one. I'm curious about the palm button too.

Besides, the non-standard keycaps make impossible to get a set of labeled keycaps with your own layout, and if they offer a blank set, I'm not sure the backlight will work well.

I'm already worried by the fact that I can't order a custom set for Ergodox EZ for a reasonable amount of money :/

Now there is one actual design detail I want to chime in on: he said (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg1607676#msg1607676) he would be removing the three 1u keys on the thumb clusters, and also the function keys (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg1636990#msg1636990)
The current design have three function keys on each side, if I'm not mistaken?

However, now that the thumb cluster has been reduced to 4x1.5u keys
4x1.5u? Isn't it 6x1.5u ?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jamadagni on Sun, 21 June 2015, 07:25:38
Now there is one actual design detail I want to chime in on: he said (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg1607676#msg1607676) he would be removing the three 1u keys on the thumb clusters, and also the function keys (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg1636990#msg1636990)
The current design have three function keys on each side, if I'm not mistaken?
Nope, compare the plate:
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-96.jpg)
... from here (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg1657285#msg1657285) and here (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg1685034#msg1685034) to the earlier design:
(https://www.crowdsupply.com/img/8799/axios-cover-updated_jpg_project-main.jpg)
...still visible on the CrowdSupply site (https://www.crowdsupply.com/multiplxd/axios-keyboard).

Note that the 3 dropped keys from 2 thumb clusters (for a total of 6 keys) and the 12 F keys are moved to the center, and further the Esc and Ins keys (blue in the top left and right corners of the CrowdSupply image) are lost.

... Wait a minute! The navigation cluster is also missing! And suddenly it appears that maybe the F keys aren't really lost! Comparing the plates with the image for the left half alone (since the right half is a mirror image), I note that the far top left key (Esc) and the navigation cluster are missing, but apart from that, I count, starting from the innermost column outwards (on either side) the following number of keys per column: 4, 5, 6, and then four 5s — so it seems now the F keys are merged with the alphanumers rows rather than standing alone? Really confused here.

Anyhow I sincerely request AcidFire to restore the Esc and Ins keys and most importantly the navigation keys even if he is going to join the Fn buttons to the alphanumeric rows. I note however that others were saying they prefer to reduce the number of keys and so the earlier idea was to have the Esc + F_ + Ins row as an addable inward tiltable module for those who want it — has that idea been scrapped now? Re further additional keys being provided between the two halves, I have no objection but maybe that can be an add-on but not for the F_ keys please — I strongly request that the F_ keys be a single line on top...

Quote
However, now that the thumb cluster has been reduced to 4x1.5u keys
4x1.5u? Isn't it 6x1.5u ?

Oh yes my apologies. I had forgotten that it was 3x3 keys to begin with and now reduced to 3x2.

I would have thought this far into the development the key layout would have been finalized... I hope to hear from AcidFire on this soon!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Sun, 21 June 2015, 07:42:50
Nope, compare the plate:
You actually confirm my point: there's, on the current plate, 3 additional keys on each side than on the original prototype, beside the 9-keys cluster. Look for example at the inner column, which is 4 keys high now, and was 3 keys high in the prototype (or on any Ergodox).

AcidFire added those when he found that the USB (?) connector needed some space on the top with the new enclosure, so there was room for three buttons.

I note that the far top left key (Esc) and the navigation cluster are missing, but apart from that, I count, starting from the innermost column outwards (on either side) the following number of keys per column: 4, 5, 6, and then four 5s — so it seems now the F keys are merged with the alphanumers rows rather than standing alone?
Exactly. Not that you don't need to use those as F-keys, but at least, you have a couple of accessible keys.

I'm thinking about using the three new keys on the top and the three keys replacing the navigation cluster as F-keys.

... Wait a minute! The navigation cluster is also missing!
You've read the 50+ pages too quickly ^_^

It indeed has been replaced back by 3 keys (like on Ergodox). There was some discussion about that at the beginning of the year. There may be different layouts in the future to suit each needs (and in fact, the navigation cluster was a change introduced in june 2014, it wasn't in the early part of the project).

Anyhow I sincerely request AcidFire to restore the Esc and Ins keys
I think there's an issue with how the PCB is populated that prevent adding a key on the top left part of the left half-keyboard (and same on the right one) that may make that addition difficult. I'd welcome a key, though (although I've put ESC on a easier-to-kit key myself)
 
and most importantly the navigation keys
I don't think this will change for the third time for the first campaign, but it may be one of the first alternative layouts if I understood correctly what AcidFire wanted to do.

I would have thought this far into the development the key layout would have been finalized...
I think that the white acrylic plate you posted is the (tentative?) final layout for the first campaign.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: berserkfan on Sun, 21 June 2015, 08:44:49
I am very disappointed in the latest design and hope that acidfire will change his mind soon.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jamadagni on Tue, 23 June 2015, 09:05:45
Nope, compare the plate:
You actually confirm my point: there's, on the current plate, 3 additional keys on each side than on the original prototype, beside the 9-keys cluster. Look for example at the inner column, which is 4 keys high now, and was 3 keys high in the prototype (or on any Ergodox).
I don't see where there are any addition 3 keys. I don't know what versions you are comparing but as I said in my earlier post I am comparing the version seen on the CrowdSupply site ("CS version")
[attachimg=1]
vs the latest plate AcidFire posted (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg1657285#msg1657285) ("latest version")
[attachimg=2]
I have numbered these for convenience. Of the first 34 keys, the first 7 (Esc + F1..6 in my mind) are in a straight line in the CS version but joined with the contoured main keys in the recent version. The 40th key in the CS version seems to be at the same position as the 35th and last key in the recent version, which means 5 keys i.e. #35..39 from the CS version are lost. Also, looking at the thumb cluster clearly 3 keys are lost, which means 8 lost keys. I don't know what you mean by 3 keys being added to the main board.

Quote from: Koren
You've read the 50+ pages too quickly ^_^

LOL, but I don't think so, I actually did it over four days amidst other work/pressures.

The plates from Jan 26 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg1611404#msg1611404) still correspond to the CS version just minus the separate straight Esc+F row. The next image he posted was on Feb 25 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg1657285#msg1657285) which is the same as the "current version". I don't see any explanation in between for removing the navigation cluster. If you see such a post, please link it directly.

Anyhow I sincerely request AcidFire to restore the Esc and Ins keys
I think there's an issue with how the PCB is populated that prevent adding a key on the top left part of the left half-keyboard (and same on the right one) that may make that addition difficult. I'd welcome a key, though (although I've put ESC on a easier-to-kit key myself)[/quote]
Hmm I may have spoken a bit fast -- the top left key in the current version still can be used as Esc. Once we get RGB lighting who cares about keycap colours! ;-) Gimme! :-)
 
Quote from: Koren
and most importantly the navigation keys
I don't think this will change for the third time for the first campaign, but it may be one of the first alternative layouts if I understood correctly what AcidFire wanted to do.

Hm, if I really can figure out where to put in the navigation keys, I may not worry so much. I don't insist on a T or diamond style cluster. Koren, can you please post a tentative key mapping for the current version? (IIUC you have been working on one since you were grrr-ing AcidFire for keeping changing the layout!)

There's a mapping by yumea here (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg1380137#msg1380137) but it's for the CS version minus the Esc+F row.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
Post by: jamadagni on Tue, 23 June 2015, 09:10:50
i guess all of you want to program the keyboard so that keystrokes (single and combined ones like ctrl+alt+something) fire directly unicode codes instead of scancodes (scancodes would throw us back to handling a qwerty keyboard and would lead to complicated difficulties in programming macros for them like i had with autohotkey).
snip
Is it even possible? (without designing a specific driver for the keyboard, I mean, and even with this, it'll probably fail with some programs directly reading the keyboard state). The idea that the keyboard would send unicodes is great on paper, but I don't think the people who designed the keyboard protocol allowed anything like this, unfortunately (in fact, if you're looking at xkb on Linux, for example, it's an awfully complicated system).
snip
(BTW, translating key presses in Hepburn sequences before sending them to the PC works well, I tried it with a Leonardo and a couple of microswitchs... Now, I REALLY hope there's a lot of memory in the keyboard, because I intend to put a lot of things inside ^_^ )
after sharing your constructive considerations on my post and your hint on the keyboard protocol, koren, i tried to get into this matter and also to get a deeper insight into the ergodox firmware files.
but it began to dawn on me that such modifier routines do not work the way i tried to set up in my previous post.
letting the keyboard send scan codes is the simplest way and seems to be done in every firmware i have found so far. but will we really have to deal with just rearranging virtual qwerty keyboard keys?
that is quite stoneage.
in contrast to the conception that only scancodes are possible, i have found a corrective statement in wikipedia:
in the article about keyboard layouts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout) just in the introduction in the 8th line it is written
"Most computer keyboards are designed to send scancodes to the operating system, rather than directly sending characters."
hereof i deduce that also some computer keyboards are designed to directly send characters. so, unicode sending keyboard firmware seems to be possible.

The USB HID spec (http://www.usb.org/developers/hidpage/Hut1_12v2.pdf) page 108 says:
Quote
17 Unicode Page (0x10)
The Unicode Page directly maps to the two-octet form defined in the Unicode Standard.
The Unicode Standard, Version 1.1, is the newest version of the UnicodeTM Standard. Unicode 1.1 includes
the changes and additions that were made to Unicode 1.0 in the process of alignment with the international
character encoding standard, ISO/IEC 10646-1, which was approved by ISO/IEC as an International
Standard in June 1992, and published in May 1993. The character content and encoding of Unicode 1.1 is
thus identical to that of the ISO/IEC 10646-1 UCS-2 (the two-octet form).
(Italics mine, LOL. Seriously, that document is dated 2004-10-28!)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Faokryn on Tue, 23 June 2015, 10:26:57
I am very disappointed in the latest design and hope that acidfire will change his mind soon.

I'll have to disagree with you there, Berserk; I'm really liking the design at this point!  But I think a single design will never satisfy everyone, and AcidFire just needs to make his perfect keyboard, and the rest of us will need to wait for later versions or modify ourselves once things are open source (that being said I hope the Multiplxd forum becomes more active once the product is released, as a place for owners to share mods / extensions with each other)


Jamadagni,

There was discussion about nav clusters on what is currently pages 32 and 33, with AcidFire confirming he would be dropping the cluster for the first run near the top of the latter:

I've been reading and trying a few things quietly, and I think for the initial layout we'll be going with a bit more of a normal bottom row. For those of you wanting a more traditional arrow cluster, it's marked down as the first layout option to be released after the initial product run is done.

When Koren is talking about "additional keys", they are talking about on the main module.  In your labeled image of the CrowdSupply design, the keys labeled 1-7 are a separate module (that's how they can be tilted).  These haven't been "dropped" but have been replaced by a 3x3 cluster (the plates in the center of the current design).  The three keys labeled 5, 6, and 7 on your image of the current plate have been "added" to the main module since the CrowdSupply design.  Three of the four keys from the nav cluster have been moved to follow the contour of the rest of the main cluster, so if you're just going by numbers, two keys have been added to the main module.  To be fair, if you're going to count the top row of the CrowdSupply design, you need to count the 3x3 module of the current design, so the current design has 44 keys.  If you count the thumb modules on each, the current design still wins the numbers game at 50 keys per hand to 49.  I understand the different placements means these keys aren't exactly equivalent, but since you seem concerned about losing keys, I hope this puts your mind (at least partially) at ease. :)

As for a layout, here's a color coded possibility (minus thumb and function clusters):

[attach=1]

The navy keys are the home keys, the cerulean are alphanumerics (whatever layout you prefer), the cyan are symbol keys, and the white are modifiers/macros/whatever you want.  Note that I divided the number keys evenly between the hands and moved the top row symbols to the center; you could leave them to the right if you prefer.  (Well, you can do whatever you want if you prefer, that's the beauty of this kind of keyboard. ;) )  I also moved the symbols that occupy the right of a standard layout to the center.  I left one 1.5u key as a symbol because I use both the tilde and the backslash semi-regularly, but if you can afford to lose a symbol key you can use that as a modifier/macro as well.

My current plan for navigation is to have a thumb switch map the arrows to what would be J, K, L, and I on a QWERTY layout.  I plan to do something similar for F_ with 1-6 and Q-Y (again on a standard QWERTY layout).  I hope that gives you some ideas :D
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jamadagni on Tue, 23 June 2015, 11:21:38
@Faokryn: Thanks for your most clarifying reply. I agree with your points, just that the different layout of the F keys would take some getting used to.

Note that rather than mapping the bottom 6 of both central clusters to F1-6 and F7-12 (I mean, that's sorta awkward at least for me!) another possibility for the F keys is to map the top 3 white keys on the main boards on either side plus the top 3 on the two central clusters, for an almost contiguous F row...

BTW if you have an SVG for the blue colour-coded layout you just posted can you please share it here? Would save me some work!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Faokryn on Tue, 23 June 2015, 11:39:10
BTW if you have an SVG for the blue colour-coded layout you just posted can you please share it here? Would save me some work!

I'll do you one better. Here's the link to the keyboard-layout-editor.com page: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/57a8c465f0eb8811eacef5057b051afc (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/57a8c465f0eb8811eacef5057b051afc)

I used to have one with the thumb clusters but I seem to have lost the link :\
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Tue, 23 June 2015, 17:03:37
Koren, can you please post a tentative key mapping for the current version? (IIUC you have been working on one since you were grrr-ing AcidFire for keeping changing the layout!)
Should there be any doubt, I wasn't actually really angry about the changes... ;)

I'm eager to test it, though...

I can post my key mapping (as soon as my computer is working again, my HDD died a couple days ago, and I've had troubles with the OS installation afterwards... and since I'm very busy, it's still an awful mess)...

That being said, it probably won't be helpful...

If there's an arrow cluster on the bottom part of the keyboard, I'll use it, but I've the arrow keys on the alt-gr layer (on qwerty layout, it would be page up/down on Y/H left on J, down on K, right on L, up on I, home on U and end on ; if I'm not mistaken). And the functions keys on the left hand of the numpad layer.

I'll probably put my most used functions keys on the three lower keys replacing the arrow clusters (F2/3/4 on left hand, 5/7/? or right one) and probably a couple more on the 2x3 upper keys that are not on a usual Ergodox.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Niomosy on Fri, 03 July 2015, 02:18:41
I'm curious to see what the changes do to a finished layout.  I'm still iffy on the location of the function keys as I did enjoy them in their typical location above the number keys but at least they're still around.  Perhaps the new layout will grow on me. 
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jamadagni on Sat, 11 July 2015, 08:21:23
Hello. Can I have an idea of the overall footprint and the max height of the current design, which IIAN mistaken is the final one? I am ordering a custom-made computing desk including a retractable tray for the keyboard and want to be sure that the tray will be able to hold the Axios.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jamadagni on Mon, 13 July 2015, 13:38:12
I am now wondering whether the Axios has addressed this problem with the ErgoDox thumb clusters (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=58673) ("TCs") because the Axios has also used 1u-wide for the TCs just like the ErgoDox. I know the Axios has a separate PCB for the TCs and it's angled down so that the thumb can move inwards which may address the issue of hitting Space, but still how about accessibility of the 4 keys other than those two closest to the main (alpha etc) board?

I am asking because I was planning key layouts for my "future purchase" of the Axios. I was thinking of putting all my modifiers on the thumb clusters (which is apparently something others agree with (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62848.msg1472411#msg1472411)) and symmetric on both hands.

With the ErgoDox since it's all flat, the wrist can turn in a bit and with the help of non-thumb fingers we can execute combinations involving Ctrl, Alt, Shift and Meta on one hand with the other hand hitting the requisite final key. But with the Axios, since the TCs are facing down, the non-thumb fingers would be hard put to access the keys in them (I mean we would have to totally rotate the wrists inwards which is uncomfortable to say the least).

So what are we supposed to do with those other thumb cluster keys and where are we supposed to put the modifiers? Again on the weak little fingers like on regular non-ergo keyboards? I don't think that's right...

Jacobolus has (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62848) gathered detailed feedback about the TC issue and put up multiple diagrams in an effort to solve the problem. These should definitely be taken into consideration IMO but of course the matter of the downward tilt has to be factored in...

If this issue is not addressed, I'm not so sure that the Axios is the answer to my keyboarding requirements anymore! :-(
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Tue, 14 July 2015, 12:06:24
I am now wondering whether the Axios has addressed this problem with the ErgoDox thumb clusters (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=58673) ("TCs") because the Axios has also used 1u-wide for the TCs just like the ErgoDox. I know the Axios has a separate PCB for the TCs and it's angled down so that the thumb can move inwards which may address the issue of hitting Space, but still how about accessibility of the 4 keys other than those two closest to the main (alpha etc) board?
I'm not sure it's easy to answer this, as people can have different resting positions and hand sizes... I fear only testing would allow you to decide.

Though, besides the angle, I'm pretty sure that the thumb keys are slightly closer than on an Ergodox.

I was thinking of putting all my modifiers on the thumb clusters (which is apparently something others agree with (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62848.msg1472411#msg1472411)) and symmetric on both hands.
I don't think even a general agreement should drive your decisions about the layout, especially if you feel pain using a board that many find comfortable... I'm not even sure I would use modifiers on the thumb clusters in your case.

You can use the Axios flat if you think it's better, too.

So what are we supposed to do with those other thumb cluster keys and where are we supposed to put the modifiers? Again on the weak little fingers like on regular non-ergo keyboards? I don't think that's right...
I'm not sure it's a big issue, especially if you don't put the modifiers on places far from the pinkies resting position. The issue with Ctrl, for example, is that it's about 2 columns left/right and 2 rows down from the resting position. If you use Ctrl a lot, you could even put it on the home row or really close to it.

You could also define modifiers as "dead" keys (think Ctrl then C instead of Ctrl+C)

Jacobolus has (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62848) gathered detailed feedback about the TC issue and put up multiple diagrams in an effort to solve the problem.
I also find that the TC on Ergodox is too far away, and it's one of the reasons I want to tweak the Ergo PCB (simply by reducing the lower 1.5u middle key to a 1u one, you can move the TC closer to the hand). Another reason is that I'd like to be able to use a standard ISO set of keys... I may use levers instead of keys for some TC keys.

I expect the Axios to be better, but I'm eager to test it because I think it'll be the only way to be sure.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: davkol on Tue, 14 July 2015, 12:55:23
I guess the primary concerns are, if AcidFire's fine and if *anyone* will *ever* get the Axios, regardless of exact layout. The funding was supposed to start *last* summer after all, according to some AF's posts in this thread.

I don't think ErgoDox thumb clusters are particularly bad anymore; most people are just using them incorrectly. Just replace each 2x key by two 1x keys with aggressively sculpted keycaps, and hover your hands. That's not to say they're perfect. They aren't.

I'm currently using 8 thumb keys on each side, and most of that are modifiers. It takes effort to move and curl the thumb from the outer bottom keys to the key below X/dot, thus I'd really appreciate at least an extra key below B/N, but it's hard to get it any better. I mean, I probably won't get the keyboard.io Model 01, because it doesn't have enough thumb keys . (Oh well, I'll actually get it anyway, because wallethack.)

My other issue with keyboard.io, ErgoDox etc. is the flat plane, and this is where Axios should be an improvement. It's like the difference between Microsoft Trackball Optical and basically every other trackball.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jamadagni on Wed, 22 July 2015, 06:19:21
@davkol: As I posted earlier from AcidFire's Twitter account that he has recently got married, he's probably busy with that, so I'm not worried whether he is fine, but I agree on the time frame issue and just the uncertainty regarding the time factor is making me lean more and more towards joining the ErgoDox EZ buy. Of course, I have till December to decide...

Aside from that, @koren: thanks for your comments re the TC. IIUC you say "we'll only know whether the Axios's TC is good if we try it out" but ~250 USD which is about the current estimate isn't a small amount for everyone, especially when it has to convert into other currencies (such as my INR). If at least we could have a to-scale PDF which we could print out on a card and bend down the TC we could "try it out" to some extent at least. It'd be nice if someone could provide that. (I'm not personally sure enough of the relative sizes to do one myself.)

Personally, and continuing to theorize until we have such a PDF to try something out practically, I think that while it's true that the thumb's natural movement is almost perpendicular (in 3D) to that of the other fingers, with the common keyboards we hit the space with the side of the thumb, and this can translate to the Bksp, Enter etc a la Kinesis/ErgoDox too, so 3D is not really necessary (although radial layout would probably be more ergonomic than the Kinesis/ErgoDox, at least with a planar board unlike the Kinesis).

And in 3D, it seems to me that to expect the thumb to be able to hit six different keys, and 1.5u at that, will be highly impractical, since it means I have to move my thumb perpendicularly down from the plane of the rest of the fingers, and then stretch it for the upper row which (based on my rough experiments) are quite uncomfortable movements. This further makes it impossible for one to even imagine using such a TC for modifiers.

I know AcidFire said he tested the tilted TC, and that too with people of the "fairer" sex as well, which is good, I'm not sure if he considered the fact that one signficant usage pattern of the TC is for modifiers where multiple keys may be hit at the same time.

OK fine, as koren says, I still can have the Axios' TC planar with the rest of the board, but I'm just wondering aloud whether a downward TC is really all that it is made out to be... Compared to that, the Kinesis setup seems much much more sane and meaningful, since I still can turn my wrist inwards and have my index/middle fingers hit the modifiers, which is not possible with Axios with the TC down.

Now if only the Kinesis were to fix those rubber keys on the F row...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Wed, 22 July 2015, 08:24:42
IIUC you say "we'll only know whether the Axios's TC is good if we try it out" but ~250 USD which is about the current estimate isn't a small amount for everyone, especially when it has to convert into other currencies (such as my INR).
Indeed...

You can always try to create a keyboard with cardboard and modeling clay (I did this) to judge a layout, but without actually typing, it's still a guessing game :/

And in 3D, it seems to me that to expect the thumb to be able to hit six different keys, and 1.5u at that, will be highly impractical
You can always not use them... I intend to use the upper row for really uncommon functions, like japanese layer switching or rare shortcuts.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jamadagni on Tue, 28 July 2015, 22:14:39
I can't want for Axios to become available... Over the past few weeks I was seriously thinking of whether an ErgoDox would do for my requirements but the 76 keys are totally insufficient for my requirements esp with having to choose between the F-key vs number key usage of the top row.

Pushing numbers/symbols to higher shift levels (such as in this layout (https://github.com/dhardy/keyboard/blob/master/cyborg16#L50)) is unacceptable to me since our (Indian) scripts already have a large number of characters and we have to use multiple shift levels to gain access to them. In fact I suspect minimalism suits only pure Latin/English users and I'm not sure that such minimalism would be even suitable for other European languages with 4 levels (or even 8 levels which I have seen in a German layout file in XKB).

Too much cognitive load results in having to reconfigure one's practices w.r.t. which key combinations produce which characters, and as I said with scripts with a large number of characters, even theoretically devising such a layout (cramping all the required characters alongwith F-keys and the number into the 76 keys of the ErgoDox) seems well nigh impossible.

Thus if only the Axios would come to fruition soon, with its 100 keys it gives me all I want... While I have my own dream (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73685) of what a nice compact but sufficient keyboard would be like, I lack the technical knowledge to actually go about building one, so the Axios seems to be it for me...

BTW an important question: if the two halves are not going to be joined together, what will happen to the central hotkey (F-key) clusters?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: zr0h on Thu, 30 July 2015, 03:25:43
In fact I suspect minimalism suits only pure Latin/English users and I'm not sure that such minimalism would be even suitable for other European languages with 4 levels (or even 8 levels which I have seen in a German layout file in XKB).

German https://www.neo-layout.org (https://www.neo-layout.org) has 6 levels, but only 2 of them are for German letters. The rest make it _easier_ to do certain things. Which is the entire point of layers there. More layers are a good thing. Especially for numbers. If you take a look at Neo, you’ll see that the entire right half of the 4ᵗʰ layer is dedicated to essentially a number pad. I’ve never used the regular digit keys since I started using Neo. It’s more convenient and it’s faster.

Now take a look at the ErgoDox. It’s especially well suited for multiple layers with its large thumb clusters. I have shift and both Neo layer shifts there. It works wonders. Here’s a link to my layout, if you’re interested: https://github.com/kaimi/tmk_keyboard (https://github.com/kaimi/tmk_keyboard). By the way, I even have both numbers and F-keys on the first layer; it’s not impossible.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Fri, 31 July 2015, 16:38:57
I'm not dead yet! As others have noticed, my personal life has just be a little crazy. Between getting married, some scary medical news that thankfully turned out to be not so scary, and some other exciting news I can't quite share yet I've been a bit preoccupied. However, this keyboard is still very much a passion project for me and it would take a lot more for me to ever let it go.

A major slowdown for me has been prototyping, I've shared quite a bit that seems to work out in renders and even some base printing, but overall just doesn't quite work in the end. The best example I can give is the extra keys at the top of the board. While they've been something I've very much wanted to integrate, stability comes back to be a huge pain time and time again. I know flip flopping on key layouts does not help you guys at all with figuring out how you want to lay out your setups, and I'm terribly sorry it's been a bit of back and forth with it. I'll be posting what the final layout will look like in a second, with two notes:
1) The main cluster PCBs do have extra holes for the arrow clusters. Because of our current manufacturing plan, this is something we should be able to offer as an option right out of the gate.
2) The oft neglected external number pad will be available in two layouts, one for a standard number pad and the other for F keys/hot keys if you need direct access to such keys constantly.

A major part of the slowdown with the protyping was that it was being done on a machine that was never designed for what I was trying to do with it, namely dual extrusion. After cutting open my hands more than once trying to remove support material (and in one case needing stitches), and still having to fight to get decent prints we ended up investing in another printer. This new machine, unlike the previous was purpose built for dual extrusion and has made prototyping an absolute dream compared to the previous unit. No more cleaning up parts, they just go into the tank for an hour or two and are ready to go from there.

When I was experimenting in the different ways to produce manufacturable designs for the adjustable mount, I found that they were just getting more complicated. I took a step back, took a breather and readjusted my thinking (thankfully the 40min drive to and from work gives me a lot of time to think). I hit upon a design that would make the casings much cheaper to mold, would allow you to replace a joint if it were broken, makes the electrical connection automatically (instead of having to open the device to make the cable connections) and of course opens up the door for future designs/ideas.

So the first thing to note is a change in thickness:
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-103.jpg)
1. First 3d printed design, probably the closest in terms of height
2. Midway through the design cycle, this case was taller to accommodate more jack sizes
3. The tallest design by far, this design allowed for ethernet cable sized jacks and 12mm thumbscrews to make it reasonable to tighten down. It also intergrated the folding stand and the 1/4"-20 threading

The flat design in the picture above is done using what I've been calling the travel bridge:
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-104.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-105.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-106.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-107.jpg)
(the white stuff you see in some of the holes is support material that hasn't been removed yet)

When flat, from the bottom of the case (including feet) to the top of the new keycaps (more on that in a minute) it measures in at 32mm. By comparison, the last version of the case was about 24mm for just the base. Once I can get them ordered, the bars will house PCBs that make the electrical connection.

This same design can be swapped out for the adjustable arms:
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-108.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-109.jpg)

You'll also notice what I lovingly call the cheese grater at the top of the case. This is the mounting point for stands/external mounts/etc. and is still a bit of a work in progress.

This also being more travel friendly, I also revisited some earlier designs:
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-110.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-111.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-112.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-113.jpg)

I've been extremely happy with this setup, and barring major issues I'm done doing any major tinkering with it or the layout.

The last thing worth mentioning that I've been working on is a new keycap style. I've used it with both DCS and DSA and there were things I liked and didn't about both styles, so I've been working with a new cap style that combines what I like about both.
(http://[img]http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-114.jpg)
DSA, DCS, new style (unnamed)
This new style was the last thing I printed on the old machine and even with it's less than stellar tolerances the caps fit nicely on the Cherry & Matias stems. I haven't printed a full set yet for complete testing but that's underway, even on the new machine it'll take about 24 hrs to print them all. So far though I've been very happy with how comfortable they seem to be, I'll update more when I've had a few more days of testing.

The last few notes worth mentioning:
1) I've decided to hold off on the RGB backlighting for now. It complicates the setup and while I would love to include it, it isn't as vital to getting Axios out. I will however be leaving connection points in place so that it can be added in down the road to the existing design.
2) Dropping the RGB backlighting frees up a fair bit of power consumption, which lifts the barrier to what I think is a more important feature: Bluetooth. I'm currently working with someone local to get Bluetooth integrated into the design both for regular usage and configuration of the device.
3) Yes, those cutouts at the top are for screens. OLED screens to be more exact.

EDIT: Big shoutout to Kurplop for reminding me that while I had my head down at the grind stone I was being terribly negligent here :(
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: kurplop on Fri, 31 July 2015, 18:57:36
I'm glad my threats were taken seriously. :)

Actually, I'm quite impressed with what you've got here and glad to see an update. :thumb:
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: njbair on Fri, 31 July 2015, 21:35:34
This is some amazing progress. So glad I passed on the Infinity Ergodox. And the OLED screens sound like a neat idea as well.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jamadagni on Sat, 01 August 2015, 04:37:14
Very nice to hear an update from AcidFire.

So the top keys are now gone? Oh-kay, and while having the OLED seems cool for layer display etc, I do now have to rethink my proposed key layout...:
[attachimg=1]

Hm OK so I'll push Caps and possibly something else to a higher layer to make space for the <tlde> and <lsgt> keys (which are used for lots of characters in my Indic scripts), and think about what to do about Undo...

But you don't mention anything about the central hotkey clusters pictured here:
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-96.jpg)
... which I have relied on in my layout above.

That's a big important plus point for me with the Axios vs other options available right now like the ErgoDox EZ, since I really would much prefer to have the 12 F keys physically (even if not the multimedia keys which are less used and I can map to a higher layer). So I hope you're not proposing to cut that out?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jamadagni on Sat, 01 August 2015, 04:53:18
Re RGB backlighting, I just read over at KeyboardIO's site that they use Neopixels, and while they use an Arduino, apparently this adapter (http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/td_libs_OctoWS2811.html) can be used to have a Teensy drive them.

BTW the Axios is using a Teensy, isn't it? Or have I become totally confused as to the current status?

At least I remember that AcidFire was promising his own take on the RGB thingy where he mentions more than 16 million colours. Any idea what that could be useful for? IIUC the human eye is considered to not be able to differentiate more than that much (or even that much)!

And does the promise for it being able to get "added in down the road to the existing design" mean modularity advantage in that I can just later plug-in a set of LEDs or something without having to solder anything?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: hoggy on Sat, 01 August 2015, 05:44:20
Acidfire, amazing progress!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Paul on Sat, 01 August 2015, 15:27:06
Nice to hear that everything is alright and project is moving closer to production!

I like this keyboard a lot and I wish for this project so succeed. New designs look great and possible wireless option makes it even better.
But removing row of Function keys and instead adding a oled screen looks like a 2 steps back.
Why the change?

There is no practical use for the screen. On any keyboard, and especially on the keyboard targeted for comfortable touch-typing.

Maybe it could be used to show the kb layout layer or show battery life, if wireless will be supported.
But for both of these, 3 leds will do the job. They can show 8 layers, plus blink when battery is low or for other diagnostic uses.

Screen adds to keyboard cost, complicates pcb layout, and more importantly uses space at the top, that instead should be used for a extremely useful row of F-keys.
I mean regular flat row of F-keys, although the tilted F-key module looked very nice and comfortable and fit very well with the keyboard.

I suspect that a row of switches + keycaps will probably cost more than a screen :), but that adds a very useful feature.
A separate F key cluster like numpad is a good option if it is used rarely, but a row included in the main keyboard is better for frequently used actions.

Again, I like this project. There are other areas that can help with adoption of the end product. Different thumb clusters, sculpted keycaps, usb hub, audio connectors, even integrated scrollwheel or a trackpoint would have some practical usefulness, screen - has none, and takes invaluable time to integrate into the design.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: davkol on Sat, 01 August 2015, 16:52:09
A screen *might* be very helpful, if on-the-fly macro recording is supported.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jamadagni on Sat, 01 August 2015, 19:30:02
+1 for a screen but do we need two even for macro recording? And how does it figure vs LEDs in terms of power consumption? Maybe left side screen and right side LEDs?

Also, I now re-read this part:

Quote from: AcidFire
2) The oft neglected external number pad will be available in two layouts, one for a standard number pad and the other for F keys/hot keys if you need direct access to such keys constantly.

But it is still not clear to me whether you mean the same centrally placeable and attachable one as in prototype photo 96 ehich I lonked above, or something else?

BTW that triangular attaching modifier cluster for travel -- very insightful design. It's clear you're taking time only to make ot more and more useful but in one way I'm glad I came to this thread late else i might not have lasted this long in anticipation!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: davkol on Sun, 02 August 2015, 02:37:26
Because someone might want to use only one half at a time? For example, when gaming or doing some graphic work.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jamadagni on Sun, 02 August 2015, 08:57:13
@davkol: Excellent answer! I didn't think of that. But really one would like to know about the relative power consumption. Of course, the OLED is much more flexible!

... but yikes! Was this list of disadvantages of OLEDs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLED#Disadvantages) taken into consideration?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jamadagni on Mon, 03 August 2015, 20:29:31
Further on the OLED topic, IIANM it is accepted procedure (http://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/how-to-recover-from-a-beverage-spill-on-your-keyboard/) to give alcohol baths to keyboards in case of spilt liquids etc, and if even water can damage OLEDs, I'd assume alcohol certainly can, since it's also organic. (Correct me if I'm wrong – I'm certainly not an expert on this.)

Now in such case, if an OLED were attached to the board, then one would to be extremely careful to just submerge the board part and not the OLED part in alcohol, but given that a careless mistake would be the cause of the problem in the first place, making the solution also prone to such a mistake (I mean, if you prop it up against something holding the OLED out of the alcohol and it slips or such) doesn't seem to be good design...

Or the OLED would have to be made yet another detachable module which should be detached prior to such a bath, which is, well, at least cause for more design costs...

Better look at other options, though? How about LED-based displays? Don't they come in such small sizes? And do they also get affected likewise by alcohol/other liquids?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Oobly on Tue, 04 August 2015, 01:50:25
Further on the OLED topic, IIANM it is accepted procedure (http://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/how-to-recover-from-a-beverage-spill-on-your-keyboard/) to give alcohol baths to keyboards in case of spilt liquids etc, and if even water can damage OLEDs, I'd assume alcohol certainly can, since it's also organic. (Correct me if I'm wrong – I'm certainly not an expert on this.)

Now in such case, if an OLED were attached to the board, then one would to be extremely careful to just submerge the board part and not the OLED part in alcohol, but given that a careless mistake would be the cause of the problem in the first place, making the solution also prone to such a mistake (I mean, if you prop it up against something holding the OLED out of the alcohol and it slips or such) doesn't seem to be good design...

Or the OLED would have to be made yet another detachable module which should be detached prior to such a bath, which is, well, at least cause for more design costs...

Better look at other options, though? How about LED-based displays? Don't they come in such small sizes? And do they also get affected likewise by alcohol/other liquids?

TBH, I wouldn't be concerned about any of these issues. Colour balance is likely to be the only noticed issue and then only after a number of YEARS of on-time on the display. An easy solution to this is to only enable the display when it's needed. Certainly doesn't seem to be an issue with any phone of mine and the benefits over LCD far outweigh anything on that list in my opinion.

I am not aware of alcohol baths being an "accepted procedure" at all, since it will dissolve all lubricants in the switches and can affect most case materials negatively, too. I certainly would not do this to any of my own boards.

Still not sure there's any really useful reason to have a display on a keyboard, but if AcidFire thinks there's a good case for having it in there, that's okay. I worry about the increases in cost, complexity and decrease in durability / toughness / reliability (more to go wrong and more easily). Especially for a first product release.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Tue, 04 August 2015, 07:18:04
While it's true that the underlying goal of this board is comfortable, healthy typing over all else keep in mind that there are a number of functions that the board will support that the screen(s) are ideal for:

- Layer Indication -
While many of us are very capable of memorizing LED combos for what layer we're using, I've had many others express concern over not being able (or really, willing) to. The screen(s) address this issue for them at what is actually a minimal cost increase over LEDs.

- Bluetooth/Battery -
One of the biggest reasons for the screen(s) they cover a myriad of functions:
 - Battery level + charge indicator
 - Device currently connected to. The plan right now is to implement the bluetooth with a setup that allows it to keep 3-8 pairings that you can hot swap between with a simple keypress, as well as allow one device to slave to the the other wirelessly (potentially, still requires R&D)
 - Signal Strength
 - Pairing instructions/Security code
 
- Macro Recording -
Pretty self explanatory, as davkol already pointed out would make on the fly recording of macros simple and easy to visualize.

- Options/Status -
Another major aim with this board was for it to be system-agnostic as possible, which is why it's designed to keep all the profiles & settings on the board. This should help to keep the board friendly for environments like schools where you have no ability to install any supporting software. Or if you don't have the bluetooth modules to give you access to configuration tool, the screen(s) make it easier to change settings without going into the config files, especially for those who don't quite know what they're doing or feel comfortable editing a core file.

Addressing the concerns towards the screen(s) and the choice to use OLED displays:
- Power Consumption -
The datasheet for the display says that at 100% of the screen being on it should draw about 30ma, which is about 10-15ma higher than what you would drive an average LED at. By comparison, a typical RGB LED at full brightness white will draw about 60ma, or with say 5 LEDs you're looking at a 300ma draw. The numbers provided by datasheets are almost always under the most ideal situations and thus I'll be doing extensive consumption testing when the daughterboards come in, but even at 2-3 times what the datasheet expects it still clocks in much lower than even the LEDs. Typical LCDs in this size range with an LED backlight draw about 120-200ma on a single color backlight. I'm also looking at a couple of different power profiles just like a laptop, plugged in versus battery powered where the display will only power on under certain conditions.

- Viewing Angle -
With a concern towards tenting angles, the OLED display made a much better choice over an LCD with an (ideal) viewing angle of up to about 180°. In reality, I'm sure it will be a bit lower, however by comparison the typical LCD is usually 120° or less, and even towards the end of that range the polarization in the panel tends to make it look wonky anyways.

- Size -
The OLED display I've selected is 1.5mm. By comparison, I'd be looking at about 6-7mm for an LCD + LED backlight before we even talk about the board they'd be mounted to. When space is at a premium, this is a massive difference. It's also difficult & relatively expensive to get a graphic LCD in the same size as to what I've selected for Axios.

However, just like the modular nature of everything else with Axios the screens are not mounted directly to the same board as the key switches, allowing for removal, upgrade, replacement, etc etc. I also have a simple blank plate that can be used in it's place if you don't want either the LEDs or screens.

Now, as for the extra switches/hotkeys... I have to start by saying that while it can be admittedly frustrating at times sharing everything as it's being developed, you fine folks help to keep me on track with what I'm working on. I'll freely admit that I had omitted the mounts for the extra hot keys primarily because I wasn't a fan of the asthetics of it, but also because they add instability to the tented design, particularly at the higher angles. If I become a slave to aesthetics first and let functionality suffer, then I become a hypocrite in regards to my opinion on things like Apple hardware which can end up functionally limited for the sake of pretty. So when you questioned as to whether or not they were still available, and made it known that it could be a deal breaker for a number of you it was frustrating. Thankfully my patient wife listened and provided a sounding wall that helped me get past my frustration and into a revision of the design that not only works with the existing mounts, it reduces costs and extraneous parts + molds.
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-115.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-116.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-117.jpg)
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-118.jpg)
While the design of the stands needs some tweaking (there are currently revised parts printing), deployed it sits at a 15° angle and folded up a 5° angle. It's also stronger and more supportive at the point where it connects to the body in comparison to previous designs. More to come when the new parts finish printing (really need to invest in more printers!).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jamadagni on Wed, 05 August 2015, 03:23:45
While it's true that the underlying goal of this board is comfortable, healthy typing over all else keep in mind that there are a number of functions that the board will support that the screen(s) are ideal for:
Wow – and I didn't even imagine half of them! Cool. And as davkol said, I also agree that the full OLED isn't going to be running all the time, so it wouldn't wear down so quickly. If the OLED would also have a sleep mode or low brightness mode which it automatically goes to after a given period of time, I guess it would further lengthen the life.

Now, as for the extra switches/hotkeys... I have to start by saying that while it can be admittedly frustrating at times sharing everything as it's being developed, you fine folks help to keep me on track with what I'm working on. I'll freely admit that I had omitted the mounts for the extra hot keys primarily because I wasn't a fan of the asthetics of it, but also because they add instability to the tented design, particularly at the higher angles. If I become a slave to aesthetics first and let functionality suffer, then I become a hypocrite in regards to my opinion on things like Apple hardware which can end up functionally limited for the sake of pretty. So when you questioned as to whether or not they were still available, and made it known that it could be a deal breaker for a number of you it was frustrating. Thankfully my patient wife listened and provided a sounding wall that helped me get past my frustration and into a revision of the design that not only works with the existing mounts, it reduces costs and extraneous parts + molds.

I'm sorry if I've inadvertently given you any trouble by repeatedly asking for the F keys. You are already putting in a huge amount of work on this, and I really have no right to ask you to further complicate things for yourself. But it's only because you did say you intend for it to be modular and extensible, and are so nice about taking feedback positively [and have your wife to calm you down even if you get bothered by it – yay for the fortune of having a wonderful wife ;)] ... that I asked about it yet again.

As I have said in an earlier post (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg1813668#msg1813668), I already put my alpha/numeric/symbol keys to maximum use on four levels due to the complexity of the multiple (orthographic) scripts I use regularly, which is why I am loth to remap numeric keys to F keys, which also I use often as a power user. So having the F keys separately does help a lot! Others like tups (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg1251724#msg1251724) and zr0h (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg1815072#msg1815072) have kindly shared their ideas of how F keys can be avoided, but they don't fit my requirements of four real levels of distinct characters belonging to the same script (not just convenience levels for navigation/other script as in Neo levels 4 to 6).

But there are a couple more aspects to this. If the F-key cluster were of necessity to be a bridge between the two halves like in:
(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-96.jpg)
... then the possibility of orienting the two halves as per one's natural shoulder/hand orientation would be lost.

But you say in your earlier post:
2) The oft neglected external number pad will be available in two layouts, one for a standard number pad and the other for F keys/hot keys if you need direct access to such keys constantly.
If that then means that it's a separate detachable module, then that's great and fine, which gives the best of both worlds! Do you have a tentative layout for such a number/F pad you can share?

Now can you answer the question about the RGB backlighting I posed earlier:
And does the promise for it being able to get "added in down the road to the existing design" mean modularity advantage in that I can just later plug-in a set of LEDs or something without having to solder anything?

Thanks a lot, and best wishes for your every success!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: njbair on Wed, 05 August 2015, 10:40:53
All this talk about OLED screens has got me curious, what kind of chip are you going to use to drive this board? I'm thinking an AVR won't cut it, so probably an ARM chip of some kind?

I'm also curious about the firmware. You've mentioned the idea of an easy-to-use configurator but I kind of like getting under the hood a little bit, like with TMK. Will this be an option?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Wed, 05 August 2015, 13:19:47
Hey, I check the thread four times a day without success, and as soon as I leave the internet, news arrive! Good news, too. Since I have the chance, congratulations, AcidFire!

The new prototypes are really nice. I personally prefer keys to screens (I even choosed Ergodox EZ over Infinity), but that's not a big issue at all. Is there still LEDS on the thumb clusters, or do the screen replaced them completely?

Curious about the keycaps, too...

I'm also curious about the firmware. You've mentioned the idea of an easy-to-use configurator but I kind of like getting under the hood a little bit, like with TMK. Will this be an option?
I remember AcidFire saying that the project would be opensourced once released. If that's still the objective, you can expect a lot of tweaking... I still want to customize the firmware myself, or write a complete new one.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: JackMills on Tue, 11 August 2015, 01:36:58
I haven't been on GH recently, but wow, these "new" posts by AcidFire made my day. I am a fan of the screens, even if I am not sure what I would do with them. Oh, but it would be cool if you could have like CPU/RAM-usage or we could have the date/clock/network/volume/battery icons on it. Ok screens will be fun...

Next, you have really improved the design, it looks sleek. Looks aren't of importance to me, but if it looks better I won't be complaining. The new printer seems to be a solid investment.

The revision of that early design, the only thing I was thinking about when I saw that...give that connecting center piece a trackball!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Dynamo on Sat, 15 August 2015, 15:29:32
I am glad to see that Acidfire is ok. I have checked this thread nearly every day for updates, but have been away for a few weeks, so I was suprised and happy when I checked it today.

Regarding the keyboard. I am still a bit anxious about the number of keys. On a Swedish keyboard we use the åäö-characters in addition to A-Z. Unfortunately, many keyboard designs are developed for the English layout and then it is difficult to asign keys to åäö without using key combinations. I want keys dedicated for åäö, that are easy to reach since they are quite common in the Swedish language. I asume there are even more characters in other languages. So, in my view, it is better to have too many keys than too few...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: torwag on Sat, 15 August 2015, 18:23:22
Why not keeping the openings for the screens as flexible module insert. 2 module slots which can be used to clip in modules from a wide variety of choices. Design a socket,  which holds power pins,  i2c pins or uart and some GPIOs.  A OLED screen module would be one possibility which might be even the official module, others might createn a more simple LED module,  there could be sound or vibration modules,  one could think of input modules like capacity touch,  pressure sensitive buttons,  dials,  knobs, wheels whatever someone need for his very particular workflow. And if you want to keep it simple,  just create a blank cover (or one with a penholder).
That would make the keyboard the first one with a module / shield / cape / extension board -  design and brings customizable keyboards to a complete new level.

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jeep on Thu, 20 August 2015, 02:09:37
super exciting... love to see that there are updates happening. ;)

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Mon, 24 August 2015, 15:41:18
super exciting... love to see that there are updates happening. ;)
Yes, and I hope the campaign will be launched soon, because I'm coding more and more strange things as possible firmware parts.

The last being an Enigma mode ^_^


Not totally "for the fun and nothing more", though... I'm still looking for a system where I can type weak passwords on the keyboard and have strong passwords sent to the computer. Seems a really promising solution.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: clickclack123 on Wed, 26 August 2015, 21:40:46
The last being an Enigma mode ^_^

Not totally "for the fun and nothing more", though... I'm still looking for a system where I can type weak passwords on the keyboard and have strong passwords sent to the computer. Seems a really promising solution.

Cool sounding idea, but wouldn't the Enigma "Wheels" or encoders or whatever they're called need to be in the correct starting point?

Wouldn't this open the possibility of getting locked out of everything if the keyboard ever failed?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Thu, 27 August 2015, 14:48:08
Cool sounding idea, but wouldn't the Enigma "Wheels" or encoders or whatever they're called need to be in the correct starting point?

Wouldn't this open the possibility of getting locked out of everything if the keyboard ever failed?
Indeed... I'll try to discuss this further when everything is ready, but my idea is the following : a master (rather strong) password for the keyboard that set the wheels shift/wheels initial position/wires and everything, so that if someone take your keyboard and don't know the master password, knowing the weak passwords won't allow him to access your data.

After that, a button put the wheels back in the initial position (to enter a new password), and a button "clean" the master password after you're done. I've posted the general ideas last summer in this thread I think. It's just a new way to implement it I try.

I'm looking into the amount of data (mostly couples of weak passwords/strong password) you would need to be able to convert a weak password into a strong one. I doubt it's an issue, but that's still an interesting point from a cryptanalysis point of view.


At the end, nothing is stored in the keyboard... and I think that could be a better solution than the hashs / md5 / other kind of cryptography tricks I tried last year to do the same thing. Using a last stage can insure you get lowercase, uppercase, numbers and symbols.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Faokryn on Sat, 05 September 2015, 13:38:01
What the...?  It seems GeekHack stopped emailing me when this thread updates! ]:

Very exciting news! Glad to see things rolling again!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Morty on Sun, 20 September 2015, 01:53:39
hi everybody :)  I joined this forum so I could post on this thread, because I want this kb :)

If everyone is still allowed to give suggestions, I would like if there was a usb port built into the keyboard so I could connect a mouse directly to the keyboard. Or maybe a usb port on each keyboard section in case someone uses the mouse with their left hand.

Thanks to everyone who read my post :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Jette on Fri, 25 September 2015, 11:01:00
Interesting.

Will there be an option for the original layout, as featured here (https://www.crowdsupply.com/img/8799/axios-cover-updated_jpg_project-main.jpg)? The original looked fantastic, but the current designs look like a stripped-down copy of the Ergodox, which I already have.

Specifically, the loss of the rearranged arrow-key cluster toward the bottom is a significant reduction in design; one of the major frustrations of using the Ergodox is the absence of a nice, clean, easy-to-use cluster of arrow keys in a sensible arrangement for those archaic and poorly thought-out programs that demand the use of the arrow keys and don’t let you change them. Having them in a straight, horizontal arrangement is counterintuitive—this was one of the major things that the Truly Ergonomic Keyboard (http://therandymon.com/uploads/tech_images/tek-keyboard.jpg) got right.1

The reduction of the thumb key clusters could be good or bad, depending on the exact dimensions of the keyboard and the size of the given user’s thumbs. Personally, I would rather have more thumb keys than less—the current design offers fewer than the Ergodox.

In spite of the changes, this remains an excellent design, and I’ll still likely end up buying the keyboard when it comes out, if the price is reasonable and the assembly doesn’t involve another twelve hours soldering, since I can (hopefully) figure out a way to use Bépo with the extra letter keys.2 All the same, I think—from an aesthetic and functional standpoint—the design on the page I linked is still the best by far, and I hope it will remain available for those interested in it.

1. I’m also aware they’re a decidedly more corporate entity than the Ergodox people, so their attorneys may have bludgeoned you into scrapping the design, for whatever outrageous reason. I haven’t read through every single post.
2. Bépo is a French layout, with extra keys for é, è, ç, à, etc. I could never get it to work with Ergodox because a) Massdrop’s so-called configurator is terrible and b) it’s an international keyboard layout, and I have no idea which keys go where, c) even if I did, I’d have to do it all in C, and programming requires way, way too much executive function for me to handle in greater than minute doses, and d) there aren’t enough keys on the Ergodox—you need eleven or twelve per row, whereas the Ergodox only has ten.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Morty on Fri, 25 September 2015, 21:11:06
I didn't realize about the arrow keys until Jette's post.

I think arrow keys like these are best:
http://digitalunite.com/sites/default/files/images/LZ0023-4-arrowkeys.jpg

But I don't have any ergonomic studies or anything to back it up.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: vvp on Sat, 26 September 2015, 04:06:17
My guess would be that (from the ergonomic point of view) the best arrow cluster would be just 4 keys in a row possibly somewhat column staggered. Definitely not inverted T where you need to move one finger around between keys.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Yuri Khan on Sat, 26 September 2015, 07:38:08
Not necessarily. On an inverted-T or a diamond cluster, you have a strong finger moving around. On a 4-in-a-row cluster, one of the two most(?) frequent movement keys falls on the weakest finger.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Sat, 26 September 2015, 13:01:46
Will there be an option for the original layout, as featured here (https://www.crowdsupply.com/img/8799/axios-cover-updated_jpg_project-main.jpg)?
I can't speak for AcidFire, but he said in the past months that he wanted first to produce the current design, but variations may be available after. Besides, the project should be open-source, it's not a huge change (although maybe a costly one, because of the custom PCB order) to add a key to redo the cluster.

Maybe it's possible for AcidFire to create a PCB that allow both versions, so that getting the other layout is just a matter of redoing just a little bit of soldering (and cutting of the enclosure)? A bit like the Ergodox PCB that allow slightly different layouts in theory (but if it's working, unlike the Ergodox PCB, it's even better ^_^ ) I guess it may be tricky, though, depending on the complexity of the current PCB.


The question of the arrows cluster has been a hot debate here ^_^ I don't mind either myself, although I think the dedicated arrow clusters (like on truly ergonomic) are too far from home position to be really usable (thus the arrow cluster would either be a duplicate, or an unusual cluster of F-keys...)

Besides, I don't like having home/end/pgup/pgdown on the other hand. You'll probably never find a one-fits-everyone solution, but I understand how you feel.

I may miss a dedicated cluster when I'm not typing, but I'm starting to think I'd rather have an extended numpad on the side of the keyboard, with numbers, operators, a couple of functions, navigation keys, etc. A kind of mechanical version of this : http://www.selling.loganempire.com/var/albums/Hotlinks/Pict0002.jpg

The reduction of the thumb key clusters could be good or bad, depending on the exact dimensions of the keyboard and the size of the given user’s thumbs. Personally, I would rather have more thumb keys than less—the current design offers fewer than the Ergodox.
Isn't it also 6 keys on Ergodox? (at least, it's 6 on the Ergodox I used and on Ergo EZ I'm currently waiting for) As far as I can tell, the only difference in keys between the two are the additionnal 6 keys on top of Acidfire's keyboard (plus the possible two 9-keys additional clusters).

I’m also aware they’re a decidedly more corporate entity than the Ergodox people, so their attorneys may have bludgeoned you into scrapping the design, for whatever outrageous reason.
Nothing has been said about this, and I'm pretty sure you can't protect such a detail of a design. It has been seen elsewhere, too (like on TRON keyboards, which are for the oldest ones, 30 years old, so older than anything Truly Ergonomic produced).

Bépo is a French layout, with extra keys for é, è, ç, à, etc. I could never get it to work with Ergodox because a) Massdrop’s so-called configurator is terrible and b) it’s an international keyboard layout, and I have no idea which keys go where, c) even if I did, I’d have to do it all in C, and programming requires way, way too much executive function for me to handle in greater than minute doses, and d) there aren’t enough keys on the Ergodox—you need eleven or twelve per row, whereas the Ergodox only has ten.
This is at least something I can promise: you'll be able to get the Bépo you want without having to spend nights in firmware configuration. AcidFire should provide a configuration tool, but if it doesn"t allow you to create the keyboard you want, I'll provide one (or an alternative firmware). I want something far more exotic than Bépo (I'm french, but I don't share all the choices behind the Bépo, even its variations), so I'm more than eager to invest a lot of time in this.

(when I say more exotic, it's not just a matter of being able to put any letter on any key, but having the functionalities of a kind of cellular automata in the keyboard, there's plently of tricks that can be done in such a programmable keyboard that you simply can't do on a normal keyboard I'd like to use)

I fact, if you still need a Bépo layout for your Ergodox in a couple months (when EZ ships), I may be able to help you, although it may takes some time. Unfortunately, I can't right now because I don't have an Ergodox to do tests.

Not necessarily. On an inverted-T or a diamond cluster, you have a strong finger moving around. On a 4-in-a-row cluster, one of the two most(?) frequent movement keys falls on the weakest finger.
That's only if you use the (common, VI-style) left-up-down-right order and on the right hand. There's some people that suggest putting the keys in a different order, or better, on the left hand since if makes left, arguably the less used key the one that fall on the weakest finger.

I think arrow keys like these are best:
Probably mostly a question of preferences and habits. It's also the shape I prefer, probably because I used them A LOT. But I'll put them in the middle of the keyboard for easier access, on a layer. I already use this on linux and enjoy it, I just hope the staggered columns won't make thinks harder (inverted T may be better).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Jette on Sat, 26 September 2015, 13:59:08
I appreciate the offer, Koren.

I don’t like everything about Bépo, either, especially the placement of the W key (makes sense for French, where it rarely shows up, but terrible for English, where it shows up a lot); I was using it as example to illustrate the benefit of having separate keys for accented letters. Customizing it would definitely be a plus. I’d definitely be interested in whatever software you come up with for customizing it; I went thought a huge headache getting my Ergodox just right (I made a press-and-release layer for all the <{(-type characters because I’m too lazy to reach all the way up to the number keys).

I used the TECK as an example of the placement of the keys, not necessarily the arrangement. I prefer the classic inverted-T cluster, too, but anything is better than four keys arranged horizontally with totally arbitrary movement positions. Even with Vim, I never really got the hang of it, mostly because using hjkl is slow and largely pointless.

It is six keys per side on the Ergodox; I was looking at this (http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-115.jpg) picture, where there are only eight, and they’re all connected.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Sat, 26 September 2015, 16:59:08
I was using it as example to illustrate the benefit of having separate keys for accented letters.
Indeed (although I've à, ç and ù on an alt-gr layer myself because I use far more often brackets, parenthesis and other common programming characters). Fully agree on the W, too.

About the layout, I'd still prefer a double regular-sized column on the size instead of a single larger one. I'm used to two additional columns for the right pinkie. But designing and producing a custom keyboard is such a long (and expensive) task that I'll gladly take this as a huge upgrade to commonly available keyboards (including Ergodox, if only for the tenting... I've an EZ in order, but the non-bendable thumb cluster is a big limitation for me, and the thumb cluster on Ergodox is, for no real reason, too far from the rest of the keyboard anyway).


It is six keys per side on the Ergodox; I was looking at this (http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-115.jpg) picture, where there are only eight, and they’re all connected.
I think you should see this one as an alternate layout for those who want a keyboard with connected halves, since there was some demand for an older prototype (flat and in a single piece).

The main layout is still the one with two separate half-keyboards, with 6 on each thumb clusters (although 2 raws of 3 x 1.5u keys, not the Ergodox thumb cluster layout)

I'm pretty sure that AcidFire showed this solution mostly to show that you can have a "joined" keyboard if you prefer with the new system he designed to attach parts...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Jette on Sat, 26 September 2015, 18:08:22
Yeah, I figured that out after I posted (thirty-five page thread, attention span, etc.). That might be interesting as a portable version; I can’t take my Ergodox anywhere. That’d still leave the obvious issue of where to put it (you can’t put it on top of the laptop’s keyboard, because it’ll press keys and cover the mouse), but at least it’d be in one piece.

The biggest thing I see right here is the absence of a sixth key in the row just below the home row. The physical dimensions of the keyboard might make it impossible, but that’d be a good place for two extra keys. That, again, is another reason I’m enamored with the original design (http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-19.jpg), which has six keys for the home row and the rows above and below. It could be an illusion of the photographs, but the current design looks, at once, smaller (fewer keys) and yet somehow larger, taking up more space.

As I’ve said, though, the current design is miles better than anything else I’ve seen, ergonomically speaking (except maybe the Maltron keyboards, (http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_images/maltron_ergonomic_e_type_keyboard_large.jpg) but those are like $600 and bigger than a typewriter). And it’s still got more accessible keys than either the Maltron or the Ergodox (I’m not counting the keys in the middle of the Maltron, since I suppose they want me to tap them with my nose, which is harder than it sounds). The bendable thumb cluster is a major improvement; I can only reach two of each of the thumb cluster keys at a time.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Sun, 04 October 2015, 17:37:41
(http://axios.io/exports/fun/hawaii.jpg)
Greetings from Hawaii! We're curently having a bit of an overcast/overly windy day on Maui, so I was given special permission from the wife to post while we're on our honeymoon :D

I should probably get the first major announcement out of the way... I quit my job! With a tremendous amount of support from my wife and some careful financial planning, I will officially be working on Axios full time as of November 1st! My last day would have been sooner but unfortunately I do a fair amount at my job and it takes time to get someone new up to speed (we're also on a three week tradeshow/honeymoon). This also means I don't burn bridges and we can work on agreements for ongoing access of the equipment at work until I have the funds for my own.

Since my last post I'm happy to say that very little has changed with the latest revision, with the only notable changes being made to widen the arms to pass more through electrically and to strengthen them at the same time. I've also integrated a better mount for the wrist rest which I am currently working on, or rather will be when we get back. This new arm/mating design has also enabled me to go to what I had originally envisioned for the adjustable arms and the result is a substantially stronger mount, far less prone to slippage than the previous designs suffered from. As a side benefit from playing around with these new arms I've discovered they work exceptionally well as a stand, and I think with some type of shoe design for them will work far better than previous iterations. It's also worth mentioning that I now have modular mounts for 1/4"-20 hard points, which should give those of you looking to mount it somewhere an easier time doing so without driving up the cost of the core unit.

Unfortunately due to a design oversight on my part the new PCB files I sent off were delayed when two of the designs were unproducible, holding up the whole order and preventing me from taking a working set up to Mini Maker Faire Seattle (grumble grumble). Thankfully just about everyone was happy to just put their hands on it and I ended up having a good chat with a few GHers as well and just like last year was a very encouraging push to keep going. More importantly I spoke with a hardware vendor there, and I think we've finally got a solid solution for bluetooth and... a trackpad.

That's right, I've got a preliminary design done for a trackpad module that fits in the same space as the thumb clusters, meaning you'll be able to either mount it up between the halves, or even as one of the clusters under your thumbs. More specifically, I've done two designs; one as a straight trackpad only and the other with the inclusion of buttons under each of the four corners. I'll be ordering PCBs for testing fairly quickly while we're still away so I should have them before the end of October. The matching mechanical designs have also been done so I should be able to post some pics of the mockups when I get back. I promise when I'm more technically skilled or have the money to pay someone more technically skilled I'll get a design done for a trackball, but for now this should help solve many of your mousing needs.

As for the previously mentioned bluetooth, after a long discussion with said vendor (gotta keep it under my hat for now) I'm designing a bluetooth module with a secondary radio, which will be used as the wireless bridge. This keeps costs down (new radio is cheaper and supposedly better than the bluetooth speedwise) as well as giving the option for more wirelessly connected devices as the radio can act as a hub, much like the Logitech unifying receiver set up. Yes, this includes the oft requested numpad/hotkey external module.

We've also settled on a cable standard for the wired bridge between the split halves, which sadly I will keep to myself for now because 1) I've been advised not to as it's a solid marketing point for the campaign and 2) it does still bear testing (I have PCBs waiting for me at home). Why am I telling you guys now? Because I'm excited at how solid and open ended this new connection and the awesomeness it brings to the project. The new cables will be far easier to get a hold of than either 3.5mm TRRS or even the right RJ series cables (phone/ethernet for you non techs). It also enabled me to finally add something else....

The usb hub I've been asked about again and again is now officially part of the design. While not a core component, it is designed to be a 2 minute drop in feature that anyone can add to their boards at any time. Right now, the design adds two external usb ports as well as one internal, with the final being occupied by the keyboard itself. The first version is a usb 2.0 hub with plans to upgrade that to a usb 3.1 hub down the road. Depending on how numbers look, we'll most likely end up offering both side by side until the price of hub controller chips for the 3.1 setup come down substantially (anything quality is just a bit over twice the price of the 2.0). The 3.1 setup is also a bit more complicated since there are far more datalines to pass to the hub and I only have so much room on the PCB but I have a solution in mind. Currently because of design constraints (read: no space left on the PCB) the hubs in the two halves are independent of each other, but I'll see what I can do about that.

That's all the time I can spare for now, I'll be posting up in far more detail with a huge picture dump after I've recovered from jet lag next Monday.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: njbair on Sun, 04 October 2015, 19:39:51
Wow, has it been two months since the last update?

Anyway, congratulations to you on your marriage and career change. Sounds like it's going to be a really exciting time for you. I know I probably speak for many Geekhackers when I say I'll be re-reading your post and taking it all in for a few days to come, but initially it looks like lots of exciting stuff in the works! Looking forward to it.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: hoggy on Mon, 05 October 2015, 00:34:50
Congratulations!  Looking forward to the the pictures.  Enjoy your honeymoon!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jamadagni on Mon, 05 October 2015, 06:41:50
Nice to hear of your Hawaii Honeymoon (oops, capitalization "accidental")...

On the keyboard side though, looks like you are going to make this much more important a part of life, which I guess is quite good for the project, but: again is there any tentative date in sight, or have you decided to avoid promising any dates because already you have had to skip a couple?

I'm writing this using a 10-year old TVSE mechanical keyboard, which is far better than any membrane keyboard, but my fingers/arms and new computer is asking me when I will be bringing in the split ergonomic thingy...

As for trackball, I already bought a Kensington Orbit so for now I'll just put it between the two halves, but it's the "when" question that keeps putting me off the Axios and towards the ErgoDox EZ, and the fact that the ErgoDox has proven software for it.

Which causes me to ask: what about the software side of things? Are you going to be able to use any existing firmware? Looks like TMK and chrisandreae are valid alternates for ErgoDox with each its own set of special features... Rather than writing new software right from scratch (and go through a long debug/maturation cycle) would it be better/possible to use one of these?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: wasabah on Mon, 05 October 2015, 07:27:30
Holy ****! Congratulations!
Can't wait to see the outcome of this.. :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: harlw on Mon, 05 October 2015, 14:20:04
wow! subd
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: JackMills on Wed, 07 October 2015, 03:54:29
Enjoy the honeymoon. And congrats on that big step of quitting your job. And even more so for committing full-time to this project.
Enjoy Hawai!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Niomosy on Wed, 07 October 2015, 16:50:20
Congrats on the wedding, AcidFire, and best of luck.  I've been checking in on this one quite regularly.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 08 October 2015, 00:30:32
Nice to hear of your Hawaii Honeymoon (oops, capitalization "accidental")...

On the keyboard side though, looks like you are going to make this much more important a part of life, which I guess is quite good for the project, but: again is there any tentative date in sight, or have you decided to avoid promising any dates because already you have had to skip a couple?

I'm writing this using a 10-year old TVSE mechanical keyboard, which is far better than any membrane keyboard, but my fingers/arms and new computer is asking me when I will be bringing in the split ergonomic thingy...

As for trackball, I already bought a Kensington Orbit so for now I'll just put it between the two halves, but it's the "when" question that keeps putting me off the Axios and towards the ErgoDox EZ, and the fact that the ErgoDox has proven software for it.

Which causes me to ask: what about the software side of things? Are you going to be able to use any existing firmware? Looks like TMK and chrisandreae are valid alternates for ErgoDox with each its own set of special features... Rather than writing new software right from scratch (and go through a long debug/maturation cycle) would it be better/possible to use one of these?

Thanks all for the congrats :)

I've been avoiding giving a timeline because with my work schedule, I honestly wasn't sure what was manageable. Given where I'm now at with development and the fact that I'm now able to move to a full time schedule (without coming home burned out from work), we're tentatively aiming to get the campaign ready to go by the end of November/first week of December and are pulling assets together to make that happen.

Firmware wise the first version will be what I've been working with which is based on the mbed platform, however I've already talked with Koren about getting one of the beta units in his hands since he's been chomping at the bit to get up and running with it. With a full time schedule I do want to take a look at what it'll take to get some of the extended functionality running with TMK. It's entirely possible the final firmware will either be something from Koren or a fork of TMK. This is one of the many reasons we're sticking with open source.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jamadagni on Thu, 08 October 2015, 00:52:59
Hi AcidFire and nice to hear back from you.

we're tentatively aiming to get the campaign ready to go by the end of November/first week of December and are pulling assets together to make that happen.

"Campaign" in Nov-Dec would mean product shipping possibly when?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Niomosy on Thu, 08 October 2015, 14:25:51
Congrats on the good, if wallet-breaking, news!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Steezus on Thu, 08 October 2015, 14:39:52
Hi AcidFire and nice to hear back from you.

we're tentatively aiming to get the campaign ready to go by the end of November/first week of December and are pulling assets together to make that happen.

"Campaign" in Nov-Dec would mean product shipping possibly when?

I think it's a little too early to guess shipping dates. I don't think AcidFire has even contacted any shops at this point to see prices and shipping. I'm pretty sure this is still in the design and testing stage.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: njbair on Thu, 08 October 2015, 15:06:51
Nice to hear of your Hawaii Honeymoon (oops, capitalization "accidental")...

On the keyboard side though, looks like you are going to make this much more important a part of life, which I guess is quite good for the project, but: again is there any tentative date in sight, or have you decided to avoid promising any dates because already you have had to skip a couple?

I'm writing this using a 10-year old TVSE mechanical keyboard, which is far better than any membrane keyboard, but my fingers/arms and new computer is asking me when I will be bringing in the split ergonomic thingy...

As for trackball, I already bought a Kensington Orbit so for now I'll just put it between the two halves, but it's the "when" question that keeps putting me off the Axios and towards the ErgoDox EZ, and the fact that the ErgoDox has proven software for it.

Which causes me to ask: what about the software side of things? Are you going to be able to use any existing firmware? Looks like TMK and chrisandreae are valid alternates for ErgoDox with each its own set of special features... Rather than writing new software right from scratch (and go through a long debug/maturation cycle) would it be better/possible to use one of these?

Thanks all for the congrats :)

I've been avoiding giving a timeline because with my work schedule, I honestly wasn't sure what was manageable. Given where I'm now at with development and the fact that I'm now able to move to a full time schedule (without coming home burned out from work), we're tentatively aiming to get the campaign ready to go by the end of November/first week of December and are pulling assets together to make that happen.

Firmware wise the first version will be what I've been working with which is based on the mbed platform, however I've already talked with Koren about getting one of the beta units in his hands since he's been chomping at the bit to get up and running with it. With a full time schedule I do want to take a look at what it'll take to get some of the extended functionality running with TMK. It's entirely possible the final firmware will either be something from Koren or a fork of TMK. This is one of the many reasons we're sticking with open source.

If you manage to get extended functionality running with TMK through mbed, is that something that can be ported back upstream for Infinity boards as well? Because that would be awesome. I'm running TMK on both of my Infinities despite the missing boot magic, media keys, etc., just because I like working with it so much better than that web configurator.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Sat, 10 October 2015, 23:15:46
We've been in contact with a couple of shops already, including the local one I've mentioned a few times who we'll be working with through the final design changes to ensure we've got a proper timeline. Currently we're still aiming to handle pretty much everything but the injection molding in house which shortens our production timeline since we're not sitting a queue with other projects. We're still aiming for a 6 month delivery from the end of the campaign, with the possibility of much sooner if things go well through the final design steps.

As for the firmware, it wouldn't be TMK through mbed, it would just be TMK, or possibly a fork of TMK, depending on what we're finding for the final functionality. It's really tough to say until I've got the latest controllers in hand, but I've got some work arounds coming in the meantime. What is it that you like better about TMK specifically njbair?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Niomosy on Sat, 10 October 2015, 23:35:06
Great news.  So we've got under 6 months for wallet preparation, everyone!  ;)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: njbair on Sat, 10 October 2015, 23:37:37
We've been in contact with a couple of shops already, including the local one I've mentioned a few times who we'll be working with through the final design changes to ensure we've got a proper timeline. Currently we're still aiming to handle pretty much everything but the injection molding in house which shortens our production timeline since we're not sitting a queue with other projects. We're still aiming for a 6 month delivery from the end of the campaign, with the possibility of much sooner if things go well through the final design steps.

As for the firmware, it wouldn't be TMK through mbed, it would just be TMK, or possibly a fork of TMK, depending on what we're finding for the final functionality. It's really tough to say until I've got the latest controllers in hand, but I've got some work arounds coming in the meantime. What is it that you like better about TMK specifically njbair?
I find it easier to do complex layouts and layer configurations with TMK. There were some simple things I couldn't figure out how to do with the Infinity firmware, although I'm sure there's a way. I suppose the key is hasu's great support for his software.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jamadagni on Sun, 11 October 2015, 00:16:10
My wallet is ready. Gimme now, or else... ;-)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: louiscarter88 on Thu, 15 October 2015, 05:03:14
Will we be able to buy only one half to use for a gaming pad? (think razer orbweaver replacement)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: BigDov on Thu, 15 October 2015, 19:40:06
Looking forward to seeing this materialize on CrowdSupply, or anywhere else for that matter - struggling with some early CTS and have started looking to an ErgoDox or similar, then stumbled on this. Can not wait!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: shogun007 on Tue, 27 October 2015, 12:05:50
This looks amazing.  Good luck on your venture! I know how scary it can be to set out on your own!  I'm excited to support and buy this as soon as it's available!

Cheers!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: W_hinklebottom on Tue, 27 October 2015, 18:04:35
This setup is pretty awesome to look at. It wouldn't be very hard to give it a control command center look make it look like it came straight off the Starship Enterprise.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jeep on Mon, 09 November 2015, 17:12:15
As we come into November...with early December hot on its heels, I am excited to see what progress happens here.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: torwag on Wed, 25 November 2015, 02:41:26
Hi,

any news? Christmas is coming and we all need to know, do we have to go cheap this year with gifts for our loved once, to save money for the new keyboard? ;)

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: m1kehonch0 on Wed, 09 December 2015, 22:02:36
Well, Im late to the party but this thing looks amazing. Ill be keeping a close eye on this project moving foward and you can expect a pile of money from me when the thing is ready for purchase. Good luck on getting it all done!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: conandy on Sat, 19 December 2015, 16:41:34
I hate to say it but I just ordered an ErgoDox from Feng on ebay, because my TEK is dying.  keeps getting more and more keys that either don't register or double press, usually one then the other. 

Was really hoping for an Axios, but since this has turned into multiple years of waiting, I couldn't hold out any longer.  I can't type on a "normal" keyboard anymore, so decided to try the ErgoDox. 

Still want an Axios.  Still plan to get one when they become real.  Keep on truckin', Acidfire.

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Sciurid89 on Sat, 16 January 2016, 17:00:16
I hate to say it but I just ordered an ErgoDox from Feng on ebay, because my TEK is dying.  keeps getting more and more keys that either don't register or double press, usually one then the other. 

Was really hoping for an Axios, but since this has turned into multiple years of waiting, I couldn't hold out any longer.  I can't type on a "normal" keyboard anymore, so decided to try the ErgoDox. 

Still want an Axios.  Still plan to get one when they become real.  Keep on truckin', Acidfire.

I better order two Axios, then - I use a TEK at work and at home. It's pretty good, but I would love more thumb buttons. Also, it will be nice to have options for the thumb height - the raised thumb keys on the TEK are just a bit annoying.

I can type on a normal keyboard, but it's hell on the fingers.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Sun, 17 January 2016, 08:19:20
I better order two Axios, then - I use a TEK at work and at home. It's pretty good, but I would love more thumb buttons. Also, it will be nice to have options for the thumb height - the raised thumb keys on the TEK are just a bit annoying.

I can type on a normal keyboard, but it's hell on the fingers.
I'm currently using more and more an Ergo-EZ (and playing with its firmware), but I hate the thumb clusters (and especially 90° rotated keycaps) nearly as much as I used to when I first tried the Ergodox.

I really, really hope I'll be able to switch it for an Axios soon! I'm pretty sure it'll be far more comfortable.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: MortimerSnurd on Mon, 18 January 2016, 16:19:08
This project looks very promising.  What is the eta on launch?  What is the projected cost of a finished board/kit?  I am in the market for one of these right now!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: livingspeedbump on Mon, 18 January 2016, 17:07:55
this is very impressive. The ErgoDox definitley needs something to make it more comfortable. Fantastic work.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Jette on Wed, 20 January 2016, 14:26:06
Have there been any developments since October? I'm still looking forward to this project, it would be a considerable improvement over the Ergodox.

I counted out the original keys (based on my preferred design, here (https://www.crowdsupply.com/img/8799/axios-cover-updated_jpg_project-main.jpg)), and it even beats out the illustrious Maltron keyboard (http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_images/maltron_ergonomic_e_type_keyboard_large.jpg) for keys per hand (the Axios offers 49 keys per hand; the Maltron only offers 42). This is huge, considering the space saved, the greater flexibility (since the two halves are kept apart), and the price difference (one assumes [i.e. hopes] they won't charge $600 for the Axios).
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Thu, 21 January 2016, 08:12:15
Have there been any developments since October?
Most probably, if AcidFire is fine, since I think he intended to invest a lot of time in this... Can't wait to see how it progressed.

and the price difference (one assumes [i.e. hopes] they won't charge $600 for the Axios).
It has been said that the price may be comparable to a 'Dox (200-250$). If that's still the case, I'm sure it'll get plently of buyers when it releases...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: tups on Tue, 26 January 2016, 10:40:45
I'd still love to get my hands on one of these... probably going to have to get a second ErgoDox though because there's only so long I can wait.

Tried the TEK once and sent it back. Too clunky.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Dynamo on Mon, 22 February 2016, 07:52:34
Any updates? Over four months since we heard from Acidfire. I hope he is ok!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: theoriginal123123 on Mon, 22 February 2016, 08:01:14
Any updates? Over four months since we heard from Acidfire. I hope he is ok!

+1! This is a super interesting project that has me reconsidering getting an Ergodox, can't wait to see where it goes!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Bromono on Mon, 22 February 2016, 18:45:03
FIrst time seeing this.

I would consider a Ergodox if I could get one with a lower thumb cluster like yours.

I hope I can snag one of these when you finish the PCB design.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: MrKaishi on Sun, 28 February 2016, 21:58:49
Just dropping a note that I'm also very interested in this keyboard, would love it if a kit was offered.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Piotr Dobrogost on Mon, 29 February 2016, 00:55:42
Any updates? Over four months since we heard from Acidfire. I hope he is ok!

Would like to hear from Acidfire, too. Since his last announcement when he said he started to work on this project full-time I assumed we were going to have more frequent updates but instead we got nothing for over four months...
Can someone ping Acidfire?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Tue, 01 March 2016, 05:16:22
Would like to hear from Acidfire, too. Since his last announcement when he said he started to work on this project full-time I assumed we were going to have more frequent updates but instead we got nothing for over four months...
Can someone ping Acidfire?
The keyboard will come when it's ready, but I also hope he and his family are fine, I wasn't expecting such a gap either :/
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Gid on Fri, 25 March 2016, 22:52:38
One of AcidFire's last posts (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg1885781#msg1885781) mentions getting married and quitting his job.  I know what it's like to get bogged down in drastic lifestyle changes, and he just went through two of the biggest... This keyboard, however, is worth waiting for.  Here's hoping for the best.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jamadagni on Mon, 28 March 2016, 21:04:03
Hmm. I'm not sure how much longer I can wait for this. At least if there are some consistent and reasonably frequent (even once a month) progress updates we can expect something. As it is, how are we to know AcidFire still is even interested in this?

If it were merely a hobby, then we don't have the right to expect anything. However, he said he was turning into this as a full time commercial venture even to the extent of quitting his job for it. But you only retain prospective customers if you keep them informed of the upcoming product… 😧
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Tue, 29 March 2016, 04:05:19
One of AcidFire's last posts (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg1885781#msg1885781) mentions getting married and quitting his job.  I know what it's like to get bogged down in drastic lifestyle changes, and he just went through two of the biggest...
Yes, but... he said one of the reasons he was quitting his job was to spend more time on his projects, including Axios. For a drastic change, it doesn't fit so well with four (?) months of silence. Without the job change, I could think he's too busy for updates, but now...

I'm not worried for the project (I'd really, really like to see it done, but I can live without it for sure), but I hope AcidFire and his family are safe and well... I find this long silence disturbing.

Meanwhile, I've bought an Ergo Ez half for comfort (although it's not perfect) and half to work on firmware, so I can wait. But I'd welcome any message like "I'm well but busy". I used to come twice a day for updates, I now come for any news.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: sheeap on Fri, 22 April 2016, 00:23:12
Looks like a set of new posts today :D: https://m.facebook.com/multiplxd/
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Howler on Fri, 22 April 2016, 08:30:44
Looks like a set of new posts today :D: https://m.facebook.com/multiplxd/

Good eye! I was starting to get really worried about this project. I mean... hoping massdrop does another ergodox infinity drop soon worried. I would much rather get an axios!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: MOZ on Fri, 22 April 2016, 10:29:55
Good eye! I was starting to get really worried about this project. I mean... hoping massdrop does another ergodox infinity drop soon worried. I would much rather get an axios!

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/infinity-ergodox
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Niomosy on Fri, 22 April 2016, 13:48:18
Might go with the VE.A instead given it's more what I was actually looking for (function keys in right place, macro keys on the left, non-matrix).  That or just wait for Kinesis to finally get their mech Freestyle out.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Dynamo on Wed, 27 April 2016, 16:25:57
Good to see that he is ok, and that the project is moving forward.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Piotr Dobrogost on Thu, 05 May 2016, 15:41:35
Looks like a set of new posts today :D: https://m.facebook.com/multiplxd/

It's disappointing there are updates on facebook but not a single word posted here, where so many people have been giving their feedback for so long...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: vatin on Fri, 06 May 2016, 05:09:52
Now infinity Ergodox is live

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Fri, 06 May 2016, 09:54:35
Good to see that he is ok.
Yes, me, too. I was beginning to be really worried by this long silence.

Now infinity Ergodox is live
I think Ergodox EZ is a closer alternative (tentable, injection case, etc.) But while EZ is nice, it still has problems shared by all Ergodox, like a bad thumb cluster.

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: FiskFisk33 on Sat, 07 May 2016, 09:57:13
Looks like a set of new posts today :D: https://m.facebook.com/multiplxd/

It's disappointing there are updates on facebook but not a single word posted here, where so many people have been giving their feedback for so long...

Maybe he got tired of wading through speculations on his demise everytime he came back to post...  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 12 May 2016, 12:56:26
I've been working on a longer post for you guys. Please don't take offense when I don't update here but do elsewhere, as I tend to put a lot more time and detail into the info I post here over the quick photos I've been putting up on facebook/instagram/twitter. Yes, I'm still working on this project full time, and so very very close to being where I'm comfortable to seek funding for it. As for the silence, there's been a couple of major reasons for it. My wife and I have been trying for a child, and sadly have lost two pregnancies. It has deeply affected both my work and desire to socialize. We've been able to work past it and I plan to be more active in the communities I participate in.

I also came to realize that posting here can affect my development cycle, with simple comments/suggestions trigger major restarts/rethinks in the pursuit of trying to please everyone that were slowing me down, ie the arrow cluster discussions. By taking a step back, I was finally able to work out a number of the design issues I've been fighting with like making the electrical connections in the adjustable arms more robust/user friendly and a workable trackball option. As I mentioned, I've got a long development post in the works that'll cover everything I've been doing.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: kurplop on Thu, 12 May 2016, 13:44:23
Thanks for the update. I'm very sorry for your loss. I've been very close to similar situations where friends and family have lost their unborn children.

Best wishes to you and your wife.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Thu, 12 May 2016, 15:12:39
Hello AcidFire...

No apologies needed (and I understand how discussions can make things difficult), do things as you see fit. We just feared that something could have happened to you and your family, and I'm sad to hear that it was actually the case. You and your wife have all my sympathy, and I hope there'll be better days soon.

(still excited to hear about the progress, though)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Niomosy on Fri, 13 May 2016, 17:30:06
Sorry to hear about your loss, AcidFire.  Glad to hear work is progressing on this one as I, like others, have been following this one for some time.

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: hoggy on Sat, 14 May 2016, 01:24:28
Sorry for your loss.  Best wishes to you both.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Dynamo on Mon, 16 May 2016, 16:41:28
Acidfire, I am sorry for your loss.

But I am glad that you are still around, and that the project is moving forward.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Scoox on Mon, 13 June 2016, 13:54:30
Hey AcidFire, glad to see you back. Best wishes to the two of you.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: morrijr on Tue, 14 June 2016, 13:43:04
Hi,

Another 'subscribed just for this thread' user here :)

I had a thought/question and wanted to put it out to see if it would be possible.

The switches (if I've read things correctly) are plate mounted. Would it be possible to use a PCB as the plate? If so, then adding the RGB leds to it should be easy; loads of room and high in the 'stack' of layers for good visibility.

Footprint would be identical to the board that the switches are soldered onto so cost the same and the fabricator would cut the holes too.

Reasonable?

J.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jleechpe on Fri, 16 December 2016, 16:48:29
Have there been any further updates anywhere since the last that AcidFire said here?
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: davkol on Sat, 17 December 2016, 07:05:16
The latest update, that I've found, is from July.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Dynamo on Mon, 20 March 2017, 21:03:50
What happened to this project? Is it dead? Acidfire turned silent a long time ago. Too bad, since it looked like an interesting product.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: conandy on Tue, 04 April 2017, 22:35:14
Acidfire's last post on facebook was May 2016.  He was still working, obviously, at that time.   Be nice to find out if he is still working on this. 

Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 01 June 2017, 13:31:30
Very much still working on this! And I know, completely terrible for a total derth of posts :( In the time I've been quiet we've welcomed into the world my beautiful little girl, Kaylee just at the end of December.  With that, I had to rejoin the work force as my wife is on maternity leave. That's kept me busy since then. Before that, I was making progress but it was slow and frustrating, making it a bit difficult to write about... nothing.

However, I have managed to cover off a number of frustrating road blocks now that I have steady access to mechanical engineers at work who are happy to trade time on personal projects. First, I have a stand design that I'm very happy with that is both supportive and adjustable. This has always been a point of extreme frustration as the adjustable & modular nature of Axios has prevented what should be standard and easy support designs from working out. Second, I have finally been able to source the pins I've been wanting to use to make the arm mounts so that you won't have to take cases apart to reconnect cables. I'm very, very happy with the results so far in testing, especially with a 100% consistency in the electrical connections between swapping parts out.

The other roadblock (or probably more accurately, personal hang up) is the information OLED display. I've been fighting with the design for the mount for awhile, as it felt rather wrong to have it in a fixed position in a design that is otherwise much more modular. As it stands, I'm going to let it go for now and mount it into a spot with the highest visibility, and use a display with the widest viewing angle I can find. If things go well with funding, we'll release it as an upgrade at cost for people who have bought into the first wave, and it'll become standard going forward from there.

The other upside to where I'm working now is spending my days doing mechanical and electrical design, which has greatly improved my skills and workflow, which has been trickling down into the final design of Axios. Happily this includes doing work with the bluetooth modules I've had specced for awhile now :D

So whats left? The big hold up right now is strengthening the case designs. Right now, there is flex with the arm mounts and near the stand mounts that require proper ribbing to be designed for the case. If we were machining them, it'd be a non issue but with an injection molded design we have to design extra strength into the case to combat this. Thankfully I've been helping one of the engineers here with the electronics & coding in exchange for help using some of the software we have access to to do strength analysis and design the ribbing which should fix the problem.

After that's been dealt with, there are a couple of design revisions I need to make with the controller now that I've gotten a lot more experience under my belt and then we're done. Check back later tonight/tomorrow, I'll try to get photos up of what I've been working on in silence.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: clickityClackity on Thu, 01 June 2017, 15:01:32
Congrats on the addition to your family! Can't wait to see the updates!
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: kittykatmax on Fri, 02 June 2017, 01:29:04
Congratulations on the birth of your daughter, Kaylee.  Pics!!!

Happy to hear the project is alive.  Very excited to see photos. :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Koren on Fri, 02 June 2017, 19:08:06
Hey, happy to hear great news... Congratulations!

You actually had me and probably others here worried. I'm so glad to hear you're fine (and more than that).

It's nice to know the project is still up, too. I started again designing mine since I thought that for personal reasons you had to give up on this...
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Niomosy on Fri, 02 June 2017, 23:17:17
Congrats on the little one, AcidFire.  Good luck on the keyboard progress.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: jakkdl on Fri, 14 July 2017, 04:06:02
Congratulations on both the kid and the job! Nice that the job brings new skills to the table. Thankfully http://keyboard.io looks to soon be satisfying my desires, but very much looking forward to what will become of this project :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Jette on Fri, 11 August 2017, 15:02:36
Is there any kind of ETA on all this? My Teensy is fried; I have to redo half my Ergodox to fix it. If it'll only be a few months, I'd rather wait and get an Axios, but if this is going to take another year, I'll need something in the meantime.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Dynamo on Mon, 18 December 2017, 06:05:35
Any updates? Checking here regularly for any news... :)
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Malachor on Mon, 18 December 2017, 18:13:45
Just did a quick search found:
https://m.facebook.com/multiplxd/
https://twitter.com/multiplxd?lang=en
http://forums.multiplxd.com/
and the latest post seems to be August 2016.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: Geobert on Wed, 15 August 2018, 07:04:31
I was looking for an ergodox with a F1-F12 keys row, it's Axios! But the project seems dead, hope AcidFire is well :-/
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: ShallowMoon on Tue, 11 September 2018, 04:48:36
I too have been following AcidFire's project for many years now, has there there been something that has slowed or stopped development? Seems he was dealing with a lot of family issues.
Title: Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
Post by: doublethink665 on Fri, 22 January 2021, 22:48:37
Has anyone heard anything about this project?
It was going strong and then seems to have vanished.
If it is a dead project, is there any chance someone is willing and able to pick it up? I don't know anything about making a kit for people to buy, but I can write code and I have a 3d printer.