Truly Ergonomic Unboxing

[Input Nirvana]

That's not a problem.  It's when your partner discovers that those boards cost more than £10-£20 that it becomes a problem.

Actually, my gf tolerates it quite well.  I don't smoke or gamble and I don't drink much.

If she doesn't, just show up with a pack of smokes, some track receipts, and a BIG bottle. lol

[wrtcedar]

And there's something else that's warping my brain. I used to live in New Mexico, where the official state question (I'm not making this up) is "Red or green?" Here it's "red or brown?" Ack!

[Input Nirvana]

Hey there's a LOT more choices....it gets nasty, red, brown, black, blue, clear, then they start taking them apart and mixing the innards for custom feels...your wallet will learn of this soon...

[appie747]

http://www.sacrideo.us/v5/blog/
Here's another review of the TE, a very positive one.

[dorkvader]

http://www.sacrideo.us/v5/blog/
Here's another review of the TE, a very positive one.

Wow, he has a datahand, and likes the TE. However, it's not "all" great. Here's a quote:

The Truly Ergonomic keyboard is simply not as ergonomic as a DataHand, and I am willing to guess, not as ergonomic as a Kinesis either.

The TE is his first keyboard with cherry switches.

[Gerk]

Wow, he has a datahand, and likes the TE. However, it's not "all" great. Here's a quote:

The Truly Ergonomic keyboard is simply not as ergonomic as a DataHand, and I am willing to guess, not as ergonomic as a Kinesis either.

The TE is his first keyboard with cherry switches.

And yet another armchair expert guess that it is not as ergonomic as the Kinesis ... which he has never tried.  I still think my TE is more ergonomic for me than the Kinesis was.

[Architect]

I've been using the TE full time for what, a week now? I've only just adjusted to it, and the Cherry Browns have broken in to the point where they're like all my other Cherry keyboards and thus more familiar (Filco & Kinesis). The keyboard isn't configured yet to my specifications as the programming software isn't available yet but here is my assessment so far, with full disclaimer that I've been a fan of this design from the beginning sight unseen (just my perspective, you may see it differently) ...

• This has been the hardest keyboard to adjust to bar none. Much more so than the Kinesis was 15 years ago, the biggest difficulty was the moving of the command/control keys, not having shift next to the 'z' row has been particularly difficult, more so compared to the command being lower. The ' key below the pinky has been difficult along with the ? on the left pinky at the upper left hand corner. Switching back to the Filco or built in laptop keyboard has been difficult with the Shift key but I'm getting used to switching again.
• The arrow keys (both blocks) are taking longer as I had to first get used to the rest of the keyboard first! Now I'm getting handier (ha ha) on them and I love it. All it requires is about a one inch hand move to get to the keys and is quicker, more intuitive and natural compared to the usual arrow key arrangement. Not as good as the Kinesis solution where they require zero hand move, but on the other hand the Kinesis has a steeper learning curve on those keys and the Pg Up/Down block is pushed out to the thumbs.
• The hand separation and angle is wonderful. Better to me than the Kinesis which separates (taking up more desk space) but you still have straight arms. I miss the Kinesis curve a bit, but the downside is that makes for a too deep keyboard with a big hand move for the frequent mouse/trackpad operations. Also this design is more solid than the curve circuit board approach of the Kinesis.
• Palm rest, what a surprise. I planned to remove it, and I did on one and kept it on the other to test. Palm rest wins hands down (another ha ha). It's solid as a rock, there is a clever arrangement of screws and interlocking parts to make it essentially part of the keyboard but still removable. I worked with the Ergo dept. at my job for a long time where a lot of Kinesis are used, and one big complaint is that hand rest. The high design of the keyboard plus the wells leads to the too strong temptation to rest the palms on the hand rests. Given the low, flat nature of this keyboard the palms naturally hover over the rests without ever using them for support while typing. I also play the piano (hence the strong interest in hand/arm/shoulder/back ergonomics) and indeed the hand/arms are in the best configuration I've ever seen with a computer keyboard. At any rate the advantage of the palm rest there is more psychological than physical, it seems to give the hang guidance as the the relative location on the keyboard. Maybe I'll drop it after I get used to the 'board, or maybe not as I do use it to rest the hand while not typing.
• Blank layout. Highly recommended, it was interesting when I first got it and had to hunt and peck to find the keys. Especially since they swapped the all important Return and Delete keys, but the images on the web site were the old ones! By the way, thank goodness they made this change, it would suck the other way around. Anyhow the keyboard looks great and blank is nice in that it forces you to use your brain more than your eyes.
• Center keys - really working out well. I don't venture above the bottom three much, well the fourth is unused presently (International 5 or something which I'll remap to something else) but having those dual thumb keys in the middle is killer. I need to practice using the center keys with the left thumb more so the right thumb isn't doing all the duty.
• Three center keys below Function keys, surprisingly useful. The final configuration has the center as a Function which gives you media keys on the function keys (except possibly screen dim, which may be due to some other settings I need to check.) In my configuration the left is Control and the right is Option. The surprising part is that they are close enough to the other keys to actually be very useful as alternate keys. When I get the reprogramming software I'll remap the lower right and left three key block (I have 109's) to be Command/Option/Control, but I might actually still use these with the pointer fingers to take some load off the pinkies.
• DIP switch. Not too happy about that, I think he stuck it in there when he realized that programming software won't be available right away, and he simply couldn't release it without being configurable. DIP's don't last too long, you really shouldn't switch them more then, I don't know, maybe a dozen times. That's what I heard from an EE friend at any rate. And it will be redundant with the software, and using the software you can make remap the DIP behavior making the printed legend out of date. On the other hand I assume it will be possible to configure the response to the DIP settings as well if you want something really customizable, but since you may not want to bang the DIPs a lot that might not be overly useful.
• Keyboard cover - nice addition, I like using them and didn't expect I was getting one. It's rather large though and I don't have a good place to put it when not in use.
• Function keys - awesome, nice to have full Cherry F keys. Looking forward to using them (I never did use any of the Kinesis because they are too weird and hard to find eraser keys)
• Dual spacebars. I like the smaller size, not sure if I'll remap the left or not but I've only used it once.
• Body Plastics. Similar to the Filco and dissimilar to the Kinesis which (in my opinion) requires getting the Advantage Pro to get the metallic paint, which I really like. Slightly soft with more tooth than the Filco, but it's pretty close and feels good to the touch.
• Compact size. Love, love love it. Fits perfectly on the desk with allowing a trackpad to nestle right next to it aligned at the correct angle to just swing the arm over to use (in general you should try to set up your station to involve arms rather than hand moves when you can, since the hand is moving so much already). Really compact layout that allows for really fast work

All IMHO, I love the Kinesis and it saved my life for 15 years, but this new boy is working out pretty well.

I still think my TE is more ergonomic for me than the Kinesis was.

Agreed, everybody has different requirements and the Kinesis works better for some I'm sure.

[Input Nirvana]

-The arrow keys (both blocks) are taking longer as I had to first get used to the rest of the keyboard first! Now I'm getting handier (ha ha) on them and I love it. All it requires is about a one inch hand move to get to the keys and is quicker, more intuitive and natural compared to the usual arrow key arrangement. Not as good as the Kinesis solution where they require zero hand move, but on the other hand the Kinesis has a steeper learning curve on those keys and the Pg Up/Down block is pushed out to the thumbs.

-Center keys - really working out well. I don't venture above the bottom three much, well the fourth is unused presently (International 5 or something which I'll remap to something else) but having those dual thumb keys in the middle is killer. I need to practice using the center keys with the left thumb more so the right thumb isn't doing all the duty.

-Three center keys below Function keys, surprisingly useful. The final configuration has the center as a Function which gives you media keys on the function keys (except possibly screen dim, which may be due to some other settings I need to check.) In my configuration the left is Control and the right is Option. The surprising part is that they are close enough to the other keys to actually be very useful as alternate keys. When I get the reprogramming software I'll remap the lower right and left three key block (I have 109's) to be Command/Option/Control, but I might actually still use these with the pointer fingers to take some load off the pinkies.

-All IMHO, I love the Kinesis and it saved my life for 15 years, but this new boy is working out pretty well.

-The 2 symmetrical movement clusters (by appearance) seem like an instant big hit to me.
-Center keys have merit, but I assume you leave home row for them? Thinking a Kinesis mod with a couple long keys just to the inside of each keywell.
-Those 3 keys seem to be positioned nicely for a variety of functions. Apart, but not far, only 3 keys so you can almost touch type them.
-Hmmm....does that mean no fire sale, on all your old, broken, beat up, used up, worthless old Kinesis door stops for GH projects then?

[dorkvader]

Just putting it out there: If architect doesn't want one of his kinesis keyboards anymore, I'll gladly take it from him for usage and frankenmodding. I might even use it as a door-stop for old-times' sake.

In any case: I'm glad people are liking their Truly-ergonomic keyboards. Personally, I wouldn't pay more than $150 for one, but that's basically my limit of sanity for keyboards. I don't really like their literature about how it's more ergonomic than a datahand, or whatever, but I do like the concept. Thanks for the lengthy writeup, Architect!

[Gerk]

Agreed that I could stand without their over-the-top literature, but I'm in the same boat that I always liked the concept, and happily I also like the reality.  I'm just getting back to spending some more time with mine and was pretty happy with how fast I could change back over to it from a flat tenkeyless board.  It took me no time at all to be comfortable on it again and it feels so much better than a flat board right away too.  The movement clusters I'm still getting used to but I'm sure that with more practice I can build the muscle memory.

[Input Nirvana]

Their 'marketing' on their website is 1/2 the reason the TE/TE company is down-talked. It appears childish and fake, very unprofessional. The other reason is the atrocious business practice for which there is NO excuse for, ever.

I think that's why most people seem surprised their boards are as nice as they are. Even the peeps that bought them are mostly in agreement about the shoddy web info, and unacceptable contact regarding the delays.

It's awesome the board delivers on many promises, for what it is, and what it isn't.

My neighbors car looks like it may roll down the hill at any moment, sure would be nice to put one of those "bricked" Kinesis boards to good use as a wheel chock! Very stylish!

EDIT---I don't think I ever defended myself from Architects slam on me. All I've done is aggressively echo the same negativity that most people had:
1) The ergo claims, on the cheezy website, correct or not. You make the claim, be prepared to defend/prove whatEVA! It's called back up. That's life, mo-fo! The comparison to Datahand is silly in any universe. You can't compare the Datahand with anything, better or worse. The comparison with Kinesis is closer, but again, not really able to make that comparison. TE will not be taking any market away from Datahand or Kinesis no matter how many cheesy comparisons are on their website.
2) The no-contact/poor-contact delays and shady biz issue. You are what you are. You can't hide from that. Embrace it. Honesty and an up-front aspect goes a long way. It's not the old days when everything was invisible. The world is much more transparent. Bottom line to TE: Don't be a ****, and hire me.

[Architect]

Thanks for the lengthy writeup, Architect!

You are very welcome.

Regarding my two personal Advantage Pro's - no you can't pry them from my hot little hands! One I want them as backups, I'm always collecting computers which need good keyboards. Two, I want them as backups. As in, the ergonomic proof in the TE pudding is how my hands feel six months from now. Maybe these new boards will cause some trouble that only manifests down the road.

EDIT---I don't think I ever defended myself from Architects slam on me. All I've done is aggressively echo the same negativity that most people had:

Was that a 'slam'? I appreciated your return joke, meant to put a nice reply but got sidelined by Christmas.

My intent was just to point out that the 'aggressive negativity' fits the definition of a 'hater'. It's adding nothing new to the conversation, here again you go on a rant against TE. We get it, really! We understand how much you hate their marketing and whatnot, really just get over it, or at least please spare us. Not trying to slam you here, maybe my personal GH mission is to be the TE therapist to the angry masses :kiss:

EDIT: To be fair, I have to give you credit for calling out the good features you like of the actual TE keyboard.

[fossala]

My problem is that they are still lying on their website. I have sent them emails saying this and they are not responding to emails.

[Architect]

My problem is that they are still lying on their website. I have sent them emails saying this and they are not responding to emails.

Yeah, well I've seen that they do respond, but it takes a long time. They just got back to me on a bug report (wake on sleep) I gave them, I think they get a lot of email and Michelle (his wife I assume) has limited time. Maybe they have a baby to add to the fun, who knows.

Just to be clear I also can't stand their marketing and the rollout. They should have taken it to KickStarter instead of going solo. I'm also grateful this keyboard exists at all as it may be the lifesaver I've been waiting for. I don't care about custom keycaps (SACRILEGE!) as I basically spend my professional and personal life on the computer. I'll use anything that allows me to communicate with the computer easier (voice recognition, X-Keys key-board, Griffin knob, etc etc). They could have done much worse and I would have stuck with it for a shot to get the result. Which is why I've tried to be a supportive voice, I wanted a chance to try the damn keyboard!

[hoggy]

I think the keyboard is a good design and they should be applauded for getting it out the door - but now is the time for the company to 'mature' it's public face.

Surely they won't benefit from the lies anymore.  If they want more public interest then they should send out review samples, or even take a leaf out of Maltron's book and hire them out.

[shrap]

Ergonomic keyboard users are probably one of the pickiest customer niches. Everyone wants their perfect layout, no one's hands or preferred layout is the same. Weren't people complaining about lack of key remapping software within one day of receiving the keyboard?

[Input Nirvana]

My Bat-pic? That's no slam, that's just me trying to lure in more geeky-kinky-comic book chicks. I know you think I'm awesome, and I like you too, but posting my 'hook-up' pics is a bit weird.

The slam was much earlier, maybe in a different thread, but no matter, you're entitled, it's the inter-toobs, who really cares? That's why I didn't mention it earlier, it wasn't relevant to counter. It became somewhat marginally relevant with the post or two above about peeps over-critiquing something that they probably need to use before offering the opinions coming out of their pie holes. "It's a piece of ****" and "it's great" verses the more appropriate "It looks like it might be a piece of **** because..." and "it may be awesome because..." Some things are cut and dry, ergonomics, not so much. My critique has been 100% negative about the marketing (we agree which is so lovely), and the communication rollout (again, we are like peas in a pod, nummy!) because it's repugnant and should not be swept under the carpet and forgotten. My critique of the board has been very, very marginal and non-commital because I have not tried it. I've asked as many questions as anybody about certain details because I'm interested and it 'seems' to have many good qualities and 'seems' to have a few bummer compromises, like all other keyboards on the planet. TE, if it continues, will have it's place, but make no mistake, it's no Datahand-killer, and not even a Kinesis-killer although it may fill a similar niche. I don't care about any of these boards as much as I care about what they may be able to do for the people using them. That's the whole point.

Some years ago I would do 5 day, 5 state, 5 office cross-country mega-office building visits for uber-important, high-pressure meetings with AIG (those lovely people). As I walked through the multi-cubes to the management offices I was having small talk about the flight and hotel and said I wasn't comfortable in the hotel bed and had a 'crick' in my back. I saw a man working that had hands that looked like feet, He typed for a living. He mentioned that his hands hurt 24/7 since childhood and typing didn't help. After 4 hours of listening to a  bunch of old, entitled white guys huff and puff, I got to my rental car 11 stories down on the ground, and I cried as I realized how the most simple things in life are what make us happy and satisfied.

Ergonomics relative to health and happiness is an important topic.

You can send the seasonal fruit Harry and David gift basket to my swinging Bat Cave.

[Columnaire]

I made a little forum for TE owners to discuss this keyboard. If any of you would like to contribute your thoughts, I would welcome your reviews and news and opinions. I also posted this on an older thread about the TE, but will also drop this here because this thread is still alive: trulyergonomicfans.logicmasons.com

[Architect]

Ergonomics relative to health and happiness is an important topic.

Agreed. And apologies (even if unnecessary) for getting all hairy. Some weird paranoia was running on this site that I was a secret agent for TE, and I lost track of who was saying what anyhow.

You can send the seasonal fruit Harry and David gift basket to my swinging Bat Cave.

I got that once as a Christmas gift. The last batch went bad within a day, not recommended.

[Input Nirvana]

Agreed. And apologies (even if unnecessary) for getting all hairy. Some weird paranoia was running on this site that I was a secret agent for TE, and I lost track of who was saying what anyhow.



I got that once as a Christmas gift. The last batch went bad within a day, not recommended.

Soooo...you're saying you're NOT a secret agent man?

[video=youtube_share;6iaR3WO71j4]http://youtu.be/6iaR3WO71j4[/video]

But this could be your very cool retro theme song...

[Columnaire]

Ha, ha! I came to Geekhack to find information about my new TE, and to shill for the TE forum I set up, and when I go back and read this whole thread I see you guys already found my TE review, and briefly gossiped about me! I'm honored.

In my review I made a comment that the ? was the only key that switched from one hand to the other. Some of you said this was wrong, so I'm wondering if you could clarify. In normal typing, all the letter and number and punctuation keys are in their normal position, except that the quote key was moved down a row and the question mark key was moved to the left hand. What else is changed? The backslash key? That doesn't count to me because I don't count that as punctuation. I guess the hypen also moved to the left hand; I might have mentioned that, except that I find it much more useful in the upper left, as now I can hit it without glancing.

Anyway I'm typing this now on my TE and I like it very much. The quote and question-mark keys are the hardest changes to get used to, but honestly they aren't very hard at all. I also have trouble remembering not to flick my right hand outward when I want to hit the backspace key, but that too is becoming second nature.

I don't plan to remap any of the keys at this time, although changing the left space bar to something useful is appealing because I exclusively use the right thumb for spaces. One thing I have done is to create a keyboard layout which includes all my programmer symbol keys under my left hand (parens, dots, dashes, brackets, ampersands, etc.), so I can access them using the AltGr key, which is a tip I was given in the comments to my review. Maybe I should map the left space bar to AltGr; then I could hit left thumb + left finger keys to get all my programmer symbols.

So thanks again, y'all, for inviting me to GH -- I wish someone would have left a comment on my review for me to come here! I would have found you all earlier! I've long been an input enthusiast (Fingerworks, AlphaGrip, assorted ergos) and this forum will be a new home for me.

[Architect]

Soooo...you're saying you're NOT a secret agent man?

I can neither confirm, nor deny that statement.

In my review I made a comment that the ? was the only key that switched from one hand to the other. Some of you said this was wrong, so I'm wondering if you could clarify.

No it's switched, and keeps buggering me. I'd say I'm used to it more or less but I still pause before hitting the right key for question mark, and sometimes still do the other

[Rajagra]

I'm settling in nicely with this keyboard. For "normal" typing it really doesn't feel like a wacky ergo board. I've now learned where the Shifts are, and the '/- keys aren't that hard to remember. For me, the backspace key is the hardest - I normally have CapsLock remapped to backspace, and that's so easy to hit I almost welcomed mistakes. I may start using my thumb for BS instead of my index finger on the TE.

I'm surprised there aren't more comments on the size, e.g. compared to a Happy Hacking keyboard:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 36110[/ATTACH]
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 36111[/ATTACH]

P.S. I just noticed that when you take off the wrist rest 3 of the screws are longer than the others! If you undo yours, make a note of where they go. I suspect they are the 3 top holes where you screw into the board (all others screw the 2 halves of the rest together.)

[dotemacs]

Hello,

discovered this forum a few weeks ago. It's so exciting to see that there are other people who are enthusiastic about keyboards as much (if not more) than me.

I stumbled upon Truly Ergonomic keyboard via some blog post and started to google for a review, which brought me back here  

Reading this thread, I can see there was some pre-order drama with the keyboards. I signed up on their site already and emailed them as well, since I want to buy it. What I'm after is the following: when did you place your order and when did you receive it?

I'm already using Kinesis and I do find that it helps, but I dislike some of the features. This Truly Ergonomic looks like it might be an improvement on them. The main reason for having a good keyboard is because I use it to drive my editor, Emacs. Any of you who already received it use Emacs at all and if you are what are you thoughts?

Thanks for your time

[Architect]

Reading this thread, I can see there was some pre-order drama with the keyboards. I signed up on their site already and emailed them as well, since I want to buy it. What I'm after is the following: when did you place your order and when did you receive it?

Long drama with the first order. The next one will probably be from actual stock.

I'm already using Kinesis and I do find that it helps, but I dislike some of the features. This Truly Ergonomic looks like it might be an improvement on them. The main reason for having a good keyboard is because I use it to drive my editor, Emacs. Any of you who already received it use Emacs at all and if you are what are you thoughts?

Yes it works quite well, depending on what OS you are using it (Mac, Linux or OS X). When the reprogramming software is released it will work better, as on my 109's I can map the control key to the bottom corner keys, for dual symmetric key modifier keys blocks on both hands.

One of my complaints about the Kinesis is that you can really only have Control key on one hand. I tried remapping it once but the board wedged up and had to be sent back to the factory. Maybe related, may be not, dunno.

[Architect]

P.S. I just noticed that when you take off the wrist rest 3 of the screws are longer than the others! If you undo yours, make a note of where they go. I suspect they are the 3 top holes where you screw into the board (all others screw the 2 halves of the rest together.)

Thanks for that! I noticed that the keyboard palm rest didn't go back together as quite well as it was when I got it. On disassembly those screws were all over the place.

How are the arrow keys working out for you? I'm still practicing at them.

So here I am back with the palm rest less temporarily, and I have to say this is pretty darn nice on second thought. Mucho compact keyboard as you point out, this is the most compact keyboard I've used other than a notebook style keyboard. A cool feature is that the Apple trackpad butts up and is lined up perfectly against the side of the keyboard, and without the palm rest the trackpad fits perfectly. The hand just swings out to the 'pad effortlessly. Hmmm, new ergonomic vistas are opening up here ...

[Columnaire]

dotemacs: I like many others ordered my keyboard way back in, oh gosh, maybe September 2010, and just received it earlier this month. But of course, if you order today you would receive yours much sooner. I don't know their ship schedule, but at this point it should only be a matter of actually building another unit, instead of designing and prototyping it.

[Gerk]

I ordered quite a bit before that, I don't remember how long but I think it was mid 2010 or so and got it the same time as everyone else did.  I'd honestly suggest not pre-ordering with these folks as it was promise after promise that they didn't hit.  Once they have stock I think it should be fine though, assuming they will have stock at some point.

I am going to have to try taking off the wrist rest off of mine as well, haven't done this yet but it sounds like a good combination.  I love how low this keyboard is to the desk as well, nothing else is such a low profile.

[Keymonger]

Man they had such a long time to develop that firmware reprogram software. My keyboard is picking up dust in the meantime. I guess I should develop a layout but I need to know what the possibilities are first.

[Architect]

Man they had such a long time to develop that firmware reprogram software. My keyboard is picking up dust in the meantime. I guess I should develop a layout but I need to know what the possibilities are first.

No way. Releasing an application is a huge effort, and if its a one man shop as it appears to be he probably just used what came from the chip manufacturer that was hacked together to flash the initial firmware. To turn it into something that Joe can use will take a lot of time, and at this point I'd expect he's going to be cautious and release only when it's ready. In other words, I don't doubt it will release but don't hold your breath.

[Keymonger]

This dude/These people had at least a year... that's more than enough to program a simple little application to flash the firmware.

[Gerk]

This dude/These people had at least a year... that's more than enough to program a simple little application to flash the firmware.

I dunno, there seemed to be changes in the board right up to the wire, so the initial firmware was probably not finalized until very recently and it doesn't make sense to push forward with the actual remapping software until you have the final board in hand.  The addition of DIP switches and changing the placement of some keys happened right as they were manufacturing ... while I am happily awaiting the software I think that it's not unreasonable that it's not yet ready given these circumstances.

[sordna]

One of my complaints about the Kinesis is that you can really only have Control key on one hand.

Hey stop it! I have 2 controls on all my Kinesis boards. You said you have multiple Kinesis boards, so even if one of them was broken I am pretty sure you are perfectly able to remap all the others so you have 2 controls. You've been posting good info recently, please don't start the FUD against Kinesis (which TE perceives as the closest competitor judging  from their website) all over again, it's OBVIOUS false crap like that has made people call you a TE shill. Promoting TE is ok, but falsely accusing a competing product is unethical. The Kinesis remaps all keys fine, any Kinesis owner will tell you this, and if you own Kinesis keyboards you know this very well.

[Input Nirvana]

It's very important to not say incorrect information on the forum, I believe the statement in question should edited in good faith.

[Lanx]

don't the kinesis usb ones replace left ctrl and right alt with windows key? (i don't have usb one) of course i'm sure these could be remapped.

[fossala]

don't the kinesis usb ones replace left ctrl and right alt with windows key? (i don't have usb one) of course i'm sure these could be remapped.

I have a UK model (kinesis) and I have 2 x control and 2 x alts (one is "alt gr").

[hoggy]

I have a USB Kinesis with two control keys - didn't come with the windows key - but I believe some versions came with a set of option buttons and a key puller.

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 36189[/ATTACH]
The image above is from their website http://www.kinesis-ergo.com

[Gerk]

It's very important to not say incorrect information on the forum, I believe the statement in question should edited in good faith.

Then you Kinesis fans should also go back and find all the posts saying that the TE is not as ergonomic as the Kinesis without ever having tried one and fix those too

[Gerk]

Hey stop it! I have 2 controls on all my Kinesis boards. You said you have multiple Kinesis boards, so even if one of them was broken I am pretty sure you are perfectly able to remap all the others so you have 2 controls. You've been posting good info recently, please don't start the FUD against Kinesis (which TE perceives as the closest competitor judging  from their website) all over again, it's OBVIOUS false crap like that has made people call you a TE shill. Promoting TE is ok, but falsely accusing a competing product is unethical. The Kinesis remaps all keys fine, any Kinesis owner will tell you this, and if you own Kinesis keyboards you know this very well.

I have to chime in on this one ... My Kinesis had only one in default Mac config and according to the keycap printing. Just because you can remap and modify doesn't mean much. The default config and the keycap printing show one control key on recent models.

Your logic could also be twisted to say just about anything, like "my keyboard has 14 delete keys" which it obviously doesn't ... But you could change it to that config if you chose to.

[hoggy]

Hell, we aren't children here.  A lot of us have enough experience to work out informed decisions (or if you prefer - educated guesses) on this subject.  Perhaps some of us can be more informed than others.    

I use geekhack for entertainment as well as information, and the vast majority of users do the same.  I'm opting to play nice rather than speak the first thing that comes to mind.

I'm not your dad, your boss, or even someone you've ever met - you don't have to listen to me.

[Input Nirvana]

Gerk, I support your statements in their entirety, but not in context. I understand your point as well. What we are dealing with here, is a bad faith statement, pure and simple. And, it's WAAYYY after the fact (timing wise) where all of us have been educated, corrected, cautioned, chided and all agreed upon. We're all basically ready to drink a coldie and blaze a fatty while tossing dollars at a strip club. What I'm saying is that we are past the mono vision some of have been spouting off with and it's poor form to regress.

I stand by my "edit" statement.

Lemme know when we're hitting the town

[wrtcedar]

But of course, if you order today you would receive yours much sooner.

Maybe. I got no response when I sent e-mail asking about that earlier this month. I'd expected at least some boilerplate on future availability and cost. Or maybe this is part of the "one man shop" syndrome.

[Input Nirvana]

It gives you an idea of the support you won't get.

[sordna]

I have to chime in on this one ... My Kinesis had only one in default Mac config and according to the keycap printing. Just because you can remap and modify doesn't mean much. The default config and the keycap printing show one control key on recent models.

Your logic could also be twisted to say just about anything, like "my keyboard has 14 delete keys" which it obviously doesn't ... But you could change it to that config if you chose to.

You missed the point. Architect said that the Kinesis can ONLY have 1 control which is not true. He also said that he tried remapping a 2nd control once and it "bricked" the keyboard. He is basically claiming the remapping feature on the Kinesis does not work or is not reliable which is the rubbish and FUD I'm referring to.
It's like: the TE remapping software is not ready, so let's bash the Kinesis awesome remapping feature with false accusations.

[Rajagra]

How are the arrow keys working out for you? I'm still practicing at them.

I don't use them heavily, and in any case I can replicate them using my AutoHotkey script.
But I've noticed it's very easy to slide the thumbs to the End and left arrow keys, and adjust from there.

[Gerk]

Gerk, I support your statements in their entirety, but not in context. I understand your point as well. What we are dealing with here, is a bad faith statement, pure and simple. And, it's WAAYYY after the fact (timing wise) where all of us have been educated, corrected, cautioned, chided and all agreed upon. We're all basically ready to drink a coldie and blaze a fatty while tossing dollars at a strip club. What I'm saying is that we are past the mono vision some of have been spouting off with and it's poor form to regress.

I stand by my "edit" statement.

Lemme know when we're hitting the town

Fair enough. I'll be down your way at some point this year and will take you up on that offer.

[Input Nirvana]

Good times brotha!

[Inf3rn0_44]

Wait, is this board NKRO or 6KRO or other?

[Architect]

You missed the point. Architect said that the Kinesis can ONLY have 1 control which is not true. He also said that he tried remapping a 2nd control once and it "bricked" the keyboard. He is basically claiming the remapping feature on the Kinesis does not work or is not reliable which is the rubbish and FUD I'm referring to.
It's like: the TE remapping software is not ready, so let's bash the Kinesis awesome remapping feature with false accusations.

Edit: I'm getting really sick of this.

Just for the record

By default the kinesis mac mode gives you one control, as verified in a discussion I had once about the issue with a company representative

I was not saying or at least meaning to say anything different, which doesn't logically follow anyhow given what I did

On one occasion I remapped control keys, and after that the board was still usable but could not be reprogrammed again

Puzzled, the company RMA'd the board for a fee and fixed it

Just so you don't try and claim I'm slamming Kinesis, I'll say again what I've said elsewhere which is that the board has saved my life over the last few decades. Yes, it's sort of a love/hate relationship. You know how that goes, right? You use something for so long you know all it's flaws and strengths, right?

Since we're back to the conspiracy s***, can you prove that you are not an agent for Kinesis?

Why don't you just put me in your ignore file? Or maybe better I'll just leave permanently, I'm getting really tired of this, what a joke.

[sordna]

I don't believe you have multiple Kinesis boards for 15 years and are afraid to remap a single key. I typically remap more than 10 keys on all my Kinesis boards, the old PS/2 and the USB ones, and most people do.
And you made a very false general statement:

you can really only have Control key on one hand

That's a total lie, you can remap and have 10 control keys on the keyboard you want.

And in another thread a person asked how to remap something and you "pitched in" saying don't remap the Kinesis or it will get bricked. Total FUD.
The moderator, iMav, owns a Kinesis board, and many people here do, so your bashing won't get you anywhere, but I guess you're targeting people that don't yet own a Kinesis.