Alps Appreciation Thread

[Hypersphere]

I could use some advice on how best to go about cleaning and repairing Alps switches.

Today I was testing a keycap on my recently refurbished Northgate Omnikey 101 with SKCM white Alps. I had put a "D" cap from an IBM 5140 on the D key, and then replaced it with the stock D cap. After doing this, the D key failed to register. All other keys registered just fine.

I pulled the cap and replaced it again to be sure it was seated properly. It still failed to register.

I then opened the switch, blew it out with canned air, put it back together, and still no joy.

Opened the switch again, cleaned the switch plate as best I could with 70% isopropyl alcohol, checked to be sure that the click leaf was not damaged in some way, reassembled, still no luck.

Opened the switch again and found that if I gently pushed the leaf on the switch plate toward the rear of the switch with a plastic spudger, the key would register. So I supposed that the problem was within the switch and not due to a broken PCB trace or bad solder joint. I tried gently pulling the leaf on the switch plate toward the front of the switch in an attempt to adjust the springiness, but the reassembled switch would still not register.

Finally, I replaced the slider, spring, and click leaf with the corresponding parts from a Matias Click switch and reassembled. Now the key registers. I am glad that this worked, but I do not know why it worked. Thoughts and suggestions welcome!

[Mattr567]

Can anyone give a side-be-side sound comparison of a stock AT101 versus an orange-modded AT101/

My stockish AT101 is currently in pieces (because I harvested its keycaps and weight plate for this project) but if I ever put it back together I could record one. That being said, I think the difference in sound would be rather marginal since, for me, it's mostly a key feel thing. If I remember correctly they sound more or less identical except that I'm less prone to bottoming out on my orange-modded one. Others might have a different opinion here but when it comes to tactile switches sound really isn't high on my priorities list.

An interesting tidbit is that I did put one Blue Alps switch in this build (along with a SKCL Green in the Pause/Break/PrintScr/ScrollLck cluster to serve as a mini "switch tester") and I can say that Blue Alps really sound nice in this chassis. They have a nice, deep click and they reverberate with the entire chassis causing a satisfying "ping." It kind of makes me wish that I built this board with Blue Alps

Hmm. Don't give me any ideas

I still have all of those taobao SKCM Blues. But I figure it's better to stay Orange since I have the Packard.

Do want a full size linear board though. Will find a chassis eventually.

[Wingpad]

Hmm. Don't give me any ideas

I still have all of those taobao SKCM Blues. But I figure it's better to stay Orange since I have the Packard.

Do want a full size linear board though. Will find a chassis eventually.

How are the restoration efforts coming along? I haven't had a chance to work on mine recently, unfortunately...

I dunno' if I would bother making a custom, full-sized linear Alps board, though, especially when the Zenith boards are so nice in the first place. What've you been considering?

[chyros]

Can anyone give a side-be-side sound comparison of a stock AT101 versus an orange-modded AT101/

My stockish AT101 is currently in pieces (because I harvested its keycaps and weight plate for this project) but if I ever put it back together I could record one. That being said, I think the difference in sound would be rather marginal since, for me, it's mostly a key feel thing.

I'm asking since the Dell AT101W and AEK have a very different typing sound, but I think the chassis are for a significant part to blame for that. I think it'd be quite interesting to hear the difference between the two switches in an identical chassis.

[Mattr567]

Hmm. Don't give me any ideas

I still have all of those taobao SKCM Blues. But I figure it's better to stay Orange since I have the Packard.

Do want a full size linear board though. Will find a chassis eventually.

How are the restoration efforts coming along? I haven't had a chance to work on mine recently, unfortunately...

I dunno' if I would bother making a custom, full-sized linear Alps board, though, especially when the Zenith boards are so nice in the first place. What've you been considering?

I've haven't done any for a little while. Got busy. Have about 40 good and ready to go Blues and 3-4 that need to be redone b/c of too much lube etc. The Greens are just sitting since their top housings are currently useless. Will try some denture tabs to fix them up, warm soapy water soak didn't take away the roughness.

Not exactly full size but something like a Siig Minitouch would be awesome. I have my frankenstein V60 w/ Greens off my old Zenith but its too small for daily use. The Siig has arrow key's and F key's. I found a NIB one on clist in New Jersey but the guy is pickup only. Just emailed him back stating my situation (that I live across the country lol) Hopefully that goes well.

Otherwise I am going to retry to get a 5140 off my local clist. This guy that lives 5min away from me has two and one of them is broken. His prices are sky high however but its been multiple month's since I contacted him so maybe he will go down on his price. His old lowest price was $70 for the broken one, $40 I think is fair. He knows my email address from before so that won't work but he recently put in a phone number for contact so ill use that 

[E3E]

You might think it looks a little funky, but I decided to put on some uniform/non-sculpted cylindrical caps that I got from itzmeluigi in a trade. They're Chinese PBT key caps. They are similar to some caps I got off of Sharp PA-1000H typewriters in that they have no sculpt, but these are indeed PBT (the Sharp had ABS caps), which is really nice.

I slapped them onto the Orion because it has a rather steep incline and I thought the uniform cylindrical caps would be at home on the board. They feel amazing. Much nicer than the AT101 caps I had on before, to be honest.

The way my fingers can slide between keys and rows just makes the overall experience very smooth. They're about as tall as the ASDF row of standard Alps profile key caps.

Had to be crafty with some of the key placement. Used the number pad keys for the function row, and I also used some Acer key caps for the mods that these Chinese sets did not cover. I think it all blended together quite well.

[Hypersphere]

@E3E: Looks good. Exotic!

I'm typing this on my non-ADB NeXT keyboard. Just got it up and running today with Hasu's converter. I've mapped the keyboard to an HHKB-like layout (of course!). Everthing just works! Hasu is a genius, as everyone here knows.

Currently, I have the converter on the attached cable. Later on, I might put the converter inside the case and install a flush-mount connector.

The one I have is the ANSI version with undamped cream Alps. It has a pleasant tactile feel. I might swap the slider on the spacebar with one from a Matias Quiet switch. The doubleshot ABS caps would look nice if they were new, but they have become shiny in a non-uniform way, so I think I will replace at least the alpha keys with dye-sub PBT. Allthough I would prefer not to have Italic font on the board, I'll probably use caps from a Granite SGI  so that the alpha keys and NumPad keys will have a consistent look.

Unfortunately, the mods have also picked up inconsistent shine, so I might replace these as well. This might take two weeks or so, as I am waiting for some Alps caps to arrive.

When I get the board pulled together, I will post some pics, perhaps in a separate brief review.

[WarCommand]

E3E- that looks so good. Which switches are in there?

[E3E]

E3E- that looks so good. Which switches are in there?

Thanks. It feels so much better on a board with a steep angle like the Orion. I decided to keep Alps SKCM Blue in the board. I was gonna swap them out for the SKCM Greens, but blue Alps in an aluminum TKL is just really the classic unbeatable combo.

@E3E: Looks good. Exotic!

I'm typing this on my non-ADB NeXT keyboard. Just got it up and running today with Hasu's converter. I've mapped the keyboard to an HHKB-like layout (of course!). Everthing just works! Hasu is a genius, as everyone here knows.

Currently, I have the converter on the attached cable. Later on, I might put the converter inside the case and install a flush-mount connector.

The one I have is the ANSI version with undamped cream Alps. It has a pleasant tactile feel. I might swap the slider on the spacebar with one from a Matias Quiet switch. The doubleshot ABS caps would look nice if they were new, but they have become shiny in a non-uniform way, so I think I will replace at least the alpha keys with dye-sub PBT. Allthough I would prefer not to have Italic font on the board, I'll probably use caps from a Granite SGI  so that the alpha keys and NumPad keys will have a consistent look.

Unfortunately, the mods have also picked up inconsistent shine, so I might replace these as well. This might take two weeks or so, as I am waiting for some Alps caps to arrive.

When I get the board pulled together, I will post some pics, perhaps in a separate brief review.

Thank you! So many dyesub colors. It's pretty charming.

Oh very nice. What do you think of the SKCM Creams compared to SKCM Blues and the SKCM Whites you fancied in your Omnikey? How do they stack up?

My NeXT was in great shape, but I paid about $20 more for his "nice" condition ones just to be safe. No shine there. Did yours come with shine or did your use cause the shine on the keys already? They are nice caps for what they are. Really the only WoB Alps Electric doubleshots that have been documented so far. It's a shame that the mods use stabs mounted in that strange orientation.

[klennkellon]

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You might think it looks a little funky, but I decided to put on some uniform/non-sculpted cylindrical caps that I got from itzmeluigi in a trade. They're Chinese PBT key caps. They are similar to some caps I got off of Sharp PA-1000H typewriters in that they have no sculpt, but these are indeed PBT (the Sharp had ABS caps), which is really nice.

I slapped them onto the Orion because it has a rather steep incline and I thought the uniform cylindrical caps would be at home on the board. They feel amazing. Much nicer than the AT101 caps I had on before, to be honest.

The way my fingers can slide between keys and rows just makes the overall experience very smooth. They're about as tall as the ASDF row of standard Alps profile key caps.

Had to be crafty with some of the key placement. Used the number pad keys for the function row, and I also used some Acer key caps for the mods that these Chinese sets did not cover. I think it all blended together quite well.

MY PRECIOUS

[Mattr567]

After a "new" board for a SKCL Green swap. It rhymes with Bang and you've seen it before

[E3E]

After a "new" board for a SKCL Green swap. It rhymes with Bang and you've seen it before

Those Chang boards really are something though. 

[Mattr567]

After a "new" board for a SKCL Green swap. It rhymes with Bang and you've seen it before

Those Chang boards really are something though. 

Hah. It's a Wang. That same one I tried to get back in July but the guy went dark on me. He reposted it. Perfect for a SKCL Green swap. Either i'm smart or a Alps marauder who makes some freaky Alps Frankenstein stuff

Orange in an SGI, Green in Wang? What is this sorcery?! Could of just bought a ZKB-2 and a AEK. All I know is that my solder tip is ****ing destroyed. Its almost a stub at this point. The tip part of the tip is holding on by a thread. Looks like a mouse took a huge bite out of the side )

[E3E]

After a "new" board for a SKCL Green swap. It rhymes with Bang and you've seen it before

Those Chang boards really are something though. 

Hah. It's a Wang. That same one I tried to get back in July but the guy went dark on me. He reposted it. Perfect for a SKCL Green swap. Either i'm smart or a Alps marauder who makes some freaky Alps Frankenstein stuff

Orange in an SGI, Green in Wang? What is this sorcery?! Could of just bought a ZKB-2 and a AEK. All I know is that my solder tip is ****ing destroyed. Its almost a stub at this point. The tip part of the tip is holding on by a thread. Looks like a mouse took a huge bite out of the side )

I had that happen with my first iron, some cheapo Weller. The tip got dirty and just kinda unsightly, so I sanded it to a fine tip again, which just so happened to be copper, to my surprise, and the solder ended up eating away at it and it got down to a nub.

I've not had any tips on my workstation (some chinese little thing) iron go bad yet, but I always make sure to clean mine with a brass sponge and tip tinner when I'm done and while I'm working as well.

[chyros]

The tip of my soldering iron is basically a screwdriver xD .

[fohat.digs]

my first iron, some cheapo Weller. The tip got dirty and just kinda unsightly, so I sanded it to a fine tip again, which just so happened to be copper, to my surprise, and the solder ended up eating away at it and it got down to a nub.

I still use my 1970s cheap-o Weller, I can't believe that it still works but it is nice and lightweight.

I regularly file the tip into a wedge when it gets gnarly, and can do that several times before I have to throw it away.

[Hypersphere]

@E3E: It's too early to tell how the undamped cream Alps in the NeXT compare to the white Alps in my Omni 101 or the blue Alps in my LE DC-2014 or LE DC-3014 (just received the DC-3014 yesterday). It's something of an Apples vs Oranges comparison (or NeXTarines and Cream, etc.) because of the different cases in which the switches are mounted. However, my first impression is that the restored Omni 101 is going to be hard to beat.

I was somewhat disappointed in the condition of my NeXT keyboard -- the keycaps have a lot of shine. In addition, there is something strange about the plastic used for the case -- I've cleaned it with detergent, but when I wipe it down with 70% isopropyl alcohol, the wipes keep picking up something black from the case. It seems that whatever method was used for coloring the plastic is soluble in isopropyl alcohol. The plastic is also rather soft. I am careful about not stripping screw threads, but I managed to strip the threads on the two mounting posts at the rear center of the case -- I am going to try putting in some very thin screw anchors. You also have to be careful aligning the rubber gasket when reassembling the case.

Imperfections aside, I like the form factor of the NeXT board and the tactility of the undamped cream Alps switches. However, the NeXT board does not have the solid sound and feel of the Northgate.

[pchatterjee]

I like the alps in my AEKII (m3501) -- anyone know one can get a hold of these types alps or the ones in the AEK Is?  Was thinking of getting the new glorious keyboard and sticking these in?

[Mattr567]

Looking through some old images I forgot how clean my NeXT was. Easiest restro ever lol )

My hardest would be the China boards (obviously) and the FK-3001 takes the cake otherwise. The SGI, Packard and Compaq all were very similar.
How I found it. Compressed air took all that away instantly

[Hypersphere]

@Mattr567: You really lucked out on that NeXT board! I have two with the small Return and undamped cream Alps and one with the reverse-L Return and black Alps. All three were fairly dirty and had smudged cases and uneven shine on the caps. I've cleaned one of the cream Alps models, and I am in the process of putting on the best caps of the three for all keys except I am using caps from a Granite SGI for the alphas, number row, and numbers on the NumPad.

[Mattr567]

HUGE thanks to Hypersphere for reprogramming the NeXT TMK software to my liking!
Here's the layout. Much more conventional with some extra stuff thrown in. If you want the hex file PM me. Another advantage of this is that for small enter Cream boards it takes advantage of the extra backslash key that the L enter doesn't have. Default is a dummy.


Also now the LED's are used for caps!

[Hypersphere]

@Mattr567: Thanks for the nod, but all the credit goes to Hasu for producing the physical device, writing the code, and recently helping me with programming my NeXT keyboard. I simply transferred what I got from Hasu.

[Mattr567]

Of course. Without him we'd all be screwed.

The shout out was mainly that you took the time to help someone that you've never met before on the internet reprogram their keyboard to their liking for free. With multiple emails back and fourth.

The keyboard community is awesome one

[waqar]

What color are the switches? They feel dampened.

[chyros]

What color are the switches? They feel dampened.

Salmon. Tactile non-damped.

[waqar]

What color are the switches? They feel dampened.

Salmon. Tactile non-damped.

Thanks

[Mattr567]

Soaked the SKCL Green top housings using denture tabs in hot water and at first it didn't make much of a difference. But after rubbing the slider wells with a toothpick there was a noticeable difference. I think the denture tabs have weakened the crud on the slider wells. So now I need a way to aggressively remove it.
Here's what I am talking about. You can see the white stuff in the slider well. Thoughts?

[chyros]

Hm. Does it dissolve in acid?

[Hypersphere]

I second Chyros' suggestion of trying acid. To be more specific, try using some vinegar.

[chyros]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Vinegar and a cotton bud or something to scrub.

[Hypersphere]

Just wanted to be sure he didn't use "molecular acid", although it would be problematic to find a bottle of the stuff.

[Mattr567]

Huh, thats a good idea. Will give it a try.

[Dokyun]

Guess i'm pretty done with my bigfoot.

I originally finished this board about 5 years ago with a black and white scheme and proceeded to immediately snap the stem on the caps lock key. These days I would've repaired it but back then we knew far less about ALPS (complicated and simple was all they were known by, none of this SKCM or different color rubbish!), and keyboard modification in general barely existed. I tried to "fix" the black ALPS at the time too by transporting in the click leafs from a gutted white ALPS board but it didn't do much at all. Having ruined the scheme and not very satisfied with the feel of it, I stuck it in a closet and mostly forgot it existed for a few years save for the few times I thought about selling it for space until I started lurking around you bad influences again, realizing that these days it could definitely be fixed. Here's how it looks now:



The caps lock key is now dyed red, along with the escape and num lock to balance out the color. I originally tried using black idye on a different caps lock but as it turns out Dell's idea of 'black' is actually more of a cool black closer to dark blue; matching colors wasn't gonna happen unless Idye starts selling dye in Pantone shades. The red caps lock makes sense at least, for as we all know Caps Lock is cruise control for cool. The original black alps were ejected and replaced with Matias clicks. Admittedly they're not as nice as SKCM White but the lighter articulation balances it out for me. I've none around here at the moment for a direct comparison, but I think they sound a lot better in this case than they do any of Matias' own boards.

At the moment I have caps from 4 different keyboards on here, I don't think I'll bother with the sisyphean task of trying to color match all the white ones. That's just ALPS life.

[chyros]

Now THAT looks very nice. Very tasteful, I like how you've gone with actual AT101 caps, too . I've always liked the font on most Alps boards (is it Helvetica?). Great job .

[Mattr567]

Dammit. The guy with the Wang 725-3770 won't ship And i'm guessing no one here is in the Houston area.

[Mattr567]

The SKCL tops are soaking in vinegar right now. I tried to use a swab to clean one and it didn't make a huge difference until I took a dry toothpick to it. The crap started coming right off with it after the limited vinegar exposure. A good sign

[Hypersphere]

@Dokyun: That Dell looks nice. Is it the model with the black case, or did you paint a standard Dell AT101W black? For me, the red CapsLock would have to be Ctrl.

@Mattr567: Glad the vinegar is doing its work. If you are going to do much of this sort of thing, consider getting an ultrasonic cleaning bath. Upon a recommendation from XMIT, I got an iSonic P4820-WPB through Amazon for under $90 shipped. Thus far, I've tried it out on switch parts and keycaps, and it works great.

[Mattr567]

So the vinegar and denture tab bath's made a considerable difference, but it's still not there. At this point is it just bad plastic? Where do I go from here?
Here is an example of a rough spot in a slider well. The two 'white' lines.

[Mattr567]

So as an update I managed to get a couple switch tops in basically perfect shape, My problem is not solved however. Picking through the bag trying to find the best of the best and then taking a toothpick to them isn't solving the overall issue at hand. Not all the switchtops are equally bad so to speak.

So now I need a way to restore the plastic itself. I was thinking of soaking them in batches in hot water and trying to smooth them out with a piece of card or a toothpick while still hot.

Other ideas?

[Wingpad]

@Mattr567: Glad the vinegar is doing its work. If you are going to do much of this sort of thing, consider getting an ultrasonic cleaning bath. Upon a recommendation from XMIT, I got an iSonic P4820-WPB through Amazon for under $90 shipped. Thus far, I've tried it out on switch parts and keycaps, and it works great.

I tried using a cheap ultrasonic cleaner to clean my TaoBao Blue ALPS and it didn't really make a difference at all. I think I just need to break down and buy a nice one like that at some point

[alh84001]

I also need some help with restoring switches. I have some SKCM Whites that don't register, although they are assembled properly and feel normal. When I open the switch and manually press the dot in the contact leaf, it registers fine. Does anyone have experience with this? Is it a worn out top housing? Or is there maybe something wrong with contact leaf? In any case, did anyone ever manage to recover switches from this state?

[Mattr567]

I also need some help with restoring switches. I have some SKCM Whites that don't register, although they are assembled properly and feel normal. When I open the switch and manually press the dot in the contact leaf, it registers fine. Does anyone have experience with this? Is it a worn out top housing? Or is there maybe something wrong with contact leaf? In any case, did anyone ever manage to recover switches from this state?

Yes actually. I had this happen once on my Parkard. I bent the little hammer/dot on the contact leaf back a bit and then blew a ton of air through it with compressed air. Fixed it right up.

[Hypersphere]

@alh84001: I am having a similar problem with a couple of Alps-switch keyboards. On one of them, it seems I have corrected the issue by cleaning and lubing the switches. Some people have recommended cleaning or replacing the contact leaf. If the problem is still not adequately addressed, I suppose the next step might be replacing the entire switch.

[alh84001]

Thanks for sharing your experience, guys. The switches were extremely dirty to start with, and there is still some dirt in them on the bottom of the inside of the bottom housing, even after cleaning them with q-tip soaked in isopropanol (I may try vinegar as well), so I wouldn't be surprised if there is dirt on the switch plate as well.

@Mattr567 can you clarify for me "bent the little hammer/dot on the contact leaf back a bit". I translate this in my head as pulling the contact leaf out a bit, blowing air between contact leaf and switch plate, and then let it settle back. Am I reading this right?

[Mattr567]

Thanks for sharing your experience, guys. The switches were extremely dirty to start with, and there is still some dirt in them on the bottom of the inside of the bottom housing, even after cleaning them with q-tip soaked in isopropanol (I may try vinegar as well), so I wouldn't be surprised if there is dirt on the switch plate as well.

@Mattr567 can you clarify for me "bent the little hammer/dot on the contact leaf back a bit". I translate this in my head as pulling the contact leaf out a bit, blowing air between contact leaf and switch plate, and then let it settle back. Am I reading this right?

Oh, now I know what you mean by dot. You have to remove the contact leaf entirely and use a toothpick or something to bend the little hammer in the center away from the assembly a bit. Don't break it off. Then blow dust into the hammer/behind it.

[chyros]

So the vinegar and denture tab bath's made a considerable difference, but it's still not there. At this point is it just bad plastic? Where do I go from here?
Here is an example of a rough spot in a slider well. The two 'white' lines.

Show Image

Wait, did you add denture tabs to the vinegar? Oo

[Mattr567]

So the vinegar and denture tab bath's made a considerable difference, but it's still not there. At this point is it just bad plastic? Where do I go from here?
Here is an example of a rough spot in a slider well. The two 'white' lines.

Show Image

Wait, did you add denture tabs to the vinegar? Oo

No. I just mentioned them both since combined they made a big difference. That doesn't sound like a terrible idea imao :))

[Dokyun]

Now THAT looks very nice. Very tasteful, I like how you've gone with actual AT101 caps, too . I've always liked the font on most Alps boards (is it Helvetica?). Great job .

Thanks! Most of the alphas are actually from an SK-6000 ergo keyboard - which is also made by Siltek so they almost certainly came off the exact same tooling. The backslash and spacebar are from an actual white AT101 though, I'm not sure if those are more cream colored in comparison naturally or if they've just in the beginning stages of yellowing.

@Dokyun: That Dell looks nice. Is it the model with the black case, or did you paint a standard Dell AT101W black? For me, the red CapsLock would have to be Ctrl.

It's the black one. If I hadn't oafishly thrown away the old caps lock key when it broke I would've just kept the whole thing black and white. Ctrl instead of caps lock would be more balanced I agree, but that key hasn't broken yet I actually dyed a scroll lock key  as well to give the false allusion to there being some significance to the lock keys, but I feel adding any more than 3 red keys and the LEDs starts to make the color harmony more analogous with red instead of using it as a compliment...making it properly analogous would require dying a lot more caps and wouldn't look as good anyways.

[E3E]

Now THAT looks very nice. Very tasteful, I like how you've gone with actual AT101 caps, too . I've always liked the font on most Alps boards (is it Helvetica?). Great job .

Thanks! Most of the alphas are actually from an SK-6000 ergo keyboard - which is also made by Siltek so they almost certainly came off the exact same tooling. The backslash and spacebar are from an actual white AT101 though, I'm not sure if those are more cream colored in comparison naturally or if they've just in the beginning stages of yellowing.

@Dokyun: That Dell looks nice. Is it the model with the black case, or did you paint a standard Dell AT101W black? For me, the red CapsLock would have to be Ctrl.

It's the black one. If I hadn't oafishly thrown away the old caps lock key when it broke I would've just kept the whole thing black and white. Ctrl instead of caps lock would be more balanced I agree, but that key hasn't broken yet I actually dyed a scroll lock key  as well to give the false allusion to there being some significance to the lock keys, but I feel adding any more than 3 red keys and the LEDs starts to make the color harmony more analogous with red instead of using it as a compliment...making it properly analogous would require dying a lot more caps and wouldn't look as good anyways.

I was meaning to ask if the dyed keys were PBT or not. Were they actually ABS, and if so, what was your method for dyeing those? I dyed an ABS space bar once with RIT Dyemore, which was meant to be able to dye a wide variety of plastics, but it took a lot of work and the color consistency of Dyemore sucked. I'd sometimes get grey blacks, or brownish blacks, or blue blacks. It might've been due to the plastic though.

I tried using grey to dye an AEK cap as a test, and it came out yellowish brown. xP

[Dokyun]

They're ABS. I used iDye Poly and a handheld strainer, dipping them into...I'd say slightly under a boil water for a few seconds at a time, pulling them out before they had a chance to begin warping. With ABS it seems the first dunk into the mixture is the most important, it saturates into the plastic predominantly on that pass I think. Subsequent dunks are mostly to make it more vibrant and hope any imperfections are corrected. They need to be squeaky clean as well, any oils or dirt on them will show up pretty clearly...I used my bare hands to drop them in after I cleaned them but I think in the future I'd probably use gloves. Overall the whole process only took a few minutes, it only takes a few plunges to get to the point of diminishing returns.

Supposedly RIT changed the formula of dyemore recently and it's no longer viable for dying caps, wonder if that's what happened to you? Grey on grey should never produce yellowish brown