Alps Appreciation Thread

[PollandAkuma]

Quick question, can matias clicky and quiet click be modded to be linears? I was thinking about getting Matias Linears and Sprit's springs, but if I can just take out the leafs I could just use a 60g linear

[mike52787]

Yeah, but they wont be as good as classic linears like SKCL green

[mike52787]

Just unpacked my pingmaster, What an experience. Mattr wasnt kidding, its so cool to unbox a NIB product from 25+ years ago.

I always get Mike and Matt confused.  you sure you didn't just get a second one 

Haha Let me check real quick,... Nope, were good

[Mattr567]

Just unpacked my pingmaster, What an experience. Mattr wasnt kidding, its so cool to unbox a NIB product from 25+ years ago.

Cool man! What do you think of it?

[mike52787]

Just unpacked my pingmaster, What an experience. Mattr wasnt kidding, its so cool to unbox a NIB product from 25+ years ago.

Cool man! What do you think of it?

Its a very interesting board, I love the switches. I cant see myself using it as a daily driver becasue of the strange layout though. Still, thats what I said about The model F XT and I used that for a few months happily. We'll see once I get a converter built, I have another teensy coming across on the slow boat from china.

[alienman82]

removed.

[mike52787]

Just unpacked my pingmaster, What an experience. Mattr wasnt kidding, its so cool to unbox a NIB product from 25+ years ago.

Cool man! What do you think of it?

Its a very interesting board, I love the switches. I cant see myself using it as a daily driver becasue of the strange layout though. Still, thats what I said about The model F XT and I used that for a few months happily. We'll see once I get a converter built, I have another teensy coming across on the slow boat from china.

what material are the caps?

Doubleshot ABS
nice and thick ones too

[Mattr567]

Just unpacked my pingmaster, What an experience. Mattr wasnt kidding, its so cool to unbox a NIB product from 25+ years ago.

Cool man! What do you think of it?

Its a very interesting board, I love the switches. I cant see myself using it as a daily driver becasue of the strange layout though. Still, thats what I said about The model F XT and I used that for a few months happily. We'll see once I get a converter built, I have another teensy coming across on the slow boat from china.

Lol the F XT is wayy worse of a layout.

[mike52787]

Just unpacked my pingmaster, What an experience. Mattr wasnt kidding, its so cool to unbox a NIB product from 25+ years ago.

Cool man! What do you think of it?

Its a very interesting board, I love the switches. I cant see myself using it as a daily driver becasue of the strange layout though. Still, thats what I said about The model F XT and I used that for a few months happily. We'll see once I get a converter built, I have another teensy coming across on the slow boat from china.

Lol the F XT is wayy worse of a layout.

Wasnt too bad for me, I got used to it very quickly.

[klennkellon]

Yes, nice keycaps for Alps-mount switches

This is true but TaiHao makes a few doubleshot sets and iirc TaiHao are pretty solid for the price.

[fohat.digs]

Yes, nice keycaps for Alps-mount switches

This is true but TaiHao makes a few doubleshot sets

It is too bad that they make them for modern keyboards but not vintage. This one was OK except for Caps Lock and space bar.

[Norman_the_Owl]

Tai hao are ugly as hell though. The windows logo they use gives me cancer. I wish they would include more than a standard layout too.

[alh84001]

I'd say it was Dell's, or rather Alps' "fault" here with that stepped caps lock key, as there were already some vintage boards with non-stepped caps lock key.
Case in point - I have to make a choice to either mod the Omnikey 101 plate/PCB further or mod a granite caps lock keycap. There's never enough time for me to get to it, though.

[Norman_the_Owl]

I also just unboxed a pingmaster. Good lord, they really do ping a lot. I bought two, will have to make an adapter. The layout seems pretty workable, just have to really get used to the backspace

I'd say it was Dell's, or rather Alps' "fault" here with that stepped caps lock key, as there were already some vintage boards with non-stepped caps lock key.
Case in point - I have to make a choice to either mod the Omnikey 101 plate/PCB further or mod a granite caps lock keycap. There's never enough time for me to get to it, though.

I'm personally modding an omnikey 101 to accept a granite capslock. Seems easy enough to me, there are just some traces in the way. I'll report back when i'm closer to being done.

[alh84001]

Yeah, I was thinking about that too, but two things are holding me back:
- I just got the plate powder coated, and making the cut would obviously either mean another round of sanding and painting, or doing a touch up
- following E3E's advice, I don't want to risk drilling the PCB that old, especially with traces nearby

[fublamchu]

In your guys' opinion, are the Cream Dampened ALPS that come with AEK II's significantly better or worse than Orange ALPS?

[Wingpad]

In your guys' opinion, are the Cream Dampened ALPS that come with AEK II's significantly better or worse than Orange ALPS?

I didn't spend a whole lot of time typing on them but, from my limited experience, they're just different. The dampening really changes the way they feel and some people prefer it. The tactile plate in Cream Damped switches is also rather different than the ones found in Orange ALPS (possibly due to inferior materials) and, consequently, the tactility is not as sharp. Finally, Cream Damped switches are heavier than Orange ALPS.

In my opinion, they're significantly worse; however, if sound (or rather the lack of it thereof) is important to you, your mileage may vary. Last I checked, there is still a "cult" that favors the Cream Damped switches over their Orange counterparts.

[mike52787]

In your guys' opinion, are the Cream Dampened ALPS that come with AEK II's significantly better or worse than Orange ALPS?

Orange is better imho, cream damped's tactility feels rough to me, not sure why. half dampened linear modded creams are dank though.

[E3E]

The only upside to damped creams and damped whites I see is the possibility of using the sliders in other switches to quiet them a bit, though that always feels a little wrong to me. One, the clack of Alps is some of the best around, and two, putting them into exotic switches like SKCM Green and Brown feels like sacrilege.

But that does bring them even closer to Topre, I have to say.

[Hypersphere]

Undamped Alps sound and feel better than damped Alps to me. I have a NeXT non-ADB board with undamped cream Alps -- much nicer than damped cream by a long shot.

One place I have used a damped slider is on the Spacebar switch. I used a slider from a Matias Quiet switch. This transplant helps quiet Spacebar noise quite a lot. However, for all other keys, I prefer undamped Alps.

[chyros]

In your guys' opinion, are the Cream Dampened ALPS that come with AEK II's significantly better or worse than Orange ALPS?

Significantly worse. Orange Alps are easily among the best tactile switches ever made. Cream damped isn't bad, but orange is just amazing (if you manage to find some in excellent condition).

[mike52787]

In your guys' opinion, are the Cream Dampened ALPS that come with AEK II's significantly better or worse than Orange ALPS?

Significantly worse. Orange Alps are easily among the best tactile switches ever made. Cream damped isn't bad, but orange is just amazing (if you manage to find some in excellent condition).

Speaking of the best tactile alps ever made, your little care package of switches is going out today! prepare to experience SKCM creams!

[Norman_the_Owl]

Yeah, I was thinking about that too, but two things are holding me back:
- I just got the plate powder coated, and making the cut would obviously either mean another round of sanding and painting, or doing a touch up
- following E3E's advice, I don't want to risk drilling the PCB that old, especially with traces nearby

My thought was worst case i'll just bodge the traces with wires. That's probably what it's going to come to anyway. It's not like this board cost me more than 30 bucks anyway, so i don't mind either way.

[Hypersphere]

Two questions:

1. FrankenAlps. Is there a post somewhere of a systematic comparison of swapping parts among Alps and Alps clones (such as Monterey and Matias)? It would be useful to know which swaps are possible, which are not possible, and people's impressions of the results.

At this time, I am mostly interested in swaps that are possible among switches that are still soldered in place. Switches available to me include the following varieties of Alps and Alps clones: black, blue, brown, cream damped, cream undamped green, Matias Click, Matias Quiet, Monterey blue, orange, salmon, white.

For example, what are some ways of generating a "ghetto blue" by swapping parts into white Alps that are already soldered into a keyboard? (So that the bottom housing and switchplate of the white Alps would have to stay put, but the slider and tactile/click leaf could be exchanged, and in some cases, the spring and top housing might be swapped out). (I have found that blue springs are shorter than white springs, for example).

2. RattlyAlps. This is a crazy OCD first-world-problem sort of question, but what factors determine the amount of noise from lightly brushing one's fingertips horizontally along a row of keys on an Alps (or other type) of keyboard? I notice that my KBP V60 with Matias Click switches is very noisy in this regard, as is my Focus 2001 with white Alps. Keyboards that are substantially quieter when doing this maneuver include my Leading Edge with blue Alps,  Northgate Omnikey 101 with white Alps, and KBP V60 with Matias Quiet switches. Although it is not an Alps board, the quietest keyboard in this test thus far is my HHKB with 45g Topre switches that has been lubed and fitted with Silencing Rings. At first, I thought that a higher noise level correlated with the type of switch and the degree of wobble, but it seems to be a complex function of many variables, including the overall build quality/solidity of the keyboard. Looks like I might have answered my own question, but I would be interested in seeing other people's views on this.

[mike52787]

Typing this on my pingmaster! feels good man. I built myself a converter and used TMK and the online editor to make a sane layout for this beast. I make alot of mistakes on this board, but im sure I can get used to this. It feels so smooth.

[mike52787]

Oh yeah, word to the wise, dont type on the pingmaster with the volume all the way up on the beeper unless you want to wake up your family

[Hypersphere]

I plan to convert my Pingmaster in the not-too-distant future. Suggestions welcome on where to source keycaps for the zones that currently have relegendable keys. For example, I am thinking of moving the num pad to the far right and putting the nav island in the middle section that is currently set up for a num pad.

[mike52787]

I plan to convert my Pingmaster in the not-too-distant future. Suggestions welcome on where to source keycaps for the zones that currently have relegendable keys. For example, I am thinking of moving the num pad to the far right and putting the nav island in the middle section that is currently set up for a num pad.

Exactly what I did with mine. why do you need keycaps? If you touch type does it really matter if youre hitting a relegendable?

[chyros]

In your guys' opinion, are the Cream Dampened ALPS that come with AEK II's significantly better or worse than Orange ALPS?

Significantly worse. Orange Alps are easily among the best tactile switches ever made. Cream damped isn't bad, but orange is just amazing (if you manage to find some in excellent condition).

Speaking of the best tactile alps ever made, your little care package of switches is going out today! prepare to experience SKCM creams!

[Mattr567]

In your guys' opinion, are the Cream Dampened ALPS that come with AEK II's significantly better or worse than Orange ALPS?

Significantly worse. Orange Alps are easily among the best tactile switches ever made. Cream damped isn't bad, but orange is just amazing (if you manage to find some in excellent condition).

Speaking of the best tactile alps ever made, your little care package of switches is going out today! prepare to experience SKCM creams!

Very curious to see what you opinion is on them. To me SKCM Cream is miles ahead of Orange imho. More snappy and with a sharper tactile bump.

Favourites;
Clicky: SKCM Blue
Tactile: SKCM Cream
Linear SKCL Green

Really the only switch I haven't tried is SKCL Brown and Gray. Gray is pretty much the same as SKCL Cream (which I have) but am curious myself to see how SKCL Brown is.

[E3E]

Very curious to see what you opinion is on them. To me SKCM Cream is miles ahead of Orange imho. More snappy and with a sharper tactile bump.

Favourites;
Clicky: SKCM Blue
Tactile: SKCM Cream
Linear SKCL Green

Really the only switch I haven't tried is SKCL Brown and Gray. Gray is pretty much the same as SKCL Cream (which I have) but am curious myself to see how SKCL Brown is.

SKCM Creams are definitely my favorite standard tactile Alps switch. My line-up is like this:

Clicky: SKCM Blue
Tactile: SKCM Cream and SKCM Green
Linear: SKCL Green and SKCL Brown

SKCL Brown has a sort of cushion to it that's really amazing to me. It might just be the Cherry profile FAME caps on my NCR that make them feel that much better, but as a result, they are a favorite.

Typing on SKCL Greens in my timeless Hammer Alps 60% and it never gets old. Light, crisp, and smooth. Taking this board out and seeing the backlighting always gets me. I love it.
 
About SKCL Cream: I feel like they are similar to SKCL Brown, but I've still been too lazy to desolder my Bondwell 8T Pro laptop to get them loose to try in one of my boards, so I don't have the best impression of them.

SKCM Green, in my experience with them, feel best in the Xerox boards they come in. They also feel terrible with any binding. Putting salmon tops on the 6085's switches helped immensely on that one. 
 
SKCM Brown and Green felt terrible in my FMJ custom 60% with a carbon fiber plate. Just way too stiff and the sound in that case is still something that turns me off. I don't take out the NIB 6085 with browns often, but they do feel very slick when I toy with the board.

[alienman82]

removed.

[MandrewDavis]

Get Out_{we know you like Browns}

[alienman82]

removed.

[Mattr567]

Very curious to see what you opinion is on them. To me SKCM Cream is miles ahead of Orange imho. More snappy and with a sharper tactile bump.

Favourites;
Clicky: SKCM Blue
Tactile: SKCM Cream
Linear SKCL Green

Really the only switch I haven't tried is SKCL Brown and Gray. Gray is pretty much the same as SKCL Cream (which I have) but am curious myself to see how SKCL Brown is.

SKCM Creams are definitely my favorite standard tactile Alps switch. My line-up is like this:

Clicky: SKCM Blue
Tactile: SKCM Cream and SKCM Green
Linear: SKCL Green and SKCL Brown

SKCL Brown has a sort of cushion to it that's really amazing to me. It might just be the Cherry profile FAME caps on my NCR that make them feel that much better, but as a result, they are a favorite.

Typing on SKCL Greens in my timeless Hammer Alps 60% and it never gets old. Light, crisp, and smooth. Taking this board out and seeing the backlighting always gets me. I love it.
 
About SKCL Cream: I feel like they are similar to SKCL Brown, but I've still been too lazy to desolder my Bondwell 8T Pro laptop to get them loose to try in one of my boards, so I don't have the best impression of them.

SKCM Green, in my experience with them, feel best in the Xerox boards they come in. They also feel terrible with any binding. Putting salmon tops on the 6085's switches helped immensely on that one. 
 
SKCM Brown and Green felt terrible in my FMJ custom 60% with a carbon fiber plate. Just way too stiff and the sound in that case is still something that turns me off. I don't take out the NIB 6085 with browns often, but they do feel very slick when I toy with the board.

God, sounds like you are dying for a Xerox USB conversion. Better get Hasu on the case.

[E3E]

God, sounds like you are dying for a Xerox USB conversion. Better get Hasu on the case.

Oh yes, I'd use one as a daily driver in rotation for sure, dude. Wingpad mentioned being able to help me out. I've talked to him a little bit about it. WE SHALL SEE. It'd be a dream though.

[alh84001]

My thought was worst case i'll just bodge the traces with wires. That's probably what it's going to come to anyway. It's not like this board cost me more than 30 bucks anyway, so i don't mind either way.

Ah yes, you Americans can get spoiled sometimes But it's not just the price for me. It's a lottery with Omnikeys because you never know how hard it will be to separate the PCB and the plate, so this one I have is pretty precious to me.

Do any of you have a favourite ghetto alps? It'd be interesting to see how all those linears would feel with white click leaf or black/salmon tactile leaf (and non-linear top housing obviously).

[E3E]

I can't imagine the feel of linears with SKCM tops being all that different, or linearized SKCM being that different from lienars for that matter. I mean, my only guess is that it might not be as solid, but it's not like the recess for the LED stabilizes the slider AFAIK, just the rails.
 
The symmetrical sliders on early linears are interesting as well, but I feel like most of this is trivial when it comes to Alps. It's hard to say really. I'd always prefer using actual SKCLs over linearized just because the alternative feels cheapened to me.

I'm picky I guess.

[alh84001]

Just changing the top housing, I agree. But i wonder if using SKCL green / SKCM white combo would be closer to blue alps.

[klennkellon]

Quick question, can matias clicky and quiet click be modded to be linears? I was thinking about getting Matias Linears and Sprit's springs, but if I can just take out the leafs I could just use a 60g linear

Yes, but beware that Matias and other simplified Alps are annoying as hell to put back together. The contacts are like paper and if you don't put the top on just right you'll squish it up.

[mike52787]

Just changing the top housing, I agree. But i wonder if using SKCL green / SKCM white combo would be closer to blue alps.

Its not quite like blue alps, but its a really different feel. light, pingy, clicky, and super smooth. sounds bassier than white alps too, could be the slider material or the switchplate.

[chyros]

Very curious to see what you opinion is on them. To me SKCM Cream is miles ahead of Orange imho. More snappy and with a sharper tactile bump.

Favourites;
Clicky: SKCM Blue
Tactile: SKCM Cream
Linear SKCL Green

Really the only switch I haven't tried is SKCL Brown and Gray. Gray is pretty much the same as SKCL Cream (which I have) but am curious myself to see how SKCL Brown is.

SKCM Creams are definitely my favorite standard tactile Alps switch. My line-up is like this:

Clicky: SKCM Blue
Tactile: SKCM Cream and SKCM Green
Linear: SKCL Green and SKCL Brown

SKCL Brown has a sort of cushion to it that's really amazing to me. It might just be the Cherry profile FAME caps on my NCR that make them feel that much better, but as a result, they are a favorite.

Typing on SKCL Greens in my timeless Hammer Alps 60% and it never gets old. Light, crisp, and smooth. Taking this board out and seeing the backlighting always gets me. I love it.
 
About SKCL Cream: I feel like they are similar to SKCL Brown, but I've still been too lazy to desolder my Bondwell 8T Pro laptop to get them loose to try in one of my boards, so I don't have the best impression of them.

SKCM Green, in my experience with them, feel best in the Xerox boards they come in. They also feel terrible with any binding. Putting salmon tops on the 6085's switches helped immensely on that one. 
 
SKCM Brown and Green felt terrible in my FMJ custom 60% with a carbon fiber plate. Just way too stiff and the sound in that case is still something that turns me off. I don't take out the NIB 6085 with browns often, but they do feel very slick when I toy with the board.

My SKCM neon green Wang doesn't bind at all afaik. Some of your Xeroxes are really clean though iirc, right?

[E3E]

My SKCM neon green Wang doesn't bind at all afaik. Some of your Xeroxes are really clean though iirc, right?

Yeah, it was only the 6085 that had this issue, which is strange. I've mentioned it before, but it didn't have worn key caps and the switches were absolutely clean, but the switch tops were definitely causing the issue. When I replaced them with salmon switch tops from another board, they were just fine. Yeah, the DocuTechs are all smooth, despite there being dirt in some of the switches when I dusted them (all 333 of them   ). None of them have binding issues at all and feel smooth.
 
The reason why I wasn't a fan of the SKCM Greens, SKCM Browns, and SKCM Ambers in the FMJ w/ carbon fiber plate is because of the rigid plate intensifying the tactile feedback to an annoying degree, especially on the bottom out. It just felt so harsh when bottoming out on those switches.

Being that the Xerox was pretty much designed around the SKCM Browns and Greens, they really do feel quite nice in those boards.

[Hypersphere]

I plan to convert my Pingmaster in the not-too-distant future. Suggestions welcome on where to source keycaps for the zones that currently have relegendable keys. For example, I am thinking of moving the num pad to the far right and putting the nav island in the middle section that is currently set up for a num pad.

Exactly what I did with mine. why do you need keycaps? If you touch type does it really matter if youre hitting a relegendable?

Would you like your Pingmaster as much if all the keys were relegendable? For me, there are two main reasons for "real" keycaps: aesthetics and feel. Relegendables fail on both counts. (Plus sometimes I need to sneak a peak at the legend, just to be sure!).

[mike52787]

I plan to convert my Pingmaster in the not-too-distant future. Suggestions welcome on where to source keycaps for the zones that currently have relegendable keys. For example, I am thinking of moving the num pad to the far right and putting the nav island in the middle section that is currently set up for a num pad.

Exactly what I did with mine. why do you need keycaps? If you touch type does it really matter if youre hitting a relegendable?

Would you like your Pingmaster as much if all the keys were relegendable? For me, there are two main reasons for "real" keycaps: aesthetics and feel. Relegendables fail on both counts. (Plus sometimes I need to sneak a peak at the legend, just to be sure!).

Very true, But cruciform alps mount caps with the correct size, profile and legends are probably impossible to find. The pingmaster can be converted to an hhkb layout easily, So youll be right at home there. If correct caps do surface, you know all of us pingmaster owners will want them. but for now it looks like we'll just have to rely on relegendables.

[Hypersphere]

Regarding the "favorite Alps switch" subthread, mine is currently white Alps. This choice is highly influenced by the keyboard that houses the switch. I am typing now on a Northgate Omnikey 101 with white Alps, which thus far gives me the best typing experience over my other keyboards with various flavors (colors) of Alps switches. This choice is of course subject to change after I finish refurbishing the Alps-switch keyboards that are waiting in the wings.

[mike52787]

Regarding the "favorite Alps switch" subthread, mine is currently white Alps. This choice is highly influenced by the keyboard that houses the switch. I am typing now on a Northgate Omnikey 101 with white Alps, which thus far gives me the best typing experience over my other keyboards with various flavors (colors) of Alps switches. This choice is of course subject to change after I finish refurbishing the Alps-switch keyboards that are waiting in the wings.

To be fair, any alps switch is only as good as the chasis it is mounted in. I would personally rather use white alps mounted in an Omnikey rather than blue alps mounted in a LE DC-2014. I feel that any SKCL/M alps switch (with the possible exception of black) will feel better when mounted in a high quality metal backed board than a lesser built board. Kindof like IBM Model M BS feels better than IBM Model M2 BS.

[Wingpad]

God, sounds like you are dying for a Xerox USB conversion. Better get Hasu on the case.

Oh yes, I'd use one as a daily driver in rotation for sure, dude. Wingpad mentioned being able to help me out. I've talked to him a little bit about it. WE SHALL SEE. It'd be a dream though.

I'm certainly going to give it a shot, I'm no hasu but my background is in electrical engineering and embedded programming

Just changing the top housing, I agree. But i wonder if using SKCL green / SKCM white combo would be closer to blue alps.

Its not quite like blue alps, but its a really different feel. light, pingy, clicky, and super smooth. sounds bassier than white alps too, could be the slider material or the switchplate.

Yeah, they're quite cool. I'd consider building a proper board out of them at some point.

As for me, favorite Alps switches are currently:
Clicky: SKCM Blues
Tactile: SKCM Brown/Orange
Linear: SKCL Greens

If this isn't limited to Alps, replace Clicky with Capacitive Buckling Springs and Linear with Gateron Linear Clears. While the latter is almost certainly sacrilege, sometimes all you need is a plunger and a spring )

In other news, I cut two prototypes for my AT101W plate in acrylic and quickly came to realize it sucks for making full-size plates; I have all the measurements right it's just very prone to cracking. Worse yet, unless I got 5+ people interested in having one fabbed, having a plate cut out of steel would cost over $100. Realizing that DSA Light Cycle will have all of the compatibility options I could ever dream of, I decided to start working on designing a custom board to accomadate them. Here is what I currently have in mind (keep in mind, some of the labels are not accurate):

This layout would be compact enough that I could easily have it fabbed in steel and would be able roll my own PCB for it.

[Hypersphere]

Have you tried glass fiber and/or carbon fiber?

[Wingpad]

Have you tried glass fiber and/or carbon fiber?

I'm quite loathe to try them because of E3E's experience with them:

The reason why I wasn't a fan of the SKCM Greens, SKCM Browns, and SKCM Ambers in the FMJ w/ carbon fiber plate is because of the rigid plate intensifying the tactile feedback to an annoying degree, especially on the bottom out. It just felt so harsh when bottoming out on those switches.