Alps Appreciation Thread

[Mattr567]

Cool.

So the plan is to sell my G80-11800, 101 SKCM White Damp and 110 MX Blues to buy the board, and a KBP V80 MTS to put the switches in. Additionally a White/Blue Tai Hao DS set (can come with the V80 by default). Then after sell off the original Matias's to make up for more. I should then be about $20-50 in the hole. Not bad at all

So in the end I will have a SKCL Amber 80%. In the future I could always add a blue tex case to make it even cooler but that's pricey.

[E3E]

Looks like bid for it has started. Please don't tell me you bid on it already, Mattr. It's such poor taste to bid on something so early in.

[Mattr567]

Looks like bid for it has started. Please don't tell me you bid on it already, Mattr. It's such poor taste to bid on something so early in.

Nope, not me.

[mike52787]

Blue alps???
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Starrise-Computer-Company-Click-Key-Keyboard-PC-XT-AT-Original-Box-/182295768598?hash=item2a71acae16:g:ZDMAAOSwLF1X68Kz

[MandrewDavis]

I saw the Tandem board on eBay too, was under the impression that only the spacebar was SKCL Amber.

[E3E]

Blue alps???
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Starrise-Computer-Company-Click-Key-Keyboard-PC-XT-AT-Original-Box-/182295768598?hash=item2a71acae16:g:ZDMAAOSwLF1X68Kz

There are some different models with the IBM F AT style case and layout that had blue Alps. For instance, the Jameco JE1015 board. I think there's a Computerworld branded clone that's, well, just that. So this could very well have Alps SKCM Blue.

The jameco looks like this:



There are some differences, so I dunno. I can't find pics of the computerworld keyboard atm.

[Mattr567]

I saw the Tandem board on eBay too, was under the impression that only the spacebar was SKCL Amber.

Same. It's the spacebar switch for a couple of other keyboards that used SKCL Brown. That same Tandem can also come with SKCL Brown w/ Amber spacebar and Packard Bell KCLEA907L. I'm the one who wrote the wiki page

Guess it was used for both in this case.

[fublamchu]

I never realized how much I needed tactile ALPS until now 

[Hypersphere]

@Mattr567: How difficult is it to desolder the Matias switches in a KBP V60MTS or V80MTS and to solder in Alps swtiches? I recall seeing a post indicating that there was an idiosyncrasy in the way the switches were soldered in these boards that made it difficult to desolder and/or to solder in new switches.

[mike52787]

@Mattr567: How difficult is it to desolder the Matias switches in a KBP V60MTS or V80MTS and to solder in Alps swtiches? I recall seeing a post indicating that there was an idiosyncrasy in the way the switches were soldered in these boards that made it difficult to desolder and/or to solder in new switches.

The only reason they are difficult to desolder is because they use the abomination many people call lead free solder.

[klennkellon]

Blue alps???
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Starrise-Computer-Company-Click-Key-Keyboard-PC-XT-AT-Original-Box-/182295768598?hash=item2a71acae16:g:ZDMAAOSwLF1X68Kz

There are some different models with the IBM F AT style case and layout that had blue Alps. For instance, the Jameco JE1015 board. I think there's a Computerworld branded clone that's, well, just that. So this could very well have Alps SKCM Blue.

The jameco looks like this:

Show Image

There are some differences, so I dunno. I can't find pics of the computerworld keyboard atm.

Oooh, that Focus is beautiful.

[Mattr567]

@Mattr567: How difficult is it to desolder the Matias switches in a KBP V60MTS or V80MTS and to solder in Alps switches? I recall seeing a post indicating that there was an idiosyncrasy in the way the switches were soldered in these boards that made it difficult to desolder and/or to solder in new switches.

The only reason they are difficult to desolder is because they use the abomination many people call lead free solder.

Yea, their solder really does suck. I already learned that lesson with my V60. At least it survived in a frankenstein sense.

Armed with that experience the V80 will go a lot better. I bought a solder sucker for when I desoldered the SGI and it's much easier to do than braided wire. The wire is good for little touch up's where the sucker misses. I tested it with some lead free solder I had laying around and it works pretty well. Not as easy as the SGI's original solder but where I could get it done without 2 hours of handwiring to fix all the broken connections like the V60.

Just need to win that board

[fohat.digs]

a solder sucker .... it's much easier to do than braided wire.

Even the worst and cheapest sucker is better than braided wire for a process requiring removing solder from hundreds of pins.

I keep the braided wire around for the rare odd circumstance, but it is strictly a back-up method.

PS - "lead-free solder" is an oxymoron

[Hypersphere]

I recall there was something else weird about the KBP V60 and V80 Matias-switch keyboards that made them somewhat difficult to use as recipient boards for Alps switches.

I found the post I was thinking of. It was from XMIT over on DT:

https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/kbparadise-v60-alps-board-switch-mod-experience-t12964.html

I've copied some of the points he made here:

<snip>

3. Every single switch through hole mount is also a via with a pad on the top and the bottom of the board. Who does this!? I had a hell of a time desoldering these because even when the solder sucker appeared to remove all of the solder, the pin was still soldered just a tiny bit to the top pad, just under the key switch and on the other side of the PCB.

4. One pin on every switch is wired to ground - and specifically, to the ground plane. This pulls heat away from the pin really quickly and exacerbates problem #3.

5. Because of #3 and #4, the only way I could get switches off was to pull them off one at a time while heating the legs with a soldering iron. ... <snip> ....

<snip>

[mike52787]

Yet another reason I completely destroyed my v60 pcb.

[PollandAkuma]

Quick question, can matias clicky and quiet click be modded to be linears? I was thinking about getting Matias Linears and Sprit's springs, but if I can just take out the leafs I could just use a 60g linear

Yes, but beware that Matias and other simplified Alps are annoying as hell to put back together. The contacts are like paper and if you don't put the top on just right you'll squish it up.

that sounds awful... i wish i can get complicated alps though. i just don't know where to start and ebay is rather bare

[mike52787]

If you want I can sell you ~100 clean SKCM whites, that should be a good starting place. You can put them in any alps custom or if youre feeling daring desolder a v60 or v80 and swap them in.

[Mattr567]

Yet another reason I completely destroyed my v60 pcb.

Same here. All of that would explain why this happened so often and why I had to hand wire the **** out of it to make it work. If I want to ever make the LED's work I'll have to buy a new V60 and/or PCB. Don't want to touch the thing in fear that it would just fall apart.

For the V80 ill take extreme caution and hope for the best. The V60 was my first desoldering project and I have improved much since then but still **** KBP with these PCB's. Why don't they sell it disassembled as a kit? Less pain and lower cost w/ out switches.

[alh84001]

We have had problems with us bidding against each other in the past and I don't want this to happen here.

I follow ohaimark on ebay too, so it found me instantly, but it is too much of a hassle to ship that thing over here. Now if it were loose switches or an SKCL brown board with an amber or two thrown in, it may be a different story. Happy bidding!

[Hypersphere]

@Mattr567: I like your idea of KBP V60MTS and V80MTS DIY kits. Some time ago, I wrote to KBP suggesting that idea. Perhaps if more people wrote to them with the same suggestion, they might decide to do it.

[Norman_the_Owl]

Hypersphere already knows, but in case you're interested, Tai Hao alps keysets are 20 dollars plus shipping on MD

[mike52787]

Hypersphere already knows, but in case you're interested, Tai Hao alps keysets are 20 dollars plus shipping on MD

what kind of spacebar and modifiers does the keyset come with? The olivetti one looks rather nice.

[Delirious]

Hypersphere already knows, but in case you're interested, Tai Hao alps keysets are 20 dollars plus shipping on MD

what kind of spacebar and modifiers does the keyset come with? The olivetti one looks rather nice.

The spacebar use cherry mount for stabilizer. You have to buy costar inserts to use the spacebar. Here is the link

[Hypersphere]

The Tai-Hao Alps sets are for standard US ANSI modern layout keyboards. The spacebar is 6.25x and the bottom-row mods are 1.25x. If you need a 7.00x spacebar and 1.50x bottom-row mods, you can get these from Matias -- they have laser-printed or blank sets in either white or black.

The current offerings on MD are for Olivette, Dolch, or WoB. MK also carries Olivette and Dolch, but the last time I checked, they were out of stock for the Dolch. Clueboard has the WoB, and you can get a TKL set for $15 and the numpad set separately for $5.

The quality is not bad for doubleshot ABS. I wish they would produce some dye-sub PBT Alps sets (as long as they don't spoil them with their awful antibacterial coating).

[rowdy]

The Tai-Hao Alps sets are for standard US ANSI modern layout keyboards. The spacebar is 6.25x and the bottom-row mods are 1.25x. If you need a 7.00x spacebar and 1.50x bottom-row mods, you can get these from Matias -- they have laser-printed or blank sets in either white or black.

The current offerings on MD are for Olivette, Dolch, or WoB. MK also carries Olivette and Dolch, but the last time I checked, they were out of stock for the Dolch. Clueboard has the WoB, and you can get a TKL set for $15 and the numpad set separately for $5.

The quality is not bad for doubleshot ABS. I wish they would produce some dye-sub PBT Alps sets (as long as they don't spoil them with their awful antibacterial coating).

Maybe they will get the hint eventually - more and more Massdrop buys are excluding the costing now.

[zslane]

I really love the Dolch colorway. I've also become enamored of the Dolch colorway enhanced with a splash of color. In particular, a red ESC key and a red RETURN key (I have two boards with this variant of Dolch DSA on them).

Where might one find these two red keys with an Alps mount?

[E3E]

I really love the Dolch colorway. I've also become enamored of the Dolch colorway enhanced with a splash of color. In particular, a red ESC key and a red RETURN key (I have two boards with this variant of Dolch DSA on them).

Where might one find these two red keys with an Alps mount?

I know the Esc keys exist and were sold on a particular website (was it SP who made them?) but I've never heard of a return key being made in red. You could always try and find a PBT set with the font of your choice and dye them red, though Dokyun has also shown that dyeing ABS is perfectly doable.

[zslane]

I really love the Dolch colorway. I've also become enamored of the Dolch colorway enhanced with a splash of color. In particular, a red ESC key and a red RETURN key (I have two boards with this variant of Dolch DSA on them).

Where might one find these two red keys with an Alps mount?

I know the Esc keys exist and were sold on a particular website (was it SP who made them?) but I've never heard of a return key being made in red. You could always try and find a PBT set with the font of your choice and dye them red, though Dokyun has also shown that dyeing ABS is perfectly doable.

SP's ESC keys aren't OEM profile. Their DCS profile isn't as tall as OEM and would look wrong.

A PBT set would be less than ideal because the idea is to match, as closely as possible anyway, the double-shot ABS style of the Tai Hao Dolch kit.

I pretty much figured I was looking for a unicorn.

[E3E]

I really love the Dolch colorway. I've also become enamored of the Dolch colorway enhanced with a splash of color. In particular, a red ESC key and a red RETURN key (I have two boards with this variant of Dolch DSA on them).

Where might one find these two red keys with an Alps mount?

I know the Esc keys exist and were sold on a particular website (was it SP who made them?) but I've never heard of a return key being made in red. You could always try and find a PBT set with the font of your choice and dye them red, though Dokyun has also shown that dyeing ABS is perfectly doable.

SP's ESC keys aren't OEM profile. Their DCS profile isn't as tall as OEM and would look wrong.

A PBT set would be less than ideal because the idea is to match, as closely as possible anyway, the double-shot ABS style of the Tai Hao Dolch kit.

I pretty much figured I was looking for a unicorn.

Yeah, I realize that SP's keys have a short skirting compared to Alps profile, which is not 1:1 with OEM either as far as I've seen. Hmm...



I'm assuming they made this GeekHack cap too, but it doesn't look -that- off. It matches pretty well with the Wang's caps.

Still, you could take a red OEM-profile key cap or something of a similar enough profile (ie Tai Hao) and do a stem swap. It's not that difficult to do.

[Hypersphere]

SP definitely still stocks doubleshot black on red and white on red Alps-mount Esc keycaps in their DCS profile.

You might also try Fentek. They list them on their web site, but I don't know if they are actually in stock. I also don't know which profile(s) they have. They might also be able to do custom-order caps as well as blanks in various colors.

http://www.fentek-ind.com/keys.htm#.V_1V5eArJjE

A good thing about the Esc key on a full-size keyboard is that it is somewhat isolated from the other keys, so that a difference in profile would not matter as much as it would for keys immediately adjacent to each other.

[zslane]

Yeah, unfortunately this would be for a KBP V60 mini.

Ultimately this isn't that important because I will be putting LightCycle DSA on it by year's end. But I figured if a double-shot OEM red ESC/RETURN pair was obtainable now, it would make the wait a little less painful.

[E3E]

Fentek is the company I was thinking of, but the cap seems lower profile, similar to DCS.

I would personally find an appropriately profiled ABS MX cap and modify the stem if I was dead set on having a red ESC key. I'm not too big on them myself, but I do think they look good.

How're the order numbers looking for the Alps Lightcycle sets; have we reached MQO yet?

[Hypersphere]

Yeah, unfortunately this would be for a KBP V60 mini.

Ultimately this isn't that important because I will be putting LightCycle DSA on it by year's end. But I figured if a double-shot OEM red ESC/RETURN pair was obtainable now, it would make the wait a little less painful.

I thought you only used full-size keyboards (?).

And I thought I only used 60% keyboards -- but here I am typing this on a full-size Northgate Omnikey 101. Alps is so much fun, I have decided to re-expand my horizons.

My KBP V60MTS keyboards are currently populated with dye-sub PBT alphas from IBM 5140 boards with blank black ABS mods and spacebars from Matias. One of them has a black-on-red Esc key whose profile appears to match the IBM keys, but unfortunately I do not recall where I got this Esc key. I've also replaced the RCtrl with a "menu" key from a Tai-Hao WoB set -- this serves as my Fn key for my HHKB-like layout. I have two ways of remapping my V60s -- using the Hasu USB-USB converter or ATNsoft Key Manager remapping software for Windows.

[E3E]

Full-size is one of my favorite layouts. I'm really not too fussy about layouts myself, though I did, for a time, believe that 75% was my preferred layout.

Though I am more a fan of bulky full-size boards thanks to my vintage collection, which is one reason I was more than happy to buy a silent Realforce 104U and keep it entirely as it.

[zslane]

I thought you only used full-size keyboards (?).

There are two contexts in which I use a computer keyboard. First is desktop PCs, with which I only use full-size boards. The other is my iPad, with which I only use 60% boards (Pok3rs) because anything else is either too big or too small.

I wanted to try the Matias Quiet Click switch, so I picked up a KBP V60 mini.

[alienman82]

removed.

[Hypersphere]

@zslane: Thanks for the explanation of your keyboard preferences. I have a V60MTS-Q and V60MTS-C. I like both of them, with some preference for the Click variant. Both have excellent tactile feedback, but the damped Quiet switches feel a bit mushy to me. The Click switches are quite noisy, but they are a real joy to use.

[MandrewDavis]

should I put my SKCM greens in the Green VEA or wait for another kit?

What caps would you use?

[alienman82]

removed.

[E3E]

should I put my SKCM greens in the Green VEA or wait for another kit?

What caps would you use?

either AEK or Focus/Northgate combo

PBT is better for tactile switches, but the Focus/Northgate (OG Tai Hao) setup would look nice.

Yeah, unfortunately this would be for a KBP V60 mini.

Ultimately this isn't that important because I will be putting LightCycle DSA on it by year's end. But I figured if a double-shot OEM red ESC/RETURN pair was obtainable now, it would make the wait a little less painful.

By the way, zslane:

https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=access,cherrymxkeys&pid=dmx_us104_red_tw

This would work for a stem swap and match Dolch very well.

If you're handy with a dremel, it's not so difficult:

You can either use an Alps stem harvested from a junked cap, or build up the middle of a Cherry stem with a filler (I use Plast-Aid plastic repair resin that bonds with ABS plastics and forms a pretty strong mechanical bond with PBT if the surface is prepped correctly), then just use a dremel to shape the Alps stem. It's not too difficult since Alps stems are very simple.

More

[Hypersphere]

Did a ton of typing today on the NeXT. Great board. The NIB SKCM Creams and Alps DS caps are a lovely combo.

I would recommended anyone who has one of these to get a USB converter asap.

I also like my non-ADB NeXT board. Undamped creams are good switches. For me, the drawbacks are the caps and case. Perhaps they look great when brand new, but the caps on mine have highly visible shine and the case easily picks up fingerprints and smudges, which are quite conspicuous and difficult to clean. Functionally, though, this is a nicely designed board. I like the form factor and layout, and I've swapped out the alpha keycaps with dye-sub PBT from an SGI.

Last month, I posted a mini-review of this keyboard, including some pics:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=84629.0;nowap

[alh84001]

I posted this as part of a post on DT, but I think some people here might be interested as well. I received a couple of Sharp X68000 keyboards today, and in addition to SKCL Yellows/Greens and compact SKCLs, two top left keys have an SKCL switch that I can't find anything about. Now, either I'm missing something when browsing through wiki or this variant has not been documented.

The actual color of the switch is something between cream and salmon. Maybe . Or more like a really washed down yellow. I don't know what to call it. Sliders also have some kind of black residue on them when keycaps are removed. And on top of that, they are really heavy. Some 125 to 130 grams of force is needed to bottom them out (tested with coins), so that puts them about the same weight as SKCL heavy greys, if not heavier.

Here are some pics, two grey and one black board

More

[Mattr567]

The black mark's on the top of the slider aka "lipstick" is an indication that it is a special switch. Adds terminal keyboards had the same for spacebar switches but in that case it was red lipstick. SKCL Heavy Cream perhaps? SKCL Cream and SKCL Gray are related. If it's possible to have a SKCL Heavy Gray, perhaps it's also possible to have a SKCL Heavy Cream as well. I would not say its an "SKCL Salmon" that makes no sense whatsoever

Once more documentation is provided and more discussion on what exactly it is I will be more than happy or make a wiki page. Documenting new switches is wayy more important than individual keyboards.

[Norman_the_Owl]

If i were looking to remove heavily soldered bolts from an Omnikey 101, what would be my best bet?

Without damaging the already battered and bruised PCB, preferably

[mike52787]

If i were looking to remove heavily soldered bolts from an Omnikey 101, what would be my best bet?

Without damaging the already battered and bruised PCB, preferably

Heat gun just hot enough to loosen the solder a bit, a screwdriver and some elbow grease. Also you can use a drill and just drill out the bolt, but that is more destructive than the method I described.

[alh84001]

SKCL Heavy Cream perhaps?
Once more documentation is provided and more discussion on what exactly it is I will be more than happy or make a wiki page. Documenting new switches is wayy more important than individual keyboards.

SKCL Heavy Creams would be my choice as well. However, when putting them alongside SKCM creams damped or undamped, thet are visibly darker. Creams look almost white next to them until you put actual whites alongside as well. I'll try and get a better camera and take some better pics in the next couple of days.

If i were looking to remove heavily soldered bolts from an Omnikey 101, what would be my best bet?

Without damaging the already battered and bruised PCB, preferably

Well, the way i did it is, I first used a soldering iron on top of the bolt to make a piloting hole. I don't know how heavily your bolts are soldered, I had only one soldered on that board, and I've seen bolts with both more and less solder on another one. Anyway, then I used a couple of different burring bits with my dremel to first smooth out all the dremel in the screw head and the screw head itself, and to slowly drill into the head as well. Using 3mm wide bits should cut through the head and leave the rest of the head and solder on PCB and bolt in the nut with just enough peeking out to unscrew it. I don't know if regular drill bits would work. I think if using a dremel, they would maybe break, and if using a regular drill, it might be too heavy and cumbersome.  When PCB is separated from the plate when all the bolts are drilled this way, it should be easy to desolder screw heads, as the plate is no longer draining heat from them. I used heat gun, but i think good soldering iron would do as well. The most important thing through the whole process is to be patient. I can't stress that enough. Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

Heat gun just hot enough to loosen the solder a bit, a screwdriver and some elbow grease. Also you can use a drill and just drill out the bolt, but that is more destructive than the method I described.

I also tried using just the heat gun, but the solder just didn't budge.

[E3E]

SKCL Heavy Cream perhaps?
Once more documentation is provided and more discussion on what exactly it is I will be more than happy or make a wiki page. Documenting new switches is wayy more important than individual keyboards.

SKCL Heavy Creams would be my choice as well. However, when putting them alongside SKCM creams damped or undamped, thet are visibly darker. Creams look almost white next to them until you put actual whites alongside as well. I'll try and get a better camera and take some better pics in the next couple of days.

Well, their color is more similar to SKCM Salmon than either SKCM Cream or SKCL Cream:



So SKCL Salmon makes the most sense in terms of color matching, but the fact these might be special (and not common, board-wide switches) might make it seem a bit silly to name it that.

SKCL Amber was a surprise to see across an entire board though. Who knows, there might be some keyboard out there with incredibly heavy SKCL Salmon switches across the keys.

[alh84001]

You just wanted an excuse to post that bondwell pic  )

But more seriously, SKCL Salmon, at least to me, implies a normal switch type. SKCL Heavy Salmon would imply the switch is for special use, but then there's an issue of non-existent normal SKCL Salmon. ARGH. To paraphrase, there are only two hard things in keyboard science - wallet invalidation and naming things.

[E3E]

You just wanted an excuse to post that bondwell pic  )

But more seriously, SKCL Salmon, at least to me, implies a normal switch type. SKCL Heavy Salmon would imply the switch is for special use, but then there's an issue of non-existent normal SKCL Salmon. ARGH. To paraphrase, there are only two hard things in keyboard science - wallet invalidation and naming things.

I totally get what you mean. The color is most similar to SKCM Salmon, but yeah, if it's just called SKCL Salmon, it would likely get confused with the tactile version as well as not be understood as a special switch.

SKCL Heavy Salmon is kind of an adorable name though too. I vote for Heavy Salmon, haha.

SKCL Strawberry Ice Cream 

[Mattr567]

Not a fan of Salmon. SKCL Heavy Pink?

Also ohhaimark just pm'd me on reddit wanting my Lexmark branded 1398601 Model M. He has the rest of the lineup of those quite rare Lexmark branded Model M's (SSK, M15, M13) and is only missing mine.

I smell a deal, rich with Amber