Alps Appreciation Thread

[mike52787]

Recieved my NTC mini, really cool board. It has a plastic plate, which is making me think. Im really contemplating desoldering it and trying to install leds in holes in the plate. Will this be a way to get a backlit alps board with SKCM switches? Will I desolder it? find out at 11. 

on a more serious note, has anyone tried this before?

[E3E]

Recieved my NTC mini, really cool board. It has a plastic plate, which is making me think. Im really contemplating desoldering it and trying to install leds in holes in the plate. Will this be a way to get a backlit alps board with SKCM switches? Will I desolder it? find out at 11. 

on a more serious note, has anyone tried this before?

I mean, if you put the LEDs in the rows between the switches, sure, but there's no way to get a true in-switch backlt SKCM switch. You could definitely put LEDs in any open areas though.

[Mattr567]

I don't really get the bad rap of SKCL Yellow, they are still a good switch. In fact, it's one of the only 2nd gen switches that didn't get significantly worse compared to the first. There only a tiny bit rougher and a bit heavier, and some people might like that second part.

I think it's just b/c SKCL Green is almost more common than Yellow so people just went with that.

[MandrewDavis]

Not worth tree-fidy anyway, but are these Green Alps? I'm colorblind don't have anyone to ask.

[Mattr567]

Yes.

[MandrewDavis]

I don't really get the bad rap of SKCL Yellow, they are still a good switch. In fact, it's one of the only 2nd gen switches that didn't get significantly worse compared to the first. There only a tiny bit rougher and a bit heavier, and some people might like that second part.

I think it's just b/c SKCL Green is almost more common than Yellow so people just went with that.

Thanks for the help! Still am yet to try yellows, I love greens but find them a bit light at times.

[pabile]

does older (pine) non-clicky tactile alps switches have those double bumps that matias quiet clicks and bamboo blacks have?
i was able to read all 86 pages of this thread but could not remember if this was mentioned already... sorry.

[chyros]

does older (pine) non-clicky tactile alps switches have those double bumps that matias quiet clicks and bamboo blacks have?
i was able to read all 86 pages of this thread but could not remember if this was mentioned already... sorry.

Yes, they do, it's caused by the switchplate. That said, I've found it to be more prominent in Matias switches than in complicated Alps.

[pabile]

Yes, they do, it's caused by the switchplate. That said, I've found it to be more prominent in Matias switches than in complicated Alps.

thanks, chyros. any idea why these double bump not felt on clicky variant?


Sent from my LG-H502 using Tapatalk

[chyros]

Yes, they do, it's caused by the switchplate. That said, I've found it to be more prominent in Matias switches than in complicated Alps.

thanks, chyros. any idea why these double bump not felt on clicky variant?


Sent from my LG-H502 using Tapatalk

Yes, it's because clicky Alps switches are more tactile than tactile switches, so you kinda shoot down further when going over the tactile bump. Therefore, you go over the (minute) second bump at higher speed, and you won't notice it as much.

[pabile]

thanks again, chyros. that makes a lot of sense. ...i hope matias could make a switch that could match/align those bumps.

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[chyros]

thanks again, chyros. that makes a lot of sense. ...i hope matias could make a switch that could match/align those bumps.

Sent from my LG-H502 using Tapatalk

Basically, you're asking them to make complicated Alps xD . Many of us here wish that that were the case xD .

[pabile]

Basically, you're asking them to make complicated Alps xD . Many of us here wish that that were the case xD .

it is sad that this is more far fetched than new PBT caps for alps

[chyros]

Basically, you're asking them to make complicated Alps xD . Many of us here wish that that were the case xD .

it is sad that this is more far fetched than new PBT caps for alps

In all fairness, they're called "complicated" Alps for a reason .

[Norman_the_Owl]

Basically, you're asking them to make complicated Alps xD . Many of us here wish that that were the case xD .

it is sad that this is more far fetched than new PBT caps for alps

In all fairness, they're called "complicated" Alps for a reason .

How many parts does a fully disassembled switch have, 12? It's amazing they managed to keep it up so long, frankly

[chyros]

Basically, you're asking them to make complicated Alps xD . Many of us here wish that that were the case xD .

it is sad that this is more far fetched than new PBT caps for alps

In all fairness, they're called "complicated" Alps for a reason .

How many parts does a fully disassembled switch have, 12? It's amazing they managed to keep it up so long, frankly

10-13, depending on the model. The switchplate comprises six parts.

[Hypersphere]

I've discovered that the simplified Matias switch is not necessarily less prone to error or damage than complicated Alps switches. I manged to mangle the contact leaf in a Matias Click switch when reassembling it after swapping out exchangeable parts. Thus far, I have not experienced such mishaps with complicated Alps switches.

[kawasaki161]

I've discovered that the simplified Matias switch is not necessarily less prone to error or damage than complicated Alps switches. I manged to mangle the contact leaf in a Matias Click switch when reassembling it after swapping out exchangeable parts. Thus far, I have not experienced such mishaps with complicated Alps switches.

Weren't all simplified ALPS clones known for being rather hard to assemble because of that? I know that I had a lot of trouble with this on ALPS.tw clones.

[Hypersphere]

This could very well be. I do not have any direct experience as yet with other types of simplified Alps or simplified Alps clones.

This situation reminds me of an opt-repeated quote attributed to Einstein:

 “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler.”

The implication is that if things are made too simple, they can end up being wrong or not working.

I suppose a laudable goal in designing and building any machine is not to make it complicated or simple, but to optimize it.

[menuhin]

This could very well be. I do not have any direct experience as yet with other types of simplified Alps or simplified Alps clones.

This situation reminds me of an opt-repeated quote attributed to Einstein:

 “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler.”

The implication is that if things are made too simple, they can end up being wrong or not working.

I suppose a laudable goal in designing and building any machine is not to make it complicated or simple, but to optimize it.

Having that said, the goal of Matias' switch is not to be dissembled and reassembled by end-users. I haven't dissembled any switch but as I know the best switch I've tried belongs to the ALPS complicated family (the quite common dampened cream) and that the Matias are mediocre, I am feeling a bit hopeless in getting back that keyboard experience.

[Hypersphere]

@Mattr567: It would be great if you could run off copies of your Alps switch sampler and put them up for sale. In any event, it is fun to admire the pics you've posted.

@menuhin: Yes, excellent points! We who mod do so at our own risk. The current generation of Matias switches may be mediocre, but to me at least, they are far better than any Cherry mx switch. I still hold out hope that Matias will introduce improved versions of their switches. In the meantime, or alternatively, there is much to be enjoyed in the Alps world by acquiring vintage Alps boards and refurbishing them and/or using them to harvest switches for a custom build. I am typing this on my Northgate Omnikey 101 with cleaned and lubed switches, and it is marvelous. I only wish it were a 60% keyboard -- for this, I need to find the time and pull together the materials to make a custom board.

[menuhin]

@menuhin: Yes, excellent points! We who mod do so at our own risk. The current generation of Matias switches may be mediocre, but to me at least, they are far better than any Cherry mx switch. I still hold out hope that Matias will introduce improved versions of their switches. In the meantime, or alternatively, there is much to be enjoyed in the Alps world by acquiring vintage Alps boards and refurbishing them and/or using them to harvest switches for a custom build. I am typing this on my Northgate Omnikey 101 with cleaned and lubed switches, and it is marvelous. I only wish it were a 60% keyboard -- for this, I need to find the time and pull together the materials to make a custom board.

That's very interesting to see Mr. Hypersphere (you made those silenting precision-cut discs right?) talking about ALPS but not Topre switches all the time.

It's a very different game you guys play in this thread.
There are the mainstream users or collectors here on GH, mostly on Cherry MX boards, talking about key caps and key sets and lube and mods. Or some of them like Topre more.
There are those very rare buckling springs enthusiasts.
There are a handful of great hardware builders or code developers that build things from almost the ground up, designing every single pieces sometimes if they can't buy them.

You guys in this threads are like... 'Necromancers' spotting dead or undead keyboards, mutilate them, and dissect their switches further to harvest the essence of their vital organs. And by putting parts of these mutilated hosts together, a keyboard is revived and perhaps functions better than its previous glory.

I remember when I was an undergrad, I had to take some courses in the computer science department. And I would find excuses to get in the handful of UNIX labs, and not the usual pizza-aroma-filled labs. All because I fancied the SGI Onyx and SGI Indigo and alike, and their smoothest granite keyboard and mouse. I really enjoyed using them - quiet and tactile and smooth. They have some ALPS there like a few earlier Apple and Dell keyboards as I read from here.

For ALPS, I hope I can play around with more caps though - not the necromancer way. I'm planning to build a JD45 or a 60% from ALPS. And I really want to get some selected colorways on this ALPS board. The only hope right now is 3D printings some of the ALPS-to-MX adapters.

[Hypersphere]

Yes, I think many keyboard enthusiasts go through phases and find something to like about a number of different keyboards, form factors, layouts, switch types, keycaps, etc.

At present, I am obsessed with Alps, especially after discovering that it is possible to modify them relatively easily by opening their tops without having to desolder the switches. As Halloween approaches, it is a good season to think of Frankenswitches!

However, Topre remains one of my all-time favorite switches, and the HHKB is still my all-time favorite keyboard. (This might change when I finally get the F62 replica I've ordered through Ellipse's GB!). [Stated in the interests of full disclosure, despite this being the Alps Appreciation Thread].

[fohat.digs]

It's a very different game you guys play in this thread.

There are those very rare buckling springs enthusiasts.

You guys in this threads are like... 'Necromancers' spotting dead or undead keyboards, mutilate them, and dissect their switches further to harvest the essence of their vital organs. And by putting parts of these mutilated hosts together, a keyboard is revived and perhaps functions better than its previous glory.

You might find considerable overlap between Alps enthusiasts and buckling spring lovers.

While the Alps projects usually revolve around manipulating the switches themselves, Model M/F projects are usually refurbishing the keyboard as a whole.

[mike52787]

Very true. Buckling spring enthusiasts cross over to us alps enthusiasts often. In fact, I am a crossover myself. We both have very limited choices for custom boards, and we both have very limited choices for keycaps. We share the same struggles.

[alienman82]

removed.

[Hypersphere]

but IBM caps are already amazing.  alps different story generally speaking of course

Yes! Similarly for Topre caps, as found on the HHKB and RF87U, among some others.

Oddly enough, today I put a set of dye-sub PBT alphas from an IBM 5140 on my Northgate Omnikey 101 with white Alps, and although the PBT feels better than the stock ABS caps, the IBM caps don't bottom out in the same way. I prefer the sound of the stock caps on the Northgate, and not surprisingly, the IBM alpha caps aren't as good a color match with the F-keys and NumPad keys.

[alienman82]

removed.

[fohat.digs]

although the PBT feels better than the stock ABS caps

In my opinion, the one and only  *GREAT*  type of PBT caps available for ALPS are the old Apple caps with the stupid font and impossible function row.

For people who like blanks, however, just dye them all black and you are set - provided that you like yellow space bars!

[Mattr567]

@Mattr567: It would be great if you could run off copies of your Alps switch sampler and put them up for sale. In any event, it is fun to admire the pics you've posted.

The thing is that for a majority of the switches I only have one of them, like SKCM Brown or SKCL Cream etc so I can't really run off copies. I have extras of Orange, Salmon, Blue, Green Yellow, Cream and White Dampened only.

Also when I first read your comment I thought you meant to run off copies of the pictures and sell them! Lol )

[Hypersphere]

Put them in the replicator!

[Radlife]

Hey everyone,  newbie to alps switches here. I got Hasu's pcb coming and some orange alps on hand. I have some questions. Where would I find a 60% plate? I understand that I would have to get it custom cut, so where would I find the files? I heard that dry lube would help the older switches? Finally, for stabilizers, would a set of matias stabilizers be okay? From here: https://matias.store/products/stabilizer-and-hook-set

Thanks

[pabile]

Hey everyone,  newbie to alps switches here. I got Hasu's pcb coming and some orange alps on hand. I have some questions. Where would I find a 60% plate? I understand that I would have to get it custom cut, so where would I find the files? I heard that dry lube would help the older switches? Finally, for stabilizers, would a set of matias stabilizers be okay? From here: https://matias.store/products/stabilizer-and-hook-set

Thanks

you should have acquired fr-4 non-steel plate from hasu as well. i think his plate is nice. i use it on my alps64 build. it only comes in aek layout though. or... cut the plate from where you got your oranges?

[Hypersphere]

Hey everyone,  newbie to alps switches here. I got Hasu's pcb coming and some orange alps on hand. I have some questions. Where would I find a 60% plate? I understand that I would have to get it custom cut, so where would I find the files? I heard that dry lube would help the older switches? Finally, for stabilizers, would a set of matias stabilizers be okay? From here: https://matias.store/products/stabilizer-and-hook-set

Thanks

Here is a link to open source 60% Alps plates:

https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/open-source-60-alps-plates-t14038.html

You can get them cut by Big Blue Saw:

https://www.bigbluesaw.com/big-blue-saw/big-blue-saw-special-info/waterjet-and-laser-cut-keyboard-plates.html

[pabile]

my at101w has 100% bent pins. wish me luck?

[chyros]

That's normal for AT101Ws. It's not the end of the world, I've desoldered loads like that by now. But good luck nonetheless .

[alh84001]

Hopefully they are all bent in such a way that they point away from the traces. With those, even if you damage the pad a bit, it won't be an issue.

[fohat.digs]

That's normal for AT101Ws. It's not the end of the world

I wouldn't say "normal" but a significant percentage (~1/3) have many or all of the pins bent over.

[chyros]

That's normal for AT101Ws. It's not the end of the world

I wouldn't say "normal" but a significant percentage (~1/3) have many or all of the pins bent over.

Really? I must've had over two dozen AT101Ws (well technically AT102Ws) by now and every single one I looked at had all the pins bent Oo .

[pabile]

I wouldn't say "normal" but a significant percentage (~1/3) have many or all of the pins bent over.

...i am not sure if i should be glad that i was able to acquire an uncommon at101w with 100% bent pins or cry since i wanted is to desolder its switches 

[Hypersphere]

although the PBT feels better than the stock ABS caps

In my opinion, the one and only  *GREAT*  type of PBT caps available for ALPS are the old Apple caps with the stupid font and impossible function row.

For people who like blanks, however, just dye them all black and you are set - provided that you like yellow space bars!

Yes, I like the build quality of the Apple PBT caps. In addition to the other quirks, however, I would add the profile and the D and K homing keys.

Along with Apple and IBM 5140, other Alps-mount keycaps of similar quality (IMO) are those found on the following boards: SGI Bigfoot series, Wang 725-3770, and some Zenith Z-150. And if you like really thin caps with a thick font, there is the IBM P70.

[fohat.digs]

Cry. Bent pins are a PITA. Make sure that you have an effective solder sucker. Work slowly and get into a steady pattern.

The good news is that AT101 boards are fairly sturdy and you can usually get them all up and off without doing too much damage.

[HPE1000]

So I've got enough green alps to make a 60%. What options do I have when it comes to building a board? I also have a set of those WoB alps caps from tai hao.

I would LOVE to get a standard 60% layout carbon fiber plate, but is that something that has been done/might be done? Then I could throw it in a 60% case. Not sure.

[alienman82]

removed.

[alh84001]

One other thing with bent pins, I found it easier to first do a pass without the solder sucker. Just use soldering iron to liquify the tin, and use tweezers to bend the pin upright while tin is in liquid form. After that first pass, go about it the usual way.

[HPE1000]

So I've got enough green alps to make a 60%. What options do I have when it comes to building a board? I also have a set of those WoB alps caps from tai hao.

I would LOVE to get a standard 60% layout carbon fiber plate, but is that something that has been done/might be done? Then I could throw it in a 60% case. Not sure.

if you get one of the universal carbon fiber plates, it will use MX staps which means it's more suited towards SP caps made for alps.  I know that is what E3E did for his couple of 60% builds. 

If you can find someone to cut a custom plate, then you should be able to get any layout / stab type done really. 

If I was building a custom alps 60% I would probably use priginal caps like SGI and maybe dye them all black. 

You have options with alps, it's just a bit frustrating compared to the amount of cherry options. 

Though I do remember E3E stating that carbon fiber wasn't best suited for green SKCL, but I may be wrong.  He can shine light on this when he wakes up haha.

I suppose I forgot about the whole stabilizer issue. I am not firm on a carbon fiber plate though, so I guess any plate works. As long as I can just throw the board into whatever 60% case I decide on and use the tai hao caps if possible, I will be happy.

[pabile]

Make sure that you have an effective solder sucker.

l learned this the hard way. i think i have a fairly good sucker now. (hmm... that didnt sound right.)

One other thing with bent pins, I found it easier to first do a pass without the solder sucker. Just use soldering iron to liquify the tin, and use tweezers to bend the pin upright while tin is in liquid form. After that first pass, go about it the usual way.

i was actually thinking otherwise. what do you think if i suck all solder on first pass then run another pass pushing the bent pins to loosen it? with a cutter perhaps since i dont think my tweezers are thin enough to slide through the pins and pcb.

[Hypersphere]

What are the main choices for custom Alps plates? Big Blue Saw and Lasergist? Which readily available materials and thickness would provide the greatest resilience in an Alps plate?

[menuhin]

So, the more I read this thread, the more I think I am going to forget about Matias' (Quiet Click) switches and instead join the old ALPS keyboards mutilation gang.

My first task for this would be to figure out what ALPS switches I would like. I remember I like the keyboards with those SGI Indigo machines, but I remember trying out a Matias Apple keyboard and I believe I hated it. Something has to do with the switches themselves as well as the keyboard housing and material of key caps.
And there is no ALPS switches tester around in my city.

I know that I don't like switches that are too loud so that I may disturb people, e.g. those in the library or in an office. There are three major categories: clicky, tactile, and tactile dampened, and my related questions are:
How loud are the clicky ALPS? As loud as Cherry MX blue?
How quiet are the tactile ALPS? Are they noticeably louder than then tactile dampened? Will they be disturbing for people and colleagues around?
How would you compare the noise level of tactile dampened ALPS to say, Matias Quiet-Click or HHKB Type-S or Realforce 87U 'Silent'?

There are eight types of tactile and tactile dampened ALPS:
Alps SKCM Brown, Alps SKCM Cream, Alps SKCM Orange, Alps SKCM Salmon, Alps SKCM Black, Alps SKCM Cream Damped, Alps SKCM Green, Alps SKCM White Damped
Are there any of these ALPS that I should particularly avoid? For example, a few posts lowly evaluated the Alps SKCM Black.
Not all of them are listed (on Deskthority) with spring leaf weight ratings, which one are relatively heavy? I like heavier switches, but I also like smooth switches.

I know there is a whole list of keyboard on the wiki, but to cut the search.
What are some of the more common keyboards I can find to harvest switches?

I may be getting the Alpha64 from Hasu as well - I hope that it is compatible with some of those GH80 cases. I'm not even thinking about the key caps now - I like colorways, but it is still hopeless for ALPS right now in terms of color choice. Thanks in advance.

[alh84001]

@menuhin there are two versions of SKCM Black, and pine (earlier and more rare one) is considered to be a very nice switch. Bamboo, on the other hand, is probably one you should avoid. Some guys here dislike salmon almost as much as bamboo black, while other love it. I think I would probably suggest either Orange or Brown, as others are harder to come by, and they are quite different so it's down to personal preference. Damped ones are easier to come by actually, but I didn't type much on them. They are quiter though, so if that's a concern you can try damped creams as well, they should be relatively easy to come by.

@pabile I found out that there is usually not enough soldering tin to transfer the heat to it if you go the other way round. Granted, I don't have the best soldering iron, but I found it easier to do it the way I described. Also, watch out that tweezers or whatever you use for bending pins bag is not sharp/hard as you can scratch the PCB. Usually it shouldn't do any damage, but it's better to be safe then sorry.