Why do people hate hotswap?

[tp4tissue]

Is typo just Donald Trump if he were actually too poor to afford a keyboard, and could only brag about nonexistent boards online?

No, donald trump can't write complete sentences. One would classify typo as computer bound eccentric.

Not unlike TP4, although Tp4 is also Costco bound, and recovering Popeyes bound.

However unlike Tp4 who is poor,  typo = money-ed

[Rob27shred]

Is typo just Donald Trump if he were actually too poor to afford a keyboard, and could only brag about nonexistent boards online?

No, donald trump can't write complete sentences. I would classify typo as computer bound eccentric.

Not unlike TP4, although Tp4 is also Costco bound, and recovering Popeyes bound.

But Trump does make a mean meme! Covfefe anyone?

[ideus]

If you have a board with a plate, you can always try the switches before actually soldering them. If your preferred layout is not available, hand-wired is always an option. If what you want is a switch tester in full keyboard size, a hot-swapable PCB is for you. For some others, trying switches will end when you find something that you like, therefore, it may be a temporary endeavor, that in any case may lead you to put together some more boards. My experience has been trying a few switches, Cherry red, brown, black and clear, then I tried zealios, for the hype, and settled with ergo-clears. In the process I got a Poker and a 65 stock boards, then I tried 3 Nerd 60 PCBs and one 50 kit. Finally my own personal hand-wired. While I have been interested in some of the hot-swapables out there, none of them fits my needs in terms of layout, which for me is as important as the switches. For my upcoming hand-wired I will use Aliaz, after I tried Bronze using the same plate, with no soldering. I feel that I reached my holy-grail with Aliaz. I am sure there would be one or many more switches out there that I may like even more than Aliaz, but I do not feel inclined to test everything.
Bottom line: Hot-swap boards are not for everyone, as most other things. If you like them go for them and dismiss the critics. There would be haters always.

[typo]

Serious question. I ordered some keycaps. Do I have to worry about pulling out the switches when I pull up the caps? If so I am not going to do it. Not looking for problems.

[Maledicted]

Serious question. I ordered some keycaps. Do I have to worry about pulling out the switches when I pull up the caps? If so I am not going to do it. Not looking for problems.

With a hotswap board? Yeah. Some plates are tighter than others, some caps are tighter than others, and some switch stems are tighter than others. If it has no plate at all, I imagine the cap wouldn't budge at all when the switch plops right out. With most of my complicated Alps boards, it seems to me that it can take significantly more force for me to remove just the cap than it usually does for me to even pull switches from the tightest of plates. I don't own any hot swap boards, but I have done enough switch swaps to see this as very feasible when others report it.

[IntrospectiveBeet]

Hotswap boards sound nice until you lose a socket or break the contacts.

[ideus]

Fact: A board is not a switch-tester.Fact: MK Switches are not made to be hot-swapped.
Key boards are made to type on, period. Anything else is beyond their original design intent. Do it under your own risk.

[treeleaf64]

Fact: A board is not a switch-tester.Fact: MK Switches are not made to be hot-swapped.
Key boards are made to type on, period. Anything else is beyond their original design intent. Do it under your own risk.

Yes, no boards were "intended" to be switch testers. However, more keyboards are attuned to it than others. Warning: Use at your own risk. 

[Leslieann]

Serious question. I ordered some keycaps. Do I have to worry about pulling out the switches when I pull up the caps? If so I am not going to do it. Not looking for problems.

Absolutely, this is part of the concern about the low number of swaps.

Not just that but if it comes up with the cap it may not come up straight since you didn't release the clips holding the switch in place before lifting. This can damage the pins, the housing as well as the hot swap socket. And if it's one of the drop in holtites and you didn't solder it in place it could even damage the pcb.

[GlennL42]

Think it's due to the combination of the fact that there is still room for improvement for HS socket and people with different mentality.

Firstly, One problem I found regarding hotswapping on most switches is that hotswap socket (Kailh socket in particular) have a tendancy of bending the switch leg if not inserted correctly, this is due to the fact that majority (if not all) of the modern MX base switches has a 'top' contact pin thinner than the 'low' contact pin, this lead to the thinner leg getting bend quite easily compared to the thicker one. E.g: my current daily driver with KBD6X has a few of it's Kailh socket expanded by bent pin, and it's all exclusively on the same side of the socket, due to the thin leg. While this is not the end of the world since the switches with bend leg will now sit flush with the expanded socket and will work normally, this is still admittedly a problem that is better fixed; don't know about other hotswap socket, they could have the same problem as well. Plus they are no way as secure as soldered switch and can be pulled out when trying to remove keycaps so there's that as well, combined with supposed limited number of swap it is perfectly understandable that someone would not want hotswap socket.

Which brings me to my second point, while people building a budget board may be more forgiving of this kind of problem, people who spend upward of a few grands on their KWEL KUSTOM may be less forgiving of the fact that their pcb is pretty much made with planned obsolescence or just lower lifespan, so my educated guess is that people hate hotswap mostly on higher-end board and stigmatizes them as 'bad' out of either sound reasoning of hotswap socket's limitation or frustration from their experience with hotswap socket.

TL;DR=HS socket is not perfect and I think people's perception towards them depends on the price range.

[Maledicted]

Think it's due to the combination of the fact that there is still room for improvement for HS socket and people with different mentality.

Firstly, One problem I found regarding hotswapping on most switches is that hotswap socket (Kailh socket in particular) have a tendancy of bending the switch leg if not inserted correctly, this is due to the fact that majority (if not all) of the modern MX base switches has a 'top' contact pin thinner than the 'low' contact pin, this lead to the thinner leg getting bend quite easily compared to the thicker one. E.g: my current daily driver with KBD6X has a few of it's Kailh socket expanded by bent pin, and it's all exclusively on the same side of the socket, due to the thin leg. While this is not the end of the world since the switches with bend leg will now sit flush with the expanded socket and will work normally, this is still admittedly a problem that is better fixed; don't know about other hotswap socket, they could have the same problem as well. Plus they are no way as secure as soldered switch and can be pulled out when trying to remove keycaps so there's that as well, combined with supposed limited number of swap it is perfectly understandable that someone would not want hotswap socket.

Which brings me to my second point, while people building a budget board may be more forgiving of this kind of problem, people who spend upward of a few grands on their KWEL KUSTOM may be less forgiving of the fact that their pcb is pretty much made with planned obsolescence or just lower lifespan, so my educated guess is that people hate hotswap mostly on higher-end board and stigmatizes them as 'bad' out of either sound reasoning of hotswap socket's limitation or frustration from their experience with hotswap socket.

TL;DR=HS socket is not perfect and I think people's perception towards them depends on the price range.

I think that hotswap sockets are a technological dead end, an almost entirely superfluous one for people who want to assemble LEGO keyboards, or just test switches and various combinations of switches. I don't know offhand how they might be improved, if at all. The gains would be minimal, and most, if not all, of the problems would still remain unless maybe the switches themselves were also redesigned to be installed more securely. Sockets are great for things like CPUS, RAM, etc, since they're usually put in place once and then secured there well, and aren't flexed, pulled on, tossed around otherwise. It also sure helps that they always use metals that are less likely to oxidize.

Keyboard switches are a much less ideal application for them.

I cobble together frankenboards after trolling online auction websites and thrift stores. I just want them to work every time I go to use them, without maintenance. I'm also cheap in general, so I'll find one hotswap board for less than it would cost for me to retrofit a frankenboard, or just stick with good old leaded solder.

[typo]

I pulled all caps. Went with a very nice PBT set. Not that it did not already have one. I just liked this one. Well actually, I chose from 8 different sets. You all might think it is butt ugly. it is a classic Japanese theme.
Anyways not one switch pulled out. Remember, I crimped the flags, as I intended to never swap them. So then I actually added a bit of solder to the protruding legs. As much as I could. Since I am setup for SMD. Later I tried to pull out the switches with the switch puller. I put a force gauge on the end of the switch puller. I tried 10 random switches. I quit at 100 pounds of force. Well, I guess it is safe to say it is now at least as strong as a fully soldered board and they are no longer swappable. Of course no one will believe me as usual but that is fine. I am also loving the heck out of my DIY wrist rest. Now I must brag of course. I had mentioned this elsewhere here recently. The local high end cabinet maker said he would charge absolute minimum $750 to reproduce it, probably $1,200 with the stain I used(Lucite). I wanted to love this board. Thought I could never type on it. Not my Topre It is a 67 key I bid $3,250. Korean. Figured it was too cramped. I have used it a week. Now I am hitting 174 WPM at 99% accuracy. Yes, that is very high. I could never hit near that on a full size board. So it paid off in spades. Go figure. I thought it was no good. Okay, start flaming me. Could you at least pick one topic at a time though? Thanks

[treeleaf64]

I pulled all caps. Went with a very nice PBT set. Not that it did not already have one. I just liked this one. Well actually, I chose from 8 different sets. You all might think it is butt ugly. it is a classic Japanese theme.
Anyways not one switch pulled out. Remember, I crimped the flags, as I intended to never swap them. So then I actually added a bit of solder to the protruding legs. As much as I could. Since I am setup for SMD. Later I tried to pull out the switches with the switch puller. I put a force gauge on the end of the switch puller. I tried 10 random switches. I quit at 100 pounds of force. Well, I guess it is safe to say it is now at least as strong as a fully soldered board and they are no longer swappable. Of course no one will believe me as usual but that is fine. I am also loving the heck out of my DIY wrist rest. Now I must brag of course. I had mentioned this elsewhere here recently. The local high end cabinet maker said he would charge absolute minimum $750 to reproduce it, probably $1,200 with the stain I used(Lucite). I wanted to love this board. Thought I could never type on it. Not my Topre It is a 67 key I bid $3,250. Korean. Figured it was too cramped. I have used it a week. Now I am hitting 174 WPM at 99% accuracy. Yes, that is very high. I could never hit near that on a full size board. So it paid off in spades. Go figure. I thought it was no good. Okay, start flaming me. Could you at least pick one topic at a time though? Thanks

Wow, 174 wpm? That is really good. No wonder you like to type long messages

[typo]

Well first of all I was amazed myself. At first I could not type whatsoever on this thing. Add to that on a full size I am about 140-ish WPM with some typo's. After a week on this I am so proficient even I am astounded. Yes, it is not like it took me long to write that 140 or so is not bad. A lot of people can sustain 160. Well, not a lot. Some. I was honestly pretty amazed. Now I am honestly not being a jerk as in the post above. I was actually humbled at what had transpired. It went from unusable in my hands to nearly unheard of. This very odd because I am not that fast on my HHKB's. Although I love these switches. Squirting in the solder was true. I figure anyone with an SMD rig could do so. So really don't fret about HS. Everything else I mentioned above was indeed factual. I just phrased it in such a manner as to be inflammatory. On purpose. Since people are ganging up on me. I wish those of you whom are doing so would just stop it already.

I will mention humbly, and not in a bragging manner I have honestly never seen a board this nicely built. I figure the kit was probably about a grand maybe. You know what happens to the Korean's sold out/out of production. I saw one for 10 grand once. Even I have limits. Although I just literally stole a TX87SE off this kid for $250 with shipping 1 week from Korea! So it balances out. I am going to build it a little later. Anyways without trying to forcibly brag. I am rather pleased with this even though I paid a price. Those are my true feelings without trying to be a jerk. I guess I would say this is now my best board and my daily driver. I will see how the TX is. MY Topre RGB you all hate me for is not even that great which I guess is the punchline. I apologize for the content of my last post even though it is all factual. Just the tone of it was not polite. I am happy with this Keeb. I really dig my new caps too. Do I have the right to be happy? Thank you for listening.

[Leslieann]

Remember, I crimped the flags, as I intended to never swap them. So then I actually added a bit of solder to the protruding legs.

*facepalm*
Your hot swap hasn't given you problems because you hard wired it!
You can't say it hasn't been problematic when you bypassed the feature entirely.


Which is the other major issue I have with hot swap.
Once you settle on a switch, how often do you change it?  Even with hot swap, that's still a lot of switches, stabs and caps to swap. It's an answer to a problem that really doesn't exist.



Yes, some of you probably do play with them enough but how many of them do you use it and if you can afford all those switches you can also afford a few extra boards or PCBs. More importantly you guys are a minority of a minority of a minority. For most people it's a bullet point on a sales brochure (website, whatever), few will use it more than once. It's a nice idea, just not a very practical one really.

[typo]

100% agree! It was just unfortunate such a nice board had this stupid "feature". I got them in there for good. In fact it might be even stronger than through hole but that is a complete guess. The only issue now is if I ever do need to desolder a switch it will be a bear, Luckily it is a stainless plate so it can take a lot of heat. I did have a question for you guys. About how long do in switch LEDS last in hours on lowest setting, guess? Thanks

[bwolmarans]

I can't speak for others, but putting switches in without soldering and typing away wouldn't be a good way for me to tell if I liked the switches or not.  I actually have to really use the keyboard, the keycaps, and the switches for several weeks to know if I like them or not, vs just thinking I like them only to find out a few weeks later I don't. 

If you have a board with a plate, you can always try the switches before actually soldering them. If your preferred layout is not available, hand-wired is always an option. If what you want is a switch tester in full keyboard size, a hot-swapable PCB is for you. For some others, trying switches will end when you find something that you like, therefore, it may be a temporary endeavor, that in any case may lead you to put together some more boards. My experience has been trying a few switches, Cherry red, brown, black and clear, then I tried zealios, for the hype, and settled with ergo-clears. In the process I got a Poker and a 65 stock boards, then I tried 3 Nerd 60 PCBs and one 50 kit. Finally my own personal hand-wired. While I have been interested in some of the hot-swapables out there, none of them fits my needs in terms of layout, which for me is as important as the switches. For my upcoming hand-wired I will use Aliaz, after I tried Bronze using the same plate, with no soldering. I feel that I reached my holy-grail with Aliaz. I am sure there would be one or many more switches out there that I may like even more than Aliaz, but I do not feel inclined to test everything.
Bottom line: Hot-swap boards are not for everyone, as most other things. If you like them go for them and dismiss the critics. There would be haters always.

[Maledicted]

I am also loving the heck out of my DIY wrist rest. Now I must brag of course. I had mentioned this elsewhere here recently. The local high end cabinet maker said he would charge absolute minimum $750 to reproduce it, probably $1,200 with the stain I used(Lucite).

You can go and buy a gallon of Lucite stain at Menards for $6. Why, in the name of God, would a cabinet maker charge $450 to brush 50 cents worth (or less) of it on a wrist wrest?

[typo]

There are different types of Lucite but no gallon is $6. He is using a certain automotive hard finish that is $150 an ounce. The rest is his labor. He is a master so he earned it. He was very impressed with the job I did and said he would charge $750+ for it. The difference is it took me a month. It would take him 2 days.

[walie]

There are different types of Lucite but no gallon is $6. He is using a certain automotive hard finish that is $150 an ounce. The rest is his labor. He is a master so he earned it. He was very impressed with the job I did and said he would charge $750+ for it. The difference is it took me a month. It would take him 2 days.

go on...surely you must be a man of culture. What other exotic materials do you think you have

[typo]

I have a little piece of the Moon! I really do.

[phinix]

You guy's make me feel bad because by far my best Korean board is HS. Although after the build I have never swapped. Nor do I intend to. I love these switches. Maybe even more than Topre!

I keep thinking that HS is great, but then every time I get this pcb, I actually never swap:)
I guess its good for re-sale purposes.

Oh, and... NOTHING is better than Topre!   

[typo]

Well I think a HS PCB would be very bad but perhaps not a plate. Not sure. I am going to for once sort of agree with Walie! I just made Pandas with a Halo True and Box Black springs. Wow, I like these even better! Darn I soldered the whole thing LOL. This will not be easy to desolder either. When I am sure I prefer the Panda, what the heck. It is just my time. I actually like these better than my HHKB's. I never thought I would say that Completely different. Although some folks like oranges. Others like apples. You can't just say Topre is the "best". Best, as in how exactly? If it is best for you than great. I was sure it was best for me until these new Kailh. Now my Pandas I like even better perhaps. Better enough to desolder it, not sure yet.

[Maledicted]

Well I think a HS PCB would be very bad but perhaps not a plate. Not sure. I am going to for once sort of agree with Walie! I just made Pandas with a Halo True and Box Black springs. Wow, I like these even better! Darn I soldered the whole thing LOL. This will not be easy to desolder either. When I am sure I prefer the Panda, what the heck. It is just my time. I actually like these better than my HHKB's. I never thought I would say that Completely different. Although some folks like oranges. Others like apples. You can't just say Topre is the "best". Best, as in how exactly? If it is best for you than great. I was sure it was best for me until these new Kailh. Now my Pandas I like even better perhaps. Better enough to desolder it, not sure yet.

Get a good electronic desoldering pump if you're going to do a lot of that stuff. Makes it pretty fast. I reserve my judgement of Topre for when I feel them, if that ever happens.

[typo]

I posted a pic and people called it fake. I took it down. Can't win.

[jacethesaltsculptor]

For the majority of people in my office who have a passing interest in keyboards, and want something mainstream enough, a hot swap board fits those needs. (E.G. the GMMK, and the Drop) and overwhelmingly after playing with my big ole switch tester at my workplace, they all bought those and stuck a variety of keys in each of their boards, where they plan to have the ability to switch in the future if they ever get the bug again.

I'm sure most of them won't, as even bringing up keyboards to some of them ends in a conversation like: "Yeah well, I don't plan on spending money on more keyboards" Even if the question I asked was what do they think of my Model M? It all seems to come across as a sales pitch. So for those who aren't too into them, but want a base to work off of. I think it works well.

I'm much deeper in, and can see myself soldering and doing some really cool things in the future. (After I finish my IBM Collection, which is getting quite full)

I see it as a neat feature, though I am dubious if all the Keyboard makers will keep making switches in the MX form factor forever. (E.G. Beam silo, and Hall Effect switches)

I also wonder as to future durability, though my current GMMK I'm typing on right now is doing pretty well. I think I'll need another half decade to say.

[ArchDill]

I like having a hot-swap option. I keep a Tokyo60 just in case I really want to try some new switches. I do not use it much, but I have it haha

[subluxe]

For me it's layout flexibility personally. I love different layouts, and when you have hotswap those options just aren't available.

[NEArvyREAper]

HS shines when ones want to test switches or likes to change often enough that buying new boards becomes a problem

To my knowledge, all of these have a VERY short insertion lifespan, as few as 5 insertions.

Using it as a tester isn't going to last very long at that rate.

I would like to know what your Experience is with HS if you think they only have a 5 times use? Cause Ive had the same GK61 board for 8 months now and have used close to 15 different switches in it and no issues, and that's a cheap crappy HS board ( In my Opinion) Not saying it to make anyone mad. And I bought it for the simple fact it was cheap and got me into the hobby of building my own KB's now, Honestly its all the Purists who ruin a hobby for new people, Just because you like expensive and time consuming doesn't mean someone who is just coming into the hobby wants that right out the gate. Or they can't afford it. These keyboards are impossible to find as it is, Limited runs and group buys are great, But the lower end of the market has next to nothing for options. And surprising as it is, I've talked with a lot of people who are into these keyboards and they say to avoid the forums if you are new, cause people tend to be jerks or snobs about anything you are looking at because it is cheaper. or what ever their ego problems are, HS would open a lot on the market for people to get into this hobby. there will always be people who want the Solder only boards, but new people find that extremely daunting and turn around and buy something from one of the peripheral companies that mass produce stuff cause its easier.

[jseyfert3]

Later I tried to pull out the switches with the switch puller. I put a force gauge on the end of the switch puller. I tried 10 random switches. I quit at 100 pounds of force. Well, I guess it is safe to say it is now at least as strong as a fully soldered board and they are no longer swappable. Of course no one will believe me as usual but that is fine.

Yeah, it's quite hard to believe you didn't shatter the switch, the PCB, or the switch puller, or some combination thereof, with 100 lbs of force.

And now I have this bizarre image in my head of someone standing on top of a PCB to hold it down while they try to deadlift a switch off of it...

[Leslieann]

I would like to know what your Experience is with HS if you think they only have a 5 times use? Cause Ive had the same GK61 board for 8 months now...

I said SOME are rated for 5 times, how long are yours rated (maybe now you guys will see it). I'm betting you never even looked into it until you saw something here.

8 whole months?  Is it even out of warranty yet?

Where did you talk to all these people? Reddit? Little secret, Reddit is just a forum. Discord? It doesn't matter what system you use, it's all pretty much the same, random people who's experience you know nothing about telling you their opinions.   


You can listen to experts (the people who make and test them), the people who bothered to read those spec sheets and know and work with electronics (like me) or you can listen to some random person online with a single post who tells you it will be great because his works just fine despite still not even out of warranty. Do you know why you can't trust forums, because of people like you with a single post count presenting their anecdotal evidence as proof.


Edit:
I just realized you aren't even using an MX hot swap.

[Leslieann]

I put a force gauge on the end of the switch puller. I tried 10 random switches. I quit at 100 pounds of force. Well, I guess it is safe to say it is now at least as strong as a fully soldered board and they are no longer swappable. Of course no one will believe me as usual but that is fine.

Yeah, it's quite hard to believe you didn't shatter the switch, the PCB, or the switch puller, or some combination thereof, with 100 lbs of force.

He is NOT using hot swap, he bent the tabs over and soldered them into the hot swap.
They no longer hot swap, they are hard mounted.

A normal switch held in by just the little teeny plastic clips will typically not hold 100 pounds of force. It's surprising he didn't rip the switch apart, true, but that says nothing about hot swap?

[typo]

I actually pulled it with a winch. I cannot pull straight up 100# myself. You guys have to come to understand I am a maniac. I was truly expecting something to snap. Pretty impressive actually. Perhaps stronger than SMD. Who knows. What I did is heat the legs with solder and quickly push in socket. Continue heating until seated. However I was using very silver bearing solder at only 126 degrees. So not to melt the socket. Funny I took the time to do that then attempted to destroy it. Again, I am pretty out there. I imagine if I pulled a switch on the edge of the plate it would have cracked. So I picked "G". I grabbed the switch by the base with vice grips. So the switch did not open.

Anyways my Grail board is HS I only swapped once and never plan to swap again. I did bend out the pins for better contact and used caig contact enhancer. I am betting it lasts many years. 9 level in switch LED's on level 1 24/7 if you do the math last about 80 years. Lets just say 45 and It is highly likely I shall be deceased due to age. I certainly would not abuse this board. Forget what I paid. I would never get another. I realized I think I confused you guys though. The board I attempted to destroy was a KBDFANS certainly not my Rama Works(which I was just informed as to what it is). I just had the plate and 6 switches. No big investment there.

[NEArvyREAper]

I would like to know what your Experience is with HS if you think they only have a 5 times use? Cause Ive had the same GK61 board for 8 months now...

I said SOME are rated for 5 times, how long are yours rated (maybe now you guys will see it). I'm betting you never even looked into it until you saw something here.

8 whole months?  Is it even out of warranty yet?

Where did you talk to all these people? Reddit? Little secret, Reddit is just a forum. Discord? It doesn't matter what system you use, it's all pretty much the same, random people who's experience you know nothing about telling you their opinions.   


You can listen to experts (the people who make and test them), the people who bothered to read those spec sheets and know and work with electronics (like me) or you can listen to some random person online with a single post who tells you it will be great because his works just fine despite still not even out of warranty. Do you know why you can't trust forums, because of people like you with a single post count presenting their anecdotal evidence as proof.


Edit:
I just realized you aren't even using an MX hot swap.

And its people like you who think just because they have a bunch of posts, It instantly makes you credible,

It is MX hot swap, Just a Kailh socket, And they are rated up to 100 swaps,thank you very much, See you make an assumption and just look like an A$$ with an ego,
15 switches in 8 months is a lot for a new person, Plus all the different comparisons I've probably been through 50 swaps on some of those sockets, And no not Reddit, Or Discord, Friends who have been building their Keyboards for the past 5-10 years or build them for other people as well, Stop being a snob on a forum bud, it does't make you any more credible.  Share your experience, Leave it at that and move on, Chances are no one cares what you think past your own Experience.........

[Leslieann]

And its people like you who think just because they have a bunch of posts, It instantly makes you credible,

Says the guy who had a single post bragging about 8 month old keyboard.


Note:
When I looked the only Gk61 I only saw the optical model, my bad.

[Maledicted]

HS shines when ones want to test switches or likes to change often enough that buying new boards becomes a problem

To my knowledge, all of these have a VERY short insertion lifespan, as few as 5 insertions.

Using it as a tester isn't going to last very long at that rate.

I would like to know what your Experience is with HS if you think they only have a 5 times use? Cause Ive had the same GK61 board for 8 months now and have used close to 15 different switches in it and no issues, and that's a cheap crappy HS board ( In my Opinion) Not saying it to make anyone mad. And I bought it for the simple fact it was cheap and got me into the hobby of building my own KB's now, Honestly its all the Purists who ruin a hobby for new people, Just because you like expensive and time consuming doesn't mean someone who is just coming into the hobby wants that right out the gate. Or they can't afford it. These keyboards are impossible to find as it is, Limited runs and group buys are great, But the lower end of the market has next to nothing for options. And surprising as it is, I've talked with a lot of people who are into these keyboards and they say to avoid the forums if you are new, cause people tend to be jerks or snobs about anything you are looking at because it is cheaper. or what ever their ego problems are, HS would open a lot on the market for people to get into this hobby. there will always be people who want the Solder only boards, but new people find that extremely daunting and turn around and buy something from one of the peripheral companies that mass produce stuff cause its easier.

Myself, and some others, actually don't care about the fancy group buy stuff. I don't yet own a hot swap board because they're actually more expensive than I usually go for, personally. I usually end up getting a second-hand board for close to nothing and desolder the switches and swap something else in. I think you may have misconstrued the intent of some posts in this thread. I don't think that anybody meant any malice towards hot swap boards, just the objective pros and cons involved in their use. I'll get one some day, as a test bed, otherwise, for daily drivers, I want my switches soldered. If you feel otherwise, that's fine. It doesn't have anything to do with snobbery.

[yui]

Myself, and some others, actually don't care about the fancy group buy stuff. I don't yet own a hot swap board because they're actually more expensive than I usually go for, personally. I usually end up getting a second-hand board for close to nothing and desolder the switches and swap something else in. I think you may have misconstrued the intent of some posts in this thread. I don't think that anybody meant any malice towards hot swap boards, just the objective pros and cons involved in their use. I'll get one some day, as a test bed, otherwise, for daily drivers, I want my switches soldered. If you feel otherwise, that's fine. It doesn't have anything to do with snobbery.

the only hotswap i own is a macropad that i 3d printed and wired myself, the most expensive part was the 6 hotswap sockets but they made for a much easier time building the thing, so all and all i may be into it for about 6 to 7 euros including switches. hotswap does not need to be expensive.

[Maledicted]

Myself, and some others, actually don't care about the fancy group buy stuff. I don't yet own a hot swap board because they're actually more expensive than I usually go for, personally. I usually end up getting a second-hand board for close to nothing and desolder the switches and swap something else in. I think you may have misconstrued the intent of some posts in this thread. I don't think that anybody meant any malice towards hot swap boards, just the objective pros and cons involved in their use. I'll get one some day, as a test bed, otherwise, for daily drivers, I want my switches soldered. If you feel otherwise, that's fine. It doesn't have anything to do with snobbery.

the only hotswap i own is a macropad that i 3d printed and wired myself, the most expensive part was the 6 hotswap sockets but they made for a much easier time building the thing, so all and all i may be into it for about 6 to 7 euros including switches. hotswap does not need to be expensive.

That's awesome. I mean a board at least as big as a 60% though, and my idea of expensive is paying $50-80 for some Chinesium board that hopefully supports standard MX switch legs. I say this now as I have already ordered the parts to assemble a hot swap dz60 though.

[KZzzz]

Welp, I can see how divided people are when it comes to their perspective on HS.

I am fairly new to the community, and I just built my first board a month ago. It is a HS 60%, and the whole process is like putting together LEGOs, which I am not ashamed of. To a newby like me, HS is more accessible, and it helps me easing my way into the hobby. Do I plan to use HS anymore? That is a fat "maybe". I agree that the current technology of HS is not optimal, and it may never be good as far as I am concerned. Improving HS would just be "feature-creeping" and over-engineering of a problem neglected by the existence of soldering itself. So HS, to me, is a milestone, a side track, and a lower hill that allows me to observe the actual mountain that is custom MKB. What I am saying is, it is a "gateway" to full customs.

But, why wouldn't you just learn soldering in the first place and build your first board that way to achieve chad status? True, that is a valid thought, and I often question myself like this as well. If HS does not help you obtain an essential skill of building customs, why do it? That is, again, a valid point. I do not plan to rely on the "convenience" of HS in possible future builds, but using HS has reassured me that this hobby is within my reach.

At the end of the day, HS is just a sub-optimal technology that allows filthy casuals like me to sneak into the hobby, and no one should rely on it to build long-lasting keyboards.

As for the person who spent 3.5k on a Korean HS board, I am sorry man, I think you got scammed. (This is my OPINION, correct me on FACTS only please)

[Maledicted]

Welp, I can see how divided people are when it comes to their perspective on HS.

I am fairly new to the community, and I just built my first board a month ago. It is a HS 60%, and the whole process is like putting together LEGOs, which I am not ashamed of. To a newby like me, HS is more accessible, and it helps me easing my way into the hobby. Do I plan to use HS anymore? That is a fat "maybe". I agree that the current technology of HS is not optimal, and it may never be good as far as I am concerned. Improving HS would just be "feature-creeping" and over-engineering of a problem neglected by the existence of soldering itself. So HS, to me, is a milestone, a side track, and a lower hill that allows me to observe the actual mountain that is custom MKB. What I am saying is, it is a "gateway" to full customs.

But, why wouldn't you just learn soldering in the first place and build your first board that way to achieve chad status? True, that is a valid thought, and I often question myself like this as well. If HS does not help you obtain an essential skill of building customs, why do it? That is, again, a valid point. I do not plan to rely on the "convenience" of HS in possible future builds, but using HS has reassured me that this hobby is within my reach.

At the end of the day, HS is just a sub-optimal technology that allows filthy casuals like me to sneak into the hobby, and no one should rely on it to build long-lasting keyboards.

As for the person who spent 3.5k on a Korean HS board, I am sorry man, I think you got scammed. (This is my OPINION, correct me on FACTS only please)

Honestly, I don't think that anyone would disagree with you. Hot swap sockets have a place, and can be very useful within their niche. They're just suboptimal for anything permanent that you want to last forever. Personally, I don't think you need to customize/build keyboards at all to be every bit a part of this community as anybody else, just have a passion for mechanical switches.

I first got big into firearms before keyboards, so my LEGO comparison, and referring to it as assembly and not building (and honestly, even with soldering when it comes to these fancy kit boards) mostly stems with how people perceive putting together AR-15s. Literally everything you need to assemble one can be purchased and slapped together, one way or another. Some of it takes some specialized tools, and some know-how, but not a lot. By comparison, the most you're probably ever going to "build" in that community is an AK, due to sometimes having to basically manufacture your own receiver from sheet steel, press a barrel into a trunnion, drill holes, install rivets, etc, etc. In that scenario, most people never do more than assemble their LEGO AR, if that. If they do, it is minor tinkerer's gunsmithing.

I suppose part of that may be why I'm predisposed to not care about how deep someone may happen to dive into customization, soldering, etc. But I doubt very many people are actually snobby about it all in that way. I think it is mostly just an unfortunate, unfounded, misconception.

[KZzzz]

I suppose part of that may be why I'm predisposed to not care about how deep someone may happen to dive into customization, soldering, etc. But I doubt very many people are actually snobby about it all in that way. I think it is mostly just an unfortunate, unfounded, misconception.

True. Even LEGO builders construct ridiculously complex things. Customizing MKB is a very personal thing, and I doubt there would be no disagreement. Strip down to its core, this hobby is more about the human than the keyboard.

Sorry, got carried away here with ideas.

[Maledicted]

I suppose part of that may be why I'm predisposed to not care about how deep someone may happen to dive into customization, soldering, etc. But I doubt very many people are actually snobby about it all in that way. I think it is mostly just an unfortunate, unfounded, misconception.

True. Even LEGO builders construct ridiculously complex things. Customizing MKB is a very personal thing, and I doubt there would be no disagreement. Strip down to its core, this hobby is more about the human than the keyboard.

Sorry, got carried away here with ideas.

Well, just as the artisan community seemed to be very offended by my genuine confusion as to why they might pay hundreds of dollars for a single rare piece of plastic, which isn't even contoured for typing on, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

If you want to use a Unicomp, I don't think the IBM diehards (myself included) are going to look down on you for it.

If you want to use Cherry, even MX browns, I don't think people who hate Cherry switches (myself included), or see Topre as the second coming of Christ, are going to look down on you for it.

If you want to use ergo boards, I don't think people who don't understand why they exist (myself included) are going to look down on you for it.

If you like Matias, I don't think people who are Alps purists (myself included) are going to look down on you for it.

If you like that $30 Amazon Chinesium board, I don't think people who build $300+ boards (at least I hope not) are going to look down on you for it.

There are always exceptions to the rule, I think, but only from the very vocal minority. I think the only major exception to this may be the hatred towards gaming keyboards, but even then, I don't see a lot of people being venomous about it, just being honest about their keycap, programability, etc limitations.

I think my previously mentioned confusion over rare artisans is a good example of this. I was seriously just curious as to why they cared. I found it interesting. Maybe I could have worded it better, but I can be pretty blunt. I don't mean any offense by it. I think most people who bother to join a forum are the same. Inquisitive, curious, and first and foremost interested in the sharing and exchange of knowledge.

[f1]

Didn't read the whole thread, not sure if this has been said already, but isn't the first post reminiscent of stick shift vs automatic?

It is just a matter of time before hotswap boards will be the defacto standard.

Sent from my smartphone which I have. Cable, charger, everything.

[Maledicted]

Didn't read the whole thread, not sure if this has been said already, but isn't the first post reminiscent of stick shift vs automatic?

It is just a matter of time before hotswap boards will be the defacto standard.

Sent from my smartphone which I have. Cable, charger, everything.

Could you explain your reasoning? I suppose they could be similar in that automatic transmissions are less reliable, with less control over the process of driving, but with less of a barrier to entry?

OEMS, for end-user use, outside of a specific desire to hot swap, are going to keep soldering in switches, and enthusiasts that want something to last once they've selected some of their favorite switches, are going to continue to soldering as well. I don't imagine that hot swap will somehow take over the market in this regard, or even significantly change from how it is now.

Maybe my perspective is skewed, however, as I refuse to drive automatics myself. lol

[f1]

Didn't read the whole thread, not sure if this has been said already, but isn't the first post reminiscent of stick shift vs automatic?

It is just a matter of time before hotswap boards will be the defacto standard.

Sent from my smartphone which I have. Cable, charger, everything.

Could you explain your reasoning? I suppose they could be similar in that automatic transmissions are less reliable, with less control over the process of driving, but with less of a barrier to entry?

OEMS, for end-user use, outside of a specific desire to hot swap, are going to keep soldering in switches, and enthusiasts that want something to last once they've selected some of their favorite switches, are going to continue to soldering as well. I don't imagine that hot swap will somehow take over the market in this regard, or even significantly change from how it is now.

Maybe my perspective is skewed, however, as I refuse to drive automatics myself. lol

I wasn't talking about OEMs, that never crossed my mind tbh. There, profit margins will always win. Look at plasma TV panels for instance. Almost zero are available now. Why? LED happened. A very few people bought an extra panel foreseeing this, myself included.

I was talking about enthusiasts, custom builders, IC and GB pros. If we have only a few who offer hotswap now (Rama comes to mind), 10 years down the line hotswap will be standard. Why? Because most of the drawbacks of hotswap would've been addressed, and there will be enough buyers to cover the extra cost. This extra cost for hotswaps becomes zero over time.

I vehemently refuse to drive an automatic unless there is no other option. But have you noticed how the new automatics learn your driving "mood" in about 15 minutes flat, and hold a gear longer if you pedal to the metal just a few times? "Born on the racetrack" manufacturers are forced to offer, scratch that, encourage you to buy automatics.

Hope this didn't come off as a rant. It is 1 AM, don't know if I've ticked off anyone yet with this.

#stayhomesavelives

Sent from my smartphone which I have. Cable, charger, everything.

[Maledicted]

Didn't read the whole thread, not sure if this has been said already, but isn't the first post reminiscent of stick shift vs automatic?

It is just a matter of time before hotswap boards will be the defacto standard.

Sent from my smartphone which I have. Cable, charger, everything.

Could you explain your reasoning? I suppose they could be similar in that automatic transmissions are less reliable, with less control over the process of driving, but with less of a barrier to entry?

OEMS, for end-user use, outside of a specific desire to hot swap, are going to keep soldering in switches, and enthusiasts that want something to last once they've selected some of their favorite switches, are going to continue to soldering as well. I don't imagine that hot swap will somehow take over the market in this regard, or even significantly change from how it is now.

Maybe my perspective is skewed, however, as I refuse to drive automatics myself. lol

I wasn't talking about OEMs, that never crossed my mind tbh. There, profit margins will always win. Look at plasma TV panels for instance. Almost zero are available now. Why? LED happened. A very few people bought an extra panel foreseeing this, myself included.

I was talking about enthusiasts, custom builders, IC and GB pros. If we have only a few who offer hotswap now (Rama comes to mind), 10 years down the line hotswap will be standard. Why? Because most of the drawbacks of hotswap would've been addressed, and there will be enough buyers to cover the extra cost. This extra cost for hotswaps becomes zero over time.

I vehemently refuse to drive an automatic unless there is no other option. But have you noticed how the new automatics learn your driving "mood" in about 15 minutes flat, and hold a gear longer if you pedal to the metal just a few times? "Born on the racetrack" manufacturers are forced to offer, scratch that, encourage you to buy automatics.

Hope this didn't come off as a rant. It is 1 AM, don't know if I've ticked off anyone yet with this.

#stayhomesavelives

Sent from my smartphone which I have. Cable, charger, everything.

What do you think could be significantly improved about hot swap sockets? Solderless electrical connections have been around forever. They've always had vastly inferior reliability, even in much larger form factors than you can fit inside of a modern keyboard. We've got hundreds of HP desktop computers that need their RAM sticks reseated from time to time. Solderless Xbox Modchips were almost useless within months sometimes. Oxidation, in particular, even if the sockets and/or switch legs were to never wear out and/or get a buildup of junk on them, will always eventually cause havoc. There's a trick, even with gold plated contacts, known in IT, to rub oxidation off with pencil erasers. That can take some elbow grease even on fairly accessible, flat contacts. Assuming you want to bother, how are you going to clean the inside of hot swap sockets? I have gotten some oxidized/worn flash drives working again ... if I want to spend half an hour trying to rub down the contacts with some isopropyl on paper towel.

Some things are just objectively better in certain categories than others, and throughout history we've often hit technological dead ends, where a technology is found to be entirely inadequate, and abandoned, or be perfected, and not supplanted for centuries, like how we still have axes/hatchets, knives, brooms, etc, much like those that we've used for centuries. Soldering has been the best method available for the task, for many decades, longer than keyboards have existed. I can't honestly see how that may change.

If soldering something myself and using hot swap sockets were to cost exactly the same, I would still solder every time I wanted something permanent, and I usually want something permanent.

I actually didn't know that about modern automatics learning your driving habits. My 2012 Sonic (which is manual) is the newest car I have ever driven, besides driving my mom's new Subaru maybe once or twice.

It didn't come off as a rant to me at all, and I wouldn't care if it did. Not even rants should bother anybody if they're respectful.

[jseyfert3]

What do you think could be significantly improved about hot swap sockets? Solderless electrical connections have been around forever. They've always had vastly inferior reliability, even in much larger form factors than you can fit inside of a modern keyboard. We've got hundreds of HP desktop computers that need their RAM sticks reseated from time to time. Solderless Xbox Modchips were almost useless within months sometimes. Oxidation, in particular, even if the sockets and/or switch legs were to never wear out and/or get a buildup of junk on them, will always eventually cause havoc. There's a trick, even with gold plated contacts, known in IT, to rub oxidation off with pencil erasers. That can take some elbow grease even on fairly accessible, flat contacts. Assuming you want to bother, how are you going to clean the inside of hot swap sockets? I have gotten some oxidized/worn flash drives working again ... if I want to spend half an hour trying to rub down the contacts with some isopropyl on paper towel.

Sounds like you have more experience with computers than I do. That said, I've messed with enough old computers to know that sometimes reseating RAM fixes the issue.

I'm curious: Why does RAM have issues, yet the CPU sockets don't seem to have issues? Virtually all CPUs use sockets, yet I've never heard widespread issues about them. Is it just that they are designed better, usually always being some sort of lever actuated locking rather than a spring loaded socket like RAM?

Thinking about it, the lever actuated bit means that the gold plated for oxidation resistance won't scrap off like it inevitably does for RAM sticks and any other friction based contact. Could that be part of the reason?

[Leslieann]

I'm curious: Why does RAM have issues, yet the CPU sockets don't seem to have issues? Virtually all CPUs use sockets, yet I've never heard widespread issues about them. Is it just that they are designed better, usually always being some sort of lever actuated locking rather than a spring loaded socket like RAM?

Thinking about it, the lever actuated bit means that the gold plated for oxidation resistance won't scrap off like it inevitably does for RAM sticks and any other friction based contact. Could that be part of the reason?

CPUs do on occasion but usually only after a massive temperature shift.

Mostly though CPU sockets are just a better designed and better quality controlled, not to mention clamped in place tightly by a heatsink. Meanwhile while ram is sort of wild west anything goes. Their socket design is a holdover from many generations past, not only has it not taken advantage of newer designs and manufacturing methods the manufacturers have had time to cheapen it as much as possible.

[typo]

As mentioned Rama is mostly hotswap. 'nuff said. solderless electrical connections(also mentioned) have been used in industry for years for mission critical applications. All of the new supercars have "manumatic" transmissions. 'nuff said. This thread is so absurd already. don't you folks have anything better to do? I suppose the same could be said of myself but I have not even been here in two weeks. Actually participating in real life. Covid-19 and all. Mainly, who cares? If you do not like it do not buy one. Amazon has great soldered boards for $12. Right up your alley. Yes, they are mechanical. I actually found keycaps on amazon that blow away GMK For $7.99 for a set of 167 parts. They are 8MM thick! That's what is says. anyways what do I care? I like HS. I have over 70 Rama boards...…. Honestly GMK is better I have over 6,000 sets. Before you say no way you have to understand I am richer than Bezo's. In fact I own Bezo's. Let's discuss this.....

[el_murdoque]

IMO 'Hotswap' is more or less an euphemism for 'Solderless'.
The possibility to swap out switches on the fly feels more or less like a byproduct.
When you want a custom setup but you don't have the balls or the ability to solder switches into a PCB, then HS is all that's left to you.

However, I actually made use of it. My Wooting Two came with  a few extra switches. I swapped the caps lock switch for a clicky one, so I feel it when I press that key by accident.